36th Parliament, 1st Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 212
CONTENTS
Wednesday, April 21, 1999
1400
| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
| ST. JOHN AMBULANCE
|
| Mr. Mauril Bélanger |
| ST. JOHN AMBULANCE
|
| Mr. Roy Bailey |
| TONG SUN LOUIE
|
| Mr. Ted McWhinney |
| ST. JOHN AMBULANCE
|
| Mrs. Pauline Picard |
| ST. JOHN AMBULANCE
|
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
| ST. JOHN AMBULANCE
|
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
| NATIONAL ORGAN DONOR WEEK
|
| Mrs. Karen Redman |
| FORUM FOR YOUNG CANADIANS
|
| Mr. Janko Peric |
1405
| NATIONAL ORGAN DONOR WEEK
|
| Mr. Reed Elley |
| MARGARET CAMPBELL
|
| Mr. Bill Graham |
| TRAGEDY IN LITTLETON, COLORADO
|
| Mrs. Maud Debien |
| PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
|
| Ms. Raymonde Folco |
| MILLION DOLLAR COP
|
| Mr. Jay Hill |
1410
| THE ENVIRONMENT
|
| Mr. Nick Discepola |
| FISHERIES AND OCEANS CANADA
|
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
| KOSOVO
|
| Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral |
| SIR WILFRID LAURIER
|
| Mr. Hec Clouthier |
| NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR NURSES
|
| Mr. Charlie Power |
1415
| NEW MEMBER
|
| The Speaker |
| NEW MEMBER INTRODUCED
|
| Mr. Rick Limoges (Windsor—St. Clair)
|
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
| KOSOVO
|
| Mr. Art Hanger |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
1420
| Mr. Art Hanger |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Art Hanger |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Bob Mills |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Bob Mills |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
1425
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mrs. Monique Guay |
| Hon. Diane Marleau |
| Mrs. Monique Guay |
| Hon. Diane Marleau |
1430
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Mr. Rick Borotsik |
| Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
| Mr. Rick Borotsik |
1435
| Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
| KOSOVO
|
| Mr. Monte Solberg |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Monte Solberg |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| INTERNATIONAL TRADE
|
| Mr. Benoît Sauvageau |
| Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
| Mr. Benoît Sauvageau |
| Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
| KOSOVO
|
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
1440
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| PLUTONIUM IMPORTS
|
| Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
| Hon. Ralph E. Goodale |
| Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
| Hon. Ralph E. Goodale |
| FISHERIES
|
| Mr. Gary Lunn |
| Mr. Wayne Easter |
| Mr. Gary Lunn |
| Mr. Wayne Easter |
1445
| MARIJUANA
|
| Mr. Bernard Bigras |
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
| BLOC QUEBECOIS
|
| Mr. Denis Coderre |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Mr. Howard Hilstrom |
| Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
| Mr. Howard Hilstrom |
| Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
| KOSOVO
|
| Mr. Svend J. Robinson |
1450
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Svend J. Robinson |
| Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
| TAXATION
|
| Mr. André Harvey |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| Mr. André Harvey |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| KOSOVO
|
| Mrs. Judi Longfield |
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
1455
| INDIAN AFFAIRS AND NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. Myron Thompson |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| BILINGUALISM
|
| Mrs. Pierrette Venne |
| Hon. Marcel Massé |
| TRADE
|
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
| Hon. Sergio Marchi |
| KOSOVO
|
| Mr. André Bachand |
1500
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| SPECIAL JOINT COMMITTEE ON CHILD CUSTODY AND ACCESS
|
| Mr. Roger Gallaway |
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
| PRESENCE IN GALLERY
|
| The Speaker |
1505
| PRIVILEGE
|
| Government Response to Committee Report
|
| Hon. Don Boudria |
1510
1515
| Mr. Bob Mills |
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
| The Speaker |
1520
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
| GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| INTERPARLIAMENTARY DELEGATIONS
|
| Hon. Charles Caccia |
| Mr. Bryon Wilfert |
1525
| Mr. Antoine Dubé |
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Procedure and House Affairs
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| TAXPAYERS BILL OF RIGHTS
|
| Bill C-495. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Finance
|
| Motion for concurrence
|
| Mr. Richard M. Harris |
1530
1535
1540
| Mr. Paul Bonwick |
| Mr. Gurmant Grewal |
1545
| Mr. Roy Bailey |
1550
| Hon. Diane Marleau |
1555
| Mr. Paul Bonwick |
1600
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| CRIMINAL RECORDS ACT
|
| Bill C-69. Second reading
|
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
| Mr. Jacques Saada |
1605
1610
| Mr. Eric Lowther |
1615
1620
1625
1630
| Mr. Richard Marceau |
1635
1640
| Mr. Peter Mancini |
1645
1650
| YOUTH CRIMINAL JUSTICE ACT
|
| Bill C-68. Second reading
|
| Mr. Jack Ramsay |
1655
1700
1705
1710
| Mr. Richard Marceau |
1715
| Mr. Mark Muise |
1720
| Mr. Chuck Cadman |
| Mr. Réal Ménard |
1725
1730
| PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
| CANADIAN ARMED FORCES
|
| Mr. René Laurin |
| Motion
|
1735
1740
1745
1750
| Ms. Carolyn Parrish |
1755
1800
| Mr. Art Hanger |
1805
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
1810
| Mr. David Price |
1815
1820
| Mr. Antoine Dubé |
1825
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 212
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Wednesday, April 21, 1999
The House met at 2 p.m.
Prayers
1400
The Speaker: As is our practice on Wednesday we will now
sing O Canada, and we will be led by the hon. member for Saint
John.
[Editor's Note: Members sang the national anthem]
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
ST. JOHN AMBULANCE
Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
today marks the 900th anniversary of the Order of St. John
founded in the 11th century with the establishment of a hospital
for Christian pilgrims in Jerusalem.
First aid became an integral part of the work of the order in
England during the France-Prussian war in 1870. The humanitarian
work of the British branch of the St. John Ambulance spread to
Canada in 1882-83 when first aid classes were organized in Quebec
City and Kingston.
We should all recognize the importance of the St. John Ambulance
in providing first aid training to Canadians therefore enhancing
their ability to save other lives and to improve the quality of
those lives.
We thank them for their dedication and for their spirit of
volunteerism. May they continue to serve us long.
* * *
ST. JOHN AMBULANCE
Mr. Roy Bailey (Souris—Moose Mountain, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, during the 11th century, pilgrims to the Holy Land could
find treatment in a hospital run by Benedictine monks in
Jerusalem. In the year 1099, the Order of St. John from which
the modern St. John Ambulance grew was eventually formed.
At 900 years of age, St. John Ambulance is the oldest voluntary
health and welfare organization in the world. In Canada there are
now over 25,000 volunteers, including over 12,000 uniformed
brigade members who donate 2 million hours each year to community
service and treat approximately 20,000 casualties, all free of
charge.
Over 7,000 first aid instructors teach over 800,000 Canadians
annually.
Today we celebrate and congratulate the accomplishments of St.
John Ambulance for its public service. On this 900th birthday,
we wish it success as it goes into the new millennium.
* * *
TONG SUN LOUIE
Mr. Ted McWhinney (Vancouver Quadra, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
Tong Sun Louie, who has died in Vancouver at the age of 102, was
born in Canton and emigrated to Canada 90 years ago, establishing
himself as a prominent Vancouver businessman and philanthropist
and a founder of the Chinese Benevolent Association. His family
includes university professors, medical practitioners,
accountants and financial advisers, all leaders of the
Chinese-Canadian community.
The Chinese-Canadian community in Vancouver encompasses a wide
diversity in language and culture, places of origin within China,
and actual years lived in Canada. Tong Sun Louie's long life
reaches back to the historical origins of British Columbia, and
he may certainly be considered among the early founding fathers
of that province.
* * *
[Translation]
ST. JOHN AMBULANCE
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, St. John
Ambulance is celebrating 900 years of community service. The
white cross of the Order of St. John was first seen in the
Middle Ages, and has since become a symbol of devotion and
support, both in times of peace and in times of war.
Since its inception, St. John Ambulance has saved millions of
lives, and an equal number have been saved as a result of its
training, prevention and consciousness-raising efforts aimed at
the general public.
Every year, close to 800,000 people in Canada and Quebec receive
St. John Ambulance training.
In other words, millions of people could some day save lives.
We have all seen this great humanitarian organization in action,
as we are familiar with its trained first-aiders, therapeutic
canine hospital visitors, CPR courses, and ski patrollers.
The Bloc Quebecois wishes to express its thanks to all St. John
Ambulance volunteers. Their generosity and commitment merit our
admiration.
* * *
[English]
ST. JOHN AMBULANCE
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
on behalf of the NDP and in the context of National Volunteer
Week, I rise to pay tribute to St. John Ambulance, one of the
oldest charity and volunteer organizations in the world. St.
John Ambulance is celebrating its 900th anniversary, a landmark
in history that is unmatched by any other charity organization.
The Order of St. John, from which St. John Ambulance grew, dates
formally to the year 1099 and traces its roots to a hospital run
by Benedictine monks in Jerusalem.
The NDP gives thanks for the 25,000 volunteers and youth members
and for all the ways in which St. John Ambulance contributes to
the well-being of communities in every part of Canada.
The first aid training, the first aid treatments offered at
large public gatherings and other services provided by St. John
Ambulance make Canada a safer place for Canadians to work and
play. Each year over 800,000 are instructed in first aid and
over 200,000 Canadians are treated.
May I also take this opportunity to personally recognize two
constituents of mine, Mr. Dan Trochim, who recently received the
Serving Brother Award for his St. John Ambulance work, and Mr.
Bill Bihun, my father-in-law, who was a first aid man in his
workplace at the CNR and who served many years as a St. John's
volunteer at public events.
* * *
ST. JOHN AMBULANCE
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, in 1882
the St. John Ambulance Association took root in Canada. Over the
years, this ever-vigilant community service group has grown to
become a large family with volunteers numbering 25,000
nationwide.
In 1099, the Order of St. John, an order of Benedictine monks,
ran a hospital in Jerusalem caring for those in need. From this
history comes our modern St. John Ambulance Association and
Brigade. After nine centuries of helping others, the St. John
Ambulance Association has become the oldest charitable and
humanitarian organization in the world. They are committed to
enabling Canadians to improve their health, safety and quality of
life by providing training and community service.
On behalf of the PC Party of Canada, I would like to thank Mr.
David Johnston, Chancellor of the St. John Ambulance Association
of Canada, the workers and the volunteers, and I wish them all a
wonderful year of celebration of 900 years of community service.
* * *
NATIONAL ORGAN DONOR WEEK
Mrs. Karen Redman (Kitchener Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
this is Organ Donation Awareness Week and tomorrow is National
Organ Discussion Day. As a member of the Standing Committee on
Health, I have had the opportunity to learn a great deal about
organ and tissue donation in our country.
Each year in Canada, approximately 1,500 people die who could be
potential donors, yet only 400 individuals actually donate. These
statistics are startling.
In Kitchener Centre companies such as the Mutual Group and
organizations such as the Kidney Foundation regularly work to
raise awareness about donation and transplantation.
While the word is spreading about the importance of organ
donation, more needs to be done. In 1996 a Mutual Group survey
showed 54% of Canadians did not know if their family members
wished to donate their organs.
I am pleased to be able to participate in the Kidney
Foundation's Celebration of Life event tomorrow. This event will
not only help raise awareness, but honour local recipients and
donors.
I encourage all members of the House to participate in this
meaningful week and raise awareness on this important matter.
* * *
FORUM FOR YOUNG CANADIANS
Mr. Janko Peric (Cambridge, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, each year
the Forum for Young Canadians brings more than 500 high school
students from across Canada to learn first-hand how government
works.
Through presentations on the role of MPs and cabinet and
simulations of an election, a cabinet committee, a question
period and a federal-provincial conference, these future leaders
gain a deeper insight into governance in Canada.
This year Andrew Rennie, Kathy Swan and Kneale Turner from my
riding of Cambridge are taking part in this important learning
experience.
I join all members in welcoming these young Canadians to our
nation's capital and I wish them success as they discuss and
debate our system of government.
* * *
1405
NATIONAL ORGAN DONOR WEEK
Mr. Reed Elley (Nanaimo—Cowichan, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
this is National Organ Donor Awareness Week. This is a time when
we remember the role organ donors play in many people's lives. In
Canada today over 3,000 people are waiting for life-giving organ
transplants. Canada has one of the lowest donation rates in the
world. This has to change.
In most cases the saving of another life through a donation
means that someone else took the time to think of others and
acted in the most generous way possible. They literally gave
themselves for others.
It is possible that my own daughter will be in need of a kidney
transplant in the future. At that point my wife and I will be
eternally thankful to the donor for they will be able to give her
what we are not able to give. The gift of a kidney would be to
her the gift of life.
Tomorrow I will be introducing my private member's bill, the
awarding of the organ donation medal act. This bill will
posthumously recognize the supreme gift that is a given to others
in our society.
I would ask for the support of all members of the House in order
to ensure that organ donors are suitably recognized through this
bill.
* * *
MARGARET CAMPBELL
Mr. Bill Graham (Toronto Centre—Rosedale, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it is with a heavy heart that I rise today in the House to
pay tribute to my neighbour, friend, constituent and mentor to
myself and so many Liberals in Ontario, Margaret Campbell, the
first Liberal woman member of the provincial parliament in
Ontario who passed away late Monday night.
In the 1960s, after having helped to pave the way for women in
the legal profession, Margaret began her stellar political life
as a Toronto ward councillor, subsequently being elected
city-wide as a controller and going on to become a much respected
city budget chief. Margaret was one of the first voices speaking
to the issue of domestic violence in our society.
Margaret was invested with the Order of Canada in 1983. In 1985
she established a fund for Liberal women seeking provincial
election.
In recent years, Margaret gave her time to the out of the cold
program and lobbying on behalf of “her street kids”, as she
called them, continuing her social work.
All Ontarians will regret the passing of Margaret, whose
devotion to social justice in our community was known by all.
* * *
[Translation]
TRAGEDY IN LITTLETON, COLORADO
Mrs. Maud Debien (Laval East, BQ): Mr. Speaker, we were all
greatly distressed to hear the news of the terrible tragedy that
struck a school in Littleton, Colorado.
Two heavily armed young men took the lives of other vulnerable
and defenseless young people. This unbelievable event,
unprecedented in its toll of victims, leaves us with a feeling
of helplessness. The most distressing thing about this tragedy
is that the young killers focussed particularly on Hispanic and
Black victims.
This drama is a brutal reminder that the battle for racial
integration is still being fought each and every day. It shows
how important it is to be constantly attuned to our youth, in
order to help them not to feel hopeless about the future.
The Bloc Quebecois wishes to convey its condolences to the
bereaved families and to all the people of Littleton who mourn
today.
* * *
PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
Ms. Raymonde Folco (Laval West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on March 26,
the Government of Canada announced the signing of a bilateral
agreement to promote the employment of people with disabilities.
The agreement covers the conditions involved in keeping them on
the labour market as well.
This is a federal government framework agreement, elements of
which are negotiated with each of the provinces. These
agreements, it should be noted, reflect the priorities of the
provinces.
Quebec will have a good share of this program, some $195.5
million over five years, to cover half of the cost of setting up
programs and services for persons with disabilities.
This is an illustration of federalism working locally and
involving the federal government and its provincial partners.
* * *
[English]
MILLION DOLLAR COP
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to
a million dollar Canadian.
Last weekend an off-duty Vancouver city police officer was
walking his dog when the dog sniffed out a duffel bag left lying
beside a dumpster. The bag contained a million dollars.
Just think about it, Mr. Speaker, you are out walking your dog
and find a bag with a million bucks in it. What would you do? I
do not know what I would do, especially since I do not have an MP
pension, but this police officer did not even hesitate. He
turned the money in like the great citizen he is.
The question now is, who owns that money. As a private citizen,
this officer would be the first in line for the money if no one
claimed it within 60 days. However, as a police officer the
rules are not so clear.
The police say they have never seen a case like this and it may
have to go before the courts. In the court of public opinion I
think the verdict is crystal clear: this million dollar cop
should get the money just like any other Canadian.
* * *
1410
[Translation]
THE ENVIRONMENT
Mr. Nick Discepola (Vaudreuil—Soulanges, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on
March 25, the Government of Canada announced it would invest
$175,000 in the Multimedia Exchange Tour on Climate Change.
This tour is to show young Canadians what simple things they can
do each day to reduce greenhouse gas emissions at home, at
school, on the street, in their neighbourhood and in their
community.
This sort of action demonstrates the Liberal government's
intention to work to protect our resources and to inform future
generations about protecting the environment.
I invite all Canadians to do their share to protect the vital
resources of our country and planet.
* * *
[English]
FISHERIES AND OCEANS CANADA
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Mr. Speaker, yesterday the auditor general
released the most damning indictment to date of the management
policies of the DFO.
The auditor general hinted that the same mismanagement that led
to the collapse of the cod fishery is now leading toward the
total collapse of the shellfish industry in Atlantic Canada.
On decision making within the department he had this to say:
The absence of a fisheries policy that fully reflects
sustainability concepts means that decisions are made on an ad
hoc and inconsistent basis rather than as part of an overall
framework.
We found resource use decisions in the shellfish fisheries that
are inconsistent with the concept of an economically viable
industry.
The department's actions have encouraged increased harvesting
capacity...even though there is uncertainty about how long the
recent increases in this stock will last.
We have already seen the movie cod one. No one in Atlantic
Canada wants to see the sequel, shellfish two.
* * *
[Translation]
KOSOVO
Mrs. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
the result of yesterday afternoon's vote in the House is clear:
the Prime Minister does not care about parliamentary approval
for sending troops to Kosovo.
How else to explain his scorn for democracy, when in 1991, he
considered it vital to hold a vote in parliament before Canada
participated in the gulf war? Just how important is democracy
to the Prime Minister?
Here is one explanation, perhaps. It comes from an interview
the Prime Minister gave to a German newspaper early in the year.
He said, and I quote “The good thing about our system in Canada
is that, with a majority, the government just has to keep the
members of its own party in line”.
The Prime Minister missed a fine opportunity to obtain a strong
consensus from all the parties in this House. He could have
strengthened his international position and honoured the demands
he made himself in 1991.
The Prime Minister's lack of transparency and leadership, his
lack of respect for democracy and for parliament all indicate
that power is more important than democracy in this country.
* * *
[English]
SIR WILFRID LAURIER
Mr. Hec Clouthier (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, 1999 marks the 80th anniversary of the death of a
great leader who led Canada into the 20th century, Sir Wilfrid
Laurier.
As this century draws to a close, we must continue to champion
the ideals of Laurier's lasting legacy as we pass the torch to a
new generation of Canadians. We must continue to reach out to
our fellow citizens to strengthen our bond and our identity as
Canadians. We must continue to relentlessly challenge our own
standards. We must continue to make our voice heard distinctly
and bravely because we can and we will make a difference.
Let us inspire with intense passion and fervent conviction,
proud of our noble heritage, enriched by our diversity of talent,
invigorated by our unity of vision, and empowered by our infinite
hope and undying loyalty. As Laurier would say, this is our
responsibility and we must do so without fear and without favour.
* * *
NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR NURSES
Mr. Charlie Power (St. John's West, PC): Mr. Speaker,
nurses in Newfoundland and Labrador have been betrayed by two
levels of Liberal government.
During the provincial election only a few months ago, Premier
Tobin felt the pressure of the nurses' demonstrations on the
campaign trail. He told them not to worry and hinted openly that
everything would work out well for them after he secured his
re-election. Now, he and his minister of health have turned
their backs on the nurses of Newfoundland and Labrador.
Nationally, the Liberals are gouging a staggering $6 billion a
year in CHST transfers to the provinces.
That means that every year in Newfoundland we receive $146
million less for health, education and social services than we
did during the former Progressive Conservative government's time
in office, and the Liberals would have us believe that theirs is
a party of compassion on social issues.
