36th Parliament, 1st Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 216
CONTENTS
Tuesday, April 27, 1999
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
1000
| GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| PETITIONS
|
| Child Pornography
|
| Mr. Eric Lowther |
1005
| Human Rights
|
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
| Nuclear Testing
|
| Mr. Svend J. Robinson |
| Housing in Nunavik
|
| Mr. Guy St-Julien |
| Rights of Grandparents
|
| Mr. Jack Ramsay |
| Taxation
|
| Mr. Jack Ramsay |
| QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| Hon. Ralph E. Goodale |
| Hon. Ralph E. Goodale |
| Ms. Eleni Bakopanos |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
1010
| SUPPLY
|
| Allotted Day—Kosovo
|
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Motion
|
1015
1020
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
1025
| Amendment
|
| Mr. Jean-Paul Marchand |
1030
| Mr. Ted McWhinney |
| Mr. Ted White |
| Mr. Ted McWhinney |
1035
1040
| Mr. Ted White |
1045
| Mr. Bob Mills |
1050
1055
| Mr. Svend J. Robinson |
1100
| Mr. Jean-Paul Marchand |
| Mr. Daniel Turp |
1105
1110
| Mr. Ted McWhinney |
1115
| Mr. André Bachand |
1120
1125
| Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
1130
| Mr. Yvon Godin |
1135
1140
| Mr. Murray Calder |
| Mr. Jean-Paul Marchand |
1145
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
1150
1155
| Mr. Ted McWhinney |
| Mr. Daniel Turp |
1200
| Mr. Lynn Myers |
1205
| Ms. Elinor Caplan |
1210
| Mr. John Bryden |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
1215
1220
1225
| Mr. Preston Manning |
1230
1235
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
1240
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
1245
| Mr. André Bachand |
1250
| Mr. Jim Hart |
1255
1300
| Mr. Peter Goldring |
1305
1310
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
1315
1320
| Mr. René Laurin |
1325
| Mr. John Williams |
| Mr. David Price |
1330
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
| Mr. Leon E. Benoit |
1335
| Mr. Clifford Lincoln |
1340
| Mr. Gordon Earle |
1345
| Mr. René Laurin |
1350
1355
| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
| AIR CADETS
|
| Mr. Bryon Wilfert |
| FREEDOM OF THE PRESS
|
| Mr. Howard Hilstrom |
| MINING INDUSTRY
|
| Hon. Charles Caccia |
| INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF FIRE FIGHTERS
|
| Mrs. Judi Longfield |
1400
| LEUKEMIA
|
| Mr. Jim Abbott |
| YOUTH VIOLENCE
|
| Mr. Gurbax Singh Malhi |
| GOVERNMENT OF QUEBEC
|
| Mr. Nick Discepola |
| VETERANS
|
| Mr. Bob Wood |
| CHILD PORNOGRAPHY
|
| Mr. Eric Lowther |
1405
| YOUNG OFFENDERS
|
| Mr. Richard Marceau |
| QUEBEC MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Denis Paradis |
| CANCER
|
| Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
| HOUSING
|
| Ms. Carolyn Parrish |
| IBM CANADA
|
| Mr. Jim Jones |
1410
| RADIO MUSIC AWARDS
|
| Mr. Mauril Bélanger |
| AMATEUR SPORT
|
| Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
| FRASER RIVER
|
| Mr. Grant McNally |
| PENSIONS
|
| Mrs. Michelle Dockrill |
| CANCHILD CENTRE
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
1415
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
| KOSOVO
|
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
1420
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
| Mr. Daniel Turp |
| Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
| Mr. Daniel Turp |
1425
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
1430
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mr. Jim Hart |
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
| Mr. Jim Hart |
| Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton |
| MILLENNIUM SCHOLARSHIPS
|
| Mr. Bernard Bigras |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| Mr. Bernard Bigras |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
1435
| KOSOVO
|
| Mr. Bob Mills |
| Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
| Mr. Bob Mills |
| Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
| TAINTED BLOOD
|
| Mrs. Pauline Picard |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| Mrs. Pauline Picard |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| JUSTICE
|
| Mr. Eric Lowther |
1440
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
| Mr. Eric Lowther |
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
| AMATEUR SPORT
|
| Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire |
| Mr. Mauril Bélanger |
| NATO
|
| Hon. Sheila Finestone |
| Hon. Lloyd Axworthy |
| YOUNG OFFENDERS ACT
|
| Mr. Chuck Cadman |
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
| Mr. Chuck Cadman |
1445
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
| PENSIONS
|
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Hon. Marcel Massé |
| Mr. Pat Martin |
| Hon. Marcel Massé |
| AIR SAFETY
|
| Mr. Bill Casey |
| Hon. David M. Collenette |
| Mr. Bill Casey |
| Hon. David M. Collenette |
| KOSOVO
|
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
1450
| Hon. Lucienne Robillard |
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Chuck Strahl |
| Mr. Wayne Easter |
| YOUNG OFFENDERS
|
| Mr. Michel Bellehumeur |
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
| PENSIONS
|
| Ms. Bev Desjarlais |
| Hon. Marcel Massé |
| DEVCO
|
| Mr. Gerald Keddy |
| Hon. Ralph E. Goodale |
1455
| KOSOVO
|
| Mr. John Cannis |
| Hon. Diane Marleau |
| HOCKEY
|
| Mr. John Nunziata |
| Hon. John Manley |
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Mike Scott |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| HUMAN CLONING
|
| Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
1500
| CANADA PENSION PLAN
|
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| DEVCO
|
| Mr. Gerald Keddy |
| Hon. Ralph E. Goodale |
| POINTS OF ORDER
|
| Question Period
|
| Mr. Jim Hart |
| Hon. Don Boudria |
1505
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| SUPPLY
|
| Allotted Day—Kosovo
|
| Motion
|
| Mr. Paul Crête |
1510
| Mrs. Monique Guay |
1515
1520
| Mr. John McKay |
1525
1530
| Mr. Jay Hill |
1535
| Mr. Jim Karygiannis |
| Mr. Alex Shepherd |
1540
1545
| Mr. Jim Karygiannis |
1550
| Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
1555
1600
| Mr. Peter Mancini |
1605
1610
| Mr. Jim Karygiannis |
| Mr. John Bryden |
1615
1620
1625
| Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien |
| Mr. Daniel Turp |
1630
| Mr. Steve Mahoney |
1635
1640
| Mr. Daniel Turp |
| Mr. Jim Karygiannis |
1645
| Mr. Norman Doyle |
1650
1655
| Mr. Jim Karygiannis |
1700
| Mr. Gerald Keddy |
1705
| Mr. Ted White |
1710
1715
| Mr. Ken Epp |
1720
1725
| Mr. John Bryden |
1730
| PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
| HEPATITIS C
|
| Motion
|
| Mr. Greg Thompson |
1735
1740
1745
| Ms. Elinor Caplan |
1750
1755
| Mr. Gurmant Grewal |
1800
1805
| Mrs. Pauline Picard |
1810
1815
| Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
1820
1825
| Mr. Greg Thompson |
1830
| ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
|
| Housing
|
| Ms. Libby Davies |
| Ms. Carolyn Parrish |
1835
| International Trade
|
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
| Ms. Eleni Bakopanos |
1840
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 216
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Tuesday, April 27, 1999
The House met at 10 a.m.
Prayers
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
1000
[Translation]
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant
to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in both
official languages, the government's response to 15 petitions.
* * *
[English]
PETITIONS
CHILD PORNOGRAPHY
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
have the honour to present to the House today a petition from
Canadians right across the country. This is the single largest
petition received by this House during the 36th parliament. The
member for Scarborough Southwest and I received these petitions
this morning.
These petitions relate directly to the call by Canadians right
across this country to take all measures necessary to ensure that
the possession of child pornography remains a serious criminal
offence and that federal police forces be directed to give
priority to enforcing this law for the protection of children.
1005
In presenting this petition I will close by reading the prayer
that these petitioners are putting forward today. Your
petitioners pray that parliament take all measures necessary to
ensure that possession of child pornography remains a serious
criminal offence and that the federal police forces be directed
to give priority to enforcing this law for the protection of
children.
HUMAN RIGHTS
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
am pleased to present a petition signed by a number of Canadians,
including from my own riding of Mississauga South on the subject
matter of human rights.
The petitioners would like to draw to the attention of the House
that human rights abuses continue to be rampant around the world,
including in countries such as Indonesia and in Kosovo. The
petitioners also acknowledge that Canada continues to be
recognized internationally as a champion of internationally
recognized human rights.
The petitioners therefore call upon parliament to continue to
speak out against human rights abuses and also to seek to bring
to justice those responsible for such abuses.
NUCLEAR TESTING
Mr. Svend J. Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I have the honour to present a petition which is signed
by residents of British Columbia, including from my own
constituency of Burnaby—Douglas, as well as residents of
Halifax, Nova Scotia on the other coast.
This is a petition opposing the presence of nuclear powered and
nuclear armed vessels in the Strait of Georgia. The petitioners
note that the agreement allowing the U.S. use of the Canadian
Forces Maritime Experimental and Test Ranges, CF METR, in Nanoose
Bay expired in June 1996, that the cold war is over and that this
is a cold war facility, that this nuclear emergency response plan
acknowledges the potential for a nuclear emergency at CF METR and
that CF METR occupies land and water that are part of the
sovereign claims of the Nanoose first nation.
They call therefore for cancellation of the CF METR agreement
with the U.S. and an immediate ban on all nuclear powered and or
nuclear weapons capable vessels from B.C. waters and harbours.
They also ask that resolving the land claims of the Nanoose first
nation be a priority issue and that CF METR be converted to
peaceful uses.
[Translation]
HOUSING IN NUNAVIK
Mr. Guy St-Julien (Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 36, I would like to table a petition
from the Inuit community of Quaqtaq, in Nunavik.
The petitioners state that, at the present time, there are 16 to
20 people in three bedroom dwellings. The Inuit find the
housing conditions in Nunavik extremely distressing. They
consider the situation totally intolerable. It contributes to
the high incidence of tuberculosis, infectious diseases and
social problems.
The federal government must assume its obligations under the
James Bay and Northern Quebec agreement as far as housing in
Nunavik is concerned.
[English]
RIGHTS OF GRANDPARENTS
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant
to Standing Order No. 36, I am pleased to present two petitions
to the House today.
First, over 200 petitioners appeal to the House to amend the
Divorce Act and protect the access and custody rights of
grandparents who are in danger of being denied their
grandchildren because of divorce.
TAXATION
Mr. Jack Ramsay (Crowfoot, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, in
addition, I present today the concerns of a number of my Crowfoot
constituents who petition parliament to reduce all taxation by at
least 20% and abolish the GST.
* * *
[Translation]
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
following questions will be answered today: Questions Nos. 219,
220 and 223.
.[Text]
Question No. 219—Mr. Rick Borotsik:
What is the
total estimated financial cost of the Canadian Wheat Board's 49
public forum meetings that are currently being held on Justice
Willard Estey's grain handling and transportation review
recommandations?
Hon. Ralph E. Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and Minister
responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): A total of 61
meetings were held across the prairies to provide an opportunity
for the Canadian Wheat Board to consult with farmers on grain
transportation issues. The total costs of holding these meetings
have not been finalized. Expenses for hall rentals and
advertising will amount to about $40,000, and there will be
additional costs related to travel.
Question No. 220—Mr. Rick Borotsik:
What is the monetary compensation each individual Canadian Wheat
Board permit book holder will receive from the level of service
complaint settlement with both CN and CP railway after accounting
for legal costs incurred by the Canadian Wheat Board?
Hon. Ralph E. Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and Minister
responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): The proceeds
from the Canadian National, CN, settlement were distributed
through the Canadian Wheat Board, CWB, accounts. The total costs
of bringing the complaint was $2.7 million. A portion of this was
legal fees. The settlement also included rate related benefits
accruing to farmers in 1997-1998 and for the life of the
agreement. Due to the confidential nature of the agreement, the
value of the CN settlement was not publicly disclosed. The
amount per permit book will vary depending on participation in the
pool accounts.
The Canadian Pacific, CP, settlement is valued at $15 million.
The proceeds will be paid to the CWB in 1999 and 2000 and then
distributed to farmers through the pool accounts. The legal fees
for the court case with CP were taken into account in arriving at
the settlement amount. The amount per permit book will vary
depending on participation in the pool accounts.
Question No. 223—Mr. Paul Forseth:
For each of the years 1994 through 1998, could the Department of
Justice provide exact numbers of how many divorces in Canada were
handled without the intervention of the courts?
Ms. Eleni Bakopanos (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): The Department
of Justice's central registry of divorce proceedings has existed
since the implementation of the Divorce Act in 1968. This
registry was set up as a mechanism to detect and to inform courts
and the parties of two divorce applications in different
provinces with respect to the same couple.
This registry will ensure a court's jurisdiction in deciding on
divorce cases as contained in subsections 3(2) and 3(3) of the
Divorce Act.
The records of the registry indicate that the following number
of divorces were granted without hearing by the court, by the
calendar year are: 1994, 66,197; 1995, 66,200; 1996, 58,405;
1997, 56,258; and 1998, 57,335.
[Translation]
Mr. Peter Adams: Mr. Speaker, I ask that the remaining questions
be allowed to stand.
The Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
1010
[English]
SUPPLY
ALLOTTED DAY—KOSOVO
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP) moved:
That this House calls on the government to
intensify and accelerate efforts to find a diplomatic solution to
the crisis in Kosovo through the involvement of Russia and the
United Nations, and to urge NATO not to take actions that expand
the conflict and stand in the way of a diplomatic solution.
She said: Madam Speaker, in launching this debate this morning,
I would like to explain why the New Democratic Party made the
decision to use its opposition day, one of approximately three
opposition days in the course of a year, to introduce this motion
on Kosovo.
In the few minutes that are available to me, because I will be
dividing my time with my colleague from Halifax West, the NDP
defence critic, I want to say what this resolution means in
relation to the critical point, the critical juncture we have
reached in the desperate search for a speedy, peaceful diplomatic
solution to the horrifying humanitarian crisis in Kosovo.
Since the Kosovo crisis began in March 1998, just one year ago,
700,000 to 800,000 Kosovars have been forced out of their
homeland. Another 400,000, perhaps more than that, have been
displaced within Kosovo. Massive damage has been done to the
civilian infrastructure of Yugoslavia by the some 3,000 sorties
flown by the NATO strike aircraft.
Canadians want to know, and they want to know now, that their
government is doing everything humanly possible to bring the
hostilities to an end, to bring an end to the atrocities being
committed by the Yugoslavian government under Milosevic and to
the military aggression. They want to be assured that the
Kosovar Albanians are going to be able to return safely to live
in their homeland in peace and comfort and security.
That is the goal. That is the objective that supposedly drew
Canada into this conflict. It must remain our single-minded
objective in the days ahead.
Frankly, we in the New Democratic Party along with a great many
other Canadians are gravely disappointed with both the scope and
the pace of the diplomatic efforts pursued by the Canadian
government to date. Instead of bold and creative diplomacy, we
have had boosterism, we have had followership for U.S. policies
and for NATO tactics.
Lester Pearson would have used Canada's historic tradition and
role as peace broker to seek a consensus for peaceful solutions.
He would have done so even at the risk of offending great powers.
Instead our Prime Minister has toed the NATO line and danced on
cue. The past few weeks have been littered with missed
opportunities where Canada could have exercised independently its
influence to promote promising diplomatic initiatives, but it has
not done so.
Today is not the day to dwell on failures, to dwell on
omissions, to dwell on missed opportunities. Rather, it is the
time, and this is the purpose today of this motion and this
debate, to focus single-mindedly on what it is that Canada can
now do, what it is that Canada must now do to provide leadership,
to play a key role in bringing us to that diplomatic peaceful
resolution of the Kosovo crisis.
[Translation]
Now, diplomacy needs to be given a helping hand. That is the
objective of this motion, the objective of this debate. We must
concentrate our efforts on what Canada can do, on the leadership
Canada must show in working toward a diplomatic solution.
[English]
There is no question that there is a diplomatic window, a window
that is open just so wide. It is not a big opportunity, it is
not a guaranteed path, but it is an opening.
It is opening because there have been countries that have taken
initiatives. Italy, Germany, Russia and the United Nations have
stepped forward. Heaven knows, we desperately need the
involvement of the United Nations.
1015
It is ironic that for months Canada has celebrated the fact that
it has gained a temporary seat on the security council of the
United Nations. Yet at the very first opportunity that it might
have used that seat to further the cause of peace, Canada opted
out. It said that one could not do anything with the security
council. However, the potential for using that avenue still
exists and we must use it. It is absolutely imperative that we
get this issue back into the United Nations arena where it
belongs.
In the last few days and over the last week there have been some
promising developments. Early in the conflict the New Democratic
Party pushed hard for Canada to take a leadership role in
persuading NATO to accept the fact that only a genuinely
international peacekeeping force would be acceptable in
Yugoslavia and that NATO had to abandon its position that only a
NATO dominated force would be acceptable to it as a condition for
peace. Today NATO has finally moved to that position.
Early in the conflict it was clear that Milosevic was adamant
that there be no international presence in Kosovo. Today he
appears to have accepted that there not only must be an
international presence, but that there needs to be international
troops to ensure the safety and the security of Albanian Kosovars
returning home or remaining in their homes.
Early in the conflict the New Democratic Party began urging that
Canada persuade NATO to commit to a position that it would stop
the bombing immediately if Milosevic would stop the atrocities
and come to the table. We are not quite there yet, but we are
getting there. We now have Russia taking diplomatic initiatives.
There are signs of cracks in the Yugoslavian resolve to keep the
atrocities going. There is a courageous deputy prime minister in
Yugoslavia who is acknowledging that there must be some movement
by Yugoslavia.
Now is the time for Canada to play a bold and decisive role in
ensuring that we escalate, that we absolutely accelerate and
intensify our search for diplomatic solutions and, conversely,
that we do absolutely nothing to escalate the military action in
Kosovo.
The government has finally recognized that the participation of
Russia is key. Everybody who is following the situation in
Kosovo knows that the participation of Russia in helping to find
that diplomatic peaceful solution is key. What this means, if
this government wants to be taken seriously as a peacekeeper in
this country and around the world, is that this country must
absolutely provide leadership in persuading NATO to abandon the
madness of introducing an oil embargo and creating the spectre of
military and naval blockades that would without a doubt preclude
any possibility of Russia participating in finding a solution.
It is a time when we need the Government of Canada to show
leadership and courage. This is not a time to expand the
conflict in the air, at sea or on land. Canada must play no part
in the ill-conceived naval blockade that can only serve to
inflame tensions with the Russians and the Yugoslavs.
Finally, we ought to insist that Canada not send the additional
CF-18 fighter planes which the government committed Canada to do.
This is essential to indicate that we are serious about
recognizing that any escalation of military effort is going to
stand in the way of progress toward a diplomatic solution.
This would give an important gesture, a concrete gesture that
would underscore our commitment at this stage to secure a
diplomatic solution to the Kosovo crisis. No less is required of
us as Canadians and no less is required of us as citizens of the
world.
1020
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Madam Speaker, I am
pleased to rise today to speak to this very, very important
motion.
Last Thursday I had the occasion to visit Winnipeg to attend a
funeral which was held for a very close relative who had passed
away. Funerals have a way of bringing to light the stark reality
of life and death, what it is all about to be here on earth and
what we accomplish while we are here.
While I was in Winnipeg I also had the opportunity to visit with
my son who is living there. My son is a fine young man. I am
not saying that just because he is my son, he is a very fine
young man. He is a very peace loving young man and I am very
proud of him.
We were sitting in a restaurant having a bite to eat and he said
“Dad, I got in a fight not too long ago”. I was very
surprised. I said “You got in a fight?” He said “Yeah. I was
walking home and I saw this fellow who was drenched in blood. He
was covered with blood. Another person, quite a bit larger, was
standing over this person, beating him. I went over to talk to
the aggressor. I said `This is not necessary. Calm down.
Relax. Go home. It is all over”.
He was trying to bring peace to the situation. Then he turned
to the fellow who had been beaten up and he told him there was no
point in continuing with this, that he should just go on home.
The person who had been beaten up listened and decided to go.
Then my son turned around to leave because he thought the issue
was over. However, the aggressor, accompanied by two other
people, all charged him. One came at him from one side and one
came at him from the other side, and the three of them were
holding him. He looked at them and said “So it takes three of
you”. He must have touched a chord with their kind of macho
image. One fellow said “Let him go and we will fight one on
one”. The aggressor who had beaten up the other fellow went
after my son. My son, with his Judo instincts from his training
days when he was younger, very quickly took over, pinned this
fellow to the ground and held him so that he could not move. The
others were quite surprised. They said “Let him get up and we
will go”, and they backed off.
I was torn with conflicting opinions on the situation. I said
to him “Jamie, I am proud of you. You did something that was
good. You stepped in to try to help someone who was obviously in
distress”. However, I also said “It was kind of an interesting
situation. You were lucky because who knows what could have
happened. Those people could have had weapons and they could
have attacked you while you were down holding this fellow”.
There were a lot of risks involved.
The bottom line was that he had to make a choice. He made a
choice to take some risk to try to help someone who was in
distress, who was at a disadvantage, who was being bruised and
beaten.
I tell that story because it has similarities to the conflict in
Kosovo, where people have had to make hard choices which involve
risk. That was done at the beginning of this conflict. I do not
think anyone questions the motive for becoming involved in the
conflict. We were trying to assist people who were being taken
advantage of and we were trying to end the suffering and the
bloodshed. That was the motivation for becoming involved and for
remaining involved in this conflict.
However, we are at a point now where we have to very seriously
look at what this motion proposes, and that is intensifying and
accelerating our efforts to find a diplomatic solution—and I
emphasize the word diplomatic—to the crisis in Kosovo.
We know that in diplomacy there is always give and take on all
sides. We cannot have it so that someone can say “This is
exactly what I want and unless I get that I will not give
anything in return”. Diplomacy always involves a matter of give
and take. People involved in the labour movement know this. At
the negotiating table there is give and take.
1025
There are certain principles beyond which we do not go. For
example, in this case we know that there are certain principles
at stake; the principle of self-determination and so forth. We
re-affirm our support for that basic principle. However, in
negotiations and in diplomacy there is always give and take.
We are urging very strongly that the government take the lead in
finding a diplomatic solution, involving Russia and the United
Nations, to this very serious crisis. None of us can doubt the
seriousness of this crisis. All we have to do is look at our
televisions to see the images of the people who are suffering on
both sides of the conflict. We see the suffering that is taking
place and we know that the bottom line is that the conflict must
end.
As I said earlier, when we attend a funeral it comes home very
quickly that after all is said and done we all end up in that
same position, lying in a coffin with the life gone from us.
What people remember afterwards are the good deeds that we have
done, the way we have influenced someone's life as we passed
through.
I am reminded of a spiritual phrase which says that if I have
helped somebody as I pass this way then my living would not be in
vain. That is the goal which we must all strive toward, to not
have our living be in vain and to try to do what we can to help
people.
In this case we must help to bring about a diplomatic solution
to this problem, to make sure that no action is taken which
expands the conflict and makes it worse because we see that sort
of thing happening quite often. It could very well have happened
in the situation involving my son. He could very well have
become involved in a situation where the action he took could
have escalated things. Fortunately, he was able to take action
to calm the situation and to use the appropriate amount of force
necessary to bring an end to it.
It is because of our concern that nothing be done to expand or
prolong this conflict that I move:
[Translation]
Mr. Jean-Paul Marchand (Québec East, BQ): Madam Speaker, I want
to thank my colleague for his speech.
The member expressed his sympathy for the devastation going on
in Kosovo. The NDP clearly thinks this crisis could be settled
without violence. However, does the member not acknowledge that
Mr. Milosevic has violated every possible human principle and
value and is one of the worst tyrants imaginable?
1030
Does he also not recognize that extremely strong measures are
needed to fight this head of state, who has no respect for
people and denies their rights and is emptying Kosovo? Do they
not understand that strong measures such as ground troops are
needed in Kosovo to repulse the armies?
So long as the strongest measures are not taken against
Milosevic and the Serbian government, this unfortunate conflict
will remain unresolved.
Mr. Gordon Earle: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his
comments.
[English]
The example of my son being involved in a conflict addresses
that issue. He came upon a very serious and dangerous situation
where the human rights of a person were being violated. He
diplomatically used every effort to bring that particular
conflict to a conclusion, to the point where one of the parties
actually left the conflict through his persuasion.
Strength comes in many ways and through various means. There is
nothing weak about diplomacy if it is used properly. There is
nothing weak about exploring all those diplomatic avenues. I
feel that we have not explored all of them to their fullest.
There is no harm in doing that in order to bring an end to this
very serious situation.
Mr. Ted McWhinney (Vancouver Quadra, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, the hon. member for Halifax West, and indeed the hon.
member for Halifax, referred to diplomatic efforts.
I wonder if the hon. member would be in a position to advise us
if he has considered the latest peace plan, the Simitis peace
plan launched by the Prime Minister of Greece and communicated
yesterday.
Mr. Gordon Earle: Madam Speaker, I must admit that I do
not have all the details of that particular effort, but we
certainly feel that any and all efforts should be considered. It
is also very important to get as much information as possible on
all these efforts.
Certainly from my own perspective I would be more than pleased
to offer any assistance in terms of discussing any of these
issues directly with our ministers who are involved in trying to
promote these plans. It is an important issue and all of us must
contribute as much as possible to bring this kind of peace about.
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I
listened to the member very closely. I wondered if he was
receiving the sorts of letters from constituents that I am.
This is a letter from Ken Timewell in my riding, who writes “I
beg you to work for a peaceful solution. The humanitarian
solution being used by NATO is leaving behind too much
destruction and too many dead”. He goes on to encourage us to
use every possible tool that we can to encourage some sort of
diplomatic resolution.
Is the member receiving many letters like this, the way I
certainly am at the moment?
Mr. Gordon Earle: Madam Speaker, yes, I am receiving, as
I am sure many of our colleagues are, countless letters from
people across Canada who are concerned about the situation and
who are urging that peace be our main goal in this particular
conflict.
People are expressing concern about the environmental damage
that is taking place, the destruction of schools, the destruction
of historic buildings and all those casualties that go along with
the kind of conflict we see taking place. I am receiving lots of
letter in that regard.
Mr. Ted McWhinney (Vancouver Quadra, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, the motion launched today reminds us that, with the end
of the cold war, peace based on the status quo, which lasted for
almost half a century, has ended and we are having an historical
step backward, an historical anachronism, the revival of ethnic
conflicts of the sort we had at the end of the 19th century and
up to the war of 1914. It is one of the paradoxes that the cold
war ends and a new period of ethnic strife which simply revives
quarrels that existed before begins.
1035
Getting to the substance of the debate, we are a member of a
military alliance, for better or for worse, which was designed to
end the cold war and which worked very well, so much so that
after the Korean war there were no direct clashes between the two
superpowers or their rival blocs. The alliance is there. The
alliance called for this particular action. As a member of the
alliance, we accepted the obligations.
However, that does not mean that our continuing foreign policy
has been put to one side. The emphasis of Canada has always been
on quiet diplomacy rather than headline diplomacy. It remains
our effort to operate through international authority, through
the United Nations to which all regional security organizations
are subjected and legally subordinate.
The efforts are continuing. They are continuing through quiet
diplomacy. We must move in the first instance through the
security council while the possibility remains of getting
unanimous action there. These efforts are being pursued. The
foreign minister is going to Moscow later this week.
If the security council should be blocked, then the opportunity
remains on the uniting for peace precedent, referred to in the
House by the hon. member for Halifax West and others, to proceed
through the general assembly. It is worth going that extra mile
and going to Moscow. That step is being taken. The foreign
minister on his return from Moscow will call in on Athens.
In the last 25 years, and more particularly in the last several
years, Canada has had a special interest in promoting peaceful
solutions in the Balkans. We have been in continuing
negotiations with sometimes a breakthrough or a window of
opportunity seeming to emerge and then, no doubt for temporary
reasons, disappearing.
We have been negotiating an end to the Cyprus conflict on a
basis of one country and perhaps two regional parliaments or
otherwise within it. Nevertheless, we have been negotiating
for a solution. It is in that context that the foreign minister
will be discussing with the Greek prime minister the ambitious
plan that Mr. Simitis has launched.
There are merits in the Simitis plan that were not present in
the German or other plans. It takes note of what perhaps only a
member of the Balkan community can really be fully aware of, that
there are very rarely absolute rights and wrongs, and that the
capacity to demonize an opposition are not as readily present in
the Balkans at the end of the 20th century as it may have been in
the 19th century or in some other period.
In January, Mr. Pangalos, the Greek foreign minister at the
time, referred to an initiative that had been taken by the Balkan
neighbour countries to solve the then crisis in Albania, the near
civil war situation. It was solved by two Balkan countries,
Greece and Italy, Italy being a neighbour to the Balkan
countries, but regional countries going into Albania at the
invitation of the Albanian government and bringing peace and a
consensus under which that country now operates.
It is a precedent that can be expanded. If one operates within
the United Nations there is nothing to prevent the United Nations
from designating NATO as a peacekeeping force in Kosovo if and
when hostilities have ceased, but it would be under the authority
of the United Nations. There is nothing to prevent a designation
of a larger group which would include the addition to NATO of
Russia or other countries, but it could also be an all-Balkan
force and limited, conceivably—and this suggestion has been
made—to non-combatant countries in the present situation. There
are members of the NATO alliance that have not been engaged in
combatant activity.
I know the hon. members for Halifax and Halifax West would join
with me in saying that these are valuable initiatives, that each
new proposal should be considered and that they can be pursued
through the United Nations.
1040
Reference has been made to international law. At certain
periods I wondered whether the legal advisor had been fully
consulted. In my professional career, I have often cited the
example of President Kennedy and the Cuban missile crisis when
law and power operated together. When the president, as
commander in chief, consulted the legal advisor and said “Can we
do it”, he had been advised to bomb the Russian missiles in
Cuba. However, he rejected it on the advice of the legal
advisor. The solution, as we know, was a masterpiece of peaceful
diplomacy in resolving a dispute which eventually the adversaries
on both sides accepted gracefully.
Reference has been made to the naval blockade. I would remind
members that this is an example of policies in evolution. The
advice under international law, which was given to President
Kennedy in the Cuban missile crisis, is that a pacific blockade
can only be used to interdict access of the country that is being
blockaded. Third parties cannot be reached. President Kennedy
accepted that advice.
If members have been following the statements of our Minister of
National Defence which have been communicated to NATO, and the
opinion that President Chirac has expressed, which is in line
with the advice given to President Kennedy, in a pacific blockade
we cannot exclude third countries by forceful means. This advice
seems to have been taken.
This is an occasion in which a debate in the House has been
presented constructively without the desire to make newspaper
headlines. Let us solve this problem. Let us get on track and
in line with Canadian initiatives through the United Nations.
Let us go the extra mile, talk to the Russians and persuade our
allies and associates that this is the right way to go. This
process is in operation now. It has not been trumpeted in
national headlines but it is going on.
I would like to assure the House that we are trying to work
through the United Nations. We will explore all opportunities
for peace. After a peaceful solution it should be international.
I will put to rest the fears of many Serbian Canadians. It is
not part of Canadian foreign policy or internal policy to
demonize any members of our community. It is very clear that
reconstruction in the Balkans after the present operations must
also include Yugoslavia. We do not want to create a power vacuum
which was the situation in Germany after the hostilities ended in
1945. If we create a vacuum any sort of dangerous forces move
in. Peace and stability demand an inclusive and co-operative
effort through the United Nations.
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I
wonder if the member could respond to the types of letters I
mentioned in my earlier intervention.
I have another letter from Ken Timewell who is very interested
in this particular issue. Mr. Timewell does not support the
aggressive military action by NATO nor does he see how it can
possibly bring anything but added instability to the region. He
goes on to say that it is a tragedy that the Serbian military has
killed thousands of ethnic Albanians and forced hundreds of
thousands more to flee their homes. He also finds it tragic how
western governments have escalated the crisis with their support
of NATO while shunning the United Nations, having multiplied the
number of refugees and produced civilian casualties of their own.
Mr. Timewell asks us how we can justify supporting the illegal
bombing by NATO forces.
How would the hon. member respond to one of his constituents who
wrote that sort of letter to him?
Mr. Ted McWhinney: Madam Speaker, I am receiving hundreds
of well written and thoughtful letters from my constituents.
There are deep, emotional wounds on all sides in this situation.
People are writing and asking what to do.
1045
If we go on to the positive side, I think all parties within
parliament are trying to internationalize the effort, to revive
the United Nations role and to make sure that the reconstruction
which will follow, whether it is a completely diplomatic solution
or something less than that, will be in a spirit of comprehension
and understanding. I certainly think it is never a part of
Canadian policy to devastate a defeated enemy, if it is a
defeated enemy. There has to be a place for reconciliation. This
will be done.
We also recognize that the refugee situation, which is what
started it, was the prime argument for NATO's involvement and it
remains as part of the solution.
Mr. Bob Mills (Red Deer, Ref.): Madam Speaker, the motion
before us today is a good one. I commend the hon. member for
Halifax for introducing it. Her motion forces us to consider a
number of important issues that are now orbiting around the
conflict in the southern Balkans.
The first aspect of her motion is a call for a “diplomatic
solution to the crisis in Kosovo”. I fully endorse this
position and have done so from the very beginning of this latest
crisis in the federal republic of Yugoslavia. In the House on
April 12 I stated that the only durable solution for this
conflict was a negotiated one. I have heard nothing that has
changed my mind on this point.
The civil war in Kosovo is a confusing mixture of historical,
ethnic and current political problems. To understand what we are
confronting we must move beyond the rhetoric that comes so easily
to public figures.
The fighting today is not solely the result of Slobodan
Milosevic's policies. However, for 10 years his regime has done
nothing but inflame longstanding ethnic distrusts. Nor does the
answer lie, in my opinion, in the endorsement of an independent
Kosovo.
A resolution of the current fighting must try to address the
very real concerns for the security and safety of all people,
both Serbs and Albanian Kosovars, who have traditionally called
Kosovo their home. A dictated settlement that appears to favour
one side over the other will do nothing but sow the seeds of yet
another war some time in the future.
No war is ever inevitable. We can easily encourage future wars
if we try to impose a peace that one or the other side finds
unacceptable. That should not be the legacy of the current
intervention. I have always regarded the demand that Belgrade
accept the Rambouillet peace plan as an initial step toward a
more conclusive negotiated peace. The best solution to me seems
to be the substantial autonomy of Kosovo within the federal
republic of Yugoslavia, along with ironclad guarantees for ethnic
minorities. That autonomy must be understood as not challenging
in any way the sovereignty of Yugoslavia in Kosovo.
We must ensure that NATO does not fight to advance the most
radical Kosovar agenda. We cannot support the creation of an
independent and militant Kosovo, which would be the source of
instability to its neighbours for many years in the future. On
the contrary, NATO's actions must create a long term peaceful
settlement.
I am not involved in making policy for resolving the conflict of
Kosovo. That is the government's responsibility. However we
must make clear that the sole purpose of the current air campaign
is and must be to create the conditions for a negotiated
settlement. The idea of a war for war's sake is pointless. We
must therefore repeatedly ask the government to reassure the
House and the Canadian people that our participation in military
operations in Yugoslavia is consistent with the achievement of
the goal of a negotiated peace.
I am not convinced that the government is terribly concerned
about giving such assurances. The Prime Minister's comments last
week that we would simply follow along with whatever NATO decided
to do is extremely unsettling. It raises questions about whether
we even have an independent foreign policy.
His refusal to permit a free vote on this issue shows a lack of
interest in involving parliament in the prosecution of this war.
1050
The second aspect of the motion today concerns the role of
Russia. Everyone in the House will agree that we cannot build a
new European security system without the active participation of
Russia.
It is true that Russia can no longer project its military power
with the same effectiveness that it did during the cold war. It
is true that Russia is dependent upon western economic aid and
that Moscow recognizes this dependence. However the conditions
that prevail today will not always exist. Russia is never as
strong as it wants to be, but we must remember it is never as
weak as it looks. We must not act today in a fashion that would
undermine Russia's willingness to help preserve European
stability in the future. However, to some degree that is what we
have already done.
For the past five years Moscow openly opposed NATO enlargement.
Nevertheless we enlarged the alliance. That was not a mistake,
but we must recognize that Moscow viewed our decision with
concern.
For the past year Moscow has consistently advised NATO against
intervention in Kosovo. It argued that the situation is more
complicated than some western leaders would have us believe.
Nevertheless we have intervened and it is possible that the war
might still escalate.
For its part Russia has given every indication that it wants a
peaceful resolution of the conflict. President Yeltsin has
publicly stated that Russia will not get involved. He has
refused Belgrade's request for weapons. He has ignored the more
radical demands by radical members of the Duma. He has made no
effort to alter the status of the two Russian battalions now
serving with SFOR in Bosnia.
Some members might believe that Russia is not really relevant to
the quest for a solution in Kosovo. I believe exactly the
opposite. As a result of NATO's actions, Russia is the only
remaining great European power that Belgrade can trust to protect
its interests. We must therefore work with Moscow as much as
possible. We must listen to what it says about Kosovo and the
Balkans, a region it knows better than any of the rest of us.
Yesterday the Russian foreign minister stated that he would not
be a relay station to transmit new demands from either NATO or
Belgrade. He said that Russia was very willing to foster
dialogue and encourage negotiations. I think we should take him
up on that offer. The Chernomyrdin mission suggests that
President Milosevic might be prepared to negotiate. We should
not let this opportunity pass. Indeed we should encourage the
Russians in their efforts.
Listening to Belgrade does not mean that we have to accept what
is said. Nor does it require that we make unacceptable
compromises. So long as we do not abandon the basic moral and
political objectives of this war, we should always be prepared to
listen. In this light I hope the foreign minister is successful
when he travels to Moscow later this week.
The third aspect of the motion is to “urge NATO not to take
actions to expand the conflict”. I think we can also agree with
this sentiment. Indeed I feel certain that NATO would agree with
that, from looking at what happened this past weekend. However
the fear that NATO's actions might expand the conflict is
misplaced.
It is curious that the hon. member for Burnaby—Douglas, a
colleague of the mover of the motion, was the very first member
to advocate the commitment of ground troops. Indeed he did so
both stridently and aggressively. A few weeks ago in committee
he loudly demanded a ground invasion of Kosovo now. I am afraid
that type of action would inevitably lead to an expansion of the
conflict. In fact, it might radically change the nature and
purpose of the war. Therefore we must be very careful in using
such rhetoric or in moving in that direction.
I must add that I believe at this point that NATO's decision to
impose a naval blockade on Yugoslavia is ill timed and we do not
have enough information about that mission. I do not understand
the reasoning behind a decision that will almost certainly
antagonize Moscow.
It is no secret that I have many concerns about this war. I
raised many of them in the House on the day the hostilities
commenced. I repeated many of those concerns on April 12 and
have done so again today.
1055
I believe that NATO's use of force to stop the ethnic cleansing
in Kosovo is a legitimate policy. I also believe, as I have made
clear today, that we must continue the quest for a negotiated
peace settlement. This is not a case of wanting it both ways.
This is simply the reality of the international system.
