36th Parliament, 1st Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 227
CONTENTS
Wednesday, May 12, 1999
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| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
| CHRONIC IMMUNOLOGICAL AND NEUROLOGICAL DISEASES
|
| Mr. Janko Peric |
| TRADE
|
| Mr. Deepak Obhrai |
| CHRONIC FATIGUE SYNDROME DAY
|
| Hon. Andy Scott |
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| CANADA HEALTH DAY
|
| Mr. Bernard Patry |
| THÉRÈSE MARTIN SCHOOL IN JOLIETTE
|
| Mr. René Laurin |
| TEAM CANADA
|
| Mrs. Marlene Jennings |
| TAXATION
|
| Mr. Monte Solberg |
| NORTH AMERICAN FREE TRADE AGREEMENT
|
| Ms. Aileen Carroll |
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| SEMAINE QUÉBÉCOISE DE LA FAMILLE
|
| Mrs. Christiane Gagnon |
| HMCS EASTVIEW
|
| Mr. Hec Clouthier |
| FIFTY WAYS TO LEAVE YOUR JAILER
|
| Mr. Gary Lunn |
| WINDSOR—ST. CLAIR
|
| Mr. Rick Limoges |
| NURSING
|
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
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| HEALTH CARE
|
| Mr. John Herron |
| FÉDÉRATION DE L'ÂGE D'OR DE LA MAURICIE
|
| Mr. Yves Rocheleau |
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
| TAXATION
|
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
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| Mr. Preston Manning |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
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| MINISTER OF HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| Mr. Michel Gauthier |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| Mr. Michel Gauthier |
| IMMIGRATION
|
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
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| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| NATIONAL DEFENCE
|
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
| Mr. Robert Bertrand |
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
| Mr. Robert Bertrand |
| TAXATION
|
| Mr. Monte Solberg |
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| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Monte Solberg |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| MINISTER OF HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. Paul Crête |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| Mr. Paul Crête |
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
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| HEALTH
|
| Mr. Grant Hill |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| Mr. Grant Hill |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| UNITED NATIONS HIGH COMMISSIONER FOR REFUGEES
|
| Mr. Daniel Turp |
| Hon. Diane Marleau |
| Mr. Daniel Turp |
| Hon. Diane Marleau |
| HEALTH
|
| Mr. Reed Elley |
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| Hon. Allan Rock |
| Mr. Reed Elley |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| COPYRIGHT BOARD
|
| Mrs. Francine Lalonde |
| Hon. John Manley |
| MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY
|
| Mr. Gurbax Singh Malhi |
| Mr. Stan Dromisky |
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. John Cummins |
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| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. John Cummins |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| PUBLISHING INDUSTRY
|
| Ms. Wendy Lill |
| Hon. Sheila Copps |
| Ms. Wendy Lill |
| Hon. Sheila Copps |
| CANADIAN MILITIA
|
| Mr. David Price |
| Mr. Robert Bertrand |
| Mr. David Price |
| Mr. Robert Bertrand |
| THE NURSING PROFESSION
|
| Mrs. Karen Redman |
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| Hon. Allan Rock |
| FISHERIES AND OCEANS
|
| Mr. Gary Lunn |
| Hon. David Anderson |
| OFFICE OF ENERGY EFFICIENCY
|
| Mr. Pierre de Savoye |
| Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
| THE ENVIRONMENT
|
| Mr. Rick Laliberte |
| Hon. Christine Stewart |
| ROYAL NEWFOUNDLAND REGIMENT
|
| Mr. Norman Doyle |
| Mr. Robert Bertrand |
| FISHERIES
|
| Mr. Gary Lunn |
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| Hon. David Anderson |
| Mr. Yvan Bernier |
| Hon. David Anderson |
| DEVCO
|
| Mr. Peter Mancini |
| Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
| NATIONAL DEFENCE
|
| Mr. Norman Doyle |
| Mr. Robert Bertrand |
| PRESENCE IN GALLERY
|
| The Speaker |
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| POINTS OF ORDER
|
| Minister of Finance
|
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
| Grey Whale Fishing Licence
|
| Mr. Gary Lunn |
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
| INTERNATIONAL TREATIES
|
| Mr. Julian Reed |
| GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
|
| Mr. Mauril Bélanger |
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Official Languages
|
| Hon. Sheila Finestone |
| Procedure and House Affairs
|
| Mr. Mauril Bélanger |
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| Justice and Human Rights
|
| Mr. John Maloney |
| TERRY FOX DAY ACT
|
| Bill C-512. Introduction and first reading
|
| Ms. Colleen Beaumier |
| PETITIONS
|
| Gasoline Additives
|
| Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur |
| The Senate
|
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
| Marriage
|
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
| Fisheries
|
| Mr. Yvan Bernier |
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| Marriage
|
| Mr. David Iftody |
| The Senate
|
| Mr. John Solomon |
| Mr. Chris Axworthy |
| Fisheries
|
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
| Child Sex Offenders
|
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
| Canada Post
|
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
| The Senate
|
| Mr. Nelson Riis |
| QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
| Mr. Mauril Bélanger |
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
|
| Mr. Mauril Bélanger |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| CANADIAN ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION ACT, 1999
|
| Bill C-32. Report stage
|
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| Speaker's Ruling
|
| The Speaker |
| Motions in amendment
|
| Mr. Bill Gilmour |
| Motion No. 1
|
| Hon. Andy Mitchell |
| Motion No. 2
|
| Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
| Motion No. 3
|
| Mr. Bill Gilmour |
| Motion No. 13
|
| Hon. Andy Mitchell |
| Motion No. 14
|
| Mr. Rick Laliberte |
| Motions Nos. 26 and 61
|
| Mr. Bill Gilmour |
| Motion No. 62
|
| Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
| Motion No. 63
|
| Hon. Andy Mitchell |
| Motion No. 64
|
| Mr. John Herron |
| Motion No. 65
|
| Mr. Bill Gilmour |
| Motion No. 66
|
| Hon. Andy Mitchell |
| Motion No. 67
|
| Mr. Bill Gilmour |
| Motions Nos. 68 and 71
|
| Mr. Rick Laliberte |
| Motion No. 83
|
| Mr. John Herron |
| Motion No. 84
|
| Mr. Bill Gilmour |
| Motion No. 85
|
| Hon. Andy Mitchell |
| Motion No. 86
|
| Mr. Bill Gilmour |
| Motion No. 87
|
| Hon. Andy Mitchell |
| Motion No. 88
|
| Mr. John Herron |
| Motion No. 89
|
| Mr. Bill Gilmour |
| Motion No. 90
|
| Hon. Andy Mitchell |
| Motion No. 91
|
| Mr. John Herron |
| Motion No. 93
|
| Mr. Bill Gilmour |
| Motion No. 94
|
| Hon. Andy Mitchell |
| Motion No. 95
|
| Mr. John Herron |
| Motion No. 96
|
| Mr. Bill Gilmour |
| Motion No. 97
|
| Mr. John Herron |
| Motions Nos. 101 and 108
|
| Mr. Bill Gilmour |
| Motion No. 109
|
| Hon. Andy Mitchell |
| Motion No. 110
|
| Mr. John Herron |
| Motion No. 111
|
| Mr. Bill Gilmour |
| Motion No. 112
|
| Hon. Andy Mitchell |
| Motion No. 113
|
| Mr. John Herron |
| Motions Nos. 115 and 117
|
| Mr. Bill Gilmour |
| Motion No. 118
|
| Hon. Andy Mitchell |
| Motion No. 122
|
| Mr. John Herron |
| Motion No. 123
|
| Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew |
| Motion No. 128
|
| Mr. Bill Gilmour |
| Motions Nos. 130, 132, 135 and 206
|
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| Ms. Paddy Torsney |
1545
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| Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
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| Mr. Rick Laliberte |
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1610
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| Mr. John Herron |
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1625
| Mr. Rick Casson |
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| Hon. Charles Caccia |
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1645
| Ms. Hélène Alarie |
1650
| Mr. Clifford Lincoln |
1655
1700
| PUBLIC SECTOR PENSION INVESTMENT BOARD ACT
|
| Bill C-78—Notice of Time Allocation Motion
|
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| CANADIAN ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION ACT, 1999
|
| Bill C-32. Report stage
|
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
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1710
| Mrs. Karen Kraft Sloan |
1715
1720
| Mr. Bernard Bigras |
1725
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| PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
| CRIMINAL CODE
|
| Mr. Maurice Vellacott |
| Motion No. 528
|
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| Mr. Ted McWhinney |
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1755
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
1800
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| Mr. Gordon Earle |
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| Mr. Maurice Vellacott |
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(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 227
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Wednesday, May 12, 1999
The House met at 2 p.m.
Prayers
1400
The Speaker: As is our practice on Wednesday we will now
sing O Canada, and we will be led by the hon. member for
Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore.
[Editor's Note: Members sang the national anthem]
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
CHRONIC IMMUNOLOGICAL AND NEUROLOGICAL DISEASES
Mr. Janko Peric (Cambridge, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, May 12 is
International Awareness Day for Chronic Immunological and
Neurological Diseases such as chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, gulf
war and multiple chemical sensitivity syndromes.
These devastating illnesses are striking a growing number of
Canadians who suffer from cognitive problems, chronic muscle and
joint pain, extremely reduced stamina and numerous other symptoms
which leave sufferers ill and bedridden for years at a time. Most
sufferers are unable to work because of their pain. However,
their suffering is not only physical. A lack of public knowledge
about these disorders often causes sufferers their jobs and
disability benefits.
A constituent, mother and very close friend of mine, Leni
Spooner, suffers from fibromyalgia syndrome. She will live with
this condition for the rest of her life. Her 16 year old daughter
was also recently diagnosed with the same disorder.
I urge all members of parliament to spread the word about these
devastating conditions so that people like Leni and her daughter
may suffer a little less.
* * *
TRADE
Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, once
again the Government of Alberta is taking a leading role in
shaping the future of our country.
Recently Premier Klein invited the governors of several
northwest U.S. states to Drumheller, Alberta for the annual
western premiers conference to be held later this month. Premier
Klein's mission is to persuade American politicians that there
are provinces within Canada that support a growing and prosperous
trade relationship with the United States.
Time and time again, this Liberal government has failed to take
a proactive role in addressing contentious trade issues. The
split-run magazine issue and Canada's most favoured nation status
for U.S. defence contracts are just a couple of the disputes
which come to mind.
The official opposition and the provinces are to be commended
for taking the lead in ensuring a cordial trade relationship with
the United States.
* * *
CHRONIC FATIGUE SYNDROME DAY
Hon. Andy Scott (Fredericton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, today
is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Day in the province of New Brunswick.
Chronic fatigue syndrome, or CFS, is a debilitating and complex
disorder characterized by profound fatigue that is not improved
by rest and may be worsened by physical or mental activity. The
cause or causes of CFS have not been identified and no specific
diagnostic tests are available.
This is a real disease that deserves real research in order to
find a cause and cure. Its affects are made worse by the fact it
is commonly not recognized within programs that are otherwise
available.
In past years in my riding of Fredericton I have participated in
the annual elephant walk which raises money and awareness for
CFS.
This year's walk will take place in the town of Oromocto on May
30. I urge all adults and children in the riding of Fredericton
to help this worthwhile cause, because together we can work to
make life better for those suffering from chronic fatigue
syndrome.
* * *
1405
[Translation]
CANADA HEALTH DAY
Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
today, May 12, is Canada Health Day. It is also the anniversary
of Florence Nightingale's birth.
Canada Health Day is sponsored jointly by the Canadian Public
Health Association and the Canadian Healthcare Association.
The 1999 campaign highlights three important environments: home,
work and nature.
By working together to make where we are a healthy place to be,
we can ensure a promising future for ourselves and future
generations.
Let us take this opportunity to thank and congratulate the staff
of Canada's health care organizations, facilities and services.
Happy celebrations.
* * *
THÉRÈSE MARTIN SCHOOL IN JOLIETTE
Mr. René Laurin (Joliette, BQ): Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasure
that I draw attention today to the presence in the gallery of
Amnesty International student group 731 from Thérèse Martin
school in Joliette.
These young people collected more than 2,000 signatures from
people opposed to trafficking in human organs, to which
Guatemalan street children are prey. Their petition calls on
the government of this country to take action to ensure the
safety of these children, and of the humanitarian aid workers
trying to help them.
I wish to congratulate the man who spearheaded this project,
Marcel Lacroix, and the students who took part: Marie-Pier
Bellemare, Marie-Élaine Sabourin, Jean-Luc Coutu, Jean-Pierre
Coutu, Éric Lévesque and Francis Giraldeau, not to mention Dulus
Racine, their spiritual adviser on this worthy endeavour.
The exceptional interest the young students at Thérèse Martin
school have taken in children from a less privileged country
deserves our heartfelt admiration. May their example pave the
way for other humanitarian initiatives to put a stop to this
unacceptable practice to which young Guatemalans fall victim.
* * *
TEAM CANADA
Mrs. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, next September, the Prime Minister will leave on a
trade mission with Team Canada to promote Canada's economic
interests in Australia and Japan.
The mission will focus on seven sectors identified as priorities
by our government: aerospace, energy and natural resources,
agriculture and food biotechnology, health care,
telecommunications and information technologies and, finally,
education and the environment.
This fourth trip to the Asia-Pacific region speaks to Team
Canada's interest in developing trade ties in the area.
It is one specific way in which the government can promote the
professionalism and know-how of Canadians and Quebeckers.
* * *
[English]
TAXATION
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, here
is yet another poem from an overtaxed Canadian:
Now he's a common, common man.
Tax him. Tax him all you can.
Tax his house, tax his bed,
Tax the bald spot on his head.
Tax his bread, tax his meat,
Tax his shoes clear off his feet.
Tax his pipe and tax his smoke,
Teach him government is no joke.
Tax his “Henry”, tax his gas,
Tax the road that he must pass.
Tax the farmer, tax his fowl,
Tax the dog and tax his howl.
Tax his plow, and tax his clothes,
Tax the rag that wipes his nose.
Tax his pig and tax his squeal,
Tax his boots run down at the heel.
Tax his cow and tax its calf,
Tax him if he dares to laugh.
Tax his barns and tax his lands,
Tax the blisters on his hands.
Tax the water and tax the air,
Tax the sunlight, if you dare.
Tax the living, tax the dead,
Tax the unborn before they're fed.
Tax them all and tax them well,
And do your best to make life hell.
* * *
[Translation]
NORTH AMERICAN FREE TRADE AGREEMENT
Ms. Aileen Carroll (Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the Departments of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
recently distributed a fine document in celebration of the first
five years of life of the North American Free Trade Agreement.
[English]
The report presents a scorecard of impressive statistics
including a marked increase in trade with the U.S. and Mexico.
Added to these global data are seven success stories
highlighting quotes from spokespersons in various sectors.
What concerns me is that while I too am committed to open door
trade policy, the reports of the impact of NAFTA are highly
selective. To obtain a more complete picture we need to see the
other side indicating the compromises to our environmental
protection policies and our heritage and cultural strategies.
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[Translation]
Even if it is difficult to isolate the causes and effects of
trade agreements, we have a duty to aim for the utmost
transparency, and to present both the negative and the positive
aspects of the situation.
* * *
SEMAINE QUÉBÉCOISE DE LA FAMILLE
Mrs. Christiane Gagnon (Quebec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, this year,
the theme of the Semaine québécoise de la famille is “families:
a social strength”.
In the past few decades there have been major changes in the
family landscape, but the family still remains a keystone of the
socio-economic structure of Quebec and of the psycho-affective
development of the individual.
Despite the federal government's never-ending efforts to weaken
social programs with its see-sawing social transfers, and its
preference for visibility for the maple leaf over the needs of
the clientele concerned, Quebec is the province with the
greatest investment in services to the family and to children.
Because of its integrated approach, Quebec's family policy
constitutes an innovative solution and offers a real model for
the rest of Canada. We in Quebec are justifiably proud of the
priority given to a family policy which respects the multiple
realities and fundamental needs of families.
* * *
[English]
HMCS EASTVIEW
Mr. Hec Clouthier (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, it is indeed a distinct honour and privilege to
salute the World War II naval veterans of HMCS Eastview who
have travelled from across the continent to be here today.
The HMCS Eastview escorted convoys from St. John's to
Ireland through cold treacherous U-boat infested waters during
the bloody bitter Battle of the Atlantic.
The Royal Canadian Navy lost 24 warships and suffered 2,024
fatal casualties. However, the Eastview's greatest
distinction is the fact that she never ever lost a warship.
* * *
FIFTY WAYS TO LEAVE YOUR JAILER
Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
following the revelation that there are 1,000 convicts at large
in this country we have come to the conclusion that there must be
50 ways to leave your jailer.
You can slip through the cracks, Jack,
Break out of the can, Stan,
You don't need to be coy, Roy, it's not hard to get free.
You can hop on the bus, Gus,
And get lost when you can, man,
And you don't need a key, Lee, to set yourself free.
You can walk through the gate, Nate,
Or hitch a free ride, Clyde,
There are so many ways, Jay,
To set yourself free.
You won't have to kill, Phil,
Because the system is lax, Jack,
And there's no locks to pick, Dick,
To get out on the street.
In no time you'll be gone, John,
Say goodbye with a wave, Dave,
You don't even need luck, Chuck,
To walk away from the clink.
Forget the RCMP, G.
They have no funding in B.C.,
It's so easy to get free,
Under Lawrence MacAulay.
The Speaker: Members should not use each other's names in the
statements.
* * *
WINDSOR—ST. CLAIR
Mr. Rick Limoges (Windsor—St. Clair, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I now represent the riding of Windsor—St. Clair because of the
untimely demise of Shaughnessy Cohen whom members all came to
know so well.
I have no intention of replacing Shaughnessy. Frankly, I would
not know where to start. It is however my intention to serve
the people of Windsor—St. Clair and all of Canada to the best of
my ability.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank the many
volunteers, family and friends who helped to ensure my victory at
the polls on April 12.
I can say firsthand that our citizens
expect the work of the government to continue. They expect us to
deliver services and legislation in a balanced and caring way
while reducing the tax burden that each of us is feeling.
I would also like to thank the members of the House of every
political stripe, and the hard working and diligent staff
members who have made me feel so welcome.
* * *
NURSING
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, every
member of the House at one time or another has experienced the
compassion and skill of our Canadian nurses.
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Today, International Nurses Day, we honour these hardworking
women and men on the frontlines of health care. The best way to
show our gratitude to the people who put care and compassion into
health care is to improve their working conditions, hire more
full time nurses, improve their training, reward them fairly for
their work including pay equity, and, most of all, listen to and
address their concerns about the quality of care in our
beleaguered health care system.
If we take seriously our responsibility to do that, nurses in
Canada will be properly recognized and rewarded for their
critically important work, and all of us who use health care
services in the country will be the beneficiaries.
* * *
HEALTH CARE
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC): Mr. Speaker, there is
a serious staffing situation in the province of New Brunswick
which can mean a serious downturn in patient care. Because of
the high demand for radiation therapists across the country,
provinces are competing for qualified staff to fill vacancies.
Sadly, radiation therapists in New Brunswick are the lowest paid
in the country. For that reason many are seeking better paying
jobs in other provinces. Already the province has lost four
people and one more is planning to leave.
The people of New Brunswick deserve access to qualified health
care providers. We need to stress the importance of retaining
our qualified, experienced radiation therapists in New Brunswick
to care for the hundreds of cancer patients who are in desperate
need of treatment. We have an obligation to those patients to
ensure that this alarming situation does not create an exodus to
the west or stateside and that our health care workers remain in
the province.
I challenge Premier Thériault to address this issue. If he does
not, Bernard Lord will.
* * *
[Translation]
FÉDÉRATION DE L'ÂGE D'OR DE LA MAURICIE
Mr. Yves Rocheleau (Trois-Rivières, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
Fédération de l'âge d'or de la Mauricie is this year celebrating
its 30th anniversary in Trois-Rivières.
Indeed, it was in 1969 that senior citizens met to bring
together people 50 years of age and older proposing activities
to suit their needs and interests.
The Fédération de l'âge d'or de la Mauricie is the birthplace of
all seniors' groups in Quebec. On May 19 and 20, thousands of
people will gather in Trois-Rivières under the banner “La
Fédération, in tune with society for all ages”.
As the member for Trois-Rivières, I am proud to pay tribute to
all those attending. In this, the international year of older
persons, I can assure them they have the support of the Bloc
Quebecois in defending their interests and in demanding fairness
and respect from this government.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
TAXATION
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, six weeks ago I met an auto plant worker in southern
Ontario who had just received a paycheque for overtime work.
He was madder than a boiled owl because the amount the
government had ripped out of his paycheque was equal to the
amount that was left for him and his family. He said he thought
he was working for Chrysler but it turns out he is working half
time for the federal government.