1415
After six years of Liberal government, Canada's health care
system is in crisis. The province's ability to support those who
deliver health care services has been seriously undermined. This
government's record on health care issues is a national disgrace.
* * *
[Translation]
NEW MEMBER
The Speaker: I have the honour to inform the House that the
Clerk of the House has received from the Chief Electoral Officer
a certificate of the election and return of the following
member:
Mr. Rick Limoges, for the electoral district of Windsor—St.
Clair.
* * *
[English]
NEW MEMBER INTRODUCED
Rick Limoges, member for the electoral district of Windsor—St.
Clair, introduced by the Right Hon. Jean Chrétien and the Hon.
Herb Gray.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
KOSOVO
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
just to advise the new member for Windsor—St. Clair, the
official opposition is on this side of the House. We certainly
congratulate him on his victory in his riding.
The Prime Minister is heading to Washington this weekend to meet
with other leaders of the NATO alliance. It is important that
our country be represented with a clear position on the question
of ground troops. We simply cannot be seen sitting on the
sidelines waiting for our NATO allies to make decisions for us.
Does the Prime Minister support the use of ground troops in
Kosovo, yes or no?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we are supporting NATO and at this moment the strategy
of NATO is well known. There are air strikes at this moment. It
is a strategy that is supported by the 19 nations involved in
NATO. I presume there will be discussions about ground troops,
but there is no such plan at this time.
There is no position to be taken because there is no demand for
us to have ground troops in Kosovo at this moment.
1420
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
think it is important for Canadians to know what the position of
the Prime Minister will be in representing Canada at the
Washington meeting. The Prime Minister said yesterday “If
everyone agrees, I will not be the only one not to agree”. What
on earth does that mean? It sounds like the Prime Minister is
sitting on the fence. He is going to Washington to represent
Canada and Canadians do not know what his position is.
Will the Prime Minister tell the House exactly what Canada's
position will be going into these meetings in Washington?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the position of Canada is very clear. We are supporting
and we are part of NATO because it is very important to stop the
murdering, the raping and the cleansing that is going on in
Kosovo. We are part of a team of 19 countries which have decided
that the best way to handle the problem at this moment is to have
air strikes. That is exactly what is going on. The air strikes
will continue for some time. If someday we are confronted with
the necessity to send ground troops, we will do so with the
others. I said that yesterday. We will not be the ones to not
be members of the team.
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the issue will go before the committee in Washington in two or
three days. Now there is an opportunity for the Prime Minister
to call a vote on the issue. With a clear mandate from
parliament the Prime Minister would be able to represent Canada's
position with confidence. As it sits right now, no one knows
what his position is.
The Prime Minister has two days left. Will the Prime Minister
call a vote on the issue of further commitments to the Kosovo
crisis?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we are not confronted with the problem at this moment.
We are in the phase of air strikes. If the opposition wanted to
have a vote on that, a motion was introduced last Tuesday by
them. They could have put the question to the House. They were
not interested. The Bloc was not interested on Monday either.
I said that if we have to send ground troops there will be a
debate in this House. However, there is no such thing at this
moment and I do not want to speculate.
Mr. Bob Mills (Red Deer, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the war in
Kosovo seems to be escalating and new military commitments by
Canada seem to be most likely. Does the Prime Minister think he
is some sort of king who can simply send his peasants off to war?
Does he really think—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. I would ask the hon. member
to be very judicious in his choice of words.
Mr. Bob Mills: Mr. Speaker, does the Prime Minister
really think that he can make this decision over cocktails in
Washington instead of consulting parliament?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, if the member thinks that the President of the United
States, the President of France, the Prime Minister of Great
Britain, the Prime Ministers of Greece and Italy and the Prime
Minister of Canada will be in Washington for three days to have
cocktails, he should be ashamed of himself. This person pretends
that he is a responsible member of parliament.
Mr. Bob Mills (Red Deer, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is easy
for the Prime Minister to act this way. He thinks it is some
kind of joke. He ruthlessly crushes dissent in his backbench and
routinely forces whipped votes.
Why does the Prime Minister think that his opinion is the only
one that counts when we consider going to war in Kosovo?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member refuses to recognize that there was a
debate last week on this issue. His own leader got up to support
the position of the government, as well as the leaders of all the
other parties. We had the debate. There was a fourth debate on
Monday on the same issue.
1425
If they do not have confidence in the way the government is
handling this issue, they can go against what we are doing
and tell our soldiers that they are not backed by the Reform
Party.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday, during a one-hour television broadcast, we learned
more about where the Prime Minister stood on the issue of
sending ground troops than in two weeks of questioning here in
the House.
Yesterday, the Prime Minister surprised everyone by saying that
he would not be opposed to sending ground troops.
I want to know why the Prime Minister claimed that this question
was too hypothetical to debate and vote on here in the House,
when his mind was already made up.
How could he have so little respect for parliament?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
answer all the questions put to me every time I am here, in the
House of Commons.
I said, and I repeat, that no decision needs to be taken right
now because NATO's strategy is to continue the bombing against
President Milosevic's regime.
That is the government's position. There will be talks on the
weekend. But right now we do not have to take a decision about
sending combat troops to Kosovo. The decision has not been
taken and does not need to be taken as long as NATO has not made
a decision.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, just
because the Prime Minister is speaking does not mean he is
answering questions.
Does he realize that, because of his bungling, his stubbornness
and his lack of respect for parliament, he will not be able to
speak in Washington next Friday with all the moral authority
that he himself required of Brian Mulroney in 1991?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
we are assuming our responsibilities. If the hon. member has
had a change of heart since rising in this House on Monday ten
days ago in support of the government's position, let him come
right out and say so.
If he himself is suggesting that we should decide immediately to
send combat troops when that is not being considered at this
time, let him say so.
I hope we will not need to send combat troops. I hope we will
find a diplomatic solution before thinking about sending troops,
but if it comes to that, I have said—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Laurentides.
Mrs. Monique Guay (Laurentides, BQ): Mr. Speaker, according to
some alarming rumours, a sizeable portion of the humanitarian
aid sent to the Kosovar refugees is apparently being diverted to
the black market by local gangsters.
According to these sources, this diversion might affect up to
70% of the aid being sent, and apparently certain humanitarian
organizations have already moved out of some regions because of
this major problem.
Could the Minister for International Co-operation bring us up to
date on this extremely worrisome situation?
Hon. Diane Marleau (Minister for International Cooperation and
Minister responsible for Francophonie, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we
have heard these same allegations, and are taking all necessary
precautions to ensure that the food goes where it is intended to
go.
We have contacted General Maisonneuve, who is on-site, in order
to get his impressions on this phenomenon. He believes this may
well be an exaggeration, but allow me to assure you that this is
of great concern to us and we are going to do everything
possible to ensure that the food gets to those who really need
it.
Mrs. Monique Guay (Laurentides, BQ): One more attempt from the
government side to reassure us, Mr. Speaker, but we still lack
an awful lot of information.
Can the minister commit to including representatives of the NGOs
helping the Kosovo refugees in the government briefing sessions,
so that we may know to whom the humanitarian aid is really
going?
Hon. Diane Marleau (Minister for International Cooperation and
Minister responsible for Francophonie, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we
are going to do everything we can to ensure that the desired
information is made available.
[English]
It is very important for us to ensure that the people who are
suffering get the food that we are paying for. We will do
everything to share whatever information we have. I know that
the people of the non-governmental operations who are there would
also be very willing to speak to anyone about what is happening.
1430
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
Prime Minister said last night that if NATO decided to send
ground troops into Kosovo then Canada would follow along.
Canadians expect a leader, not a follower. The Prime Minister
should go to NATO and push for a diplomatic solution to the
humanitarian crisis in Kosovo.
Will the Prime Minister advance a specific diplomatic proposal
at the NATO summit and, if so, what is it?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we are working at the United Nations. The Minister of
Foreign Affairs has been meeting with his colleagues and has
talked with most of the leaders many times about a possible
solution.
It is clear to all of us that President Milosevic has to accept
that to put a stop to the killing, to the raping and to the
ethnic cleansing that has been going on for more than a year is a
condition for us to stop bombing.
Of course I have talked with the Russians. Everybody would like
a solution, but there will be no solution as long as President
Milosevic continues his ethnic cleansing and the rest.
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, Russia
will only support a truly international civilian protection force
in Kosovo.
NATO on the other hand clings to its demand that any civilian
protection force must be NATO dominated. We cannot have it both
ways. Do we want Russia's participation or do we want NATO's
domination?
We need Canada to take leadership and persuade NATO to support a
truly international option. Will Canada lead or blindly follow?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I replied last week to a question of the leader that my
government and I wanted to have more than the NATO force.
I said at that time, and I have repeated it in the House many
times, that we have to have a force that will include the
Russians. I said that last week to one of your questions. You
should read what I told you last week.
The Speaker: Order, please. I ask hon. members to direct
their remarks to the Chair.
* * *
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): Mr. Speaker, on
December 10, when the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food made
his announcement of the disaster assistance program, he said it
would be bankable and he said dollars would be put in producers'
pockets.
We know now that the program is not bankable. We know now that
very few if any dollars have been going into producers' pockets.
My question is for the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food.
Will he admit that there are problems with the AIDA program right
now? Is he prepared to talk to the industry, to talk to the
stakeholders and to revamp the program so more of those dollars
can flow into the pockets of producers?
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have been continually talking to the
producers, to the provinces and to the farm organizations.
What I am prepared to say to the hon. member and everyone else
is that even though over 13,000 forms have been sent out to the
provinces of Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Newfoundland and Nova
Scotia, only 291 have been returned by the producers. When they
return those forms then we can work on the forms.
Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): Mr. Speaker, I
was speaking with the minister of agriculture from Ontario and I
find that only 5% of the producers will be eligible for the AIDA
program. Mr. Spooker, in Manitoba only 5% of producers will be
eligible.
Some hon. members: Boo, boo.
The Speaker: Order, please. I know there is a question
in there somewhere.
Mr. Rick Borotsik: Mr. Speaker, it was a Freudian slip. I
apologize.
Approximately $900 million was supposed to flow to farmers.
Unfortunately the government seems to be wanting to save money as
opposed to saving agriculture.
Will the minister please make sure that the application forms
are better processed so he can put back in the producers' hands
the dollars that he promised?
1435
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if you want some names to call the hon.
member, I know some that would be appropriate.
The member refers to the forms. If he would like to see a set
of the forms, I would remind him that there are only seven pages.
The first page of the form is name and address. The next one is
miscellaneous income and expenses. The next one is purchased
inputs, crop inventory, livestock inventory, a summary of the
inventory. That is the sixth page. The last one is a list of
receivables and payables.
There is not one bloody figure on there that cannot be pulled
off their income tax or their farm statement.
The Speaker: Let us be judicious in our choice of words.
* * *
KOSOVO
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Just as long as
you do not become known as Mr. Streaker, it will be fine with us,
Mr. Speaker.
The official opposition support for our troops and against
Milosevic is absolutely unwavering.
The Prime Minister says he will let NATO decide whether or not
Canada commits troops to Yugoslavia. How many troops is he
prepared to commit, or will he let NATO tell us? How many lives
will he put on the line, or will he let NATO tell us?
This is a huge decision. It should be a Canadian decision. Why
is he letting NATO tell us what to do?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): I said,
Mr. Speaker, and I repeat it, that if there is a request for
ground troops to go into a combat situation in Kosovo, there will
be a debate in the House of Commons before we send them.
They could have had a vote themselves and they ran away from the
vote. Rather than ask a question on Kosovo the day after the
debate in the House, they had a strange day last week because the
Liberal Party is getting effective in western Canada.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
when will the Prime Minister act like a leader? The last time I
checked, Canada was a sovereign nation. They made a big deal
about not taking their marching orders from Washington. Little
did we know they would be taking them from Brussels.
When will the government put its position to parliament so
Canadians can have their representatives vote on the most
important decision a nation can make?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we had a debate. The leader of his party spoke on
behalf of his party, I presume, and all the other leaders spoke.
The morning after they could have had a vote on that and they
declined.
The government has the confidence of this side. I was told last
week that I had the confidence of the four parties on the other
side. I thought it was enough to speak on behalf of all
Canadians.
* * *
[Translation]
INTERNATIONAL TRADE
Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
Americans are thinking of withdrawing Canada's defence and
aerospace export privileges.
The Minister of International Trade learned this from the
newspapers, but the Minister of Foreign Affairs was aware that
his departmental staff had been discussing this with Washington
for some months.
My question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs, who appears
to know what is going on.
Since the planned restrictions even affect contracts with no
connection to military secrecy, how does the government plan to
defend itself against these new attempts by Washington to do
harm to the trade between the two countries?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I will be meeting next Friday with the U.S. Secretary
of State to discuss this. It is very important for Canada and
for the United States.
Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ): Mr. Speaker, how can
Canada claim to be properly defending the interests of Quebec,
when no one in Quebec was aware that the Americans were
preparing to impose such trade restrictions, while in Ottawa the
matter had been being discussed with Washington for some months?
Is this Ottawa's philosophy has for defending Quebec: What they
don't know won't hurt them?
[English]
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, when officials and ministers of the government deal
with another country we speak for all Canadians, incluant les
Québécois.
* * *
KOSOVO
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the only thing that we can seem to discern about the Prime
Minister's position on the conflict in Kosovo is ground troops if
necessary but necessarily ground troops.
That begs the question under what criteria would the Prime
Minister believe that ground troops would be necessary. When
that question comes before the NATO conference and Bill Clinton
and Tony Blair provide their answers to the question, what will
our Prime Minister say? When are ground troops necessary? Does
he have a position?
1440
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have a very clear position. We have entered into the
campaign to stop President Milosevic and the ethnic cleansing,
raping and murdering that are going on.
However, we are a member of a team and as a member of a team we
have agreed on a strategy that the best way to break the resolve
of Milosevic was to have air strikes. That is what is going on
at this time. It took 45 days of air strikes in Iraq before we
could move on to the next stage. We are not there yet.
We are accelerating the air strikes at this moment. I believe
that it is the best policy at this time, agreed to by everybody
including Canada.
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the Prime Minister misses the point. The members of the team
will be gathering in Washington later this week to talk about
what extension, if any, we get into in the Kosovo conflict.
When that discussion happens, will Canada through its Prime
Minister just sit idly by and let the other members of the team
make a decision for us and our troops, or will we participate in
that discussion, make a recommendation and offer a position as to
whether and under what criteria ground troops would be necessary?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, for a party that is supposed to support a position of
the government, it is trying to have it both ways.
The hon. member should know that this Prime Minister is not
known as a very shy person.
* * *
[Translation]
PLUTONIUM IMPORTS
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, yesterday
we heard that the government categorically rejected the
recommendation of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and
International Trade regarding the idea of burning MOX fuel.
My question is for the Prime Minister. How can the government
ignore the work of a House committee and take the decision to
import plutonium without even consulting the public?
[English]
Hon. Ralph E. Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the testing of a minute amount of MOX material is
already well covered within the licensing authority of the Chalk
River lab.
If the project should go any distance beyond that, it would
require a full public environmental review. We have said that
now at least 17 times.
[Translation]
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, given
the importance of such a decision by the government, should the
Prime Minister not announce without delay that this important
issue of importing plutonium will be debated in the House?
[English]
Hon. Ralph E. Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, now for the 18th time.
If there is any decision to be taken that goes beyond the mere
testing that is already covered by the licensing at Chalk River,
there would be a full public review that would cover all
environmental, health and safety requirements as provided in
either federal or provincial law.
* * *
FISHERIES
Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the auditor general has just issued a stern warning to the
Minister of Fisheries and Oceans that the same mismanagement
which led to the collapse of the cod fishery now threatens the
multibillion dollars shellfish industry.
We have no cod. Thanks to the minister, soon we will have no
shellfish. Is the minister proud that his legacy will be that
there will no shellfish industry left in Canada?
Mr. Wayne Easter (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Fisheries and Oceans, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we should refer to
the hon. member as the member of gloom and doom. He certainly
knows far better than that.
The shellfish industry was the main economic activator in
Newfoundland last year. The auditor general had some good things
to say in his report as well in terms of some of the directions
we are taking.
We have learned lessons from the past. We intend to build on
those lessons and we intend to use the auditor general's report
as good advice.
Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the auditor general made it very clear that the
shellfish industry is going down the same path as the cod did 10
years ago.
The only lesson that the taxpayers learned is that it cost them
over $3 billion, and there are still no cod and the fishermen are
worse off today.
Will the legacy of the government with shellfish be another $3
billion on the backs of the taxpayer? What is it?
Mr. Wayne Easter (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Fisheries and Oceans, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the moneys expended
in terms of the retirement packages in the groundfishery were
spent for good cause, to help in terms of the social welfare of
the community and to retire licences.
1445
In fact there was too much capacity. We recognized that and
that capacity has been brought down from 18,000 licence holders
in 1992 to 11,000 today.
In terms of the shell fishery, we are managing it in ways of
good management plans, dockside monitoring, enforcement officers,
and the list is too long for me to continue with.
* * *
[Translation]
MARIJUANA
Mr. Bernard Bigras (Rosemont, BQ): Mr. Speaker, this morning,
the Minister of Justice said she was open to the idea of
decriminalizing the simple possession of drugs. However we know
that those who use marijuana for therapeutic purposes are in a
particularly difficult situation.
Would the minister agree to move quickly for those already using
marijuana for therapeutic purposes so that they no longer have
to face the threat of being charged?
[English]
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I believe the hon. member is
referring to a resolution passed by the Canadian chiefs of police
yesterday in relation to the possession of a number of narcotic
drugs. As I indicated this morning to the press, I am certainly
going to review the resolution passed by the Canadian chiefs and
I look forward to discussing it with them at their annual meeting
this August.
* * *
[Translation]
BLOC QUEBECOIS
Mr. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, first the Bloc
established its identity insisting on the recognition of two
founding peoples. Now it is going off in another direction,
doing a total about face, dropping this and not replacing it.
Could the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs tell us what he
thinks of this new trick of the party without a future, which is
now denying our history?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, Canada has inherited from its past the opportunity, the
obligation and the privilege of promoting the cause of the
French language and the French cultures in Quebec, throughout
Canada and around the world and to make this rich heritage
available to Canadians of all origins.
It is part of our heritage, of today's reality and of tomorrow's
future as a united Canada.
* * *
[English]
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Howard Hilstrom (Selkirk—Interlake, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the agriculture minister continues to blame farmers for
his poorly designed program and his mistakes in implementing it.
To date there has not been a penny go out to the farmers in
western Canada or in eastern Canada. Preliminary analysis of
this program by bankers and farmers shows that they are not going
to get the support they desperately need. What contingency plan
does this minister have to get money to hard-pressed farm families
in Canada that need that money now for seeding?
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to correct the hon. member.
There has been money flow, including provincial money and federal
money, in a number of the provinces, and it will continue to
flow. As soon as the forms come in, we will deal with them. I
can assure the hon. member there will be further cheques in
western Canada before the end of next week.
Mr. Howard Hilstrom (Selkirk—Interlake, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the forms should have been there last February, not now
in April when it is too late to get the money for seeding.
The agriculture minister also indicates that this is a simple
thing to fill out. Does the agriculture minister not know that
you have to convert from cash basis accounting to accrual basis
accounting? Does the minister intend to pay the farmers who are
unable to fill out their tax returns and this form themselves?
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, they can file either on a cash basis or
on an accrual basis. We and the Canadian Federation of
Agriculture advise that if they are filing their taxes on a cash
basis and they desire to change over in this application to an
accrual basis, they will likely benefit from doing so.
* * *
KOSOVO
Mr. Svend J. Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the Prime Minister.
Yesterday the Prime Minister confirmed that Canada has no
independent policy in NATO on the Kosovo crisis, that we are
simply a lapdog for the United States. The United States has
said that while an independent peacekeeping force in Kosovo
should include Russian troops, it must be a NATO led force and
not a UN led force.