Diplomacy must often be backed up by the threat of military
force. I hope the foreign minister has learned his lesson. Soft
spoken words in the ears of foreign leaders do not yield
influence. In simple terms, soft power without hard power is
intellectually bankrupt and politically worthless.
In conclusion, I reiterate my support for the motion before us.
On another day I might have quibbled about some of the anti-NATO
sentiments. However, we must rise above these disputes for the
greater purpose of seeking a swift and successful conclusion to
the current military operations under way.
I join the hon. member in urging the government to seek the
assistance of Russia in order to fashion a negotiated settlement
that is consistent with our moral values and regional interests.
Mr. Svend J. Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): Madam
Speaker, I welcome the support of the member for Red Deer for the
motion, but I did not want to let this opportunity pass without
correcting one very grave misrepresentation by the hon. member
during the course of his comments this morning.
The hon. member indicated that I as a spokesperson for the New
Democratic Party had called at a meeting of the foreign affairs
committee on March 31 for immediate use of ground troops in
Kosovo.
The hon. member knows that is absolute nonsense. In fact, the
hon. member will be aware of the fact that the position taken by
the New Democratic Party then is the position that we take today
and that my leader enunciated very clearly today. We must use
every possible opportunity to arrive at a negotiated peaceful
solution to this tragic conflict. We must accelerate our efforts
to do so within the United Nations, within the OSCE and
elsewhere.
Of course it will be necessary for there to be a peacekeeping
force on the ground with the ability to protect Kosovar Albanians
who are returning to their villages, to their homes.
We indicated as well that should diplomatic efforts fail, and I
emphasize that, should the kinds of efforts that have been
suggested including the importance of the Russian peace proposal
fail, should the ethnic cleansing and the atrocities on the
ground continue, then and only then there is a possibility we
might look at some form of safe haven.
I remind the member that was the position taken then but that
our fundamental objective is to stop the bombing, to stop the
atrocities on the ground, to get back to the negotiating table
under the auspices of the United Nations, to arrive at a
diplomatic solution and to arrive at a solution that will allow
the fundamental objective to be achieved, which is the return of
Kosovar Albanians to their homes, to their villages, to be able
to live in dignity, peace and security.
Mr. Bob Mills: Madam Speaker, certainly I think all of us
in committee and in the House have been disgusted, upset and have
wanted to respond to what we have seen on television and have
read in our newspapers about ethnic cleansing.
The initial response of let us bomb them to the negotiating
table was the correct one. I believe all five parties supported
it and said let us get on with it as soon as possible.
However, as that sunk in and as we thought about what it would
be like to go to war in the former Yugoslavia, whether we look at
the history from the Ottoman days or whether we talk about the
second world war and what happened or the first world war, all of
us realize now just how great it was.
Canada has not sent troops into a war for 46 years. That is a
long time. None of us here were part of those decisions. Maybe
a few members were who have been here a long time, but most of us
were not. As it sunk in I believe we realized just how we needed
to examine the whole thing and how many questions we needed to
ask.
We had to know about the mandate. We had to know about an exit
strategy. We had to know about how many people we might lose and
all those things.
1100
I have felt that way from the beginning. I think the member has
heard me speak about that. I thank him for his intervention. I
felt he was strongly supporting and urging an end to ethnic
cleansing by using ground troops, by air or by whatever it took.
That is what I heard.
[Translation]
Mr. Jean-Paul Marchand (Québec East, BQ): Madam Speaker, I would
like to propose to my colleague the position of the Bloc
Quebecois, which has always favoured a diplomatic solution in
order to protect the Kosovars and to do all within our power to
enable the Kosovars to return home as soon as possible.
Does he not think that, in view of the way it started, with Mr.
Milosevic trying to get rid the Kosovar people, he will continue
so long as there are diplomatic relations? In other words, does
he not think that diplomacy encourages Mr. Milosevic in his
efforts at ethnic cleansing?
[English]
Mr. Bob Mills: Madam Speaker, all of us are disgusted by
the ethnic cleansing which has gone on. If we look at the
history of that area, we will find that ethnic cleansing has been
going on for an awful long time by one group or another.
I do not believe it is fair to demonize just one side in this
case. There are many issues here and we do not have time to
discuss all of them. We need to find out how to get those sides
together. We have the same aims as everybody else, to get the
Kosovars back to Kosovo and find some way of making that work.
Ethnic cleansing is not acceptable, but as I mentioned in a
speech a few weeks ago, it is going on in 21 countries as far as
I can determine.
[Translation]
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Madam Speaker, first
I must tell our NDP colleagues how much the Bloc Quebecois
appreciates this further opportunity they are giving the House
to debate and discuss the Kosovo issue.
This House will not have too many opportunities to voice its
opinion, allowing each party to give its point of view on this
serious crisis, which is not only threatening peace and security
in the Balkans, but is also threatening or could threaten even
more international peace and security.
The Bloc Quebecois and the New Democratic Party are of a same
mind with regard to favouring a diplomatic approach, a
diplomatic solution to the crisis which has been going on for
too long in Kosovo and in this particularly hard hit area of the
Balkans.
We should all want to see this conflict settled through
diplomatic means, especially as we as a country and member of
the United Nations are committed to settle conflicts through
diplomatic means.
I would like to read for the record one of the purposes of the
United Nations, the organization the New Democratic Party is
referring to in today's motion. The first paragraph, article I
of its charter states:
The purposes of the United Nations are:
1. To maintain international peace and security, and to that
end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention
and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of
acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring
about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles
of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of
international disputes or situations which might lead to a
breach of the peace;
We should always keep in mind this important purpose, the
fundamental goal of the United Nations, and its Charter, which
should guide our collective actions in this area.
1105
This is the reason why the Bloc Quebecois must support this
motion from the New Democratic Party. As the hon. member for
Burnaby—Douglas often mentioned in the Standing Committee on
Foreign Affairs and in this House, and as his leader pointed
out, it is a diplomatic solution that will put an end to a
conflict that has already cost too many lives, including
civilian lives. Any war, including non-international armed
conflicts, as the Minister of Foreign Affairs likes to point
out, results in deaths, mostly among the civilian population.
The Bloc Quebecois has always maintained that a diplomatic
solution is to be favoured.
We supported the negotiations and actions that took place within
the contact group. We supported the Rambouillet negotiations. We
asked this government on numerous occasions whether it was
supportive of the will expressed by both sides to reach, through
these negotiations, an agreement that would prevent the use of
armed force.
We also insisted that the Government of Canada attach some
importance to the peace plan proposed by the German Minister of
Foreign Affairs, because for us, and for other parties and
individuals, including many Quebeckers and Canadians, the
ultimate solution to achieve peace is a diplomatic solution.
Today, the Bloc Quebecois is glad to see that efforts to
negotiate a diplomatic solution are being stepped up. Today,
American deputy secretary of state Strobe Talbott is negotiating
with Russian special envoy Mr. Chernomyrdin. These negotiations
could pave the way to a diplomatic solution.
Members of the European Union and, in particular,
representatives of the Federal Republic of Germany, who will be
chairing the Union for the next six months, have also focused on
a negotiated and diplomatic solution, an approach that has had
our whole-hearted approval.
We are also fully aware of the important role that the Minister
of Foreign Affairs could play in the discussions in which he
will take part on Thursday with the Russian president's special
envoy and his foreign affairs minister. We wish him all the
best in this worthy endeavour.
It deserves the support of this House. We believe that, coupled
with the other negotiations taking place, it could culminate in
a proposal that could be put before the UN security council,
because that is the body where the issue of how to restore peace
to Kosovo must again be debated.
The security council was always the forum where a solution to
this international dispute should have been negotiated. It is
unfortunate that the council had to be left out of the loop, and
not consulted on important decisions regarding a peaceful
resolution of the dispute in Kosovo.
In our view, the solution will lie in negotiations to bring
about a settlement and give the Kosovars, who have suffered too
much during this conflict, a say in their own future, which was
what the Rambouillet agreement set out to do.
1110
The Serbs and their representatives will see that a people's
call for autonomy cannot be ignored, that these demands must be
dealt with, and not be considered inappropriate.
This was the focus of the Rambouillet negotiations, and must be
the focus of negotiations at this time as well.
Moreover, our party has always believed that the use of less
peaceful means to reach a peaceful and negotiated solution ought
not to be excluded. We have supported the air strikes, and
continue to do so, for one reason and one alone, albeit a vital
one.
When it is a matter of putting an end to ethnic cleansing, of
preventing genocide—and we may learn in the coming weeks that
there was genocide in Kosovo, although we are not in a position
to know that today—and of putting an end to such crimes against
humanity, the use of force cannot be excluded.
Needless to say, this use of force is not the most appropriate
means of settling differences, and I trust that all the
negotiations currently under way will attain this much desired
settlement.
I join with the hon. member for Burnaby—Douglas in supporting a
motion focusing on this aspect and also inviting Russia to take
part in an international military force to ensure peace in
Kosovo.
I will close with a quote from Montesquieu. I like to quote
great authors on peace, war and power.
In The Spirit of Laws, Montesquieu speaks of power as “an
eternal experiment, and one any man with power is tempted to
abuse. Power will grow until such time as it is curbed. Even
virtue needs limits. If power is not to be abused, the world
must be so organized that power puts a stop to power”.
In this case, political power and persuasion must put a stop to
Milosevic, and freedom must be restored to the Kosovars.
Mr. Ted McWhinney (Vancouver Quadra, Lib.): Madam Speaker, the
hon. member is well aware that the Minister of Foreign Affairs
will go on a special mission to Moscow toward the end of the
week and that he will later meet with the Prime Minister of
Greece. The government wants the circle of concerned parties to
be widened. That circle must definitely go beyond NATO.
I wonder if the hon. member had an opportunity to look at the
Simitis plan, proposed yesterday by the Prime Minister of
Greece. That proposal has the benefit of emphasizing the role of
Kosovo's neighbouring countries. We all remember the Greek and
Italian mission to Albania, last year.
Will the hon. member give his support and the support of his
party to the Simitis plan?
Mr. Daniel Turp: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for
Vancouver Quadra for his question.
I notice that several peace plans are pointing in the same
direction. Under these proposals, the UN would play a
determining role in Kosovo, during the post-crisis period. Our
party supports the idea that the UN should be at the core of the
solution to this crisis and that we should call on UN
representatives when the time comes to establish a military
force.
1115
Also, we must not rule out the possibility of NATO member
countries, and people from these countries, taking part in a UN
force, or in a joint force, unless the objections raised by
Russia are critical to the point that such a force must
absolutely be under the control of the United Nations.
Russia must be involved in the decision that will be made. It
must, because the Serbian forces and President Milosevic will
have no choice but to accept a force in which Russia has agreed
to take part.
But the solution to this conflict truly lies in the UN getting
involved again, in a decision being made by the security
council, and in a force that will act during a set period to put
an end to ethnic cleansing, allow Kosovars to return to Kosovo,
and ensure that the Balkans can again find peace.
There is also a German peace proposal to restore stability in
the Balkans that deserves the serious consideration and the
support of all the states.
Mr. André Bachand (Richmond—Arthabaska, PC): Madam Speaker, we do
not have a lot of time, but I would like to thank the New
Democratic Party for allowing this House, once again, to
continue its debate on the events in Kosovo. Once again, this
is an opposition initiative.
This motion and the proposed amendment make significant
reference to the blockade or embargo that NATO and the European
countries have decided to decree. The New Democrats do not
support a blockade or embargo. In essence, the reason is to
avoid upsetting or angering Russia. Russia has been cropping up
in discussions since the start of this conflict.
However, I would remind my New Democrat colleagues that we
started bombing Yugoslavia and Kosovo without giving a whole lot
of thought to Russia.
Furthermore, I would point out that it was not an embargo or
blockade that was proposed, but a check, control, at the
borders, including those of Montenegro.
We read in this morning's paper, in statements by our own
Minister of National Defence and a German general, that no ships
will be stopped by force. Requests will be made to board ships
delivering cargo to Yugoslavia, including oil.
They said in their statement that there would not be too much of
a push. They are afraid of the reaction of the Russians. The
Minister of National Defence went even further, saying that
Russian oil exports to Yugoslavia would not be stopped.
There is a war of words. In addition to a real war, there is a
war of words that, in my opinion, is really not credible.
Why? Because, from the beginning, Yugoslavia was told that it
would be bombed but no ground troops would be sent. Now, it is
being told that there will be an embargo, but that no ships will
be stopped and Russia will be allowed to continue exporting its
oil.
There is a credibility problem in this war, no clear plan of
action. All eyes are on Russia. Our minister is to hold
meetings; it is worth mentioning and worthy of our appreciation.
After this visit, Russia will probably put a resolution before
the security council. The council will say that, in the event
of a ceasefire—not peace, because negotiating peace is a long,
drawn-out affair—in Kosovo and in Yugoslavia, Russia should lead a
force under the UN. We will quickly see this in the security
council in the days and weeks ahead.
And all to the good, if it will end the war.
Increasingly, we are seeing cracks and divisions beginning to
develop in the Yugoslavian bloc, just as they are developing in
this House. We are starting to qualify our initial reactions,
our initial statements, our initial press releases. Divisions
are becoming apparent in Parliament.
1120
It is clear that the House is divided, just as the Yugoslavian
parliament is divided. The Yugoslav deputy prime minister—who
may or may not be credible—is becoming open to the idea of a
unilateral ceasefire, on condition that troops are withdrawn
from Kosovo. There is no talk of peace. That will require
negotiation, and a signed agreement. But at least there is talk
of a ceasefire.
This is good news because President Milosevic has been called so
many names, and accused of war crimes and of crimes against
humanity. It was difficult, therefore, for NATO to find someone
with whom it could eventually sign a peace accord. It would
appear there is now a breach in the Serb bloc, which could lead
to a peaceful settlement.
We are seeing the same thing here. During the first two weeks of
fighting, opposition parties, especially the New Democratic
Party and the Bloc Quebecois, had rather harsh positions and
were talking about genocide in Kosovo and deploying ground
troops there. The NDP member corrected our Reform colleague but
I too remember that we were talking rather tough. The media were
reporting that several opposition parties were calling for the
deployment of ground troops. Today the situation has changed. We
are talking diplomacy. Of course it is important, we have been
saying it all along.
But we should restrain NATO's eagerness. Let us not forget the
war in Kosovo is been conducted under NATO's auspices. In the
end what the amendment from the New Democratic Party is saying
is that NATO should maintain its current position and not do
more. What a nice message for Milosevic. It is as if we were
saying to him “Don't worry, we will not deploy ground troops, we
will not prevent you from buying oil or food”. This is not the
kind of message we ought to be sending. The initial message was
loud and clear. Are we going to stick to it or not? If not, let
us get out of there real quick.
I do not believe anything will come of this idea of a blockade
or embargo, because at any rate right here in Canada, in Germany
and elsewhere in the world people are saying it is not a real
blockade, a real embargo.
We are now seeing Canada multiplying diplomatic initiatives,
which is good.
But what did Canada do before the war? On one of the occasions
when the Minister of Foreign Affairs appeared before the
Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, I asked him what efforts
and actions Canada had taken in the 9 to 12 months prior to this
war. The minister is supposed to be providing us with that
information. What action did Canada take to try to prevent this
war? What efforts did it make on the diplomatic front?
At this time we are at war, and the diplomatic process is being
stepped up, as indeed it should be. But what was done in the
past? We do not know. What was Canada's role before the war?
The government has kept very quiet so far. We are still waiting
for the documents. This is not very credible, unless we are
given evidence to the contrary. We are still waiting for the
information.
Much emphasis has been put on Russia, and Canada also wants to
play an important role. Canada is an aggressor in Kosovo.
It is, therefore, certain that a third party will have to step
in, before an end to this conflict can be reached, hopefully.
Yesterday, the President of Libya was putting in his two cents
worth. Canada can play an important diplomatic role, but not
with the Serbs. This is impossible. We are one of the
aggressors in Kosovo, so a third party needs to be called in,
and that third party is Russia.
We also need to wonder what sort of ceasefire there will be, in
the near future, or so I hope. What sort of peace treaty will
there be? There are many differing opinions here in this House,
as well as on the international scene. Will there be a
protectorate? Will the be an accord similar to the Rambouillet
accord? In the schedule appended to the Rambouillet agreement, it
was set out that three years after its signing, the Kosovars
would be asked about their future. Would they opt for
independence, autonomy or a protectorate?
The Serbs refused, because they consider Kosovo part of
Yugoslavia, and they would never let it go. Autonomy within
Yugoslavia is one thing. Independence, never.
1125
The Rambouillet agreement contained an important element, which,
rightly or wrongly, offended the Serbs, and which was the fact
that three years later a referendum would be held and the
Kosovars would decide their future. This may be a fine thing in
the Canadian context, it is very democratic, but, in the Balkan
context, it is another matter.
The whole picture needs reassessing. There is a lot of
improvisation going on. Everyone recognizes that a tragedy is
unfolding in Kosovo. As the conflict continues, peace plans are
being proposed. Measures that are not really applicable are
being advanced. There is talk of ground troops and then there
is talk that there will not be any.
There is a significant lack of planning.
We hope that things will be resolved very quickly. Here in
Ottawa, today, the weather is fine, the sun is shining. In
Kosovo and in Yugoslavia the roads, bridges, houses, water
supply and electrical systems are all destroyed. If the war
lasts another two or three months, what will happen to the
750,000 Kosovar refugees in Albania? Winter will come. Will
they spend winter in little tents? The country is destroyed.
We need to find a peace agreement very soon. We must propose
effective means and be credible in our proposals.
[English]
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian (Brampton Centre, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I followed intensely the comments made by the hon.
member, who sits on the the foreign affairs committee with me.
Almost a decade ago the Berlin wall collapsed and the Warsaw
treaty was no longer in force. NATO is now the only military
alliance in Europe.
Let us think forward and assume that the Kosovo issue is
resolved. Because the Warsaw pact is no longer in force to
counter NATO and the UN, what kind of changes does the hon.
member envision for NATO that would prevent its members from
acting differently than they would have 10 years ago when the
Warsaw pact was in place? Does he have any suggestions to make
with respect to revamping NATO and the UN so that we can go
forward into the 21st century with new institutions and without
the cold war?
[Translation]
Mr. André Bachand: Madam Speaker, since we are in the middle of
a conflict, we are not talking about revamping a system or an
organization. In fact, there was not really any discussion of
major changes at the Washington summit. Why? People are
waiting to see what reaction there will be to NATO's involvement
in the conflict in Kosovo. Then there will be a debriefing as
to whether or not NATO did the right thing. The analysis can
come later.
I remind the House that NATO was not created to do what it is
now doing in Kosovo. It took a unilateral decision, without any
real negotiations or discussion, to play an offensive role. It
may be right, but the fact remains that a small group made this
decision without any real negotiations or discussion.
People are asking what role NATO should play. It is no longer
the same organization that it was 50 years ago.
It has changed completely. In fact, the various types of
international organizations should be reviewed.
Will NATO become an organization for ensuring the military
protection of Europe, as seems to be happening, in which case
there will be military forces on every continent to ensure a
certain stability? Maybe so, and maybe not.
Thought is being given to revamping NATO. The organization has
undergone a rapid metamorphosis over the past year. Should NATO
revert to its original role, or stay as it is? That is perhaps
the real question.
[English]
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Madam Speaker, I
listened with intent to the hon. member's discourse. He
expressed some concern about the NDP position on this issue. The
NDP's position has been consistent from day one.
We want peace. We are simply by this motion calling on the
government to intensify and accelerate diplomatic efforts to
bring about this peace.
1130
The hon. member also expressed concern, and quite rightly so,
about the devastation and destruction that is taking place in
Yugoslavia.
The hon. member asked what kind of message we are giving to
Milosevic. Does the member feel that the message we are putting
forth, a strong desire for peace and a desire to use every
diplomatic effort to obtain peace and end the destruction is
wrong?
[Translation]
Mr. André Bachand: Madam Speaker, the problem is what kind of
message we want to send Milosevic.
At the beginning of the conflict, everyone agreed on a tough
stand. Today, members are questioning the decisions of NATO and
the European Community regarding an embargo or a naval blockade.
Through its amendment, one party in the House is questioning
those decisions, rightly or wrongly, it does not matter.
What message are we sending today? NATO has decided to impose
an embargo or a blockade, not a very stringent one, but still it
has decided to announce one and Europe supports it. We are
saying that this is not the way to go.
There should be no naval blockade or other intervention,
including ground troops. What message are we sending with
respect to the seriousness of past, present and future military
intervention in Kosovo?
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Madam Speaker, I will share
my time with the hon. member for Regina—Qu'Appelle.
It is with great sadness that I rise in this House today to
express my thoughts on the action that Canada must take in light
of the critical situation that currently prevails in Kosovo.
The NDP is raising this issue today because thousands of
Kosovars are deprived and without shelter, security and recourse
as a result of the unthinkable actions of their own government.
This is a complex issue and the decisions that face us are among
the most difficult that our country has ever had to make.
Since the beginning of this crisis, the NDP has been advocating
a diplomatic solution. But, tragically, initial efforts failed.
Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic refused to participate in
a constructive dialogue or to make compromises. Instead, he
continued his reign of terror in Kosovo.
We are currently witnessing a serious humanitarian crisis. The
Milosevic government embarked on an ethnic cleansing campaign,
in an effort to scare away Kosovars from Albanian origin.
Villages are in flames; men, women and children are being
killed; women are being raped. Milosevic seems to have succeeded
in scaring away terrified Albanian Kosovars.
We remember the atrocities committed in Bosnia by Milosevic,
where over 200,000 people died. Can we allow ourselves to let
Milosevic continue his rampage?
As this human tragedy worsened daily, the NDP acknowledged that
there are times when the world community must react to human
rights violations with actions, not just words. This is why the
NDP has acknowledged the importance of responding with military
strikes. Milosevic had to be shown that such atrocities would
not be tolerated by the international community.
Before the NATO air strikes, 250,000 Albanian Kosovars saw their
houses burned before their very eyes. If the western powers had
not intervened after so many final warnings to Milosevic, they
would have been sending a message to the Serbian leader and to
other tyrants that it was acceptable to terrorize people and to
violate human rights, without facing any consequences.
The decision to use air strikes is certainly not an easy one,
but were we supposed to do nothing in response to Milosevic's
attacks against humanity?
1135
I would like to quote what Tommy Douglas said at the time of the
Second World War:
But the success of the air strikes is now being questioned.
Ethnic cleansing has been stepped up, and there has been a
dramatic increase in the number of refugees.
We have a duty to put an end to this human suffering and to come
to the aid of the hundreds of thousands of Kosovars who have
lived with this terror for too long.
This is why the NDP is proposing, after 35 days of strikes, a
solution based on five elements.
The first is the immediate cessation of NATO air strikes on the
condition that the Serb government agree to resume negotiations
and put an immediate end to hostilities against the Albanian
Kosovars.
The second is the holding of negotiations under the auspices of
the United Nations with Russia's participation.
The third is that the Canadian government should request a
special meeting of the UN general assembly to debate the Kosovo
crisis.
The fourth is that no Canadian military contingent is to be sent
without a special debate in the House with the members voting on
the matter.
And the fifth is that the UN High Commissioner for Refugees is
to continue to help refugees in Macedonia and Albania.
I will use as an example my years of experience in negotiations
between unions and employers, where there is a labour conflict.
This boils down to pretty much the same thing, because conflict
is also involved here.
Conflicts are always resolved at the negotiating table. It may
take a week, two weeks, a month, or three months, but in the
end, the parties must return to the negotiating table. It is
there that conflict is resolved.
This is why the NDP is saying that the negotiating table is
where these conflicts will be resolved, sometimes with a change
in position. I have an example. On the day of the strike, we
are in a strong position and that is what we want. The employer
too is in a strong position and that is what he wants. If no
one is prepared to shift their position, the strike will go on.
This is why no one can have an absolute position. You have to
always be ready to change.
The five elements I mentioned earlier underscore the importance
of a diplomatic solution.
Following our interventions here in the House, the government
finally recognized the importance of diplomatic efforts by
sending the Minister of Foreign Affairs to Russia later this
week.
We must focus all our efforts to bring an end to this conflict.
This is why we are asking the government to intensify and speed
up efforts to find a diplomatic solution to the crisis in Kosovo
by ensuring that Russia and the United Nations are involved.
Once again, I draw on my union example. Sometimes it is
necessary to appeal to mediators to help the parties find a
solution. Russia must be seen as a mediator and be able to
intervene and propose solutions to this conflict.
NATO must also be encouraged not to take actions that would
extend the conflict and hamper the search for a diplomatic
solution.
I come back to my example of a union. When workers are on strike
or in a lockout situation and solutions are being sought, if one
party resorts to extreme measures, this will sometimes make
matters worse. We then think “If only they would calm down and
go back to the bargaining table”. Even the government agrees.
This is why we must put these things into place today.
The context seems increasingly favourable to a diplomatic
solution. We must help make things happen and create a situation
where Russia and the United Nations can play a leading role in
resolving this conflict.
That is why we are so categorically opposed to a naval embargo.
Such an embargo would only increase tensions and adversely
affect efforts to find a diplomatic solution.
Canada can provide meaningful leadership in the search for
diplomatic solutions to this conflict. We should immediately
focus our efforts on this type of solution. These must also
focus on the assistance we can provide to the tens of thousands
of refugees.
1140
These people often find themselves separated from their
families, after witnessing the killing of loved ones in some
cases. In the safety of our homes here in Canada, it is hard for
us to imagine a situation where people are deprived of
everything and have no way out. We must therefore do our utmost
to put an end to this suffering.
[English]
I would like to congratulate the thousands of Canadians for
their efforts to contribute goods and money to help the Kosovar
refugees. They have demonstrated once again that Canadian
generosity can always be counted on in times of hardship.
[Translation]
I also want to mention the efforts of all the humanitarian
groups that bring direct and indirect support to the refugees.
It is through their efforts that we hope to be able to alleviate
the devastating impact of Milosevic's actions.
Finally, we must turn our attention to the Canadian military
personnel participating with courage and integrity in these
operations. They are the ones making the greatest sacrifice and
we are grateful for that. We also thank their families for being
so understanding under the circumstances.
We all hope that this conflict will be settled as soon as
possible, so that the members of our Canadian forces can come
home safe and sound.
[English]
Mr. Murray Calder (Dufferin—Peel—Wellington—Grey,
Lib.): Madam Speaker, I listened with a lot of interest to
the member's speech. He asked how we can stop the human
suffering. He made the point that he felt we should get back to
the negotiating table to solve the problems. He wanted a
diplomatic approach. Then he also said that he wants no further
action by NATO.
We already know that unless Milosevic is confronted with force,
he will not go back to that table. He has already proven that.
The actions by the NATO forces right now have basically stopped
the fuel supply to his army so his tanks cannot move. We have
taken out bridges so they cannot cross rivers. Does the member
really think if NATO withdrew at this point in time that
Milosevic would go back to the negotiating table and negotiate in
good faith? Does the member think that?
Mr. Yvon Godin: Madam Speaker, I have never said that we
should withdraw. I have said that we should not increase it.
If we put an embargo on the fuel going to Kosovo, another
country may get involved in this issue. Instead we would want
that country to go there and negotiate peace. That is what is
important.
I want to make it clear that what we have said is not to remove.
If we remove ourselves from it, we want everybody to stop. We
want Milosevic to stop the killing he is doing in Kosovo. At the
same time, let us stop the hitting and go to the negotiating
table. If that does not happen, we are not saying that we should
remove ourselves, but that we should not increase it. That is
what is important. I want that to be clear.
[Translation]
Mr. Jean-Paul Marchand (Québec East, BQ): Madam Speaker, I
greatly appreciated the comments by my colleague from
Acadie—Bathurst.
I remind him that in 1755 the Brits deported the Acadians. In
those days, the situation was non negotiable. The Brits had
total control over the situation, so much so that those who
would have offered to negotiate a peaceful settlement to the
conflict would never have been heard. The Brits succeeded in
their endeavour because they had the power and determination to
do so.
The way the situation is evolving in Kosovo is a bit like that.
We might talk about and wish for a negotiated settlement to the
conflict, but is it feasible? As my colleague said earlier,
Milosevic is a barbarian. He has terrorized Kosovo. He has
violated the rights of a whole population.
We know he has exterminated, killed thousands of people. We may
get more accurate figures once the conflict is over.
It seems rather obvious that while we want a negotiated
settlement to this conflict, we must realize that Milosevic has
no intention of negotiating.
1145
His goal is to rid Kosovo of its population to seize one half,
one quarter or a third of the territory. Of course, he would
like to have all of it. In the end, there is only one solution,
and that is to keep up the pressure against this barbarian, to
force him back to the negotiating table. Wishful thinking will
settle nothing.
Does the member not believe this situation is very similar to or
worse than what the Acadians went through in 1755?
Mr. Yvon Godin: Madam Speaker, my colleague spoke of the
Acadians of 1755. I wanted to speak of them in my remarks, but
have chosen not to. I would never want it to happen again,
because the people at home, although our ancestors left, still
talk about 1755, the year the Acadians were sent away from their
country and arrived here in Canada by boat.
Is the solution to say that there is no limit and that
everything will be destroyed? That is the issue.
There are strikes at the moment, but how many are we prepared to
do? Is success achieved through destroying another people? I
agree with my colleague that Milosevic is wicked, but are we
going to destroy his people? Are the people wicked or is it he?
This is where we have to use our good judgement and ask
ourselves whether we are doing enough.
Negotiations, however, could help, and I think that is—
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): I must unfortunately
interrupt the hon. member because his time has expired.
[English]
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Madam
Speaker, I wish to say a few words in the debate this morning,
basically to underline the importance of a serious diplomatic
thrust to try to bring an end to this very unfortunate conflict.
Hopefully the initiatives being taken now by the foreign affairs
minister, by the Russians and by others will bear fruit. We
should put a real emphasis on trying to accelerate the diplomatic
efforts of finding peaceful solutions to what is happening in
Yugoslavia, what is happening in Kosovo.
It need only be said in passing that we oppose what Milosevic is
doing. It is abhorrent. It is barbaric. Something has to be
done to stop what he is doing to the people in Kosovo. I also
believe that we should try to escalate the presence of the United
Nations in terms of it taking an initiative to do what it can to
bring about a very peaceful solution. Right now people are
suffering in that part of the world. People are being bombed.
People are being killed. People are being exterminated. That has
to end and end as soon as possible.
I want to try to bring a bit of human face to this situation if
I possibly can. In 1968 I had the opportunity to go into the
middle of a very vicious civil war in Nigeria, into the breakaway
province of Biafra. This morning I dug up a comment in a speech
I made in the House on November 26, 1968, a little over 30 years
ago. I was only 12 years old; I was elected at the age of 11 or
thereabouts to the House.
I spent two weeks over there. I spent one week on the Nigerian
side and I spent one week in the war zone on the Biafran side. I
had an experience which changed my life forever in terms of what
humanity is all about. I literally saw people dying after being
bombed. I saw people dying of starvation in huge sick bays in
refugee camps.
At that particular time I travelled there with a Liberal member
of parliament by the name of Ralph Stewart. Before us a couple
of other MPs had gone, a Conservative named David MacDonald and a
New Democratic named Andrew Brewin. We went there to try to
bring attention to the suffering and the need for some
humanitarian help.
I can remember flying into what was then known as Biafra. At
that time the Nigerian armies had encircled the province of
Biafra. There was a form of genocide going on where hundreds of
thousands of people were dying. We flew in under the cover of
darkness on a church plane bringing drugs and landed on a small
jungle air strip. I spent seven horrifying days actually seeing
what happens when there is war.
1150
I remember being caught in a bombing raid and having bombs drop
literally a few metres away. We thought we were going to die
because these bombs were coming out of the darkness of a jungle
night. People were screaming. Some people were saying the
rosary. Other people were crying and running and being
scattered.
The terror is hard to put into words. I reread the speech I
made in the House back on November 26, 1968 describing the trip.
The then minister of external affairs was Mitchell Sharp, and he
spoke right after me.
One of the things we saw was a Catholic hospital that had just
been bombed. Another was a Red Cross hospital that had just been
bombed, both of them by mistake, I am sure, according to the
military authorities at the time.
We also went to many refugee camps and what they called feeding
centres and sick bays. They would feed people at five o'clock in
the morning just before dawn, before sunrise, because if the
bombers came over and saw a huge crowd of people in a jungle
opening there was a chance that there could be an attack.
One of things I referred to in my speech, and I remember it to
this day, was going to a feeding bay where they had 3,500
pregnant and nursing women coming for their daily iron pills and
a bit of fish stock that was provided because of the protein in
fish.
To go through this experience, to get caught in a bombing raid,
to hear the airplanes doing the strafing, to go up to a war front
and see wounded soldiers, and to be close enough to hear the
rat-a-tat-tat of machines guns in the darkness of a jungle night,
it certainly had an impression on me. I did not think I would
come back many times during that one week. It had an impression
on me of how uncivilized human beings are at times to one
another. Everything has to be done to bring an end to that kind
of torture and torment. I just wanted to relate some of those
comments to try to make this situation a little more real.
The brunt of the situation now is being borne by the Kosovars
who are in huge refugee camps. Some are in Macedonia and some in
Albania. Many of the Kosovars are still trapped behind the lines
in their native province, the part of Serbia they come from and
have lived for many years. Many of these people are dying of
starvation. Many of these people are being shot. They are being
executed.
I remember when I was in Biafra, for example, at a hospital or a
church when a worker came out of the jungle with a child in his
arms who might have been four or five years old. The child was
basically just the skeleton of someone who was barely clinging to
life. In my life I have never seen a person as emaciated or
skinny as that little child was.
That kind of thing is happening now. It is happening in
Yugoslavia and it is happening because of a madman named
Milosevic. It is also happening because there are NATO bombs
being dropped in Yugoslavia.
When I was in these little jungle villages and lying there with
bombs dropping, I realized one thing. A bomb does not
discriminate between a very poor black African peasant and a
white politician from the western world. It does not
discriminate at all. If one did not believe that going into that
situation, it becomes a reality extremely quickly when a bomb is
dropping out of the sky. We all have the same kinds of fears.
Those people are going through hell on earth and there is no
better way of putting it than that. It is an absolute hell on
earth. We should do what is being initiated today. We should do
whatever we can to escalate the diplomatic offensive by bringing
in Russia, the United Nations and other countries like Canada
that are highly respected in the international forum and building
up the diplomatic offensive to try to bring an end to the
killing, the torture, the bloodshed and the hell on earth that is
occurring in that part of the world. That is what we have to do.
At the same time we should signal as a country that we do not
want to escalate the conflict by being part of a naval blockade.
I do not think we should be doing that. It just leads into the
possibility of making the situation more of a tinderbox. It
brings in the possibility of a conflict with Russia.
The oil that goes into Yugoslavia comes primarily from Libya and
from Russia. As the President of France, Jacques Chirac, said a
few days ago, if one stops a ship bringing oil to that part of
the world it is basically an act of war. We know the situation
now in Russia where there is basically no government. It is a
situation that is almost analogous to anarchy. There are
ultranationalists, communists, unrest and economic chaos. It
would not take much to push that country into a situation where
this conflict could escalate beyond control of the world.
We should do everything we can, absolutely everything we can, to
bring a diplomatic end to this kind of a crisis. Those people
are suffering. Those people are dying.
1155
As we talk today there is a child dying. There is somebody
being shot, someone being mutilated. Thousands of people are
hungry. People have lost their families. People are crying.
People do not know where their homes are. Their homes have been
destroyed. This is real and genuine human suffering.
We stand here in a parliament well dressed, well fed, well
nourished and with shelters over our heads. It is difficult to
imagine the suffering these human beings are going through. They
are like us. They are human beings. They are being deprived of
their loved ones. They are human beings that suffer pain and
death and see their families being killed.
This kind of thing is very dangerous and could escalate. We
have a fine reputation around the world, going back to the days
of Lester Pearson and before, where we are the peacemakers. We
are respected. We have diplomatic clout and diplomatic power. We
should do all we can to escalate that and emphasize that in the
hours and days that remain in the next week or so.
Mr. Ted McWhinney (Vancouver Quadra, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I compliment the hon. member for Regina—Qu'Appelle on
his intervention. I have two points.
Would he not agree that after the initial statements from NATO
on a naval blockade, the commentaries made by the Minister of
National Defence are very close to those used by President
Kennedy in the Cuban missile crisis where a similar situation
existed in the naval terms, which were fully compatible with
international law? The Government of Canada is very clear on its
commitment to international law and its commitment to the United
Nations.
Would he not agree also that after fulfilling our obligations to
NATO, we are bending our efforts in the last few days and the
last few weeks to getting the issue back to the United Nations?
That is the explanation of the mission to Moscow of the foreign
minister, the mission to Greece, the discussion of the Simitis
plan for a more inclusive international force which must
certainly be there when peace is restored.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom: Madam Speaker, I certainly agree and
I think that is what I said at the beginning of my remarks.
I am pleased there are some initiatives on the diplomatic front.
I am pleased our Minister of Foreign Affairs will be involved in
these diplomatic initiatives. I am pleased the Secretary General
of the United Nations is now trying to involve himself and the
United Nations in seeking a diplomatic solution to what is
happening in Yugoslavia and Kosovo.
I fully agree with what the member has said. I am sorry I was
not here for question period yesterday. I have no idea what the
Minister of National Defence said either inside or outside the
House.
[Translation]
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I
would like to thank our colleague from Regina—Qu'Appelle for
sharing his Biafran experiences with us. It was very useful for
this House to hear them.
Others could tell similar stories of events in Sierra Leone,
southern Sudan, Iranian or Turkish Kurdistan, more tales of
atrocities, rapes and crimes against humanity, which are as
serious in those regions and countries as they are in others,
and this is what must be of concern to us in the aftermath of
this crisis. These other crises must be considered equally
important and they too merit diplomatic intervention and
solutions.
I like it when there are references made to the late Lester B.
Pearson, for there is one thing the two of us have in common.
Like the former Prime Minister and Minister of External Affairs,
I favour bow ties.
But my question to the hon. member for Regina—Qu'Appelle is as
follows: The motion refers to United Nations participation. I
would like to know exactly what the NDP members have in mind.
They are, no doubt, aware that the United States appears to be
behind a security council resolution at this time, which calls
for the council to again get involved in this international
dispute.
Is this what they had in mind or is it, first and foremost, UN
participation in an international military or civilian force in
Kosovo.
1200
Hon. Lorne Nystrom: Madam Speaker, now there is a very important
UN initiative. The secretary general is in Europe. This is a
very important initiative. We support it.
[English]
Also in the future there is going to be a ceasefire, there is
going to be a settlement, and hostilities will stop in that part
of the world. I believe there is going to be a need for an
international force to keep the peace. We believe in our party
that the force should come under the auspices of the United
Nations.
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I will be sharing my time with a colleague.
Over the past few months we have witnessed the greatest
humanitarian disaster in Europe since World War II. In the heart
of Europe and on NATO's doorstep the people of Kosovo have been
forced to abandon their homeland and have suffered unimaginable
atrocities, not because of anything they have done, but simply
because of who they are. We hear reports of men being taken
outside their homes to be shot, women being raped in front of
their families and children being orphaned.
The motion before the House calls for a diplomatic solution.