When will the Prime Minister provide substantive broad based tax
relief for the overtaxed workers of Canada?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we have reduced taxes. A surtax of 3% which was put in
place by the previous government has been taken away. We have
reduced taxes for a family of four with two earners and an income
of $60,000. They have seen a reduction in their taxes of
virtually 10%. The same family with an income of $100,000 has
seen its taxes cut by 4.8%, and we have reduced the EI premium by
20%.
We have balanced the books and so on. The people of Canada are
much better off today than they were when we took over.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, if the Prime Minister gave that answer to that auto
plant worker, the worker would laugh in disbelief.
While the government is promising $16.5 billion in tax relief by
the year 2002, like it promised to get rid of the GST, in fact
what it has done is collect over $42 billion in tax increases
since it took office. That is why that worker is paying half of
his overtime pay in tax deductions.
The Prime Minister could give every worker in the country a pay
increase this year simply by reducing the federal tax rip-off
from paycheques. Why does he not do so?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, 600,000 Canadians who paid taxes before we reduced them
are not paying taxes any more. We have moved in many other
fields, as I explained earlier.
1420
Of course for the opposition there is only one problem. It
thinks it will solve everything with just that. However, the
balanced approach is to have some tax relief and at the same time
to help productivity in the land and to resolve social problems.
That is the way to have a better society. There is not only one
avenue to having a good situation in our country.
Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the Prime Minister runs a tax system which not only
gouges workers but particularly gouges low income workers with
almost $4 billion per year in incomes taxes from Canadians who
make $20,000 a year or less and over $2 billion per year in
payroll taxes from workers who make $20,000 or less.
The tax policies of the government have become one of the chief
contributors to poverty in Canada. How can this tax rich
government, which is sitting on a $7 billion to $15 billion
surplus, justify ripping $6 billion a year out of the pockets of
the working poor?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, as I said, a two earner family with two children making
$60,000 is paying $620 less this year than it was paying two
years ago. Also it is paying $270 less in EI premiums. That
gives the family $900 more in its pocket which it did not have
before. It is the right direction.
To have a proper society we must not look only at one side of
the ledger. We must look at all the problems of society, which
is what my party is doing.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the government talks about a balanced approach. Here is some
balance. It ripped $21 billion out of health care and social
services and then it put $11 billion back in. It ripped out $42
billion more in taxes and then it says it will give us $16.5
billion back in tax relief. It looks to me like this is the new
Liberal math, and taxpayers just do not get it.
Why does the Prime Minister not just get up off his big fat
surplus and give taxpayers the money back that he owes them?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, what a compliment. We are standing in the House after
five and a half years when we started with a $42 billion deficit.
The country was facing bankruptcy and we have solved it. Now the
opposition pretends that we are doing too well.
We will spend a lot more money in health care, $11.5 billion in
the next five years. We have invested in innovation. We have
invested in federal health care programs. We have invested in
child tax credits. We have done a lot of things so the country
is in much better shape.
Thanks again to the member of the opposition for saying that we
have done quite well in the last five and half years.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the Prime Minister talks about a surplus as though it is some
kind of Liberal largesse. Taxpayers are the ones who looked
after that. They looked after balancing the budget. It was not
the Liberals.
Every Canadian is paying $2,000 more in taxes now than they were
in 1993. Those are the figures. People have just finished doing
their taxes so they know that.
The Prime Minister has a million and one excuses for why he
needs these high taxes but he keeps getting mixed up with the
facts. They just keep getting in his way.
I would like the Prime Minister to stand in his place and tell
Canadians why they have such a big surplus and he still wants to
keep his mud hooks on it. Why is that?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the reason Canadians are paying somewhat more taxes is
because they have a lot more revenue. That is not a problem.
That is what happened. It is because interest rates are the
lowest they have been in a long time and productivity is
increasing.
Perhaps I could quote somebody the Reformers know quite well who
had this to say about the opposition's chances in the next
federal election:
First, be realistic. There is no way that either the Reform or
the UA will beat the Liberals in the 2001 election. Voters do
not turf out governments that have presided over economic growth,
new jobs and a balanced budget.
This was said by a guy by the name of Ted Morton, senator in
waiting, member of the Reform Party.
* * *
1425
[Translation]
MINISTER OF HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
despite the damning criticism of Canada's information
commissioner, the Minister of Human Resources Development boasts
about the government's transparency and has even gone so far as
to say that Quebeckers in general have great regard for that
transparency.
How can a minister accused by the information commissioner of
defying the Access to Information Act for 74 days and putting
his own interests ahead of those of the public boast about the
government's transparency in the House?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let us step back a bit.
First, the documents requested by the journalist were provided.
Second, there was a delay, for which I am sorry. This delay was
due to the fact that my department has twice the number of
access to information requests to process that it had one year
ago.
We are doing everything possible to meet demand and to ensure
that there are no further delays. This is truly making a
mountain out of a molehill. There is no substance to the
charge.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, it is
a molehill that the information commissioner finds unacceptable.
The minister held on to these documents during the quota debate
to keep the House in the dark.
He responded 95 days after the legal deadline. That is four and
a half months during which the information was withheld and
concealed, two and a half of them in the minister's office.
How can this minister talk to us about transparency when he has
knowingly contravened the Access to Information Act, an act of
this parliament?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I must say that the leader of
the Bloc Quebecois is putting on quite a performance today.
I can assure the House that neither my office nor my officials
ever knowingly held up this information. The process is totally
transparent.
I admit there was a small delay, but I can honestly tell the
House that we are taking very specific measures to ensure that
this most admirable legislation of the Parliament of Canada,
legislation which does Canadians proud, continues to be
enforced.
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the minister is
so concerned about issues of integrity and honesty among the
unemployed that he has established an integrity branch in his
department, with quotas for harassing the unemployed.
This is the same minister who defies the Access to Information
Act when documents requested could put him in hot water.
How can the minister demand integrity, honesty and transparency
from the unemployed when he allows himself to defy the Access to
Information Act and to deny us this information?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, neither my office nor my
department has knowingly delayed the process in this case. We
have complied with the Access to Information Act to the letter.
We will continue to do so, unless there are twice as many
requests this year as last. We do miss one sometimes.
I can assure you that my department's batting average is
excellent. A look at the whole issue will make that clear.
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, their batting
average may be excellent, but they have recovered so many
millions they have exceeded the quotas. We knew that already,
the minister did not need to tell us.
While the minister was in hot water in this House, while he was
denying the existence, as we will recall, of quotas in his
system, how, according to him, was it his office voluntarily hid
documents proving that he was lying?
The Speaker: I would ask the hon. member for Roberval to
withdraw the word “lying”.
Mr. Michel Gauthier: Mr. Speaker, I withdraw the word. I will
simply say that what the minister was doing was completely—
The Speaker: The leader of the New Democratic Party.
* * *
[English]
IMMIGRATION
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I would
like to welcome the Prime Minister back from Borden where he had
a chance to meet with refugee families, play a little basketball
and kiss a little concrete. Let us say he was quick on the
rebound.
1430
All levity aside, surely after being exposed firsthand to the
grim experiences of these refugees, the Prime Minister is more
sensitized to the unfairness of imposing a head tax on refugees
who have lost everything and have nothing.
Will the Prime Minister today assure these refugees and all
refugees coming to Canada that if they choose to stay they will
not have to pay?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am very disappointed to hear the New Democratic Party
trying to raise a little problem which might happen if the
refugees decide to become Canadian citizens. They are here as
refugees.
I was very proud to be there and to see how well the refugees
are being received by the dozens of volunteers who are working
there. The refugees are very happy to be in Canada and are
appreciative of what we are doing.
I told the refugees that we do not like being involved in the
situation in Yugoslavia, but the reason we are involved is
because we want them to have the opportunity to go back home to
Kosovo with freedom and protection.
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, this is
not a little problem that might arise. This is a problem now
that faces every refugee who comes to Canada.
The finance minister introduced this odious head tax as part of
his harsh medicine in 1995. The UN high commissioner for
refugees has condemned it. The Canadian Human Rights Commission
has condemned it.
How does the Prime Minister justify that Canada remains the only
industrialized nation in the world to shake down penniless
refugees for $1,000 a head?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, this policy was introduced some years ago. It is a
policy that seems to be working because the people who are
involved accept it.
The problem is not that people are refusing to come to Canada.
People who know that they have to contribute to the cost of the
operation are still arriving by the hundreds of thousands. The
problem we face is that too many people want to come in and we
cannot receive them all.
I think the hon. member is trying to score political points with
this. Canada is a country that welcomes more immigrants per
capita than any other nation in the world.
* * *
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, we have
been informed that approximately 20% of the troops sent to Kosovo
are reservists.
In an internal report it is suggested that the Minister of
National Defence is about to cut our reserves from 51 units to 20
in the infantry, from 15 units to 7 in the artillery and from 17
units to 10 in the armoured unit. He has already cut the
military from 80,000 to 60,000.
Is the Minister of National Defence and his staff about to cut
the strength of the militia in half? If so, what can we expect
if another emergency arises?
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the reserves are an
important pillar of the Canadian forces. They play a wide
variety of roles, both at home and abroad. They have provided
assistance during national emergencies and disasters, such as the
ice storm and the Manitoba floods.
The document that the hon. member refers to is strictly a
working paper. As yet, no decision has been made. The minister
will make the final decision.
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, I am on
my feet today with regard to the reserves because we know how
important they are.
The internal document outlines the government's plan to cut the
services. The document states that these cuts will “result in a
reserve structure that will not be viable to meet current or
future needs”' if they make those cuts.
Will the Prime Minister give us his assurance that not one
reserve unit will be cut or amalgamated out of existence, or will
the government eliminate the Canadian forces altogether?
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would just like to
state again that this is not a government paper, it is just a
working paper. There were some suggestions made by DND
personnel, but the final decision will be made by the minister.
* * *
TAXATION
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the
Prime Minister seems to be interested in quotes, so I will quote
from the intergovernmental affairs minister “I am for the
creation of a united alternative that could challenge a national
party like ours, the Liberal Party”.
Obviously, the intergovernmental affairs minister does not share
the same views as the Prime Minister.
1435
Speaking of inconsistencies, it is day two of American tax
freedom day and Canadians are still sending their paycheques to
our taxman.
Meanwhile, the Liberal government sits on top of one of the
largest surpluses in Canadian history and tells us it cannot
afford a tax cut.
Those surpluses belong to overtaxed Canadians. They do not
belong to the government or the Prime Minister. When is the
government going to give that money back to taxpayers?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, of course we want good national parties in Canada.
However, the leader of the Reform Party, in trying to unite the
right, managed to divide his own party in two. Rather than
having two parties on the right, we now have three. If Reform
keeps it that way we will be here for a long time.
We will continue having a balanced approach on taxes and social
and economic programs in the country because that is the way to
do it. We do not want to be single-minded about how to solve
problems. We want to care about everybody, especially those—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Medicine Hat.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
maybe the Prime Minister should concern himself with his own
party. He has the finance minister and the industry minister
both gunning for him lately. He had better be careful. There is
a lot to divide in that party.
The Prime Minister says that he wants to help poor Canadians.
Why is it then that every year the government takes $6 billion
out of the pockets of Canadians making $20,000 or less? That is
an inconsistency. If he cares so much, why is he taxing the life
out of low income Canadians?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we have increased the tax exemption for people at the
bottom end, and 600,000 people who paid taxes two years ago do
not pay taxes any more. We are making much progress.
When we run a government we have to be preoccupied with all
sectors of the economy. We have to invest in young people, for
example. That is why we have introduced the millennium
scholarship program. We have invested in innovation because it
is very important for Canada to be ready to compete in the 21st
century. I could go on and on with the good programs of this
party that Reformers do not even read.
* * *
[Translation]
MINISTER OF HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, recently a Quebec minister tendered her
resignation because she felt responsibility for an error
committed as the result of bad advice from her department. As
for the Minister of Human Resources Development, he has gone
against a law of parliament in order to prevent directives that
would have disastrous repercussions for him from becoming known.
Given the principle of ministerial accountability, what choice
does the Minister of Human Resources Development have left?
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I see the hon. member for
Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques is resorting to
humour today, or maybe it is just his usual bad temper showing
through. I do not understand where there can be any parallel
between what he is referring to and the situation today.
The journalists have been provided with the documents they
requested. The only problem is that there was a regrettable
delay because we have twice as many requests as last year. We
need to take steps to remedy this. We are going to do just
that.
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, the letter from the information commissioner
is clear. The minister's office put his interests before those
of the requesting parties and has defied the law all this time.
This is totally unacceptable.
On behalf of the unemployed people who have been harassed, on
behalf of the MPs who have been refused information, and on
behalf of the law that has been broken, I am asking the minister
to take the only appropriate step under the circumstances:
resignation.
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (Minister of Human Resources
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, one would think we were back in
a referendum campaign.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. The hon. Minister of Human
Resources Development.
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew: Mr. Speaker, honestly, I have trouble
taking this seriously, but I shall try.
We are being told again that there are employment insurance
quotas, when that is totally false. What is more, my office has
never deliberately delayed providing information. There was a
regrettable delay and we have taken corrective measures.
But the Bloc Quebecois, the branch plant of the Parti Quebecois,
might perhaps have a look at what is going on in the Government
of Quebec.
We saw to social insurance. There was a target of $100 million
and the same sort of investigation came up with $112 million.
* * *
1440
[English]
HEALTH
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, one excuse
the government uses to justify the high taxes in our country is
medicare. The U.S. government spends more on its public medicaid
and medicare system per person than does the Canadian government;
in fact, $800 per person more.
With taxes in Canada so high, why is medicare spending so low?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
one of the reasons that the Americans spend so much money on
health care is that their system is so inefficient compared to
ours.
We have just announced that over the next five years we are
putting an additional $11.5 billion into the hands of provinces
and they have promised to use it for health care.
We believe in medicare, unlike the Reform Party that would
repeal the Canada Health Act and take the American route. If the
hon. member does not like the American system, why is he arguing
in favour of it?
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, there is
another example of Liberal math. While he was telling us that
the government is putting $11 billion back into medicare, he
quietly forgot to say that the government took $21 billion out
five years before. That is Liberal math, is it not?
This is not just an academic exercise. What has it done to
Canadians? MRI is very valuable to health care. Here is what a
radiologist said about our MRI, “The big shocker is that when
Canada is compared to other countries in terms of MRIs per
capita, we rank at the bottom”.
With taxes in Canada so high, why is medicare spending so low?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the money we have given the provinces should help them address
their responsibilities when it comes to MRIs.
This is not an issue of dollars for the Reform Party. It is not
an issue of technicalities. It is an issue of policy and
philosophy for that party. It does not agree with Canada in our
approach to medicare. It does not agree with the Canada Health
Act. It does not agree with the equity of making health care
available to everybody regardless of what they have in their
wallets. It takes a different approach.
We will never agree with the Reform Party and their American
style approach to medicare.
* * *
[Translation]
UNITED NATIONS HIGH COMMISSIONER FOR REFUGEES
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Mr. Speaker, today,
UNHCR appealed to the international community to honour its
financial commitments and hand over the $66 million promised but
not yet forwarded by the end of May.
Can the Minister of Foreign Affairs tell us whether Canada has
given UNCHR the $5 million promised and whether it undertakes to
hand over before May 31 the additional $20 million it promised
UNCHR on April 22?
Hon. Diane Marleau (Minister for International Cooperation and
Minister responsible for Francophonie, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
Government of Canada always honours its commitments. We have
already forwarded the money promised.
Mr. Daniel Turp (Beauharnois—Salaberry, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
information I obtained only today does not make it clear whether
or not the government has handed over the $5 million.
Did the government hand over the $5 million to UNCHR and, if
not, is there not a credibility problem when a NATO member does
not give UNCHR the money it has promised?
Hon. Diane Marleau (Minister for International Cooperation and
Minister responsible for Francophonie, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we
have delivered the money, but let us remember that many
countries taking part have made grand promises that they have
not kept. Pressure must be brought to bear of these countries.
* * *
[English]
HEALTH
Mr. Reed Elley (Nanaimo—Cowichan, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the Liberals like to say that health care is part of the basic
fabric of Canada. We now see how the Liberals treat the basic
fabric. They ripped $21.4 billion out of the cloth and it is
full of moth holes now. In spite of the $800 more per person
that the U.S. spends on public health care, American taxes are
30% lower than in Canada.
When is the government going to get off its big fat budget
surplus and put the Canadian health care system back on the road
to recovery?
1445
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
just two months ago the government announced that it is
increasing by $11.5 billion over the next five years the amount
of money available to the provinces for health care. Just two
months ago we announced our plans to spend $1.4 billion ourselves
on areas like health research, early intervention with children
to prevent illness and improving health for aboriginal and first
nations throughout this country.
We know where the Reform Party stands. Reform would rip up the
Canada Health Act, turn its back on public health care and opt
for an American style model. We believe that health care is part
of the fabric of this country.
Mr. Reed Elley (Nanaimo—Cowichan, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I
have a brother who would love to have the Minister of Health in
his math class. This is math from the Liberal perspective.
The numbers are real. The government took $21.4 billion out of
health care. It is going to put back $11.5 billion and it is
telling Canadians to be thankful.
The U.S. government spends more per person on public health than
the Canadian government. That is a fact. Canadian taxpayers pay
over 30% more in taxes than their American counterparts. What do
Canadians have to show for it? Waiting lists, delayed surgery,
staffing shortages and the declining health of thousands of
people. Thank you very little, Mr. Health Minister.
When will the government begin to act responsibly—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. The hon. Minister of Health.
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the hon. member seems to like his sums today, so let us try a
number on him which maybe he does not know. The member
apparently likes the American system of health care. The member
did not mention that over 100 million Americans do not have
medical insurance because they cannot afford it. The member did
not mention that there are tens of millions of working American
families who worry that one day they are going to have to choose
between their health and their homes.
If the hon. member likes that system, then he is free to go and
join them. I will tell him one thing, we will never opt for the
American style of health care.
* * *
[Translation]
COPYRIGHT BOARD
Mrs. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the Copyright
Board cannot validly sit according to the Official Languages Act
to hear the important case involving the representatives of the
French language musicians and the cassette producers, because
the Minister of Industry has taken so long to appoint French
speaking commissioners.
When will the Minister of Industry facilitate the operation of
this board, created through the struggles of authors, composers
and interpreters?
Hon. John Manley (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
would say to the member that the hearings of this agency were
not delayed by the fact that there were not enough members.
However, I will be appointing other members and a deputy chair
soon.
* * *
[English]
MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY
Mr. Gurbax Singh Malhi (Bramalea—Gore—Malton—Springdale,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of
Transport.
About one million vehicles are affected by recalls every year
due to a variety of safety concerns. What will the minister do
to get this important information to vehicle dealers and owners
more quickly?
Mr. Stan Dromisky (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for his
question because it deals with an issue that is of concern to
everyone who owns a vehicle in this country.
Transport Canada's first priority is safety. As a result, when
a vehicle manufacturer or importer becomes aware of a safety
related defect they are required under the Motor Vehicle Safety
Act to notify the Department of Transport and to notify in
writing each owner of the affected vehicles. Past experience
shows us that this really works effectively.
In addition, the Department of Transport mails out a monthly
list for recalls to subscribers. I would also like to notify
everyone that they can find this information on the web, by
inputting the make of the vehicle, the model and the year.
* * *
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. John Cummins (Delta—South Richmond, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the government has said that the charter of rights and
freedoms applies to the Nisga'a government. The charter only
applies if the Constitution says it applies.
The Constitution limits the application of the charter to the
federal and provincial governments or their agents.
1450
As the proposed Nisga'a government is neither, I ask the
minister, by what authority does she believe the charter applies
to the Nisga'a government?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, what is clear is that the
charter applies to all Canadians.
As we come to the table as a party in negotiating this important
treaty, it is clear from the federal government's point of view
that the Constitution and the charter of rights apply. We have
worked with the province and with the Nisga'a people to assess
and sort out the application of laws in all areas of the subject
matter pertaining to the treaty.
Mr. John Cummins (Delta—South Richmond, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, the charter does not apply just because the government
says it applies or because it is included in the treaty. The
charter only applies if the Constitution says it does.
For that reason, in the Charlottetown accord, the proposed
section 32.1(c) would have placed aboriginal government under the
charter.
I ask the minister again: By what authority does she believe
the charter applies to the Nisga'a government?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member gets at the
heart of the issue of self-government and local government in the
context of writing treaties in British Columbia.
If there is one thing I know, when I talk to British Columbians
they want to ensure that local decisions are made by local
authorities. That is exactly the case for aboriginal people.
That is why we are very proud of the legislative structure that
has been established in the context of this treaty.
* * *
PUBLISHING INDUSTRY
Ms. Wendy Lill (Dartmouth, NDP): Mr. Speaker, last fall
our cultural community rallied around Bill C-55, spending months
lobbying and participating in public debate. Now we discover
that the bill has been left bobbing in the weeds in the Senate
and the real action is taking place behind closed doors in
Washington. So much for the parliamentary process.