1450
As Russia will never accept this position, why will Canada not
show independent leadership, break the unholy NATO consensus and
insist on a UN led, not a NATO led, peacekeeping force?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I said last week and I repeated it again today, that we
hope and we think it will work much better if the Russians are
involved. I said that in the House last week. If the member does
not want to listen to what I say, that is a different thing.
When he says that all the policies are not decided by Canada, of
course they are not. There are 19 countries, the United States,
France, Great Britain, Italy, Greece, the Netherlands, Spain and
many others. Nobody dictates to anyone what to do.
Mr. Svend J. Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
so much for Canada's leadership.
My question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs. The
minister knows that hundreds of thousands of desperate refugees
inside Kosovo lack basic food, water and shelter. NATO's only
bankrupt strategy is to keep bombing, possibly for months.
What concrete strategy is Canada pushing in NATO to meet the
desperate humanitarian needs of these refugees, or does Canada
simply support Tony Blair's statement that they will just have to
wait until the bombing is stopped? How much more suffering, how
much more starvation before Canada shows some leadership?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I reported this to the House last week. This was a
subject that was discussed at the ministerial meetings of NATO
last week. I am sure the secretary general will have a report
that he will be able to share with the leaders during the
Washington summit.
I remind the hon. member that the position we have taken all
along is that the most effective way to stop the suffering in
Kosovo is to have the withdrawal of the Serbian troops and to
stop the violence and atrocities so people can go back to their
homes and once again live in dignity.
* * *
[Translation]
TAXATION
Mr. André Harvey (Chicoutimi, PC): Mr. Speaker, my question is
for the Minister of Finance.
Further to the Chartrand-Laferrière report, which proves beyond a
doubt, with multiple models, the absurdities of the Quebec and
Canadian tax systems, does the Minister of Finance agree that
families earning between $26,000 and $70,000 a year find
themselves poorer after a salary increase than before it?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is
not my practice to comment on provincial policies.
However, I have to say 25 of the 39 measures identified by Mr.
Chartrand and Mr. Laferrière were introduced by the Parti
Quebecois. The number of measures introduced by that government
and the lack of co-ordination among them contributes
significantly to making Quebec the province with the highest
marginal rates in Canada.
Mr. André Harvey (Chicoutimi, PC): Mr. Speaker, we must not
forget that 14 of the measures in the Chartrand-Laferrière
report concern the federal government.
As he knows full well that free trade and the GST were approved
at the time in order, obviously, to fight the deficit and to
lower taxes, does the minister intend to correct these
injustices in the coming days?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as
the member knows very well, in our latest budget, we lowered
taxes by $16.5 billion over 36 months, we will eliminate the 3%
tax introduced by the Conservative government and we have
provided for many exemptions.
That said, the member's question is very relevant. This is why
we must lower taxes, and I hope all the provinces will follow
the federal government's lead, our lead.
* * *
[English]
KOSOVO
Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of National Defence.
Can the minister tell the House what the cost of the armed
forces participation in Kosovo is to date? Will this put in
jeopardy our recent commitments to address quality of life issues
in the armed forces?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in view of the comment by the President
of the United States about its $6 billion cost, I think it is
fair to note what our costs are. Of course they are far more
modest. Since June of last year when we first put our CF-18s into
Aviano, Italy, the total cost to this date is $32.4 million.
Since the air campaign began some 28 days ago, it is
approximately $11.9 million.
1455
The Government of Canada will of course meet those commitments.
At the same time, it will also complete its obligation to improve
the pay and benefits and quality of life for our fine Canadian
forces.
* * *
INDIAN AFFAIRS AND NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday the auditor general issued another scathing report on
the minister of Indian affairs and it is virtually a carbon copy
of the one issued in 1996. The auditor general says that her
department is woefully inadequate when it comes to
accountability. Allegations of wrongdoing and misuse of band
funds are not followed up on and resolved. In fact, the auditor
general confirms that matters have gotten worse.
How can the minister deny that she and her incompetent
department continue to fail grassroots people across this
country?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I read the auditor general's
report with interest.
The hon. member gives me the opportunity to reconfirm to this
House my commitment to have an effective allegations management
system in my department. In fact, that is why about a year ago I
issued national guidelines on allegations management. In every
region across this country we have allegations co-ordinators who
are trained to deal with the variety of allegations that we would
receive from first nations—
The Speaker: The hon. member for
Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert.
* * *
[Translation]
BILINGUALISM
Mrs. Pierrette Venne (Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
the Natural Sciences Research Council has just opened up a
temporary personnel supervisor position. It is offered to
anglophones, bilingualism is not required, and unilingual
francophones are not accepted.
How can the President of Treasury Board justify such a thing in
the national capital region? Will francophones be excluded from
the temporary positions, or will they have to communicate with
their supervisor through an interpreter?
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and Minister
responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the National
Research Centre informs us, since they are the ones doing this,
that what they need in these positions, in this unit, is four
people.
Of the four, three are designated bilingual because the
requirements of the position demand bilingualism, while one
position is designated anglophone because the requirements of
the position demand that the person speak English.
* * *
[English]
TRADE
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the Minister for International Trade and has
to do with the NAFTA meetings taking place later this week.
I would like to ask the Minister for International Trade why
Canada is not seeking either to entirely get rid of the investor
state dispute settlement mechanism or to significantly modify it
by actually amending the agreement. Why do we read that the
minister is willing to settle for an interpretative note? This
is certainly a backtracking from what I understand him to have
said before and it is certainly inadequate.
Is he willing to change his mind on this and actually seek an
amendment to that particular provision, chapter 11 of NAFTA or to
eliminate it altogether? That is what is at the heart of what is
wrong with NAFTA, and with the MAI when it was still alive.
Hon. Sergio Marchi (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the truth is that after five years NAFTA
has been a tremendous success for all three countries. Trade is
up, investment is up, and employment is up. We have built a North
American economy that is working well for all three countries.
At the same time, in addition to discussing the achievements, we
also want to address the challenges that still confront NAFTA. We
have said that we will put chapter 11 and the investor state on
the agenda to discuss it from a perspective of transparency,
narrowing the word and meaning of expropriation without reopening
NAFTA and losing the entire chapter.
* * *
[Translation]
KOSOVO
Mr. André Bachand (Richmond—Arthabaska, PC): Mr. Speaker, the
Prime Minister talks of slaughter, rape and ethnic cleansing in
Kosovo.
This information comes, I hope, from sources other than the
media. Such actions alone would probably justify sending ground
in ground troops.
Could the Prime Minister share with members of the House the
information he has on these atrocities? This would not put
anyone's life on the line, and might actually save lives. Could
the Prime Minister share with members of the House his sources
of information on the atrocities in Kosovo?
1500
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
any member of this House and any member of the public who
watches even a little bit of television and reads the papers
knows what we know. It is public knowledge that operations
began more than 12 months ago.
I am very surprised that the hon. member claims that these
things are not going on. There are very few people in the world
unaware that atrocities are now taking place in Kosovo and have
been for the last 12 months.
* * *
[English]
SPECIAL JOINT COMMITTEE ON CHILD CUSTODY AND ACCESS
Mr. Roger Gallaway (Sarnia—Lambton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
on December 10, 1998, the report of the Special Joint Committee
on Child Custody and Access was tabled in the House.
I know that there are thousands of Canadians who have been
touched by divorce and who are waiting for a response. I would
like to ask the Minister of Justice when she will table the
government's reply to the report.
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank all
members of that special joint committee for the very fine work
they did on a very important issue and a very difficult issue for
many Canadians, child custody and access.
I want to let the hon. member know that he and other members of
the House can expect the government's response on or before May
10.
* * *
PRESENCE IN GALLERY
The Speaker: I draw the attention of hon. members to
the presence in the gallery of a delegation led by the Speaker of
the Parliament of Uganda, the Honourable Francis Joash Ayume.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
* * *
1505
PRIVILEGE
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO COMMITTEE REPORT
The Speaker: Yesterday a question of privilege was raised
by the hon. member for Red Deer. At that time there were two
points raised. I judged that it was not a question of privilege,
but I wanted to have more information on the whole situation.
The first situation we dealt with yesterday concerned a matter
of courtesy to have the information there, and we dealt with that
issue.
The second issue dealt with the alleged passing out of
information to the media before our members of parliament
received it. That was the issue we were dealing with.
I asked yesterday either the Minister of Foreign Affairs or the
government House leader to give us an explanation today, and the
government House leader seems prepared to give us the information
now.
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I undertook yesterday to
investigate the complaint made by the hon. member for Red Deer
and others concerning the alleged leak of the government response
to a report of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and
International Trade and I now wish to report to the House on that
matter.
First, to put the matter into context, I should point out that
the more common method of tabling such responses is by depositing
them with the Clerk of the House, pursuant to Standing Order
32(1). As a consequence, such responses are often given little
public profile and may even escape the attention of members. In
this case the government believed that the issue at hand required
public attention and chose to table the response along with an
outline of its position on the general question raised in the
House itself. The intent of the government was not to try to
obscure the report from hon. members, but was quite the opposite;
that is, to draw it to their immediate attention.
Unfortunately, it was evident from an article in the media over
the weekend that someone with at least basic knowledge of the
position arrived at by the government chose to convey such
information without authority and quite probably unlawfully to at
least one journalist. It does not appear from the article in
question that the writer actually had a copy of the material
tabled on Monday, but of course who knows? However, somebody
obviously improperly relayed information which was at that stage
still a cabinet confidence.
Officials in several departments were privy to this information
and it is therefore quite impossible, at this stage at least, to
identify the culprit. I wish to assure the House that such
unauthorized release of information is not condoned by the
government, least of all by myself, and that a full investigation
by the proper authorities is under way on this matter.
The hon. member for Red Deer indicated that a journalist
contacted him some three hours—I believe that was the number he
gave—before the documents were tabled, claiming to have a copy.
I regret to report that two journalists were given copies of the
material sometime between 1.30 p.m. and 2 p.m.—not three hours
before—on an embargoed basis. Even though the journalists in
question appeared to have abided by the undertakings of the
embargo, I regard this release as an error in judgment
nonetheless.
I want to tell the House that it is definitely not the regular
practice of the government to provide advance copies of material
to be tabled in the House to the media unless comparable
arrangements are made for relevant opposition spokespersons,
as is done on matters such as the budget. I must assure the
House that I will draw this matter to the attention of my
colleagues in an effort to avoid such discourtesy in the future.
I will come back to this point a little later in my remarks.
1510
An hon. member: Your nose is growing.
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Speaker, I would appreciate—
The Speaker: Gentlemen, we are listening to an
explanation. I would very much appreciate it if hon. members
would not heckle, especially at this time.
I take this to be a very serious matter and I want to hear what
the government House leader has to say about it. I therefore ask
hon. members to stop heckling.
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Speaker, I am giving the
information which I know to the House and the information which I
believe to be the truth. For members to suggest that I am doing
the opposite of telling the truth is not only disrespectful of
me, but indeed of the entire House of Commons.
It has not been possible to discover any release of any material
as earlier as three hours before the tabling, although, as I said
earlier, sometime between 1.30 p.m. and 2.00 p.m. two copies were
released. I have been able to confirm that. It may be possible
to trace this. If the hon. member for Red Deer wishes to be of
assistance, he could speak directly to the office of my
colleague, the Minister of Foreign Affairs or, if he prefers,
with department officials or even me if he has evidence that
information was available three hours ahead of time.
The second issue at hand concerns the availability of material
once tabled in the House of Commons. I am informed that the
regular distribution system of the House of Commons was employed
in the normal manner and that hon. members and their offices had
access to the papers within the usual timeframes for such
distribution. The specific times vary, of course, depending on
the location of each member. I am informed that some offices
received the material within about half an hour of tabling. One
case which I verified received it only minutes after it was
tabled.
However, I do not believe that sufficient courtesy was
demonstrated in making information available to members in the
House itself. I say this for the following reason. My
information is that immediately after the tabling the kits
containing the material tabled and related documents were placed
in the government lobby and distributed in the foyer outside the
House of Commons. These kits were available to members of the
opposition on request. I was informed that a staff person from
the New Democratic Party did in fact receive a kit upon request.
However, they were not placed in the opposition lobby in a
similar manner to their being placed in the government lobby, and
I apologize for that as well.
In addition, I am told that the clerk of the standing committee
sent copies of the response to all members of the standing
committee by electronic mail mechanism at 3.30 p.m. Nonetheless,
as I said earlier, copies were not placed in the opposition lobby
for general availability. That is not the same as what was
afforded to government members and I consider that to be wrong as
well.
All parties in the House sometimes place material in their
lobbies for partisan use by members. Nobody would expect that
type of information, talking points and so on, to be shared.
However, the material in question was not of a partisan nature,
but was a review of government policy to which all hon. members
have an equal right of access. Again, I apologize most sincerely
for this error in judgment and basic courtesy.
In reviewing this matter it is clear to me that the government
could serve the House better by improving and standardizing the
method of responding to committee reports, when required, by
Standing Order 109. I have therefore directed my officials to
prepare new guidelines for departments with a view toward
assuring that the needs of the House remain the principal
objective of such responses.
This case certainly demonstrates that some attention has to be
given to the government's internal security. In addition, it
exposes some errors in judgment and courtesy which, quite
frankly, embarrass me, for which I have apologized and about
which I have taken steps to correct. There was however, and I
say this sincerely, no attempt to deprive the House of any
information to which it is entitled.
Indeed it was the opposite that was intended, that is to say, to
maximize the information available to the House.
1515
I submit, however, that there was no contempt for the House
either intended or committed and that this matter should be taken
as a justifiable complaint. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that you
would determine that it was acted upon immediately, which it was.
The Speaker: Does the hon. member have something new to
add to what we are discussing?
Mr. Bob Mills (Red Deer, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I would like
to clarify some of the points that have been raised just so that
you have exactly what I said and the exact times.
My first interview was requested shortly after 12 o'clock, at
about 12.04 or 12.05. The next two were after one o'clock. They
said they had copies of it. They quoted from it and asked me to
respond to it. That was three reporters.
Also, the hon. House leader mentioned that these were available
at 4.30. My office is in the Centre Block and ours should be one
of the first to be delivered, I believe. We could not get a copy
until 5.30, as I mentioned yesterday.
Also, for our lobby staff person whom the hon. House leader said
could have gotten one across the way, it took 55 minutes before
he was able to get a copy.
We checked with the Clerk and we were told it would be at least
an hour before we could have a copy. The clerk of the committee,
whom we also called, confirmed that she had a great deal of
difficulty getting copies so that she could distribute them to
the members.
I really believe that we need an impartial investigation into
all of this because there certainly is a conflict of information.
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
I just want to say that I welcome the remarks of the government
House leader in this regard.
I do not doubt the sincerity of his apology or his good
intentions in this regard, but I would say that he has a big job
ahead of him. I think there is a culture of contempt for
parliament on the other side which he nobly struggles against but
which we find rife within the ranks of his own party. I wish him
well.
For the record, I want to say that we were looking for a copy
and once we realized where they might be, at about 3.45, we did
not receive one until 3.55. Of course the problem remained that
by that time all the commenting was over and opposition members
were in a position of not being able to comment in an informed
way.
But I welcome the remarks of the government House leader and I
wish him luck in bringing a rogue government to heel.
The Speaker: We do have a dispute as to the facts and
to the times.
If I understand the hon. government House leader, he said in his
statement that he was going to look into one or two other aspects
about this particular incident as to the timing. He asked the
hon. member for Red Deer if the hon. member would share with him
to try to get to the bottom of all this.
Today we have an apology from the government House leader. I,
too, believe it is sincere. I take it at face value.
Yes, the information should have been put in both lobbies. No,
it was not. Will that be corrected? The hon. government House
leader has said that he will do everything he can to see that
this type of thing does not occur again.
On this whole issue of leaks, the opposition House leader says
that he has intervened nine times. That is true. He has.
We have given our committee on procedure in the House this
particular problem to look at.
I anxiously await its report to this House and to see what it has
come up with as a suggestion where we, members of the House of
Commons, can better regulate these “leaks”.
1520
I would like to believe, as some hon. members have said, that
the leaks come only from one side, but I do not. I think the
leaks come from all sides. It is the institution that we are
dealing with here. It is the institution at this time in history
is in our hands.
I hope that in future this type of thing will not occur and I
take the hon. government House leader's intervention as telling
us that on his word it will not, to the best of his ability.
But, to the other thing about when it was released, as to the
times, was it 12.04 or was it 1.05, I think this might be open to
discussion. The offer has been made by the government House
leader to the member for Red Deer to collaborate, to see if they
can get to the bottom of this.
As for me, I judge there is not a question of privilege. But
how many times do we have to stand in this House together,
to say that we want to do something about this. If
we decide to do something, I await some kind of indication from
the committee. If it is not forthcoming from the committee, then
we will have to look perhaps at some other way of getting a
way—and I use this word in the general sense—to police
ourselves as members of parliament because we are not only
hurting ourselves, we are hurting the institution.
At this point I find that it is not a point of privilege. I
hope that it will not occur again. I hope that the committee can
come up with a solution to our particular dilemma.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[Translation]
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant
to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in both
official languages, the government's response to 14 petitions.
* * *
INTERPARLIAMENTARY DELEGATIONS
Hon. Charles Caccia (Davenport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to
Standing Order 34(1), the Canada-Europe Parliamentary Association
has the honour to present its report to the Canadian delegation
to the first part of the 1999 session of the Parliamentary
Assembly of the Council of Europe, held from January 25 to 29,
1999 in Strasbourg, France.
[English]
Mr. Bryon Wilfert (Oak Ridges, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I seek
the unanimous consent of the House to present in both official
languages the report of the Canada-Taiwan Friendship Group
delegation, January 1999.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Does the hon. member
have the unanimous consent of the House to present the report?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Bryon Wilfert: Mr. Speaker, I have the pleasure to
table in the House in both official languages the report of the
Canada-Taiwan Friendship Group delegation of January 1999. We had
the opportunity to meet with government officials and business
leaders to promote trade and culture.
1525
[Translation]
Mr. Antoine Dubé (Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
the member for Oak Ridges, who was also a member of the
delegation, was kind enough to supply me with his report. I
simply want to point out that it is a good account of the
activities in which we took part.
* * *
[English]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have the honour to present the 72nd report of the Standing
Committee on Procedure and House Affairs regarding its order of
reference from the House of Commons of March 1, 1999 in relation
to the main estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2000
in regard to vote 20 under Privy Council, Chief Electoral
Officer. Mr. Speaker, the committee reports the same.
* * *
TAXPAYERS BILL OF RIGHTS
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Ref.) moved for
leave to introduce Bill C-495, an act to confirm the rights of
taxpayers and establish the office for taxpayer protection.
He said: I am pleased to rise to move first reading of this
bill commonly known as the taxpayers bill of rights.
For several years now the Reform Party through its democratic
party process has had a policy in its blue book calling for the
introduction of a taxpayers bill of rights which would protect
taxpayers from summary unfair treatment by the Department of
National Revenue. We now know that department will become the
Canada Customs and Revenue Agency which will be even less
accountable than the current department is to this parliament.
We believe it is terribly important to enshrine in a law the
rights of taxpayers to due process so that they are treated as
innocent until proven guilty, rather than having the reverse onus
from which they currently suffer.
This bill would also create an office for taxpayer protection
which could order that taxpayers be protected from unfair
harassment by members of the revenue agency.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
FINANCE
Mr. Richard M. Harris (Prince George—Bulkley Valley, Ref.):
Mr. Speaker, I move that the seventh report of the Standing
Committee on Finance presented on Friday, June 12, 1998, be
concurred in.
I will be sharing my time with the member for Souris—Moose
Mountain.
This report from the finance committee deals with the issue of
tied selling in the banking industry. I think it is important to
note that the banks have long been regarded as captains of the
financial industry in Canada.