This has always been the preferred course and NATO's political
objectives still include a diplomatic settlement. This motion
not only ignores this fact, it also ignores the situation which
confronts us.
After long and hard months of political and diplomatic activity,
Canada and its allies have chosen to taken military action. The
resort to military force in Yugoslavia was a decision reluctantly
taken, but Mr. Milosevic left us no choice. He consistently has
refused to live up to agreements he has made. At the 11th hour
at Rambouillet the Yugoslavs turned their backs on diplomacy.
Taking military action was, and still is, the right decision.
The alternative, to do nothing and allow Mr. Milosevic to pursue
his deliberate policy of repression and ethnic violence, was
simply unacceptable to Canada, the NATO alliance and, indeed, the
international community. By responding as we did, Canada and its
allies have taken a strong step toward a goal that has always
been in our national interest, a peaceful and democratic Europe.
Our military objective is clear and our will to see it met is
unshakeable. The NATO campaign is aimed at diminishing and
degrading the tools the Milosevic regime has been using against
helpless civilians in Kosovo since last year: the Yugoslav
military, the police and paramilitary forces.
This will not be a short mission. It is difficult to be patient
amidst such a humanitarian tragedy, but we should not waver from
our chosen course. All NATO allies understood from the beginning
that the struggle was not going to be easy. Military operations
as large as this rarely are easy, if ever, and we need to provide
the desired results as soon as we can, but it will take time.
The air campaign is having an effect on the Yugoslav military
and police forces. The first phase of the air campaign struck at
the nervous system of the Yugoslav military machine, its air
defence and command and control networks. The second phase is
designed to degrade the overall strategic capability of the
Milosevic regime. This includes strikes against Yugoslav forces
operating in and outside Kosovo, at military infrastructure and
at other assets which allow the Yugoslav forces to operate.
Past experience shows that Mr. Milosevic does not respond
without pressure. NATO operations are making him pay a price for
his actions. In the space of a few weeks NATO attacks have
destroyed more than 50% of Yugoslavia's fuel reserves and
significantly reduced the capacity to refine the remaining oil.
Sixteen of Yugoslavia's early warning radar sites have also been
severely damaged or destroyed, and 35 ground attack aircraft and
half of Serbia's MiG-29 Fulcrum fleet are gone. Airfields and
aircraft support facilities have been severely damaged and key
routes which Yugoslav forces used to move supplies to and from
Kosovo and other parts of the country have been degraded.
It is important for everyone to recognize that these strikes are
having a real impact on the situation on the ground. Yugoslav
forces are running into problems with fuel, with munitions and
they are having trouble supplying their planes and tanks. NATO
has steadily intensified its air campaign by increasing the scope
and tempo of operations and will continue to do so until Mr.
Milosevic accepts the legitimate demands set out by the
international community.
1205
Over the course of the last three weeks Canada and other NATO
allies have increased their contribution of aircraft to the
campaign. The Canadian forces are playing a significant role in
this operation and we are all very proud of their efforts in that
regard. Our initial contribution of six CF-18 fighter aircraft
was increased to twelve in response to a NATO request for
additional combat power. In response to NATO's most recent
request for additional aircraft, Canada announced on April 17
that another six CF-18s would be deployed, bringing the total
Canadian contribution of CF-18s to eighteen.
Canadian forces members are also playing an important role by
flying in the NATO airborne warning and control aircraft. These
planes not only help direct our planes to their targets, they
also provide warning information about hostile aircraft.
NATO is prepared to introduce ground forces in Yugoslavia to
monitor and enforce a peace agreement along the lines set out by
the Rambouillet talks in February. That is important to note.
This is a clear demonstration that although we are currently
engaged in military operations, NATO wants and is desperately
looking for a diplomatic solution, and is actively preparing for
the time when such a solution is reached. I believe that is
important.
If Mr. Milosevic chooses peace and meets the demands of the
international community—and we hope he does—a peace monitoring
and implementation force will be established. As the government
announced during the House debate on this subject, Canada is
prepared to contribute between 500 and 800 personnel to this end.
This past weekend in Washington NATO marked its 50th
anniversary. There was a clear message of unity and
determination among alliance members to end the violence in
Kosovo. The crisis represents a fundamental challenge to the
values for which NATO has stood for half a century: democracy,
human rights and the rule of law.
Canada and its allies seek a diplomatic solution, but we are
being realistic about how this can be brought about. Words alone
will not bring Mr. Milosevic to his senses, and that is
unfortunate. We tried for months and it produced nothing. NATO
wants a diplomatic solution, but we have to make Mr. Milosevic
want one as well. To do this, more than words are required.
Intensified military operations are designed to put more
pressure on Belgrade. Reducing this pressure would do nothing to
bring about a solution at this time. I want to emphasize that
diplomacy has not been forgotten.
In Washington NATO allies recognize the role that Russia can
play in trying to find a diplomatic solution based on the
conditions set out by NATO and the international community. The
Minister of Foreign Affairs is going to Moscow to hold
discussions with the Russians regarding this matter. The
diplomatic route can be retaken at any time, but that decision
lies with Mr. Milosevic.
Today the European continent is confronting a serious crisis.
Kosovo is a very small place on a very large fault line, an
historic crossroads of religion and ethnicity that has often bred
hatred and violence. It is in the national interest of Canada
and its allies to prevent this region from once again sparking
wider instability, just as we have a moral imperative to not
simply watch from the sidelines as hundreds and thousands of
people are brutalized and forced from their homes.
For these reasons we must stay the course and end the violence
in Kosovo. Peace will not be achieved if we are weak willed and
lose the courage of our convictions. We must continue to hold
the tools of diplomacy in one hand and military means in the
other. The dark forces at work in Kosovo will not be turned back
in any other way, and that is important to note.
Ms. Elinor Caplan (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I rise to comment on the words
of the member who just spoke. I agree completely with him. I
think his speech was excellent.
I agree that the world cannot stand by and expect that peace
will just happen. I am a peace loving person. I think I speak
for all of my constituents in Thornhill when I say that we wish
for world peace.
However, we cannot stand by and watch terror, ethnic cleansing,
rapes and murders; the violence we have seen from that
unfortunate part of the Balkans. We cannot stand by and allow
dictators, those who would dictate to the world on their terms,
without standing firm and expressing the values in which all
Canadians believe. The world has stood by too often in the past
and not acted in a way which would make us proud. We must stand
for peace, for human security and we must do what we can, united
with our NATO allies.
1210
Those in the world who wish peace are standing together at this
time, hoping that Mr. Milosevic and those in that terror stricken
part of the world will indeed, as the member said, come to their
senses, come to the peace table and establish a plan for the
return of the refugees to Kosovo. Hopefully we will see peace in
that region, which for too many generations has been troubled
with violence and hatred.
I compliment the member on his speech. I have no question for
him. He said it all and he said it eloquently. I know we have
had many opportunities in the House to debate this issue and I
thank the House for the opportunity to add these few words.
Mr. Lynn Myers: Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for
the points she raised. We need to work together effectively to
bring about the kind of solution that is important for this part
of the world.
It is indeed a problem area and we need to stay the course in
this very important effort. It is incumbent upon the Canadian
government to do so and I know that the Canadian people are very
much with us in this matter, knowing full well that we are doing
the right thing and doing it in a manner consistent with the
values that unite us as a nation and define us as a people.
Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, there has been a lot talk in this debate about
international law. I point out to the member that there are
several instances in the very recent past where countries have
militarily done things that would appear to be in violation of
international law.
I cite, for example, Canada's seizure of the Spanish trawler,
which was a seizure that actually occurred on the high seas.
This occurred during the cod crisis. The reason for the seizure
was that the Spanish were fishing on the high seas, just off
Canada's fishing grounds, and were destroying the cod stocks.
I remember very vividly talking to a member of the diplomatic
community who said that seizing a vessel on the high seas is a
declaration of war.
We know now, in retrospect, that most of the world agrees with
that move; that countries do have to take action, even on the
high seas, if it is a matter of protecting not only their own
resources but the world's resources.
I point out also that we have another unusual circumstance in
this situation. Canada still has representation from Yugoslavia
here in Canada, even though we are in the position where we are
making military strikes on Serbia.
Is it not now a situation where we should be expecting to revise
some of the international laws and conventions that were
basically framed in the 19th century and the early 20th century
as we go into the new millennium?
Mr. Lynn Myers: Madam Speaker, it is incumbent upon us
always to look at various conventions and other articles of law
in the context of world peace. What we are doing in that part of
the world is effective and it is important that we carry on in a
manner consistent with the values of Canadians and our NATO
allies. That is the right course. Canadians expect us to do
that and that is precisely what we are doing.
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, as hon. members will know, our government has pledged to
keep the House and the people of Canada fully up to date on the
scope and nature of Canada's involvement in the humanitarian
crisis in Kosovo.
There have been regular briefings of members of parliament as
well as full discussion in question period and during debates.
1215
The House will remember that prior to commencing military action
against the government of Slobodan Milosevic, NATO had drawn up
plans to deploy an international force to Kosovo to ensure the
fair implementation of a just peace in that troubled province.
Members will also remember that in February they debated Canadian
participation in such a force. There was broad support across
party lines.
I now rise to inform the House that Canada has received a formal
request from NATO to initiate the deployment of our portion of
the peace implementation force to the former Yugoslav republic of
Macedonia. Today we intend to inform NATO that the government
agrees to this request. My colleague the Minister of National
Defence will provide the specific details and timetable for this
deployment. These troops, some 800 in total, will join 12,000
NATO troops that have already been pre-positioned in the former
Yugoslav republic of Macedonia to move into Kosovo as part of a
peace settlement.
[Translation]
I wish to assure hon. members that the purpose of this
deployment does not extend beyond what has already been debated
in this House. The sole purpose is to support the principal
objective that Canada, and all of our NATO allies, have pursued
for many years in Kosovo: a fair and just peace, one that would
allow the people of Kosovo, once again, to live in peace and
security, that ensures that the machinery of repression and
atrocities is gone, and that they can safely return to their
rightful homes.
It is a matter of great pride to me, as Prime Minister, that
members from all sides have spoken out with eloquence in favour
of these principles, and have endorsed a role for Canada in
enforcing them. As a body, we have given voice to values that
our people hold so dear, tolerance and justice.
As Canadians also know, the government, together with our
NATO allies, is also involved in seeking a diplomatic resolution
to this crisis. That is why the Minister of Foreign Affairs is
travelling this week to Moscow to meet with Russian officials
and the Secretary General of the United Nations.
I am confident that the military and diplomatic course that NATO
is pursuing will, over time, bring a just end to the crisis.
But I would also like to assure all members that, if there is a
NATO request to deploy Canadian troops in combat, the House will
be consulted before any final decision is taken.
[English]
I will use the few minutes I have left to talk about what
happened over the weekend.
As members know, we have renewed the collective agreement of
NATO. In the debate on Kosovo it was extremely clear that all 19
nations involved were unanimous in the need to carry on the air
strikes to persuade the government of Belgrade to end the
atrocities, the murdering and other things that are happening, to
withdraw its troops from Kosovo and to permit international
troops.
Last week there was a statement made that only NATO troops were
involved. We as Canadians initiated talks about having an
international group involved, not just NATO. That is what is
being debated at this time. But the five conditions have to be
met by the government of Mr. Milosevic before we stop the air
strikes.
What is very important too is that all the countries surrounding
Yugoslavia, countries like Bosnia, Albania, Croatia, supported
the actions of NATO when we met on Sunday morning. Later on we
had a meeting with the group of nations involved in the
regroupment for peace. The group involved many of the new
republics of the former USSR. They were in agreement and talked,
to my great satisfaction, about human rights, democratic rights
and so on.
It was an uneasy situation because about six of them were former
members of the politburo. Somebody made the observation that was
just to show the progress.
1220
It was very evident that the government of Milosevic is
completely politically isolated at this time. We have to
intensify the economic pressure on it so it will withdraw from
Kosovo and permit the Kosovars to go back.
There was a lot of activity. The House rightly asked us last
week to propose the involvement of the Russians. Everybody is in
agreement on that. Kofi Annan is going there this week. The
Minister of Foreign Affairs will be there. There is some
activity. There was some discussion with President Clinton on
Sunday morning. The president informed some of us privately and
after that collectively of the nature of the discussion. There
is at least discussion at this time and there is a desire by the
Russians to be part of a peaceful solution, just as the premier
of China told me when he visited Canada not long ago.
Canada is playing the best role we can. We are one of the many
countries there. We are making a peaceful solution a priority.
It is clear there will be no peaceful solution unless we persuade
Milosevic to do what was agreed upon in Rambouillet. It was
agreed upon in Rambouillet by everybody including the Russians.
The difference we had and still have with the Russians is about
the air strikes. After so many years of negotiation and
precedent in Bosnia and elsewhere we had no choice but to proceed
with air strikes. According to the briefing we had, they are
having some effect on the government of Belgrade.
There are some positive signs like the statement made by the
vice-prime minister on Sunday which was quite in contradiction
from the official position of Belgrade. We do not know whether
it is just another tactic. President Milosevic has been very
good at using all sorts of tactics to postpone and postpone and
postpone. As we have unfortunately learned, long before we had
started the bombardment, more than eight months before, he had
already started a plan of cleansing and murdering the Albanian
Kosovars.
We are working hard to find a peaceful solution. In the meantime
it is very important for everybody to know that the resolve of
the 19 nations was extremely strong and very clear.
[Translation]
When I left for Washington, I thought there would be
considerable division and that discussions would be rather
difficult, but I quickly realized that there was unanimous
agreement that what the government of Belgrade was doing had to
stop.
The important thing is that NATO took on a role in this mission,
because the political stability of all of Europe is at stake.
If this problem is not resolved, there will be repercussions in
all the other countries. I met with the presidents of
neighbouring countries, such as Bulgaria and Hungary, which are
already seriously affected by the crisis.
There are 300,000 Hungarians in the northern province of
Yugoslavia.
All the tension and the problems of many heads of government
makes quite an impression.
[English]
We are very fortunate to be far away from the problem in some
ways, but for those running a government that is very close there
is a lot of tension. It is very difficult for countries that
have people of the same faith as the Serbs. It is extremely
complicated to manage, but everybody has shown solidarity through
NATO and the neighbouring countries have clearly stated that we
have to carry on.
We all pray that it will terminate as quickly as possible. We
are doing everything we can on the diplomatic front.
1225
We have some different points of view in the House of Commons
and that is normal. But all the leaders of all the parties have
supported the action of the government and the action of the 19
countries involved in NATO. I would like to use this occasion
again to say thank you to the members for their participation and
collaboration.
Canada has been a member of NATO for a long time. I was very
pleased that the president of the United States referred to Mike
Pearson and quoted him about the purpose of NATO. NATO today is
not only to defend against invasion. We have moved for the first
time on a question of human rights and protection of the dignity
of individuals and so on, contrary to what has been done so far.
This is probably establishing a new situation that might make
sure that what we have seen and still see in Kosovo will not be
repeated elsewhere.
All that is done in the context of the stability of Europe. We
have established our commitment to stabilize Europe for 50 years.
We see the new members of NATO, the Czech republic, Hungary and
Poland there. Immediately on becoming part of NATO they are being
forced to be in a situation like that and are showing support of
the collective effort which is extremely rewarding.
I would like to say thank you to the House. I think I probably
broke the rules but if not, I am willing to take some questions.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.):
Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the Prime Minister for
making this announcement in the House. It certainly does give
members an opportunity to raise questions and comments. I have
two questions for the Prime Minister with a bit of preamble.
First of all, I think the House has agreed that the three
objectives that are being pursued in Yugoslavia are the moral
objective of stopping the ethnic cleansing; the political
objective of creating a safe home for the Kosovars in the region;
and the military objective of damaging the Serbs' military
capability to the point where they cannot practise ethnic
cleansing and come to the negotiating table. I do not think
there is much disagreement here on the overall goals.
My first question would be, could the Prime Minister perhaps
elaborate a little bit further on how the particular creation of
this peacekeeping force will enhance those goals in practical
ways?
My second question is a follow-up to the debate we had in the
House some weeks ago. I think there was general assent in the
House to Canada's role in the air strikes that NATO was carrying
on. There was a strong feeling, certainly in the House and I
think in the country, that if Canada was to expand its role in
any way, either through ground troops or perhaps even a naval
blockade, that it would be very important to have a motion
presented to the House to give the government a mandate to do
whatever it was proposing to do and to have a vote on that
motion. Canadians would then be clear on what authority was
being given to the government. In that debate questions could be
raised about how the creation of this peacekeeping force would
achieve the ultimate objectives and also precisely would Canada
have the capability to do what is being asked of it by NATO.
My second question would be, in light of the announcement that
the Prime Minister has made, will he be bringing a motion to the
House asking for a specific mandate to endorse this increase in
our role in the Balkans?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien: Madam Speaker, in answer to the
first question, it is part of the plan that was established at
the Rambouillet discussion and submitted before the conclusion
that we should send some peacekeepers there. Other countries
have sent their peacekeepers. There are 12,000 of them. We have
not. Because of distance it is more complicated for us, so we
waited until they were needed.
1230
If no peace agreement is reached they will not move in or become
involved. These are not ground troops. They are peacekeepers.
They will go in only when there is an agreement to move. They
will be on the ground and will have the proper equipment. Six or
eight helicopters will be available for reconnaissance. At this
time they are helping the people involved in the humanitarian
task in Macedonia.
We had a chance to talk with the Macedonians. Their economy has
gone to virtually zero with 40% or 45% unemployment at the
moment. They cannot take everybody. This is an extremely
complicated situated. I can guarantee the House that they are
there and ready to move. If there is a peace agreement, they
will move quickly.
I am not afraid of a vote in the House of Commons. The question
is: What is the proper thing to do? We can have debate.
However, we operate under a certain system. I am not afraid of a
vote because I know the vote will be clear. In our parliamentary
system, the government has the confidence of the House. If a
government loses the confidence of the House there are many ways
to proceed.
We have heard talk about a blockade or an embargo. We have a
ship available over there. The leader of the opposition gave me
the impression that members would now like to have a vote on the
presence of this ship that is already there. Does that mean that
every little move by the armed forces and the government will
result in a vote in the House of Commons? That is not how our
democracy and legal system operate.
The government is the executive and needs the support and
confidence of the House of Commons. This was done on previous
occasions. I am afraid for the future of the House of Commons if
this is the best way to run an operation. Great Britain felt it
had no hope, not because the government was afraid of losing with
its huge majority, but because it was keeping the principles of
the executive and legislative bodies.
If the leader of the Reform Party wants to have a vote, he can
frame a motion. The Reform Party still has two votable motions.
A debate could be held tomorrow if the Reform Party wanted one.
It can draft any resolution it wants. It can indicate what it
wants and what it does not want. It can also agree. We can hold
a vote to see who agrees and who does not agree with what we are
doing. The Reform Party has the option.
As a representative of the executive of the government, I have
to presume that I have the confidence of the House, otherwise the
system would break down. I do not want to be political, but we
have had more debates on this than ever before. I made an
agreement with all of the opposition parties to have take note
debates where everybody can speak up and express their views. I
found the late debate to be very good because we had general
agreement.
The question of having a vote on every little move is not the
system under which we operate. I did not establish the
distinction between the legislative and the executive for the fun
of it. It would be easier for me in this case because I do not
see a strong opposition. However, I have to remain very
responsible for the proper administration of the political system
of Canada.
The Speaker: Colleagues, we all appreciate that this is a
very important issue that we are dealing with. I would just
bring up a small point. With the unanimous consent of the
House, I will entertain at least one question from the leaders of
the other parties. Is it agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
1235
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I
would like some clarification from the Prime Minister on a
couple of points.
First, what exactly will be the role of the troops leaving for
Macedonia in a few hours? It is said to be peacekeeping, but I
would like to know more specifically what role they will play.
Second, around ten days ago we raised the point that the
deployment of troops in the Balkans, even for peacekeeping
purposes, in Macedonia rather than in Kosovo, might prove to be,
in the short or medium term, the first step towards a military
presence with an offensive mission in Kosovo itself.
Admittedly, Macedonia is a lot closer to Kosovo. This is a
concern.
I wonder why the Prime Minister is not holding a debate here in
the House, followed by a vote, as Germany did and as the Czech
Republic will do if ground troops are to be deployed. Prime
Minister Jospin also announced France would vote on the issue.
I do not understand the Prime Minister's attitude nor the
reasons for it. We are not asking to vote on every single
military maneuver that might take place, on every little move.
This is not what we are asking for. Rather we are questioning
the very principle of deploying ground troops.
Moreover I am told the House must follow parliamentary
procedure; it just happens that in this House votes take place
every day after debate, of course. We hold a debate and then we
vote on a variety of issues much less important than the
deployment of troops, be it for peacekeeping or an offensive
military operation. It seems to me it would be in keeping with
the House's responsibilities to hold a debate, followed by a
vote, as we do on so many other issues.
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien: Mr. Speaker, I thought I had explained
it earlier, but I will be glad to explain it again. In preparing
for an agreement with Belgrade, it was anticipated that troops
would be involved. We hope an agreement can be reached at the
earliest opportunity.
We were asked to send troops so as to be ready. The troops that
are currently in Macedonia help greatly with the refugees. This
is one of the reasons we were asked to be there. We have
helicopters that may eventually fly over Kosovo, but right now
they can be used to help refugees. The troops will not go to
Kosovo until there is an agreement. If they must go, I said I
would come back to the House of Commons with this.
As for the other issues, it goes without saying that votes are
held every day. But I explained that, with an issue such as this
one, the parliamentary system is based on the confidence that
the House of Commons has in the government. In a situation like
this one, we assume, since we form the government, that we have
the authority to act until we lose that confidence.
I also said that we now have a mechanism that did not exist in
the past. Nothing prevents opposition parties from asking
questions during an opposition day. It is not the government's
responsibility to do that. We will examine any motion to that
effect and vote on it. However, we assume that we have the
confidence of the parties in the House. The Bloc Quebecois had
an opportunity a few days ago. It could have asked a very clear
question, but instead it asked an ambiguous question.
The day after the debate in the House, the Reform Party asked a
strange question on a motion that had nothing to do with the
crisis in Kosovo, but referred to a committee holding
consultations in western Canada. The opposition is not
interested in using the opportunities that it has.
At some point, the issue of confidence will be dealt with
specifically in a motion. On June 9, a vote will be held in the
House of Commons on supply for the Department of National
Defence. The House can vote against this. That is one way of
going about it. The opposition cannot have it both ways. If it
does not want us to do this, it should reject the defence budget,
then we will not be able to go. This would then become a vote of
confidence.
1240
[English]
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I first
want to say how very much we welcome the decision of the Prime
Minister to enter this important debate today. It has been very
much in the spirit that we intended in introducing the NDP
opposition motion today that we have this forum to discuss
further what we are going to do to intensify and accelerate our
commitment, as a nation, to find a speedy, peaceful, diplomatic
solution to the Kosovo crisis.
I want to say again, what we have expressed publicly and on the
record, that we think having an opportunity to vote is an
important issue. I have some difficulty in understanding where
the Prime Minister is coming from because when we were in the
gulf war we had six votes in the House and no one saw that as an
erosion of the government's confidence or ability to do its job.
My question today does not focus on any votes around any
possible escalation of military effort. It is our urgent hope
that the point that we have now reached means that we will not be
talking about escalating the military effort but rather we will
be focusing on escalating the diplomatic effort.
The Prime Minister's statement today about the deployment of
troops for peaceful purposes only is very much in the spirit of
the position we have set out in our motion. We will of course be
very vigilant in making sure that we are only talking about
peaceful deployment.
My question focuses on the motion that we put before the House
because that is the debate we are having. In relation to the
Prime Minister's assertion about the critical importance of
Russia's participation in advancing a peaceful solution, the
Prime Minister knows that Russia has said that under no
circumstances will its participation be possible if NATO proceeds
with an oil embargo and the possibility of a naval blockade.
In that spirit, will the Prime Minister assure Canadians today
that he, on behalf of Canada, and the foreign affairs minister
and the defence minister, will stake out clear, unequivocal
opposition to any such course of action?
We have a golden opportunity here to advance peace. We have an
opportunity with the foreign affairs minister going to Moscow in
what I think is increasingly an opening up of diplomatic
opportunity to say that we will provide leadership in ensuring
that Russia's position on this issue is respected and that we
will not do anything to jeopardize the possibility of being able
to continue to involve Russia in advancing a speedy, peaceful,
diplomatic solution to this situation.
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien: Mr. Speaker, it is not a
blockade. On Sunday I said that we would do nothing to provoke
the Russians. The embargo is done. A lot of people can help to
ensure that economic isolation is made clear to the government of
Milosevic. As I said before, what is the use in bombarding the
refineries when gasoline will still come in by ship from the
south to replenish what was lost? We cannot have it both ways.
On the diplomatic front, when we started collectively to talk
about only NATO troops there, Canada was the first to say it
should be enlarged. The embargo will be a collective decision.
It will not be a blockade. We are not planning to use military
ships to sink Russian tankers. We are only talking about an
embargo.
1245
The Russians have an interest in finishing it too. They are
opposed to the air strikes but they are in favour of Rambouillet.
There is no doubt about it. We feel very strongly that we have
to carry on. It is not the time to stop.
I said earlier that it is known Milosevic has been extremely
skilful at quasi-agreeing to something and then delaying and
delaying while doing his job. Now the collective result is to do
it. The weakening of his infrastructure is huge and it will
intensify. He is completely politically isolated.
I read, and probably members read it too, that there was hope in
Belgrade with the news that Russian planes would come to rescue
them. They are not there and they will not be there. The
Russians like us would like to have a resolution of the conflict
but the five conditions have to be met.
If NATO is not there, the Kosovars will not want to go back. It
is very nice to say that there will be no more bombardment, but
they will think twice before going back to a place that has been
devastated. Their homes have been burned by the Serbs and their
cities have been destroyed. They are now in Albania. When we
ask them to go back home they will want to go back under a
certain security.
There is another element. We have to stop the conflict. A
group in Kosovo is using arms today to try to make Kosovo
independent. This is another side of the problem which has to be
kept in mind. We want peacekeepers there so that the people of
Kosovo can go home, live a normal life and have the freedoms we
are all fighting for.
[Translation]
Mr. André Bachand (Richmond—Arthabaska, PC): Mr. Speaker, like
many of my colleagues, I wish to thank the Prime Minister for
taking the time to come and speak to the House. We are very
grateful.
Today, the Prime Minister has announced that Canada will be
sending peacekeeping troops, what we used to call blue berets,
to Macedonia. They will not be wearing blue berets, because the
operation will be NATO-led.
I would like to know which countries have asked for this,
because the Prime Minister said it was NATO that had called for
troops, not the UNHCR.
Could the Prime Minister tell us what contribution other
countries are making? By sending troops at this stage, is the
Prime Minister saying that hostilities will soon be over? What
is the rationale for sending peacekeeping troops, at NATO's
request, to Macedonia right now? If it is to help refugees, the
request should perhaps have come to us from the UNHCR.
Now, on the topic of the naval blockade, we are told that this
is neither a blockade nor an embargo, but simply a check of what
is going into Yugoslavia. Would the Prime Minister comment on
what the newspapers were saying this morning, that the Minister
of National Defence and a German general said that there is no
question of using force to stop ships travelling to Yugoslavia
through Montenegro, nor is there any question of using force to
stop the entry of Russian oil?
My last question is this. Is the Prime Minister ruling out a
peacekeeping force other than NATO's in Kosovo, perhaps under
the UN, with the Russians?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien: Mr. Speaker, I just explained the
role. The British, the French, the Italians and the Americans
are already there, under the NATO umbrella.
They sent troops in the context of the preparations for the
Rambouillet agreement, which did not happen. We were asked to
do the same. There have been discussions and now we have
received an official request, but it came from NATO.
1250
Regarding the embargo, we have asked the military to prepare a
plan. At present, the details are unknown. As I explained,
this is an embargo, which means that weapons will not be used to
set up a blockade.
As for the details on how this will work, at this point we do
not know what types all the vessels deployed will be exactly.
Some are completely above-board. It must also be kept in mind
that the democratically elected government of Montenegro must
not be weakened any more than necessary. Montenegro is a fairly
independent province of Yugoslavia, and things between it and
the government in Belgrade are rather tense.
On the other hand, the focus must not be on the south at the
expense of our actions in northern Kosovo and in the Belgrade
region.
It is our hope that the peace force sent to Kosovo will be a UN
force. That is what we want. I do not know if that will be
possible, but more than NATO is needed, and we have already said
so in this House, last week.
Although the word from Brussels was that only NATO troops should
be involved, personally, I remain convinced that the Russians
and Ukrainians are needed in order to make the foreign presence
in Yugoslavia more acceptable.
I have had an opportunity to speak to President Kuchma. Not
many have contacts with the government in Belgrade, but he has
sent his Minister of Defence and Minister of Foreign Affairs to
Belgrade.
He has given me his view of the situation, and among the points
he raised, I agreed with him that countries other than NATO
countries ought to be involved in any future peace force.
[English]
Mr. Jim Hart (Okanagan—Coquihalla, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
will be sharing my time with the member for Edmonton East.
Before I get into my comments regarding the motion before us
today, I would like to comment on what we have heard this
afternoon from the Prime Minister. I appreciate his being in the
House to present this information and his giving Canadians and
members a brief lecture on politics 101 and the executive
authority of the government in the House of Commons.
I remind the Prime Minister and the executive branch of
government that along with their executive decision making power
comes something called executive responsibility. The opposition
will be holding the government accountable for every action it
takes which seems to be inappropriate to the official opposition
and to the people of Canada.
With respect to that I have great concerns over the types of
troops we have heard are being deployed to the Balkans. The
Prime Minister has given us very few details about those troops.
He has given us a number of 800 troops, but he has said very
little about their role and their missions of operation. He has
said very little about all of these things. I get the assurance
from the defence minister that he will also speak to these
issues.
My point is that the House agrees executive decision making is
in the mandate of the Government of Canada as is executive
responsibility. We will do everything to make sure the proper
troops are deployed and the capabilities are there. We all know
the government has reduced military capability over the last five
years since it came into power. It will be held to account for
all those things. The auditor general has pointed it out. The
chief of the defence staff has also pointed out the capability
deficit we have now after six years of Liberal dominance in the
country.
1255
However, I digress. I rose this afternoon on behalf of the
people of Okanagan—Coquihalla to speak to the opposition motion:
That this House calls on the government to intensify and
accelerate efforts to find a diplomatic solution to the crisis in
Kosovo through the involvement of Russia and the United Nations,
and to urge NATO not to take actions that expand the conflict and
stand in the way of a diplomatic solution.
I congratulate members of the Canadian Armed Forces,
particularly those in the air force who have done a superb job in
executing the sorties and missions they have been given over the
last 35 days. All Canadians should take time to thank them for
that, and to pray for their safe and speedy return to Canada. All
of us want to see a diplomatic solution to this situation.
Therein lies the problem with the motion. In the way it was
written it makes it sound as though we have not been concerned
about a diplomatic solution. In the newspapers I read on a daily
basis and in the media reports I see, the diplomatic flurry of
activity surrounding Kofi Annan, the ministers from Russia, our
Minister of Foreign Affairs and other interested parties has
definitely increased. Canada must show its absolute resolve not
to fray away from its NATO allies in this terrible tragedy
happening in Kosovo.
The motion lays out some assumptions that the Russians and the
UN have been kept out of the negotiations. I feel that is
totally false. I would not even want to be sending that message.
That is why I cannot support the motion before the House today.
It is also important to note that the UN has been in the Balkans
for most of this decade, trying to resolve various territorial
and ethnic disputes. There is increased diplomatic activity
going on right now, but there has been such activity for the last
10 years. We have tried.
If members of the NDP think this is some whim NATO has embarked
upon for no good reason, they are sadly mistaken. We have to
remember Canada's involvement. We have a stake in it as well.
Eleven of our peacekeepers have died through peacekeeping
operations in the Balkans. I do not say that lightly. I am
quite concerned about that. Do we have a stake in it? Of course
we do, because those people did not die in vain.
NATO has taken military initiative due to the failure of an
agreement in the UN to take action against Serb ethnic cleansing
in Kosovo. Russia and China would oppose UN sanctioned action in
the security council. We know that full well. Kofi Annan has
even identified that.
It is ridiculous to say that Russia has been excluded. Russia
is important. Every media report, everything we see, shows that
all the stakeholders are trying to get Russia involved. Russia
is seen as an important mediator to end this conflict.
I will remind members of the House and maybe my colleagues in
the New Democratic Party of the goals. I am not condemning the
NDP for bringing the motion forward. They drafted the motion in
the spirit of wanting to find a solution, but I do not think
there has been a lot of thought into what they are saying here.
First, one of NATO's goals is to end ethnic cleansing. Second
is the withdrawal of Serb forces. Third, refugees must be
allowed to return to their homes in Kosovo. Fourth, NATO
peacekeepers must be allowed to enter Kosovo. Fifth is a
political solution. That is the fifth link in the NATO agreement
to which the 19 member states have agreed.
We are already striking Yugoslavia with our NATO air forces to
reduce the ability of the Yugoslavian military and paramilitary
to commit aggression.
This is very, very important and it is working. The evidence
shows that this tactic is working.
1300
The comments made yesterday by the deputy prime minister of
Yugoslavia show that the political decision making powers are
fraying on their side. We cannot allow them to fray on our side.
NATO must maintain its resolve to continue the campaign until the
Yugoslavian leadership accepts a negotiated settlement.
With this type of motion I would have to ask what kind of
message are we trying to send to Mr. Milosevic? He would love
this motion, because this motion shows cracks in NATO's resolve.
I just do not think that is appropriate at this juncture.
We have successful air operations continuing. We are reducing
the Yugoslavian army capability. That is very important and
there are signs that a political solution may be found.
I want to also remind people that on April 12 the Leader of the
Opposition laid out some principal objectives in supporting the
government and NATO. The first was that it attains the moral
objective of halting ethnic cleansing. Second was that we
achieve the political objective of creating safe homes for
Kosovars and stabilize the region through negotiations. Third
was that we pursue the military objective of damaging the
military capabilities of Yugoslavia to reduce its capacity to
practise ethnic cleansing and bring the Yugoslavian government to
the negotiating table.
When I was home on the weekend I met up with a World War II
veteran and I had a conversation with him. His name is
Lieutenant Colonel Harry Kwarton. I said to Harry, “Sir, what do
you think of what is going on right now?” He said to me, “At
the end of the second world war we told the world that we would
never let this happen again, and you bet we are doing the right
thing by being there and supporting this”. I think we are on
the right track.
I want to congratulate our troops and again remind the
government that I for one will be holding it responsible for its
executive decision making. It had better make sure that the
capabilities it commits are the proper ones and we have the
ability to do the job.
Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton East, Ref.): Madam Speaker,
once again I am pleased to stand in the House on behalf of the
constituents of Edmonton East and contribute to a very important
debate.
Canada has a proud war history, but our role in this conflict is
very different from our triumphs in Europe earlier this century.
While I support the troops no matter where in the world they are
sent, I too share some reservations with respect to our role and
long term plan, if there is one.
The official opposition is prepared to support our involvement
under the following guidelines with respect to the war in
Yugoslavia. We must obtain the moral objective and halt the
ethnic cleansing that has been perpetrated by the Yugoslav
government. We need to achieve the political objective of
creating a safe home for Kosovars by stabilizing relations
between the federal republic of Yugoslavia and its neighbours
through peaceful negotiations. We will pursue the military
objectives of damaging the offensive military capability of the
Yugoslav government and reduce its capacity to practise ethnic
cleansing.
No country in history has ever been conventionally bombed into
total submission and likely never will. It is clearly evident
even to most armchair generals that a more comprehensive plan is
required. The largest participant in this mission, the United
States, knows all too well that a 20th century ground war would
be both ugly and deadly.
Military force is only a tool with which to achieve our
objectives. The Reform Party has noted that it is prepared to
support military force and the commitment of Canadian forces only
if our government demonstrates to this House that new commitments
from Canada are needed to halt ethnic cleansing and to provide
for a safe return of Kosovar refugees and that the government
demonstrates to the House that all Canadian duties fall within
Canada's existing military capabilities and guidelines.
1305
Until now the Liberal government has not been open with
parliament and the Canadian people. The three take note debates
on the crisis have been little more than a public relations
token. Canada's elected government has really had no say at all.
Most recently this issue came up with regard to ground troop
deployment. Any naval blockade is also an escalation in this
conflict and in my view deserves the attention that ground troops
are due too.
The last debate was on April 12 and took place two weeks after
Canadians were already involved in the conflict. The government
informed parliament of Canada's involvement in the bombings when
Canadian planes were in the air. Most important, there has never
been any vote in parliament on Canada's involvement in the war.
Parliament has played no role in setting the parameters for
involvement once again if we end up enforcing a NATO naval
blockade. We must not fool ourselves into thinking that stopping
ships on the high seas will not escalate this crisis. We must
have clearly understood rules of engagement before we embark on
any escalation in or around Kosovo.
The government must change its approach and keep parliament
fully informed and involved. Canadians call on the government to
give parliament a role in setting the parameters and conditions
for continued or additional Canadian military participation.
The Reform Party has supported the use of air power as a means
to stop Serb ethnic cleansing activities in Kosovo and to force
Mr. Milosevic to the negotiating table. The air campaign has
been presented as the best alternative. It would not have been
acceptable or morally right to sit idly by and watch fellow
humans massacred and driven from their homes. It would have
handed the president a victory and fed his appetite for greater
conquests. On their own, air strikes might not exert the
necessary pressure to encourage Serb disengagement.
The human race has witnessed acts of genocide throughout its
history. Genocide is not solely the horrendous byproduct of
certain wars. Incidents of genocide are not war related at all.
Genocide is also a failure of humanity, the dark side of a
civilization run amok. We must admit that Kosovo unchecked could
be just this, death and destruction of homes and whole families
by dictate of a man gone mad.
It is important for groups that have been decimated by genocidal
acts that the world remember the particular atrocities in order
to learn and understand what happened. Groups affected by
genocidal acts want only to be remembered. The genocides of
world history cannot be distinguished on the basis of size and
scope. It is commonly understood that our history has witnessed
one holocaust and many attempted genocides. In my view genocide
should be regarded more as a failure of civilization than a
product of war, whether it be the Ukrainian famine, the Cambodian
killing fields, the Holocaust, or now reportedly Kosovo. In my
view Canada should institutionalize remembrance through the
construction of a stand alone world genocide museum.
NATO's collective strategy is seemingly starting to have an
effect. We ought to give it more time to work. However, as the
situation on the ground in Kosovo changes and new commitments are
considered, the government must demonstrate to this House that
any such commitments still fulfil the primary objective of
stopping and reversing ethnic cleansing and Milosevic's genocidal
tendencies.
Our pilots and troops are to be congratulated for the fine
effort they have been making. They have been doing their best to
help reverse this tide of inhumanity. For that we should be
proud.
The families of ground force peacekeepers in past missions
worried daily. Children had no idea of what horrors their
parents had witnessed and had little understanding when their
parents returned home permanently different from when they had
left. Post-traumatic disorders are serious, debilitating and
devastating to families who seek to pick up from where they left
off months earlier.
Committing Canada's ground force troops will undoubtedly mean
facing these challenges and trials again.