When will the government let Canadians know the content of this
secret deal? Will it allow adequate public debate before signing
on the dotted line?
Hon. Sheila Copps (Minister of Canadian Heritage, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, there is no deal.
Ms. Wendy Lill (Dartmouth, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am only
going by reported newspaper articles. The reported trade-off is
that we allow Canadian advertising in American split-runs and
they put in some Canadian content. I am not convinced that this
protects our magazine industry. In any event, this fundamental
change is taking place without public debate.
If there are some issues around Canadian content and American
ownership on the table, these issues have to come back to
parliament before they are signed on the dotted line. Do we have
any assurance of that?
Hon. Sheila Copps (Minister of Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Yes,
Mr. Speaker.
* * *
[Translation]
CANADIAN MILITIA
Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, PC): Mr. Speaker, the
Canadian army in the first and second world wars was comprised
primarily of militiamen.
Today, the Minister of National Defence is prepared to get rid
of the militia faster than the German army ever did in the two
world wars.
Is the war in Yugoslavia going to be waged on the backs of our
Canadian militia?
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, no. These are two
different issues.
We are currently doing a study of the reserves. However, the
budget for the war in Kosovo is totally another matter.
Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, PC): Mr. Speaker, the
document they are studying is very clear. It even contains a
lot of details.
Does the minister realize that by doing away with the Canadian
militia he will be destroying the cadet corps, the best school
of civics available to our young people?
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, the
document my colleague refers to is a working document.
I assume it will be one of the many documents the minister will
read before making a final decision.
* * *
[English]
THE NURSING PROFESSION
Mrs. Karen Redman (Kitchener Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the Minister of Health.
Since this week is nursing week, can the minister tell the House
what the government has done to encourage the nursing profession,
particularly for the recruitment and retention of nurses?
1455
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the essential role played by nurses in our system is too often
overlooked. The member for Kitchener Centre has been very
instrumental in helping this government do something about it.
I am pleased to announce today, during nursing week, the
appointment of Judith Shamian as executive director of nursing
policy at Health Canada. In this new and important role, Nurse
Shamian, who has an international reputation for her knowledge of
nursing matters, will help the Government of Canada to ensure
that everything it does is consistent with the best interests of
nurses and the interests of the public.
We also created a $25 million nurse fund in the recent budget.
* * *
FISHERIES AND OCEANS
Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
in Victoria, British Columbia, the whale watching capital of
Canada, the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans is issuing permits
to the Americans to hunt injured whales in Canadian waters.
My question is quite simple. Why is the minister endorsing this
insane American whale hunt and why is he not demanding a whaling
free zone so that the American problem does not become ours?
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as usual the hon. member is quite
incorrect. No permit has been issued for the killing of whale in
Canadian waters.
* * *
[Translation]
OFFICE OF ENERGY EFFICIENCY
Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the Liberals,
who gave us the “Guide for the perfect Liberal woman candidate”,
are at it again.
Indeed, the Office of Energy Efficiency has put out a practical
guide for reducing automobile energy consumption. But the guide
comes in two versions, one for general readership, and a
simplified and less complicated version, which is oddly enough
called Auto$mart Guide for women drivers.
How can the Minister of Natural Resources explain that this
simplified guide has been prepared solely for—
The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food.
[English]
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would inform the member that the
information he is referring to is just what he says it is, a
guide. It is not anything but that.
* * *
THE ENVIRONMENT
Mr. Rick Laliberte (Churchill River, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
the Canadian Environmental Protection Act needs to be enforced
against polluters that harm our children. This act requires
enforcement by our enforcement agencies.
Will the minister support the phase-out of toxic substances and
enhance the enforcement budget of her department to stop
polluters in this country?
Hon. Christine Stewart (Minister of the Environment,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the Canadian Environmental Protection Act
is an important piece of legislation which is coming back to the
House at report stage. The member will have every opportunity to
debate it and I am sure at the end of the day he will support it.
Enforcement of that legislation is a priority for my party.
* * *
ROYAL NEWFOUNDLAND REGIMENT
Mr. Norman Doyle (St. John's East, PC): Mr. Speaker, I
have a question for the Minister of National Defence.
I come from a province where Canada Day is also Memorial Day.
On July 1, 1916 the Royal Newfoundland Regiment was all but wiped
out in the first day of the battle of the Somme.
Can the minister assure me that the proposed downsizing of
Canada's armed forces reserves will not result in the elimination
of the current Royal Newfoundland Regiment?
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I think that all
Canadians are quite conscious of the enormous sacrifices that
were made by the Royal Newfoundland Regiment during the last two
world wars.
To reinforce what I have said before, the report that he is
quoting from was produced by a group that included Reserve 2000,
the councils of honorary colonels and the reserve area
commanders. They produced this document in April.
It must now be studied in detail and evaluated against all of
the criteria established for reserve restructuring.
* * *
FISHERIES
Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans just said that he has not
issued any permits.
Let me read a grey whale fishing licence signed by the
Government of Canada for the Makah tribal group. This is from
last fall. The minister has declared on the record that as soon
as they cross into Canadian waters he will issue a licence.
He is not coming clean. He is standing up for the Americans.
He is allowing the Americans to hunt grey whales in our waters.
We want him to stand up for Canadians.
When is the minister going to take a stand against the Americans
and stop this insane American whale hunt?
1500
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member should be careful about
using the term insanity.
We have to recognize that if a mortally wounded grey whale comes
into Canadian waters, Canadians would want to have that animal
humanely dispatched. That is a situation where I delegated my
authority to the local fisheries officers so it could be done on
the occasion that it occurs.
Let me repeat. There is no valid licence to any American group
to kill a whale in Canadian waters, and I challenge him to table
that piece of paper.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvan Bernier (Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, while the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans is
spending millions of dollars to buy back groundfish permits, he
is issuing new ones for crab and shrimp in Newfoundland, which
means that there is a wholesale conversion of fishers from
groundfish to shellfish.
How can the minister explain that he is stepping up shellfish
capacity without even a study on the quantities available?
Hon. David Anderson (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, according to departmental principles and policies,
where there is a increase in the shrimp population in the
northern zone, these shrimp are made available to fishers in
contiguous fishing areas; if the fishers are further away and in
another province, distant from that area, they do not get the
TAC.
That is very clear, very simple, and the fishers are well aware
of it.
* * *
[English]
DEVCO
Mr. Peter Mancini (Sydney—Victoria, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
two weeks ago a delegation of miners' wives from Cape Breton came
to Ottawa to seek assurances from the Minister of Natural
Resources that he would review the inadequate package offered
their husbands. He refused.
In good Cape Breton fashion they went to his boss. After
meeting with the Prime Minister they reported that he assured the
delegation he would sit the minister down and straighten him out.
My question is simple. Has the Prime Minister sat down the
Minister of Natural Resources and told him to improve the Devco
package?
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the minister has informed the House and
Canadians a number of times that there is an adjustment package
of $111 million for workers. It is a fair severance package with
early retirement.
A $68 million economic development package has been made
available, along with other programs of HRDC and ACOA to assist
in the situation at Devco.
* * *
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mr. Norman Doyle (St. John's East, PC): Mr. Speaker, let
me go to the parliamentary secretary again. A national defence
proposal to reduce and overhaul the combat role of Canada's
reserves is a dramatic policy reversal which would virtually
destroy the militia within a few years.
Will the parliamentary secretary be a little more clear? Surely
he can indicate if such militia groups as the Royal Newfoundland
Regiment are on the chopping block.
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I do not know how many
times I can say this but the document they are referring to is
just a working paper. It is not government policy; it is just a
working paper.
The minister has the final say and we will have to await his
decision.
* * *
PRESENCE IN GALLERY
The Speaker: I draw the attention of hon. members to
the presence in the gallery of His Excellency Levon Mkrtchyan,
Minister of Education and Science, of the Republic of Armenia.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
* * *
1505
POINTS OF ORDER
MINISTER OF FINANCE
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday in Oral Question Period the finance minister wrongfully
attributed to me a statement about health care spending. Worse,
he called this misstatement a “fact”.
It is crystal clear from Hansard that what I actually said
was precisely the reverse of what was attributed to me by the
finance minister, and I believe it would be in order for
Hansard to be quoted accurately by—
The Speaker: The record will show what the hon. member
said today. It is not a point of order but it is on the record.
GREY WHALE FISHING LICENCE
Mr. Gary Lunn (Saanich—Gulf Islands, Ref.): Mr. Speaker,
during Oral Question Period the Minister of Fisheries asked me to
table the grey whale fishing licence that was prepared by the
Government of Canada to be issued to the Makah tribal group of
Washington State, U.S.A.
I am quite happy to provide this to him since he is unable to
get it in any other way.
The Speaker: I take it the hon. member is seeking
unanimous consent to table a document. Is that correct?
Mr. Gary Lunn: Yes.
The Speaker: Does the hon. member have unanimous consent
to table the document?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[English]
INTERNATIONAL TREATIES
Mr. Julian Reed (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in
the House today to table, in both official languages,
international treaties that entered into force for Canada in
1995, a list of which is also tabled.
As was done with the 1997 and 1996 treaties, I am also tabling
two CD-ROMs that contain electronic versions of these 39
treaties.
* * *
[Translation]
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing
Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in both official
languages, the government's response to nine petitions.
* * *
[English]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
OFFICIAL LANGUAGES
Hon. Sheila Finestone (Mount Royal, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have the pleasure to present, in both official languages, the
second report of the Standing Joint Committee on Official
Languages.
In accordance with its order of reference from the House on
March 1, the committee has considered vote 25 under Privy Council
in the main estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2000
and reports same.
After an eight year term as an officer of the Parliament of
Canada, our Commissioner of Official Languages, Dr. Victor
Goldbloom, takes his leave. His legacy is one of positive action
in the promotion of Canada's two official languages, a value to
prize and promote through designated bilingual instruments and
services. We thank him and say au revoir.
[Translation]
PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS
Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to
present the 74th report of the Standing Committee on Procedure
and House Affairs regarding the membership and associate
membership of some committees.
If the House gives its consent, I intend to move concurrence in
this report later this day.
1510
JUSTICE AND HUMAN RIGHTS
Mr. John Maloney (Erie—Lincoln, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have the
honour to present, in both official languages, the 19th report
of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.
[English]
Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday April 21, 1999,
your committee has considered Bill C-69, an act to amend the
Criminal Records Act and to amend another act in consequence, and
has agreed on Thursday, May 6, 1999 to report it with the
following amendments listed thereon.
I also
have the honour to present, in both official languages, the 20th
report of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.
Pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, October 6, 1998,
your committee has considered Bill C-284, an act to amend the
Criminal Records Act and the Canadian Human Rights Act (offences
against children) and has agreed on Thursday, May 6, 1999 that
Bill C-284 be not further proceeded with as the subject matter of
the bill has been captured under Bill C-69, an act to amend the
Criminal Records Act and to amend another act in consequence.
* * *
TERRY FOX DAY ACT
Ms. Colleen Beaumier (Brampton West—Mississauga, Lib.)
moved for leave to introduce Bill C-512, an act respecting Terry
Fox Day.
She said: Mr. Speaker, I have the pleasure to introduce an act
respecting Terry Fox Day. Almost 20 years ago Terry Fox captured
the hearts and minds of all Canadians. His persistence and
passion provided an example to all Canadians of how one person
can make a difference.
The bill seeks the recognition of the second Sunday following
Labour Day in each and every year as Terry Fox Day.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
[Translation]
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: Mr. Speaker, if the House gives its
consent, I move that the 74th report of the Standing Committee
on Procedure and House Affairs presented to the House earlier
this day be concurred in.
The Speaker: Does the hon. member have unanimous consent to
propose this motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
An hon. member: No.
* * *
[English]
PETITIONS
GASOLINE ADDITIVES
Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur (Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, I am honoured to present
a petition signed by residents of Newbury, Wardsville, Arkona and
Forest who urge parliament to review the new health studies and
ban the gas additive MMT.
Car manufacturers and environmental groups also oppose the use
of MMT.
THE SENATE
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I have the honour today to present a petition signed by
people in different parts of the country including Saskatchewan
and Ontario.
It may be a surprise that these citizens are calling upon the
Parliament of Canada to listen to the argument that the Senate
costs them $50 million to run, that it is undemocratic, that it
is unaccountable, and that we need to democratize and modernize
our parliamentary institutions.
In conclusion they also say that the Senate should be abolished
because of those reasons. I am sure you would agree with that,
Mr. Speaker.
The Speaker: It is not for me to agree or disagree.
MARRIAGE
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): Mr.
Speaker, I have the honour to table in the House today a petition
signed by the constituents of Calgary—Nose Hill who believe it
is the duty of parliament to ensure that marriage as it has
always been known and understood in Canada be preserved and
protected.
They therefore pray that parliament enact legislation to ensure
that marriage can only be entered into between a single male and
a single female.
[Translation]
FISHERIES
Mr. Yvan Bernier (Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to table in this House a petition
signed by close to 1,000 residents of the Magdalen Islands.
The petition is about the fishery restructuring and adjustment
measures put in place in June by the Minister of Human Resources
Development and the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans.
The petitioners submit that these measures are not geared to the
needs of fisheries workers, and that over 800 residents of the
Magdalen Islands will be affected by the moratorium. They feel
that this change has a major negative impact on their community.
1515
They are therefore asking the government to review the
restructuring measures and to adjust these measures to the
specific needs of the Magdalen Islands.
[English]
MARRIAGE
Mr. David Iftody (Provencher, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this
petition is from citizens of Canada in my riding of Provencher.
They draw the attention of the House of Commons to the following:
Whereas the majority of Canadians understand the concept of
marriage as only the voluntary union of a single male and a
single female, and whereas it is the duty of parliament to ensure
that marriage, as it has always been known and understood in
Canada, be preserved and protected, therefore your petitioners
pray that parliament enact legislation such as Bill C-225 so as to
define in statute that marriage can only be entered into between
a single male and a single female.
THE SENATE
Mr. John Solomon (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, I am pleased to stand in
the House today on behalf of many people from Saskatchewan to
present a petition that pertains to the Senate.
These people are very unhappy with the Senate. They believe it
is undemocratic, it is unelected, it is unaccountable and it is
costing us $50 million a year. They want it abolished as soon
as possible.
Mr. Chris Axworthy (Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, it is my privilege to present what is probably my last
petition.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Mr. Chris Axworthy: I am glad people are happy that it
will be my last one.
The petition is from people all over Saskatchewan who confirm
what everybody knows, that the Senate is undemocratic, unelected
and unaccountable, costs $50 million and undermines the
institutions of this House. They call upon
parliament to undertake measures to abolish the Senate.
FISHERIES
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I have three different petitions
here. The first one is from the beautiful island of Prince
Edward Island.
These residents of the province of P.E.I. draw the attention of
the House to the fact that the shell fishery is a vital component
of the Prince Edward Island economy, that it is seasonal in
nature and provides only a basic living for fishers and their
families. The petitioners pray upon parliament to direct Revenue
Canada, HRDC and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to
harmonize record keeping requirements for all shell fishers and
inform them of these requirements.
CHILD SEX OFFENDERS
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the second petition is from my
people in the great Nova Scotia riding of Sackville—Musquodoboit
Valley—Eastern Shore.
They wish to draw to the attention of the House of Commons
that the majority of sexual assaults against children
are committed by family members or friends of the family.
Therefore, the petitioners call upon parliament to enact
legislation which would strengthen and protect children from
convicted child sex offenders.
CANADA POST
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the last petition is on behalf of
the rural route mail carriers of Canada who wish to inform the
House that they earn less than minimum wage in working conditions
reminiscent of another era. Section 13.5 of the Canada Post
Corporation Act prohibits the rural route mail carriers from
having collective bargaining rights and are not under
the Canada Labour Code.
Therefore the petitioners pray upon parliament to repeal section
13.5 of the Canada Post Corporation Act.
THE SENATE
Mr. Nelson Riis (Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys,
NDP): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, it is an
honour and a privilege to present this petition on behalf of
citizens of British Columbia.
I will not read it, but there is a long list of reasons why the
petitioners
do not think the Senate is an appropriate institution and are
calling upon the House to take steps to abolish the Senate of
Canada.
* * *
[Translation]
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Questions Nos. 186 and
224 will be answered today.
.[Text]
Question No. 186—Mr. Jason Kenney:
In the last year for which information is available, what was,
in Nova Scotia: (a) the total sales of cigarettes and tobacco;
and (b) the sales total of “GST” free or zero rated
cigarettes and tobacco?
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): I am informed by
Finance Canada and Statistics Canada as follows: (a) Personal
expenditure on tobacco products in Nova Scotia was estimated at
$372 million in 1997, the latest year for which data are
available. This amount includes all applicable taxes.
(b) Information does not exist on the sales total of GST free
or zero rated cigarettes and tobacco in Nova Scotia.
Question No. 224—Mrs. Michelle Dockrill:
What grants or interest-free loans have been provided by Human
Resources Development Canada, Atlantic Canada Opportunities
Agency, Industry Canada, Entreprise Cape Breton Corporation,
Canada-Nova Scotia Infrastructure Program or Canada-Nova Scotia
Cooperation Economic Diversification Agreement to Highland
Environmental, Kevin Pembroke or Pembroke Project Managers
Incorporated?
Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): I am informed as
follows: Entreprise Cape Breton Corporation, ECBC, provided a
non-repayable contribution of $5,000 to Pembroke Project Managers
Incoporated in 1996.
No grants or interest-free loans under any of the programs
administered by the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, ECBC, Human
Resources Development Canada and Industry Canada have been
provided to Highland Environmental, Kevin Pembroke or Pembroke
Project Managers Incorporated.
[Translation]
Mr. Mauril Bélanger: I ask that the remaining questions
be allowed to stand.
The Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
* * *
[English]
MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I ask that all Notices
of Motions for the Production of Papers be allowed to stand.
The Speaker: Is it agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
CANADIAN ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION ACT, 1999
The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill C-32, an act
respecting pollution prevention and the protection of the
environment and human health in order to contribute to
sustainable development, as reported (with amendments) from the
committee.
1520
SPEAKER'S RULING
The Speaker: Colleagues, I have decided on a ruling
for groups for report stage of Bill C-32, an act respecting
pollution prevention and the protection of the environment and
human health in order to contribute to sustainable development.
[Translation]
There are 236 motions in amendment standing on the Notice Paper
for the report stage of Bill C-32.
[English]
The motions will be grouped for debate as follows.
[Translation]
Group No. 1: Motions Nos. 1 to 3, 13, 14, 26, 61 to 68, 71, 83
to 91, 93 to 97, 101, 108 to 113, 115, 117, 118, 122, 123, 128,
130, 132, 136 and 206.
[English]
Group No. 2: Motions Nos. 4, 5, 11, 12, 15, 25, 30 to 33, 39,
42, 43, 46, 48 to 52, 56 to 60, 69, 74, 80, 81, 105 to 107, 116,
119 to 121, 125, 129, 133, 146, 147, 155, 156, 159 to 161, 167,
169, 171 to 174, 176, 181, 183, 189, 195, 197, 203 to 205, 207 to
213, 215 and 225.
[Translation]
Group No. 3: Motions Nos. 6, 7, 137 to 139, 148 to 150.
[English]
Group No. 4: Motions Nos. 8 to 10, 16, 18, 19, 22 to 24 and 47.
[Translation]
Group No. 5: Motions Nos. 17, 20, 21, 27 to 29, 34, 35, 40, 45,
54, 55, 72, 75 to 79, 82, 92, 98 to 100, 102 to 104, 114, 124,
126, 127, 131, 134, 136, 140 to 145, 152, 157, 158, 162 to 166,
168, 170, 175, 177 to 180, 182, 184, 188, 190, 196, 199, 216 to
224, 226 to 229, 232, 234 to 236.
[English]
Group No. 6: Motions Nos. 36 to 38, 41, 70 and 73.
[Translation]
Group No. 7: Motions Nos. 53, 151, 153, 154, 185 to 187, 191 to
194, 198, 200 to 202.
[English]
Group No. 8: Motions Nos. 214, 230, 231 and 233.
[Translation]
The voting patterns for the motions within each group are
available at the table. The Chair will remind the House of each
pattern at the time of voting.
[English]
I shall now put Motions Nos. 1 to 3, 13, 14, 26, 61 to 68, 71,
83 to 91, 93 to 97, 101, 108 to 113, 115, 117, 118, 122, 123,
128, 130, 132, 135 and 206 to the House. These are the motions
in Group No. 1.