They are heavily regulated by requirement of the government. As
well, they are required to operate in a most transparent and
ethical manner by the consumers of their business.
1530
Private industry is willing to present to the public a code of
ethics or a code of conduct by which it operates so that the
people looking to put their trust in their institutions can
plainly see the guidelines the banks are going to operate by. The
public, the consumers of those services, is able to clearly judge
whether those institutions are in fact operating within the
guidelines of their code of ethics or code of conduct.
No one will argue that the banking industry is a powerful
decision maker in the financial sector and in the economy. It
makes very powerful decisions that affect the economy. However,
those decisions are less powerful than the Liberal cabinet which
sits on the front benches of the government.
While the banks are prepared voluntarily to lay out their code
of conduct, their code of ethics, their principles for all to see
and to judge them by, the Liberal government has refused, for a
number of years now, to make public the code of ethics that the
Prime Minister himself says exists, the special code of ethics
that he has for his ministers. He has been telling us since 1994
that indeed he has a special code of ethics that his ministers
must adhere to and be judged by.
As the Canadian public, the consumers of banking services, ask
the banking institutions to have their code of ethics made
public—and which they have no problem in complying—we in the
Reform Party have been asking the Prime Minister himself to make
public the code of ethics, that supposedly exists, that his
cabinet members, the most powerful decision makers in the
country, are bound to adhere to. Yet he has refused every single
request for the public presentation of that code of ethics.
We also understand that he has an ethics counsellor who helped
draft the code of ethics. We have requested from the ethics
counsellor a copy of this code of ethics but he has told us to
speak to the Prime Minister. We have been talking and pleading
with the Prime Minister to table in the House this mysterious
code of ethics, if it actually exists, so that not only
opposition members of parliament but even his own backbench
members of parliament would be able to see this code of ethics.
As well, the Canadian public would be able to see this mysterious
code of ethics that the Prime Minister has maintained over the
years actually exists.
Despite the numerous requests to the Prime Minister to table
this code of ethics, he has refused to do so a number of times.
To date, we have not seen it. He says he has it. We have asked
for it but he has not presented it.
1535
One can only draw one of two conclusions: Either the Prime
Minister has not been totally honest with us in saying that he
has—
Mr. Paul Bonwick: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order.
I believe the language the hon. member is using is not
parliamentary in nature. He is suggesting that a member of the
House is not telling the truth. I would ask perhaps that the
hon. member retract his statement.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I listened to the
comment by the hon. member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley and
his exact words were “not totally”, so that there was that
inference.
I accept the point made by the member for Simcoe—Grey. I have
allowed a certain discretion when the inference was not directed
at a specific individual, but in this particular case, although
it was oblique, it was directed at a specific individual. I
believe the member for Simcoe—Grey is quite correct.
I would therefore ask the member for Prince George—Bulkley
Valley to withdraw that remark.
Mr. Richard M. Harris: Mr. Speaker, of course I withdraw
that. Let me rephrase that. I see you are anticipating this new
phrase.
The Prime Minister has told us that this code of ethics exists
and that it is a real thing but he has been reluctant or has
refused to deliver it.
Either this code of ethics does not in fact exist—and the
Canadian public, the opposition and even the government's own
backbenchers can draw whatever conclusion they want from that—or
this code of ethics does in fact exist and the Prime Minister, in
his refusal to present it in the House, is doing it because he
does not want his own cabinet members, the most powerful decision
makers in the country, to be subject by the Canadian people to
the close scrutiny that would be available if that code of ethics
was made public.
One has to then draw the conclusion that either it does not
exist, even though the Prime Minister has said it does, or it
does exist and the Prime Minister feels that he may just possibly
be embarrassed by the conduct of his ministers. Given that those
must be the only two conclusions we can draw, I say in the House
that both of them, either one of them, are totally unacceptable
in parliament.
When the Canadian people look at the House of Commons and see
the Prime Minister, the cabinet, the government and the
opposition benches, I think we would all want them to have as
much confidence as possible in the decision making that goes on
in the House.
Incidentally, the Prime Minister, in both of his red books,
promised over and over again openness, transparency, honesty and
straightforwardness in how the government would run the country.
We see no example of that.
This is a very simple request. If the Prime Minister has a code
of ethics for his ministers, which he says he holds them
responsible to, he should just simply present it to Canadians so
they can benefit from it and be able look at it and say “This is
fantastic. I can see now that every cabinet minister in this
government must hold themselves to the highest standards in the
operation of their jobs and in the performance of their duties”.
That is what we in the Reform Party want for Canadians and what
I want for Canadians. However, that is obviously not what the
Prime Minister and every single one of his Liberal members want
for Canadians. That is a shameful display of arrogance in this
House.
1540
I have received many letters from constituents all across the
country asking me why the Prime Minister will not table this code
of ethics. They what to know what he is afraid of. Only the
Prime Minister knows what he is afraid of. Only the Prime
Minister knows the danger that might be present if he were to
table that code of ethics for his ministers. Not only could we
judge and scrutinize the way cabinet ministers carry out their
duties, but indeed all Canadians could do that. Maybe then the
Teflon jacket on our Prime Minister would start to fray.
The vote last night by all the Liberal members in unison was an
absolute shame. It was a black mark on democracy. It was a slap
in the face of Canadians who want to trust the government. The
Liberals should be ashamed of themselves. I hope the people of
Canada will hold each and every one of them responsible for it. I
would ask them to check out their local newspapers when they get
back to their ridings.
Mr. Paul Bonwick (Simcoe—Grey, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
hon. member speaks of ethics, of his request and of the defeat of
his bill last night. The very fact that he is making suggestions
in the House that either individuals or the government itself are
not abiding by a strict rule of ethics, whether it be on paper or
whether it be in the heart, is profoundly sad.
My question falls in line with the word “ethics”, which he has
been tossing around in the House. Would he stand up in the House
today and clearly state that he feels all the members within his
Reform caucus act in a very ethical manner when they provide the
services they were elected to provide, keeping in mind the
commitments of his leader on things like Stornoway, chauffeur
driven cars, clothing expenses and so on? I wonder if he would
take a moment to reflect on his own party's ethics or lack
thereof.
Mr. Richard M. Harris: Mr. Speaker, on the wall of my
constituency office is a code of ethics that I signed in front of
over 100 witnesses when I was first elected in 1993. I had no
hesitation in making that code of ethics public. It hangs in my
office for all my constituents to see. It outlines all the
promises I made to my riding and how I would conduct my duties as
a member of parliament, their elected representative.
I ask nothing less than that of the government. Let it put
forward its code of ethics. Let the Prime Minister tell the
Canadian people exactly how he expects his ministers to do their
job. The Prime Minister has not done that. Every single Liberal
member of that government voted against it last night. This was a
shameful thing for them to do and they should be ashamed of
themselves. They have once again betrayed the trust of the
Canadian people.
Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the code of ethics is a very important issue. I thank the hon.
member for bringing forward the issue and for demanding that the
code of ethics be tabled by the Prime Minister and his cabinet in
the House.
Yesterday, we saw that not even one Liberal member voted for it.
They seem to have some sort of fear, or, as the hon. member
pointed out, maybe the code of ethics does not exist, or maybe
they just do not want to present it. What is the hon. member's
opinion—
1545
Mr. Paul Bonwick: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I was under the impression that the hon. member was
bringing forward a motion with respect to finance. I am
curious—
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): That is a point of
debate and not a point of order.
Mr. Gurmant Grewal: Mr. Speaker, I would like to find out
from the hon. member what conclusion he draws when he sees there
is hesitation in tabling the code of ethics document in
parliament.
Mr. Richard M. Harris: Mr. Speaker, the only conclusion I
can draw is that either there is not a code of ethics, as he says
there is, or he has some fear that his cabinet ministers might
breach that code of ethics.
He has not only refused to produce the so-called code of ethics.
He failed on another promise that he made in May 1994. He was
asked if there would be a code of ethics and he said yes. He
said “As a matter of fact I will consult with the leader of the
opposition and the leader of the Reform Party before making that
appointment”.
An hon. member: Who said that?
Mr. Richard M. Harris: The Prime Minister said that in
May 1994. He said that he would search out an ethics
commissioner who would create the code of ethics.
He did not confer with the leader of the opposition or the
leader of the Reform Party. We were the third party then. We
are now the official opposition. Not only did he not fulfil that
promise, but now he says that there is a code of ethics he is
unable or unwilling to present to the House.
In short, the conclusion I draw is that there must be something
the Prime Minister is not telling us about this code of ethics.
Mr. Roy Bailey (Souris—Moose Mountain, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, today both sides of the House stood and welcomed a new
duly elected member. I am rising to debate the motion by my
colleague from Prince George. I bring to the attention of the
House that what I have to say is more important than just one MP.
It is more important than the Liberals. It it is more important
than any party in the opposition. I am talking about what is
important to Canadians.
Just a few days ago a group of grade six students from Kanata
came to visit me. It was strange that they would come in from an
Ontario city but I enjoyed them. One thing I said to them was
“You are more important as individuals today than I am because
you are the future of Canada”.
I will not be talking in these brief few minutes about the issue
of tied selling. I will be talking about what is important to
the House and every member of the House. We have to get into a
selling program.
We just debated the issue of the leakage of reports. What did
the public see when it listened to this debate? It goes beyond
this institution. It goes beyond the city of Ottawa. It goes to
the farthest point west on Vancouver Island. It goes to
Bonavista. Canadians are now looking at the House in a
disrespectful way. As individuals, as hon. members, our
responsibility is to uphold the dignity and the traditions of the
House.
Mr. Peter Adams: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I know the member is discussing the behaviour of members of
parliament, but this is a motion that has to do with tied
selling. The member just said that he would not be speaking
about tied selling.
There is a great interest in this topic. My colleagues opposite
have raised it. I think, Mr. Speaker, you should rule that he
should address the topic of the motion.
1550
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The deputy
government House leader makes a very good point. The opposition
brought in a specific concurrence motion. The Chair will ensure
that those who wish to speak to the subject remain focused
closely on the subject.
Mr. Roy Bailey: Mr. Speaker, what I was getting at was
our responsibilities as members of the House to take a look at
all things which affect finance in the House and the committee
report.
The Canadian Federation of Independent Business deals with
finance and the financial business of thousands of its members
across Canada. Those same members rate politicians at the lowest
end of the scale. That is exactly what I am telling the
government opposite. It is time we stopped the nonsense. It is
time we stopped the bickering and took a look at something which
is bigger than both sides of the House.
When dealing with financial matters and with the report of the
Standing Committee of Finance it should be of the greatest
importance. Let me put it this way. At the present time
whenever Canadians see expenditures, revenues and so on, they
look upon them with a great deal of suspicion.
Members of all parties in the House need to take all possible
steps within our powers from every corner of the House to
re-establish with the Canadian people a basic trust in what we
are doing and a basic trust that every cent of revenue which
comes in and every expenditure which is made are totally
accounted for including, as the hon. member said, tied selling.
That is a concern.
I pass a paper around when I talk to grade 11 and 12 high school
students. When I say politician I tell them to write down one
word. One of the most common words they write down is the same
as the Canadian public says, crooks. We have a job of selling
to do not only within this finance committee report. That is
true, but we need to be more accountable.
Therefore, after 42 years in public life I believe the motion of
the member from Prince George should be thoroughly considered by
the opposition. I hope Canadians see the purpose of what we have
done today in the hon. member's motion.
Hon. Diane Marleau (Minister for International Cooperation
and Minister responsible for Francophonie, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, this is about finance. It is about tied selling. It is
about a lot of latitude. When we talk about finance and some of
the things we really value, we talk about honestly, integrity and
ethics. We sometimes wonder why the Canadian public does not
really appreciate politicians. Perhaps it is because sometimes
some politicians have the habit of misinterpreting or
misinforming.
Let me say something. I am a minister of the government. There
is a formal code of ethics for ministers. It is a public
document. We have to fill out how much we make and what we own
and all the rest of it. Over and above that, the Prime Minister
insists on other things from us. He names us. He decides what
he wants us to do. That is his prerogative. We have access to
information.
Absolutely everything we do is scrutinized every day. We
certainly do not fear any of that because we know it is a part of
what makes the country so great.
1555
In all honesty and integrity I remember when the Reform Party
used to say that it would do things differently in Ottawa. It
was to use civility. It was to treat others with respect. Have
we seen that from the Reform Party? Absolutely not.
Some of the things that have gone on are absolutely
unbelievable. Maybe Reformers should look to mend some of their
own ways and look to what they said before they got here.
Perhaps, if they followed that to the letter, we would all be
better off and Canadians would respect us all a lot more.
Mr. Roy Bailey: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member talked about
some hon. members misinforming. I had no intention of doing that
and I certainly did not do that. Nor have I misinformed in my
whole career. I too have a code of ethics and I have about 42
years in my record to prove it.
We talked about respect. What happened after question period
when the Speaker of the House and the hon. House leader wanted to
look into something which does not show respect for the House? It
was a leak, and that is what bothers me.
It is time the House did a better selling job, not just selling
the finance report but selling ourselves, our total selves, our
honesty and integrity.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I will go across the
Chamber and recognize the member for Simcoe—Grey.
Mr. Paul Bonwick (Simcoe—Grey, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it
is refreshing to know that you are approaching this in a fair
manner, unlike perhaps some of my hon. colleagues across the
floor.
The topic at hand was tied selling which is of concern to
Canadians across the country. We are sitting here discussing
tied selling. It is a very relevant subject for the House to be
discussing. However, once again when we have an issue at hand
that is of concern to Canadians all across the country—
Mr. Richard M. Harris: They support tied selling.
Mr. Paul Bonwick: By the way, they support tied selling.
When we are dealing with a topic such as this, all of a sudden
they detract from the important and critical issue of the
finances of Canadians and go to the ethics of cabinet and the
ethics of the Prime Minister. They will not talk about their
own ethics. I put a question very—
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Actually the hon.
member for Souris—Moose Mountain will have to anticipate the
question because he has exactly 25 seconds to make his point.
Mr. Roy Bailey: Mr. Speaker, I take a bit of resentment
from the inference that I was not being fair. Let me tell the
hon. member that I am one of the fairest men he will ever take a
look at, and he should take a good look at me right now. What I
am talking about—
An hon. member: Tied selling.
Mr. Roy Bailey: Yes, indeed, it is tied selling and
anything related to the selling of the House to Canadians. That
is what I am talking about.
Mr. Bob Kilger: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I
move that we proceed to orders of the day.
Mr. Richard M. Harris: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. When you called for a resumption of debate, the hon.
member for Calgary East was quite prepared to stand and continue
the debate. Unfortunately he was missed. I wanted to bring that
to your attention.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The Chair is deeply
indebted to the hon. member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley.
The hon. member for Stormont—Dundas—Charlottenburgh has moved
that the House do now proceed to orders of the day. Is it the
pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
1600
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those in favour
of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): All those opposed
will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): In my opinion the
yeas have it.
An hon. member: On division.
(Motion agreed to)
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[Translation]
CRIMINAL RECORDS ACT
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (for the Solicitor General of Canada)
moved that Bill C-69, an act to amend the Criminal Records Act
and to amend another act in consequence, be read for the second
time and referred to a committee.
Mr. Jacques Saada (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to
rise to speak to and comment on the motion at second reading of
Bill C-69.
Since coming to power, our government has shown through specific
actions its desire to thoroughly reform our criminal system, by
passing, for example, a number of administrative and legislative
measures to prevent the sexual exploitation of children.
First off, in 1995, our government passed amendments to the
Corrections and Conditional Release Act to allow, among other
things, certain offenders to be kept in prison until the very
last day of their sentence, if it had been shown that they were
likely to commit another sexual offence against a child.
In 1997, we added a new category of offender to the Criminal
Code, that of long term offender, which applies to sexual
offenders and provides for their surveillance for up to ten
years after the end of their sentence.
In 1995, we created the national flagging system, which through
the intermediary or the use of the Canadian police information
centre, which I will call the CPIC throughout my text, enables
prosecutors to better identify and try violent offenders, under
the provisions of the Criminal Code pertaining to dangerous
offenders.
The national screening system, created in 1994, also uses
information from the CPIC on criminal records to help certain
agencies identify child molesters seeking work where they could
be in contact with children.
The planned measures will therefore allow the organizations
concerned to protect the vulnerable individuals for whom they
are responsible. When we speak of vulnerable individuals, we
mean primarily all those who are more at risk than the rest of
the population, because of age, disability or handicap.
We have all heard about troubling cases where children having
been sexually abused by individuals in a position of trust. Of
course this has a devastating impact on the victims and their
families, but it also has one on the community as a whole.
In addition, the provincial and municipal governments, as well
as the volunteer organizations, adopt policies and practices
aimed at preventing such occurrences.
While a criminal record check by the police is an important
screening tool, this must not be considered the first, last, or
only method.
The organizations must have a reliable recruiting, training, and
supervision system. Any properly designed screening system must
make unqualified candidates, pedophiles included, withdraw of
their own accord, when they see how careful the organizations
are about selecting candidates and ensuring the safety and
protection of those for whom they are responsible.
1605
In this connection, I will refer briefly, but with the utmost
pride, to the very close collaboration that has been in place
since 1994 between the government and an organization called
Volunteer Canada, in promoting a national information campaign
on this important topic.
We produced educational material for distribution across Canada
via volunteer organizations and local communities. Thanks to
these measures, increasing numbers of organizations are gaining
an awareness of the importance of an effective screening
mechanism. Despite all that has been done, more needs to be
done, and we want to do more.
This is what is behind Bill C-69. It provides for a flagging
system. This system of flags for certain files has the support
of our provincial and territorial colleagues.
In fact, I would remind members that, during the past year, the
federal-provincial-territorial task force on high risk offenders
met on several occasions to discuss certain issues with respect
to information systems on sex offenders, and the pardon of sex
offenders.
It focused primarily on ways of simplifying police access to the
criminal records of pardoned sex offenders.
Following its discussions, the task force produced a report
containing ten recommendations, one of which specifically deals
with the flagging system the CPIC should adopt to identify
criminal records of pardoned sex offenders. This report
received the approval of federal, provincial and territorial
justice ministers at their October 1998 meeting.
Right now, the provisions of the Criminal Records Act and
administrative guidelines allow access to the sealed records of
pedophiles, particularly when the police are looking for a
criminal record. Naturally, when the police know or suspect
that an individual with a record has been granted a pardon, they
may, based on fingerprints, submit the sealed record to the
attention of the solicitor general.
However, if the police are unaware that a pardon has been
granted, they do not necessarily look up fingerprints while they
search for a criminal record. In such a case, a normal query of
the CPIC system does not reveal the existence of a criminal
record for which a pardon has been granted.
So that the procedure I have just described can apply in all
cases—I repeat, in all cases—where a pardoned sex offender is
being screened prior to being given a position of trust, Bill
C-69 proposes that such files be flagged.
A police officer doing a check would immediately see that a
pardon had been granted and that the file was sealed. He could
then apply to the solicitor general for permission to break the
seal.
This indicator appears only to police officers authorized to do
screening research at the request of an agency acting in good
faith and with the consent of the person the research is on.
These are important mechanisms intended to ensure the
credibility of the process. By requiring finger prints be
taken, we are making sure the person in question is correctly
identified.
The new arrangement will have retroactive effect, so that the
files of rehabilitated individuals already in the system may
have these indicators attached to them.
The bill also contains provisions guaranteeing the rights of
rehabilitated individuals. Only authorized police officers and
officials responsible for applying the law will have access to
the information on the offenders, and each applicant must sign a
consent form in this regard. By requiring this consent, we give
applicants the choice of having their job application processed
or of withdrawing it.
If they refuse to co-operate, applicants will be making it clear
to the agency responsible that they are not perhaps the best
individuals for the job.
Bill C-69 will also continue to give the solicitor general the
discretionary power to remove the seal on the file of a
rehabilitated individual.