Are we learning from past experiences? We must be extremely
careful in planning our troop deployment.
1310
A few weeks ago retired Major General Lewis MacKenzie stated in
the Ottawa Citizen:
—we are not in a position to participate in any prolonged ground
offensive in Kosovo.... During the past 20 years, successive
governments, both Liberals and Tories, have used Canada's modest
military as a cash cow which has resulted in a dramatic reduction
of its operational capability.
These comments were made by one of Canada's most respected
military leaders. General MacKenzie is saying that the ability
of the Canadian forces to sustain long term ground operations,
especially those far from home, has been sharply eroded by the
government.
Between 1993 and 2000 there will have been $9 billion in defence
cuts. About 18,000 troops have been cut. Morale is at rock
bottom, especially when money is being spent on sex change
operations and combat bras. Our soldiers are lining up at food
banks and wearing hand me down battle uniforms.
I do not see the distinction between the escalation by land or
by sea. Whether it is a blockade or an embargo, an escalation is
just that and has inherent dangers and concerns. Putting our
frigates on front line service as floating targets is daunting
enough. To do so without clear objectives, plans of action and
with poorly understood engagement rules in my mind is reckless.
We should clearly define the role of our naval contribution with
every bit of seriousness as that we would with ground troops. The
government must allow the military leadership of the Canadian
forces to be more honest and forthcoming. Our military command
must be allowed to brief all members of our involvement. We
understand that sensitivity and confidentiality are very
important in military planning and we would be pleased to have
the briefings in camera. For the sake of our troops' safety we
must remember that the need to know must be appropriately
balanced through careful disclosure and full public debate.
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to speak to this motion
today.
Let me say clearly at the outset that we in Canada, we in the
government, seek peace. As always we prefer to seek peace
through peaceful means.
[Translation]
In its quest for peace and security, Canada has always favoured
diplomacy.
[English]
Our diplomatic heritage has become a tradition that we further
at all opportunities. It is something that we are justifiably
proud of.
But even our elder statesman of diplomacy, the former Prime
Minister Lester Pearson, the father of peacekeeping, understood
that military force had a necessary role in achieving peace and
security. Why? Because sometimes words and threats are not
enough. Negotiations require two parties at the table together
believing in what their words and promises can achieve.
We have been and are willing to sit at that table. At this
point President Milosevic is not. Let me remind the House of Mr.
Milosevic's appalling track record when it comes to willingness
to negotiate.
In March 1998 the United Nations passed resolution 1160 calling
on all parties to reach a peaceful settlement. This was followed
by UN resolution 1199 in September. It demanded that both sides
cease hostilities and improve the rapidly deteriorating
humanitarian situation in the region. In October 1998, backed by
the threat of NATO air power, an agreement was reached that
established a ceasefire and allowed for an observer mission led
by the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe to
verify compliance. The agreement also called for strict limits
on the deployment of the Yugoslav security forces.
Regrettably, and true to form as we have seen over many years,
Mr. Milosevic did not keep his word.
Yugoslav forces violated the ceasefire, responded
disproportionately to the actions of the Kosovo Liberation Army
and carried out a campaign against civilians in clear violation
of international humanitarian law.
1315
Despite this gross misconduct, we still gave negotiations
another chance. Talks quickly began in Rambouillet, France.
These negotiations sought a peaceful solution by balancing the
interests and the demands of the parties. The interim agreement
we reached provided for a high degree of autonomy for Kosovo, but
as part of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. In the end the
Kosovars agreed. They exercised courage and they signed the
agreement. Mr. Milosevic did not. Eleventh hour efforts by U.S.
envoy Richard Holbrooke proved fruitless.
By March 24 we realized that the diplomatic track to that point
in time had run its course. Our patience and our commitment to
leave no diplomatic stone unturned was once again rewarded by Mr.
Milosevic's unwillingness to honour the agreements that he had
made or to seek a peaceful resolution.
I have just described the long history of our diplomatic efforts
to stand against Milosevic's tyranny. This crisis represents a
fundamental challenge to the values of democracy, human rights
and the rule of law. These are values which Canadians have
defended in words, but also in deeds in the first and the second
world wars, in Korea and, more recently, in the gulf war. They
are also values that NATO has upheld since its inception some 50
years ago.
Our military actions are justified. We have been forced to use
the military tool because the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia has
repeatedly violated United Nations Security Council resolutions.
It has spurned attempts to forge a negotiated peace, with
catastrophic results to the people of Kosovo. The unrestrained
assault by the Yugoslav military police and paramilitary forces
on Kosovar civilians has created a massive humanitarian
catastrophe and threatens to destabilize the surrounding region.
These have been extreme, calculated and criminal policies. They
cannot be defended on any ground.
Let me be clear. The military action against the Federal
Republic of Yugoslavia supports the political aims of the
international community. Our objective is to foster a return to
a peaceful multi-ethnic and democratic Kosovo in which all of its
people can live in security and enjoy universal human rights and
freedoms on an equal basis. Canada and its allies are united in
this objective.
It is an objective that is supported by the UN Secretary General
and the European Union, and by Russia. Even Russian efforts to
seek a negotiated settlement were met with half-hearted
concessions and a flagrant disregard for the need to respect
basic human rights and international law. However, the alliance
shares a common interest with Russia in reaching a political
solution to the crisis in Kosovo and will work constructively
with Russia to this end wherever possible.
We know of the forthcoming mission of my colleague, the Minister
of Foreign Affairs, and we wish him well in his efforts to help
bring that about.
The international community is united in its ultimate preference
for a negotiated settlement in this crisis.
Before I finish I would like to provide some additional
information on the latest developments. As the Prime Minister
indicated just a few moments ago, Canada has now received a
formal request from NATO to deploy to the former Yugoslav
Republic of Macedonia the military contingent we had identified
some months ago as our contribution to the international peace
implementation process in Kosovo. We have agreed to this
request.
A Canadian peacekeeping force in the former Yugoslav Republic of
Macedonia will consist of up to 800 people and will be equipped
with about 280 vehicles and eight Griffon helicopters. Its main
components will be a reconnaissance squadron, which will be
capable of conducting surveillance and security operations in
Kosovo. In fact, they will be using some of the latest
equipment, such as the Coyote.
The helicopter unit which I mentioned will carry out airborne
surveillance, transport and medical evacuation missions. Also
added to this team of about 600 people will be 200 combat
engineers.
1320
Our force will operate as part of a British armoured brigade
within the NATO led allied rapid reaction core. That is why we
are going to Macedonia. That is where the British brigade is
located. These troops and these functions complement and
supplement those which the British will be providing. We
currently work with them in SFOR in Bosnia and it will be a
similar kind of arrangement in Macedonia. The British already
have troops in the region and they are counting on us to be there
with them. The secretary of defence for the U.K. specifically
said that to me in a meeting held last week.
It will take our force up to 60 days, we hope a little less, to
reach the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and become
operationally ready. This period is necessary to assemble the
required military equipment and logistical supplies, move them by
rail to Montreal and then by ship to Europe.
As the Prime Minister pointed out, our Canadian forces
contingent will be part of an international peace implementation
force. In other words, they will be peacekeepers. Although a
peace settlement has not yet been reached, deploying our people
now will serve two important purposes. First, it will allow our
force to integrate fully with the British brigade and to train
with them so that they can respond rapidly and effectively when a
settlement is reached. Second, our troops will be able to
provide immediate support to ongoing humanitarian operations in
the region until and after a peace settlement is reached.
With our military campaign we are achieving what we set out to
do. The cost of standing idly by is being measured in the lives
of our fellow human beings. We have seen so far a callous and
ominous disregard for human security. Canada always prefers a
diplomatic solution. Our tradition has always been to appeal to
the powers of reason and to try to achieve peace without the use
of force or even the threat of it.
Although we have gained a deserved reputation as a peacekeeper,
no one should ever forget that we have never and will never shy
away from the stronger means if that is what is necessary to
pursue peace and human rights.
[Translation]
Mr. René Laurin (Joliette, BQ): Madam Speaker, the hon.
minister mentioned troops in Macedonia, saying that they will be
equipped with Griffon helicopters, which will conduct security
operations in Kosovo.
I would like him to elaborate on this because we were under the
impression, after listening to the Prime Minister's statements,
that our troops would be stationed in Macedonia only. There was
no mention of Kosovo for the time being, but the minister said
there will be security operations in Kosovo.
Does this mean there will be forays into Kosovo? I would like
the Minister of National Defence to elaborate on this.
[English]
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton: Madam Speaker, I neglected to
mention at the beginning of my speech that I will be splitting my
time with the member for Lac-Saint-Louis.
In response to the question, we are pre-deploying our troops to
FYROM, the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, for eventual
movement into Kosovo as part of a peacekeeping mission when a
ceasefire and a peace settlement has been reached. That has
always been the plan. That was what was talked about in terms of
the Rambouillet agreement, that we would have an international
military presence in Kosovo to ensure the peace and security of
Kosovo and for the Kosovars to be able to live in peace and
security.
We are taking them from Canada to the region and putting them
adjacent to Kosovo, in Macedonia, so that when the time comes for
a peacekeeping mission to go into Kosovo they will be there
together with numerous other countries. It is not just the
British, it is the French, the Italians and numerous others.
There are 12,000 of them in Macedonia, but there are also a
number of troops in Albania, troops that will be part of a
peacekeeping force that will go in when agreement is reached.
1325
Mr. Gordon Earle: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I wonder if you would seek the unanimous consent of the
House to extend the time for questions to be put to the minister
by about five minutes.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): The hon. member is
asking the House for unanimous consent to extend the period by
five minutes. Is there consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Ref.): Madam Speaker, we
have now had the announcement today that the troops are moving
closer and closer.
We have seen the terrible destruction of innocent people in
Kosovo. They have been raped and murdered, their houses burned
and their livelihoods destroyed. The hearts of all Canadians go
out to them.
Let us look at what has been happening. NATO leaders huffed and
puffed and then they started to bomb. In the meantime, Milosevic
has continued his ethnic cleansing and the situation has
worsened. We now have the announcement that troops are moving
next door into Macedonia. There is this creeping effect that
seems to be dragging us more and more into this morass each and
every day.
I wonder what is going to be left of the Kosovars and Kosovo by
the time we get around to pushing Milosevic out of that region so
that these people can live peacefully. What kind of timetable
does the minister have? It seems to me that by the time this
thing drags out at the speed that NATO is moving there will be
nothing left to save.
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the
concern expressed by the hon. member. We have that concern as
well. We are anxious that this matter be brought to an end as
quickly as it possibly can, using both military and diplomatic
means. We want to see a solution to this matter as quickly as
possible.
The air campaign is being intensified. Additional aircraft are
going into the area. The Apache helicopters will soon be
deployed. As the weather gets better more sorties will be
carried out.
It is not that we want to do this. We would rather have
Milosevic come to the table.
We put in place last fall this air operation plan. We then
spent every bit of time between then and March 24 trying to find
a diplomatic resolution to the matter. Still we must seek every
opportunity to find that diplomatic resolution.
However, so far Mr. Milosevic has not yielded to what the
international community asks of him, to pull back his troops and
to let the Kosovars return to their homes. Yes, they are going
to have to rebuild their homes. A lot of them have been burned
out. They are going to need help in doing that. In fact the
entire region is going to need help in reconstructing itself and
moving forward economically. A lot of reconstruction work will
have to be done.
So far Mr. Milosevic has not yielded. He ignores the
international community. He goes on with his ethnic cleansing
and the butchering of the people of Kosovo. We cannot stand by
idly. We have done everything we can to this point in terms of
diplomacy. We will continue to do things in terms of diplomacy,
but meanwhile the air campaign will intensify until the Yugoslav
government comes to the table and agrees to the terms. Then we
can put in place a peacekeeping force, which will include 800
Canadians, to make sure that the Kosovars can return to their
homes in peace and security.
Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, PC): Madam Speaker,
I tend to agree with the minister this time. It does not always
happen, but I think we are making the right move this time in
moving in our peacekeepers. In fact, we said before that they
probably should be there so they have a better chance to
pre-train, as the minister said, and become a little more
inter-operable with their British counterparts, with whom they
will be working in the future.
What is the training background of the troops we are planning to
send? Has it been strictly in peacekeeping? Will they be
prepared to defend the borders, for instance, if there are
incursions?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the
comments and the support of the hon. member for
Compton—Stanstead. I am pleased to receive particularly his
remark that this is the right move to make.
1330
With respect to the training they have received, all our troops
that go overseas or to any mission receive standard training of
combat capability. Part of the 1994 defence white paper was to
have multipurpose combat capable troops. They also receive
specific training relevant to the mission and relevant to
peacekeeping.
Peacekeeping nowadays, as we have seen in Bosnia and in other
areas, requires our troops to be able to defend themselves
because of some very difficult circumstances. The Medak pocket
was a great example of that in Bosnia a number of years ago. They
have to be combat capable because peacekeeping can be dangerous
at times. Over 100 Canadians in the years that we have been
involved in peacekeeping have lost their lives in peacekeeping
missions.
They have received standard combat capable training, specific
training relevant to peacekeeping and specific training relevant
to this mission. They will continue to get training while they
are in Macedonia with the British brigade because we want the
units to work well together. Our Canadians will be
self-sustaining. They will be a sustainable force but they will
work with the British and will get further training.
With respect to the borders, each of those countries has
responsibility for their borders. We will also be there helping
out in terms of the refugee problem wherever we can be of help.
We would certainly want to make sure the refugees are protected,
so there may be occasions when we could be involved. We hope
that will not be the case in terms of that kind of defence. The
essential responsibility for the borders belongs to each of the
surrounding countries.
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Madam Speaker, my
question will be very brief. With respect to the 800 troops that
will be deployed, the minister mentioned combat capable. Does
this mean these troops will be armed? Second, where will these
troops be coming from, which particular area of Canada, which
base?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton: Madam Speaker, yes, they will be
armed just as they are armed in Bosnia, as they are armed in most
other theatres of peacekeeping operation. They will be armed and
able to defend themselves if that becomes necessary.
They will be deployed out of Edmonton, Alberta. As I indicated
earlier there will be some 280 vehicles. Those vehicles will
start to move toward Montreal. They will then be put on a ship
and sent to Europe and then taken from there into the former
Yugoslav republic of Macedonia.
Mr. Leon E. Benoit: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. Because of the extra sense of urgency, the even added
sense of urgency that has come about as a result of the Prime
Minister's statement, I seek unanimous consent of the House to
extend the question and comment period by five minutes.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): Is there unanimous
consent to extend the question and comment period by five
minutes?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): Madam Speaker, I
certainly am very pleased and thank the House for the unanimous
consent to extend the question and comment period. This is an
extremely sensitive situation and an extremely important issue of
debate.
The Prime Minister expressed support for Canadians accelerating
the conflict in the Balkans in two ways: first by the
possibility of putting an embargo in place and second by sending
Canadian troops to the area.
My question is for the Minister of National Defence. Are we in
fact at war now? Has the government now decided that Canada is
at war and, if not, should the decision of whether Canada goes to
war be made by the executive branch of government or by
parliament, by all members of the House?
The second question has to do with the chief of defence staff.
We are sending 800 troops to the area. They are going as
peacekeepers. The minister said that. However, with the
acceleration of the conflict, it is quite possible that these
troops could be involved in full combat before this situation is
over.
1335
Does the minister have assurance from the chief of defence
staff, the person who would make decisions about the capability
of our troops and whether they are properly equipped, that if it
becomes a full combat situation Canadian troops can in fact meet
the obligations that NATO will place on them?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton: Madam Speaker, with respect to
the question of whether or not this is called a war, I think most
people call it that. However there are also legal implications
of using that term. That term has not been used in the case of
this conflict by either side. In fact it was not officially used
in Korea. Korea was called a war by everybody but that was not
part of the official terminology. Neither was it in the gulf.
People will call things as they see them, but there is no change
in the status as a result of what has been announced today.
I would beg to differ that the actions we have taken today are
accelerating the conflict. We are sending troops over to be part
of a peacekeeping mission. That has been made quite clear. It
has also been made clear that if they change to doing anything
else, anything that involves a heavier kind of conflict or less
permissive kind of atmosphere going in on the ground into Kosovo,
that matter would come back for debate in parliament and would
require a decision of the government as well. That commitment
sticks. These people are only going over there for that
business. That hardly accelerates the conflict. They are just
going over as peacekeepers.
In terms of what they are capable of doing, they are capable of
being involved in a greater combat situation than we would hope
peacekeeping would involve because they are trained as combat
capable troops.
There can be speculation on the different kinds of readiness
they would require, depending upon where we end up in terms of
going into Kosovo, but our military planners are looking at a
number of options. That is as far as it goes because the
commitment at this point in time is to continue with and
intensify the air campaign and to have the 800 troops as part of
a peacekeeping force that would go into Kosovo when a ceasefire
peace agreement has been reached.
[Translation]
Mr. René Laurin: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I
thought there was unanimous consent to give the member five more
minutes. He already has had five additional minutes.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Thibeault): The five minutes have
expired.
Mr. Clifford Lincoln (Lac-Saint-Louis, Lib.): Madam Speaker, there
are times in politics which go beyond partisanship; I believe
the motion before us today is one of those.
I believe I am speaking for all of us here, and certainly for
all Canadians, when I say that our priority is to reach a
lasting and peaceful solution as soon as possible.
When I spoke last week about Kosovo, as did many of my
colleagues, I mentioned that a peaceful solution would be more
likely if the Russian government were involved on a more
proactive basis. The Prime Minister also pointed this out on
several occasions.
This is why I really congratulate the Minister of Foreign
Affairs, who is soon to leave for Moscow to urge the Russian
government to participate proactively in the quest for a
solution involving the United Nations.
The talks the minister is about to embark on with Russia,
together with certain NATO colleagues and the UN secretary
general, could open the door to the possibility of a real and
lasting solution. I believe this is the way to go in this
conflict.
1340
[English]
In the meantime we must do whatever we can, together with the UN
community, to avoid an escalation of the conflict including a
naval blockade, which will make it all that more difficult to
enlist Russian co-operation. We must resist at all cost the
temptation placed in our way by the British, among others, to
escalate the NATO intervention toward an eventual ground war. I
rejoice in this connection. At a summit meeting in Washington
last week NATO leaders, including our Prime Minister, rejected
the use of ground forces for military purposes.
I think, however, we all agree that Canada should play a leading
role in the peacekeeping effort. In this sense I welcome the
intervention of the Prime Minister and the Minister of National
Defence today that we will get ready with our peacekeeping forces
to participate actively in that effort.
More than ever now we must put our partisan differences aside
and support wholeheartedly the initiative of the foreign minister
and his colleagues in the search for prompt diplomatic solutions
which might include economic and other sanctions through the
United Nations, a solution which will achieve the return home of
the Kosovars so savagely cast away from their rightful place and
home in Kosovo.
Any solution should guarantee a lasting peace, and we are
committed to guaranteeing a lasting peace through peacekeeping
operations and the return of the Kosovars home to lead a normal
life again.
I hope this will be a UN peacekeeping force which will include a
broad spectrum of the various nations that usually participate in
peacekeeping operations. We must be mindful that any solution
will include the need to have a plan for reconstruction and
rehabilitation of the Kosovars into their rightful homes and the
reconstruction of the damage caused by the conflict. Once peace
has returned it will take a formidable international challenge
including massive financial resources both to guarantee peace and
to ensure reconstruction and renewal of Kosovo and the areas
destroyed by the conflict.
Therefore I join with all of us in the House in praying that the
initiative of the foreign minister will be successful. I wish
him and his colleagues in NATO and other countries, including the
Secretary General of the United Nations, a successful and
positive result in Moscow and Godspeed.
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Madam Speaker, I
thank the hon. member for his comments. He spoke about the
peacekeeping force and I am sure he heard earlier the hon.
minister speak about that force as well.
Would the hon. member, being on the government side, have any
knowledge of whether or not the Russians have been informed of
this massing of troops? Would he feel that might jeopardize or
impair ongoing diplomatic efforts?
Mr. Clifford Lincoln: Madam Speaker, I do not have any
particular knowledge except that there are now some 12,000 troops
already in place for peacekeeping purposes in the same way as our
800 troops will be involved.
The Prime Minister confirmed that these troops are there purely
in anticipation of a peacekeeping role in Kosovo. The foreign
minister is going to Moscow this week. I am sure he will assure
the Russians that this is the intention of the troops there
including ours. I do not see it prejudicing any possibility of a
solution involving the Russians.
1345
[Translation]
Mr. René Laurin (Joliette, BQ): Madam Speaker, we have now been
discussing the problems in Kosovo for more than a month. I
believe it is important for us to examine the progress we have
made because the Prime Minister has just told us that he is now
sending troops to Macedonia.
The situation is, briefly, as follows: Kosovar refugees have
been driven out of Kosovo. Of these, some 140,000 are in
Macedonia, 375,000 in Albania, and 75,000 in Montenegro. Some
are in France, and a few in England. It is estimated that, in
all, about 735,000 Kosovars have been forced out of their
country.
In addition, it is estimated that another 500,000 to 800,000
have been forced out of their homes but remain within Kosovo.
Considering that there are about two million Albanians in
Kosovo, this means that more than three-quarters of the
population is now experiencing instability.
This situation requires us to ask ourselves what our reaction
should be, as a country that is outside this theatre of military
conflict.
Obviously, we cannot be insensitive to the situation, but it
must be kept in mind that what we are seeking first of all is to
restore peace. We also seek to prevent more Kosovars being
forced out of their country. We seek to restore peace. We want
to see the expelled Kosovars be allowed to return to their
country of origin and start to rebuild.
So we cannot oppose any action that might lead to the
achievement of these objectives. The last measure we discussed
was an embargo by NATO members and neighbouring countries to
block oil supplies to Serbia.
Obviously, if, after we have bombed oil refineries and destroyed
this means of oil production, they succeed in obtaining oil
supplies from outside, we have not really resolved the problem.
There are in fact countries that would stand to benefit since,
for them, this is a new export target. It could be economically
attractive, as a stopgap measure.
We are not talking about a blockade. I think that was made
clear. Setting up a blockade could be very dangerous, because
it assumes military force will be used against tankers bringing
supplies to Serbia.
There could be Russian tankers among these ships, and the
Russians are sympathetic to the Serbian cause, at present. Will
we open up new fronts? I think we have to be very careful.
An embargo implies the willing consent of all possible oil
suppliers. If the international community is aware of the
danger Kosovo represents, it should willingly agree to this
embargo and refuse to deliver oil to this country in conflict.
1350
The best solution is still patience, diplomacy and political
negotiations.
It is true we are dropping bombs, and there are skirmishes.
There is no ground combat, but there is air combat. However, we
must think that, beyond the fighting, there will have to be
peace one day. So every action taken today must be taken,
considered and planned according to what will happen at the end
of the conflict.
It is all very well to crush a people and a political regime,
but to crush the feelings and emotions of a people is something
else. These people will have to live together after the
conflict and live in peace.
The Kosovars and the Serbs will have to live next to each other
and maintain economic, social and political relations. They will
have to accept to live as a community.
When two peoples are pitted against each other, they can be
forced to cohabit. They can be physically forced to do
something, but we cannot change their souls, their minds, their
feelings and their emotions through force.
The consequences of this conflict may be felt for many years, if
not generations. This is why we must carefully measure the
impact of each action, to avoid exacerbating the psychological
state of those who will have to live together after the conflict
has ended.
We must save lives, not only the lives of Kosovars, who are
currently mistreated and forced from their homes, but also the
lives of Serbs. There are Serbs who are innocent in this
conflict. There is a president, a dictator who does not care
about the population. However, there are also innocent Serbs who
are being forced to take military action.
Not all the Serbs are prepared to take arms in this conflict.
These people also deserve to live. They too are at the mercy of
a tyrant and they will need understanding and help. Their lives
deserve to be saved just like those of the Kosovars and of the
people in neighbouring countries.
Instability in the Balkans would pose a threat to all of Europe
and perhaps even to the other countries that might be drawn into
a world war.
We must take great care that this goal of saving lives now does
not lead us to thoughtless acts of war that would yield
undesirable results.
At any rate, the decisions being made are very serious. This is
why we congratulated the Prime Minister today on informing us of
Canada's most recent decision to send troops over there. We are
delighted that the House was the first to be informed, but we
believe this is not enough.
We still ask for a vote on this and on the deployment of troops.
We do not know what the future will bring.
1355
What will happen to the 600 or 800 Canadian troops who are going
to be sent to Macedonia in the weeks to come? They will bear
arms, they might come under attack. This has already begun. This
morning a dispatch published in Le Monde said “Acts of anger or
open hostility against NATO countries are becoming more numerous
in Macedonia”.
Further it said “The twelve thousand NATO men stationed in
Macedonia frequently have stones thrown at them. On April 20, a
French forces jeep was set on fire in a village inhabited by
Serbs”. This is happening in Macedonia. This is what NATO troops
are being subjected to.
How can we tell whether in a week or two—
The Speaker: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but his
time is up.
He will still have five minutes to respond to other members'
questions or comments after Oral Question Period.
We will now proceed to Statements by Members.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
AIR CADETS
Mr. Bryon Wilfert (Oak Ridges, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this
year marks the 30th anniversary of the 778 Banshee Royal Canadian
Air Cadet Squadron in Richmond Hill.
From its early beginnings in 1969, the 778 Banshee Squadron has
been an active force in the community, whether it has been in
helping out with many community activities or in supporting local
charities. Its tireless efforts were rewarded in 1998 by the
town of Richmond Hill by being awarded the best volunteer
organization in the community.
From an initial membership of 30 in 1969 to a strength of 110
today, the cadets are continually learning that hard work and
team effort produce positive results. Their motto: To learn, to
serve, to advance.
The rewards of joining the air cadets are many. The vision and
attributes it builds in our youth are outstanding.
Commanding Officer Javed Khan, his officers and civilian
instructor team and all the cadets have much to be proud of. I
take this opportunity to congratulate them. I wish them every
success in the future.
* * *
FREEDOM OF THE PRESS
Mr. Howard Hilstrom (Selkirk—Interlake, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, freedom of the press is one of the cornerstones of a
democratic society. I believe this cornerstone is being weakened
by the direct intervention of the federal government.
Terry Milewski of the CBC reported possible misconduct by the
Prime Minister. The PMO complained and Milewski was suspended.
Given the price he paid in reporting this story, will Milewski be
willing to report negatively on the Prime Minister in the future?
John Collison, a vocal critic of Winnipeg's mayor, was recently
dismissed as a talk show host at Winnipeg radio station 1290 Fox.
He was fired because in his words “station managers feared
reprisal from the CRTC”. Mr. Collison stated, “I feel the CRTC
has created a situation where you are advised to check your civil
liberties at the door, that if you enter a broadcast profession,
you give up the freedom of conscience, expression and speech”.
I may not agree with a journalist's opinion or with how the
journalist reports a story. However, I will defend with my life
their right to freely express their opinions without government
interference.
* * *
MINING INDUSTRY
Hon. Charles Caccia (Davenport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
arsenic is a very dangerous substance when it comes in contact
with humans. Arsenic often reaches drinking water from mining
operations.
In Yellowknife the Giant gold mine contains 260,000 tonnes of
arsenic dust. Clean-up costs are estimated at $100 million. The
owner of the mine has filed for bankruptcy. Who will pay for the
clean-up?
Meanwhile in Ontario the provincial government has failed to
prevent massive arsenic leaks from an old mine and toxic waste
dump near Belleville.
Clearly where pollution has already occurred, the polluter must
pay. The mining industry has a responsibility to the public and
should not leave Canadians on the hook for the damage caused by
its activities. The mining industry should live up to its
Yellowknife declaration and clean up its contaminated sites
instead of passing on the damage to the public purse, mainly to
Canadians at large.
* * *
INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF FIRE FIGHTERS
Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise today to welcome the International Association of Fire
Fighters to Ottawa as it holds its eighth annual Canadian
Legislative Conference.
Firefighters form the backbone of our emergency services. They
are always the first on the scene. They are always prepared to
do whatever it takes to deliver others from harm's way, including
risking their own lives.
As the former chair of the Whitby Fire Department, I had the
opportunity to work closely with these men and women. I can
personally attest to their professionalism, their loyalty and
their devotion to making our communities safer.
1400
The IAFF continues to push for the adoption of Operation Respond
and for the establishment of a third party federally regulated
investigative agency that would help protect firefighters from
some of the dangers they face on a daily basis.
Renowned on the hill for their hospitality, our firefighters
have come to us with proposals that will make our communities
much safer. I thank them for their continuing efforts and wish
them a successful conclusion to their visit in Ottawa.
* * *
LEUKEMIA
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
recently I had the pleasure of meeting a truly special individual
from Kootenay—Columbia, a young lady who has beaten the odds and
provided inspiration for people across Canada and the world.
Pamela Finnie, who lives in Golden, B.C., was diagnosed with
leukemia in 1994 when she was 10 years old. At that time, Pamela
found it difficult to talk to anyone about her illness and
instead channelled her feelings into a scrapbook, stories and
even a book entitled “My Life with Leukemia”.
She also used her creative talents to develop a board game for
kids called “Talking for Tokens”. Knowing how she felt when
she was diagnosed with leukemia and how hard it was to talk about
it, Pamela created the game to help other kids with cancer to
express their feelings.
Pamela is now 15 years old and tomorrow will be honoured with
the Terry Fox Award on the 10th annual YTV Achievement Awards. I
know I speak for everyone in Kootenay—Columbia and, I am sure,
in the House when I thank her for her inspiration and unwavering
strength. Congratulations to Pamela.
* * *
YOUTH VIOLENCE
Mr. Gurbax Singh Malhi (Bramalea—Gore—Malton—Springdale,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, last week two teenagers killed 13 people
at a high school in Littleton, Colorado, in the U.S. Those who
say it cannot happen here in Canada should remember December 6,
1989 when 14 young women were killed in Montreal.
Television, movies, computers, video games and the Internet, all
these modern developments are leading to a decline in empathy
among today's youth. Contact with machines is no substitute for
human interaction. Technology firms and research groups must
reconsider the impact of the various mass media on our humanity.
It is time for government to introduce more public awareness
programs through community groups, schools, police and volunteer
organizations aimed at helping youth get in touch with their
feelings and the feelings of others.
* * *
[Translation]
GOVERNMENT OF QUEBEC
Mr. Nick Discepola (Vaudreuil—Soulanges, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
referendum campaign is off and running.
The odds are strong that the PQ government will be tempted to
use public funds in the coming months to promote Quebec's
separation from the rest of Canada.
Quebec would still face a period of political instability with
consequent economic repercussions. Separatists will be sending
unsettling messages to possible investors.
But Quebeckers will not fall for these PQ tricks.
They will be able to distinguish between the messages of
separation sent by the PQ over the next few months and the
federal government's call for co-operation in improving the
Canadian federation.
* * *
[English]
VETERANS
Mr. Bob Wood (Nipissing, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise in
the House today to take this opportunity to pay tribute to two
esteemed veterans who passed away a few days ago, Wallace Pike
from Newfoundland and James A. MacAuley from Prince Edward
Island. Both of these men were the last surviving veterans from
the first world war in their respective provinces.
A retired brigadier with the Salvation Army, Wallace Pike fought
alongside fellow Canadians in some of the great war's most
infamous battles, including Ypres and Vimy Ridge. He was forced
to return to Newfoundland after being hit by burning shrapnel
that blew off two fingers on his right hand.
James A. MacAuley enlisted in the Canadian army two years into
the first world war shortly after reaching the age of 16. He was
sent to the front lines in France in the summer of 1917 and spent
most of the war in the trenches.
At a very young age, these two men were exposed to the brutal
reality of war. They sacrificed their youth so that we could
enjoy our freedom.
We thank James and Wallace. Canada remembers their contribution
and will never forget them.
* * *
CHILD PORNOGRAPHY
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
had the pleasure today of presenting a petition from over 100,000
Canadians who are calling for the enforcement of Canadian law
against child pornography. This is the single largest petition
of this parliament. It is twice as large as the next largest
petition. It has reached this size in only a few short weeks and
more continue to come in. This is because three months ago a
B.C. court struck down laws against child pornography. The
Liberals voted against upholding the law when they voted down a
Reform motion in February.
Meanwhile, pornography has poured into B.C. and court cases are
on hold.
1405
The court appeal has finally begun. How much longer will it
take the government to give Canadians their law back and stop
putting children at risk? Canadians are telling those who
champion more rights that they have gone way too far when we can
no longer protect the most vulnerable in our society.
* * *
[Translation]
YOUNG OFFENDERS
Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg, BQ): Mr. Speaker, when it
comes to young offenders, the federal government is at complete
odds with the supreme court.
In a recent decision, the court said that the federal government
was sending far too many offenders to jail. The court pointed
out that Canada had one of the highest rates of people behind
bars of any country in the world and that the number of jail
sentences handed down by Canadian courts had increased in recent
years.
What is the federal government's response? It is scrapping the
existing Young Offenders Act, which has been working just fine,
and introducing a bill that will now put adolescents in the
repressive environment of adult prisons. And it is doing this
to keep the Reform Party happy and ape our neighbours to the
south.
The Bloc Quebecois urges the Minister of Justice to listen to
the supreme court and not impose its new young offenders
legislation on Quebec.
* * *
QUEBEC MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Denis Paradis (Brome—Missisquoi, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
Quebeckers are tired of referendums, and Premier Bouchard is
promising us another one.
He has even sent Louise Beaudoin, his minister of international
relations, to Belgium, where she told the newspaper Le Soir, as
reported in its April 12 edition, that Canada and Quebec are
drifting apart.
She went on to say “Things are such in Canada now that the
federal government has become the central government. The
provinces are simply advisory bodies, in essence like any other
body”.
Ms. Beaudoin, come home quick. Being far away, you have lost
the sense of what Canada is all about—decentralization,
consensus and flexibility.
* * *
[English]
CANCER
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, we are ending cancer month on a note of despair, not
hope.
We have firefighters here today trying to get the government to
minimize exposure to cancer causing hazardous products. We also
have new statistics showing that lung cancer related deaths are
actually going up. This year 17,000 Canadians will die from lung
cancer.
Tragically these deaths are preventable because nine out of ten
are caused by smoking and smoking, we know, is not an accident.
That is why tobacco companies spend millions of dollars
advertising their products. We know the rate among young people
is actually going up and advertising plays a role.
The real question for us today is: Why is the federal
government so acquiescent in the face of pressure from industry?
Why does it not listen to the firefighters and implement
Operation Respond? Why does it not listen to the cancer society
and to the voices of young people and actually do something about
young people and smoking?
As we wrap up another cancer month, let us recommit ourselves to
do whatever we can to stamp out this deadly disease.
* * *
HOUSING
Ms. Carolyn Parrish (Mississauga Centre, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I rise today to pay tribute to the Affordability and
Choice Today program, ACT, at the Canada Mortgage and Housing
Corporation. This program, which was recognized in 1998 by the
United Nations Centre for Human Settlements, was selected as one
of the top 100 global best practices in improving the living
environment.
The Minister of Public Works and Government Services recently
announced that 14 grants worth up to $20,000 each were awarded
under the ACT program. Members should also note that the
minister has extended the program for an additional three years.
The ACT program helps improve affordability and choice in housing
by finding innovative projects that demonstrate and encourage
local level regulatory reform.
Once again, congratulations to CMHC and its partners in the ACT
program, the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, the Canadian
Home Builders' Association and the Canadian Housing and Renewal
Association.
* * *
IBM CANADA
Mr. Jim Jones (Markham, PC): Mr. Speaker, as home to over
750 technology companies and growing, the town of Markham is
Canada's high tech capital. That reputation grew on Friday when
IBM Canada officially announced that the new site for the IBM
software solutions laboratory will be in Markham.
This lab is one of Canada's largest research and development
facilities and employs more than 1,500 software developers,
engineers and support staff. IBM lab employees currently work at
three separate leased facilities in the greater Toronto area.
Starting in the fall of 2001, they will all work in a new $125
million state of the art building in Markham. This is the latest
example of IBM's positive contribution to Canada.
1410
In 1998 alone, IBM Canada has invested $250 million in research
and development, hired over 3,300 regular employees, has a
workforce of over 17,000 regular workers across the country and
will provide work term experience for 800 students.
Let us do more to nurture the success of companies like IBM
Canada.
* * *
RADIO MUSIC AWARDS
Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
last month some of Canada's best new artists were honoured when
the Canadian Radio Music Awards were presented during Canadian
Music Week.
The nominees were chosen as first time charted artists based on
radio spins recorded last year. The winners were determined by
votes from radio station program and music directors as well as
on-air staff.
I would like to congratulate this year's winners: Melanie
Doane; the Matthew Good Band; Bruce Guthro; the Moffatts; Heather
Nova; VIP; Love Inc.; Justin Gray from the Band 3 Deep; and, of
course, Shania Twain.
Once again I offer my congratulations to these Canadian artists
and invite everyone to encourage them and other Canadian
performers in their quest for success and excellence.
* * *
[Translation]
AMATEUR SPORT
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
a remarkable woman, an exemplary citizen, a trainer who led the
Canadian women's hockey team to a perfect record and who headed
the team that was the pride of us all, that is Danièle
Sauvageau, Quebecker, francophone and competent.
But the Canadian ice hockey association is laying her off. What
is wrong? Is it because Danièle Sauvageau is not from western
Canada? Because she is a francophone? Or because she is a woman?
A Quebec trainer for a year, is that enough?
This is another case of an organization funded by Heritage
Canada guilty of flagrant, petty and unacceptable
discrimination. And what control is there over this
organization? None, chorus the good Liberal members.
Wrong. In the case of such patent and unfair discrimination by
a petty and miserable clique, the minister must intervene and
cut funds, if need be. And clean house while she is at it.
Discrimination and injustice in Canadian sports organizations
funded by taxpayers—enough is enough.
* * *
[English]
FRASER RIVER
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
in my riding and in other ridings in B.C., local emergency
officials are warning residents to be well prepared and ready for
a flood or high water. If the area gets a long hot spell, a
record snow fall or heavy rains, it could cause a major flood on
the Fraser River.
Not to worry, some say, because the municipal dikes are built to
withstand a flood equal to the devastating floods of 1894 and
1948. However, local officials have told me that due to cutbacks
in funding more than 100 kilometres of dike in the valley have
been poorly maintained and do not meet that standard. Much of
that 100 kilometres is in my riding.
If a flood should occur, how can I assure my constituents that
they will receive the emergency assistance that the military can
provide so well, when the Liberal government has closed CFB
Chilliwack? Will men and equipment be flown in from Alberta to
Abbotsford airport which might be under water?
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Surely the
government can assure British Columbians that it has done all it
can to prepare for the possibility of flooding and that it is
ready to provide immediate effective assistance if a flood should
occur.
* * *
PENSIONS
Mrs. Michelle Dockrill (Bras d'Or—Cape Breton, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, Bill C-78 is about a basic principle: Who owns pension
funds? Most Canadians agree that pensions are delayed earnings
and belong to the workers. At one point the Liberals believed
this too.
In 1986 a Liberal member spoke on pension legislation and said:
Those pension funds should be solely directed toward the payment
of pension benefits to retiring and outgoing workers.