MOTIONS IN AMENDMENT
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.) moved:
That Bill C-32, in the preamble, be amended by replacing lines
19 to 21 on page 1 with the following:
Hon. Andy Mitchell (for the Minister of the Environment)
moved:
That Bill C-32, in the preamble, be amended by replacing lines
19 and 20 on page 1 with the following:
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ) moved:
That Bill C-32, in the preamble, be amended by replacing line 19
on page 1 with the following:
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.) moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 2, be amended by replacing lines 12 to
16 on page 4 with the following:
Hon. Andy Mitchell (for the Minister of the Environment)
moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 2, be amended by replacing lines 14 to
16 on page 4 with the following:
“from the risk of any adverse effects of the use and release of
toxic substances, pollutants and wastes;
(j.1) protect the environment, including its biological
diversity, and human health, by ensuring the safe and effective
use of biotechnology;”
Mr. Rick Laliberte (Churchill River, NDP) moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 6, be amended by adding after
line 38 on page 11 the following:
“(1.2) In subsection (1.1) “precautionary principle” means
that where there are threats of serious or irreversible damage,
lack of full scientific certainty shall not be used as a reason
for postponing measures to prevent environmental degradation.”
That Bill C-32, in Clause 64, be amended by replacing lines 34
to 39 on page 38 and lines 1 to 4 on page 39 with the following:
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.) moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 65, be amended by replacing lines 10
to 28 on page 39 with the following:
“below any measurable quantity or concentration that is at or
approaching the level of quantification, as defined by the
regulations, and that
(a) is specified by the Ministers or prescribed; and
(b) in the opinion of the Ministers, results or may result in a
harmful effect on the environment or human life or health.
(2) For the purposes of implementing the virtual elimination of
a substance, any factor or information that, in the opinion of
the Ministers, is relevant shall be taken into consideration as
provided for in section 91, including, but not limited to,
environmental or health risks and any other relevant social,
economic or technical matters.”
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ) moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 65, be amended by replacing lines 10
to 28 on page 39 with the following:
“below any measurable quantity or concentration that is at or
approaching the level of quantification, as defined by the
regulations, and that
(a) is specified by the Ministers or prescribed; and
(b) in the opinion of the Ministers, results or may result in
a harmful effect on the environment or human life or health.
(2) For the purposes of implementing the virtual elimination of
a substance, any factor or information that, in the opinion of
the Ministers, is relevant shall be taken into consideration as
provided for in section 91, including, but not limited to,
environmental or health risks and any other relevant social,
economic or technical matters.”
Hon. Andy Mitchell (for the Minister of the Environment)
moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 65, be amended by replacing, in the
French version, lines 13 to 15 on page 39 with the following:
“(2) Les ministres établissent une liste de substances—la
liste de quasi-élimination—qui précise la limite de dosage de
chaque substance.”
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC) moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 65, be amended by replacing lines 17
to 19 on page 39 with the following:
“(3) When a substance is added to the Virtual Elimination List,
the Ministers shall recommend that a regulation be made under
paragraph 93(1)(w.1) prescribing the quantity or concentration of
the”
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.) moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 65, be amended by replacing lines 17
and 18 on page 39 with the following:
“(3) When a substance has been listed for virtual elimination,
the Ministers shall”
Hon. Andy Mitchell (for the Minister of the Environment)
moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 65, be amended by replacing lines 17
and 18 on page 39 with the following:
“(3) When the level of quantification for a substance has been
specified on the List referred to in subsection (2), the
Ministers shall”
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.) moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 67, be amended by replacing line 7 on
page 41 with the following:
Mr. Rick Laliberte (Churchill River, NDP) moved:
That Bill C-32 be amended by adding after line 41 on page 47 the
following new clause:
“76.2 In section 76.1, “precautionary principle” means the
principle that where there are threats of serious or irreversible
damage, lack of full scientific certainty shall not be used as a
reason for postponing measures to prevent environmental
degradation.”
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC) moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 77, be amended by replacing line 30 on
page 48 with the following:
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.) moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 77, be amended by replacing line 30 on
page 48 with the following:
Hon. Andy Mitchell (for the Minister of the Environment)
moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 77, be amended by replacing line 30 on
page 48 with the following:
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.) moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 77, be amended by replacing line 32 on
page 48 with the following:
Hon. Andy Mitchell (for the Minister of the Environment)
moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 77, be amended by replacing lines 32
to 36 on page 48 with the following:
“conducted under section 74, the substance is determined to be
toxic or capable of becoming toxic, and the Ministers are
satisfied that
(a) the substance may have a long-term harmful effect on the
environment and is”
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC) moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 77, be amended by replacing lines 16
and 17 on page 49 with the following:
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.) moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 77, be amended by replacing lines 16
and 17 on page 49 with the following:
Hon. Andy Mitchell (for the Minister of the Environment)
moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 77, be amended by replacing lines 16
and 17 on page 49 with the following:
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC) moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 79, be amended by replacing lines 18
and 19 on page 51 with the following:
“sure, as confirmed or amended, to achieve virtual elimination in
respect of a substance by implementing subsection 65(3), the”
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.) moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 79, be amended by replacing lines 18
and 19 on page 51 with the following:
“sure, as confirmed or amended, is the implementation of
subsection 65(3) in respect of a substance, the”
Hon. Andy Mitchell (for the Minister of the Environment)
moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 79, be amended
(a) by replacing lines 18 and 19 on page 51 with the following:
“sure, as confirmed or amended, is the implementation of
virtual elimination under subsection 65(3) in respect of a
substance, the”
(b) by replacing lines 28 and 29 on page 51 with the following:
“proposed actions in respect of the implementation of virtual
elimination under subsection 65(3) of the substance in relation
to the”
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC) moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 79, be amended by replacing lines 28
and 29 on page 51 with the following:
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.) moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 79, be amended by replacing lines 28
and 29 on page 51 with the following:
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC) moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 81, be amended
(a) by replacing lines 17 to 21 on page 54 with the following:
“this section, the Ministers and and the minister responsible
for the Act of Parliament referred to in paragraph (6)(a) are
responsible for determining whether or not the requirements
referred to in that paragraph are met by or under that other Act,
or”
(b) by replacing line 23 on page 54 with the following:
“(a) if the Ministers and that other minister determine”
(c) by replacing lines 27 and 28 on page 54 with the following:
“regulations made under that Act, the Ministers and that other
minister may by order add to”
(d) by replacing line 35 on page 54 with the following:
“(b) if the Minister and that other minister determine”
(e) by replacing, in the English version, line 39 on page 54
with the following:
“in Schedule 2, the Ministers and that other minister may”
That Bill C-32, in Clause 91, be amended by replacing line 34 on
page 63 with the following:
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.) moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 91, be amended by replacing line 34 on
page 63 with the following:
Hon. Andy Mitchell (for the Minister of the Environment)
moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 91, be amended by replacing line 34 on
page 63 with the following:
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC) moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 91, be amended by replacing line 7 on
page 64 with the following:
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.) moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 91, be amended by replacing line 7 on
page 64 with the following:
Hon. Andy Mitchell (for the Minister of the Environment)
moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 91, be amended by replacing line 7 on
page 64 with the following:
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC) moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 93, be amended by adding after line 6
on page 67 the following:
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.) moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 93, be amended
(a) by replacing, in the English version, line 16 on page 67
with the following:
“surements or monitoring;”
(b) by replacing line 19 on page 67 with the following:
“carry out the purposes of this Part; and
(z) for the purposes of subsection 65(3), the quantity or
concentration of a substance that may be released into the
environment, either alone or in combination with any other
substance from any source or type of source.”
Hon. Andy Mitchell (for the Minister of the Environment)
moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 95, be amended by replacing, in the
French version, lines 13 and 14 on page 69 with the following:
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC) moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 95, be amended by replacing line 18 on
page 69 with the following:
Hon. Pierre S. Pettigrew (for the Minister of the Environment)
moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 100, be amended by replacing line 1 on
page 74 with the following:
Mr. Bill Gilmour (Nanaimo—Alberni, Ref.) moved:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 100, be amended
(a) by replacing line 15 on page 74 with the following:
“(c) for the purposes of implementing international
agreements, add to Part 3 of the Export Control List”
(b) by replacing line 17 on page 74 with the following:
“which is severely restricted in Canada by or under an”
That Bill C-32, in Clause 101, be amended by replacing line 2 on
page 75 with the following:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 102, be amended by replacing line 32
on page 75 with the following:
That Bill C-32, in Clause 199, be amended by replacing lines 43
to 46 on page 139 and lines 1 to 11 on page 140 with the
following:
1530
He said: Mr. Speaker, we are debating the Canadian
Environmental Protection Act. I will take a few moments to
describe for the people who are watching what we are debating.
This is legislation that was brought forward in 1988 and in the
legislation it stipulated that it would come back to the House in
five years for review. It came back in the last parliament;
however, the bill that was proposed did not gain support and died
on the order paper. In this parliament Bill C-32 is the result
of the new bringing together of the Canadian Environmental
Protection Act.
1535
It is a large bill. It is comprehensive. It is technical and
it contains over 230 pages. What is significant is that there
were over 400 amendments introduced at committee stage. Now
there are 236 amendments at report stage. There are more
amendments than the House has seen to any bill in a number of
years according to the clerks.
We will be discussing in the first group of amendments the
management of toxic substances, the application of virtual
elimination, inherent toxicity and prior informed consent. This
is a fairly technical bill and we will be dealing with some of
these issues.
I would like to talk about the application of virtual
elimination. Virtual elimination means pretty well what it says,
that a chemical would be virtually eliminated. However, the
difficulty with this bill concerns the ability to measure. I
will be showing my age, but if we go back 20 or 30 years most of
us will remember that the ability to measure was in parts per
million, then it went to parts per billion, then to parts per
trillion, and perhaps now to parts per quadrillion.
Industry requires goal posts. For instance, when building a
plant, if there is a nasty chemical such as dioxin, which occurs
naturally in forest fires or wood smoke, if that is to be
virtually eliminated, industry requires goal posts to be set. If
industry knows that it is one part per billion, it can deal with
that. Industry will know what it will be dealing with down the
road. However, the bill does not say that with respect to
virtual elimination. Therefore, we have proposed, along with a
number of other people, changes to clarify the issue. Unless
changes are made to the application of virtual elimination in the
bill, Canada will be out of step with internationally accepted
approaches. For example, Germany has numbers.
A witness appeared before the committee who made a very pointed
remark. If there is a point of one part per billion and industry
steps over it, it can be taken to court. It is very clean cut.
However, if there is a very fuzzy goal post of the ability to
measure, that could be in litigation for over 10 years. In fact,
technology could supersede the ability to measure and it would
just muddy the waters.
An enormous disincentive will result when companies are forced
to plan for unrealistic results. There are really no
environmental or health benefits from this approach. It simply
ties the hands of investment in this country.
The Reform Party has put forward 10 motions which deal with the
application of virtual elimination. It is interesting, as well,
that the government and the Progressive Conservatives have put
together 13 amendments to bring the application of virtual
elimination into a scope that we can all deal with.
There are a number of amendments put forward by the Reform Party
and the government which ensure that specific reference to
implementation of subsection 65(3) is maintained in the act when
dealing with the application of virtual elimination. Many of the
motions accomplish virtually the same thing as our motions. In
fact, the reason they are grouped is because they are very
similar.
The intent of the amendments put forward by the Reform Party is
to eliminate ministerial discretion when determining whether
circumstances have been taken into consideration and to emphasize
the role of science in decision making.
In 10 minutes one cannot really deal with many of these subjects
in depth because of their complexity, but I would also like to
deal with prior informed consent, which is addressed by our
Motions Nos. 130, 132 and 135. Our amendments would ensure that
Canada prohibits the export of substances placed on a list which,
by international agreement, are banned or severely restricted
substances, rather than allowing the government to prohibit the
export of any substance regulated in Canada.
1540
I was really quite surprised that the government did not propose
amendments with respect to sections 100, 101 and 102 of the act
concerning the implementation of the prior informed consent
convention that Canada has entered into. When the government
introduced these sections to the committee it was explained that
the purpose of these sections was to allow Canada to fulfil its
obligations under the prior informed consent convention, which is
also known as the Rotterdam convention, which was finalized last
fall.
The sections which the government proposed, while they enable
Canada to fulfil its obligations under that convention, are far
broader than what is necessary for the purpose. I believe that
is the crux of the matter. The main point is: How broad do we
need this act to be? The act should fulfil the convention.
However, it goes far beyond that and gives far broader powers
than we feel are necessary. The legislation should not go beyond
what the government initially said was necessary.
In Reform Motion No. 90 we suggest that the purpose should be,
as was explained to the committee by government officials, for
the implementation of international agreements. We agree with
that.
Since the international agreement that we are talking about is
the prior informed consent convention, we need to look at the
scope of that convention. The negotiating process resulted in
the PIC convention being applied to banned and severely restrict
substances. The term severely restricted is clearly defined in
the convention.
We feel that powers should not be created for the government to
ban the export of substances without their being sound reasons in
the bill. At present there are no sound reasons shown in the
bill. Powers such as these, which can be exercised arbitrarily
without any guidance from parliament, will create significant
investment uncertainty in Canada in the business world.
This uncertainty is particularly important and worrisome for the
increasing numbers of companies which have as their primary focus
of business in Canada export opportunities. We are well aware
that the world is shrinking and that Canada is an exporting
country. Therefore, this portion of the bill is very worrisome
for many industries in Canada.
Another reason this issue is important is that if Canada is to
take a leadership role on environmental issues internationally,
which the Reform Party and I am sure most members of the House
support, it is important that we are responsible domestically to
implement what we negotiate and agree to. To implement something
that goes beyond what we agree to in an international convention
I do not believe is wise and will be seen by our negotiating
partners as irresponsible. We would put at risk Canada's status
as an international leader.
We do not want to create unnecessary powers for the government
for no apparent reason which go beyond PIC powers and create
investment uncertainty. We hope that other parties will agree to
this approach and vote favourably to the proposed amendments to
sections 100, 101 and 102.
I will conclude at this point. My colleague will continue to
speak about inherent toxicity and toxic substances which are also
in this group. As I said earlier, it is very difficult to
capsulate in 10 minutes what is a 232 page bill.
Ms. Paddy Torsney (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of the
Environment, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to
Bill C-32 and to the many motions that have been put forward
within Group No. 1.
As the member opposite has recognized, the motions that we are
dealing with today deal with export controls, virtual elimination
and focus on toxics. The preamble of Bill C-32, as amended by
the standing committee, talks about the phase-out of the
generation and use of persistent and biocumulative toxic
substances.
Government Motion No. 2 proposes an amendment to make the
statement in the preamble consistent with that which is in the
bill.
There are also changes on biotechnology and the administrative
duties of the bill. As a result of the amendments put forward by
the Standing Committee on the Environment and Sustainable
Development, the administrative duties now correctly reference
products of biotechnology.
1545
For clarity, government Motion No. 9 retains this reference but
places it in a separate clause that recognizes the need to
protect the environment by providing for the safe and effective
use of biotechnology.
I think all members will agree that the bill in its entirety is
focused on making sure that we are producing a win for the
environment, a win for the Canadian public and a win for the
future health of Canadians. The bill is on the leading edge of
environmental protection worldwide. It focuses on pollution
prevention, the protection of our environment and the health of
all Canadians. It strengthens the environmental protection act,
as the member opposite has mentioned, a piece of legislation that
came in some five years ago.
One of the key components of the bill is the section on virtual
elimination. Virtual elimination means reducing the releases to
the environment of a very small number of the most dangerous
toxic substances to a level where these releases cannot be
measured.
Right now we are talking about 12 substances in Canada that have
been found to meet the criteria for virtual elimination. Nine of
these substances, one example being DDT, are banned in Canada.
Controls are in place or are being developed for the remaining
three. There are 23,000 substances in commerce in Canada. It is
estimated that over the next number of years 10 or 12 could also
be slated for virtual elimination.
Why are we doing this? Even extremely small releases of certain
substances to the environment can create problems that are
extremely costly or impossible to correct. This is particularly
true of substances that are: toxic as defined under the
environmental protection act; primarily the result of human
activity; persistent, take a long time to break down, if ever;
and bioaccumulative, collect in living organisms and end up in
the food chain.
A prime example of this is the insecticide DDT, which I
mentioned earlier. It was introduced into Canada in the 1940s.
It was responsible for causing drastic reductions in many bird
populations, especially those at higher levels in the food chain
such as gulls, cormorants and bald eagles.
Despite the ban in Canada on all major uses of DDT in the 1970s,
today DDT is being detected in the breast milk of Canada's Inuit
people. The bill will make sure that we remove these substances
from our communities and from the environment in Canada.
The bill is based on the regulatory relief limit that is very
precise, the limit that industries will be obliged to meet after
this limit is set. That will come after consideration of the
health and environment risk to Canadians, of the social and
economic situation, and of technical matters. Does the
technology exist? Do we need to develop something else?
Sometimes achieving the virtual elimination of these substances
will not be immediately feasible. The bill recognizes the need
to consider all these matters.
The government amendments to these sections, represented in a
whole series of motions, will make it clear that virtual
elimination planning and regulatory requirements will be set
after consideration of environmental or health risks, as well
social, economic and technical matters. This is a common sense
approach.
With the special regime for the virtual elimination of the most
dangerous and toxic substances, Bill C-32 is on the leading edge.
The member opposite talked about inherent toxicity. To be
slated for virtual elimination, a substance must meet the
criteria for toxicity in section 64 of the bill. Government
Motion No. 88 clarifies ambiguous language in subsection 77(3) to
make sure that the only toxic substances are put on the track to
virtual elimination. This is consistent with other sections in
the bill and the government's commitment to risk-based decision
making.
Let us talk about export controls. Government Motion No. 128 is
a technical amendment to make it clear that it is both the
Minister of the Environment and the Minister of Health who add a
substance to the export control list. This is about stewardship.
It is about people being responsible within our borders for what
they are producing and what they are sending elsewhere.
I would like to talk for a couple of seconds about some of the
opposition motions that are before us. The Bloc Quebecois have
several motions that would need the agreement of the provinces
before we could move ahead with virtual elimination of persistent
and bioaccumulative toxic substances.
Let us be clear. In 1998 the federal government and all the
provinces and territories endorsed the national policy for the
management of toxic substances. That policy is reflected in the
bill.
1550
Bill C-32 is consistent with the policy which calls for the
virtual elimination of persistent and bioaccumulative toxic
substances. With the new CEPA, the federal government will
continue to work closely with its provincial and territorial
partners in taking action to deal with toxics.
The New Democratic Party wants to alter the definition of toxic
and to abandon the current practice of making decisions based on
risk. The government is committed to a risk-based approach when
dealing with toxic substances. Basing our decisions on an
assessment of risk to the environment and human health is the
internationally accepted way of doing things. Abandoning it
would produce no environmental benefit and would put Canada out
of step with the other nations with whom we work so closely to
protect the environment from the threat of toxics.
Both the Bloc Quebecois and the Reform Party want to return the
definition of virtual elimination to that which was originally
proposed in the bill. The standing committee heard that the
definition of virtual elimination that originally existed was
confusing and could have been interpreted in conflicting ways.
The government amendments corrected this problem. The definition
in the bill is clear and credible.
Ultimately, reducing releases of the most dangerous of toxics to
the point where they can no longer be measured is our goal for
virtual elimination. Striving for anything less would put the
environment and the human health of Canadians at unnecessary
risk.
Let us talk about the Progressive Conservative amendments.
Substantive gains have been made in this piece of legislation.
Since there are several pieces of federal legislation that govern
new substances and the expertise is shared across several
government departments, it is appropriate that the decision
making is in the hands of the governor in council.
A key point of the bill, which some people choose to ignore, is
that CEPA sets the standard. Other acts must assess for toxicity
to determine if the new substance has the potential to harm the
environment or human health.
Let us talk about the Reform cross-referencing amendments to
delete all mention of virtual elimination outside the definition
in section 65. That would make the goal of virtual elimination
unattainable. It would leave the definition of the bill without
any corresponding operational clauses. We are not prepared to do
that. It would be bowing to industry, to the mythology of some
of the paranoia that has existed.
Reform amendments to the export control provisions would weaken
Canada's ability to control exports of dangerous substances. It
would add “for the purposes of implementing international
agreements” and the concept is “severely” restricted. These
limit the scope of the sections dealing with the export of
toxics. It would take away Canada's ability to control exports
of potentially dangerous chemicals unless they were covered by an
international agreement.
Reform Motion No. 92 would make it impossible for Canada to
control exports of CFCs which are responsible for depleting the
earth's ozone layer. It would be kowtowing to industry, it would
not be a good thing and it would take us to pre-Reform Party,
pre-1985.
The bill is about stewardship. It is about pollution
prevention. It is a good bill that is important for the health
and environment of all Canadians. I urge all members to support
it with the amendments we are proposing.
[Translation]
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to rise today to speak to the report stage of Bill C-32,
and to have an opportunity to show you just how many
shortcomings there are in this bill.
This was my first experience with a clause by clause study of a
bill in committee. I must say it was a most disconcerting
experience for me, to say the least.
The process was a lengthy one, and introducing and withdrawing
hundreds of amendments was very confusing. To top it all off,
for a number of clauses, the English and French versions did not
correspond.