1610
As there is no reason to think that the minister's use of his
current discretionary power is causing a problem, we must keep
it to ensure the integrity of the system.
The government also carefully re-examined the legislative
provisions of Bill C-69 to ensure they are in keeping with the
provisions of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and
the Canadian Human Rights Act.
We therefore have the national police data bank, the CPIC, the
Canadian police information centre, which is operated by the
RCMP on behalf of all police services. This bank contains
information on offenders' criminal records.
We also have the national screening system I referred to before,
by which employers or volunteer groups working with children and
other vulnerable individuals may require a record check of
applicants as a condition for hiring or for volunteer work.
In conjunction with the notation system proposed in Bill C-69,
the CPIC and the national screening system are designed to
prevent sex offenders from infiltrating positions of trust.
Some people may wonder “Why not do away with pardons, or
considerably restrict access to them?”
As we know, a pardon allows persons found guilty of a criminal
offence, who have served their sentence and proven that they
have become law-abiding citizens, to have their records sealed.
Those making this request have led crime-free lives for an
average of eight years before applying for pardon.
The fact that the majority of pardoned individuals live as
honest citizens is clear proof that ex-offenders can indeed
become law-abiding members of the community.
In my opinion, it is important to defend the principle of
pardon, while taking care not to diminish the integrity of the
sytem and making changes which will help provide children and
other vulnerable groups with better protection.
I would like to conclude with a comment that may be a bit
unusual for this House.
In this process, on behalf of the Solicitor General, and with
his approval, I pledged before the Standing Committee on Justice
and Human Rights that we would do everything in our power to
speed up the process of getting Bill C-69 to a committee if it
passes second reading. There, it will be able to be examined by
serious and conscientious people with one common goal: to
protect our population, particularly our children and people
with certain disabilities.
Today, I would like to pay tribute to all the political parties
represented in this House, which have helped ensure that this
will be possible.
[English]
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
appreciate the comments of the hon. member opposite.
For the benefit of those who are listening today and also for
those who are in the House, I think we should clarify the issue
which Bill C-69 is attempting to address.
In Canada today many people do not realize what a pardon is. I
always thought when there was a pardon it meant that some new
information had come to light and the person had been convicted
wrongly, was not guilty of the offence and, therefore, they were
pardoned and the whole record was struck.
However, that is not the case in Canada with the way our parole
board and pardons division work. What happens in Canada today is
that once a person has been convicted, sentenced and then
released on parole, if they have not been caught committing
another offence and have not re-offended, they can apply for a
pardon.
Many people do apply for pardons. Let me quote some numbers for
the clarification of those listening.
When a person applies for a pardon, what are their chances of
getting it? According to the National Parole Board records for
the last number of years, only about 1% of the total decisions
that it makes every year are denials. In 1996-97 there were over
18,000 decisions made with respect to pardons. Of those
decisions, 184 were denials, which is about 1%, and 12,566
pardons were granted for mixed indictable offences or summary
offences. In effect, about 96% of the people who applied for
pardons received them. It is almost a fait accompli.
1615
The effect of a pardon is that a person's record is now sealed,
hidden, and no one will ever know they had this on their record.
This bill would allow, in certain circumstances, for that
pardoned record to be opened. We think that is laudable and it
is consistent with a bill which our party put forward, which has
been in the House for some time, Bill C-284, which calls for
basically the same thing. The government has come forward with
its bill which has followed ours in the same vein.
The type of pardons that we want to bring to light are the ones
that relate to sexual offences, particularly sexual offences
against children. There are some good reasons for that when we
look at the recidivism rates of those people who are involved in
that kind of thing.
The government member equated a pardon with being rehabilitated.
From government studies we can see that just because a person has
received a pardon for a grievous offence, such as a sexual
offence against children, the recidivism rates are so high that
we cannot equate a pardon with rehabilitation.
A report was prepared by Corrections Research and Development,
which is a government department, concerning child molester
recidivism. It states:
The initial follow-up of the child molesters found that 42% were
reconvicted of a sexual or violent crime during the 15 to 30 year
follow-up period.... The highest rate of recidivism, 77%, was for
those with previous sexual offences, who selected extrafamilial
boy victims, and who were never married.
This is a 15 to 30 year program with rates as high as 77%.
A report to the federal, provincial and territorial ministers on
information systems on sex offenders against children stated:
Reconvictions underestimates the rate of reoffending—as only a
fraction of the sexual offences against children result in the
offender being convicted. Consequently, the proportion of child
molesters in the present study who reoffended would be expected
to be greater than 50%, but the precise proportion is difficult
to estimate. All the men could have reoffended, but only half
got caught.
Hon. members can see that the concern is the rate of recidivism,
and rightly so I would submit.
What about the ability of our medical profession and our
institutions to rehabilitate people who are in this situation?
Again I quote from a government report by the Correctional
Service of Canada, entitled “Factors Related to Recidivism Among
Released Federal Sex Offenders”. It states:
It is notable that the pedophile group had the highest rate of
sexual recidivism relative to incest offenders or rapists.... This
finding suggests that pedophiles may be more persistent with
respect to committing sex crimes over time.
Another report of the Correctional Service of Canada states:
Does sex offender treatment work? We are still uncertain. There
is disagreement even amongst the most prolific and knowledgeable
researchers in the area.
As hon. members can see, the whole concept of rehabilitating
people who have fallen to this level of depravity is in question.
Therefore, the whole premise of giving pardons to people who have
not been caught is a moot point and in fact puts our children at
risk. That is why, in some ways, I am glad that Bill C-69 has
come forward. However, later I will make the point that it needs
to be strengthened.
Who should have access to this information if there is a
pardoned record out there? It is our premise and the premise of
the bill that we put forward that the key people who should have
access to this information are those who are hiring people or
bringing in volunteers to look after children.
These organizations want to know that every possible check has
been made to ensure that those they are bringing in to care for
the children which they are responsible for have been thoroughly
examined and that they are not putting their children at risk or
putting these people back in a situation where they will fall
prey to old problems.
1620
We questioned various groups. We looked for support on this
issue and we asked how they felt about it. We have support from
groups right across the country. I have in my hand a list of 40
different national child care organizations which desperately are
asking why we are hiding these pardoned pedophile records from
them when they are bringing people on board. What is the point of
not informing them of this kind of information? They want
change.
These groups include the Adoption Council of Canada, boys and
girls clubs, Canadians Addressing Sexual Exploitation, minor
hockey associations, and even The Sheldon Kennedy Foundation.
These groups point out that people who are predisposed to this
type of depravity work to put themselves in positions of trust or
care over children. They purposely do it. That is why we need
to make every attempt to protect children from this situation.
We have also heard from the YMCA and, interestingly enough, the
Minister of Justice and Attorney General and the Minister of
Family and Social Services from my province of Alberta. Both of
those ministers have sent strong letters endorsing the bill which
we put forward, Bill C-284, which requires passing along
information concerning pardoned records to groups which care for
children. In some ways Bill C-69 attempts to do the same thing.
It is probably not surprising to anyone that all of these groups
want access to this information. We all say publicly that we
want to do all we can to care for children. It is important and
incumbent upon this House that we make every move possible and I
am glad we are debating this bill today.
There are some key points in Bill C-69 which need to be
strengthened. This bill is the weaker sister of Bill C-284,
which was brought forward some months back and is now before the
justice committee. Bill C-69 proposes to possibly extend—and
possibly is the key word here—greater background check
information to a person or organization responsible for the
well-being of one or more children, or vulnerable persons, or to
the person to whom the application has been made for a volunteer
position. The government is saying that possibly it will release
this information under Bill C-69.
Bill C-69 states that certain criminal records for which a
pardon has been granted or issued would be flagged in the system,
retroactively if necessary, as part of the criminal convictions
retrieval system. That is a good idea. We support it. However,
it does not specify which offences would be flagged. It states
that those will later be mentioned in the regulations. We have
not seen those regulations. We are not sure exactly which ones
are going to be included and which are not. When this bill goes
to committee we will be calling for a clear disclosure of which
offences will be included in the regulations under by Bill C-69
because they are not explicit in the legislation.
Section 6.3 of Bill C-69 requires the consent of the job
applicant, in writing, for the authorities to check to see if
there is a flagged criminal record. I do not have a problem with
that, but even when the person has given consent the solicitor
general still has the authority not to disclose this information
to the hiring body. It seems strange to me that a person can
give consent for his pardoned record to be checked, after it has
been confirmed that he is applying for a position of trust or
care over children, and yet the solicitor general will not make
it automatic that this group know the person's past. The
government wants to continue to have the discretion to say that
it will decide in every case whether it will release this
information.
1625
It is hard to understand why the solicitor general might choose
not to release this information if the applicant himself or
herself has already approved its release.
This concerns me. We have been pardoning pedophiles for 20
years and we have never released this information. There is a
lengthy process involved to get it. It is so lengthy and
cumbersome that most people do not even know it exists. We have
never made any attempt to advise people that they could be
bringing on board someone who has been pardoned of a sexual
offence against children.
Will anything change with Bill C-69? We are still leaving the
discretion in the hands of the solicitor general. If we know
there is a risk, and the person has signed off on it, it seems to
me that it should be automatic, as opposed to more red tape and
more bureaucracy.
There is a real problem with this. Julian Fantino, head of the
police association, said the police are put in a difficult
position because of Bill C-69. An organization requests to have
a record checked. The person signs off on information with
respect to his pardon and criminal activity. They go in and find
that there is a flag for a pardon. Under Bill C-69 the police
could not tell the hiring organization that the flag is there
because they would be violating the Canadian Human Rights Act for
revealing that there is a pardoned record. It has to go all the
way up the ladder and all the way back down, and they still may
not be able to give the information if the solicitor general says
no.
That puts the police in a very difficult situation. If the
conditions are met, we should be releasing the information. That
is one of the amendments we will be calling for and that is
consistent with what is called for in Bill C-284 which is already
before the committee.
In the same vein, Bill C-284 calls for an amendment to the
Canadian Human Rights Act which would allow organizations which
are looking after children, or other vulnerable individuals, to
make a decision not to hire if they find that someone has a
pardoned record for a sexual offence against children. They
could make a decision not to hire and not be later dragged into
court for violating someone's human rights because of making that
decision based on the existence of a pardoned record.
As crazy as that sounds, the fact is that if people are not
hired because of a pardoned record their rights are being
violated. Therefore, we thought it necessary to include, as
advised by legal counsel of the House, a clause in the Canadian
Human Rights Act that would allow these organizations to make a
decision not to hire and not be held accountable for breaching
the Canadian Human Rights Act.
This has not been touched by Bill C-69 and I think that it opens
up children's organizations to all kinds of new litigation and
liability should they decide not to hire someone who has a
pardoned record.
The government is again following Reform's lead by putting
forward legislation which the solicitor general initially
opposed. He opposed Bill C-284 when it was introduced. Now he
has introduced a weaker sister, a look alike bill, under his own
name, Bill C-69.
Part of the reason he has done that is because there has been
such strong public support for Bill C-284, which has come in the
form of letters and petitions. In fact, the whole reason the
bill came to the House and was passed on second reading was
because of a 25,000 name petition from parents and children's
organization who were saying that they had to have access to this
kind of information.
1630
We have seen the government come forward with its own bill, Bill
C-69. As it is presently worded, Bill C-69 only goes part of the
way toward better protecting our most vulnerable. It puts too
much discretion in the hands of the solicitor general, the same
solicitor general who has held this information for 20 years and
not revealed it to these same children's organizations. There is
discretion all the way up in Bill C-69 as to whether or not these
organizations will be informed of the pardoned record.
All the criteria has been met. A children's organization is
hiring somebody to look after children. The person has agreed
that his or her record can be checked including the pardoned
record. But that record is still not going to be released without
the solicitor general's okay.
By not requiring disclosure once the criteria is met and the
consent is given, or specifying the type of crimes it is aimed
at, Bill C-69 is much weaker than Bill C-284 which is at
committee.
By not amending the Canadian Human Rights Act which I just
mentioned, Bill C-69 opens up children's organizations and
agencies caring for vulnerable individuals to liability and
litigation by an individual who feels that he or she was
discriminated against on the basis of his or her pardoned record.
Even with the shortcomings of Bill C-69, Reform still supports
its intent. However, we would much rather work with the current
Bill C-284 at committee stage. It essentially proposes the same
thing as the bill the solicitor general has belatedly introduced
here. We have expressed our desire to work with both bills and
to work with the solicitor general by accepting amendments to
Bill C-284 in committee and combining them on the merits of both
bills.
By co-operating at committee stage the House will not have to
start at square one in the legislative process as the solicitor
general is proposing with Bill C-69. After passing second
reading it took four months to get Bill C-284 to its current
committee stage. We can see what might be entailed in a
potential delay of starting back at second reading of Bill C-69.
It is good today that we are moving ahead to get both these bills
in committee at the same time.
We hope the solicitor general will go beyond partisan politics
and ensure prompt passage of strengthened legislation that will
better protect our children from individuals who are predisposed
to targeting and victimizing the most innocent of our society,
our children. In the days ahead we look forward to bringing
forward strengthening amendments to both bills in committee and
coming back to the House with an improved package that will go
through third reading quickly, then on to the Senate and
eventually into law.
[Translation]
Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to speak to such an important topic, all the more so
with you in the Chair.
Such a bill, with the particular objectives it has, exemplifies
how all members of this House can work together constructively.
In fact, a comparison of Bill C-284 and Bill C-69 will be
edifying.
Bill C-69 provides a mechanism for disclosing the contents of an
individual's criminal record to the appropriate authorities in
cases of sex offences.
As my colleagues pointed out earlier, the purpose of this bill
is to prevent serious repeat sex offences against children or
other vulnerable members of our society.
What would this bill actually do? It would introduce a system
to flag sex offences so as to limit the number of situations in
which a person found guilty of a sexual offence, indecent
assault or whatever, could again come into contact with or take
up a position of authority over children or other vulnerable
individuals.
1635
Specifically, the purpose of this bill is to prevent a pardoned
sex offender from becoming a care provider, a supervisor at a
park or a children's recreational facility, or a day care
worker, or being in any position where he could take advantage
of the innocence of a child.
Bill C-69 could apply to special care facilities for the mentally
handicapped or to support services to help them prepare for
living on their own.
As a society, we have too often heard of cases of sexual abuse
committed by repeat offenders who had officially been pardoned.
The purpose of the bill is to respond to requests by
associations promoting the rights of victims of criminal acts
and, more importantly, to ensure a safe environment, something
we all want as a community, in which our children, our most
valuable asset, may grow and develop.
The mechanism I spoke of at the start of my remarks is an
indicator, a sort of warning light, that follows the pardoned
record of a sexual offender and is activated when a security
check is made on the reliability of the individual, who is
seeking work that would put him or her in contact with children.
I can already hear the hardline libertarians railing against
such a practice, given that a pardoned sexual offender is
officially rehabilitated as an individual who respects the law
and the ethics guiding our society.
To them, I would say, there are never enough ways to ensure the
security and development of our children.
Naturally, Bill C-69 takes account of the guarantee of
confidentiality inherent in rehabilitation and for this reason
security checks must be done with the approval of the applicant.
This check will be done in the national screening system under
the Canadian police information centre by individuals duly
authorized to consult the register.
Should the famous warning light come on, under the law the
record and its contents would be sent to the solicitor general,
who would ultimately decide on the relevance of removing the
seal from the record.
Here the big question arises. It represents a major concern for
the Bloc Quebecois. Should the solicitor general not be obliged
to reveal the contents of the record that are of a sexual nature
simply as a precautionary measure for children and society?
We think the minister's discretion could apply to the contents
of the record where they apply to other issues, except those of
a sexual nature. In simpler words, the minister, in the case of
sexual offences, must reveal the content of the criminal record;
he may do so for all other cases. He would continue to enjoy
discretionary powers in all other cases.
If this means we might save a child, who would otherwise be a
victim of sexual aggression, I think the bill would have served
its purpose.
The wording of the bill indicates that the minister may inform
the appropriate authorities of the contents of the record in
question. We are, however, of the opinion that there is a moral
obligation for the Solicitor General to disclose its contents
when it includes a listed offence. As I have said, this moral
obligation ought to be translated into a legal one.
Of course, this security check poses a threat to children or
other vulnerable individuals. With this adjustment, the
government might better attain the objective of its bill. It
might even, I believe, benefit from the unanimous support of
this House, even that of my colleagues in the Reform Party, who
are somewhat unenthusiastic about Bill C-69.
The government would also have to continue to heed our
recommendations and proposals, including those the Bloc
Quebecois will bring to the committee.
I would like to return briefly to the verification system
itself. As I said, these checks would be done via the national
screening system administered by the Canadian Police Information
Centre.
1640
In an article in this morning's Ottawa Citizen, journalist Jim
Bronskill describes the technological obsolescence of the CPIC's
data bank computers.
This is, in my opinion, an unacceptable situation, and it is the
responsibility of the federal government to ensure proper
funding for this body, which provides frontline information to
some 13,400 police forces all across Canada.
Early this year, in March, we MPs had the opportunity to learn
more about this matter from the Canadian Police Association at
its annual legislative conference, held right here in Ottawa.
I had an opportunity, as did several of my colleagues in the
House, to discuss the issue with Yves Prud'homme, the president
of the Fédération québécoise des policiers et policières du
Québec, and to actually meet in my office with police officers
from all over Quebec and Canada.
The Bloc Quebecois sees Bill C-69 as one more step along the road
to ensuring our children's safety, but we must make sure that we
have reliable records in the national screening system so that
we can implement this political and collective wish.
This brings me to another point. Do we have real and effective
guarantees regarding the turnaround for analysing files
submitted to the CPIC that could eventually end up in the
solicitor general's office?
There is the matter of the time it takes for a file to make it
all the way up to the solicitor general's office and back down
again. Bloc Quebecois members have some questions and concerns
about the speed with which files could be processed.
There is nothing in the bill right now to allay our concerns.
However, I hope that the government will take note and introduce
specific provisions so as to prevent any loopholes that would
threaten the safety of our children.
After this brief overview of the bill, I urge Liberal
backbenchers as well to pressure the solicitor general to put
more teeth into Bill C-69 and make it more consistent with the
problems we are actually facing.
The Bloc Quebecois therefore supports this bill so that it can
be referred quickly to committee for consideration.
As I said at the very beginning of my speech, a comparison with
Bill C-284 will be edifying. Finally, a positive response to our
concerns would help to ensure speedy passage of this bill to
ensure the well-being and safety of our children and vulnerable
members of our society.
[English]
Mr. Peter Mancini (Sydney—Victoria, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
it is a pleasure to follow the hon. member for Charlevoix with
whom I have had discussions on this bill and who sits on the
justice committee with me.
It is also a pleasure to say that for the second time in two
days we see the beginning of some co-operation between all
parties in this House on a particular measure that is important
to the people of Canada.
Yesterday we had an opportunity to discuss in this House the
unanimous report of the justice committee dealing with victims of
crime. The speeches yesterday reflected the commitment of all
parties to ensure that those people who are victims of crime have
a role to play in the criminal justice system.
For those who are watching on CPAC and for those who read
Hansard it is important to know that government sometimes
can work together with others. That is not to say there are not
some areas in this bill that need addressing and they have been
raised by other members in the House.
We in the New Democratic Party will ensure that this important
legislation gets to the justice committee as quickly as possible.
It deals with protecting those who are most vulnerable in our
society, children and adults who may be vulnerable.
This has always been the commitment of the New Democratic Party.
It is why we have always pushed for inquiries into child poverty.
It is why we have always ensured that the disabled are protected
under human rights legislation. We in the New Democratic Party
recognize that the strength of our society is measured in the way
it protects those who are most vulnerable.
We applaud this piece of legislation. It is important to know
that it did come forward in another bill, a private member's bill
which is now before the justice committee.
Recognizing that there was mounting support for that, the
solicitor general drafted his own legislation and introduced it
to the House a few days ago and it will now go to committee.