Last night that member, the Minister of Canadian Heritage,
proved how much value we can place on the words of a Liberal in
opposition. She could have voted to protect the rights of
members of the armed forces, public employees, RCMP members and
their families. Instead, she voted for legislation to take away
their pension surplus and turn it into a personal account for the
Minister of Finance.
The Minister of Canadian Heritage got it right in 1986. Pension
funds and any surplus belong to the workers. The federal
government should set an example for other employers. Instead,
the government is ramming through legislation that tramples the
principle for which people have fought for decades.
* * *
CANCHILD CENTRE
Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
salute the good work of the Hamilton based CanChild Centre for
Childhood Disability Research.
Formed in 1989, CanChild works to maximize the life quality of
children and youth with disabilities and their families. Its
multidisciplinary team has taken a leadership role in identifying
emerging issues for research, practice, policy and education and
works to educate consumers, service providers, policy makers and
students.
Today, CanChild's research in products have been translated into
a dozen languages and are being used around the world.
1415
I congratulate members of CanChild on the success they have
achieved in helping others. This shows that Canadian researchers
are second to none.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
KOSOVO
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, this morning the Prime Minister informed the House that
Canada would be committing peacekeeping forces to Kosovo. The
mission would be to enforce a peace agreement when it is reached
with the Yugoslav government.
Since we are being asked to commit peacekeepers to Kosovo, is
the government assuming that there will soon be a peace agreement
to enforce there?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, we hope there will be a peace agreement and we are
working hard to try to achieve one. As I said in the House
yesterday, there are a number of active discussions going on.
There are a number of interventions taking place in Moscow.
Some indication has come out of Belgrade that certain political
leaders there are of a mind to do it. We are actively engaged in
trying to get a diplomatic process together to get agreement on
the five points that have been raised, and particularly come to
grips with the fundamental issue of having an international force
in Kosovo to protect refugees. That is the key issue.
All I can say to the hon. Leader of the Opposition is that we
are making every effort, along with many others, to try to bring
that about.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, if there are no solid signs from the Yugoslav government
that it is prepared to commit to a peace agreement, what is the
government really committing these troops to?
If these ground troops enter Kosovo, even under the umbrella of
a tentative peace agreement, is there not a real possibility that
they will find themselves involved in a serious armed conflict
and what we are really being asked to do is to commit ground
troops to the conflict in Yugoslavia?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as the Prime Minister said today, these
800 troops are being sent over in connection with peacekeeping
functions. They will be located in Macedonia. They will be
working with a British brigade. That is why they are going to
that specific location.
There are already some 12,000 troops in Macedonia who are there
for purposes of moving into Kosovo when a peace agreement is
reached. Then we will go in there to help bring about peace and
security for the people of Kosovo.
There is no other reason for them to be there. As the Prime
Minister has said, if there is any change in those terms or
conditions there would be further debate in the House.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, what we do not want to do is commit 800 Canadian troops
to a peacekeeping role in Kosovo and then three, four or five
weeks down the road have the government come back and tell us
that these troops are now engaged in a full ground war because
the peace agreement collapsed.
We want to make sure that these troops are committed to
enforcing a peace, in other words not making war. If what the
Prime Minister wants is a commitment of Canadian ground forces to
peacekeeping activities only, why does he not bring a clear,
votable motion to that effect before parliament?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I will make the position very clear. We have already
had four take note debates on this matter. There has been
general assent for the idea of Canadian troops being involved in
peacekeeping activities.
I do not see any change from that situation as compared to what
the Prime Minister had to say so eloquently this morning.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
that could be some comfort except that this morning a top
American envoy met with the Russian government. Those
negotiations were hampered by the NATO embargo of Russian ships.
NATO has a no compromise position that makes it hard, if not
impossible, to broker a peace deal. How could this NATO no
compromise position ever entice the Russians to broker a peace
deal?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I am not quite sure what this no compromise position
is that the hon. member talked about.
We have just come from a NATO summit where the basic outreach to
the Russians was strongly endorsed by all the countries. We
talked about the need to have a broader international force, not
just a NATO force. We talked about the importance of developing
major initiatives in the Balkan region to help in the
reconstruction.
I do not think there is a no compromise position. What there is
no compromise on is the fundamental principle of securing the
safety and rights of the people of Kosovo.
1420
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): We agree, Mr.
Speaker, but we cannot have it both ways. The Minister of
Foreign Affairs will soon follow the American envoy, the UN
secretary general and the foreign minister of Greece in a
diplomatic mission to Moscow.
What specifically will our Minister of Foreign Affairs be able
to bring to the table in Moscow that is not already being offered
by the Greeks, the Americans and the UN secretary general
himself?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
To begin with, Mr. Speaker, I hope the one thing I can bring is
the full endorsement of the House, representing all Canadians, to
find a peaceful resolution. That is what I hope I can bring. I
hope we can be assured of that matter, because we decided coming
out of the Washington meetings that it was important to engage in
a dialogue.
In particular, one thing we have very much in common with the
Russian government at this point in time is that we both want to
see an involvement of the United Nations Security Council as a
major player in helping to secure a peaceful resolution. That is
something we can identify with and work with the Russians on.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
according to this morning's Montreal Gazette, while the European
Union is trying to put an oil embargo in place against
Yugoslavia, some U.S. companies are selling oil to Yugoslavia.
This would appear to be a completely ridiculous situation.
Can the Minister of Foreign Affairs tell us whether some U.S.
companies are indeed delivering petroleum products to
Yugoslavia, in violation of the European embargo?
[English]
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I do not know if that is the case, but
the United States government, along with the European Union
governments, would want to ensure that such products which are
supporting the war effort of the Yugoslav government would not
get into Yugoslavia.
The idea behind the embargo that NATO would be involved in
policing would ensure the will of these individual governments is
met when merchant ships are coming toward that harbour.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I
find it somewhat surprising that the minister would not be aware
of this.
It seems to me that it is rather important to be kept current,
since adoption of such a strategy of bombing the Yugoslav
refineries would place our soldiers in danger, if the Yugoslav
forces have fuel to fight back.
The Minister of Foreign Affairs will be going to Moscow. Can he
assure us that no Canadian company, or foreign company with
subsidiaries in Canada, is delivering petroleum products to
Yugoslavia in violation of the embargo and of the entire
strategy upon which there should be total NATO solidarity?
Otherwise, this becomes ridiculous; we are just shooting
ourselves in the foot.
[English]
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, according to the information we have, no petroleum
products have been exported from Canada since January 1998.
In this case Canada is clearly on line with what the embargo is
presenting. We will make sure that if countries sign on to the
embargo they will adhere to its requirements.
[Translation]
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
hope for a diplomatic solution through Russia appears to be
fading.
This morning, in Moscow, Mr. Chernomyrdin repeated that NATO's
air campaign had to stop to allow negotiations with Belgrade to
get under way. As for Mr. Draskovic, he seems to have backed
down from the comments he made yesterday.
In that context, I ask the Minister of Foreign Affairs if the
deployment of additional forces in Macedonia, as announced by
the Prime Minister, and the call up of 33,000 reservists by the
United States are signs of the imminent sending of ground troops
into Kosovo?
[English]
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I think the leader of the New Democratic Party put it
properly this morning. The commitment made today to fulfil our
commitment to ensure there is a peace implementation force is one
of the best signs and indications that we want a peaceful
resolution to the dispute.
[Translation]
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Mr. Speaker, we
also believe that a diplomatic solution is best. However, the
number of troops now gathering outside Kosovo's border is very
large.
Did the Prime Minister make a slip of the tongue this morning
when he said that helicopters may be used in Kosovo? In making
that comment, did he not give another indication that the
sending of ground troops into Kosovo is now imminent?
1425
[English]
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): No, Mr. Speaker. We are sending them there for
peacekeeping purposes. The helicopters are part of the
reconnaissance purpose of the Canadian forces that will be there.
There are some 800 of them. They will be in neighbouring
Macedonia. They will be there working with the British. They
will take some training time when they get over there so they are
ready to move into Kosovo when a peace agreement is reached.
Meanwhile, they will also be able to help out in the
humanitarian effort with respect to the refugees that are there,
help to protect those refugees.
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the foreign affairs minister.
Canada has announced that it is sending 800 ground troops to
enforce a peace settlement in Kosovo. However there is no peace
settlement. What we have instead is a NATO embargo in the face
of Russian objections.
Does the government believe this interference with Russian
ships, this military escalation, enhances prospects for a
peaceful settlement?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I think the Prime Minister answered that question
very succinctly this morning when he said the whole purpose of
the embargo is to continue to apply the pressure that is
necessary to bring the Milosevic regime to the table to begin to
negotiate .
We will not go out of our way to provide any provocation. It
will be done within sort of the legal rules. We have asked the
planners at NATO to come up with the proposals that would
incorporate those kinds of elements.
What we are doing is what I said yesterday, trying to get a
balanced approach. We will continue the negotiation but continue
the pressure at the same time.
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
Prime Minister has said that he supports his foreign affairs
minister's diplomatic mission to Moscow. However, again today he
made it clear that he also supports the NATO embargo.
This sets us on a collision course since Russia has made it
clear that it will not respect a NATO embargo. How can the Prime
Minister pretend that this provocation will help secure Russian
co-operation for a peace settlement?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I do not see it that way. I really want to suggest
to the hon. member that what is being applied, coming out of the
NATO summit meetings, is the important unified position of
keeping pressure applied to the Milosevic regime through the air
campaign, through cutting off supplies to his military
activities. At the same time it is important, as a clear
connection to that, that we undertake negotiations and have the
Russians become involved in seeking the solution.
I certainly can report to the hon. member discussions I have had
this morning with some of the people who have already been there.
It does not appear to be as big a problem for the Russians as it
appears to be for the leader of the New Democratic Party.
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, my
question relates to the Prime Minister's announcement this
morning. We all hope in the House that the Prime Minister will
make a full report to parliament on the NATO Washington meeting,
as Prime Minister Blair did in his parliament yesterday.
Have orders in council been passed authorizing the sending of
Canadian air force personnel and peacekeepers to Yugoslavia? If
not, how are their veterans benefits being secured?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, for anybody who serves in the Canadian
forces in an overseas mission in a hostile situation there are
special allowances and special provisions with respect
subsequently to pensions for any that are injured. All of these
apply in this particular circumstance.
We are absolutely determined if we send any of our peacekeepers,
any of our air force personnel into harm's way, to look after
them as best we can. We will reduce the risk to them while they
are there. If something does happen—we hope it will not—to any
of them we will look after them as best we can.
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker,
according to the defence minister's own staff and according to
legal counsel from the House of Commons, the order in council
that is in place is inadequate at the present time and the
statutes are not sufficient. Our research indicates that the
order in council the minister referred to last week is
insufficient.
I am asking the Prime Minister today to pass a retroactive order
in council to ensure that our troops, both in the air and on the
ground, will receive the veterans benefits when they return. Or,
will it turn a blind eye to these troops as it did to merchant
navy veterans 54 years ago?
1430
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I can assure the hon. lady that the Minister of National
Defence will take all necessary steps to make certain that our
valiant troops and air force and naval people in the area will
get all those benefits to which they are fully entitled. All
necessary steps will be taken. The hon. lady can be assured of
that.
Mr. Jim Hart (Okanagan—Coquihalla, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the official opposition offers its moral support to the 800
troops that the government has committed today. I think
Canadians should all pray for a safe and speedy return. However,
there are many questions that must be answered.
The 800 Canadian troops heading to the former Yugoslavia will be
working in conjunction with the British Fourth Armoured Division.
Canadians want to know precisely what the command and control
structure will be. Will our troops be commanded by Canadian
officers or will the British have complete command and control
over our forces?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, of course the immediate command of our
forces will be by the Canadians who are there, but they will be
operating as part of a British brigade, so they will be working
closely with the British in that connection.
All of the details of that will be worked out, as is required,
and we will be happy to inform members of the details.
Mr. Jim Hart (Okanagan—Coquihalla, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
these are urgent issues on which all Canadians want to have
details.
One of the most important questions that must be answered today,
however, is the matter of rules of engagement for this mission.
Somalia and Bosnia have shown us that the rules of engagement
must be established at home, in Canada, before the deployment of
a mission.
Will Canada determine its own rules of engagement, or will they
be determined by NATO? Will the defence minister tell us
precisely today what those rules of engagement will entail?
Hon. Arthur C. Eggleton (Minister of National Defence,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, they will be NATO rules of engagement.
We are part of NATO and we are part of working out those rules of
engagement. I would be happy to provide the hon. member with
that information.
* * *
[Translation]
MILLENNIUM SCHOLARSHIPS
Mr. Bernard Bigras (Rosemont, BQ): Mr. Speaker, as usual, the
Minister of Human Resources Development has not answered the
very specific questions about the millennium scholarships.
We know why: the foundation's administrative costs are estimated
at 5% of the annual $300 million in scholarships, or $150
million over 10 years.
Does the Minister of Human Resources Development realize that
the federal government's stubborn insistence on this further
duplication will deprive 50,000 students of $3,000 scholarships?
Does the minister realize this, or is he waiting for the
students to come and tell him?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am not waiting for the
students to come and tell me. I will soon be meeting with the
students, who asked to see me again. That will be next
Thursday. I always enjoy meeting with the students.
However, I hope we will be able to talk the Government of Quebec
out of its inflexibility. Last week, it was on again about the
right to opt out with full compensation, when even the National
Assembly's unanimous resolution does not mention this.
It was Minister Legault who brought this up again last week, but
what I would like to see is an agreement between the foundation
and the government to help Quebec's students.
Mr. Bernard Bigras (Rosemont, BQ): Mr. Speaker, how does the
minister explain that, even though the money in the EI fund
belongs to workers and employers, he refuses to create an
autonomous fund, but when it comes to the millennium
scholarships, he is handing over $2.5 billion of taxpayers'
money to a private foundation so as not to be accountable? Is
this not an out and out contradiction?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I see that Bloc Quebecois
members are again opposing the fact that Canada wants to
celebrate the advent of the new millennium by providing
assistance to students.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew: It is absolutely incredible that the
government is being criticized for wanting to help students with
a ten year program to help them further their knowledge in a
knowledge-based economy.
It is this inflexibility, this ideology, and this referendum
campaign mindset that is harming Quebec's students.
* * *
1435
[English]
KOSOVO
Mr. Bob Mills (Red Deer, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, in answer to
an earlier question the foreign affairs minister said that he did
not understand where “no compromise” had come from. Let me
quote from the NATO communiqué of this weekend to which his
government agreed: “There can be no compromise on these
conditions”, referring to the five NATO conditions.
How can this minister go over to Moscow to negotiate when he is
not prepared to have any compromise, which is what it says in
black and white on this statement?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, there is a very substantial difference between
having a set of principles on which you do not compromise and
looking for the means of achieving those principles in which you
can accommodate and compromise. We on this side of the House are
not used to compromising our principles. Maybe the hon. member
is, but not us.
Mr. Bob Mills (Red Deer, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, we keep
hearing this doublespeak about what they mean by embargoes and
what they mean by all of these things. The bottom line is that
we are asking the Russians to give us a hand in finding a peace
settlement for Kosovo. The question is obvious. What are we
offering to the Russians? What sort of hand are we offering when
we are not prepared to break from these terms? How can we
possibly negotiate?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, in the statement given by the Prime Minister this
morning he pointed out one very major initiative that Canada
helped to create. We proposed that the international force that
would implement the agreement would not have to be just a NATO
force, that it could be broader than that. I think that was
accepted by NATO members at the summit. That was one of the
major areas of disagreement in previous negotiations with Russian
emissaries.
That is one good example around which we can discuss
establishing an international force that would implement the
agreement and would have with it the—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Drummond.
* * *
[Translation]
TAINTED BLOOD
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, last September
18, the federal government announced the injection of $300
million into a new program aimed at helping the provinces meet
the costs of health care for all victims of tainted blood.
Since Quebec already has a similar program, which provides care
to all tainted blood victims, does the minister intend to pay
Quebec its fair share of the federal funds on a per capita
basis, that is $75 million?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we have
already offered Quebec its share of this funding to ensure the
availability of medical services for those infected with
hepatitis C.
I have already sent documentation concerning this proposal to my
colleague, the Quebec Minister of Health, Mrs. Marois. I await
her response.
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in the 1996
throne speech, the government made the commitment that it would
not put into place any new cost-shared programs with the
provinces or, if it did, there would be a right to opt out with
full compensation.
In the case of this program for assistance to tainted blood
victims, will the government finally respect its own commitment
from 1996?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
hon. member is, unfortunately, mistaken. This proposal is not
affected by the commitment she refers to. The commitment is not
pertinent to this program.
What we proposed is merely an approach that will ensure that
people infected with hepatitis C can have access to the required
medical services now and in the future.
I have proposed a certain approach to Mrs. Marois, and I await
her response.
* * *
[English]
JUSTICE
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it
was presented today. Over 100,000 Canadians signed it, the
largest petition of this parliament. The petition calls for the
strong enforcement of Canadian law against child pornography.
For three months child pornography has poured into B.C. and
court cases are on hold. What is the government's answer to the
100,000 Canadian petitioners who want children to be protected
from pornographers now; not a day from now, not a month from now,
but now?
1440
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the answer is loud and clear.
It is too bad that members of the Reform Party do not stop their
scaremongering in terms of this issue and act a little more
responsibly.
Our position on child pornography and the constitutionality of
the section in question is clear. The hon. member should read
our factum. This matter is before the courts now. We believe
the law to be constitutional and we, along with the attorney
general of British Columbia, are defending that law.
Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the government had an opportunity to uphold Canadian law three
months ago. One hundred thousand names on this petition have
been gathered in three short weeks, compared to three months of
inaction. The petitioners are calling on the government to
answer this question today: When are you going to fix this? The
petitioners want it fixed now.
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this party, this government,
has respect for the rule of law. We along with attorneys
general in provinces such as British Columbia and Alberta
understand that the correct approach is to defend the existing
law, which we believe to be constitutional.
The Speaker: I ask all hon. members to please address the
Chair in their questions and answers.
* * *
[Translation]
AMATEUR SPORT
Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire (Longueuil, BQ): Mr. Speaker, yesterday,
the Prime Minister took part in the tribute to the great Maurice
Richard and praised his huge contribution to hockey in Canada.
In the meantime, Hockey Canada has treated trainer Danièle
Sauvageau in a very particular and unfair manner.
My question is for the Prime Minister. Does the Prime Minister
intend to ask Hockey Canada why it gave trainer Danièle
Sauvageau such discriminatory treatment?
Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the government honoured
its commitment to amateur sport by increasing the budget for it
by $10 million annually. Part of the budget was for improved
training for trainers.
From that to saying that the government must get involved and go
as far as to choose the trainers, as suggested by the
opposition, there is a step we are not prepared to take. It is
not up to the government to meddle in the internal
administration of national teams.
* * *
[English]
NATO
Hon. Sheila Finestone (Mount Royal, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade
tabled a report in the House on issues relating to nuclear
disarmament, including a representation that Canada urge NATO to
review the strategic concept for NATO.
Can the Minister of Foreign Affairs tell the House what steps
Canada undertook to review the strategic concept for NATO at the
summit this past weekend?
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Mount Royal for her
question. With the attention being paid to Kosovo, a very
important statement coming out of the summit was overlooked. The
NATO leaders made the commitment that arms control and
disarmament is a vital part of maintaining NATO security. The
communiqué issued clear instructions that there would be a review
of the nuclear policy for NATO and we have asked our ambassador
to start preparing recommendations in that regard. That was an
initiative which Canada supported.
I want to thank all members of the committee who helped to bring
about that very important initiative.
* * *
YOUNG OFFENDERS ACT
Mr. Chuck Cadman (Surrey North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, just
how far does the Young Offenders Act go in protecting identities?
Last Friday in Vancouver Paul Glover was awarded civil damages
against two men who assaulted him when they were teenagers. The
media will not name them, fearing repercussions under the Young
Offenders Act.
Will the Minister of Justice please clear the air? Does the
Young Offenders Act apply to civil proceedings and can we expect
the same from the new youth criminal justice act?
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have no intention of
commenting on matters that may continue to be before the court.
Mr. Chuck Cadman (Surrey North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, Paul
Glover at no time raised the issue of criminal proceedings. The
young men raised it themselves in an attempt to escape civil
liability. The minister knows that civil court is the only place
where victims can seek redress for pain and suffering.
I ask the minister again: Does the Young Offenders Act apply to
the civil courts? And there is no appeal pending.
1445
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am not going to comment on
the specifics of this case. I would be more than happy to
discuss this particular case in private with the hon. member.
* * *
PENSIONS
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, Bill
C-78, the pensions bill, is complex and has profound precedent
setting implications, yet the government moved closure after only
four hours of debate. Some 670,000 Canadians will be affected
directly, and many more indirectly, by this legislation.
Will the President of the Treasury Board assure the House today
that he will approve extended committee hearings across the
country? Will he allow those affected to voice their concerns,
even if their elected representatives here in the House of
Commons will be denied that opportunity?
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and
Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
those affected have been expressing their concerns for at least a
year. We have been negotiating in particular the issue of joint
management of the pension plans with them. The employee
representatives have been quite aware of the issues for months
and months. We have discussed with them. We have laid out the
issues in front of them.
I think what we have in Bill C-78 is something that is in the
interests of public servants and in the interests of taxpayers.
Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
President of the Treasury Board has insisted ad nauseam that he
has the right to take the $30 billion pension surplus because the
government has paid the shortfall of about $13 billion over the
years. If the plan owes the government $13 billion, where does he
get off taking $30 billion to pay for that? I could get better
terms from a Las Vegas loan shark. I probably could get better
terms from my Bank of Montreal MasterCard.
Why will the Minister not take his $13 billion and leave the
rest where it belongs to provide pension benefits for deserving
retirees?
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and
Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
Bill C-78 guarantees to public servants and continues to
guarantee to them all the benefits they have been guaranteed
before. None of these benefits are affected except that the
number of benefits are increased.
In the past, public servants have had absolutely no
responsibility for the funding of the plan. It is the taxpayers
who have taken all the risks. It is the taxpayers who have
funded all the deficits. It follows that it is the taxpayers who
deserve the surplus.
* * *
AIR SAFETY
Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the Minister of Transport.
Eleven years ago Transport Canada officials determined that the
Kelowna air traffic control tower did not meet minimum safety
standards because the air traffic controllers cannot see the
runway and cannot see the taxiway. A temporary permit was issued
to allow the tower to continue to operate on the condition that a
new tower be constructed. Eleven years later, there is no new
tower. Will the minister instruct that a new tower be built?
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, Nav Canada is responsible for air navigation in the
country and for assessing the appropriate regime that should be
used in the present circumstances.
On the particular question, I will get back to the hon. member
after researching the issue.
I want to underscore the fact that Transport Canada is
absolutely adamant that safety especially in our skies is our top
priority.
Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Mr.
Speaker, if safety is the number one priority, let me read from
the Transport Canada report on Kelowna which states: “Due to the
location and/or height of the control tower, portions of the
runway and taxiways are not visible. The problem is becoming
even more serious. The margin of safety has been jeopardized.
Visibility has been identified as a major safety concern”.
That is from a Department of Transport report and I believe it
speaks for itself. We should have a new tower in Kelowna
immediately.
Hon. David M. Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I certainly heard the hon. member's representations.
* * *
KOSOVO
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration.
Canadians collectively share a concern for the plight of
refugees from Kosovo. The minister will also know that many
members of parliament have been approached by constituents who
have family members in the area.
Will the minister please advise the House about the government's
efforts to assist the refugees from Kosovo, particularly those
with family members already in Canada?
1450
Hon. Lucienne Robillard (Minister of Citizenship and
Immigration, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I must say we are making all
the efforts we can to facilitate family reunification. Today
under our special program, the fast track process for family
reunification, we have received more than 120 applications from
Canadians who have relatives over there and it could include 700
people.
I am pleased to say to the member that the first refugees from
Kosovo will arrive today. I am sure that Canadians will welcome
them as members of our family.
* * *
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
three years ago the federal government invoked a moratorium on
gravel extraction on the Fraser River in order to protect salmon
stocks. During the past week the Cheam Indian Band has been busy
removing 100,000 tonnes of gravel from the Fraser River without a
permit and in a restricted area.
Yesterday the minister of Indian affairs struggled to her feet
and what she should have said was that she did not have a clue
what was going on. Instead she said that aboriginals should have
access to the gravel because it was an inherent right.
Why does the minister support the double standard? One set of
strict stringent guidelines for everyone who uses the river and
another special set of guidelines that seems to only apply to
aboriginals.
The Speaker: The hon. parliamentary secretary.
Mr. Wayne Easter (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Fisheries and Oceans, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, maybe if the member
had not spoken in such a gravelly voice yesterday we would have
understood him more clearly.
On this particular issue we are trying to work with the band in
a non-confrontational manner. We are investigating the matter of
the gravel. If charges should be laid, they will be laid. It is
under investigation.
* * *
[Translation]
YOUNG OFFENDERS
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Mr. Speaker, on
April 23, the supreme court ruled the following in the Gladue
judgment, and I quote “In recent years, compared to other
countries, sentences of imprisonment in Canada have increased at
an alarming rate”.
Will the Minister of Justice admit that, by imposing harsher
penalties, her young offenders bill ignores not only the large
consensus in Quebec, but also the opinion of the supreme court
itself?
[English]
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, indeed not. In fact, as the
hon. member knows, our youth justice strategy is an integrated
and balanced strategy that acknowledges the fact that this
country incarcerates too many young people. Our strategy, when
implemented, will ensure that fewer young people are incarcerated
needlessly in this country.
* * *
PENSIONS
Ms. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Mr. Speaker, in 1995
the Liberal government used the turbot war with Spain as a
smokescreen for the devastating changes to EI. These changes
have made it possible for the Liberal government to rip off $26
billion from Canadian workers. Now the Liberal government is
using the war in Kosovo as a smokescreen for the $30 billion
rip-off of pensioners.
Canadians whose pensions are affected by Bill C-78 deserve to
have their voices heard. Will the President of the Treasury
Board agree to have cross-country consultations, or is the
Liberal government intent on ramming this bill through parliament
while the war in Kosovo still provides a convenient cover?
Hon. Marcel Massé (President of the Treasury Board and
Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
once again, this question has been debated for months and months.
It has been known. We have discussed it with the unions. We
have been at the same table. They have all the information.
In this case the question is very clear. The civil servants
have been given all the benefits that are in the law. None of
them have been taken away from them. The government continues to
guarantee them by law. The surplus, once again, has been paid
for by the taxpayers. It belongs to the taxpayers. It should be
returned to the taxpayers.
* * *
DEVCO
Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Mr. Speaker, Devco
miners have been exposed to coal dust and gases that have caused
serious health side effects and led to many miners being unable
to pass medical examinations. Cape Breton has one of the highest
rates of cancer in Canada. Now the government is closing the
Devco mines leaving miners without medical plan benefits.
What is the Minister of Natural Resources doing to help the
miners and their families who are going to be without much needed
health insurance?
Hon. Ralph E. Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, as I have listed on a number of occasions in the House,
the government through a variety of means has put together a
package that totals something in the order of $550 million to
address a variety of issues in relation to Devco.
We understand very clearly that this is a very difficult
circumstance for the people in Cape Breton. We are pursuing all
possible means to ease those circumstances.
1455
If there are some specific proposals that are worthy of
consideration in respect of the continuation of medical benefits,
I would be very interested in hearing the details of any
proposal. I will do my best—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Scarborough Centre.
* * *
KOSOVO
Mr. John Cannis (Scarborough Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
over 600,000 Kosovars have sought refuge in neighbouring
countries. Half of these people are under the age of 18. As
many as 400,000 more Kosovars are internally displaced with no
access to international relief.
Can the Minister for International Cooperation update the House
as to the humanitarian situation and tell us how their needs are
being addressed?
Hon. Diane Marleau (Minister for International Cooperation
and Minister responsible for Francophonie, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, international and Canadian relief agencies are doing
excellent work under very difficult conditions.
Immunization programs are in place. There are enough food
supplies for the next two weeks with more food on its way. Better
still, the International Red Cross has been able to gain access
to Kosovo to witness conditions there. We are very hopeful that
soon they will be able to commence some relief operations for the
internally displaced in Yugoslavia.
* * *
HOCKEY
Mr. John Nunziata (York South—Weston, Ind.): Mr.
Speaker, the federal government is being asked to provide
financial assistance to National Hockey League teams.
The major contributing factor to the financial difficulties of
some NHL teams are players' salaries. The average NHL salary has
gone from $250,000 to $1,250,000 in the last seven years.
Will the government give its assurance that NHL teams will not
be given subsidies or preferential tax treatment? Will the
minister not agree that the government has no business
subsidizing wealthy professional hockey players?
Hon. John Manley (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I met earlier today with representatives of a number of
Canadian cities that are homes to professional hockey league
teams. I am happy to say to the member that nobody asked for
subsidies for professional hockey players. There was a lot of
concern expressed about the value that mayors in particular
perceived there to be for their communities to have a team
present. Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa and Montreal were represented.
I have agreed that I will continue to meet with representatives
of the appropriate stakeholders in order to consider what can be
done to ensure we do not lose all our hockey teams.
* * *
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Mike Scott (Skeena, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the minister
of Indian affairs knows that aboriginal women do not enjoy the
same rights as ordinary Canadian women across the country. She
knows that in the event of a marital breakdown, most often it is
the aboriginal woman who is out of the house and on the street,
and often with the children.
Why is it that the minister and the government negotiated a
treaty with the Nisga'a that does nothing to address this problem
and makes it out of reach that this could ever be entrenched as
rights for aboriginal women in the future?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, what I know is that as a
result of talking with aboriginal women, in Bill C-49 we have
actually taken steps to ensure that land codes will include the
reflection of matrimonial property for women in those 14 first
nations.
Under the Indian Act now we talk about communal properties and
there are no opportunities for aboriginal women. We have
identified and want to have a fact finder to help us deal with
the issue of matrimonial property. I expect to receive input
from that fact finder and make continued progress in this regard.
* * *
[Translation]
HUMAN CLONING
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the news this
morning that Quebec researchers have succeeded in cloning three
goats stresses the urgent need to settle the issue of human
cloning. Canada only has a moratorium on human cloning, while
the European Union officially took position against that
practice.
My question is for the Minister of Health. Will the minister
pledge to pass Bill C-247, which makes human cloning a criminal
offence, before the end of the session?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, a few
years ago, we imposed a voluntary moratorium on this practice.
That moratorium remains in effect.
We must of course do more. I have already begun consulting
experts, including the chairperson of the royal commission that
dealt with this issue.
It is my intention to table a bill on this issue later this
year.
* * *
1500
[English]
CANADA PENSION PLAN
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, my question concerns the Canada pension plan.
The government is aware that there are about 100 firefighters in
the hallways this week lobbying. I think the government
understands as well that this is the most dangerous occupation in
the country.
The firefighters are requesting that they be able to qualify for
reduced CPP benefits at age 55, with full benefits at age 60,
rather than the current ages of 60 and 65.
Would the Minister of Human Resources Development agree to
propose an amendment to the Canada pension plan so that
firefighters can receive those benefits at an earlier age because
of their dangerous occupation and do so without financial loss?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for
his question. I will take it under advisement.
I will look into it, as it concerns provincial jurisdiction,
and I will get back to him.
* * *
DEVCO
Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Mr. Speaker, closing
the Devco Mines is putting 1,700 miners out of work in Cape
Breton and only 337 of these miners qualify for full retirement
pensions.
There will also be remedial work to clean up the mines, work
that Devco miners need.
What plans does the Minister of Natural Resources have in place
to help the miners earn the pension points needed for full
pension?
Hon. Ralph E. Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the numbers with respect to those who may qualify for a
pension are in the order of 340 in terms of the new proposal that
we have on the table. That is in addition to about 137 under
existing old pension provisions, and 650 will qualify for
severance arrangements that work out to about $70,000 per person
on average.
In addition, there may be some future job opportunities with
respect to environmental remediation and we would obviously look
at that as an important economic diversification opportunity for
Cape Breton.
* * *
POINTS OF ORDER
QUESTION PERIOD
Mr. Jim Hart (Okanagan—Coquihalla, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
during the course of question period I asked the Minister of
National Defence about the rules of engagement. He referred to
guidelines that had been established by NATO.
I wonder if the minister would table those guidelines for the
House this afternoon.
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member opposite knows
that is not the rule. He knows the rule is that when a minister,
not anyone else, reads from a public document, that is, a
government document, he or she must table it in the House.
This has nothing to do with the fact that the minister may have
referred to something else. That is an entirely different story
and this criteria does not apply.
1505
The Speaker: I did not see the hon. minister reading or
referring to any document, so I would rule this is out of order.
Mr. Randy White: Mr. Speaker, I understood that the
question of privilege which was raised yesterday would be
responded to.
The Speaker: The question of privilege will be responded
to when the hon. member for Provencher is here. I would like to
hear what he has to say too. Whenever he is here, that is when
we will hear it.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[Translation]
SUPPLY
ALLOTTED DAY—KOSOVO
The House resumed consideration of the motion and the amendment.
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, I will use this question and comment period to
congratulate the member for Joliette on his speech. He has
stressed how important it was for NATO and Canada to take a very
firm position in order to bring the situation in Yugoslavia back
to normal, while being very active on the diplomatic front.
I would like to ask him the following question.
Students at La Pruchière school, in my riding, sent me more than
one hundred messages they have written to children in Kosovo to
give them hope, hope that the war will end soon and they will be
able to live like normal children again.
Could the member for Joliette tell me whether a vote by the
House on Canada's position on this crisis and the deployment of
troops would not help the diplomatic efforts undertaken by the
Minister of Foreign Affairs, Canada and all those involved in
this conflict bring about a peaceful settlement as soon as
possible, thereby responding to the call from the students in my
riding?
Mr. René Laurin: Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for
letting us know about the whishes of children in his riding.
This shows that we in Quebec live by the democratic spirit of
institutional governance. We want to live peacefully, this is a
concern children have very early on. For them to convey this to
children in Kosovo shows that Canadians and Quebeckers in
particular are a peace-loving people who, even when they have to
take this kind of measures, are still seeking international
peace and stability.
In a situation like this one, a vote is a must. We just gave a
mandate to our troops. We are sending from 600 to 800 soldiers
supposedly to keep the peace, but we never know when the
conflict might escalate.
As I mentioned before, the paper Le Monde was reporting today
that the 12,000 NATO troops already deployed had stones thrown
at them; two weeks ago a jeep was set on fire; and already there
are signs of impatience. These people are not in Kosovo, they
are in Macedonia.
Will the soldiers we are sending in come under attack? Will they
be the target of violence? Do they have the mandate and
authority to defend themselves?
If so, they seem to, according to what the minister said this
morning. But if they have a mandate to defend themselves against
attack by the extremists over there, what assurance do we have
that there will be no escalation, that things will not
degenerate? What assurance do we have that they will not be
forced to attack in order to defend themselves? Where is the
line drawn between legitimate self-defence, attack and combat?
1510
This means that the troops are perhaps right on the verge of
engaging in a combat that will lead who knows where.
It would therefore be important for this House to send a
message, through a precise and clear vote in this House, a heavy
majority vote, to these people who are headed off to defend
freedom, to defend democracy, telling them “You have the support
of all Canadians and all Quebeckers. The people are behind you.
They support you because they know you are going to defend the
freedom and the spirit of democracy they hold so dear”.
What more do we need? The Prime Minister tells us that, if
there were any changes in the situation, he would come back to
the House for a debate. At the end of a debate, a mere 15 or 20
minutes are needed for the House to be heard through a vote.
Is it that the Prime Minister's daily agenda is 15 or 20 minutes
too short, or is it because the issue is not on the cabinet's
agenda?
The House has spent hours upon hours, sometimes until 3, 4, 5
and even 8 in the morning, debating such issues. Since we can
talk for hours on end, what prevents us from taking an
additional 15 minutes to vote on these issues?
The Prime Minister spoke of the need for flexibility, for being
able to react quickly in extreme situations. But would 15
minutes prevent him from taking quick action? France stated its
position through its prime minister.
Today, Lionel Jospin assured French parliamentarians that the
possibility of a military involvement on the ground would not be
considered without submitting the matter to them. “In such a
case, you would be consulted in a formal fashion to authorize or
not, through a vote, such an intervention”.
If France can do it, so can Canada. This is what respect for
democracy is all about.
Mrs. Monique Guay (Laurentides, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased
to rise in this House to debate with you the motion by the New
Democratic Party, which reads as follows:
That this House call on the government to intensify and
accelerate efforts to find a diplomatic solution to the crisis
in Kosovo through the involvement of Russia and the United
Nations, and to urge NATO not to take actions that expand the
conflict and stand in the way of a diplomatic solution.
First off, I would like to inform this House and my NDP
colleagues that we will support this motion.
We support this motion because it is very similar to the
position the Bloc Quebecois has upheld and encouraged before and
during the conflict in Kosovo, namely, a diplomatic solution
that would involve the United Nations, Russia and, why not add
China. We must not forget China. It is still a member of the
UN security council and has a veto. China alone could paralyze
all the actions of the UN.
The Bloc Quebecois has always hoped that the current conflict in
the Balkans could be resolved under the aegis of the United
Nations, as was Iraq's aggression against Kuwait, in 1991.
Unfortunately, the close historical ties between Russia and
Serbia, like the special relationship Yugoslavia maintains with
China, has made the diplomatic route increasingly difficult.
The conflict we are currently witnessing in Kosovo is the
product of many years of instability in the Balkans, fomented
primarily by a single man, or should I say dictator, Slobodan
Milosevic.
For more than ten years, Milosevic has played with the nerves of
the people of Kosovo and the international community. Patience
has its limits. Before this conflict began, members will agree,
a number of diplomatic attempts were made. The diplomatic
impasse has lasted for over a year.
1515
Over and over again, the international community tried to come
up with a diplomatic solution to end the war and repression in
Kosovo.
There were UN resolutions 1199 and 1203, as well as the October
1998 accords between the OSCE, NATO and the former Yugoslavia,
which were never enforced. We could also include the
Rambouillet agreement, but the refusal of Yugoslavian
authorities to sign this agreement was at the root of NATO's
offensive against Milosevic and his war machine.
After all the foot-dragging, discussions and negotiations, the
situation in Kosovo became unbearable. In fact, we now know
that Milosevic's strategy was to play for time in order to
complete his ethnic cleansing of Kosovo.
For all these reasons, the Bloc Quebecois supported NATO's
military intervention in Kosovo and in Yugoslavia so as not to
let the situation in Kosovo worsen further, and the present
situation there shows that we were right.
UNHCR estimates that close to 585,000 Kosovar Albanians have
taken refuge in neighbouring countries. Seventy thousand of
them had already fled to these countries between March 1998 and
the first NATO air strikes on March 24.
There are over 120,000 refugees in non-neighbouring countries,
mainly throughout Europe, which, according to UNHCR estimates,
brings to over 700,0000 the total number of refugees who fled
Kosovo since 1998. Not to mention the rapes, physical atrocities
and mental anguish a whole people has had to endure.
In the light of these atrocities, it was appropriate for the
Bloc Quebecois to support an intervention by NATO. This did not
mean diplomatic efforts had to stop. There is always room for
diplomacy.
It is in times of crisis that the strengths and weaknesses of an
organization become apparent. In this respect, Canada's foreign
policy has showed its weaknesses through its lack of vision and
direction and, as a result, its lack of credibility.