We adopted more than 160 amendments, and no doubt there would
have been more if we had not got fed up.
Still today, at the report stage, the hundreds of amendments
before us prove without a doubt that this bill needs to be
totally reworked, not just changed here and changed there, but
totally reworked. Otherwise, we will end up with a bill that
lacks rigour, consensus and vision.
Throughout this committee process, I noted this government's
flagrant lack of good will. Here we are, stuck with an
unfinished bill for the next 10 years. This is not a process
that is undertaken every year.
1555
We in the Bloc Quebecois wanted to do this. Here are a few
examples to show our good will on this issue.
First, public participation: what a lovely expression.
Unfortunately the government is letting cumbersome
administrative and legal procedures take precedence over the
public's legitimate demand for a healthy environment.
Second, toxic substances: once again, the government is putting
off updating the list of toxic substances. It will wait seven
years. When will the new substances be analyzed? This is urgent.
Why procrastinate?
Third, enforcement: with this bill, the federal government wants
to set new rules for the environment. How can it enforce them?
Even with the current legislation, it has cut staff drastically.
There are fewer inspectors, so there is less enforcement. The
government cut the department's budget by several million
dollars. It should seek to enforce what is already in force
before thinking of extending its power to interfere in areas
under provincial jurisdiction.
Some facts must be pointed out. We will recall that, on December
15, 1995, the Liberal government proposed revising the Canadian
Environmental Protection Act. The proposal by the Minister of
the Environment at the time was the government's response to the
fifth report of the Standing Committee on the Environment and
Sustainable Development entitled “It's About Our Health—Towards
Pollution Prevention”.
This response set out the broad lines of a proposal to renew
the federal government's main legislative measure on
environmental protection, CEPA. This was a promise made in the
red book.
The Bloc opposed the report, and made that perfectly clear
by tabling a minority report. Most of the recommendations in the
majority report supported the centralizing tendency of the
federal government in environmental protection matters.
The Bloc Quebecois refutes the theory of the double safety net
and contends that the environment would be better served if
responsibility for its protection were given to one level of
government only.
The Bloc Quebecois firmly believes that the provinces,
especially Quebec, have greater knowledge of the specifics of
their natural environment and are in a position to arouse the
interest and encourage the participation of local residents, are
more open to the claims of environmental groups, are able to
conclude significant agreements with national and international
partners and have indicated their desire to find solutions to
environmental challenges and to contribute actively to
sustainable development.
The government introduced Bill C-74, but the bill died on the
order paper when the election was called in 1997. After the
election, the government introduced a new bill, Bill C-32, born
from the ashes of Bill C-74, at first reading on March 12, 1998.
It should be noted that the Canadian Environmental Protection
Act is required to undergo a review every five years, and that
deadline is already past.
Does the renewed Canadian Environmental Protection Act give
powers to Quebec and the provinces? Definitely not.
In theory, Bill C-32 recognizes the environment as a shared
responsibility between the federal government and the provinces.
Unfortunately, all the rhetoric and pious wishes are not matched
with action.
The bill does not delegate any power to Quebec or any of the
provinces, which is contrary to what true environmental
harmonization between the various levels of government should
be.
With Bill C-32, now at report stage, the Liberal government is
reinforcing the federal government's supremacy in the area of
environmental protection.
This bill opens the door to duplication of federal and
provincial powers. To this end, the government even dares to
hide behind the latest supreme court ruling on an environmental
issue, in P.G. Canada v. Hydro Quebec.
I will now address the four main changes made to the bill at
committee stage.
1600
A new definition of virtual elimination is provided at clause
65.(1). It reads:
In this part, “virtual elimination” means, in respect of a toxic
substance released into the environment as a result of human
activity, the ultimate reduction of the quantity or
concentration of the substance in the release below the level of
quantification specified by the ministers in the list referred
to in subsection (2).
Before we create new definitions devoid of meaning, we must make
sure we can achieve the highest standards in the world. By way
of example, the harmonization of federal environmental standards
with those of European countries, such as Germany, would be a
big step in the right direction.
We could see there was a problem of harmonization among the
various positions in the bill referring to virtual elimination.
The new definition of virtual elimination has not been uniformly
applied to all the clauses concerning this issue. Accordingly
the Bloc Quebecois is proposing amendments to respond to these
inconsistencies in Bill C-32.
The committee eliminated all references to cost-effective
measures the government was to take under Bill C-32. The
committee based its decision on the fact that the government did
not want to explicitly define the word cost effective in the
bill.
In the face of this legal void, the committee decided it was
simply preferable to eliminate the term, considering that in the
context of sustainable development, it is understood that
government measures are to be cost effective.
On this issue, the Bloc Quebecois' position was the same as that
of the committee. We should delete a term that has not been
defined in the act.
Hormone disrupting substance means a substance having the
ability to disrupt the synthesis, secretion, transport, binding,
action or elimination of natural hormones in an organism, or its
progeny, that are responsible for the maintenance of
homeostasis, reproduction, development or behaviour of the
organism.
The bill now specifies that the federal government shall conduct
research or studies relating to hormone disrupting substances
for preventive and abatement purposes, to deal with the negative
effects of these substances on health.
In this regard, we think the federal government should limit its
activities to conducting research and studies in this area. All
the other aspects mentioned in the bill should come under the
provinces' responsibility.
The greatest concern about Bill C-32 is undoubtedly the issue of
harmonization with the provinces. Under the original version of
Bill C-32, the federal government was going to act in accordance
with the intent of intergovernmental agreements. The Liberal
majority softened this requirement by adding the word
endeavour before the verb to act.
The Bloc Quebecois maintains that the federal government must
always keep in mind the prospect of harmonization with the
provinces, to avoid duplication and overlap in the legislation
and regulations. By trivializing federal-provincial harmonization
agreements, the Liberal government clearly shows that it lacks
the will to respect the jurisdiction of the provinces with
regard to the environment.
The Bloc Quebecois will table amendments, including one to have
the term “endeavour” deleted from the current version of Bill
C-32. I hope the government will give us its support.
As for the agreements respecting the administration of the act,
clause 9 of the bill provides that the minister “may negotiate
with a government with respect to the administration of this
act”.
Considering all the issues raised, the Bloc Quebecois is opposed
to this bill at report stage.
[English]
Mr. Rick Laliberte (Churchill River, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I
am honoured to speak to an act respecting pollution. If we
stopped at that we would be in great danger.
Pollution in this country was given a free ride for generations
and decades. The protection of the environment and human health
is the most important part of the act and contributes to
sustainable development.
That is the weight of this act.
1605
We must respect the toxicity and the dangers pollution poses to
our health, our organisms, our plants, our animals, our
biodiversity, the air we breath, the water we drink, and the food
we eat. Pollution has made its way into our entire being.
Therefore we must find strong legislation.
We received a wake-up call in the 1960s when the terms ecology
and ecologists came into being, along with the environmental bill
of rights for all Canadian citizens, especially our children.
That is what CEPA is deemed to be and where it will evolve in the
future. It may not have achieved it in this round and it
certainly did not achieve it in the first round.
In the first round pollution control was the key word. We tried
to control pollution in our air, our water and our soil. Bill
C-32 is designed to bring about pollution prevention, to
eventually stop pollution.
That is the challenge we faced when we looked at the original
draft of Bill C-32 during clause by clause consideration. It was
referred to the committee on April 28, 1998. It took us a whole
year to review it. Up to now over 800 amendments have been
brought forward. This is strong enough message that something
was wrong with the basis of the bill.
The committee heard from non-government environmental
organizations and health associations across the country. These
organizations and countless other groups came before the
committee to offer their view that the bill was a biased industry
bill designed and drafted for industrial purposes.
Last September committee members asked these organizations how
much access they had to the minister. All these health and
environmental organizations said that they had limited access to
the Minister of Environment. We asked the same question of
industry representatives who replied that they had unlimited
access to the minister. They were happy with the balance between
the environment and the economy as set out in the bill.
Through the whole committee process everybody rolled up their
sleeves in a happy forum under the auspices of a good chair. In
this democratic process we tackled the bill through thick and
thin. Many amendments were lost and won. We felt the bill stood
a chance of getting passed in the House. We looked forward to
possibly supporting the bill which would ensure good health for
our children and our families and clean air, clean water and
clean lands.
We endeavoured to look at pollution prevention. We looked at a
number of opportunities to enhance it. One of the issues that
came out was precautionary principle, one of the highlights of
the bill, which included the term cost effective.
Through the committee process we were successful in taking the
cost out of effective measures. Cost effective did not take into
account that there were health matters. If pollution continues
to enter our environment and continues to inflict illnesses on
our children there are various costs: the health costs, the loss
of work costs, the insurance costs, the cost of securing homes,
the cost of buying cleaner water, and the cost of ensuring food
is well prepared. These costs are not taken into consideration.
The cost for our citizens, the cost for Canadians for clean food,
clean water and clean air were not the definition of cost
effective.
1610
Cost effective was an industrial measure for controlling
pollution. It was uppermost in the government's mind. Lo and
behold we tossed out cost effective and included measures, that
beyond scientific evidence precautionary measures should be
taken.
Again cost effective came back into this round of amendments
before the House from the government side. Obviously the
industry has put its foot down. We would tell all members and
all Canadians who are listening that the cost effective measures
do not improve environmental measures. They look after the
industry's needs and the industry's costs.
Another issue comes into play, that is virtual elimination which
is a new term in law. In essence Bill C-32 is a piece of
legislation which will be the law of the land. Virtual seems to
be a high tech word. It is like virtual reality. It is not
quite there. In my interpretation of virtual elimination we do
not really want to prohibit or phase out toxic substances. We
will try to do it to a point but there will always be a trickle
of toxic substances in Canada.
I was quite startled when the minister said that in law we could
not measure zero. That was a real awakening call. It will be a
challenge to try to find a legal definition of zero. The closest
the government has come up with is virtual elimination.
We lived through this phase of virtual elimination. We accepted
where it was going. We kind of understood the integrity of the
government, that it would try to achieve virtual elimination in
the evolution of the bill and carry forward. However a big part
of the virtual elimination is in clause 65(3) where the topic is
defined as achieved virtual elimination.
Achieving virtual elimination is the task at hand. Members have
proposed amendments to remove the achieving of virtual
elimination. It is unacceptable. It does not make any sense for
it to be taken out of the bill because achieving virtual
elimination was the task of Bill C-32.
Another issue, which I will close on, is the phase-out of the
generation and use of toxic substances. There are amendments to
take out this part of the preamble and replace it with virtual
elimination.
Canadians would understand and sleep better at night if they
knew that the preamble of the bill was to phase out the
generation and use of toxic substances. In essence the
government and some of its members want to have virtual
elimination in the preamble.
1615
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC): Mr. Speaker, it is
indeed a pleasure to have the opportunity to speak to Bill C-32,
the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, at report stage. When
the member for Davenport talked about this piece of legislation,
he referred to it as “a very pioneering bill. It is Canada's
principal bill with respect to the controlled use of toxins in
the environment.
It was a very pioneering bill that was first established by the
Progressive Conservative Party in 1988 by the hon. Tom McMillan
and spearheaded by the former environment minister, the hon. Jean
J. Charest. It is in that light that I take great pride in
trying to augment this particular bill as we went through the
clause by clause process at committee level.
Alarm bells should go off for Canadians when they hear that the
bill had over 400 amendments at the clause by clause process and
now we are facing over 200 amendments. That is almost 700
amendments. I believe this shows that the bill is flawed in its
own right.
After speaking to my colleague for Richmond—Arthabaska, I know
he is not all that surprised by this. This is a government,
after all, which has not passed one piece of environmental
legislation despite the fact that it has been in office for six
years. It did pass the MMT bill but that cost Canadian taxpayers
$16.5 million because it was not banned under CEPA, which is what
the government should have done in the first place.
The fact that we are cleaning up the government's work should
not come as a surprise to Canadians when it comes to the
environment.
I will refer to a couple of issues that fall in Group No. 1,
particularly the issue of virtual elimination. We were satisfied
that the original definition contained in the bill before it went
to committee was workable. It provided for the reduction of
releases to a quantity of concentration below a measurable amount
that was at or approaching the lowest level of quantification.
We supported regulations to control the release of substances to
define virtually eliminated amount. We also supported the bill's
power under section 93 to totally, partially or conditionally
prohibit the manufacture, use and processing of toxic substances.
We believe that if the government intended on eliminating use of
a substance, it should use the provision. Otherwise, if it
intends to virtually eliminate a substance then it should be able
to set levels of release by regulation that are virtually
negligible.
I would like to mention something that is almost unprecedented
in my short time here in the House and, as I understand it, for a
lot of people who have been here for quite some time. We are
about to make an amendment to an amendment.
The government had a definition in Bill C-32 of virtual
elimination before it went into the clause by clause process. The
parliamentary secretary tabled an amendment which passed. He is
now tabling another amendment admitting the government goofed not
once, but twice. I think the government had it right the first
time, but at least it had the sense to recognize that. It tabled
an amendment just the other day after we had already put in the
amendment that corrected it.
We now have two levels of virtual elimination to establish and
achieve. It is unclear as currently written which one would be
deemed the operable amount. There is first a supreme goal of
virtual elimination defined as the ultimate reduction of the
quantity or concentration of the substance in the release below
the level of quantification specified by the minister in the
virtual elimination list.
Level quantification is defined as the lowest possible measured
amount. The ultimate goal is to get below that amount.
Then there is this process to help us gradually get there and it
is called “achieving virtual elimination”. In this section,
the minister prescribes a quantity or concentration of a
substance that may be released into the environment. This is
very different from “below a level of quantification, which is
the lowest concentration that can be accurately measured”.
Instead it is a realistic level that industry is required to
attain when aiming for elimination.
If the government's intentions were to make the level set under
achieving virtual elimination the objective industry is to
pursue, then it should be made clear. My amendments, the
amendments of the Progressive Conservative Party, make this
process clear. They clean up the change the government and the
Reform Party supported in committee.
I would like to emphasize that this mistake was actually
supported by not one party but two parties at the clause by
clause level: the government and the Reform. However, both
parties have recognized that the original wording was the right
way to go.
1620
The government's amended committee language creates uncertainty.
This is because there is a gap between a level that is a step
below the lowest measurable quantity and a level that achieves
virtual elimination by targeting a release amount prescribed
under subclause 65(3) which considers social, economic and
technical matters. This means there would be a gap between what
the law prescribes we achieve and what we actually enforce.
Based on the voting pattern document I received this morning, my
amendments on this clause will be put before similar ones
introduced by Reform, the Bloc and the government. As a result,
given that we want to proceed in a very time effective way, I
would be very shocked if the government were to vote against our
amendment because it would be voting against its own amendment in
a very different way. I would also be shocked if Reform did the
same and somewhat shocked if the Bloc did as well.
The definition of virtual elimination, as originally tabled in
Bill C-32 before it went to clause by clause, is a better way to
go and that is what the Progressive Conservative Party will be
doing with its amendment in terms of trying to clean up the
government's error.
The bill that was sent to committee included a clause 2.2, which
called for the avoidance of duplication and overlap in
legislation regulation in areas that involve the protection of
the environment and human health. It proposed to resolve any
potential disputes by having the Minister of the Environment, the
Minister of Health and the minister responsible for the other act
jointly decide whether measures that can be taken under the act
are appropriate and sufficient to address the matter.
This was removed from the act during the committee review in
favour of introducing separate clauses in appropriate sections of
the bill where the potential for overlap and duplication existed.
The new clauses shifted the power to decide which law would
prevail to cabinet from the three ministers, except in the case
of biotechnology where the Minister of Health and the Minister of
the Environment make the decision.
Members may actually agree that my amendment makes more sense.
My amendment would actually have the Minister of the Environment,
the Minister of Health and the applicable other minister make a
collaborative decision. Those are the ministers who would know
their acts the most. It would provide Canadians with political
accountability about who is making decisions, as opposed to
sending it to some murky area known as the cabinet.
I have a lot of respect for the Minister of Human Resources
Development and the Minister of National Revenue. These are
individuals who know their portfolios quite well. However, why
would we ask them to make an intervention in a piece of
legislation that, quite honestly, they do not study on a day to
day basis. That is why I believe it is more prudent for us to
have it done by the Minister of Health, the Minister of the
Environment and one other. My amendment tries to do that in this
very section.
I would also like to point out a couple of other motions that
the Progressive Conservative Party intends to support. The first
one is the NDP Motion No. 26. It attempts to further entrench
the precautionary principle in the administrative duties section
of the act. We supported this inclusion of the principle at
committee stage and we support this motion which defines what the
precautionary principle means for the purposes of this section.
NDP Motion No. 83 attempts to do the same, except this time it
defines the reference to precautionary principle referred to in
the section dealing with screening and assessment of toxic
substances.
There is one motion, which I am a little bit troubled by and
which I think Canadians should be very concerned about. It is
Motion No. 206 tabled by the Reform Party. This motion, dealing
with emergency planning, refers to one of the most severe toxins
in existence being slated as a schedule 1 toxin. Once a
substance has been slated as being toxic, the government can then
ask a particular industry or company to provide a pollution
prevention plan. This motion will not allow that. Once a toxin
has been slated for fast-tracking to a schedule 1 toxin, the
Reform Party wants to wait to have it approved by cabinet.
What concerns me is that the Reform Party believes that cabinet
may actually say, “Well, we know this is a very harmful
substance, but, gosh, maybe we should not do it anyway”. I
think the Minister of the Environment and the Minister of Health
should be able to make that call. If it is toxic, it is toxic
and it requires a pollution prevention plan.
I know industry is not that concerned about that particular
amendment. I would think that if we are protecting human health
and the environment, then that would be the right thing to do.
Given that I do not have enough time to speak about the large
number of amendments that we have, I am very pleased with the
position we have taken in terms of virtual elimination, as it is
a workable definition.
Given that our motion will be up first, I trust that the Reform
Party, the government and the Bloc, which have similar motions
that accomplish the same objective, will vote for our motion as
opposed to voting for another for purely partisan purposes.
1625
Mr. Rick Casson (Lethbridge, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is
indeed a pleasure to be here to speak to Bill C-32 after toiling
for a year in committee on the bill. It is great to have it back
in the House and to have the opportunity to debate it in a public
forum.
As has been mentioned by some members, it has been quite a
process. The bill was first tabled in the House on March 12,
1998. We are now 14 months to the day from the time it was first
read in the House. We have had witnesses from all aspects of
Canadian society. We have had industry, people from the
environmental groups and people speaking to us about children. We
should listen to everybody in Canada because pollution prevention
is everybody's job and everybody's problem.
We dealt with 400 or 500 amendments at committee and now we have
230-some more. This just goes on and on. We debated at length
many aspects of pollution prevention in committee. Certain
members of the committee wanted to take the bill in one direction
and some wanted to take it in another. Quite frankly, we felt
fairly comfortable with the bill that was presented in the first
place.
It is one thing to try to take a piece of legislation to the nth
degree to command and control absolutely everything, but if we do
that, I believe we would lose some of the people involved in the
process. The bill will limit the use of toxins in our society
and in the way we do business. If we are going to alienate the
people in the country who are involved in the use of those and
take the bill to a point where it is not manageable or not
workable, then I believe we are doing more harm to the
environment than if we come up with something reasonable.
Balance is a word we have heard a lot of and will continue to
hear as we debate the bill. We must have the proper balance. We
cannot go too far one way and we certainly cannot go too far the
other way. We have to stand back and look at what we are doing
on occasion to see if there is a little bit of common sense in
what is going on. Canada has to stay in tune with the rest of
the world. We have to fulfil some of the international
obligations that we have been part of. We also have to be a
leader and, in many aspects, we can be.
Over the months that this was at committee, the hardest working
person on the Hill was the whip of the Liberal Party. We had
people sit and vote in committee who, quite frankly, I had never
seen before. They certainly did not know the issues but they did
vote. It was an interesting scenario to live through. We saw
people at the committee who were talking on telephones, reading
newspapers and whatnot. It was unfortunate that had to happen.
Our party attended as many meetings as we could. If we look back
at the record, we attended most. We were there and took part in
the debate.
The Reform Party originally put forward very few amendments
because we felt it was a bill that had balance, that could work,
and that it was a piece of legislation that would help Canadians.
I will read a little from the preamble to bring back into focus
what the bill is intended to do. The bill is an act respecting
pollution prevention and the protection of the environment and
human health in order to contribute to sustainable development.
We can all agree with that because it does not split up sections
of the environment or sections of human life. It says “the
environment” in total and “human health” in total.
My colleague from Macleod, being a medical doctor, knows that
human health applies to human life no matter what age or form.
Some people may try to indicate that some aspects of our
population are more at risk than others, but the bill addresses
human health in total.
Its declaration and preamble states in part:
It is hereby declared that the protection of the environment is
essential to the well-being of Canadians and that the primary
purpose of this act is to contribute to sustainable development
through pollution prevention.
1630
Sustainable development is an important part of any
environmental bill.