1645
That legislation does a number of things. It attempts to
protect children from pedophiles. The mechanism by which it
allows that responds to those many groups that have been
mentioned by other speakers, the boys and girls clubs, the YMCA.
I was the president of the board of directors of the YMCA in my
own community. We had to deal on an ongoing basis with hiring
people, with volunteers who came in to work with children. We
had to ensure that we were not submitting the children to any
kind of risk.
I also recall in my own riding when an organization through no
fault of its own did find itself subject to litigation. One of
its volunteers was found to have abused children in the care of
that organization. The community was concerned. That
organization, which had good principles and laudable goals, was
set back many years.
Those organizations will be pleased to see this legislation come
before the House today.
It would be remiss if we did not say that for a long time in
this society we did not recognize that children and vulnerable
people could be the subject of criminal actions of a sexual
nature. It is to the credit and strength of character of the
many people who have come forward in the last few years. The
Sheldon Kennedy organization has been mentioned. Children and
adults have come forward to expose what has happened to them.
Whether it was at Mount Cashel, residential schools, hockey
rinks, it takes tremendous courage to come forward. Today, by
the passage and examination of this legislation, I think we are
responding to those needs in our society.
I echo the comments I made yesterday. It is important to
recognize there has to be a balance. Where we have to be careful
with this legislation is in the protection of human rights and
the protection of privacy. This bill makes an effort and we will
examine it very closely in committee to ensure that it meets all
the qualifications so that privacy is protected.
One of the good things in the bill and one of the things we
pushed for in the private member's bill was that the individuals
who apply to work with children in an organization be notified.
They have to give their consent to the searching of their records
to see if they have been pardoned for any kind of sex offence
against children. By ensuring they have to consent to that, we
allow them to withdraw their names if that is the way they want
to go, or to allow them to know this check is taking place.
The member for Calgary Centre spoke to this and raised some very
good questions. I think they are questions we will examine in
committee. I expect he, our party, the Bloc and the Progressive
Conservative Party will bring forward amendments to the
legislation to ensure that it meets both of those needs. The
member made some good points but there are some other points I
have to raise in response to what he said.
The hon. member discussed what pardons were and how many people
receive pardons. It is important to note that 97% of those who
receive pardons never reoffend. There is some indication that
those who receive pardons are deserving. We are a human system.
There are those who do reoffend and perhaps they ought not to
have been granted a pardon. A 3% error rate is not perfect, but
it does justify that the pardon is appropriate for the other 97%
who have not reoffended.
Many pardons are granted for things other than sexual offences.
It is important for people to understand that the vast majority
are for shoplifting offences that occurred 20 years ago, or a
disturbing the peace charge that happened when someone was in
university. They may have been minor incidents but they provide
those persons with criminal records for the rest of their lives.
When they apply for a position where they have to be bonded,
where they cannot have a criminal record, they may lose that job
for that kind of thing. The pardon is there for a purpose.
My colleague from Calgary Centre talked about the recidivism
rate of pedophiles. He is right. We are right to be concerned
about that.
When we talk about pardons, it is important to understand that in
order to receive a pardon, one must have been clear of any
reoffence for at least eight years. If there is a high rate of
recidivism among pedophiles, one would hope they are not getting
pardons. Clearly if that reoffence happens in four or five
years, they are not going to receive that pardon. That being
said, we can never be too cautious when it comes to protecting
the innocent and the vulnerable.
1650
Some of the sections of this proposed law we support strongly in
the New Democratic Party. We think it is important there be
measures to ensure that the criminal records of pardoned sex
offenders seeking positions of trust are available for screening
purposes by placing a flag on the records of the sex offender so
that police can be alerted and that a sealed pardoned record
exists and that the police can request that record and request
from the solicitor general authorization to open it. It is
important for those organizations and for the protection of the
children that those amendments be made to the law.
As I have indicated, it is important that the individual be
advised that that is going to happen. They can then disclose to
the organization themselves that such a record exists, or they
will know at least that it will be brought forward. If they have
nothing to fear, then they have nothing to fear.
There are questions however and some of them were raised by
other speakers. In the interests of time I will not go through
all of them. There is some question as to discretion and why the
discretion would be permitted to the police to notify the
organization or not. I question why that discretion exists. As a
member of the justice committee, it is one I look forward to
debating at committee.
I am struck that perhaps that discretion ought to be there in
case of an error, but I cannot imagine that this type of check
would result in an error. One would hope it would not. Even if
there were three John Smiths who applied for a position with an
organization dealing with children and one of those John Smiths
had been pardoned for a sexual offence, one would hope that there
would be a way of distinguishing that person from the others.
These and other questions have to be raised in committee. They
will be. I think there is broad based support for this
legislation among all parties. I hope and expect at the justice
committee that the amendments will be brought forward in the same
way and accepted in the same way. I have to say that in my
experience on the justice committee, for the most part that is
what happens and it results in legislation like we had the other
day.
If we can work together on this in an all-party fair manner in
the interests of our children and those who are vulnerable, it
may well bring forward in a timely fashion legislation to protect
our children. We in the New Democratic Party are committed to
that and that is the spirit in which we will approach this
legislation.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is the House ready
for the question?
Some hon. members: Question.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Is it the pleasure
of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): I declare the motion
carried. Accordingly the bill stands referred to the Standing
Committee on Justice and Human Rights.
(Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to
a committee)
* * *
YOUTH CRIMINAL JUSTICE ACT
The House resumed from April 15 consideration of the motion that
Bill C-68, an act in respect of criminal justice for young
persons and to amend and repeal other acts, be read the second
time and referred to a committee; and of the amendment.
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I rise
today to speak to Bill C-68, the youth criminal justice act.
Before I proceed, I would like to take this opportunity to
commend my colleague from Surrey North for his prompt and
critical review of this long awaited piece of legislation.
As stated in an earlier speech, my Reform colleague lends
credibility to this debate based on a personal tragedy that
hopefully none of us here will ever endure. That was the murder
of his son.
1655
In December 1995, more than four years ago, I undertook a
preliminary review of the youth justice system. My initial
findings were circulated among my colleagues in the Reform Party.
I would like to share with the House some of the content of the
opening paragraphs of this paper which began with a historical
overview of our youth justice system.
The Juvenile Delinquents Act enacted in 1908 created a juvenile
justice system separate from the adult system. The Juvenile
Delinquents Act was distinctively child welfare oriented with a
guiding philosophy behind the act defining “a child having
committed delinquency not as an offender but as a person in the
condition of delinquency”.
The Juvenile Delinquents Act created an informal system of
justice with little emphasis on legal rights. A range of justice
officials, including judges, probation officers and correction
officials, had very significant discretion in dealing with young
offenders. With this treatment rather than punishment
orientation, sentences were indeterminate to be served until
rehabilitation was effected.
The discretionary nature of the Juvenile Delinquents Act and the
rehabilitation objective caused very substantial interprovincial
variations in the implementation of the act.
Recognizing that the exclusively welfare oriented focus of the
Juvenile Delinquents Act was not appropriate and to reduce
judicial discretion, the process of reforming the Juvenile
Delinquents Act began in the 1960s. It was not however until the
early 1980s with the introduction of the charter of rights and
freedoms that major juvenile justice reform became inevitable.
The Juvenile Delinquents Act was inconsistent with the emphasis
on due process in the charter. According to a 1994 Ottawa Law
Review, the provincial disparities in treatment of juveniles
permitted under the Juvenile Delinquents Act was considered to be
contrary to section 15 of the charter that came into effect in
1985 which guaranteed equality before the law.
The Young Offenders Act enacted in 1984 gave youth very
significant legal rights and established a uniform age
jurisdiction of 12 to 18 years. The Young Offenders Act also
provided determinate sentencing and formal alternative measure
programs to divert less serious cases from youth court.
The new youth criminal justice act will effectively re-enact
that contentious portion of the Juvenile Delinquents Act, the
portion that wrongfully promoted an inequitable application of
the criminal law. This new act provides far too much discretion
to the courts in the sentencing of young offenders. The only
real direction provided to the courts is to order the less
restrictive sentence.
I turn now to lines 22 to 25 of the preamble of the youth
criminal justice act which read “take reasonable steps to
prevent youth crime by addressing its underlying causes, to
respond to the needs of young persons”.
The justice system cannot address the root causes of crime,
causes that cannot and should not be used as excuses for
committing crime. The justice system must deal and deal
effectively with an offender after a crime has been committed to
provide the necessary public protection regardless of the
offender's background.
Forces outside the justice system must deal with the causes of
crime through the design and implementation of crime prevention
policies and programs, programs such as the headstart program
sponsored by my hon. colleague from Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca.
The justice system was not designed to deal with dysfunctional
families, nor was it designed to address the economic hardships
that often led to family breakdowns and to juvenile crime. The
current and past governments' failure to recognize this simple
fact has diluted the purpose and strength of our justice system,
particularly in the area of youth crime to the point where young
criminals are somehow not responsible and therefore not
accountable for their delinquent behaviour.
This fact is reflected in many of the lenient sentences that
have been and will continue to be handed out to young offenders.
Two years ago this April, the Standing Committee on Justice and
Legal Affairs tabled a comprehensive report containing 14
recommendations for amending the Young Offenders Act.
1700
The report was a result of six months of extensive consultation
and travel throughout the country at an expense of almost half a
million dollars. Over 300 people representing various sectors of
the youth justice system and society in general testified before
the committee. That testimony was incorporated into the
committee's report.
On April 22, 1997, on behalf of the Reform Party I published a
minority report containing 17 recommendations and proposing a
comprehensive three pronged approach to deal with the
complexities of youth crime and the contributing factors,
including early detection and intervention as an effective means
of crime prevention, community based resolution and sentences in
cases of minor offences, and strengthening the Young Offenders
Act through significant amendments.
Two years after the Reform Party proposed such a plan the
Liberal government introduced a youth criminal justice act. We
are obviously pleased the minister incorporated some of our
proposals, and of course not all, into the new act. In
particular we fully support, as we recommended years ago, the use
of early detection and intervention and the diversion of
non-violent and minor offenders to community formed justice
groups such as the very successful programs in Sparwood and Maple
Ridge, British Columbia.
We also support providing police officers with the necessary
discretion and power to deal with non-violent offenders
informally. I recommend however that this discretion not be
taken away from parents, teachers or any other person in a
position of authority.
Currently there is a movement under way spearheaded by a Liberal
senator to repeal section 43 of the Criminal Code which protects
those in a position of authority if they use reasonable force in
the correction of a child. We do not however accept the
minister's checkerboard approach to justice that appears to be
the crux of the new youth criminal justice act.
This act, as stated earlier, provides far too much discretion to
the youth courts. This will result in an inequitable application
of youth criminal law across the country, which was a major
motivation for changing the old juvenile delinquents act in the
first place.
We also do not accept the minister's outright rejection of what
I consider to be the two most important recommendations of the
standing committee. The minister has refused to accept the
committee's recommendation to lower the age of criminality to
encompass 10 and 11 year olds in limited circumstances, and she
has rejected publishing the names of all violent offenders.
The first and guiding principle of the new youth criminal
justice act should be the protection of society. The only way to
ensure the safety of our children and grandchildren is to provide
parents with the names of all violent and dangerous offenders,
which in my opinion include drug traffickers. This category of
offender has wrongly been missed in the new legislation.
With regard to lowering the age of criminality to 10 years,
Professor Nicholas Bala of Queen's University summarized the work
of a 1992 Statistics Canada survey of 27 police forces in Canada.
The data indicated that offending behaviour by children under 12
was a significant problem. The study further indicated children
under the age of 12 committed about 5% of all youth crime.
Despite this fact, authorities are powerless to hold these
children legally responsible for their crimes. Although a number
of provinces do have a child welfare system that can and does
deal with these children adequately, many provinces do not.
Repeatedly witnesses told the standing committee on justice that
in the case of violent offences a welfare response is
inappropriate. Lowering the age to 10 years does not mean there
would be a large influx of 10 and 11 year old children being
drawn into the court system. The system can divert most children
of this age away from any formal response, in particular with
support for alternative measures and community based justice
committees.
By amending the age we will have in those very few cases of
violent offences the means to provide these young children with
the rehabilitation they need. As it stands now the minister has
abandoned 10 and 11 year olds who by committing criminal acts
signal they are in need of help. The minister has abandoned
these children to the provinces that do not have the
constitutional authority to legislate against criminal acts.
I want to sum up my concerns about the bill by pointing out the
most unacceptable portion of it. The minister has attempted to
create the impression that she has listened to the people and
mandated in law the changes they have been asking for in the
Young Offenders Act. This is not the case.
1705
All the minister has done is provide the courts with the
discretion to do so. Many courts may not share the same concerns
as the majority of Canadians and, through the exercise of their
discretion provided for in the bill, refuse to mandate what the
people have asked for. It is the people through their elected
representatives who should determine the law, not the courts.
For years Canadians have asked the government to make specific
changes to the Young Offenders Act. These changes include the
publication of names of all violent offenders, and particularly
repeat violent offenders. They wanted the mandatory attendance
of parents in court with their children. They wanted the
lowering of the age of criminality to include 10 and 11 year
olds, as I mentioned earlier, and the application of adult
sentences for all serious crime. In each and every case the
courts should be mandated to impose the sentences for which the
people have asked and with which the minister has indicated she
has complied.
Under the new act the courts have not been mandated. Instead
the minister has given the courts the discretion to implement
these changes or ignore them. This is wrong. Canadians should
make the law through their elected representatives. The courts
should interpret and impose that law so that the will of the
people of the country is reflected through the decisions made
within our courts and by the sentences imposed by our courts.
The bill falls far short of this simple democratic principle. It
leads to the very serious concern in some groups in the country
that there is a great deal of judicial activism which, if I could
just touch on it for a moment, I believe is unfortunate.
The blame should not be placed at the feet of our judges but
rather on our legislators for providing open ended legislation
which allows the courts to make decisions that are not supported
by the majority of Canadians. Over the last number of years and
certainly since I have been in the House, the people of Canada
have asked for changes within the Young Offenders Act.
I do not know if it has been deliberately done or not, but the
minister through this bill has created the unfortunate perception
that the wishes and the cries of Canadians for the last number of
years have been adhered to and that those demands for changes
have been implemented in the bill. They have not been mandated
at all. They are there, but we will see the status quo
maintained because in too many cases the courts will not embrace
the same concern for some of these offences as reflected by the
Canadian people. Therefore the courts have the discretion either
to implement an adult penalty for some of these offences or
simply impose the penalty under the Young Offenders Act or this
new act.
Very few if any of the changes the people of Canada have been
asking for are mandated. In other words we have not told the
courts what we want. We have not instructed the courts about the
kind of sentence we want for a offence such as murder, serious
assault, manslaughter and so on. Even those offences must be
tried in the youth court system. Then the crown must apply for
an adult sentence to be imposed. The defence can speak against
it, but it is left to the discretion of the judge as to whether
or not an adult sentence is imposed. The bill is deficient in
that way.
Inasmuch as it may have fooled the people, it is a very serious
matter that the government may have brought forward a bill which
has led people to believe the government has listened to their
cries for reasonable changes such as the publication of the names
of all young offenders who commit a violent offence or have a
series of violent offences on their records.
That again is left to the discretion of the courts. It is not
mandated that the names be publicized.
1710
My final point is on the appearance of parents or legal
guardians in court with their children. That is not mandated.
Again it is left to the discretion of the courts.
What do we have in the bill? We have the perception of change
where there may be no change at all. We will have to wait and
see. Some of the attorneys general of the provinces have already
expressed dismay over the principle contained in the bill, that
is the enormous discretion which will allow judges to make
varying decisions across the country. We think that is wrong.
We should not be going back to the checkerboard type of
legislation we had under the old juvenile delinquents act where
there was a varying of sentencing and adjudication from province
to province. We have gone back to that. There is not a
standardized form of sentencing implied within this statute.
It is deficient in that way, which I think is very unfortunate.
When the bill reaches committee stage and the clause by clause
amendments come forward, we hope the government will take a
serious look at the amendments we will be bringing forward to
close some of the loopholes we think the people will be dismayed
to see exist within the bill.
[Translation]
Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg, BQ): Madam Speaker, I am
always interested to hear the remarks of my colleague from
Crowfoot. Unfortunately, it is the Reform tape playing.
The minister tabled statistics no one disputes, which indicate
that crime among young people has dropped by 23%. In addition,
they also reveal, and no one disputes this either, that violent
crime by young people has also dropped by 3.2% since 1993.
We all know that, when the law is properly applied, as it is in
Quebec, it works well and to the satisfaction of all
stakeholders in the justice system.
Does my colleague from Crowfoot not think that instead of
changing something that works well, we should implement what
works well and make whatever changes are necessary after a trial
period? At the moment, before changes are proposed, does he not
think that the Young Offenders Act should be properly applied
throughout Canada, as it is now in Quebec?
[English]
Mr. Jack Ramsay: Madam Speaker, if my colleague thinks
the juvenile crime rate is okay in Quebec I disagree with him. I
disagree with the crime rate of juvenile offenders in Quebec. If
the crime rate is going down that is wonderful, but for years it
went up year after year after year. Now it is levelling off and
coming down a bit, which is wonderful. If there are methods to
account for that, let us emphasize those methods. Let us see
what we can do.
As I said in my opening comments, we are very much in favour of
the three pronged approach that is evident in Quebec to a greater
extent perhaps than in any other province where provincial
programs are set up. When a child is struggling in school with
aggressiveness or whatever, where it is clearly indicated that
the child and perhaps the parents need assistance, that is
provided.
We recommended that all provinces adopt that approach and
funding be set aside for it. At the second level we very much
embrace community committees such as the Sparwood and Maple Ridge
programs. I am sure there are programs like those in Quebec
where on the first or second minor offence children are taken not
into the court system but into the community system where they
can receive the assistance they need.
1715
If the acting out by these children is a sign or a signal to
society that they need help, surely we should be giving them that
help. We also wanted to encompass 10 and 11 year olds because we
felt the federal government had abandoned them. In the province
of Quebec perhaps there is a good program that looks after those
young people who are signalling by their misbehaviour that they
do need help.
We say the federal government, because it is the only authority
that can legislate in the area of criminal law, has abandoned
these young people who, by committing criminal offences, are
signalling everyone within seeing or hearing distance that they
need help. It has abandoned them.
That is why we urged the recommendation made by Professor Bala
and others; that under certain circumstances the justice system
have authority in this area to ensure that those young people
receive the type of rehabilitative treatment that obviously their
actions are signalling they need. We are very much in support of
that.
I want to touch on the point that perhaps the juvenile crime
rate is down. In so many areas, the offences committed by young
people are not even reported because the police tell us that they
cannot do anything about it.
If there is break and enter into a home, what answer is there
when the police are called? They say “Send us a list of the
items that have been stolen”. That is as far as it goes. At
one time the police used to come to every break and enter with
their fingerprint section and test for fingerprints. They do not
do it anymore because they do not have the budget for it. The
federal government has cut back in that particular area of law
enforcement and crime prevention. It is unfortunate that it is
doing that.
If there is one area in which we would like to see greater
spending it is in the area of helping our young children. We
say, save the ones we can, help the ones we can, but for those
who create a threat to our lives, we must not shrink from the use
of incarceration. However, if we do incarcerate them we must
make sure they get the help they need while they are there. I
hope that answers my colleague's question.
Mr. Mark Muise (West Nova, PC): Madam Speaker, would my
hon. colleague not think that instead of all the millions wasted
on the old Bill C-68 from the previous parliament, that those
millions of dollars could be better spent on this type of bill?
Mr. Jack Ramsay: Madam Speaker, my colleague has hit the
nail right on the head on this particular issue.