Canada has been a member of the UN security council since
January 1.
How then can we explain that Canada, through a lack of
initiative, did not intensify its efforts to give the UN its
rightful place in this conflict? Once again, Canada's
international relations policy has been dictated by the United
States and countries in the alliance.
Not to mention some mind-boggling improvization. Last Friday, the
Prime Minister said that a UN negotiated solution to the
conflict in Kosovo was not foreseeable in the near future.
However, three days later, he now hopes the UN will participate
in an international force to be deployed in Kosovo when the war
is over.
Could it be that the Prime Minister just remembered Canada is a
member of the UN security council, and that it is about time it
used this influential position to find a diplomatic solution to
the conflict?
After 34 days of conflict, Canada has finally woken up.
It is Canada's duty to use every means possible to try to
provide the security council with a draft agreement reflecting
the main thrust of Rambouillet. Or yet again, the Minister of
Foreign Affairs could take advantage of his visit to Russia on
Friday to push the German peace plan.
As the saying goes, it is best to strike while the iron is hot.
With the new open-mindedness that seems to be developing in the
Yugoslav government, whose deputy prime minister has said that
his government was prepared to accept a peace plan which called
for deployment of a UN force to Kosovo, is the Canadian
government going to have the presence of mind to pass this
proposal on to NATO as well as to the UN security council?
A breach seems to be developing on the diplomatic front. Canada
therefore has a duty to intensify its diplomatic discussions in
order to restore the UN to its rightful place in this conflict.
1520
What is more, with the massive exodus of refugees into the
various humanitarian aid camps, where there was such chaos
initially, coupled with the fact that Albanian gangsters were
diverting donated food supplies, the difficult political
situation in Macedonia and Montenegro, and the logistical
complications in Albania, is the Canadian government going to
carry out a thorough examination of roles and responsibilities,
and of how the work of the humanitarian organizations and the
military ought to be co-ordinated in future?
According to the United Nations High Commissioner on Refugees,
there seems to be a blurring of roles between what is
humanitarian and what is military, since the army is
administering the refugee camps.
Naturally, we must tip our hat and express our gratitude for the
vital help the military has provided in the various refugee
camps.
Military logistics were essential in setting up the various
refugee camps. However, as Jacky Mamou, president of Médecins
du monde, has stated, the organization considers military forces
turned humanitarian unhealthy.
Mr. Mamou is concerned as well about practical organization, and
I quote:
Will there be a NATO co-ordinator? Will they put themselves at
the disposal of the HCR? Whose role it is to protect refugees?
That is the real problem.
And the European commissioner for humanitarian aid, Emma Bonino,
agrees. Here is what she has to say:
The military can help us in an emergency, but we have very
different roles, the management and co-ordination of humanitarian
aid activities must be left to humanitarian agencies.
She too referred to a certain cultural clash between the
employees of humanitarian agencies and the NATO soldiers.
Will Canada, as a member of the United Nations security council,
take the initiative and propose thorough consideration at the UN
and in NATO of the distribution of roles and the co-ordination
of humanitarian aid activities in the event of another conflict
of this size? We must learn from our mistakes and make sure
this confusion does not recur in the future.
Canada could, if it wanted, be a leader in humanitarian aid. Up
to now, in the conflict in Kosovo, Canada has been content to
simply provide troops and aircraft.
Let us hope that the meetings the Minister of Foreign Affairs
has on Thursday and Friday this week with the UN secretary
general and his Russian counterpart will turn Canada into a
credible player on the world diplomatic stage.
[English]
Mr. John McKay (Scarborough East, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it
is a pleasure once again to speak on this topic. I will be
splitting my time with the member for Durham. The last time I
spoke on this subject was at one o'clock in the morning. This is
a far more civilized hour and I hope I am a little more coherent
at this point.
Shortly after speaking in the previous take note debate I was
asked by a reporter what I thought of the debates. I said to him
at the time that I thought parliament was struck with a severe
case of me-tooism. I was not only out of touch with my party's
view on this matter but I was out of touch with other members of
parliament. I thought that the Prime Minister's position had
been vindicated and that he had a working consensus with the
Parliament of Canada to prosecute this war.
However, we do live in a democracy and I will take this
opportunity to pursue my line of dissent in order to push the
edges of the debate.
The essential question here is whether the war in Kosovo can
ever be considered just. I bring the attention of the House to
an article by Marcus Gee in the Globe and Mail who
articulates five essential questions: Is the cause righteous?
Are the intentions good? Was the war declared under proper
authority? Is there a reasonable chance of victory? Are the
means proportionate to the end?
For the purposes of the debate, I am perfectly prepared to
concede that the cause is righteous. Clearly the stated aim of
the prosecution of this war is the protection of Kosovo
Albanians. That is in and of itself a righteous cause.
The second question is, are the intentions are good? It is
pretty obvious that this is not a war of conquest, that this is
not a war of revenge. We do not appear to have any strategic
goals. There is no obvious benefit to any of the NATO members
other than an attempt to bring harmony to this very troubled part
of southeastern Europe. It may even be argued that NATO has been
unselfish in its attempt to bring resolution to ancient conflicts
which have existed in this area of the world for years and years
and which certainly precipitated World War I and arguably also
may have precipitated World War II.
I am prepared to be equally generous in the question that the
intentions were good.
1525
The third question is, was the war declared under a proper
authority? The obvious answer is no. Canada and indeed no other
NATO nation has yet to declare war on the sovereign state of
Yugoslavia. We are bombing a sovereign nation without ever
making a formal declaration of war. It is the first time we have
actually engaged in offensive actions against a sovereign
territory in over 50 years and we have done that without actually
ever having declared war.
We also have not bothered with the niceties of a UN resolution.
I appreciate it may be difficult to obtain a UN resolution either
at the security council or at the general membership level.
However, having said that, it seems to me that we want to work
both sides of the fence. We want to say for some purposes that
we respect the views of the United Nations and we support and
commit ourselves to the United Nations; however, when those views
as expressed through the security council are not to our liking,
then we do our own independent thing.
This is a very significant issue for Canada, in part because we
are such avid UN supporters. Unlike our U.S. ally who considers
the UN to be an irritating irrelevancy, we have been UN boosters.
We have paid our dues on time. We have always signed up for any
peacekeeping initiatives. We articulate our views to the world
through the United Nations.
In ignoring the obtaining of the UN resolution, in large measure
we also ignore the rule of international law. That will have
implications which we have yet to contemplate for us as a nation
and for other nations. It also undermines our commitment to other
international institutions, such as the International Criminal
Court, which we have so assiduously pursued. It appears that
when it works for us, we use it, but when it does not, we ignore
it.
The next question is, is there a reasonable chance of victory? I
suppose we could have been persuaded that the first few days of
bombing would bring Mr. Milosevic to his knees. I would submit
that either that was a gross miscalculation of the resolve of the
citizens of Yugoslavia, or it is a gross miscalculation of Mr.
Milosevic's military muscle, or it is a gross misreading of the
ethnic hatred that literally has been in that country for
hundreds and hundreds of years, or we have been fed a line of
propaganda which changes over time.
Air bombing will not do it. We have control of the air, in fact
we have control of the sea, but the only place where it counts is
on the ground. Interestingly, prior to the Washington summit the
talk was whether we were going to commit ground troops. After
the summit, the talk clearly shifted. It was that we were going
to impose an embargo and that we would occupy the airspace of
other countries.
An embargo certainly has not worked all that well in Iraq. It
has hardly brought Iraq to its knees. As to occupying other
countries' airspace and land, we already use it anyway whether we
have their consent or not.
The final question is, are the means proportionate to the ends?
Some people who have spoken on this issue have talked about the
greatest oxymorons of the 20th century: bombing for peace,
humanitarian hawks, killing to save lives. To state the phrases
is to point out their logical absurdity.
I suggest we look at the victims to date. Prior to the
initiation of the bombing there were about 2,000 dead on both
sides of the conflict, I would say disproportionately skewed to
the Albanians, but there were certainly some dead Serbs as well.
After a month of bombing we certainly have a lot more than 2,000
dead. Indeed, I suppose we have at least 2,000 dead Serbians. We
certainly have a lot more than 2,000 dead Albanians. We have
displaced about 1.5 million out of the 1.8 million Kosovar
Albanians.
Certainly, as the war drags on, the toll will exceed 2,000. The
real question is how many people have to die before this madness
ends? How many victims will have to cry out before sanity
prevails?
Our other speaker and I attended the national prayer breakfast
last week. The speaker at the national prayer breakfast was Kim
Phuc.
Ms. Phuc was the subject of that classic photograph in the
Vietnam war. She was the naked little nine year old girl running
toward the photographer, fleeing the napalm bombing. The napalm
was burning her clothes and the skin off her body.
1530
Ms. Phuc told her story. There was not a dry eye in the house
as she told about her pain and her suffering and her life since
that time.
She is in some respects the quintessential victim of the 20th
century, of an era we consider modern warfare. Now Ms. Phuc is a
Canadian citizen, living in Ajax, a community just east of my
riding.
As I speak to the House I cannot get the image of Kim Phuc out
of my mind. I cannot rationalize this war and have that image in
my mind at the same time.
I have to ask myself if this a just war and if it is based on
good intentions. Is it under proper authority? Does it have a
reasonable chance of success? Are the means we are using
proportionate?
Can members of the House answer these five questions. If in
fact they can answer them then I suppose we should prosecute this
war. If in fact they are troubled by those five questions then I
think we need to address the Kim Phucs of the world.
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I listened with great interest to my hon. colleague's
presentation this afternoon. Obviously he put a lot of thought,
energy and effort into his speech on this issue of such
importance.
I am reminded of our present situation with the no compromise
position, as it was called during Oral Question Period today,
that NATO has taken with regard to the present conflict in the
Balkans. I am reminded of another hard line taken by the allies
in the second world war when they coined the phrase unconditional
surrender.
While I believe very strongly as a student of history that it
was quite appropriate at that time to have a demand of
unconditional surrender by the Axis forces during the second
world war, the very hard line approach being taken by NATO at the
present time is not very conducive to negotiating a peace
settlement.
In light of the comments made by the hon. member across the way,
would he care to elaborate on his speech and on what his thoughts
are about perhaps NATO backing away from its hard line approach
in the hope of achieving a peaceful settlement in the near
future?
Mr. John McKay: Mr. Speaker, like all members of the
House, I presume on a certain level of thoughtfulness and presume
on a certain level of concern about this issue which yields no
ready answers.
I thought at the end of the weekend that in some respects NATO
had stepped back one or two steps from pursuing its goal on a
kind of unconditional basis or on a no compromise position and
that the diplomatic initiatives and the engaging of Russia were
put into a higher level of engagement. I was somewhat comforted
by that process.
I can still see the wagons circling. There is obviously a
military agenda in terms of circling Yugoslavia and not only
bombing it but bringing the embargo into play. I was somewhat
comforted by that.
I am not there. I cannot actually know what is going on, but I
take some comfort in the fact that our Minister of Foreign
Affairs flies off to Russia this week to engage the Russians, who
many people argue are the key to the resolution of this conflict.
1535
Mr. Jim Karygiannis (Scarborough—Agincourt, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I want to share something with my colleague and ask for
his comments. An e-mail came to me today and was addressed to
the scientific community. It read:
Dear Colleagues,
I have to inform you that the threat for the VINCA Institute of
Nuclear Sciences in Belgrade is going to be bombed is now
realistic. As our attitudes and understanding of situations are
different from the ones that politicians have, I am warning the
scientific community of the disaster that would occur if the
VINCA facility (two nuclear reactors, accelerator installation
and ammonia cooling system, isotope production etc.) are hit.
I am sure that you will consider this information very seriously
and I am appealing to you to do as much as you can to prevent
that from happening.
Hoping that soon you will be able to continue your
collaboration, I am sending you my best regards,
Yvanka Bozovic
VINCA Institute of Nuclear Sciences.
This is a nuclear facility in Belgrade. Does my hon. colleague,
who is very close to my riding and shares a lot of my concerns,
have any comments to make in this regard?
Mr. John McKay: Mr. Speaker, the essential presenting
proposition of all NATO nations is that this is a humanitarian
intervention into a situation in another sovereign state to
prevent an ethnic disaster or a genocide, the new world order.
The converse of the new world order is that modern warfare can
visit on populations and on environments disasters that people in
World War I, World War II, the Korean war and even the Vietnam
war could only vaguely understand. We have the ability to create
a situation in Yugoslavia which will literally last for thousands
of years.
My friend points to one possible area where if the facility were
bombed it would last literally thousands of years as the damage
spread over the area.
Mr. Alex Shepherd (Durham, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am
always pleased to follow my colleague from Scarborough East. He
was speaking about the meeting, which I think was last week. Kim
Phuc was there. I agree with his sentiments about the people who
listened to her.
Just to refresh our memories, she is the girl in the classic
picture of a little girl running down the road naked, having just
been struck with napalm in the Vietnam war. I know as she told
her story that all of us were very cognizant of the fact that we
were engaged directly in a campaign of dropping bombs and other
so-called military hardware in the area of Serbia.
I do not think we can ever forget about the realities of war. It
is very nice to be able to sit home and look at it on our
television sets as if it were a strategic, very clean process. I
do not think our television sets tell us about the horror and
suffering of whatever side it is, whether Kosovars or Serbians or
others are involved in this tragic affair.
It is with great reluctance that we deal with the whole issue of
aggression, whether we are aggressive or whether we are trying to
defend a group of people from further aggression among their own
people.
I just came back from Brussels where I attended the
interparliamentary union. This is a group of parliamentarians
from 130 nations around the world. It meets on a biannual basis.
The discussion there was basically about Kosovo.
It was a great opportunity for me. I know the Reform Party does
not like to participate in these things, thinking they are a
waste of time and money, but for me it was a great opportunity to
talk to parliamentarians from that area of the world. The
Yugoslavs were there. The Russian federation was represented, as
were Bulgaria and most of the countries that surround the former
Yugoslavia.
It was interesting to talk to these people about some of the
history of these conquests. I had the opportunity before that to
look at an art museum. I went in and looked at the various
pictures. There was a very tragic picture of a murder, of
somebody stabbing somebody with a knife.
1540
I looked at the bottom of the painting where it read “The War
in Kosovo, 1825”. It tells something about this conflict which
seems to have been going on almost indefinitely. I believe it
started with the penetration of the Ottoman empire into Europe
and the gradual withdrawal and downfall of the Ottoman empire. As
this happened different ethnicities mixed within Europe,
specifically in the areas of the Balkans. The Kosovar people are
basically Muslim while the Serbian population is Christian. This
seems to be the nucleus of the conflict.
Those of us in Canada think this as kind of absurd. The object
of the exercise is that we can all live together in spite of our
cultural differences and religious beliefs, but apparently that
is not so in that part of the world.
Another element that is very much a part of the process is the
whole issue of sovereignty as has been mentioned a few times
today and in other debates. What is the limitation of
sovereignty? The member who spoke before said that he did not
think we had attacked a sovereign country since the second world
war. That is probably the case.
The world population is now changing to the point that it
recognizes there is such a thing as human rights. Human rights
to a certain basic fundamentalist supersede the rights of
sovereign countries and how sovereign countries deal with the
people within those borders.
A Canadian jurist heads up the World Court. It is very
unfortunate that the World Court is not as strong as it should
be. We need to support the World Court process a lot more. If
people like Slobodan Milosevic thought they were involved in this
war, that bombs were going to land on them, or more important
that there was a higher court, a world court that would actually
try Slobodan Milosevic for some of his atrocities, this conflict
could have possibly been nipped in the bud before it got totally
out of control.
We in Canada and our international partners have to be more
judicious in bringing a form of justice throughout the world. We
have to temper our views about sovereignty to the point where we
will not tolerate its entrenchment or overriding of the basic
fundamental human rights we believe in.
It is an oddity that the nations which are the strongest critics
of NATO's actions invariably are countries with their own human
rights problems. It is an odd case where the NATO forces have
got together and basically said it is time to draw a line in the
sand concerning just how far we think a nation can go in ethnic
cleansing, or whatever the case may be, to show that we are not
willing to tolerate it any more.
A regrettable crossing of the line has occurred here. It is
appropriate that we take this kind of action. It is regrettable
because I do not think anybody wins in a war. Nobody wins by the
destruction of assets. Nobody wins by the expenditure of large
amounts of money on military hardware and other things. Everybody
is a basic loser. It is unfortunate that the international
community has let this situation get to the point where we have
to take this action.
On the good intentions of my NDP colleagues who want to address
the need for a diplomatic solution, I do not think there is any
question that Canada, its NATO partners and others in the United
Nations have tried to arrive at a diplomatic solution to the
issue through the former Yugoslavia, from Bosnia to Croatia and
so forth. It does not seem to be in the cards. I do not know
why we do not seem to be able to curb the desire of Mr. Milosevic
to cleanse that country. I know his policy is Serbs for the
Serbians and the way to do that is simply to remove that element
within his population that is not homogeneous.
1545
That is why we cannot let Mr. Milosevic be successful. The
fifth point of this is the one that is bothering everybody, which
is the continuation of some kind of force after the conflict has
been resolved. It is clear we must resettle these people in their
homelands. It will be very expensive because their homes have
been destroyed. Their businesses are gone. It will take
significant amounts of capital. It will not simply be expending
money on the military or peacekeeping forces within the former
Yugoslavia. It will also require capital assets to rebuild
businesses and so forth. It has to be done because there is a
fundamental human point here. We cannot allow ethnic cleansing to
be successful.
When I was in eastern Europe I was surprised when I talked to
people, for instance in Poland. Poland before the war was a
multi-ethnic society. Today it is homogeneous. Mr. Hitler's
policy was successful in Poland. It is a homogeneous ethnic
group. We must not let this be successful in the eyes of the
world.
Furthermore, having the Russians on board is a good idea. When I
got to the conference, the Russians moved a motion condemning
Canada and the NATO forces for their aggression. Mr. Speaker, you
would be surprised to know that none of the countries, in spite
of the fact that they dislike the military conflict going on, not
one country bordering on Yugoslavia supported the motion, other
than Russia itself.
It is regrettable we have had to come this far. We are trying
to find a diplomatic solution to the problem. The Russians are
not nearly as significant a force as some people would like to
believe. Remember that Russia is likely to declare bankruptcy as
a nation this year. It has defaulted on significant amounts of
its government debt. I question how much of an asset it would be
to resolving this matter for us. It is always nice to have
friends on side.
Canada has never said that only a NATO force can occupy the area
but we have to have a force. It has to be armed so that we
ensure this conflict does not start up again and a long term
peacekeeping solution can take place.
To resolve these conflicts will take at least a generation. A
lot of the skills that our armed forces have in the area of
peacekeeping will be very much in demand in that part of the
world. I am happy to be part of a country and part of a
government that supports this humanitarian effort. I can only
hope it ends in success shortly.
Mr. Jim Karygiannis (Scarborough—Agincourt, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I listened with great interest to my hon. colleague talk
about the Ottoman empire, the ethnic cleansing that is happening
today and the ethnic cleansing that has happened over the years.
I am sure he realizes and supports my view that this ethnic
cleansing is not something that is just happening today. It has
happened for the last 700 to 800 years, since the Ottoman empire
was formed and resettlement back and forth of Christians and
Muslims has taken place.
Does my hon. colleague agree with me that we should recognize
that the ethnic cleansing is not only occurring today but it
occurred back in the early 1900s when the Ottoman empire was
falling apart and was disengaging? There was ethnic cleansing at
that time with genocide of the Armenians, the Pontians and so
forth.
Will my hon. colleague support unanimous consent in the House
that we realize that ethnic cleansing did not just take place
today but it occurred in 1914 to 1922 with the Pontians and
Armenians?
Mr. Alex Shepherd: Mr. Speaker, I will not answer the
specifics of that, but the issue of ethnic cleansing, whether it
has been holy wars or whatever the case, has been with humanity
as far back as history books were written. The point is that we
have to move beyond that.
We are approaching the 21st century. Surely we have developed
at least a degree of a civil society that would say this is
ridiculous and it has to to stop and we will not allow people
like Slobodan Milosevic to be successful. He will have to learn
to live with ethnic diversity, just as we do every day in the
House and in our country.
It is something we have to promote.
1550
We must resettle the Kosovars to their original homeland. As far
as I am concerned, every single one of them has to be put back.
We have to set that up as an example for the world and say that
it cannot happen any more.
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to have this opportunity to participate in
debate and dialogue on the war in Kosovo. Unfortunately I did
not have that opportunity during the take note debate on April 12
because the time available was not sufficient to ensure that
every member of parliament who was interested in having a
dialogue on the issue was able to participate.
Some would question why we need another debate. What is the
purpose of today's debate? I can only say to all those
individuals that this is an issue that is consuming Canadians
everywhere across this country. It is an issue that deserves our
utmost attention. It is an issue around which we have to be
consumed and giving of our time and energy.
We are here today with this motion because we know we have to
find a solution, a peaceful solution, a diplomatic solution, a
political solution to a crisis that has gone on far too long. We
are here today because it is day 35. It is now 35 days since
NATO began its air strikes over Yugoslavia. It is 35 days of
seeing images of bombing, of death, of destruction every time we
turn on the TV or open a newspaper.
These images are not just being seen by all of us in this
chamber. Canadians everywhere are experiencing those images and
asking questions. Why? Was there any other way? How long?
Where will it go? What does it mean?
We started grappling with this issue shortly after the bombing
began, when we knew there was no immediate resolution and quick
expedition of an end to this crisis as we were promised and as
was suggested by the government. Shortly after that we all had
to start asking those questions. We had to hold ourselves
accountable to constituents and Canadians everywhere about what
it meant.
Many Canadians at that point were starting to ask if this was
possibly another Vietnam. The news media started commenting on
the possibilities of World War III. Originally I thought that I
was being paranoid, that this cannot be, that it is not reality.
But as the days have progressed, those thoughts have come to
dominate the dialogue in this country.
We know and understand, and I am sure all members in this House
understand, that it is absolutely imperative for us to keep
searching for a peaceful diplomatic resolution of this crisis.
All of us in one way or another are forced to answer the
questions of young children who see the images on TV and wonder
what it means and where it is going. It is getting harder and
harder to answer those questions. It is getting harder and
harder to offer assurances to young children about the hope and
prospect of a peaceful world.
Many today have talked about what we have been hearing and
feeling over the last number of days and weeks. Some have talked
about the images of hundreds of thousands of refugees living in
squalid conditions without any hope of returning to their
homeland.
1555
We have heard others talk about the images of people left
stranded, starving and without hope within Kosovo. We have seen
and heard about the impact of the bombing and all of its
devastation in terms of the economy, the environment and people's
very lives. Over and over again we are taking in this news,
trying to digest it and to figure out what we can do.
The member for Durham suggested that we have tried peaceful
solutions, that there are no peaceful solutions, that we have to
live with what we have got. We are here to say, as we have said
clearly every day since parliament returned on April 12, that
there has to be a peaceful, political and diplomatic solution.
Today there were signs and we received some news that there is a
little bit of progress. The Prime Minister announced today that
Canada would be sending in 800 troops to be part of a
peacekeeping effort in the region.
Mr. Speaker, before I continue, I want to indicate that I am
dividing my time with the member for Sydney—Victoria.
Today there was a little news that we could take some comfort
in. However, at the same time that an announcement was made
about Canada participating in a peacekeeping force in the region,
we heard that the government was as determined as ever to
participate in accelerated and expanded military actions and
activities in the region.
We heard the Prime Minister say today absolutely and
unequivocally that the oil embargo will happen. He said that
notwithstanding the possibility of accelerating the conflict
because of the situation involving Russia. We heard no
suggestion by the Minister of National Defence or anyone else in
the government that they will put a hold on sending more CF-18s
into the region.
At the same time the government talks about putting in
peacekeeping troops and searching for diplomatic solutions, there
is no sign that the government is showing the kind of leadership
on the diplomatic front which is absolutely required. This
motion is here today to say stop accelerating military action and
start accelerating diplomatic alternatives.
There has to be an option. Thirty-five days of death and
destruction and the possibility of the aggression spreading and
of this war continuing for any length of time are enough to make
all of us say that we have to find that diplomatic peaceful
solution. The government has to keep trying to find that
peaceful alternative.
We said as early as March 31 that there had to be reinvigorated
efforts on the part of the government to call for a suspension in
military operations at the same time as calling for Milosevic to
stop the atrocities on the ground. We stood in the House and
called for the government to stand up and show leadership around
the uniting for peace alternative. We are here today to urge the
government to show that leadership at this critical time in this
long and drawn-out conflict.
I want to reflect a concern of my constituents and Canadians
about the future. While we grapple with this situation, while we
are searching, pleading, urging and working toward peaceful
diplomatic solutions to the crisis in Kosovo, we also know it is
not too soon to begin thinking about the future and ensuring that
this never happens again.
I want to mention a quote from Marcus Gee, as did the Liberal
member for Scarborough East.
This is in the context of the kind of dual role the United
Nations is expected to fulfil and the obligation it imposes on
all of us as we go down the path to the future.
1600
Those two roles combine the old idea involving the integrity of
nations with the newer idea involving the integrity of the
individual. Based on that idea, it shows that the UN holds
responsibility for promoting and encouraging respect for human
rights and for fundamental freedoms for all. It is in the
fulfilment of those dual objectives that we must learn lessons
from the Kosovo crisis.
As a parliament, as a country and as a member of the
international community, we must now seek solutions of a
diplomatic, peaceful nature that will ensure that we are able to
address any atrocities against human beings anywhere.
I am faced with questions daily from constituents who say, “Do
we as a country have a double standard? Does NATO have a double
standard? How did we respond as a nation, as an international
community to the Kurds in Turkey? How do we respond to the
situation in East Timor? What is our record on Guatemala?”
Those questions keep coming back to us.
It is imperative that we end that double standard and put all of
our energy and resources into finding a mechanism at the
international level for combining our dual responsibility around
the integrity of nations and the integrity of the individual.
Mr. Peter Mancini (Sydney—Victoria, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
it is a pleasure to follow my hon. colleague after her well
chosen remarks on this particularly sensitive, important and, in
some ways, dark debate that we have to have in the House today.
It is important for us to understand and review the history a
bit. In these kinds of debates and in these critical times, we
sometimes forget where we came from.
A month ago in the House, the government, as a partner with
NATO, recognized that there were atrocities being committed or
about to be committed in Kosovo. The government and the country,
as a partner in NATO, felt that we had an obligation as the peace
talks in France fell apart to do what we could to protect the
ethnic Albanians in Yugoslavia.
There was no question that there was mounting evidence that
those people were in a dangerous situation. We know the history
of the Balkans and we know that there is an unsettled political
situation there. We also know that there is, as in many parts of
the world tragically, ancient grudges and ancient hatreds.
To that end, with all party support, the government through NATO
participated in a bombing campaign. No one, I submit, believed a
month ago that we would still be bombing Serbia today. That is
not to be critical of anyone. I do not think the parties in the
House who supported the government in its resolution believed
that 30 days from that date we would still be bombing those
cities.
No one thought that NATO would move outside the selected bombing
targets which we thought, and I think everyone concurred, would
be military targets. No one thought that 31 days after the
bombing began, instead of bombing military targets we would be
bombing the president's home, rightly or wrongly. No one
believed we would be bombing television stations. No one
believed we would bomb every single bridge across the Danube
River. No one thought that we would collectively wreak the kind
of destruction that has happened in the last 31 days. No one in
any of the NATO countries—so as not to be overly critical
here—and I think no one in the House foresaw the immense tragedy
that would result in the movement of the ethnic Albanians across
the border in such mass numbers, or the slaughter that would take
place in their communities.
1605
The evidence of that is in the simple fact that the
international community was unprepared to help the refugees. It
is a testament to the United Nations Refugee Commissioner that we
have since been able to contain some of the tragedy.
However, for the first week across this country and across the
world people were asking “What are we going to do about the
refugees crossing the border”. I think there is evidence that
no participating member of NATO, including Canada and the members
of the House, foresaw the kind of long term campaign that has
been ongoing.
Time began to change things a little bit and positions began to
change. I am proud to say that in this party when Kofi Annan, the
Secretary General of the United Nations, laid down what he
thought would be five conditions that might bring the parties
back to the table, this party urged the government to respect the
historic position of Canada as a peacemaker, as a peace invoker
and as a diplomat in the world.
We urged the government to go further than that and to say
“Look, perhaps we can even drop those demands. Perhaps we can
even weaken those a little bit to bring Milosevic to the table.
Perhaps if we say, stop the atrocities that are taking place on
the ground and come to the negotiating table, then perhaps NATO
could stop bombing”. We pressured the government in that
direction, all the while maintaining our support because it is
important for this sovereign nation to work with the support of
the House. The Prime Minister alluded to that today.
However, I think we have to measure the changes in the
international climate against a tone that I get uncomfortable
with in the House. Sometimes when I hear us talking, I think of
us as siblings in the family of man saying we have a problem with
another of our siblings. Today, there is a paternalistic tone
entering the debate where we say that we will ensure that things
happen in Kosovo, that we will ensure that our rules, our demands
and our five conditions are met. That is not the historic role
of this country. The historic role has been to brokerage between
peoples and nations who have those paternalistic attitudes.
We have to stop and examine the history regularly in the debates
in the House to ensure that we are proceeding on a direct course
to where we wanted to go in the first place, which was to ensure
that the humanitarian crisis in Kosovo was met. Whether that
meant assisting in the creation of an independent Kosovar state,
whether it meant peacekeeping forces as a buffer, whatever it
was, that was our goal. It was not to bring Milosevic to his
knees. It was not to wreck the Serbian economy. It was to
ensure that the Kosovars, the ethnic Albanians, could live in
some peace in their homeland.
Rigorously and every day, we in this party have fulfilled our
obligation under the Constitution of Canada. Under our
parliamentary obligation and responsibility, we have suggested
alternative measures to the government. We pursued vigorously in
question period, in debate and in all-night debates in the House
various other options that the government might pursue. Those
included ensuring that the United Nations play a significant role
in the peace negotiations in this international crisis.
It is not now and has never been the role of NATO to usurp the
United Nations as a governing world body. We must be clear on
that. Granted, NATO had to act in this situation because the UN
was in some ways paralyzed and we could not afford to turn a
blind eye and say that because of bureaucratic situations we
simply could not act. Let us be clear when we talk about
peacekeeping forces. Let us be clear as we move toward the
negotiating table that it is the United Nations and not NATO that
is the international force that all countries respect. This party
pushed and encouraged the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the
Prime Minister to bring that message to the NATO table.
I am pleased to say that over the weekend we have seen, I hope,
some significant results because of that kind of pressure. Canada
should be proud that it has been singled out in NATO as the
country to try and talk to the Russians, who play a crucial role
in this debate.
1610
Canada is now pursuing two aspects. We are still fully
participating with NATO, but we are aggressively pursuing a
diplomatic effort.
We introduced this motion today because we are now caught in a
strange case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Canada has a kind of
potion that we drink. On the one hand, we are telling Russia
that we are the country that can help bring peace, and on the
other hand, we are laying down conditions that can impede that
very progress by saying that we will support an embargo, which
Russia has adamantly refused to recognize. We are saying that we
want to bring peace to Serbia, but at the same time we are saying
we will supply more planes if we have to, to continue bombing the
very people we want to come to the negotiating table.
In the last minute that I have, I want to review the resolution
that my party has proudly brought into the House of Commons, and
that is that we call on the government to intensify and
accelerate efforts to find a diplomatic solution. That is our
history and that is who we are.
There are nations that are very good at making war. We are not
one of them. There are nations that are very good at bringing
about peace. We are one of those.
We urge the government to accelerate and find a diplomatic
solution to the crisis in Kosovo through the involvement of
Russia, which everyone recognizes has to be a key player in this,
and the United Nations, the governing world body. As signatories
to the convention on Human rights, we have a role to play.
Surely we cannot ignore the very body that we look to, to enforce
that.
We are asking the government to ensure the involvement of Russia
and the United Nations to urge NATO not to impose a naval
blockade or take any other actions that expand the conflict and
stand in the way of a diplomatic resolution. That is our motion.
That is our role as a nation.
Mr. Jim Karygiannis (Scarborough—Agincourt, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have listened to my colleague from the New Democratic
Party with great interest. He made some interesting comments.
I was just wondering if he could make something clear to me. Is
he asking that NATO stops bombing or is he asking that NATO
continues bombing? Does the motion that his party brought
forward today support stopping the bombing of Yugoslavia?
Mr. Peter Mancini: Mr. Speaker, we are saying that at
this point we stand by our support of the government in its
initial phase, and we understand that includes bombing.
However, we are very hesitant to support any further
acceleration of military activity. I think the hon. member knows
what I mean by that. That is why it is included in the
resolution. We have very real concerns about the imposition of a
naval blockade that can only accelerate hostilities among the
very people that we are trying to bring to the table.
We have very real concerns about bringing in more Canadian
troops. The Prime Minister talked about 800 troops today being
ready to go to Kosovo. We assume that is in a peacekeeping role,
but we view that with very grave concern.
I know that the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Prime Minister
and the hon. member who asked the question, do not take the
support of the other parties in the House for granted, but that
support is always contingent upon the absolute diligent pursuit
of diplomatic efforts. Movements that will accelerate
hostilities will not help bring about the diplomatic solution
that Canada so desperately wants.
We are saying at this point that we will continue to support the
government and our initial commitment to NATO. We also
understand that means bombing today, but it does not mean
increasing planes and setting up blockades that will lead to
further hostilities.
Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for
Mississauga West.
Earlier in this debate, the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle
recounted how he visited Biafra during the Biafran war in the
late 1960s.
He told of the horrors of seeing the people starving and the
people suffering in Biafra, and just generally the horrors of
war.
1615
There is another side to that equation because at the time of
the Biafran conflict I was in Britain at Leeds university doing
post-graduate work. I chummed around with two other young men of
my age, in their mid-twenties. One was a Jewish fellow from
London and the other was a fellow by the name of Bennett
Okuwosa. When I first met Bennett he was a Nigerian. When I
last met him at the end of my two year term he was a Biafran.
The relevance of the three of us and my friend being Jewish is
that in the two year period that I knew these two young men both
the six day war occurred in Israel and the Biafran war broke out
in Nigeria. One young man was, shall we say, on the side of the
winners and the other young man, my friend Bennett Okuwosa, was
on the side of the losers.
Before these tragic events came about we were very much the
three musketeers. We used to shoot pool together and drink beer
together and go to dances and sometimes we studied and, though we
came from very diverse backgrounds, we had as much in common as
young men around the world would have in common.
But then my friend, who we used to call Bennett, confronted the
problem of the Biafran war. What happened there was another case
of ethnic cleansing. The Biafrans had spread out of Biafra,
which is a province of Nigeria, into the rest of Nigeria and had
taken over many of the positions of responsibility in the
Nigerian economy and political society. This created a great
deal of resentment among the Muslim population.
Biafra was a classic situation, as so often occurs, where
religious strife breaks out which is really only a guise for
economic competition and economic resentment. So it was in
Nigeria. The Biafrans were expelled from all positions and were
basically driven out of all of Nigeria and back into Biafra. In
Biafra they decided that they would form a break-away state,
which led to the Biafran civil war and all its horrors.
Communications stopped with Biafra basically. My friend Benno
had a very large family. He endured the time when his brothers,
who had various positions of authority, were picked up by the
Nigerian police and disappeared. Of course, throughout the
Biafran war he had to endure the knowledge that his people were
suffering terribly.
Ironically, his contribution to the war, because he was in the
agricultural sciences, was to try to raise rabbits for Biafra
because, of course, there was a terrible shortage of protein and
terrible starvation in his home country. In the end, I do not
think he ever went back. The last I heard of him was a letter
from Berlin. I think he settled in Germany in the end and raised
his family there.
I will jump from that to events of just a week ago Monday. I
held an open town hall meeting in my riding to which I invited
everyone to come and express their feelings on Kosovo. My
particular riding, Wentworth—Burlington, and the whole area
around there has a very high percentage of Serbian Canadians. We
had an open meeting and it was a very emotional event because,
while one might have expected much anger, in fact there was much
anguish, much hurt.
I held the meeting because I wanted to give the opportunity for
the Serbian Canadians to come and express their feelings because
this is a democratic country. Although there were some remarks
on the causes of the war and the fact that the ethnic Albanians
had taken over society and Kosovo and all of that kind of thing,
and many of them were there illegally, those arguments did not
ring with as much weight as the terrible anguish that these
Serbian Canadians had, not only for their kinfolk, but for what
was happening in Kosovo, in the former Yugoslavia. Or in
Yugoslavia, I suppose it is called still.
For instance, one man asked me “What will happen if Canada
actually declares war on Serbia? Will it mean that I will be
interned?” Another woman worried about her son in the Canadian
forces. What is going to happen if he is sent over in a combat
contingent and winds up in combat with his kin?
One can imagine the situation.
1620
Many people were worried about the young people of military age
who had left the country a few months before the actual bombing
started. They knew that their children would be called up.
Indeed the call is now for anyone of 14 years of age or over to
join the military forces in Serbia to combat the invasion. One
can imagine the terrible fear.
These were my fellow Canadians suffering. They were hurting and
they were hurting because of what was happening in the homeland
that they had left. There is no doubt that they are Canadians
now, but they still have strong ties to where they come from.
When thought of that way we have to realize that this is not
just a matter of stopping the bombing and coming to a diplomatic
solution. This is not a matter of partitioning Kosovo or making
it independent. This is a matter of making sure that as we lead
up to a settlement of this conflict we leave the door open for
forgiveness so that Kosovars and Serbians can live together once
more.
I think that Canada has an indirect role to play in this because
we are the classic example of a country with all kinds of ethnic
diversity and of people who come from conflicts in other parts of
the world who can live together.
To this end I think it is very important on the part of the
government and on the part of all of us to make sure that we are
very careful in the distinctions we make when we talk about what
is happening in Kosovo. Biafra was a clear case of ethnic
cleansing. The Biafrans were driven out of the rest of Nigeria
because they were Christians and the others were Muslims,
although I say to members that religion was only an excuse. In
1915 in the former Ottoman empire I believe that the Armenians
were driven out of Turkey primarily because Turkey was at war.
This was another case of ethnic cleansing. But these are not
necessarily cases of genocide. Genocide is probably the ultimate
horror and the Holocaust was genocide. It was not just a matter
of ethnic cleansing but a matter of destroying the very ethnic
memory by killing everybody.
Almost every nation in the world has been guilty of ethnic
cleansing at one time or another. I will give an example of our
own Canadian experience in the 18th century with the Acadians.
The British expelled all the young Acadian men from Nova Scotia
and distributed them down the shores of the American seacoast.
The Boer War began in the 19th century. The British were at war
with the Boer farmers in South Africa. Women and children of the
farmers were rounded up and put in concentration camps where they
died and had terrible experiences. If we want to go back to a
case of genocide we can go back to the American west. Here the
American authorities systematically destroyed the food supply of
the aboriginals, resulting in their death. We could go to the
Ukraine between the wars and we will find Stalin who
systematically destroyed the food supply of the Ukrainians. This
is genocide.