Whereas the Government of Canada seeks to achieve sustainable
development that is based on an ecologically efficient use of
natural, social and economic resources and acknowledges the need
to integrate environmental, economic and social factors in the
making of all decisions by government and private entities;
That is something we firmly believe in. We have to take into
effect the social and economic aspects of any piece of
legislation as it goes forward. If we make it too restrictive,
then we are going to lose some of the players in the game.
Whereas the Government of Canada is committed to implementing the
precautionary principle that, where there are threats of serious
or irreversible damage, lack of full scientific certainty shall
not be used as a reason for postponing cost-effective measures to
prevent environmental degradation;
We have to remember these issues as we talk about the bill, what
is and is not in it and the amendments that are brought forward.
It is going to take us a while to get through them all. It gets
a little complex as we try to bring in a bill that has some
reason and some scope.
One aspect we are dealing with in this group of motions is the
use of toxic substances. The government has consistently focused
on managing releases of toxic substances and not their uses. Our
proposals ensure that the bill is consistent with the relevant
toxic management strategies incorporated in the UNCED's Agenda
21, keeping us in step with the rest of the world. This agenda is
generally pursued by the international community in its risk
reduction activities.
Amendments brought forward by some of the committee members
alter this approach by expanding the scope of CEPA from its
current focus on emissions to the use of toxic substances. There
are 23,000 substances in use; 12 have been classed as toxic.
These substances are going to be used. They need to be used. It
is the control and keeping them under control and stopping the
release that this bill has to focus on. It is not the use that
is a cause for concern; it is the improper management and the
release of these substances that cause the adverse effects.
Motions Nos. 1 and 13 deal with the use of toxic substances and
address these concerns. Motion No. 1 proposes that lines 19 to
21 of the preamble be returned to the original text. That would
take the bill back to where it started which was something we
were quite comfortable with. The government and the Bloc have
proposed motions similar to Motion No. 1 which effectively
accomplish the same thing. We have general support to move in
the same direction.
Government Motion No. 14 only partially addresses concerns
regarding the management of toxic substances. Our Motion No. 13
is preferable to Motion No. 14 which is not adequate and is only
a marginal improvement. It is critical that we do not consider
use of toxic substances separately from the release of toxic
substances as this derogates from the risk based principles that
are intended to be the foundation of this bill.
It is going to be quite interesting as we go through all of
this. Motions from three different parties which are worded
somewhat differently could eventually work out to be the same
thing. It is important how the groupings take place.
The other issue is inherent toxicity. Amendments put forward by
the Reform Party and the government also address this issue.
Inherent toxicity has been left undefined in this bill as a
result of the committee amendments. If inherent toxicity is left
undefined, it could lead to substances being proposed for virtual
elimination without their going through the traditional risk
assessment. Our proposals address this.
Our Motion No. 87 ensures that substances that have been
determined to be toxic by risk assessment, not by the minister,
can go to virtual elimination. Motion No. 87 ensures that the
decision making is scientific rather than political.
Government Motion No. 88 addresses the same concern. However its
amendment does not go far enough.
1635
I will end here because we will have other opportunities to
speak as we go through this process. We have eight groupings so
we can speak eight times to the issue.
Hon. Charles Caccia (Davenport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is
quite evident from the interventions by the Reform Party that it
wants a weaker bill. It wants a bill that loses its original
intent and mandate in a manner which makes it extremely weak.
The words used by the member for Lethbridge is also interesting.
He talked about the players in the game and that we must be a
leader. The question is in what?
Neither the member for Lethbridge nor his other Reform Party
colleague referred to public health once. Their main concern is
the quite evident preoccupation with the industrial side of this
bill and not with its health side.
We might as well call a spade a spade and make it clear that
Reform has been on the wrong tack with this bill from the word
go. It has also supported in committee every attempt to weaken
this bill as it is doing here in the House today.
The parliamentary secretary to the minister was quite right when
she referred in her intervention to this bill being a reasonably
strong bill. She went as far as to describe it in very positive
terms. That description would only be valid if the amendments by
the government at report stage are not carried. If they are,
then this bill will be weak and it will not perform the intent
that was expressed so well and so clearly by the government in
1995 when it replied to the report of the Standing Committee on
Environment and Sustainable Development entitled “It's about our
Health”.
In the limited time available I will try to address Motions Nos.
2, 14, 67 and 88.
Motion No. 2 would eliminate the words “to phase out the
generation and use of the most persistent”. “The generation
and use” are important words. We put them in at committee.
Actually it was “to phase out the generation”. We thought in
the long term that a bill whose aims are the prevention of
pollution and the protection of public health should have an
indication of that nature in the preamble. Therefore this
amendment should be resisted.
Motion No. 14 is an amendment whereby in the administrative
duties of the government the products of biotechnology would be
deleted. It is very unfortunate that the government would see fit
to present such a motion. It implies that the products of
biotechnology should be the domain of just one department, namely
the Department of Industry, as if biotechnology is a matter of
economic concern alone. That is wrong. Biotechnology touches on
a number of values that go far beyond the economic values and
concerns of society. Therefore the deletion of the products of
biotechnology from clause 2(1)(j) ought to be resisted.
I will move on to an item that has already been raised by others
and quite understandably so, namely virtual elimination. We must
be very clear in trying to convey to the public what it is all
about.
1640
When this bill came out of committee, as it now stands before us
before any amendment, the matter of eliminating, so to say in
vague terms, toxic substances would be the prerogative of the
ministers. The ministers, as the bill reads right now, shall
make regulations respecting allowable releases. It is left to the
two responsible ministers, environment and health, to make that
determination.
The amendment being proposed by the government says that there
would have to be a precondition before this could take place. In
other words an obstacle is set in the way of the two ministers.
Namely the specification by the ministers of the level of
quantification for each substance on this famous list called
virtual elimination would be a precondition to the making of the
regulation. This is a considerable weakening of the clause as it
is presently in the bill and when it came from committee.
It is quite clear that we have yielded to pressures, to
lobbyists. We have somehow decided to put forward an amendment,
and it is most unfortunate that the government would have done
that, that is watering down and weakening the handling of the
very central issue in the bill of virtual elimination of toxic
substances.
Virtual elimination is a central key issue which requires
considerable debate and not just the few minutes that are
available to us.
The idea that was conceived in committee of the ultimate
reduction of toxic substances has disappeared. There is no clear
requirement to continue as it is intended to ratchet down the
limits of release. The proposed amendment will legitimize the
continued use of toxic substances which is a very unfortunate
development. Therefore, I would urge colleagues not to vote for
this amendment.
Motion No. 88 deals with the question of inherent toxicity. This
amendment is extremely difficult to explain in the course of this
debate. Again it weakens the bill because it removes the
possibility of having access to a faster track for the
elimination of harmful substances. It is an amendment that ought
to be rejected.
The amendment seriously weakens the work of the committee whose
permanent members attempted very conscientiously to find ways of
reinforcing the thrust of the bill with the main purpose of the
bill in mind, namely that of preventing pollution and of
protecting human health. We are dealing here with some very
dangerous substances. We are dealing here with a process that
requires some clear measures that aim at the long term
elimination of substances that are harmful to human health and to
the environment.
1645
The committee has attempted to do that. However, a number of
amendments in Group No. 1 would weaken that effort and the
substance of the bill before us this afternoon.
For these reasons I urge my colleagues in the House of Commons
to reject the major amendments in Group No. 1, and particularly
the ones that I referred to in my brief presentation.
[Translation]
Ms. Hélène Alarie (Louis-Hébert, BQ): Mr. Speaker, Bill C-32,
which is now at report stage, proposes to renew the Canadian
Environmental Protection Act.
The bill addresses the following aspects: pollution prevention,
toxic substances, air and water purity, pollution control and
waste, environmental emergencies, biotechnology, federal
government operations on federal and aboriginal land,
administration and application of penalties, information
gathering, guidelines and codes of practice, and finally, public
participation.
This act may be full of good intentions, but it is equally full
of imprecision.
It must be kept in mind that the study of Bill C-32 started back
in the fall of 1998, and ran until April 1999. After 60
sittings, a total of 580 amendments had been submitted during
the clause by clause examination of the bill. The committee
adopted 160 of them. As a result, the bill is inconsistent in
many regards.
The most critical point in this bill is, in my opinion, the lack
of harmonization with the provinces. While the original version
called for the federal government to act within the spirit of
intergovernmental agreements, the government majority softened
that requirement by adding the words “endeavour to” before the
word “act”.
The Bloc Quebecois maintains that the federal government must
always work within a framework of harmonization with the
provinces, with a view to avoiding duplication and overlap of
legislation and regulations.
Since Quebec has its own specific nature, we insist on being
allowed to speak for ourselves when our interests are at stake.
Despite the fact that, in theory, Bill C-32 acknowledges that the
environment is a shared responsibility between the federal and
provincial governments, in practice it delegates no powers to
the provinces.
The purpose of Bill C-32 is to enhance still further the federal
government's preponderance as far as environmental protection is
concerned. That is the major point on which amendments are
required. Otherwise the situation will get worse instead of
better.
On the subject of products of biotechnology, the bill
establishes a federal safety net and the authority to make
regulations for the safe and effective use of biotechnology for
environmental purposes. Clauses 104 to 115 apply here.
What does it mean? Where are we in the vital matter of
biotechnologies? Who is prepared to educate the public? In
what area does the bill require products of biotechnology that
meet international standards and are subject to recognized
scientific rules? When will we deal with labelling? Who, in
the government, will finally take the lead in this matter and
not look at biotechnology only in terms of toxicity?
The weakness of clauses 104 to 115 and their approach to the
subject of biotechnology is a bit confusing.
There is another aspect of the harmonization of this bill with
the provincial governments I consider very important.
It is a field of jurisdiction in which the Province of Quebec is
at the forefront and needs no help the federal government. I am
referring to the control of water, land and air pollution in
agriculture.
1650
Quebec pork producers complete the agri-environmental picture of
their farms. Each farm is studied to determine its physical
characteristics, level of pollution, production capacity and
quantity of input so that the impact of the pork producers on
their community is known quasi scientifically. It is easy
therefore to correct discrepancies.
This picture will be extended to other farming activities. It
is a procedure that is unique in North America and a real
agri-environmental realization.
Farmers in Quebec are also required to produce an
agri-environmental plan, which is a management tool or an
integrated fertilization plan for farms. These plans are done by
professionals or farmers who have taken courses and proper
training. This is an example of making this community
responsible, which has already proven effective.
For all these reasons, we have faith in our provincial
government, which is a leader in environmental matters and must
be given full latitude in areas under its jurisdiction.
In light of the amendments adopted in committee, the Bloc
Quebecois opposes this bill at report stage and third reading.
Mr. Clifford Lincoln (Lac-Saint-Louis, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in any
legislation, words are powerful. Through them public opinion and
the courts can judge legislation.
However, as powerful as words may be, any piece of legislation
is much more than its wording and words. Indeed, any act of
parliament is also an expression and a symbol of the primary
objective and intent of the government proposing it.
Moreover, any act of parliament includes certain words and
provisions, which, because of the pertinence of their meaning
and intent, carry a critical significance.
[English]
In the 10 minutes which are allowed to me I can dwell only on a
few key elements of the very strong reservations I have regarding
certain amendments now before us to Bill C-32, concerning the
Canadian Environmental Protection Act, at report stage.
The first strong reservation I have relates to the issue
referred to as inherent toxicity. The bill, as it now stands,
provides under clause 77 that if the Ministers of the Environment
and Health are satisfied that a substance may cause lasting harm
because it is persistent and biocumulative and that it is
inherently toxic to human beings and other living species, the
ministers can recommend that the substance be added to the
official list of toxic substances and, in some cases, earmarked
for virtual elimination.
On the recommendation of big industry, the chemical industry,
the mining industry and other sectors of big business, we are now
faced with amendments which will make it immensely more difficult
for the ministers to act. Indeed, before they can exercise any
judgment or discretion as to the danger of a substance, the
substance must have already been determined to be toxic or
capable of becoming toxic, according to the provisions of the
law.
This is a huge departure from the current test. It effectively
nullifies the powers of the two ministers to take prompt action
on being satisfied that a substance is inherently toxic and thus
dangerous for human health and the environment.
1655
For example, under the amendment proposed by big industry, which
is now before us, a protracted risk assessment would be required.
To quote one of the committee's main expert advisors during the
clause by clause study of the bill, this amendment is “very
significant”. He said “The proposed change would gut the bill
of the significant direction taken in this clause toward inherent
toxicity”. This advisor sat with us throughout the total
revision of the original CEPA bill of 1988. He is one of the
foremost experts, an environmental lawyer who has sat through all
the various revisions, the amendments and the complete work of
the committee so far.
I would point out that the inherent toxicity concept was
endorsed by the government in its 1995 official response to the
committee's report of the same year, entitled “It's about our
Health”, and was reflected as well in the predecessor to Bill
C-32, namely Bill C-74, which died on the order paper prior to
the 1997 election.
My second main reservation concerns the concept of virtual
elimination of toxic substances. The original wording of the
virtual elimination provision contained in the bill when it was
sent to the standing committee for study was judged by the
government to be too convoluted and confusing, with which we
agreed fully. Therefore, under the direction of the Deputy
Minister of Environment Canada a new clause was submitted to the
committee as an amendment to the original one. It was moved by
the parliamentary secretary in committee and passed with the
backing of a large majority. I am sure the Reform Party was
against it because it was against every provision which related
to the protection of the environment and human health when it
affected industry. The Reform Party is traditionally onside with
big industry, so when I say the backing of a large majority, I am
certain that Reform would systematically be against it, as it is
against any provision that speaks of human health and the
environment.
Now the government wants to amend its own clause. Big business
has asked for the amendment and we have accepted significant
recommendations of big business and amended the clause
accordingly.
I would like to quote excerpts from a letter from a group of
industrial concerns which was written to the government and to
all MPs of all stripes. This group consists of the Alliance of
Manufacturers and Exporters of Canada, the Canadian Chamber of
Commerce, the Canadian Chemical Producers Association, the
Canadian Electricity Association, the Canadian Federation of
Agriculture, the Canadian Petroleum Products Institute, the
Canadian Pulp and Paper Association, the Canadian Steel
Producers, Dow Chemical, Imperial Oil, and the Mining Association
of Canada.
This is what they said, among other things:
Unless changes are made, results such as requirements to shut
down wood-burning stoves, or municipal waste incinerators in
Newfoundland's fishing villages would be the outcome.
No less than the president and CEO of Alcan Aluminum wrote to
the government to say, among other things:
If that kind of language is not total fearmongering, I do not
know what is. This is total fearmongering. As if all aluminum
smelters in Canada would close because Bill C-32 would be in
force. If it was not so sad it would be a joke.
Time does not permit me to go into a detailed review of the big
business amendments proposed, except to say that the current
version of virtual elimination in the bill is far better for the
environment and human health and should be kept.
Unfortunately, time does not allow me to cover other aspects of
other amendments with which I fundamentally disagree in Group No.
1, such as the dilution of the powers of the Ministers of the
Environment and Health in favour of decisions made by the
cabinet, which was an alternative strongly endorsed by big
business.
1700
The Ministry of the Environment forms a part of the economic
union committee of cabinet. It is interesting to note that the
co-sponsor of the bill, the Minister of Health, sits on the
social union committee, a different committee. It carries very
little weight compared with much larger and more powerful
ministries such as industry and agriculture.
I was involved with the original Canadian Environmental
Protection Act since this work started five years ago. It has
occupied a significant part of my time since my election in 1993.
When it reached the standing committee I considered Bill C-32 to
be a weak reflection of our commitments in the 1993 and 1997 red
books. After a large amount of diligent work by all members of
the committee, I felt that Bill C-32, as amended in committee,
although nowhere as strong as I would have wanted it to be, was a
step forward and I fully intended to support it. I still do.
However amendments brought by the government have in my view so
diluted certain key provisions of the bill that I find myself
unable to support the bill if such amendments are passed.
As a deeply committed environmentalist this saddens me greatly,
but I dare to hope and continue to hope that between now and
then, before all these steps are taken, before Bill C-32 is
finally passed, that the bill may be restored to the state in
which it is today. I hope that it will not leave that state and
that these amendments will be defeated, at least the amendments
which make it a weaker bill for the environment and human health.
This is my fondest hope, because I certainly wish to vote for the
bill if it is in the condition in which it is today. I hope it
stays that way.
* * *
[Translation]
PUBLIC SECTOR PENSION INVESTMENT BOARD ACT
BILL C-78—NOTICE OF TIME ALLOCATION MOTION
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, an agreement could not be reached
under the provisions of Standing Orders 78(1) or 78(2) with
respect to the report stage and third reading stage of Bill C-78,
an act to establish the Public Service Pension Investment Board,
to amend the Public Service Superannuation Act, the Canadian
Forces Superannuation Act, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Superannuation Act, the Defence Services Pension Continuation
Act, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Pension Continuation Act,
the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act and the Canada
Post Corporation Act and to make a consequential amendment to
another act.
[English]
Under the provisions of Standing Order 78(3) I give notice that
a minister of the crown will propose at the next sitting a motion
to allot a specific number of days or hours for the consideration
of the disposal of proceedings on the said stages.
Some hon. members: Shame.
* * *
CANADIAN ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION ACT, 1999
The House resumed consideration of Bill C-32, an act respecting
pollution prevention and the protection of the environment and
human health in order to contribute to sustainable development,
as reported (with amendment) from the committee; and of
Group No. 1.
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Mr. Speaker, we just heard the government House
leader shutting off debate on a very important pension bill.
Before he leaves the House perhaps he will say that he will not
cut off debate on the CEPA regulations in Bill C-32. I hope the
government will pay attention and understand just exactly what in
God's name we are talking about today.
My fear is that the government will cut off debate on this issue
as well. It is probably one of the most important decisions
facing us in the long term.
Bill C-32 was a piece of government legislation which obviously
was not done very well. There were over 800 amendments to the
bill. I do not know, but I am sure that has to be a record. It
means that the environment department and the government do not
care or are not concerned and are completely out to lunch on
environmental matters.
1705
I will exempt three members of the Liberal Party from my recent
statement. They are the members for Davenport, Lac-Saint-Louis
and York North. I happen to know these three members of the
Liberal Party are deeply concerned about the environment. I know
this because I have spoken to them and I have seen them.
The member for York North, through a lot of hard work and
diligence on her part, just organized an eco-summit in the House
of Commons. My comments to her are very sincere. We have heard
prestigious people in Canada tell us their concerns regarding our
environment, especially when it comes to air quality. I hope she
can promise us that she will not allow the government to gut Bill
C-32 as it is in its current state. If it is not in that state,
I hope she votes against her government on this most important
principle for the future of future generations and other species
we share the country with.
A classic example of how business and friends of the government
are putting pressure on the government in order to change the
regulations is the aquaculture industry in Nova Scotia. It
issues a paper called “Aquanotes”. I could not believe when I
read it the other day. It said that Bill C-32 was coming down
the pike. The environment committee was concerned about the
chemicals, the additives and the pharmaceuticals going into fish
products being produced in open net systems. Its comments were:
“Watch out everybody, the battle has just begun”.
One would assume that a burgeoning industry like aquaculture
would want a full environmental assessment and review of its day
to day activities in order to protect and to advise the citizens
of this country and of nations to which we export seafood that it
is a healthy and very good product for them to consume. Why
would the industry want to fight against any kind of
environmental protection? It is in its best interest to work
with environmental organizations and the provincial and federal
environment departments to come up with the best solutions for
the industry to convince and protect our citizens.
It is incredible that we as a nation have destroyed our inland
fish stocks and on all three coasts. Now we are to grow fish in
pens. We have absolutely no scientific or biological evidence on
how to do it properly and the aquaculture industry fights tooth
and nail on every environmental aspect. It is unbelievable that
it would want to do that. One would think it would want to work
with us in order to come up with long term solutions which will
benefit it and our citizens.
I refer to a conversation I had when I participated in an
environment committee hearing. Bloc, Conservative, Reform,
Liberal and NDP members who participated in the marathon of
lengthy Bill C-32 CEPA debates deserve the Order of Canada. On
and on and on they went. They were very lengthy. There were
some heated exchanges and there were some very long exchanges.
NDP put forward 100 amendments. That is our record. The member
for Churchill River, a Metis aboriginal person, is so concerned
about the environment that he always tells us in caucus that we
have to use the seven generation principle. Whatever we do on
this planet today, we must think about the seven generations down
the road. What effect will it have on our great, great, great
grandchildren? That is very worthy advice. We should all heed
that very simple warning from our first nations people.
I asked a question in early April 1998 of the then deputy
minister of the environment, Mr. Ian Glen. I asked him whether
he had adequate human and financial resources to do his job
properly. Mr. Glen replied “The fair answer, and I think it is
becoming abundantly clear to people, is no”. He went to say
that was one of the challenges they had within their
organization. I bet if I asked that question today I would get
an even more resounding no.