When Bill C-68, the firearms registration bill came in, we were
promised that it would cost no more than $85 million to
implement. Before a single firearm was registered last year, the
cost was over $200 million, and the government cuts the budget of
the RCMP. If we look at it carefully, it is cutting the RCMP
budget by over $20 million, but in what area? It is not in the
provincial area where there are provincial and municipal
contracts but in the federal area. What is it cutting down on?
It is cutting down on drug enforcement, organized crime and so
on.
Let us take a look at drug enforcement, the main revenue source
for organized crime which is responsible for bringing drugs into
our schoolyards that affect our children and contribute to this
terrible situation we see in many of our larger cities. The
government is reducing that budget by an enormous amount.
When the minister stands up and says the government has cut some
$20 million out of a $1.2 billion budget, that is not accurate.
It is not cutting anything out of the provincial budgets. It is
cutting out of the federal programs.
That $22 million is coming out of the federal programs where we
have the special units covering white collar crime, organized
crime, drug trafficking and so on. Yes, it is a matter of
priorities, but the government is spending money on a useless
firearms registration system that will not enhance the safety of
our streets and homes. It could be spending that money on a host
of other things, including making sure that we have enough
uniformed policemen on the streets to help reduce crime.
Let us get them into the schools talking with the children, like
the DARE drug program that many of the police forces are running
in western Canada. We should be focusing our money on those
areas, not on a useless firearms registration system that has not
proven to do anything to reduce crime or enhance safety on our
streets or in our homes.
1720
Mr. Chuck Cadman (Surrey North, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I
know that in a former life the hon. member was a policeman. The
minister has touted the whole idea of police cautioning. The
government seems to think this is something new, but I know it
has been going on for years. I know it has been going on in my
part of the country for a long time.
I wonder if the hon. member could elaborate on his experience
with police cautioning of young people to keep them out of the
courts.
Mr. Jack Ramsay: Madam Speaker, there is a real story
here. As a member of a police force, my colleagues and I used to
keep more young people out of court than we ever took in because
we had the discretion to do so.
There was a time, in the history of the federal police force
that I belonged to, where in order to get the budget it needed to
give members of the force a day off or leave, it had to justify
its demand for further revenue. Treasury Board would only accept
one type of proof for needing more money or more men and that was
through statistics. Instead of—
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I am afraid that I
must interrupt the hon. member. His time has expired.
[Translation]
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Madam Speaker, I am
pleased to take part in this debate, in support of the amendment
by my colleague, the hon. member for Laval Centre, which clearly
and unambiguously calls for withdrawal of the bill.
If we were asked to give an award for the most despicable, the
most backward, the most ill-founded bill as far as youth
rehabilitation is concerned, we would not hesitate for one
second before giving the nod to this bill on young offenders.
I would like those who are listening in, or have just joined us,
to have some idea of what is being proposed to us. There is
nothing run-of-the-mill about it.
This bill refers to 14-year olds. That is those in early
adolescence, not those who are 18, 19 or 20, i.e. young adults.
To all intents and purposes, these are not even adolescents yet.
These young people aged 14 could be given sentences comparable
to those for adults. In order to avoid any ambiguity, I will
read the actual words, for I am very much aware that words are
important in matters of law.
This is what we are being asked to vote on, and I would ask the
Liberals to pay a bit of attention. The clause in question
states:
This makes no sense whatsoever. How can the Government of
Quebec, Quebeckers and all the youth support network, which makes
Quebec society something very unique, accept such a bill?
As an aside, I have just come from a Privy Council briefing
session in which I heard reference made to the House leader. He
is, I know, a man who can be called upon for certain matters,
for certain circumstances, but there are some matters with a
human dimension which require, I believe, an appeal to his
common sense.
1725
I ask him to tell us in all honesty if he thinks that a 14-year
old who is just starting out in life, who has no experience and
is at the mercy of his environment, can be considered a hardened
criminal the way an adult can? Naturally, it is possible that
there are circumstances where young people get off to a bad
start in life.
In our work as MPs, we all see instances of this. That is why
we must turn to family support, social institutions, and
measures for socializing and moulding a young person that will
completely redirect these values, that will attempt to give
meaning to his life.
The House leader surely knows that the commission of a crime by
a 14-year old is a cry for help. It is a sign of distress, a sign
of inner turmoil. It does not make the offence committed any
less serious, but we cannot agree with the logic that
imprisonment and an intense process of criminalization will
resolve the problem. I just do not see it.
Members know that this bill is politically driven. They know
that the Minister of Justice wants to align herself as closely
as possible with the Reform Party. It is a question of votes.
When the Minister of Justice introduces a bill such as this, she
does so not as the Minister of Justice but as an Albertan. That
is what has to be understood. She introduces it as a servant of
the federal government, which wants to hold on to its seats in
western Canada.
This bill comes straight from the Reform Party mould. I wonder
whether the union of the Liberal Party and the Reform Party is
not germinating in a bill like this one. That is what we are
talking about.
The Liberal Party never said in the red book that we should
criminalize 14-year olds. Can the House leader tell us whether
in the red book—and I leave the description to him, but it went
round in certain circles—there was ever talk in 1993-94 of
criminalizing 14-year olds? There was not. Now, the Liberals
are realizing that the time for elections is approaching and
consideration must be given to an electoral base.
It is too sad to be funny. No one here finds it funny, because
the fate and the future of the young are at stake.
I would ask the House leader to exert his influence on cabinet
to ensure that corrective action is taken.
What I find the hardest to understand is the levels of crime.
When the discussion concerns the organized crime that is gnawing
away at communities, cities such as Montreal, we are entitled to
expect remedy. How is it we are discussing a law on young
offenders aged 14, but for three years we have been calling for
legislation on money laundering, which we have yet to see?
There is a problem setting priorities. This government must
understand that there are nuances to the subject of crime.
Things are happening as if the word nuance was prohibited in
ministers' speeches. And yet, I think a distinction must be made.
As the member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, I am often asked by my
constituents about this issue, by people who are concerned about
street gangs, about young people aged 13, 14 or 15 who may go
astray and commit reprehensible acts in our society. This does
not make them criminals in the same way as adults. This is what
I just cannot understand.
I truly believe that we would make a terrible mistake, as
parliamentarians, if we were to get caught up in that. If we set
the age at 14 today, who is to say that, next year,
representations will not be made to set the age at 13, or even
12? Where would it stop?
1730
As parliamentarians, we cannot subscribe to this kind of logic.
This is all the more worrisome considering that juvenile crime
is not on the rise.
There is a whole attempt on the intellectual and political front
to misrepresent facts; and this is dishonest. The government
wants us, the decision makers and parliamentarians, to think
that juvenile crime is on the rise when in fact, as the hon.
member for Berthier—Montcalm, who is the Bloc Quebecois justice
critic—
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I am sorry to interrupt the
hon. member. He will have two minutes remaining when next this
bill comes before the House.
It being 5.30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the
consideration of Private Members' Business as listed on today's
order paper.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[Translation]
CANADIAN ARMED FORCES
Mr. René Laurin (Joliette, BQ) moved that:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should have a
standing committee of the House of Commons hold public hearings
on every proposed procurement of goods or services by the
Canadian Armed Forces valued at more than $100 million, in order
to ensure that the procurement process is transparent and fair
to all concerned.
He said: Madam Speaker, I will begin with the following
question: Why did I move such a motion?
On numerous occasions, examples of insufficient spending on the
part of National Defence have been raised in the daily
newspapers and in the House, and there have also been examples
of heavier spending, in fact, very substantial spending.
Looking at these examples, one could not help but conclude that
what applies to minor spending ought to apply equally to major
spending, which is the reason for this motion.
In the past, National Defence's goods and services procurement
procedures have experienced numerous failures. I want to go
into a few examples of these.
First of all, the purchase of the utility tactical transport
helicopters known as the Griffons. Cabinet approved this on
April 7, 1992, and Treasury Board assented on September 8, 1992.
The very next day, a $754.5 million contract for the purchase of
some 100 Griffon helicopters, a flight simulator, and other
equipment, plus related documentation and services, was awarded.
The first aircraft was delivered in March 1995, and the last in
January 1998. The estimated total cost of the project was $1.2
billion, according to the auditor general's April 1998 report.
It can therefore be seen that the project went $445 million over
budget, more than 59% over budget. It has cost $1.2 billion
rather than $754.5 million.
The Griffon replaced three other models of helicopter, which
were retired: the CH-118 Iroquois, the CH-135 Twin Huey and the
CH-136 Kiowa.
The auditor general made many criticisms with respect to the
selection of this helicopter. I refer to the April 1998 auditor
general report, which states that “it appears there was a review
of how a single aircraft could replace two types but
departmental officials could not produce a copy of it”.
1735
Other documents as well were lost only God knows how.
A study done in August 1992, after the department had decided on
the Griffon, showed that its load capacity was less than that
required to transport a gun or engineer equipment. Its load
capacity for evacuating wounded and for logistical support was
also lower than required.
In its response, the department stated that the lack of capacity
could be made up by the support provided by allied aircraft. In
other words, the equipment we are unable to load in our
helicopters could be loaded with the help of our good
neighbours. That is the good neighbour strategy. So much for
Canada's sovereignty in the area of national defence.
The department concluded that to buy only one type of utility
tactical transport helicopters would cost less than to modernize
and maintain a fleet made up of several types of aircraft.
However, the auditor general demonstrated that the operating
cost of the new helicopter would be 20% to 40% higher than that
of the aircraft to be replaced.
The department bought the aircraft from the only supplier it
consulted. Only one supplier was consulted.
This is a commercial aircraft and not a military one. Other
types of helicopter were turned down. Life cycle costs for other
aircraft, which might have been lower, were not considered.
This aircraft has a limited reconnaissance capability, and the
auditor general concluded that the tactical studies did not
adequately justify replacing two divergent aircraft types with
one, and that they were concluded too late in the process to
affect decision making. In addition, the studies called into
question the suitability of the aircraft that was selected.
The acquisition of search and rescue helicopters is another
example. They are the Cormorant helicopters, the ones in the
notorious helicopter contract.
On April 23, 1998, the Minister of National Defence announced
the purchase of 15 Cormorant search and rescue helicopters from
a British-Italian consortium, E.H. Industries. The total value of
this contract was $777 million, with $580 million for the
aircraft and $197 million for project management, training,
parts, integrated logistic support, and a small contingency
fund.
Delivery to the Canadian forces should commence in the summer of
2000 and be concluded by the spring of 2002. The financial
resources for this program are provided for in the February 1997
federal budget, and they are within the existing financial
framework.
Four helicopter manufacturers were competing for this contract.
There was E.H. Industries, which manufactures model AW-520 or the
Cormorant; Boeing, an American manufacturer offering the
Chinook; Eurocopter, which manufactures the Cougar; and
Sikorsky, an American company manufacturing the Maplehawk.
Initially the cost of acquiring helicopters was some $593
million. This was reduced to $580 million, because a saving was
made by having the helicopters picked up at the manufacturer in
Italy, rather than having them delivered to Canada.
E.H. Industries expected providing the Canadian forces with
helicopters would mean jobs totalling 5,000 person years for
Canadians over the life of the eight year contract.
1740
E.H. Industries also undertook to provide major industrial and
regional benefits before the conclusion of the contract. So, it
made a commitment to spend a total of $629 million on industrial
and regional benefits.
Here again, of the $593 in industrial and regional benefits
already distributed—that is what we were told in May 1998—$318
million will go to Quebec companies. The E.H. Industries
consortium in Canada includes Bombardier, located in Montreal,
Canadian Helicopter Corporation, in St. John's, Newfoundland,
and Bristol Aerospace in Winnipeg.
There are other examples of major purchases.
I mention here the purchase of 35 helicopters intended this time
for maritime patrol. The purchase of these new helicopters has
become necessary because it is time to get rid of the thirty or
so Sea King helicopters from the 1960s. Every hour of flying
time requires an average of 21 hours of maintenance, according
to the army. In addition, the army also says that they have to
be stripped down almost entirely after every 500 hours' flying
time.
The Sea Kings are based on warships. They fight submarines,
acting as the eyes and ears of the frigates.
Minister Eggleton, like his predecessor, asked his staff for a
study on the possibility of renting helicopters instead of
buying them.
The acquisition cost of 35 helicopters is estimated at $2 to $3
billion. As for the search and rescue helicopter contract,
Eurocopter is in contention for this new contract.
In 1997, this company lost out in the bidding process for 15
maritime search and rescue helicopters. Bitter, it even threatened
to sue the government and its competitors. It would have been
useful to have a committee of the House compare the bids at the
time so that parliamentarians could see them and make absolutely
sure that we made the right choice.
Members will recall that, originally, the Department of National
Defence had called for 50 aircraft, that is 15 search and rescue
helicopters and 35 maritime patrol helicopters. However, in 1993,
the Liberals cancelled the EH-101 contract, saying that the
contract, which was awarded by the Conservatives, was too
expensive. We demanded a lot of explanation at the time but never
got the information we wanted.
The cancellation of this contract cost taxpayers a whopping
$478.3 million, or almost half a billion dollars.
Today, with regard to the search and rescue capability, the
Liberal government would have us believe that it saved money,
even taking into account the cost of cancelling the EH-101
contract. Let us wait and see how much this contract for 35 new
aircraft will cost taxpayers. Again, in this case, we think that
the opportunity to discuss this issue before a standing
committee of the House would help shed some light on the real
terms of the contract.
I will now deal with the auditor general's report on DND, dated
April 1998 . It shows that DND bought military equipment that
does not meet the needs of our troops. In other words, the
department is badly mismanaging its budget.
Out of six major capital equipment projects worth a total of
$3.3 billion, half the projects scrutinized by the auditor
general do not meet the pre-established needs of the military.
Therefore, 60% of the $3.3 billion worth of capital equipment
purchased does not even meet the real needs of the army.
Another example is the Leopard thermal weapon sight. On
September 19, 1996, Treasury Board officially approved a project
to install a thermal weapon sight on Leopard tanks.
1745
The total estimated cost of the project is $145 million. The
results of tactical analyses on how to upgrade the Leopard do
not justify the decision to improve only the night vision
system. Indeed, the army established that the upgrading of the
whole vehicle, including the gun and the armour, was the minimum
that would have been acceptable.
According to DND, a detailed analysis of existing options was
not carried out for financial reasons. DND decided that
purchasing the thermal weapon sight was the only affordable
option. However the auditor general found no study showing this
option optimized the financial resources of the army.
As part of a 1992 study by the Canadian forces, contracting out
was considered. However, they came to the conclusion that no
Canadian firm could supply this service and it was therefore
preferable to buy the equipment. However the department did not
bother calculating the cost of contracting out this service.
Then there was the project to replace the Lynx, the Coyote
project.
In 1992, the government announced it was purchasing 299 light
armoured reconnaissance vehicles and related support equipment.
A contract was signed in March 1993. The total cost approved by
Treasury Board was $883,686,000 for the budget year. The
vehicles were delivered in March 1996 and January 1998.
The Coyote provides the army with a reconnaissance capability.
The tactical concept adopted for the Coyote armoured
reconnaissance vehicle was based on various studies, including
the simulation study used for the Leopard C1. This study showed
that, without the support of a powerful force, a vehicle with
armour like the Coyote's could not withstand enemy fire during a
battle of average intensity. There again, the vehicle acquired
was not suited to the needs of the army.
The study also showed that this type of vehicle could certainly
not be used by a multipurpose force. Units using this kind of
vehicle should be considered light units with limited means and
should perform only limited tasks.
At the time of the audit by the auditor general, Canadian forces
were still conducting trials to determine how the Coyotes could
best be used.
The assistant deputy minister, materiel, and the vice chief of
defence staff ordered that Coyotes be bought on the basis of
prime necessity. However, no other vehicles had been tested.
These are enough examples to justify the motion.
However, I will deal with the conclusions reached by the auditor
general in April 98. He concluded that the Department of Defence
relied on simplistic judgments for complex purchases, that it
relied very little on equipment use plans in its studies and
that the choice of materiel it ends up buying is not based on
the results of the studies carried out.
This probably explains why, for 12 maritime coastal defence
vessels, the department bought two units of a mechanical
minesweeping device that is only effective against specific
types of mines. This probably also explains why it did not buy
all the necessary equipment that would allow its ships to
conduct effective night patrols in poor visibility. In other
words, we are well protected, but only during the daytime and
when the weather is fine.
For taxpayers in Quebec and Canada, this waste of public money
is unacceptable. It is also a major cause for concern, since DND
plans to spend close to $6.5 billion over the next five years.
Once again, the federal government is mismanaging our tax
dollars, and taxpayers in Quebec and Canada would be well
advised to see to this.
1750
We must change the defence department's way of doing things. On
February 11, 1999, the auditor general appeared before the
Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs to
provide an update on that department's procurement policy.
On that occasion, the auditor general levelled criticism at the
defence department's way of doing things. The department now has
a plan of action to reform its procurement process, but that
plan is incomplete and it does not go far enough.
For example, the purpose of the pilot project component is to
test certain procurement concepts. However, several of these
projects will not be completed before September 2000. Moreover,
the pilot projects selected are relatively unimportant.
Conversely, in Great Britain, the smart procurement initiative
was much for audacious. It led to a broad reform of the
procurement proposals process, which could lead to a closer
partnership between government and the private sector.
Contrary to what is done here, the British have literally opted
for their major procurement items, namely their aircraft
carriers, attack submarines and Apache helicopters. Canada could
follow the lead of the British in that regard. Meanwhile, the
House could make a first step by voting in favour of this
motion.
In conclusion, I wish to say that taxpayers in Quebec and Canada
can expect, in the months and years to come, to pay colossal
amounts of money for these projects.
Therefore, they have a right to expect that their money is being
spent wisely on good quality products.
For that to happen, we believe that we should avoid past
mistakes and change the way the department does things, first by
adopting a rule whereby any procurement project valued at more
than $100 million will be examined during public hearings by a
standing committee of the House.
The purpose is to make the process more transparent and fairer
for taxpayers in Quebec and Canada, so that they can get more of
their money's worth. Finally, we do not believe that our motion
is an end in itself. However, we do think that it is a step in
the right direction.
[English]
Ms. Carolyn Parrish (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Public Works and Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on
behalf of the Minister of Public Works and Government Services I
would like to respond to the question raised by the hon. member
for Joliette concerning the transparency and fairness of the
procurement process, most specifically where the Department of
National Defence is concerned.
I am therefore pleased to provide the House with a general
overview of the procurement policies, processes and practices of
the Department of Public Works and Government Services, as well
as a brief historical background of the department.
A lengthy debate on every proposed procurement of goods and
services by the Canadian Armed Forces over $100 million is not
needed. Nor is it very efficient. The procurement policies
presently in place demonstrate precisely what the hon. member is
seeking: the assurance of an open and fair process to all
concerned.
The Department of Public Works and Government Services is
mandated to ensure that the procurement process is one of
integrity and one which is conducted in an open and transparent
manner. Wherever possible competition is the preferred approach.
To ensure businesses have equal access to contract opportunities
the government has put in place an electronic tendering system
called MERX. Accessible through the Internet all potential
suppliers are informed about procurement opportunities at the
same time. MERX reduces access costs, increases competition and
provides businesses with a single point of access to information
on contracting opportunities.
This system is also currently being used by seven provinces and
a growing number of public institutions such as municipalities,
academic institutions, school boards and hospitals. It is an
excellent example of the kind of co-operation we can work on with
all levels of government.
In addition, in 1997 the Government of Canada launched Contracts
Canada. Through this initiative hundreds of seminars were
conducted annually and are conducted annually today with
businesses across the country on how to do business with the
crown. Furthermore, virtually all contracts processed by the
department are published on the Internet, again ensuring openness
and equal access at the same time.
1755
I would also like to take this opportunity to promote the
Department of Public Works and Government Services benefits
driven procurement initiative. In the past the traditional
approach to procurement in a complex project was for an
organization to spend months, possibly years, developing a
detailed requirement to present to industry. Firms were invited
to present bids based on a sometimes massive document and the
lowest bid usually won.