Genocide is a terrible word, but when it comes to civil war, and
the expulsion of an ethnic population, almost every nation in the
world has been guilty of it to some degree or another. We have
to bear in mind that we have to make these distinctions. If we
do not make these distinctions, the people I saw at my town hall
meeting will feel that they are branded with a guilt, with a
stain, which they do not deserve any more than the Americans, the
British, the French or anyone else who has been in colonial
power who has engaged in some kind of civil war or repression,
however terrible. Some kind of repression is involved in the
expulsion of an ethnic, religious or racial group. We have to
make those distinctions very clear.
We have to think now in terms of how we are going to find a way
to bring the Serbian community, the Serbs and the Kosovars back
together. I believe this is the country that can lead by
example. As long as we as members of parliament, and we as
Canadians everywhere are prepared to go out into our communities
and listen to one another, no matter what our backgrounds, our
religions or our languages, we set an example that hopefully can
be followed after this war.
1625
[Translation]
Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien (Frontenac—Mégantic, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I
listened with great interest to the hon. member for
Wentworth—Burlington, and I must even admit that I was touched by
his comments. I was touched when he talked about his days as a
student in London with two former colleagues, one a Jew and the
other a Biafran.
However, he digressed quite a bit from the NDP motion calling on
the government to intensify and accelerate efforts to find a
diplomatic solution to the crisis in Kosovo—if we do not want,
at this point, to talk about a war—and to involve Russia.
I want to ask the hon. member if he personally intervened in the
Liberal caucus. If so, what proposal did he make to bring the
Prime Minister, the Minister of National Defence and the
Minister of Foreign Affairs—who, incidentally, is leaving this
evening to meet his Russian counterpart—to find a diplomatic
solution? What personal action did the hon. member take to
convince his government to try to find a diplomatic solution?
We have lost a great deal of our ability to act as peacekeepers,
because in this union with NATO, Canada is acting just like the
United States and the other countries by sending aircraft that
are not there to maintain peace but to strike and destroy.
Did the hon. member for Wentworth—Burlington act in a positive
way within his caucus?
[English]
Mr. John Bryden: Absolutely, Mr. Speaker. I will on a
very rare occasion break caucus secrecy. In fact, at the last
national caucus I did rise and go to the microphone, in front of
the Prime Minister, the Minister of Foreign Affairs and all of my
colleagues, and I urged them very strongly to look to Russia to
help us out of this impasse that is occurring in the Balkans.
One of the golden opportunities that is presented here is that
Russia can become involved. If Russia can be part of the peace
plan, then it will help Russia feel a restoration of confidence
of its important role in the world.
I talked about countries and peoples hurting, and we have to
realize that the Russians are hurting now as well. They are not
hurting just economically; they are hurting because the end of
the century has been hard on them. We have to give them the
opportunity to find their dignity. They can find their dignity
by taking an important role in bringing peace to this region.
That is what I said in national caucus last Wednesday.
[Translation]
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Mr. Speaker, first
of all, I would like to tell the hon. member that these
distinctions between ethnic cleansing and genocide are perhaps
helpful, but I still marvel at his description of the Armenian
situation the other day in the House. I would like him to tell
us whether or not he feels that a genocide took place in Armenia
at the beginning of the century.
My question, however, has to do with the UN's role. Since he is
willing to talk about what went on in his caucus, could he tell
us to what extent the UN's role was discussed? What is his
personal position on the importance of involving the UN in any
resolution of this conflict in Yugoslavia?
[English]
Mr. John Bryden: Mr. Speaker, I can only talk about what
I said. I cannot talk about what others said.
I would like to pick up on the ethnic cleansing. It is so very
important to make the distinction between ethnic cleansing and
genocide.
It is very difficult to forgive genocide under any circumstances.
1630
Because so many nations historically, going back to the ages of
the Greeks and the Romans and even before, have been guilty of
one form of ethnic cleansing or another, after the war the
Serbians, Serbian Canadians and Kosovars can at least appreciate
that nothing has happened in Kosovo, however horrible, that is
any different than what has been going on in nations and
societies across the world since the beginning of recorded
history.
It is when we apply too big an epithet that we make it almost
impossible for the people to communicate after the war. Then we
entrench hate. There is enough hate in the Balkans. We have to
find a way to get people to stop hating one another.
Mr. Steve Mahoney (Mississauga West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I will refer to the last comment about getting people to stop
hating. I heard Henry Kissinger, I think it was, say that was
probably not a possible scenario in these parts of the Balkans.
Hate is deeply ingrained in the souls, hearts and minds of the
people in that region. I wish it were so that by holding up
Canadian values or values which we hold dear we could communicate
in some way that they should stop hating. I wish it were that
easy but I fear it is not.
I congratulate the member for Halifax and the New Democratic
Party for putting forward what I frankly consider to be a
responsible position in a responsible use of an opposition day.
We have had scenes in this place where motions have been put
forward that frankly would be seen as nothing more than
grandstanding for the purpose of perhaps espousing certain
philosophical viewpoints or somehow trying to embarrass the
government. I do not think the motion does that at all.
The motion states that the government should intensify and
accelerate efforts to find a diplomatic solution. Who among us
would not want that to happen? Who among the population of this
great country would not want that to happen?
The mission being undertaken by the minister later this week,
with meetings being set up in Russia and meetings with the
Secretary General of the United Nations, is an effort to do
exactly that, to find a way to answer a question I have some
difficulty answering when constituents call me: How did this
happen?
We have to look at history to find out how and why this has
happened and why we are debating it today. It is responsible of
an opposition party to suggest that the government should
increase efforts to find a diplomatic solution. I agree with them
that it should happen. I also think it is responsible for us to
urge NATO not to accelerate the campaign beyond what is currently
going on in an effort to try to find a diplomatic solution.
Having said that, we cannot stick our heads in the sand. I was
very interested to hear my colleague from Hamilton—Wentworth say
that he had held a town hall meeting. I wondered what it would
be like to have a town hall meeting in Kosovo. I wondered how
people who have been driven out of their homes and who have
watched their fathers, their husbands and their sons assassinated
in front of them would feel about participating in a town hall
meeting. This is not media hype; we have heard testimony from
refugees who have stood by and watched their mothers and their
daughters raped in front of their families.
I think they would be so shocked at the democratic process which
my colleague held in his riding that they would not know what to
say. They could not imagine describing the horror and the pain.
While we strive to find diplomatic and peaceful solutions, we
have to take a look at why we are in this position in the first
place.
1635
In 1949 former Prime Minister Lester Pearson, whom I think all
Canadians and members of this place would consider one of the
great men of this century, won a Nobel prize. He signed an
agreement with 11 other countries to form an alliance called the
North Atlantic Treaty Organization. That membership has expanded
to 19.
What was the purpose? Was it just some kind of window dressing
following the war, that we should all get together once a year
and have a barbecue or something like that? I do not think so.
These were 12 and now 19 countries that recognized a number of
different threats existed in the world. The most obvious would
have been the spread of communism in 1949. We saw what happened
with the wall. We saw it go up. We saw it come down. We saw a
country divided. We saw what happened economically and
philosophically, or from any aspect of society we want to look
at, to a country that could have been, should have been, might
have been and might still be again a great country, Russia.
This may be a bias but I happen to think it is one we all
believe in, the bias of democracy. This is a people who have
been put in a terrible position because of the spread of
communism and because of the militaristic attitude that occurred
in that country. They wound up in a destitute situation. NATO
was formed to monitor the spread of communism.
Tito was in charge in Yugoslavia and the army was there. I
witnessed firsthand in 1990 when I was part of a parliamentary
delegation as a member of the provincial legislature the first
free elections in Croatia since the end of the second world war.
Yet there were still armed soldiers standing over the ballot
boxes intimidating the people as they came in. They stood there
and did not move.
I remember how incredulous some of the Croatian people were when
I went up to the armed soldiers and put a Canadian pin on their
lapel. They were quite astounded that I would do that. Thinking
back I was a little nuts to do it. In any event I was being
friendly and extending a friendly hand to those people. We could
see tears in the eyes of the Croatian people as they lined down
the street to vote for the first time since the war. It was
truly one of the most amazing and moving political opportunities
that I have experienced.
Like most of us in this place I am really rather spoiled. Think
of where we live. Think of the fact that I have often said in
this place that our weapons are hopefully our minds. Our
ammunition are the words that we hurl at one another. We do not
kill one another. Hopefully we do not. There may be days when
some would feel that way but generally speaking we are not a
violent people.
Yet we see what is happening and we a partaking in what can
amount to nothing other than a military action, or call it
whatever we want. It is war against a regime. I do not consider
this a war against the Serbian people as a nation. Although I
have to openly admit obviously Serbs will be injured and killed
in this exercise. That is a terrible tragedy, but we cannot sit
back and do nothing.
I wonder what the Canadian people would say if Canada, a
participant in NATO for the last 50 years, was to step back and
say that we will not be involved in this situation; we were there
for the good times and liked the conferences, but we will not
participate in this action. I do not see how we could in any
moral conscience take a position that we would not participate.
I pray and hope, as do all Canadians and members of the House,
that what we have seen today will not escalate into the use of
our soldiers in active combat. It may yet happen, but we hope it
will not. They are there. They are being positioned to go in to
implement a peace settlement. I hope that our minister and our
Prime Minister can meet with the Russians and do what the NDP is
talking about and what we would all like to see, to see if Russia
can implement a peace settlement with this regime to end the
fighting and the killing.
1640
Then our people could do what they have been trained to do, that
is keep a sustaining peace in that part of the world and help the
Kosovars readjust, go back in and rebuild their lives. I know we
all pray for that, and hopefully we will see it in the not too
distant future.
[Translation]
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I
would like to ask our eloquent colleague whether he could answer
the question I asked the member who spoke before him regarding
the role of the UN and what was said about this role during
their caucus meetings, or what their supporters say at public
meetings.
How important does he think the UN's participation is in any
solution and what does he think should be the relationship
between the UN and NATO in resolving the conflict in Kosovo?
[English]
Mr. Steve Mahoney: Mr. Speaker, the UN should be
involved. As a result of the meetings our minister will be
having in Russia and with the UN secretary general, I hope we
will be able to bring them in.
We have to be realistic as well and realize that NATO serves a
very specific role that is somewhat different from that of the
United Nations. The theatre for the United Nations is the entire
world. That is not true with NATO. The theatre for NATO is
Europe and the Americas. It is not Asia, Africa or the Middle
East.
If NATO could come in, and China and Russian were prepared to
come in and co-operate in negotiating a peace settlement, that
would be entirely appropriate. Hopefully the movement by our
minister to go there and meet with them will see that happen.
It would more appropriate, if it is possible, to have NATO
forces enforcing a peace settlement. However we have to get a
peace settlement first. As long as Russia stays on the outside
and is not prepared to come in to the negotiations, I fear the UN
is marginalizing itself because of one or two of its members.
Hopefully we can see some serious involvement by the United
Nations over coming weeks.
Mr. Jim Karygiannis (Scarborough—Agincourt, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I would like my hon. friend to make one or two comments
regarding not what is happening in Serbia or in Belgrade but what
we are doing to our own population.
I bring to his attention the plight of a mother and a father,
Zorka and Milan Lavrnja who visited Canadian immigration at
Bucharest. Their son was applying to immigrate to Canada. They
are Canadian citizens; they hold Canadian passports. They went
into the embassy and were told: “You are Serbian Canadians. We
do not want to look after you”.
Are we in the House fostering better relations and better
communications within our own communities? What happens when a
Canadian official overseas, such as the embassy in Bucharest,
says that to a Canadian citizen? Could my colleague from
Mississauga give his reaction to exactly what we are doing to our
Canadian citizens if they are of Serbian background?
Mr. Steve Mahoney: Mr. Speaker, if anybody in the
employment of this country were to make a statement like that,
and it could be proven, he or she should be fired. It is plain
and simple.
[Translation]
Mr. Daniel Turp: Mr. Speaker, I have another question for the
hon. member, who seems to take a great interest in NATO's role
in this conflict.
Today, the American defence secretary, William Cohen, said that
the international military force should be NATO-led. What does
the Liberal member think?
1645
[English]
Mr. Steve Mahoney: Mr. Speaker, I know there is an
attempt by some to somehow demonize the role of the Americans in
this conflict. Let me simply say that NATO has a constitution
and a mandate. In that mandate it is very clear that the
responsibility of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization is that
it is one for all and all for one if a member is attacked.
The fact that the Americans happen to be the largest and perhaps
the most dominant player because of their economic clout and
their military clout I think is a given. The role that Canada
can play and should play is being rightly played out on the
international scene by our Minister of National Defence and our
Minister of Foreign Affairs in trying to do exactly what this
motion is calling for; that is, trying to find a peaceful
solution and working with Russia, which can indeed be a catalyst
in finding a solution.
It would seem to me that while the Americans would have little
if any influence over Mr. Milosevic, the Russians do have some
influence. We know that the Russian military has provided arms
and weaponry to the Serbian military over the years. That is
fine. That is a legitimate arrangement, a commercial contract.
We know that they have a relationship.
Rather than trying to demonize the Americans and turning this
into either a partisan issue or some kind of conflicting
issue—and if the hon. member did not mean that I apologize, but
that is how I interpreted it—I think our role as the Canadian
government is to work alongside the Americans as a partner in
NATO and to try to find a solution by our meeting with Russia and
the United Nations.
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): It is my duty, pursuant to
Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be
raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the
Hon. member for Vancouver East, Housing; the Hon. member for
Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, International Trade.
[English]
Mr. Norman Doyle (St. John's East, PC): Mr. Speaker,
first let me indicate that I will be sharing my time with the
hon. member for South Shore.
As immigration critic for the PC party, I want to make a few
comments and remarks on the human tragedy that is Kosovo. Every
day on television we see a tide of Kosovar Albanians fleeing to
refuge outside their homeland, leaving behind their burning
villages, leaving behind their friends and relatives who have
been spirited away or even executed by the Serbian security
forces.
Over the past number of years we have seen similar scenes in
Croatia and in Bosnia, but the sheer speed and magnitude of the
current exodus has riveted the world's attention.
Today's motion talks of a possible diplomatic solution to that
crisis. I think it is safe to say that our party would support
the motion. It is a very good motion indeed and I sincerely hope
that it is possible. In the meantime, I would like to comment on
two aspects of the crisis, the refugee situation and the military
situation.
With regard to the Kosovar refugees, we are very pleased that
Canada went on record as willing to accept and made preparations
to take in about 5,000 of these unfortunate people. As a nation
whose involvement is driven by humanitarian concerns we could do
no less.
The other situation about which we are concerned is our military
position in all of this. It is indeed regrettable that we did
not debate this matter before our air force was committed to
fight. The bottom line now is that we are embroiled in a
military conflict overseas. Many military experts feel that this
will inevitably lead to the involvement of our ground troops as
well.
Our party is concerned about the way we seem to have become
involved in this conflict without a long term view of the
consequences. I know that war has not been formally declared,
but people are shooting and people are being shot.
1650
I need not remind the House that this region of Europe tied down
many Nazi divisions during World War II, in a grinding war of
attrition, with terrible atrocities committed on all sides.
We have already seen examples of how ethnic cleansing in Croatia
and Bosnia came about, with enough blame and enough blood to go
around for everyone involved.
We all have every confidence in the professionalism of our armed
forces, but I fear that the government has presided over our
military being reduced in numbers. As well, it is sadly lacking
in the equipment to do the kind of job that we will probably be
called upon to do.
We cannot play at war. NATO is now committed. It has very
little choice but to follow through on those commitments. In
Vietnam, for instance, we saw what it was like to fight a war
wherein the daily targets were decided in the White House and not
in the Pentagon. The result was a war that dragged on for years.
No matter if we call this a conflict or a war, we had best be
clear about our objectives and have the will to do what is
necessary.
We cannot forget that the Yugoslav leadership will be ruthless
in the use of their military and paramilitary forces, so we must
not send our soldiers and airmen into harm's way with one arm
tied behind their backs.
It is sad that Canada, once a leader in world affairs, a
champion of United Nations peacekeeping, is now caught up in this
conflict. However, the die has now been cast and we had best get
very, very serious about our diplomatic, our humanitarian and our
military roles in Kosovo.
The Canadian nation has the stature and the reputation to
influence events, as it did in the gulf war and more recently in
Croatia. However, those events took place when Canada had will
as well as stature. There is no evidence that this government is
able to supply that level of leadership. From what we have
learned of NATO discussions, other members decided to launch an
air war and Canada merely decided to go along.
According to the Prime Minister, if others decide that ground
troops are necessary Canada will not be the one to say no. That
is not a muscular foreign policy. It is no foreign policy at
all. The announcement that we are sending 800 peacekeeping
ground troops to the region is another escalation of our
involvement. Our possible involvement in a naval blockade also
complicates our situation, especially if the Yugoslavian navy
decides to fight back.
In the meantime, we can take a number of steps to try to
reassert our leadership with regard to the Kosovo situation. The
first is to work seriously with Russia, which is the only power
with open lines to the Serbian leadership. We must not forget
that internal forces in Russia are pushing it to become involved
as well. No other nation is better placed than Canada to help
Russia find a constructive role, yet we have no evidence that
Canada has actively played a role in that regard.
It is a good sign that the Minister of Foreign Affairs will now
go to Moscow, but does he have specific proposals to make, say,
on the proposed naval blockade or on a UN resolution on the type
of international security force that would allow refugees to
return home in safety?
Second, Canada is a member of most of the international
organizations which will be involved in developing the political
settlement in Kosovo when the war is over. We should be at work
now on humanitarian and reconstruction issues and on security
issues as well. Once this conflict is over our aim must be to
have a southern Europe that is a more stable place than it was
before this conflict started.
Third, the government should be clear about ground troops. It
has not yet been clear on that issue. Short of a diplomatic
solution, it seems to me that ground troops will be necessary to
finish what has already been started by air attacks. The Prime
Minister, however, has been coy on that issue and this undermines
confidence in Canada's position on the issue.
1655
Finally, the Government of Canada should lead the way in dealing
honestly with the public and the parliaments of NATO countries.
This is likely to be a long conflict, with unsettling images and
unsettling news. It began with significant public support
because the issue was seen as a humanitarian issue. However,
once there is killing on both sides questions will be raised
about NATO's strategy, especially with respect to ground troops.
There is a difference between support for humanitarian goals and
support for NATO's strategy.
The best road to public confidence is openness, clearness and
truth. The Canadian people are a good people and they deserve
good leadership in this crisis, better leadership than we have
seen so far. It is time for government to hold parliamentary
debates on these matters before our troops are put in harm's way.
It is time for government to make clear our objectives and our
ways and means of carrying out the various roles that we will
have in this escalating conflict. In short, we should discuss
our duty, define our duty and fulfill our duty with all of the
determination and pride which have served us well in crises past.
In relation to today's motion, I would certainly support
continued and vigorous diplomatic activity on Canada's part. I
also think it is crucial that Russia, a long time Serbian ally,
be involved in finding an end to this conflict. However, any
solution must involve the refugees being allowed to return home
under the protection of an international and, hopefully, a United
Nations peacekeeping force.
Kosovo is burning. Parts of Serbia are in ruins. NATO cannot
walk away from what it has started. However, at the same time,
no country is eager to get involved in a protracted ground war.
Therefore, I am sure that all NATO countries would welcome a
reasonable solution that would end the fighting and restore the
refugees to their homes and to their homeland.
Mr. Jim Karygiannis (Scarborough—Agincourt, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I listened with great interest to what my hon. friend
across the way had to say. On one side he said that ground
troops are unavoidable and we have to send them in. On the other
side he said that the United Nations may be an international
peacekeeping force. I am a little confused as to whether or not
he is supporting ground troops. I am confused as to whether the
hon. member is suggesting to the House that we should send in
ground troops at this stage of the game when there have been 35
days of bombing with no result. We do not see Milosevic backing
away. We have heard the Yugoslav deputy prime minister, who is
from the opposition party, saying that we need to do something.
My colleague across the way says that we are in a war. He is a
little ignorant about the history of that part of the world. He
should study it.
I would ask him to first open his book, learn what has been done
in that part of the world and then come to the House and try to
tell members what the government should do. Sending ground
troops over there will result in body bags coming home. I am
just wondering if the hon. member across the way wants to
volunteer the first body bag that comes back.
Mr. Norman Doyle: Mr. Speaker, I should make it clear
that I do not think the member was involved with me in that
debate, but somebody else.
First of all, let me say that we support our role in NATO. We
are one of 19 member nations of NATO and we support the bombing
campaign that is currently going on. We support our eventual
involvement in sending in ground troops, should that be
necessary. Obviously we would first support diplomatic efforts
being made by this government to ensure that we do not have to
involve our soldiers in a ground troop force.
However, I think it is very important indeed that the government
lay out what its objectives are with regard to this war. What is
the long term view of the consequences involved? What is our
strategy, for example, in participating in a naval blockade
should the Yugoslavian navy decide to fight back? These are
questions to which we have not received answers.
1700
As I pointed out to the hon. member, there is a difference
between support for humanitarian goals and support for NATO's
strategy, but I think this government is sadly lacking in
leadership. It has not yet laid out its long term views and
objectives regarding this war and what our strategy would be
should ground troops become necessary. When the time comes, we
will support ground troops if there is no other alternative.
Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Mr. Speaker, I am
tempted to get into the questions and comments part of the
earlier debate but I will stick to the speech I very carefully
wrote out. I hope the parliamentarians in this room will have
some intelligent questions to ask at the end of it.
Yesterday Prime Minister Tony Blair addressed the British
parliament for one and one-half hours and during that time took
questions from British MPs on Britain's role in Yugoslavia. Today
the Prime Minister of Canada had a press conference to inform
Canadians and Canadian parliamentarians that we would be sending
peacekeepers to the Balkans. Canadians should reflect for a few
moments on that comparison, a one and one-half hour information
session versus a press meeting.
This government has deliberately left parliament out of the
briefing process and has not been forthwith and open to
parliamentarians. At least today the Prime Minister has made
some attempt to correct that imbalance. I commend this Liberal
change of tact because it puts the government in a position where
it is more responsible for its actions.
There are many questions that must be raised over this
government's handling of this critical issue. It is time the
Prime Minister clearly defined Canada's objective in this
campaign and more important the role we have occupied in NATO,
and the Prime Minister's involvement and interaction with our
NATO allies. The question begs to be asked as to what has
happened to Canada's former leadership in these areas. I would
submit that Canada is not only not being listened to by its NATO
allies but worse yet, is following blindly.
Canada's objectives are not clear. Our strategy is not clear.
And now by the looks of things, this Prime Minister is sending
our soldiers into battle with no clear concise objective and no
strategy to accomplish this vague goal. Surely the Prime
Minister is finally going to be held responsible for such ill
conceived and blatantly anti-military decisions such as “I will
take the contract and write zero helicopters across it”. As a
representative of Canadian soldiers and airmen, I hang my head in
shame that we would irresponsibly consider sending Canadian
pilots to war in planes and helicopters that are older than the
pilots who fly them.
Recently the minister of defence stated that he was close to
procurement. I would like to state for the record that vague
phrases such as “we are close to procurement” will be
meaningless to pilots forced to fly unsafe helicopters. I dare
say it will also be meaningless to troops who will depend upon
these helicopters.
The objectives of this war are unclear, the strategy is flawed
and Canada's role of having any significant say in decisions that
will eventually cause the death of Canadian soldiers is in
question.
NATO entered this war with the president of the United States
declaring that the U.S. would not send in ground troops. Where
was Canada's respected position? How well was Canada listened
to? Did we complain about the outright stupidity of such
tactics? Canadians know that Canada's voice has not been heard.
Canadians also know that Canada's opinion is not requested. Our
soldiers are at war against a veteran military power while our
government is at best anti-military and at worst irresponsible in
terms of our soldiers' lives.
For me this debate is not about what Canada should be doing.
This debate is about whether Canadian lives will be sacrificed
because their government is sending them to a war without proper
training and worse yet, without proper equipment.
1705
As a parliamentarian, I accept the responsibility of
parliamentarians and governments making difficult decisions. I
can even accept the government being led blindly by the nose.
What I cannot accept, and what no parliamentarian should accept,
is giving our soldiers a job to do, albeit a job they are trained
to do, but a job they do not have the tools to complete.
Tens of thousands of Canadian soldiers have died in foreign wars
to assure Canadians that decisions that are made which affect our
troops will be made by Canadian generals and by Canadians
themselves. I hope these soldiers did not die in vain.
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
have not had the opportunity to speak on this issue in the
previous days of debate. Unfortunately I did not make it on the
list of speakers.
I thought I would take it from a different tact today by talking
about the concerns expressed by my constituents on both sides of
the issue.
I have a letter from an elderly gentleman who was concerned
about the Aviano air base and whether or not there was protection
in case Milosevic lobbed some missiles. I have letters claiming
that this NATO action is completely illegal and should not be
happening.
A few people have become very emotional about the issue, but I
must say that overall there has not been a lot of public reaction
to this despite the serious nature of the issue. Last week while
monitoring radio talk shows in the Vancouver area, we did not
pick up a single call on this issue. Despite the serious nature
of this issue and the fact that Canada is involved in this
international conflict, it would seem that the average person on
the street considers it too far away and something that is not
important enough to worry about. I receive more letters about the
taxes families are paying and the difficulties with the
immigration system or justice issues than I receive about the
situation in Kosovo.
Nevertheless there are some strong feelings out there. I want to
put on the record some of the input I am getting. It is
frustrating for me as a person who is reasonably well travelled
that I have never been to the region where this conflict is
taking place. All of the constituents who have written to me
have not been there either. Sifting through all the information
can be frustrating in trying to make sure that we have the
correct impression about what is going on in Kosovo.
Perhaps the one thing that everyone agrees upon is that the
conflict has been there for a long time. Without making
judgments as to who is at fault or who is doing what to whom, the
conflict has been there for a long time. Perhaps there is a lot
of truth in the argument some constituents are presenting that
doing what we are doing will not solve the problem, that it may
actually exacerbate it.
It is frustrating not to have been there. It would have been
valuable and interesting to have heard from any members who had
lived there or had relatives there. They could have given us
some inside information about the way people feel in that
country.
I asked a question at one of the military briefings at the
defence committee last week regarding the number of refugees and
how much that problem had escalated. Were there ten times as
many refugees now as there were six months ago? The answer was
that there had been a large increase in the number of refugees
but it was not related to the bombing but rather to the police
activities of driving people out of their homes. That is
indirectly related to the bombing. Because of the bombing going
on police were getting more enthusiastic and driving people out
of their homes.
I had no opportunity to cross-examine and pursue this further to
get deeper into the question. This relates to the frustration of
not having intimate knowledge about the area and being certain
that the information we are getting is 100% correct.
I will read a couple of excerpts from some of the letters I have
received. These reflect some of the concerns coming from people
in my riding. Mr. Ken Moir wrote to me and said in part of his
letter:
These people are in greater disarray as the bombing attacks
continue. The objective of the bombing attack is not being
achieved-may turn the war into an infantry assault-at very great
cost, and should not be considered in any way whatsoever.
It is my opinion an infantry assault would be a preamble to WW 3.
Let our MPs ponder this unthinkable probability, and think
wisely as to how Canada is to proceed either in NATO or out of
NATO. It is my opinion that (the Prime Minister) is not the
leader that we so urgently need at this time.... Where is Lester
Pearson when we need him? My views have some input from my time
in Europe in WW 2 1943-45.
1710
That is a concerned person writing in with his feelings about
the situation.
A lady who writes to me quite often, Victoria Hogan, sent me an
e-mail addressed actually to the defence minister:
My opinion is not reflected in the alleged 78% of Canadians
approving of our bombing of Yugoslavia. If asked, I most
certainly would have said NO, and so would hundreds of people of
my own personal acquaintance. In fact, today on national TV
Vancouver Sun Columnist Barbara Yaffe said that the media
has been giving a very one-sided account of events in Yugoslavia,
and that this could well account for this so-called majority
opinion. I had thought so right from the start, but Barbara was
courageous enough to say it on national TV.
Ms. Hogan goes on to express her opposition to what is going on,
much in the way that Ken Moir did, asking us to concentrate much
more on diplomatic efforts.
To the credit of the NDP, that is the basis of the motion that
is before us today. I will read it into the record for members
who may have missed it: “That this House calls on the
government to intensify and accelerate efforts to find a
diplomatic solution to the crisis in Kosovo through the
involvement of Russia and the United Nations, and to urge NATO
not to impose a naval blockade or take any other actions that
expand the conflict and stand in the way of a diplomatic
solution”.
It is hard to disagree with the intent of the motion. I know
there has been a lot of support for it today.
Moving back to some of the correspondence I have received, I
received an e-mail addressed to the Prime Minister from Nenad
Gajic, who I believe is a person from the Yugoslav area,
expressing a strong protest toward NATO's and consequently
Canada's declaration of war on the federal republic of
Yugoslavia.
You have acted unilaterally in this matter. You led Canada into
aggression against a sovereign country which did not attack
Canada.
That is a different perspective of the situation from someone
who has come to Canada from that region and is very disturbed
about it. I know other members have received e-mails like that
from people who have come here perhaps as refugees or as
immigrants and feel that Canada has declared war, that we are
doing entirely the wrong thing.
Finally, I would like to mention Mr. Ken Timewell who writes to
me regularly on issues of peace throughout the world, or perhaps
conflicts throughout the world. I received a letter from him
dated April 17:
I have just returned home after a vacation abroad, only to learn
that the Canadian government is actively supporting the U.S.-led
NATO bombing of “Serb targets” in the Balkans. Worse still, I
am told that all five major political parties in Canada support
this illegal military action. It is truly a sad time in our
history.
Mr. Timewell goes on to mention that he does not support the
aggressive military action by NATO members and does not see how
it can possibly bring anything but added instability to the
region.
He wrote to me again a few days later and we had several
discussions on the telephone too. This gentleman was deeply
concerned about the issue. He wanted me to get his concern on
the record in the House and I am pleased to do that today.
We had quite a discussion about whether or not he had intimate
knowledge of the region. When he wrote his second letter he did
say:
Perhaps not unlike yourself, my knowledge of the recent history
of the Balkans is quite modest, however I am working hard to
become informed on the subject.
He then goes on to say that despite his lack of information of
an intimate nature about the area, he still within himself is
opposed to this type of conflict and really does not want us to
be involved. He goes on to encourage us to get involved at a
diplomatic level. That relates back again to the thrust of the
motion before us today.
That puts on the record some of the concerns which have come
through. I must say I have had many more letters against what is
happening than those for. As I mentioned at the beginning of my
speech, listening to the radio talk shows and looking at letters
to the editor in the newspapers, there really has not been a lot
of public reaction.
1715
I am not sure if other members have found this in their ridings
as well. We have certainly received letters from individual
constituents, but the public as a whole does not seem to have
reacted.
That pretty much wraps up everything I needed to get on the
record today. I welcome any input from members as a result of
what I raised today. If there are any questions I would be
pleased to answer them.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): Before we get to
comments and questions, could the hon. member for North Vancouver
confirm that it was his intention to use a 10 or a 20 minute time
slot? Was he sharing his time?
Mr. Ted White: Mr. Speaker, I was to use 10 minutes for
my speech and 5 minutes for questions and comments.
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, like my
colleague from North Vancouver I too have had a considerable
amount of input from constituents on this issue. They are very
concerned about what is happening. I also have had the full
spectrum of responses.
Some have asked “What are you doing using my taxpayer money to
bomb my relatives over there?” There is a very genuine concern
on the part of people with family there who may not necessarily
be on one side or the other of the initial conflict but are in
the line of fire of the bombs that come from high.
Then there is the opposite view where others ask “How come when
we have an internal conflict in our country we have to take on
the whole world in order to try to solve it?” Those are
questions that we need to work through by increasing debate. We
need to see if we can find a solution to the problems.
I am very concerned that the government is proceeding in a way
which I think is perhaps very ill advised. Regardless of what we
do in our country, it is very important for us to have the
consensus and support of our people. That can only come by
having a debate and by having a vote on an issue of great
importance.
We know from the government that it does not like to have debate
on things which are controversial. A day or so ago we had the
unseemly event of the government invoking time allocation on
matters that it did not want to have too many people across the
country getting upset about. It used time allocation and said
“We will not talk about it. We will just do it and we will tell
our guys how to vote”.
I am also concerned about the fact that members are not given
the opportunity to cast a vote on Canada's involvement. That is
wrong. We should be able to express our support for our troops
if we are to send them. Or, we should be able to say we are not
sending them for very good reasons. That can only come when
there is open and honest debate with a vote at the end.
I am distressed about what is happening in Kosovo. I am
certainly supportive of the motion before us today. I believe we
should be solving problems like this one with debates and votes.
We should not be solving such problems with bullets, body bags
and bombs. I know that is the dilemma we face. We have
President Milosevic who is hell-bent on promoting this conflict.
Having had family at the brunt end of such dictators and such
people who do not value the lives of others, I have a great deal
of sympathy for those who are now being forced out of their homes
and out of their country. That is exactly what happened to my
family a scant 70 years ago. I remember as a youngster hearing
my family members, my grandparents and others, talking about it.
It is totally distressing.
1720
When I heard of these people and the atrocities to which they
were subjected, my first reaction was just like that of everyone
else's. What can we do to stop this killing? What can we do to
stop this ethnic cleansing, as it is called?
I really think that is a misnomer. Somehow it makes the word
clean become a dirty word. I wish we could come up with
something better in the English language to describe it. It is
devastating and dreadful. Surely it would be good if we could
persuade that president to stop this and to engage in
negotiations, as we would all love to see.
What do we do with a person who says “I am not talking; we have
decided what we are doing and we are just going to go ahead with
it?” Does one then put the force of war and attack into his
face and have him face the consequences? I suppose that is the
only other alternative. In that instance we have to work
together with all other countries in the world to protect the
lives of the people who are being so unfairly attacked.
My son has spent some time in that part of the world and he had
some gruesome stories to tell about some of the atrocities. They
were things that we do not like to even talk about because they
are so dreadful, things that were being done to women and
children.
Again, that is exactly what happened to my family when family
members were being attacked. Three of my grandfather's brothers
were shot. That is the day that my grandfather said “I think we
are going to leave”. They escaped the bullets directly
themselves. They got out because of the atrocities that were
being committed against their friends and family.
That is what is happening in Kosovo. These people are fleeing a
dreadful enemy, a dreadful attacker, a ruthless attacker. I have
great sympathy for them.
If I had my druthers, what we would do is provide as much help
as we could for those who are fleeing. It should be done in the
province of Kosovo. Perhaps our troops could secure a part of
the country or make arrangements with neighbouring provinces and
provide for those people so that their needs are met.
I do not know if the House can imagine it. We take our
amenities of life for granted. My son reported that one of the
things that amazed him about that part of the world was how
similar it was to ours. The homes looked the same. The streets
in the towns and cities looked the same. He said the only
difference is when one gets close to the homes one sees that they
are riddled with bullet holes.
It is dreadful to think that tomorrow we might be pushed out of
our homes. We would no longer have our own beds to sleep in. We
would no longer have the facilities and amenities to which we are
so accustomed. We would just be out. We would be living in
tents, if we were lucky. Otherwise we would be out in the open
with an uncertain food supply, an uncertain water supply and no
shelter.
Some of them are suffering from illness and injury. I would like
to see Canada being the leader. We have a reputation as being
peacekeepers and providing for people in a humane fashion. I
would like to see Canada up its efforts in this area to make sure
those who have escaped the ravages of this attack at least have
their immediate physical needs met over there.
I know there are a lot of non-governmental agencies working in
the area. I encourage our government to support them because I
think they administer that type of assistance in a very efficient
way, at least the organizations with which I am familiar. They
are there. They are reaching out a hand of friendship and help
to those people, and that is what we should be doing.
In the meanwhile we should seriously look at what we can do, as
the motion suggests, in forcing the hand of Mr. Milosevic to the
table, forcing him by demanding that there be negotiation and
that he start to talk about what his plans are and what we can do
to work this problem out and stop the atrocities toward people.
1725
Whatever that military procedure, it is much beyond my ability
because I am not a military strategist, but I believe something
has to be done. I would certainly encourage us to up the ante in
terms of a diplomatic approach.
Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, while I respect the member opposite and many of the
things he said I just have to bring him up on one point. He
called for a debate, and I do believe that we have been having a
debate right here. It is a debate where at least this member of
parliament feels he is not speaking for the government side, but
I am speaking for the nation, speaking for Canada.
Whether there is a vote or not at the end of this debate, the
important thing is that we should be here in our privileged
positions as members of parliament, as the very few people in
this entire country that can actually speak from our hearts and
speak for our constituents about the situation in Yugoslavia at
this time.
The member alluded to the lack of a vote and I have to also
comment on that, even though I do not want this debate to become
partisan. Unfortunately, his leader at every opportunity has
complained about the lack of a vote in this kind of debate that
we are having.
We are not the United States. In the United States the
president can unilaterally declare war. He is the chief of the
armed forces and he is unreachable by Congress. It is true that
in the United States he can go on for a long time until the money
runs out and carry on a war; but here in Canada our leader, if he
does embark on a military enterprise, be it a declared war or
undeclared war, is still subject to challenge in this House at
any time in a vote of no confidence. In the United States they
cannot get rid of the president except by impeachment if he
decides to embark on a military venture of any kind, like Vietnam
for example; but here in this House we always have the
opportunity to vote the government down and out.
The reality, however, is that if it comes to MPs deciding policy
in times of conflict, whether it is a war situation conflict or a
diplomatic conflict, we cannot make informed choices in our votes
if we are not at the NATO table, if we do not have the same
information that the Prime Minister has.
The Prime Minister is plugged into the intelligence services.
The foreign minister is having talks with the Russians. All of
this pertains to whether or not we will do something tomorrow, be
it whether we will send a frigate out into the sea to conduct an
embargo or whether we will use combat troops or whether we will
use peacekeeping forces.
In this House one cannot ask us, we MPs, to decide on the future
of the nation when we cannot be at the table. We cannot be at
the table, as we have already seen in the House because of a
member of the Conservative Party who rose in this House and asked
questions pertaining to the disclosure of covert operations that
were occurring in Yugoslavia, theoretically, which could put
members of our forces at risk. So long as we cannot guarantee
that members will keep the confidences entrusted in them, we
cannot have a vote in this House because we can never be
entrusted with all the knowledge.
Mr. Ken Epp: Mr. Speaker, I somehow still have this
belief that the very essence, the very foundation of democracy is
the elector voting. All of us have been sent here by people on
the basis of a vote and we make decisions in this House based
upon a vote. I just find it very ironic for us when we are
dealing with such an important matter.
One of the things that bears very heavily on me is the fact that
those people who are now being deployed to Macedonia to be ready
to enter a ground war are soldiers from my riding. I should be
able to be here to debate and to vote on whether or not we are
committing them at the risk of their lives, their health and
their safety. As their representative in the House of Commons,
which is supposed to be the supreme body here, I should have the
authority to actually express it in a vote.
I do not think I will back down on that.
1730
The member certainly made some pretty strong arguments on the
other side. If he can convince me that every backbencher over
there who votes with the government on command is fully apprised
of all the issues, then maybe his argument would have a little
more strength.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): It being 5.30 p.m.,
it is my duty to inform the House that the proceedings on the
motion have expired.