The government come in with Bill C-32. It was a mess when it
came to committee. The committee in its wisdom put forth 800
amendments. As the member for Lac-Saint-Louis just said, it is
not as strong as we would like but in its current form it is a
pretty good compromise.
1710
We have discussed the bill with many environmental groups
including the Sierra Club, the World Wildlife Fund and others.
They say it is not as strong as they would like but it is not
bad. It is a good starting point for the future of our planet.
The government will not commit the human and financial resources
to protect our country and our planet. That is unbelievable.
What will we tell our children? I ask everybody here who has
children, grandchildren or nieces or nephews, what they will tell
them 20 years from now when they are possibly breathing with the
help of an oxygen mask, when they are suffering from forms of
cancer we never saw before, or when the rates of asthma have
increased? What will they tell them? Will we tell them that we
did not know, that we did not understand the problem?
Our lives are good right now but what about our children's
lives? If we cannot think of our children, what are we doing
here? This is not a piece of legislation to ignore. It is the
most important piece of legislation we have in the House.
I made a statement the other day at the eco-summit because a few
years ago when the current heritage minister was the environment
minister she was quoted in the Globe and Mail as saying
that she could not wait to get out of the lowly environment
department and get a higher profile. That is what the Globe
and Mail said a few years back.
Also the other day I asked some very prominent people why in
federal and provincial legislatures the environment department is
placed at the bottom of the list of cabinet ministers while the
finance, industry, treasury board and trade ministers are at the
top.
Without the environment these people would have nothing. It
should be reversed. Everything around us and everything we do is
contained within our environment. I make a passionate plea to
all hon. members to turn their thinking around. Without fresh
air, clean air, clean soil and water, without the biodiversity of
the other species we share the planet with, we are nothing. We
are just skin, bones and minerals. That is all we are. If we
cannot think in those terms we are doomed in the long term.
The member for Lac-Saint-Louis talked about big industries
saying that all the plants would shut down. What a load of bunk.
It is an absolute load of crap. I am sorry to say that but the
member is absolutely right. It is just a threat that we should
ignore. We have to understand that we must make environmental
protection as strong as we possibly can.
In my remaining time I wish to thank the following people for
their efforts. First I thank Mr. Don Maclean for trying to
prevent an expressway through the largest urban park in North
America, the Red Hill Creek. He tried to stop that expressway so
that people could go from one place to another faster. It would
have destroyed the air quality of the Hamilton area and we do not
need it.
I also thank Mr. Paul Muldoon, Ms. Elizabeth May of the Sierra
Club and Mr. Mark Butler of the Ecology Action Centre. There are
many others I could mention. These men and women are dedicated
to preserving our environment, to working with federal and
provincial governments of all political stripes in order that we
can live in harmony with our planet and we can share our
resources for seven generations down the road.
If we do not, as many other people have mentioned before me, we
will be doomed. That will be the end of it because without a
proper environment we can kiss our ass goodbye.
Ms. Paddy Torsney: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. A lot of people have a lot of things to say about the
bill and one of the things I would hope is that people would be
accurate. The member opposite has just referenced quotes from
the Globe and Mail—
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): That is debate. That
is certainly not a point of order.
Mrs. Karen Kraft Sloan (York North, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have worked on this legislation since 1994 and it has been a long
five years. I can attest to that.
We have before the House not just a set of amendments but a
fundamental decision on the direction in which we will take the
country with regard to environmental and health protection.
In this place we are the elected representatives of a free and a
democratic nation.
This is a privilege and a responsibility which we must take very
seriously.
1715
We have a huge responsibility to honour, respect and protect
those things that Canadians cherish the most. The preservation
of the natural environment and the protection of human health are
two such things that Canadians feel very deeply about.
A dear friend of mine has said that the issue of the environment
will be the defining issue of the 21st century. I say to my hon.
colleagues in this place that over the course of this debate and
the ensuing vote on the amendments to Bill C-32, the Canadian
Environmental Protection Act, what we say and how we vote will
define us.
I want to address one of the issues that an hon. member has
already raised and that is the amendment to make changes to
section 77(3), which deals with the removal of inherent toxicity.
The government response in 1996 agreed with the standing
committee that virtual elimination can be proposed for substances
that are inherently toxic. Bill C-74 in 1996 also agreed with
that. When the current bill, Bill C-32, came before the
committee it also agreed with this point.
I made a lot of arguments on the issue of including inherent
toxicity within the CEPA toxic definition. I was told that that
was unacceptable and it could be handled in other ways, for
example, in section 77(3). Therefore, I am very concerned that
inherent toxicity has been taken out of this section. In the
words that have already been uttered in this place by someone who
has worked as a consultant and an environmental lawyer on this
very legislation, this proposed amendment is very significant and
would gut the bill of the significant direction taken in this
clause toward inherent toxicity.
Two other issues that I would like to address deal with Motions
Nos. 1 and 2, the phase-out of generation and use, and the
motions dealing with virtual elimination.
The original definition of virtual elimination, as worded in
Bill C-32, was seen to be too convoluted, conflicting and
confusing to be effectively implemented. Under the advice of the
Deputy Minister of Environment Canada, the government moved to
amend the wording of virtual elimination in Bill C-32. This
change adopts word for word the definition used in the 1995 toxic
substance management policy, a policy adopted by the government
in a multi-stakeholder process.
I would like to underscore for the House that it has been
acceptable to industry for the past four years, yet in recent
weeks and months industry lobbyists have mounted an assault on
this provision.
The new amendment to Bill C-32 , if accepted, would diverge from
the toxic substance management policy. Virtual elimination, as
defined in the bill, will not shut down plants as asserted by
industry. If this policy has been in effect for the past four
years, why is investment not flooding out of this country? It is
not.
I would also like to remind colleagues that while we are making
decisions on a national piece of legislation, the effect of our
decisions on virtual elimination will affect an international
process that we are currently undergoing around the issue of
persistent organic pollutants.
The title of this bill is the Canadian Environmental Protection
Act, an act respecting pollution prevention and the protection of
the environment and human health in order to contribute to
sustainable development. This is not a sustainable development
bill as asserted by the Reform Party. Get it straight, guys.
This is a bill about the protection of the environment and human
health. It only contributes to sustainable development. It is
not a sustainable development bill.
The motion that deletes “generation and use” from the preamble
will make it difficult to prevent pollution. By focusing only on
the reduction of the release of pollution, it will make it
difficult to work toward preventing pollution. Disasters such as
Bhopal and other minor but more frequent incidents such as
accidental discharges and spills result from the misguided notion
of relying on containment only.
1720
Various international toxic initiatives which have been taken,
for example, by the UN, the OECD and the North American
Commission for Environmental Co-operation, recognize that this is
folly. They are moving toward use reduction and not just
focusing on release.
Pollution prevention is a stated policy of the government. The
bill, as it is before the House, with the inclusion of the
reduction of generation and use, would better ensure pollution
prevention. Its approaches, as I have mentioned, are closer to
what is happening in the U.S. and Europe. If we allow this
amendment to go through simply focusing on release will not be
good enough.
I would ask hon. colleagues to consider how they want to define
themselves and what it is that they want to stand for. If we
want a bill that actually works toward the protection of the
health of Canadians and the environment of Canadians we have to
defeat the amendments that weaken this bill.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland): The Parliamentary
Secretary to the Minister of the Environment, earlier on a point
of order, sent me a note requesting that if the member for
Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore has a citation with
regard to a quote of the present Minister of Canadian Heritage,
perhaps he would make that available to the House.
[Translation]
Mr. Bernard Bigras (Rosemont, BQ): Mr. Speaker, it is with great
pleasure that I rise today to speak to Bill C-32.
I would like to begin by congratulating my colleague, the member
for Jonquière, on the excellent work she has done in recent
weeks on this issue. As the former environment critic, I passed
on to her all the material I had.
Having frequently discussed the bill with her, I think the
member for Jonquière has done a good job of incorporating the
concept of sustainable development favoured by the United
Nations commission on the environment and development.
This fundamental concept, developed and put forward by Norway's
Prime Minister Brundtland, clearly states that any economic
development must now take environmental concerns into
consideration. It is important that this be noted.
Whenever it has taken a position on environmental issues, the
Bloc Quebecois has always borne in mind this fundamental concept
that economic development must respect the environment. The
member for Jonquière covered it well during her statements in
committee.
Today, I am proud to take part in this debate. Basically, Bill
C-32 introduces provisions to implement pollution prevention, new
procedures for the investigation and assessment of substances,
and new requirements with respect to substances that the
Minister of the Environment and the Minister of Health have
determined to be toxic.
The list of such substances is extensive and a few examples are
in order. Investigators will be given new powers and there will
be new regulatory measures to deal with offences.
A few months ago, some sensational statements were made. A
number of senior officials of the Department of the Environment
wondered very openly—and this was mentioned by the member who
spoke before me—whether their department could still monitor
offending businesses, so draconian had the cuts been.
1725
Having sat on the standing committee on the environment with
some of my colleagues from across the floor, I remember the
eloquent representations that were to be reflected in the report
tabled by the committee. This is a report that was rather
staunchly defended by committee members a few months ago.
The report pointed out the lack of resources available to
investigators. Today, it is said, we want to improve the
Canadian Environmental Protection Act, commonly known as CEPA.
However, it is regrettable that the Minister of Finance is not
here today, as we undertake the debate to renew that act.
It should be pointed out that investigators are not given the
means to do their job properly. This is deplorable, if we
basically want to ensure better environmental protection.
The question we must answer on this side of the House as
representatives of Quebec is what powers will the renewed CEPA
delegate to Quebec and the other provinces in Canada.
Although in theory Bill C-32 recognizes that responsibility for
the environment is shared between the federal government and the
provinces, in practice it delegates no powers to them. And this
runs counter to real environmental harmonization between the
various levels of government. Bill C-32 unfortunately aims at
strengthening the federal government's preponderance in the
field of environmental protection.
This centralization runs counter to the clearly expressed wish
of the Quebec National Assembly to participate fully in the
environmental assessment of any project on its territory. The
bill is also in flagrant contradiction with the spirit of the
harmonization process launched between the federal government
and the provinces. This is why the Government of Quebec has
pulled out of negotiations, and is looking further into this
promising process.
The bill thus opens the door to duplication of federal and
provincial powers. The federal government is justifying its
interference in Quebec's areas of jurisdiction by invoking the
recent supreme court decision with respect to Hydro-Québec. This
case has always been contested by Quebec. All the courts that
ruled on it, including Quebec's highest court, the Court of
Appeal, declared the federal government's order invalid.
Only the supreme court, with its unitary vision of Canada,
overturned the Quebec court rulings.
Bill C-32 also contains a number of new features. For instance,
the government wants to replace the existing federal-provincial
CEPA committee with a new national advisory committee. This
committee would consist of one representative each from
Environment Canada and Health Canada, one representative from
each province and territory, and up to six aboriginal
representatives. This committee will advise the two federal
ministers on the drafting of regulations, the management of
toxic substances, and other matters of mutual interest.
We cannot understand why the bill clashes with the
harmonization the government claims to have as a priority.
Let us not forget that Quebec refused to sign the Canadian
Council of Ministers of the Environment agreement on January 29,
1998. When the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment
met at that time, Quebec Environment Minister Paul Bégin refused
to subscribe to that agreement, as long as the conditions called
for by Quebec are not met by the federal government.
These conditions include recognizing that Quebec has primary
jurisdiction in certain areas, under the Constitution.
1730
The federal government has made a firm commitment to amend the
federal legislation. This means Bill C-32, the purpose of which
is to amend the Canadian Environmental Protection Act.
In addition, Quebec and the federal government have signed a
bilateral agreement with respect to environmental assessments.
As well, the minister—
The Deputy Speaker: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member but
time has run out. When debate resumes he will have two minutes
left in which to complete his remarks.
[English]
Mr. John Herron: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I am quite concerned. Just a few moments ago we were advised
that there will be a briefing tomorrow at 11 a.m. in Room 215,
Wellington Building concerning Bill C-32. I was under the
impression that anything the government might want to say or not
say with respect to this legislation would actually be said in
the House of Commons.
The Deputy Speaker: I am afraid that does not sound like
a point of order to me. I have to say to the hon. member that
briefings around here are commonplace. I am sorry, I do not
think there is a point of order there.
I am proposing that we proceed now to the consideration of
Private Members' Business as listed on today's order paper.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[English]
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Maurice Vellacott (Wanuskewin, Ref.) moved:
That, in the opinion of this House, the
government should defend section 43 of the Criminal Code in the
courts and should invoke the notwithstanding clause of the
Charter of Rights and Freedoms if necessary.
He said: Mr. Speaker, it is a real pleasure to speak to Motion
No. 528, a motion that would protect parents and their children
from state intrusion.
The motion says that in the opinion of this House, the
government should defend section 43 of the Criminal Code in the
courts. If the government does that, then all is fine and well
and we may carry the day with that. It should also be prepared to
invoke the notwithstanding clause of the charter of rights and
freedoms if necessary. We believe that vigorous defence of
section 43 of the Criminal Code in the courts would not even
require that.
Under current law parents are allowed to use physical correction
to discipline their children, as long as it is not abusive and is
reasonable under the circumstances. The relevant statute is
section 43 of the Criminal Code which reads as follows:
Every schoolteacher, parent or person standing in the place of a
parent is justified in using force by way of correction toward a
pupil or child, as the case may be, who is under his care, if the
force does not exceed what is reasonable under the circumstances.
Prior to the enactment of this section of the code there was no
legislation placing limits on the use of physical correction, nor
were there any government agencies to protect children from
abuse.
It was precisely to protect children from abuse that section 43
of the Criminal Code was passed into law. Now thanks to section
43, parents cannot physically abuse their children in the name of
discipline. As long as the police and the courts do their jobs,
child abusers will be prosecuted under the law. In my view they
ought to be, to the very full extent of the law and right up to
the supreme court if necessary.
It is very ironic therefore that some people who want to remove
section 43 from the Criminal Code argue that it only protects
parents' rights when in fact parliament's original intent in
framing section 43 was to protect children. These so-called
child advocates have totally missed the point. They have missed
the wise intention of parliament in giving us this part of the
Criminal Code.
For that reason section 43 strikes that necessary balance
between the rights of parents and the rights of children. On the
one hand, parents must have the freedom to fulfil their
responsibility to their children and to society to raise their
children to be moral and decent people who respect others. On
the other hand, children have the right to be free from physical
abuse and bodily harm.
Section 43 strikes that appropriate balance. It is a good law
that was well conceived, which has served its purpose well and
continues to serve us well today.
That is why I find it very disconcerting that some children's
rights advocates want to see section 43 declared by the courts to
be in violation of the charter of rights and freedoms.
1735
This past fall a group which was thrown together very quickly
called Justice for Children and Youth submitted an application to
the Ontario court, general division asking the court to declare
section 43 to be in violation of the charter and therefore
unconstitutional. This case will be heard sometime in the coming
months. If this group succeeds in having section 43 struck down,
the results would be absurd and totally unacceptable in our
country.
First of all many good and loving parents would be made into
criminals overnight and could be charged under the Criminal Code.
That would be a disgrace to our judicial system. The public
gets frustrated enough when they hear about bizarre court rulings
as we have had in Saskatchewan or B.C. or elsewhere, rulings that
pose a threat to their freedoms and the well-being of their
families.
If section 43 of the Criminal Code were to be struck down, the
massive intrusion of the state into the private sphere that would
result boggles the mind. Trudeau said that the state has no
business being in the bedrooms of the nation, but anyone who
removes section 43 will be moving the state right into the
nation's family rooms. That would be tragic. The state makes a
lousy parent and the state should not presume to tell parents how
best to shape the moral character of their children as long as
abuse is not involved.
That is why I have introduced this motion calling on the
government to defend section 43 of the Criminal Code in the
courts and to invoke the notwithstanding clause of the charter of
rights and freedoms if necessary. We believe that would only be
a last resort. If it does this vigorous defence of section 43 in
the courts we will prevail.
The aim of this motion is to enable caring non-abusive parents
to do the best job possible of raising their children to be
responsible well-adjusted individuals and members of society.
Section 43 actually protects the rights of parents to raise
their children in accordance with their moral and religious
beliefs about effective child rearing. It protects the rights of
parents to raise their children in accordance with their personal
knowledge of the unique characteristics of their children. It
also protects the rights of parents to raise their children in
accordance with their understanding of how best to discipline
children and to gain from their parents, to gain from other
training and to gain from their own experiences during childhood.
The motion before us today accomplishes this goal in two ways.
First, it requires that the government defend section 43 of the
Criminal Code in the courts, to defend it vigorously and to use
the best law resources in that defence. Second, in the event
that one or more court rulings strikes down section 43, then the
motion would commit the government to invoke the notwithstanding
clause of the charter of rights and freedoms. Notwithstanding a
court's decision to strike down the law, section 43 would then
remain the law of the land.
After the Shaw decision in British Columbia on the right to have
child pornography, I think that parliamentarians more than ever
understand and realize that parliament has an obligation to
protect Canadians from nonsensical judicial rulings.
While parenting has always been a challenge, raising children to
be responsible and law-abiding members of society is more of a
challenge today than ever before. The surge in violence during
past decades testifies to this. The recent shootings in high
schools in the U.S. and Canada have horrified all of us. Now is
not the time to handcuff parents in their role as moral guides.
For all of these reasons, I have brought forward this
initiative. I will read it into the record again:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should defend
section 43 of the Criminal Code in the courts and should invoke
the notwithstanding clause of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms
if necessary.
I seek the unanimous consent of the House to have the motion
before us deemed adopted and passed at this time.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent that the
motion be deemed adopted and passed at this time?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
An hon. member: No.
Mr. Maurice Vellacott: Mr. Speaker, I would like to take
the rest of my time to address some of the arguments that are
used by—
The Deputy Speaker: It is normal to move a motion at the
end of the member's speech, but since it was a request for
consent I will allow him to continue.
1740
Mr. Maurice Vellacott: I would like to take the rest of my
time to address some of the arguments that are used by those who
oppose any form of physical correction. We might hear some of
those arguments today from different members.
For example, how will this group, Justice for Children and
Youth, argue in court against section 43? Maybe some of the very
statements we will find in a somewhat empty way coming from the
other side of the House today.
First, Justice for Children and Youth will argue that section 43
violates the charter of rights and freedoms because it
discriminates on the basis of age. It will point out that
because adults are protected by the law from assault, children
should be protected from physical discipline.
The problem with that argument is that a swat on the bottom that
gets a toddler's attention but which does not bruise or do
physical harm is hardly analogous to an assault by one adult
against another. In the case of adults, the intent is to do harm
and the victim often winds up in the hospital. In the case of
discipline by loving parents, the intention is simply to offer a
negative consequence or, we might say, feedback for persistent
misbehaviour and the child is in no way physically harmed by the
discipline.
Second, when it gets to court this advocacy group is going to
argue that physical discipline instead of changing a child's
behaviour for the better causes aggressive tendencies in
children. The assumption is that the child will imitate mom and
dad. If mom and dad use physical discipline, the child who
receives that discipline will start hitting others. When this
argument gets made, we are going to see the absurd in the court
system.
Academics who do research in the field of pediatrics are
currently engaged in a debate over the effects of physical
discipline on children. Does it improve compliance among
children or does it increase aggressiveness? That is the
question being asked by academic people. The debate can be
highly technical. It is clear there is no scholarly consensus
that has emerged in all the issues. In fact, many scholars agree
that there is a woeful lack of research being done in this area,
prompting some of them to call for greater attention and
research.
The point is that this debate in academic halls is still very
much in its infancy. Yet in the near future that debate is going
to shift from the academic journals into the courts. A judge
with no study and no academic background in this area is going to
be hearing conflicting interpretations of research results and
will have to make a decision. This shows just how absurd the
situation with our courts has become under the charter.
Any interest group citing supposed research studies can walk
into a courtroom and try to convince a judge that research shows
that this or that is the case and that the charter is being
violated. It is really an abuse of the court system, something
the court system was never intended for, with judges being asked
to settle academic research questions. That is the role of
parliament. That is the role of this place. That is the role of
committees in calling expert witnesses before committees when
there is time for that kind of thing. Judges are not to make
laws; they are simply to rule on the laws that are in place.
What does the research say about the effects of physical
discipline on children? Does physical correction have positive
outcomes or negative outcomes? Has it led to improved behaviour
in children or has the misbehaviour continued accompanied by new
aggressive tendencies? In one sense the researchers have come to
contradictory conclusions, as I have indicated. Some studies have
found negative outcomes, others positive.
I would like to describe why the conclusions have varied so much
by referring to the work of Dr. Robert Larzelere, of the
University of Nebraska medical school. He published in the
Journal of Pediatrics, one of the most important resources
on this very topic. He undertook a literature review of studies
published in scholarly journals in the last 30 years. He studied
35 relevant articles.