This approach had many pitfalls. That is why a new approach has
been introduced to deal with the complexities and risks of major
procurement projects. Basically the benefits driven procurement
asks the industry to deliver certain agreed upon results rather
than follow a blueprint assigned by the government. The industry
is also invited to submit ideas on what sort of project should be
undertaken before a formal request is issued.
What distinguishes this approach is thorough and rigorous front
end planning to remove or mitigate potential problems in a
procurement process. Both the front end planning and the
management of the entire acquisition life cycle are based on four
basic elements: a solid business case, risk analysis, clear
delineation of accountabilities, and a compensation structure
closely tied to the contractor's performance.
The benefits driven procurement will help support the Canadian
industry, boost confidence in the public sector and confirm the
public works department as a world leader in government
procurement.
Federal purchasing services are provided to more than 100
federal departments and agencies by the Department of Public
Works and Government Services, the Department of National Defence
being its biggest client. Its mandate is to ensure the integrity
of the procurement process. It is committed to open, fair,
transparent and competitive procurement policies and processes.
This is fundamental to our ability to deliver excellent service
to our clients through the Government of Canada.
In addition, the department is determined to harness innovative
ideas and make the federal procurement process even more
efficient as we move into the next millennium.
The Department of Public Works and Government Services is the
nation's largest purchasing agent, providing an astounding range
of services to support the daily operations of government to meet
the needs of all Canadians.
Every year this department buys more than $8 billion in goods
and services covering 17,000 categories of service and creates
more than 60,000 contract opportunities for businesses in Canada.
These opportunities stimulate Canada's economy and create or
maintain jobs in every sector, particularly for small and medium
size businesses which are the engines of economic growth for
Canada.
As I previously mentioned, the Department of National Defence is
the Department of Public Works and Government Services biggest
client, accounting for approximately half the department's
business every year. It includes much more than weapons, ships,
aircraft and military vehicles.
The public works and government services department has a long
history with the Department of National Defence going back to
September 1939. On the eve of the second world war Prime
Minister Mackenzie King asked for the preparation of an act to
create a department of supply. On the prime minister's behalf C.
D. Howe, the then minister of transport, defended the move in the
House of Commons by declaring that “the best guarantee that
profits on war material will be kept to a minimum is to place men
of skill, experience and absolute integrity” in charge of
purchasing and production. This led to the war supply board
which became the department of munitions and supply and then the
department of defence production.
For almost 60 years the Department of National Defence has
identified its needs and the Department of Public Works and
Government Services has been responsible and accountable for
developing and implementing procurement strategies to fulfil
those needs. Canada is one of the few countries in the world
where this separation exists. It is crucial to ensure the
process remains fair. In the end we want Canadians to receive
the best value possible for the money spent on their behalf.
To conclude, let me reiterate the government's commitment to a
fair, open, transparent and competitive procurement process, a
process which ensures equal access for all businesses and is
managed in a way that will pass the test of public scrutiny.
1800
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it
is a pleasure to rise today to discuss the motion of the hon.
member from the Bloc.
Motion M-73 calls on the House to hold public hearings on every
proposed procurement of goods and services by the Canadian forces
valued at more than $100 million. With respect, I would like to
suggest that this would be a bad idea.
Many observers of the defence department procurement process
have pointed out that the level of bureaucratic and political
interference at that process is already bad enough. In fact the
auditor general's report makes mention of that. I will quote
from that document:
The federal government's approach to major weapons systems
acquisition is too complicated, marked by the involvement of
several departments, an adversarial approach to industry and
complicated paperwork and specifications. Overall (industry
experts) believe the current federal approach adds overhead costs
and slows project completion, adding again to the total cost.
In other words, the hon. member from the Bloc is suggesting that
they would add another layer of political involvement and the
bureaucracy that would come with it and the process would be even
more extended. In my view, the defence procurement process could
use a lot less political involvement.
The last speaker from the Bloc sat in the defence committee
hearing yesterday when Dr. Bland made a presentation on
procurement. The question came up regarding the cancellation of
the EH-101s and the present purchase of the shipboard helicopters
and the process that it now entails. The question basically was
what is wrong? What happened? Where is the problem?
Dr. Bland put it in this way. He said that the problems lie
with the military, bureaucratic and political interface. That is
where it lies. Tell me what that means, military, bureaucratic
and political interface on this procurement process.
The EH-101 helicopter is a prime example of political
interference, I might add. In other words, it is political
interference. In the hard face of all these contracts that have
been either cancelled or altered, it is direct political
interference.
I do not think adding another layer of political involvement
would work. I can see all kinds of arguments arising out of
having public hearings on this matter. All of a sudden there
would be a myriad of politicians wanting to jump into the fray
making sure that a chunk of that contract was going to end up in
their ridings.
What would happen to the process? It would be extended. It
would be more involved, and I would have to suggest it would be
much more costly to do it.
What the defence department needs is to be able to purchase the
equipment it needs to do its job. It needs politicians to leave
it alone and not tell it what to buy. There is always the issue
that there is a political element to every purchase, but that is
where experts come in to advise the politicians. The politicians
should not be telling the specific department what to buy.
I know that other contracts have been let. There has always
been the question of sole sourcing. That is one point that has
always come up, where there is no bid process. It would be nice
to have the assurance that there would be a greater number of
open bid contracts and not the sole sourcing we have seen in many
cases here in Canada.
There is always the question of political interference. It may
not be directly by anybody in the cabinet, but it could be
someone else. They could have a certain industry in their riding
and may want to have a chunk of all that.
I can see that coming into the mix here if we have these public
hearings and politicians demand that they be involved, that
industries in their ridings be involved. It may often be the case
that it may not be the best industry to be involved in that bid
process.
1805
When the frigates were built, the contract was let to one
shipbuilder. The one shipbuilder decided on who the
subcontractors were going to be. He was guaranteed that in the
contract, which was a good provision within the contract.
It prevented what some members tried to do. They tried to have
that contract changed by saying they had a subcontractor in their
riding that would be suitable for that contract. The contractor
was able to say “No, you will not be permitted to become part of
this bidding process. I have the final say”. It is my
understanding it saved millions and millions of dollars because
the subcontractors were selected by the contractor and everything
went ahead smoothly without the interference of the politicians.
For those reasons alone, I must declare my opposition to the
hon. member's motion.
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I rise
in support of this motion. We see it as an initiative to begin
the huge job of cleaning up the mess in this government's defence
ministry.
The auditor general pointed out in his report last year that
national defence plans to spend $6.5 billion over the next five
years to purchase equipment for the Canadian forces. The auditor
general was scathing in his report. All Canadians deserve an
open and fair defence procurement procedure. They are not
receiving the quality they deserve from their taxes.
Canada's auditor general had these words to say about this
Liberal government's defence procurement practices:
We are concerned at the extent to which the Department relies on
professional judgment in making complex purchase decisions.
Management did not conduct adequate analyses to justify its
spending decisions for most of the projects we examined. Tactical
studies often did not reflect the way officials said they
actually planned to employ equipment, were done too late to
influence decisions, produced results that contradicted the
purchase decision, were undertaken by contractors who had an
interest in the Department's decision, or were not done at all.
In three cases, the Department considered only a single option.
In other cases, the options analyses were inadequate.
This is simply not good enough. Furthermore this is not news to
this government. The auditor general has been sounding the alarm
bells on the government's procurement policies for years. The
auditor general reminded the government of the following:
In 1992, we reported that DND had recognized the need to simplify
and streamline its major capital acquisition process, which had
become unnecessarily complex, process-driven, costly and no
longer appropriate for the management of the defence capital
program. Our 1994 chapters on Information Technology and
Infrastructure Management pointed to continuing problems with the
Department's project and program management systems, despite
attempts to improve them. Our 1994 follow-up chapter also noted
that while the Department has generally concurred with our
recommendations, it has been slow to implement improvements. We
also expressed our concern that the actions it has taken may be
inadequate to address the problems with the project and program
management systems.
Many of the problems associated with the purchase of major
capital equipment that we found in our 1984, 1987 and 1992 audits
continue to affect today's defence capital acquisition projects.
Just how bad is this situation? Following is a partial list of
the disastrous mishandling of the Canadian taxpayers' money by
this Liberal government's defence spenders courtesy of the
auditor general: excessively complex and labour intensive
acquisition process; inadequately trained project managers;
insufficient resources and underestimation of supportability
costs; an ineffective and untimely staffing of project management
offices; gaps and overlaps in project management
responsibilities; poor procurement practices; poor application of
program and project risk evaluation and risk management
principles; lack of an integrated information system; and
inadequate project management information.
1810
Housing and pay conditions for our forces personnel still demand
attention. Recent announcements to improve pay, particularly for
the lowest paid defence personnel, helps but it is not enough.
If the government were not guilty of wasting the taxpayers'
money, I wonder how much we would be able to improve housing for
our forces personnel. I wonder if we would be facing the safety
crisis posed by our obsolete Labrador and Sea King helicopters.
All Canadians deserve to have these very serious issues resolved.
The motion before us proposes to hold public hearings on every
expenditure over $100 million. The sentiment lying behind the
motion is good. It raises a very important question. At the
crux of this issue is the extent to which the Liberal government
is wasting untold millions of dollars. I can say that the people
of my riding of Halifax West and throughout the province of Nova
Scotia do not want the government to continue to waste their
money.
I want to know, and I am quite sure that Canadians would want to
know, what military hardware is currently mothballed in
warehouses and elsewhere throughout the land. There must be big
ticket items that are neither currently being used nor intended
for use. Let us see an inventory of unused hardware that might
be sold to other allied countries.
I am concerned that the government may be reluctant to provide
this information so as not to be embarrassed by the amount or
value of equipment purchased that was never used or used only for
a short period of time before becoming obsolete or incompatible
with other equipment.
In the standing committee we are currently reviewing the
procurement process. It is true that one of the things that
comes to mind is the complexity of this process and the length of
time involved from deciding that a piece of equipment is required
to the time that equipment is acquired. Perhaps part of the
problem could be resolved if there was more public transparency.
The public should be aware of what is happening, the amounts of
money that are being spent and how they are being spent. The
previous speaker argued that public involvement might further
complicate the problem. However, I would think that perhaps the
threat and the involvement of public scrutiny would be a very
positive thing. As things become more transparent it places more
responsibility upon us to make sure that things are done
properly, adequately and more effectively.
In this instance we could argue very strongly that with such
huge amounts of money being expended, public scrutiny and
transparency is a very important factor and would assist in the
process. Anything that can assist in this procurement process to
bring fairness and justice to the system and to bring good value
for the money being spent is something that we would support.
On behalf of the New Democratic Party I am pleased to indicate
our support for this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, PC): Mr. Speaker, I am happy
today to support this motion by the member for Joliette.
The motion reads:
That, in the opinion of the House, the government should have a
Standing Committee of the House of Commons hold public hearings
on every proposed procurement of goods or services by the
Canadian Armed Forces valued at more than $100 million, in order
to ensure that the procurement process is transparent and fair
to all concerns.
[English]
In my opinion, there are good reasons to support this motion. I
think that the Liberal government has given Canadians great cause
to question its procurement programs. I tend to partially agree
and partially disagree with the member for Calgary Northeast.
The auditor general has said that there is too much bureaucracy
within our procurement process. Perhaps we should be taking out
some of those levels of bureaucracy and putting in public
scrutiny at that point. Public scrutiny should probably be at
the level of the statement of requirement so that we could get
this moving a little faster.
1815
If we look at the maritime helicopter project, the SOR on that
has already been nine years and we still have not seen anything.
If we had the defence committee involved in it we would have seen
something by now. From that point on it can go through the
regular process but again taking out some of the levels and maybe
speeding things up a little. There is no question that things
have been dragging.
After all, this is the Liberal government that came to power by
cancelling the EH-101 program at a cost of about $1 billion. It
says it was only $500 million. If we look at what it will cost
by the time we get the new Sea Kings and the search and rescue on
line, it will probably be well over a $1 billion.
This program was critical to the Canadian search and rescue
forces and maritime helicopter capability. It was cancelled for
strictly crass political purposes. Our search and rescue
capability today is hanging by a thread. A couple of weeks ago
an American helicopter piloted by a Canadian completed a rescue
mission off the coast of Nova Scotia.
There is a report sitting in the minister's office that
reportedly says the Labrador helicopters are prone to
catastrophic failures and they present a high risk to crews. The
Liberals have since turned around and bought the EH-101
helicopter for search and rescue, but after spending almost $1
billion to cancel a program.
The interesting point is that we will not see the first new
helicopter until the year 2001. As for the Sea King it is still
waiting for a replacement. We do not even have the SOR on it
yet. Once we get that it will still take five to eight years
down the road.
I have been to Greenwood to see the work they are doing to
rebuild these helicopters. If we add in the rebuilding they are
doing, we are talking about 70 hours for every one hour of
flight. No wonder the auditor general is nervous about the whole
situation and is saying that the government is not handling
things properly.
It is costing us millions of dollars to keep these aging
helicopters air worthy, and that with a minimal return. The Sea
King is available less than 40% of the time and its mission
system fails half the time when it is available. There is
question about the legitimacy of the Canada search helicopter
program from industry and the Sea King replacement contract is
coming up.
[Translation]
The member for Joliette has already spoken to us about the
infamous Griffon helicopters. I will therefore leave them aside
for now.
[English]
Then there was a Bombardier contract for NATO flight training in
western Canada, an untendered contract awarded by the Liberal
government to the tune of $2.85 billion. Many questions have
been asked about this Liberal decision. Perhaps, if the process
were more transparent, parliamentarians would have been less
suspicious of Liberal motives in the decision.
These are questions that parliamentarians should be able to ask
and should be able to get substantive answers to, but not at the
moment. In my opinion the Liberal government, through its
sleight of hand approach to procurement, has forced
parliamentarians to put forward these types of motions.
One of the very functions of the committee process is to enable
parliamentarians to question government on the estimates. The
government has not been forthcoming in this regard and has
demonstrated its disrespect for the parliamentary process. It is
not just a problem of the Department of National Defence but of
all departments of the government. Thus parliamentarians are
forced to take action such as this motion to create another
committee.
SCONDVA is studying the issue of procurement. This committee
should have the same oversight role with regard to defence
procurement. SCONDVA demonstrated its competence and its
credibility with the recent quality of life study. It is a good,
strong committee with members deeply interested in the defence of
the country and has garnered considerable expertise on defence
issues in the last several years. Thus it is only right that the
expertise of SCONDVA is given an oversight role on defence
procurement.
If we remember, the Somalia inquiry called for a vigilant
parliament. Vigilance must be demonstrated in the field of
defence procurement as well. Another committee as recommended in
the motion would be necessary to allow SCONDVA to deal with the
massive issues before it.
1820
My only concern is that while remaining vigilant we do not
unnecessarily tie the hands of government in times of crisis. For
instance, the United States is now running low on cruise missiles
at a time when it is at war.
It might not be in the nation's national security interest to
put procurement issues through a committee during a serious
crisis. I think many would agree that this is a delicate time
and a delicate issue. Thus I support the motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Antoine Dubé (Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
I am pleased to speak to the motion by the member for Joliette.
I seconded this motion because I think it makes a lot of sense.
One could even ask why what it proposes is not already in
practice.
The motion proposes that a standing committee hold public
hearings on every proposed procurement valued at more than $100
million. This would probably come under the Standing Committee
on National Defence and Veterans Affairs. There would therefore
be witnesses, people who would ask questions in order to examine
all aspects of such procurement. One hundred million dollars is
a lot of money. The government would do well to be transparent.
Speaking of national defence, we can see in the Kosovo crisis
that one of the problems of this government is a lack of
transparency in its actions, the paucity of information it
provides. Ultimately, we should perhaps not expect to be given
strategic information in wartime.
I had to replace the member for Joliette on the committee. He
almost never misses committee meetings. He is extremely
available and devoted to his work. Approximately one month ago,
however, he asked me to replace him on the defence committee.
At the time, the committee was examining government contracts
and defence procurement.
National Defence representatives, officials and military
personnel appeared as witnesses.
I was surprised at the difficulty, not to say the impossibility,
of obtaining information, about the breakdown by province of
military equipment procurement, for instance.
We were given a few examples. If memory serves, there were
about 50 budgets and, at the most, three breakdowns. It is
interesting for members, who represent their riding, of course,
but also their region and their province, to know how the money
is distributed. I was able to question witnesses on regional
impacts.
Why did the member for Joliette ask me to replace him? Quite
simply because I am the Bloc Quebecois critic for regional
development. I therefore wanted to see the defence budgets, the
impact they could have on a region.
This information seems to be a state secret. Yet I was not
questioning them with a view to finding out what the equipment
looked like or what it was made of, or to obtain military
secrets. If that had been the case, I could understand. There
is no question of telling all, of making everything public, when
dealing with defence matters. It is important, however, to know
how the money is distributed, what companies and how many jobs
are involved. Questions have to be asked about how defence
budgets are allocated and decided upon.
1825
I also asked how these things were assessed and by whom.
Departmental officials said that they had committees, that
studies were commissioned and that the findings were submitted
to cabinet. An interesting discovery we make while reading the
auditor general's report is that taxpayers from Canada and
Quebec can expect to spend large sums of money on projects over
the next few months. That means there is a lot of money to be
spent each year and, over the next few years, more equipment
will have to be replaced.
The report also says that cabinet did not always rely on the
findings from studies commissioned by the Department of National
Defence.
The findings from studies, whether in-house or conducted by firms
outside DND, should be used. The auditor general noted, however,
that decisions made by cabinet were seldom based on these
studies, which is absolutely deplorable.
Regarding the choice of criteria, officials told me that studies
were taken into account, but that decisions were primarily based
on the political judgement of cabinet members.
When small amounts are involved, I can understand that it may
not always be necessary to call for public tenders. But for
contracts of $100 million or more, as the member for Joliette
said, it seems to me that tendering should be considered.
In fact, I think the member for Joliette is a little bit too
reasonable.
If I have one criticism to voice regarding his motion, it is
that the amount could have been smaller. However he made the
following comment in his speech “This is for lack of anything
better, since currently there is no obligation to go to tender
for procurement projects valued at even more than that”. He
suggests that at least we start at this level.
Personally, I would go further, but he is wise. He is trying to
get the support of all parties and possibly government members.
Even though it is a private member's motion, government members
could support it. It seems to me it would be in the public
interest.
We should have a parliamentary committee to review budgets,
legislation and regulations on this. This is what our
constituents want us to do.
We are talking about $100 million in military equipment
procurement and the government it telling us “No, these
decisions are up to cabinet”. The auditor general, public
servants and independent observers are saying that the trouble
these days in Canada is that everything is decided by the
cabinet.
However, I will not go as far as my colleague from Lac-Saint-Jean
and leave with my seat on this account.
Last night, the governing party went against the wishes of all
the opposition parties and refused to hold a vote in the House
on the deployment of ground troops in Kosovo. Decisions like
these reflect the centralizing approach of the government.
The year 2000 is near.
In my riding, people do not think much of politicians as a whole
because they feel that in this parliament, as in others,
democracy means “You can say all you want, decisions are made
elsewhere”.
In this instance, decisions are made strictly at cabinet level.
And who controls the cabinet? The Prime Minister. This is how
things are done in the Prime Minister's office: the minister
responsible makes a recommendation and the other ministers
support it because of what is called collective cabinet
responsibility. In fact, only a handful of people make the big
decisions.
I want to remind the House that we are talking about $100
million, which seems quite reasonable to me. This is why I
wholeheartedly support the motion put forward by the hon. member
for Joliette. I want to commend him for moving the motion and
aptly arguing in its favour. I urge my Liberal colleagues to
support it.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The time provided for the
consideration of Private Members' Business has now expired and
the order is dropped to the bottom of the order of precedence on
the order paper.
It being 6.30 p.m., the House stands adjourned until 10 a.m.
tomorrow, pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 6.30 p.m.)