The House will now proceed to the consideration of Private
Members' Business as listed on today's order paper.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[English]
HEPATITIS C
Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, PC) moved:
That, in the opinion of this
House, the government should take all necessary steps to provide
a humane and fair resolution for those infected with hepatitis C
through the blood supply system, and provide for research,
education and support into the identification of other inherited
bleeding disorders, in particular von Willebrand's disease.
He said: Mr. Speaker, it is nice to be on my feet again on this
very timely topic. I just want to remind the House that it will
be a year ago tomorrow that we voted on the compensation package
for all hepatitis C victims. I want to read into the record the
motion the House voted on a year ago.
That this House urges the government to act on the recommendation
of Justice Horace Krever to compensate all victims who contracted
Hepatitis C through tainted blood.
The difficulty is of course that the government only recognizes
those individuals between 1986 and 1990. That pretty well
explains my motion. What we have are innocent victims outside of
that time package who are as deserving of compensation as those
people within that time period. It is a very narrow period of
time that the government purposely designed. It has created
problems.
I have always figured, and I think most of us have, that Canada
is a very fair and generous country. When we are leaving victims
outside a package designed to compensate them there is something
dreadfully wrong.
I want to go through some of the numbers just to point out how
generous Canadians are. We are very supportive as a people, as a
group and as a country of compensating all of those victims.
These are some statistics. Statistics alone cannot obviously
tell the story. I will be the first to admit that no government
should operate basically on public opinion all the time because
there are other factors that have to be considered. However, I
think this gives a sense of what Canadians are thinking.
Statistics tell us that 89% of Canadians support providing
financial assistance to all persons with serious adverse
consequences as a result of contracting hepatitis C from the
blood supply system; 83% of Canadians believe it is unfair that
pre-1986 victims are not eligible for financial assistance; and
only 9% said it is fair.
In terms of supporting compensation, it is pretty unanimous
across the country. For example, in Ontario it is 88%, 93% in
Quebec, 87% in B.C., 84% in the prairies and 95% in Atlantic
Canada. It is pretty compelling when we take a look at the
statistics in terms of public support for compensating all
victims.
1735
I want to quote directly from Justice Krever's report, volume 3,
page 1029. It states:
The compassion of a society can be judged by the measures it
takes to reduce the impact of tragedy on its members.
In Volume 3, page 1045 of that same report, Krever states:
Until now, our treatment of the blood-injured has been unequal.
After years of suffering devastating financial losses, many
persons infected with HIV from blood or blood products, or their
surviving family members, finally did receive financial
assistance. Other Canadians—
—and we are talking about hepatitis C people—
—who have suffered injuries from blood therapy have not received
any compensation. Yet the needs of those who have been harmed
are the same, regardless of their cause and whether or not fault
can be proved. Compensating some needy sufferers and not others
cannot, in my opinion, be justified.
I think the Canadian people are in complete agreement with
Justice Krever. We cannot justify a package that leaves people
outside. Think of the dates, 1986 to 1990. It means that if
someone became infected because of a blood transfusion on
December 31, 1985 they would not be compensated. A day later,
New Year's day of 1986, they would be.
What kind of perverse logic would lead someone to believe that
type of package would be acceptable to the Canadian people? It
is not acceptable. We in the House fought for months on that
particular issue.
A year ago tomorrow will be the day when the Liberals stood up
and supported a package that discriminates against victims of
hepatitis C through no fault of their own. Why would they do it?
Why did they do it? They just simply kowtowed or bowed down to
pressure exerted on them by the Prime Minister. They all stood
in their place and did it.
An hon. member: And the Minister of Health.
Mr. Greg Thompson: And the Minister of Health. They all
knew full well that what they were doing was not right.
Ms. Elinor Caplan: That's not true.
Mr. Greg Thompson: Mr. Speaker, the Parliamentary
Secretary to the Health Minister will have her chance to speak,
but I will remind her that it is true. They did kowtow to the
wishes of the Prime Minister.
Tomorrow on the front lawn of Parliament Hill a rally will be
taking place. It will be led by a man by the name of Joey Haché
who criss-crossed Canada by bicycle last year in an effort to
raise public opinion on this issue.
I will read from the notice, not that I am using it as a prop,
but it states:
Wednesday, April 28, noon on the front steps of Parliament—no
rally...just a statement. I'm asking all Opposition MPs to join
me for 5 minutes to show victims across Canada that they haven't
been forgotten! Can we still count on your support against the
Liberals?
He can count on our support on this side of the House. I
believe he can probably count on support from across the aisle as
well, from some of those people who found it very difficult to
stand in their place and support a measure they did not believe
in. They have now had a year to think about it.
What is so crazy about the government's position is that it is
saying it cannot afford to compensate all victims so it will
compensate some. I say this position is dictated more by the
Minister of Finance than it is by the Minister of Health.
On numerous occasions, on questions in the House, I would say
“would the real Minister of Health stand up”. Do members know
which minister would rise on such questions? It was the finance
minister because he was the one holding the purse strings. He
was the one, more so than the health minister, who dictated who
would be compensated. It was so ridiculous when $1.1 billion was
announced only for the victims between 1986 and 1990.
1740
Some of our people today talked about helicopters. This is the
same government that cancelled a necessary helicopter deal. It
cancelled a legal and binding agreement which cost the taxpayers
of Canada $750 million. It did not build a single helicopter.
The helicopter issue resurrects its ugly head from time to time
in this Chamber simply because what is going on in the world
today is part of this debate. It cancelled the deal, which just
paid its legal costs, to buy itself out of a piece of business.
It is unbelievable.
It did the same thing with Pearson airport. The people of
Toronto are suffering because of a lack of leadership on the part
of the government in the expansion of Pearson airport. What did
the government do in that case? It cancelled the deal. It cost
the taxpayers over a billion dollars to simply cancel a a binding
contract it did not want with all the i's an t's
dotted and crossed.
If we take those two deals alone, we are talking about $1.75
billion. However, for the sake of argument, let us say $2
billion because the government is still adding and counting in
terms of the Pearson deal. We still do not yet know what the
final settlement will be.
The government is saying that it cannot compensate hepatitis C
victims but it can carry out a political vendetta against
whatever group at whatever cost. It does not have to talk about
compensating innocent Canadians. This falls directly at the
doorstep of the Prime Minister. It is not too late to do
something.
Logically one might ask why this issue would resurrect its ugly
head again in the House of Commons. Did we not have enough to
say about it last year? We have not had enough to say about it.
This issue will continually resurrect its ugly head until the
government deals with it. Members are going to hear this from
this side of the House time and time again. We are going to keep
throwing in motions and using standing orders to remind the
government that it did the wrong thing.
We only have to go through the clippings to realize how poorly
the Liberal government handled this. The Red Cross, which has
had its own set of problems, said that all victims should be
compensated. The September 19, 1998 headline from the Globe
and Mail said “Payments to blood victims ruled out. Ottawa's
enhanced health care offer is met with scorn”.
It goes on even into the Senate, that chamber of sober second
thought which we sometimes criticize on a daily basis in this
place. It even recommended that all victims be compensated. What
happened? Some governments acted on their own. They showed some
leadership. The Government of Ontario, recognizing an injustice,
compensated all victims in that province.
1745
I called upon the province of New Brunswick last December to do
the same thing. On December 16, 1998 I met with Premier
Thériault and his health minister, Mrs. Breau, on that very
issue. I suggested that they should compensate all victims or at
least extend the compensation on an interim basis to those people
before the package was agreed upon.
The other sad fact about the compensation package that was
announced is that not one single victim has received a cent of
compensation. Now there is a protracted legal argument because
of the mishandling by the present government.
What we are saying is the provinces have to act alone.
Unilaterally they should do it as the province of Ontario has
done. We would like to see it happen in all the provinces. If
they have to take the leadership on this issue, so be it. We do
not have a government that will take the leadership or has even
shown an inch of leadership on this issue.
In all fairness we are all disappointed with the announcement
that only the 1986 to 1990 victims will be compensated. We want
to see all victims compensated. I look forward to the debate on
this motion.
Ms. Elinor Caplan (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to debate this
motion which was first put before the House in 1997. I say to the
member opposite who moved the motion that a lot has happened
since then.
I welcome this opportunity to speak about this very important
issue and remind the House of the leadership taken by the federal
government and in particular the Minister of Health regarding the
issue of hepatitis C.
Without question the plight of Canadians who contracted
hepatitis C from the blood supply evokes in all of us an
overwhelming impulse of concern and sympathy. People who were
injured or ill and who needed blood transfusions turned to our
blood system in their time of need. Mr. Justice Krever so ably
described in his final report that the blood system served to
compound their problems because the blood they received was
infected with hepatitis C.
In 1998 federal, provincial and territorial ministers of health
put $1.1 billion on the table to settle lawsuits and legal claims
for the period between 1986 and 1990. We know from the debate
which took place in the House the reason for that time period.
There was an acknowledgement both in Mr. Justice Krever's report
and among public policy experts in Canada that had different
decisions been made in 1986, there might have been a different
result. We know that it is always hard to judge those issues,
but decisions were made in Canada, decisions were taken in Canada
that were different from the international standard that had been
established in 1986.
This past December an agreement in principle was reached by the
negotiators. I understand that significant progress is being
made to finalize the settlement proposal which will go before the
courts for approval. That is enormous progress on this very
difficult and important issue. We believe that whatever
settlement is proposed, it is the courts that must say that this
is fair. That is the foundation of the policy of the government,
one of fairness and one of compassion.
Whatever the specifics of the emerging settlement, the
government is confident that these negotiations have been the
appropriate way to proceed, given that these matters have to be
resolved before the courts and Canadians want a full,
comprehensive and responsible solution to this issue.
I have had the privilege of serving in public office for almost
20 years, at the provincial level for 12 years, five of those in
government, seven in opposition. I say to members opposite that
being in opposition affords them a certain luxury of being
irresponsible. But being in government, good public policy
requires that governments be responsible in the decisions they
propose.
I believe the government has been responsible and compassionate
in its approach on this issue.
1750
Within the Canadian tradition of moderate compromise, we will
solve in a responsible way the difficult issues of the past as
they relate to hepatitis C.
At the end of the day, this negotiated settlement should in
financial terms give a measure of comfort to many of the
individuals who were infected with hepatitis C by the blood
system.
But the federal government has had to take a longer and broader
view. Hepatitis C is still a relatively new disease to the
scientific and medical communities. The federal government has
taken decisive action.
This past September the Minister of Health announced a
comprehensive federal initiative including funding for medical
research, community support, public education, improvements in
disease surveillance and to work to find those who might not yet
know they are infected with hepatitis C. The Minister of Health
announced a proposal to the provinces and the territories for a
significant transfer payment to be made to ensure that the health
system in each of the provinces responds as fast as it can and as
appropriately as it can to the health needs of those infected.
This has not been an easy path. We should not forget that it
took federal leadership to have this issue receive the attention
it has received to where we are today which is trying to settle
those lawsuits between 1986 and 1990 and provide health services
to those who were infected outside of that window where if other
decisions had been made, perhaps the outcomes and the results
would have been different.
Federal investment in hepatitis C is now very significant, in
all totalling more than $1 billion, but it is not only money that
measures the level of federal commitment in this area. It is
also what these initiatives represent in terms of the commitment
to knowledge and scientific development and fostering new
productive relationships, all the while preserving and respecting
the federal role in health and health care.
I would like to take the next few minutes to review some of
those successes in addressing the hepatitis C issue that the
federal leadership has brought about in just a few short years.
While we all acknowledge that there are things yet to be done, we
do not spend enough time acknowledging that which has been done.
First let me start by pointing out that as in all things
Canadian, this issue has required interjurisdictional
collaboration. Federal, provincial and territorial governments
have worked closely with one another to see that the transition
to a new blood system, one that Canadians can have confidence in,
has gone as smoothly as possible and that blood and blood
products in Canada are as safe as they can be.
For its part, the federal government has had a leading role in
what has been a very successful transition. A key part has been
to ensure that all jurisdictions are of the same frame of mind
when it comes to making the safety of the blood system paramount.
That is a huge accomplishment. That is a significant and
important change.
The additional $125 million in support of the federal regulatory
and disease surveillance role, and up to $50 million to help the
provinces pay for their public health function of finding those
people who are infected with hepatitis C are clear indications of
the federal government's commitment to ensuring that these
functions are sufficiently resourced.
The federal government has acknowledged that people infected
with hepatitis C might not always have reasonable access to the
health services they might require over time, and that increasing
resources would help to address this problem. The Minister of
Health has offered $300 million to the provinces and territories
as a way to cover the needed medical care over the next 20 years
and to focus our attention on resolving the issues surrounding
this disease. The provinces and the territories have yet to fully
respond.
We have also moved to meet the needs for more information and
more support. We could not wait until the research momentum had
built up by itself. For that reason the federal Minister of
Health announced dedicated research funding of up to $50 million
over the next five years because we need answers if we are going
to help those people.
1755
I am pleased to report that the federal government has been
funding efforts to educate medical professionals and the public
about hepatitis C. All these indications suggest that our
efforts are working.
Finally, we know many people who suffer with disabilities apply
for the Canada pension plan as an important source of income.
There are people with all kinds of disabilities. We all know
from our constituency work that the process of determining
eligibility through the Canada pension plan disability benefit is
very thorough. That means it is difficult.
CPP adjudicators look at each case to determine if the
disability genuinely prevents the person from working at any job.
To ensure that adjudicators are aware of hepatitis C, its
implications and its impact, Human Resources Development Canada
has carried out very specific training for the adjudicators.
People with hepatitis C over the years will now have adjudicators
who are responsive and sensitive and who understand hepatitis C.
That is something we do not talk about, but it is very important.
These are the types of activities that require the kind of
commitment we have seen from the federal government. Without this
commitment there would not be the momentum behind the
comprehensive approach to dealing with hepatitis C that we see
today.
The last word I would like to make today on this important
motion is that the action taken by the federal government is not
only appropriate and good public policy, it was the right thing
to do.
Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
Motion No. 273 which we are debating today is a noble motion and
one that should enjoy the support of all sides of the House,
except the Liberals of course.
As we know, this kind of motion did not receive their support
exactly one year ago tomorrow. Joey Haché was here that day. He
is a very young victim of tainted blood. He stood in the gallery
while the Liberals voted not to compensate him for his sickness.
One year ago Canadians witnessed a very important vote in the
House on a matter that can only be described as a tragedy.
It was the federal government that controlled the Canadian blood
supply that infected about 60,000 Canadians. We forced the House
to vote on that issue because of the cold-hearted position of the
Minister of Health. In the beginning he wanted to close the file
and compensate no one. Today after about a year of holding his
feet to the fire, he is willing to compensate about 20,000 of the
victims of tainted blood.
Last year 1,200 of the victims died. Many of the victims have
already died. It is as if the health minister is stalling so that
as many of these victims as possible can die before he is finally
forced to open up the vaults of taxpayer money he and his pal the
finance minister have siphoned off the paycheques of Canadians
and then pay off the victims who have successfully struggled to
stay alive without any help from the Liberal government.
Many members on this side of the House were very sad, very
emotional and very angry when that vote was held in this chamber.
We knew that the Liberals would vote against compensating
Canadians infected with federal government controlled tainted
blood. On this side of the House we were frustrated, but we tried
to get the Liberals to allow the House of Commons to do the right
thing.
On the other side of the House the tears being shed were of a
different nature. Backbench Liberal MPs were weeping openly
because even though they and their constituents felt that we
should help the people infected with tainted blood, they had to
vote against helping those Canadians. If those Liberal MPs did
not vote as they were told to vote, the Prime Minister would
ensure that they were punished.
There are no free votes in the House as long as the traditional
kind of political party like the one across the way holds the
majority of seats in the House.
The Liberals will not even agree to televise parliamentary
committee meetings. Why? Because they want Canadians to know as
little about this place as possible. They want to hide the way
they are forcing their MPs to vote and govern.
1800
Canadians know about the dictatorial behaviour of the Prime
Minister and the lack of compassion shown to Canadians by the
government. We know because it keeps on spending tax dollars and
it refuses to give us tax relief even though the budget is in
surplus. Canadian families are suffering under the heaviest tax
burden by the government.
Right now, outside the House, Canadians are working on an
alternative to traditional political parties. The alternative
will truly be democratic and will put an end to the government
that talks the talk about democracy but fails to walk the walk
when it comes to power.
The government has cut $23 billion in health care and education
since it came to power. The government has refused to eliminate
waste and duplication in federal spending. It has already spent
$450 million on a gun registry system that is estimated to cost
about $1.2 billion. It appears the Liberals are sucking money
out of health and education to pay for the highly questionable
gun registration system. In fact, it should emphasize education
and health care that would help our children.
Mr. Wayne Easter: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. Does the member opposite not have to be on topic? I
think he must be dreaming that he was in the Liberal caucus when
he was in the Reform caucus when all these members were tuned up
for their indiscretions.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): That is certainly
not a point of order. The hon. member for Surrey Central has
been on topic and is on topic. The topic goes around in circles
and he is part of that circle.
Mr. Gurmant Grewal: Mr. Speaker, I am very much on topic
and I am exposing what the government is supposed to do and is
not doing. In fact, it takes money from health and education
which it should spend on our children, on our families. The point
I am trying to make is that the government has focused on the
wrong target. It spends millions of dollars on things like free
flags, for example.
The Liberals spent $3 billion helping 40,000 fishermen thrown
out of work due to the failure of the federal government managed
east coast fishery.
Why would the Liberals not spend money to help the surviving
40,000 hepatitis C victims whose lives were thrown into jeopardy
by federal government managed blood?
I could go on and on and on. I have little time to describe the
shameful record of the government that has caused this motion to
be brought before the House for debate. The Liberal government
allowed Justice Krever to be held up in court so that he could
not report to Canadians what he had found during his inquiry. The
health minister withheld vital documents from him, but Justice
Krever continued to fight and would not let it go. He submitted
his report to the House, but the Liberal government virtually
ignored it.
Ontario and Quebec are ready to compensate hepatitis C victims
without discrimination. The Liberal health minister by contrast
is only compensating his legal beagle buddies by providing them
the means to launch lawsuits and have the victims pay the lawyers
in order to try to make the federal government compensate them
for the federal government's mistake of giving them tainted
blood.
The official opposition has been calling for immediate
compensation before it is too late for many victims of tainted
blood who need help right now. We on this side will continue to
call for a no fault insurance fund to compensate all victims.
This was one of the recommendations of Justice Krever, by the
way, if members on the other side who are heckling have
forgotten.
Some 87% of Canadians believe that provincial and federal
governments have a moral obligation to compensate these victims,
and 72% of Canadians believe it is unfair to compensate for HIV
or AIDS while denying the hepatitis C victims compensation.
1805
Speaking to the second part of the motion, there are a number of
diseases on the other hand that we can test for and seek to
control, including von Willibrand's disease. We should be
concerned about these diseases.
I am sure the member who proposed the motion is aware there is
no way that the Liberals will entertain paying heed to this
concern. This is a government that lacks compassion and lacks
vision.
All these diseases and bleeding disorders should be studied. I
am talking about a broader picture. We should do the most and
the best research we can to tackle these diseases and screen them
out of our blood supply. We could make progress, but we have to
prepare a blueprint and a long term vision. We know the Liberals
do not have that and do not want to do that.
In conclusion, the motion we are debating today is wishful
thinking. Canadians know that Liberals will fight, drag their
feet, dig in their heels and be dragged kicking and screaming
before they show compassion and compensate the victims of
government controlled tainted blood.
[Translation]
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, it is sad to
have to debate this matter again today. Justice Krever's report
was tabled over one year ago—its anniversary is coming up
tomorrow. Still nothing has yet been settled for the hepatitis C
victims.
The motion introduced by the hon. member for New Brunswick
Southwest, which dates back to November 1997, just a few days
after the Krever report was tabled, is as current as ever, for
this motion recommended compensation for all victims of tainted
blood.
The motion before us this evening reads as follows:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should take
all necessary steps to provide a humane and fair resolution for
those infected with hepatitis C through the blood supply system,
and provide for research, education and support into the
identification of other inherited bleeding disorders, in
particular von Willebrand's disease.
So here we are, still debating a motion that is as current as
ever, a year after the tabling of the Krever report. That is
what is unfortunate.
Following the report, the government, in March 1998, after
voting against an opposition motion calling for compensation of
all victims of hepatitis C, provided $1.1 billion in
compensation to people who contracted hepatitis C between
January 1, 1986 and July 1, 1990, because it did not acknowledge
making a mistake either before or after this period.
Over a year later, the motion is still relevant—sad but
true—because there exists no fair and just compensation for all
victims of hepatitis C, who were contaminated by this blood, as
the hepatitis C people put it “This rotten blood we were
injected with”.
Motion M-273 calls upon the government to take every possible
measure to find a fair and equitable settlement for people
infected by the hepatitis C virus.
In this regard, an initial step is possible in the form of a
transfer to the Government of Quebec of its share of the $300
million announced last September to compensate all those who
became victims, regardless of the date.
1810
If this $300 million were transferred on a pro rata basis to the
people, we could say in Quebec that we had a fair share of this
money.
To provide a little background, Quebec and Ontario felt that the
government's offer fell short and the two of them announced they
would extend the compensation program to include all victims,
regardless of the date. In September 1998, the federal
government announced $300 million to pay the medical costs of
people infected through the blood supply system.
Since Quebec already has a program to cover medical expenses,
the Quebec government asked that its share be used to extend the
compensation package to more people because, as members know,
the federal government does not recognize victims infected prior
to 1986 and after 1990.
Since Quebec already pays for medical expenses and since the
federal government announced $300 million in compensation,
Quebec would like to get its share so that it could use it to
compensate all victims, that is those infected before 1986 and
after 1990.
This request is based on the government's resolution, announced
in the 1996 throne speech, to no longer use its spending power
to establish programs in areas of provincial jurisdiction
without the provinces' agreement. That resolution also included
a right to opt out with compensation.
But now, it appears that the formula used to distribute the
money between the provinces, which was always based on the
population of a province, may no longer be valid. Instead of
paying $75 million, or 25% of the $300 million, as provided
under the established formula, the federal government is only
prepared to give Quebec $45 million, or 15% of the total amount.
This change caught everyone by surprise. Neither the Quebec
government nor the victims or the organizations working for
them, including the Quebec chapter of the Hemophilia Society,
can understand why Quebec's share does not reflect its
demographic weight, that is 25% of the overall population.
The federal government is said to have based this figure on
epidemiological studies. This is a very haphazard method, since
hepatitis C is difficult to detect. Indeed, many people may be
infected without knowing it, because they are still symptom free.
Using this sort of calculation, there is a risk of serious
errors that will ultimately penalize the victims, who are
waiting for some sort of compensation to improve their condition
and quality of life as much as possible.
This is why both the Canadian Hemophilia Society and the
Government of Quebec intend to put pressure on Ottawa to keep
the population-based formula. Thus, those who contracted the
disease before 1986 and those who did so after 1990 will be able
to count on $75 million instead of $42 million.
It has now been more than a year since the offer for those who
contracted the disease before 1986 and after 1990 was announced.
We now know what is in the agreement and we are still waiting
for the courts to approve it.
But, according to the Canadian Hemophilia Society, it is already
unacceptable. We are also waiting for the results of the Red
Cross's negotiations with its creditors to see how much it will
be able to offer victims.
One thing is certain: the issue is far from resolved.
The motion by the member for New Brunswick Southwest also calls
on the government to provide for research, education and support
into the identification of other inherited bleeding disorders,
in particular von Willebrand's disease.
The September 1998 announcement also mentioned $50 million over
five years for prevention, public education and research into
hepatitis C and other related diseases.
The House will agree that $50 million is a minimum, and that
much remains to be done to fully understand and treat these
diseases.
1815
In conclusion, much remains to be done for those whose lives
have been turned upside down because of deficiencies in the
blood supply system. We are appealing to people to show
compassion and ensure that those who have been the victims of
this national tragedy are properly compensated. The goal is not
to assign blame, but to ensure justice for all victims of this
unprecedented tragedy.
This government prides itself on guarding the safety of Canada's
blood supply system.
It can and it must do what is necessary to ensure that all
victims of the contaminated blood scandal are treated fairly.
[English]
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to participate in the debate on the motion
brought forward by the member for New Brunswick Southwest, which
is very timely and appropriate.
It is true that it is about one year ago today that we were
faced with a most regrettable situation which will go down as a
very sorry chapter in the history of this country. Joey Haché
and other victims of hepatitis C were in the gallery and observed
the proceedings as the government cracked the whip and required
all members of the Liberal Party in the House to vote against a
motion that would have ensured fair and just compensation for all
victims of hepatitis C in this country.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Health talks
about the successes around this issue. I have a hard time trying
to find any successes on this issue. I feel nothing really but
much shame and embarrassment that we have a government today
which failed to do the right thing in terms of this being a moral
issue and to follow the legal requirements, as we understand them
to be, ensuring that all Canadians are able to have access to
blood products, to drugs, to food and to medical devices that are
safe beyond a reasonable doubt.
The parliamentary secretary referred to several measures which
she says provide evidence of that success. She points to the
$1.1 billion settlement for compensation cases which fall between
the period of 1986-1990. She fails to mention that not one penny
of that $1.1 billion has been paid out.
It was only about a month ago that we received a press release
from the hepatitis C organizations on the anniversary of the day
when the government made its very arbitrary and regrettable
decision to limit compensation to those infected between 1986 and
1990. The Canadian Hemophilia Society reminded us that it has
been a year since this compensation was promised. Erma Chapman,
the head of the Canadian Hemophilia Society, stated very clearly
that there has been no money paid to any of the victims. She
stated: “There are seriously ill people who urgently require
treatment but do not have the financial resources to pay for it.
The hepatitis C virus is one that can cause serious liver damage
that can lead to death. We call on the federal government to
provide a method to fast-track assistance to those in serious
need of treatment and care for their hepatitis C infections.
Victims have died waiting for help from their government”.
On the first point that the government makes with respect to its
so-called success in this area, the government has failed to
ensure that any method of compensation is active in ensuring that
victims of hepatitis C are receiving some sort of assistance.
1820
The second point which was made concerns the financial
commitment of this government to assist provincial governments in
meeting the medical needs of hepatitis C victims and in helping
community groups support education, as well as ensuring that
quality of life mechanisms are in place for victims of hepatitis
C. There has been very little movement in that regard. I refer
specifically to the fact that on September 18, 1998 the Minister
of Health clearly announced a $50 million program to ensure that
there would be assistance and help when it comes to hepatitis C
disease prevention, community based support programs and
research. That program is still not up and running. Not a penny
of that $50 million is flowing to community organizations and
victim support groups to ensure that the system is in place to
provide meaningful support at a time of crisis.
As a part of its so-called successes, the government has also
talked about its movement to ensure that proper and active
regulatory systems are in place to absolutely guarantee that this
kind of tragedy will never happen again. In the year that has
passed since we last dealt with this very critical issue we have
seen nothing but evidence after evidence that the government has
not learned one lesson from the blood tragedy which this country
experienced or acted on one bit of advice from Justice Krever who
called very clearly for the government to recognize the error of
its ways and to move toward an active, not a passive, regulatory
approach when it comes to blood, food and drugs.
As an observer watching this government, it would almost seem
that it has forgotten the lessons of the past, that it has
decided to completely ignore Justice Krever because it has shown
not one iota of interest in moving toward a firm, active,
intensive regulatory approach in all of these areas around which
human safety and health is so much a question.
We just had the experience of going through four months of
hearings around the issue of organ and tissue donation and
transplantation. It was a major disappointment for us to learn
that this government had not learned from Justice Krever and was
not prepared to apply the recommendations of the Krever report
when it came to organs and tissues. Canadians see that blood is
no different than organs and tissues. All are invasive
procedures which require extra precautionary methods, yet this
government refuses to take a proactive approach when it comes to
the safety of Canadians. It has put on the table a risk
management framework for the matter of organs and tissues,
suggesting, despite everything we have learned from the blood
tragedy, that there may be circumstances under which this
government may not be held liable. For the first time, despite
Krever, this government is actually raising the possibility of
indemnification from the responsibility of ensuring the safety of
Canadians on all of those issues and matters regulated under the
Food and Drugs Act.
I have a hard time pointing to any successes on this issue. My
colleagues in the New Democratic Party and I are left with the
need to keep raising this issue and to try to convince the
government to reopen this sorry chapter in the history of our
society.
Many things have actually happened in the year since Joey Haché
and others were in the gallery watching developments unfold, not
the least of which was a major documentary by the Fifth
Estate in January 1999 pointing to the serious problems with
respect to blood collected from prisoners in the United States
coming into this country and the government not taking
precautions.
It was further evidence to Justice Krever's report about the
deplorable actions of this government, the absolute negligence on
the part of this government to ensure the safety of blood
products. I think that evidence alone should be enough for the
government to realize that it must reopen this question and it
must look for a way to ensure compensation for all victims of
hepatitis C because we are dealing with the failure of this
government to uphold its responsibilities under the law of the
land.
1825
I would use the same words that the member for New Brunswick
Southwest used in quoting Justice Krever who said “The
compassion of a society can be judged by the measures it takes to
reduce the impact of tragedy on its members”.
With those words in mind, today we are calling on the government
to show the compassion and leadership Canadians have come to
expect from their national government toward victims of tragedies
and disasters. We urge the government to take whatever steps are
necessary to ensure that hepatitis C victims in this tragic
episode are equally compensated.
It is only through this and putting in place corrective measures
to ensure that these circumstances are never repeated that we as
a nation can move forward with confidence and a sense of justice
worthy of Canada's traditions.
Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, PC): Mr.
Speaker, I want to thank all parties and members on this side of
the House who support my motion. It is encouraging when the
Bloc, Reform, NDP and Conservatives agree. I hope Canadians have
noticed that.
We can always tell when the government is nervous in this place.
Its members yak continually and try to throw off the speakers
when discussing a topic the government is not comfortable with.
We started off this debate by reminding the Canadian people that
exactly a year ago every one of those Liberal members, including
the ones that are presently in the House, stood on their feet and
denied compensation to innocent victims of hepatitis C. If I
were on that side and did the same thing, I would be extremely
nervous. In fact, most of us would be hiding under our desks
after having done that.
The Liberal Party is the only party that can swallow itself
whole on an issue like this and then come back into the House and
defend it. No other party can do that. That is exactly what the
Liberals are doing. They have swallowed themselves whole. They
always pretend to be the defenders of the underdog, the
underprivileged, the poor and the sick, except when it comes to
doing something. In this case, they did nothing for a group of
innocent victims.
I will not deny that the parliamentary secretary is a pretty
good person outside of this House and she probably is a
compassionate person, but that speech of hers sounded like it
came from an accountant. Why? Because it was drafted by her
lawyer. Who is her lawyer? Allan Rock. Who is Allan Rock? The
Minister of Health. That is bureaucratic gobbledegook. Is
gobbledegook a parliamentary word? I guess in this case it would
be because that is all it is.
We can tell by their expressions that the Liberals are not very
happy with our having resurrected this ugly issue, because they
look bad on it. They still look bad on it and it is not going to
go away easily. It is not going to die a natural death. Why?
Because on this side of the House we are not going to let it die.
We are not going to let the issue slowly fade away. It is an
important issue. It is an issue that Canadians want addressed.
The victims want redress.
I am going to step through some facts.
It is a fact that the federal government did not properly fulfil
its duties as a blood system regulator. This means that it did
not keep a close eye on the activities of the Red Cross.
It is a fact that the federal government reacted too slowly to
the threat of blood borne AIDS and mistakenly played down to
Canadians the risk of the virus contaminating the blood supply.
It is a fact that the provinces which funded the Red Cross blood
program did not provide timely and sufficient funds for
scientific tests that would have screened out blood contaminated
with the AIDS virus and hepatitis C.
It is a fact that the provinces did not do enough to track down
infected blood recipients, some of whom were unaware that they
had AIDS and unknowingly passed it on to their sexual partners.
The same applies to hepatitis C.
1830
It is a fact that the Red Cross took inadequate steps to
implement a screening program that would have prevented high risk
donors such as sexually active gay men from donating their blood.
It does not end there. It allowed contaminated blood from the
American prison system to come into the country.
It is a fact that the Red Cross did not move quickly enough to
replace its inventory of contaminated blood products used by
hemophiliacs with newer heat treated products that were safe. It
has nothing to be proud of in what it did for those victims.
Until all of those victims are compensated we on this side of
the House will continually fight for them. At some point the
government will have to atone for its sins.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The time provided
for the consideration of Private Members' Business has now
expired and the order is dropped from the order paper.
ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
[English]
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to
have been moved.
HOUSING
Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
thousands of my constituents in Vancouver East still face
terrible financial and personal losses as a result of leaky
condos. Sadly it is a crisis made worse by Liberal inaction at
the federal level.
The Liberals continued inaction and lack of concern are
unacceptable. Is it any wonder that people in B.C. feel
alienated from Ottawa? Apparently there is no help, no care and
no real support forthcoming.
I am here today to say that we will not stand for it. Nor will
we let up on our demand that the federal government do right by
the thousands of people in B.C. affected by this crisis. It is
something for which we have been fighting for a long time.
Back in July 1998 and again in December 1998 I wrote to the
minister urgently asking the government to support
recommendations from both the Barrett commission and the
Condominium Owners Association of B.C. for tax relief and GST
rebates. To date the federal government has rejected these
recommendations.
In March of this year the B.C. municipal affairs minister
visited Ottawa to pressure the federal government to participate
in the B.C. reconstruction loan program. The answer from the
feds was no.
On March 17, I questioned the minister of public of works in the
House and asked why on earth the federal government would offer
federal loans to B.C. with interest rates so high that the
province would be better off accessing them on the open market.
Instead of admitting that the offer was hypocritical at best, the
federal minister's response was that the issue required further
study.
Despite all these efforts and despite the heartfelt need of
thousands of desperate homeowners, the Liberal government has yet
to act. Empty expressions of concern do not contribute one bit
to the repairs that are needed to get these homeowners back on a
secure footing. The feds have even refused to partner with the
province in assisting housing co-ops that are facing the same
problems, many of which were built under federal housing
programs.
On April 24, the Government of British Columbia announced that
housing co-ops could apply for provincial assistance. Clearly
the Government of B.C. is helping resolve this terrible
situation, but the question remains where is the federal
government.
The Liberal government in Ottawa has turned its back on
thousands of leaky condo owners in B.C. left stranded as their
assets literally drain away. It is a shameful ploy that once
again shuffles the interest of western Canadians to the bottom of
the deck.
Once and for all I ask the federal government to provide support
and to participate responsibly in the program to help desperate
B.C. owners of leaky condos.
Ms. Carolyn Parrish (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Public Works and Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as
the Minister responsible for Canada Mortgage and Housing
Corporation has already indicated in the House, the government is
very concerned about the hardships that many owners of British
Columbia's moisture damaged condominiums are facing.
It is the responsibility of the provinces to establish building
codes and of the municipalities to inspect and enforce these
codes.
1835
As the national housing agency CMHC has been working in
co-operation with others involved in housing research, design,
construction and regulation to determine what improvements need
to be made to design and building practices to eliminate these
moisture related problems for the future.
Earlier this year the Barrett commission report provided a wide
range of recommendations on how to improve the situation for
condominium owners. The report called for CMHC to double
residential rehabilitation assistance program funding for British
Columbia. The Government of Canada did this for fiscal year
1998-99. In addition to providing more RRAP funds, the
Government of Canada has also offered $75 million in bridge
financing for the reconstruction fund that was mentioned by the
member opposite.
CMHC is also working toward solutions to resolve the issue
through our National Housing Act mortgage loan insurance. Some
home owners with moisture damaged units have NHA insured
mortgages. These individuals may have access to a number of
financial options. Applications will be assessed by the approved
lenders and CMHC on a case by case basis.
In addition to assisting home owners who currently have an NHA
insured loan, CMHC has negotiated with the British Columbia's
home protection office to provide mortgage insurance for their
provincial program.
I should point out that it is the position of the government
that tax relief or a tax subsidy as suggested by the Barrett
commission would not be an equitable option for all Canadians.
INTERNATIONAL TRADE
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure as a
former resident of British Columbia to ask a follow-up question
in our late show today. On March 25 I asked:
Last week U.S. customs announced that it was planning to
reclassify Canadian exports of rougher headed products and
subject them to strict quota limitations, thereby putting
thousands of jobs in British Columbia at risk.
Will the government commit today to fight this blatant attempt
to break international tariff rules and to ensure market access
for the important products and protect forestry jobs?
Here is the response from the hon. Minister of International
Trade who said with crocodile tears:
Basically he sounded like Churchill for a second: We will fight
them on the beaches. We will fight them in the trenches. We
will fight them all the way.
To be completely honest, we could stretch this to Christmas
trees exported from Nova Scotia. We could talk about the salmon
disputes with Alaska and the United States.
It is quite obvious the United States does not respect Canada
when it comes to international trade deals or rulings of any
kind. It looks at us like a lap dog and walks over us. The
rougher headed lumber is a classic example of that.
The government tried to put through Bill C-55, and look at all
the hubbub it caused. It is quite clear that the current
Minister of International Trade has absolutely no standing with
the United States government because it continuously walks all
over us in everything we do.
My suggestion to the hon. parliamentary secretary who will
answer this question is that instead of the international trade
minister looking after his future occupation, whatever that will
be, he should start concentrating on Canadian jobs and Canadian
exports in order to protect those jobs, especially in interior
and coastal B.C.
When will the government actually stand up for Canadian workers
and Canadian towns, especially when it comes to the lumber
industry? Being a former resident of British Columbia, I may say
it is an absolutely beautiful province. Just like in Nova Scotia
those people have a right to live, work, access resources and
export them worldwide and not just to the United States.
We deserve to be respected. Our government should be fighting
harder for those people in British Columbia.
Ms. Eleni Bakopanos (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
for more than 17 years the politically influential U.S. softwood
lumber industry has sought action by the U.S. government to
restrict Canadian access to the U.S. lumber market. On that
point the member was right.
The hon. member, however, may be unaware that Canada won the
last softwood lumber dispute with the U.S. in 1994, so we are not
lap dogs.
1840
It was this defeat and the subsequent threat by the U.S.
industry to file a new countervailing duty case that gave rise to
the softwood lumber agreement. The industry and provinces wanted
to avoid another long and costly legal battle with an uncertain
outcome, hence their advocacy and support for the 1996 softwood
lumber agreement with the U.S.
Let me assure the hon. member that the government is very
concerned with actions by the U.S. customs service to reclassify
lumber products that are currently exempted from the softwood
lumber agreement. We are sparing no effort, as was stated by the
minister, to counter these reclassifications.
To bring the hon. member up to date, last week Canadian and U.S.
officials held a meeting under the softwood lumber agreement
dispute settlement mechanism. We outlined our objections to the
U.S. proposal to reclassify rougher headed lumber. Moreover, we
have already signalled our intention to raise this
reclassification at the World Customs Organization.
The hon. member likely knows that we are already challenging the
U.S. customs reclassification of drilled studs at the World
Customs Organization.
Let there be no misunderstanding. The government will
vigorously oppose all attempts by the U.S. to expand unilaterally
the coverage of the softwood lumber agreement.
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The motion to adjourn the
House is now deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly, this
House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 2 p.m., pursuant to
Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 6.41 p.m.)