Something rather important for us to note is that many of those
studies, in fact the sum total of 24 of them, did not leave
abusive dysfunctional family situations out of the research. In
fact it came down to only being 11 of the studies that excluded
abusive family situations. Of these 11 that left abusive family
situations out of the research altogether, six of those studies
showed beneficial outcomes, four of them showed neutral outcomes
and only one showed negatived outcomes.
That suggests that when used properly by parents who truly love
their children, physical correction has positive results and no
negative results. Based on these studies, Dr. Larzelere was able
to be specific about the kind of physical punishment that brings
beneficial results. On average he found that in a loving,
responsible, functional home situation there were beneficial
results when corporal correction was used less than weekly.
1745
There were beneficial results when corporal correction was used
at non-abusive levels of severity. There were beneficial results
when it was used by parents who were not physically violent
against family members, for example a father beating a wife or
vice versa.
There were beneficial results when it was used without a
potentially damaging instrument. With corporal correction there
were beneficial results when used from ages two to six. There
were beneficial results when it was used privately, not in
public. There were beneficial results when it was used with
reasoning and explanation.
There were beneficial results when it was used with a moderate
level of child distress. As well, there were beneficial results
when corporal correction was used primarily as a back up for
other methods of discipline. This back up threat made reasoning
and time out more effective, so the need for physical punishment
decreased over time.
Beneficial results occurred when corporal correction was used by
loving parents who were positively involved with their child and
had child oriented motivations. It was not about the parent. It
was about the rearing and the constructive raising of that child.
Corporal correction did not increase the child's fear of
parental discipline. It was beneficial when parents co-operated
with each other in discipline responsibilities and did not use
verbal putdowns. Corporal correction is also beneficial when
parents change their main discipline method to grounding when
their children got older.
Based on those 11 studies that excluded abusive family
situations, physical correction was seen to have positive results
in six of the studies, neutral results in four, and negative
results in one.
I would contend in view of this information that many of the
studies had some flawed methodology weaknesses. Of the 35
studies, in fact 24 did. Of the other 11 studies it was found
that on the basis of positive, responsible parenting in other
ways there was positive benefit.
In my summary at the end of the hour I will refer to some
follow-up research done by Marjorie Gunnoe, some very extensive
confirmation of these findings. Again I ask for unanimous
consent for this motion to be deemed adopted in the House today.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent that the
motion be deemed adopted?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Ted McWhinney (Vancouver Quadra, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the government has no difficulty with a great deal of the hon.
member for Wanuskewin's address. We do have difficulty with the
introduction and the tail of his motion of a subsidiary proposal
of constitutional change. That is something I will address a
little later.
In relation to section 43 of the Criminal Code, it is very clear
that Canadian criminal law does not condone or authorize the
abuse of children. Section 43 in its context is merely a limited
defence to a charge of assault. There are several key points
which we should emphasize. It only applies to a parent, teacher
or person acting in the place of a parent and only in respect to
a pupil or child under that person's care. The person is only
permitted to use this defence if force was used for the purpose
of correction. A person who uses force in a fit of rage or in
order to hurt a child cannot claim section 43 as a defence.
Finally, on the issue of proportionality, the force used must be
reasonable in the circumstances.
A court asked to consider applying section 43 in any given case
would look at the nature of the child's behaviour or action
calling for correction, as well as the age of the child, the
severity of the punishment, including any injuries suffered by
the child.
When determining whether the force used is reasonable the
standard is the community standard of reasonableness. There is a
warning that if one goes beyond these limits one may find oneself
before a criminal court, and in appropriate cases criminal
prosecution will be pursued.
It is on the more general issue that we felt we should add some
comments to what the hon. member for Wanuskewin said. Lawmaking
in Canada follows Jeremy Benthan's euphemism that law is not made
by judge alone; it is made by judge and company. There is a
continuum in the law making process. Judges, university law
schools, law reviews and the legal profession have put in their
criticisms. To a very considerable extent our courts have
developed a highly nuanced relationship with the rest of the
legal company. Courts very rarely say tout court, that is out,
that is illegal.
They offer suggestions for changes and modifications and the
sensible response of a ministry of justice is to consider these,
to take them into account and to come back afresh.
1750
This is ordinary legislation. It is not constitutional law. It
can be changed, as can any court decision on it, by subsequent
legislation if parliament thinks so fit. This is in fact a
fairly normal operation with criminal law today.
The legal company involved in monitoring the Criminal Code is
very large and very well informed. It has contributed
significantly to the progressive evolution of our criminal law.
On the notwithstanding clause I should express the reservations
which I advanced in an earlier debate concerning the B.C.
decision, the intermediate court decision in the child
pornography case.
First, there seems to be a certain misunderstanding of the
history and the nature of the notwithstanding clause. Perhaps
this is understandable if we consider that the premiers who
insisted on putting it into the charter of rights may again be
said not to have been fully aware of the constitutional
implications of what they were dealing with. There were not very
many constitutional scholars among them.
As it stands, the notwithstanding clause is a prior issue. It
is addressed to a government introducing new legislation. One
can put it in there if one wishes, but Mr. Trudeau said that it
would be a tragedy if any federal parliament decided to use the
notwithstanding clause in that way.
As the House knows, the only significant use of it has been in a
fit of haste, the reaction of the premier of Quebec toward what
he felt was the way the gang of eight premiers behaved in
relation to the adoption of Constitution Act, 1982, and the
charter of rights. We would regard it as a regrettable step
backward if the federal government were to use the
notwithstanding clause. There are other ways.
This is not the United States Supreme Court where there is an
unbridgable gap or barrier between the courts and Congress, and
where one has to get a constitutional amendment, essentially, to
overturn a judicial decision. Hon. members will be aware that
when the United States court outlawed income taxation on
constitutional grounds it took a constitutional amendment to
override that.
Our situation is different and, in relation to the criminal law,
if parliament should think that the court has misconstrued the
careful balance, the pragmatic balance that it has made in
relation to section 43, it is open to parliament to make
amendment. It is open for the legal community as a whole to
offer the amendments.
In that context we would reaffirm that the notwithstanding
clause is, and I think this was the view of Mr. Trudeau, a
constitutional aberration. I would reaffirm that it is wrong to
use it, as has been suggested with very little care or thought,
as a method of appeal from a judgment of an intermediate court as
was proposed in relation to the British Columbia judgment. The
appeal process must go its way.
This legislature, this parliament, which is a vestigial court in
its own right by the way, is bound by doctrines of comity and
mutual respect to co-ordinate institutions of government. It
would be quite inappropriate for this court to attempt to meddle
with a decision that is being appealed. It would be
discourteous. It would be, in a very large sense,
unconstitutional.
I would suggest to the hon. member, who is very thoughtful and
informed in this area, that we should concentrate on the
substance of the bill. We believe section 43 will withstand
challenge. The government is committed to defending it in the
courts. If there are judicial decisions cutting down its scope,
we will study them with care and the proper respect due to the
co-ordinate authority and we will bring our suggestions to the
House.
I thank the hon. member again for his intervention. On the
substance of his remarks on criminal law, the government finds it
co-ordinates very much with what we have been suggesting in
relation to this bill. On the larger question I would hope that
on reflection he would agree. We understand the sentiments he is
expressing, but the notwithstanding clause is not the way.
1755
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, I am honoured to speak to Motion No. 528. I am
always honoured to follow the lead of the hon. member for
Vancouver Quadra who I think has added, in his very articulate
and vastly insightful way, to the debate today.
I am pleased to have an opportunity to address the motion which
defends section 43 of the Criminal Code and invokes the
notwithstanding clause of the Canadian Charter of Rights and
Freedoms when necessary. I suppose that when necessary clause
defines the issue to some degree.
Is there a need? Is there a pressing concern that would require
this to happen? That in and of itself is something that could be
debated for some time. I am not questioning the merits of what
the hon. member has done by bringing the issue forward. It is my
feeling and the feeling of my party that this debate is useful to
clarify and perhaps reinforce section 43, in particular for the
sake of many parents and teachers who deal with the challenges of
raising and educating today's youth.
Parliament has in its wisdom enacted such a section of the
Criminal Code. I would go further and say that it has been
consistently upheld by our courts at the provincial supreme court
and Supreme Court of Canada levels. Consistently case law
suggests that it has been upheld.
There are instances of which hon. members have been made aware
or perhaps personally encountered where the degree of force has
been brought into question as to how much or how far a parent or
person acting in the stead of a parent can go in correcting a
misbehaving child or youth.
Again I do not mean to trivialize the issue in any way by saying
that this is not a wildfire epidemic which is sweeping the
country. I am not aware at least of any issue of spanking taking
place throughout the country that has resulted in a major court
challenge or in repeated community disruption.
The wording in the section defines the issue, and that is
reasonableness and community standard. These words are
encompassed in the Criminal Code. They define how far a parent
or a person in a parent's place can go in disciplining a child in
response to a misbehaviour or perhaps an action taken by a child.
I do not feel that section 43 is in any jeopardy at this time.
The hon. member also brought forward certain studies and
psychological and methodological evidence which is also helpful
in the debate to define just how far a parent can go and the
reaction or the response of that child to physical correction.
As well it helps to define the fact that this is not a situation
where we are talking about child abuse. I do not believe the
line is that grey at the present time. There are instances where
quite clearly the corrective methods undertaken are
disproportionate and very injurious to a child.
The hon. member referenced the fact that there were instances
that one can envision when harsh words and a berating attitude or
a barrage of language can be perhaps even more painful and have
more deleterious and lasting effects on a child than, for lack of
a better word, a simple physical corrective measure where a child
is stopped physically, for example, from picking on a younger
sibling or partaking in what is deemed to be a dangerous
activity; a teacher takes a child firmly by the arm and marches
him or her down to the principal's office; or one simply removes
something from the child's possession if it poses a danger to
himself or herself or another child.
These types of physical corrective measures are envisioned by
section 43 of the Criminal Code and certainly the type of
measures to which my hon. colleague refers in his remarks. All of
that to say that I do not see the line as being that blurred when
one applies the reasonableness and the community standard test in
place currently in the Criminal Code.
1800
When physical injury results, when marks are left on a child
because of the overreaction of a parent or a person in authority,
that would cross the line. When that occurs and matters, through
the natural course, wind up before the courts, and there is an
opportunity for a judge to review the evidence and the
circumstances, this section is put to the test.
It is understandable that there is concern about this. However,
I would suggest once more that this is not a matter which is in
need, at least at this point, of taking what I would suggest in
the context of the greater debate would be a disproportionate
response, that being the use of the notwithstanding clause.
By invoking the notwithstanding clause, as was referred to by
the hon. member opposite from Vancouver Quadra, the pith and the
substance of doing that would be tantamount to a parent
overreacting and responding in a very disproportionate way and
using a far too extreme form of response or violence to what a
child has done.
I do not mean to diminish what the hon. member is trying to
accomplish, but even the reference of the notwithstanding clause
in relation to this section, I suggest with all respect,
diminishes the importance of what this section is really intended
to do in the context of our Constitution and in the context of
the application of it to our criminal law.
We have seen cases that have come forward quite recently, such
as the case of the Queen and Sharpe and the Queen and Feeney, in
which there is perhaps a need for discussion in the context of
what those cases dealt with. When it comes to the protection of
children from exploitation through pornography, when it comes to
the rules and the laws of search and seizure that empower police
officers in pursuit of criminals that have engaged in very
violent activity, those are recent examples for which one might
envision the invoking of the notwithstanding clause.
For those not intimately familiar with this, what it would do is
essentially strike down a judge's decision and delay or put into
abeyance the significance of the ruling for a period of five
years.
In the greater context, I reiterate with all respect that using
this type of constitutional power in the context of this section
would be extremely ill-founded and ill-timed.
Turning back to the substantive debate, what is being discussed
is the use of corrective proportionate response in the
disciplining of a child. It is fair to say that in these very
trying and troubling times, for youth who are in need of an early
start and proper direction in their lives, there are occasions.
Mr. Speaker, you may have been subjected to a spanking at some
point in your life, as well as other members present. I am sure
that it made an impression, but not the type of impression that
would leave a mark on one's physical person. We are talking
about the type of impression that leaves a person with the
feeling that perhaps they have done something wrong and that they
should not engage in that type of activity.
When we talk about this type of physical corrective measure we
have to be very prudent in encouraging people to do it on the one
hand, but at the same time we do not want to exaggerate the
impact this would have on a child.
When we talk about this section of the Criminal Code, we want to
be careful not to dismiss the issue of child abuse because that
is something that is not sanctioned by section 43 of the Criminal
Code. It is there to ensure that children are protected, but
that parents and those acting in the place of a parent are
permitted in certain very specific instances and factual
circumstances to exercise discretion and the implicit
responsibility that they have to physically correct a child, and
often to do so for the protection of that child.
1805
I am very supportive of the efforts the hon. member has made in
bringing this matter to the floor of the House of Commons. I am
very pleased to take part in the debate, but I would again
suggest that this is not a Criminal Code section that is in
jeopardy currently. It is not a Criminal Code section that is in
danger at this time of being struck down by any current
litigation of which I am aware. The issue itself bears
discussion and it will continue to be respected by our judiciary
and by those in the country who hope to and who will uphold the
laws of the land.
Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to have the opportunity to rise to speak to Motion No.
528, which reads as follows:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should defend
section 43 of the Criminal Code in the courts and should invoke
the notwithstanding clause of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms
if necessary.
What exactly does Section 43 of the Criminal Code state? It
deals with the correction of a child by force. It states:
Every schoolteacher, parent or person standing in place of a
parent is justified in using force by way of correction toward a
pupil or child, as the case may be, who is under his care, if the
force does not exceed what is reasonable under the circumstances.
Therein lies the rub, “what is reasonable under the
circumstances”. We know that what may appear reasonable to one
person may certainly be unreasonable to others.
We oppose this motion. We feel that, if anything, section 43
should be repealed, whereas this motion talks about maintaining
section 43. We feel that it should be repealed because it is a
19th century law that was first codified in 1892 which legally
sanctions physical violence against children. It should be
repealed, not preserved.
Section 43 has been used as a successful criminal defence by
parents who have hit their children with straps, belts, sticks
and extension cords, causing bruises, welts and abrasions.
People have used this defence in court to justify that behaviour
toward children.
Children are the only class of Canadian citizens who can legally
be assaulted for their correction. We do not hit adults to
correct them. We gave up years ago using the whip to correct
adults, but for some reason we feel that we can assault children
to correct them.
People have argued that this does not have any adverse effect
upon children. We agree that it is obvious children have to be
taught and socialized, but the legal right to hit them as a
method of training is wrong because it is contrary to basic human
rights. It promotes violence as a legitimate response to
conflict and it leads to physical and emotional harm to thousands
of children each year.
They can talk about all the studies they want. People can pick
the studies they want to support their point of view. I am going
to give a very real example of how such physical activity,
allegedly to correct a child and probably done by the people
involved thinking it was reasonable under the circumstances,
affected one individual in Canada, and I am sure he is only one
among many.
A constituent wrote to me. I checked with him before coming
here tonight to ask if I could talk a bit about his case. He
said “By all means. Use my name if necessary”, but I will not
use his name. This young fellow was adopted in 1956 and lived in
a small village in Nova Scotia. He talks about his early
childhood when he had a very severe bed wetting problem. What
was his parents' response to this bed wetting problem? They
would spank him to try to cure him of it. That was their
strategy. Instead of curing it, it got worse.
At the age of five he began school. He talks about the
principal as being a huge, six-foot, four-inch tall monster, with
a stern face and a very cold personality. He tells us that this
person would discipline him. He had only been in school a couple
of weeks when he received his first strapping. He said: “Boy
did it hurt. It made my father's spanking feel like child's
play. I stood there with my hand out and I was given 15 straps
on each hand. I was bawling my eyes out and screaming at the top
of my lungs. The louder I screamed, the harder this person
strapped”.
1810
Finally it got so bad he said “I pissed my pants. After the
strapping I was sent back to class in my wet pants until it was
time to go home”. When he got home his mother said “Well, you
must have done something to deserve it”. He was then given a
spanking for wetting his pants. This was all sanctioned under
the code. He was spanked. The mother was enraged and said “He
is not only bed wetting now but he is also wetting his pants”.
This continued until the end of grade one. Then he moved into
grade two. In grade two his principal was a bulky man, about 230
pounds and five feet eight inches tall and made his previous
principal look like a boy scout by comparison. The same thing
happened. He was strapped almost daily. He said “I was
strapped approximately 60 to 70 times in that year and my spirit
was definitely broken”. To make matters worse, the bullies in
his class would chase him home and beat him up.
He said “At eight years old I was a tortured, scared little
boy, very quickly filling with hatred and anxiety and wishing I
was dead”. He talks further about how this kind of abuse
continued in the school system, condoned by the law the Reform
Party would like to maintain and buttress up.
He said “Life had become unbearable and I remember praying to
God on many occasions to let me die and end this insanity. It had
come to the point where every day after school I would run out of
school as soon as the bell rang and head straight for the woods
behind the school and work my way through the woods in order not
to be seen by people and to be beat up by these bullies. Every
morning as the class sang O Canada I would be strapped for
running home through the woods rather than walking home in an
orderly fashion”.
It is a matter of interpretation when people talk about what is
reasonable and unreasonable. I am sure the school authorities of
the day would argue that they were using reasonable means to
train these children and to bring them up in a proper way so that
they would behave properly. We see this activity as far from
reasonable, but people want to maintain this kind of activity.
Over the period of four years he was strapped 300 to 400 times.
When he turned 13 years old, in order to gain acceptance from his
fellow classmates, he turned to alcohol and smoking pot. It
became an addiction. This was the effect of this kind of
discipline and activity in his life. I am sure there are many
people out there who find themselves in similar circumstances and
who over the years have experienced what has been correction by
force.
There are contemporary parenting courses and publications on
child rearing and discipline that give effective and practical
advice on non-violent alternatives to spanking and hitting. Sure
it takes a little bit more work.
My hon. friend from the Conservative Party said that it was
necessary sometimes to have to discipline a child in this way.
We have to find other ways to discipline our children so we are
not hitting them. When we hit a child it in turn teaches them to
hit others and we see it accelerating.
Look at some of the activities taking place today in the school
system and some of the actions of children right across the
country where they have no respect for other people. Part of it
is probably because they have not been respected as a person. We
do not respect a person when we are so much larger than they are
and we grab them when they have no defence and physically shake
or spank them.
The bottom line is we must always ask ourselves how would we
like to be treated? Would we appreciate someone grabbing us and
spanking us? Perhaps some people would. In all honesty no one
wants to be overpowered by someone bigger than themselves. They
do not want to feel helpless and defenceless while they are
physically struck. This is what we are talking about.
We have to look at other means of disciplining our children.
Give them guidance, give them love, give them direction. Set an
example that they would want to follow rather than show them that
it is okay for someone bigger than they are to hit them in order
to correct them. We must ask ourselves are we treating people in
the way we want to be treated?
The Reform Party pays great lip service to family values and the
importance of children, but it does not appear to care about
protecting children from the physical and emotional pain of
violent abuse which is currently safeguarded by section 43. In
advocating the preservation of this section that justifies and
rationalizes corporal punishment, the Reform Party is ignoring
the fact that current conditions are intolerable.
There were 4,229 substantiated cases of physical abuse
investigated in Ontario alone in 1993. Attempts to discipline by
corporal punishment were suspected in 85% of the substantiated
cases.
People oftentimes start out lightly disciplining but as the child
gets a little more stubborn, all of a sudden the parent gets a
little more forceful and what started out perhaps as a gentle
spanking ends up being much worse.
1815
I urge all members of the House to look realistically at this.
They should not try to justify it because of what may have
happened to them in the past, and say “Well, I was spanked and I
am okay”. They should look realistically at what it is doing to
children and be honest with themselves and decide to oppose the
motion and all forms of physical violence to children.
The Deputy Speaker: If the hon. member for Wanuskewin
speaks now he will close the debate.
Mr. Maurice Vellacott (Wanuskewin, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, in my wrap-up
comments I will refer to some remarks made by colleagues on
different sides of the House.
I will first remind members that section 43 has not been in
place many years. My colleague to my immediate right, or to the
left on the political spectrum, does not appear to be aware of
when section 43 came into being.
Physical abuse by an individual some 30 years ago is the very
reason that section 43 was brought in, because there was no
protection for children. There were no agencies in place and
this was the kind of thing that was put in place by well
intentioned lawmakers so there would be protection for children.
It would also seem that some of the members around the House are
not aware of the agenda of the United Nations, and specifically
the convention on the rights of the child. It would appear from
the comments of the last speaker that he certainly is supportive
of that.
Canada sends delegates to the convention on the rights of the
child posturing that they represent the Canadian position but
without having any debate in the House. After having tried to
smooth, sneak or stealth their views by individuals overseas,
they come back to try to browbeat us by saying that the position
of Canada ought to be a small select group of NGOs trying to get
this through at United Nations meetings.
Contrary to what the Progressive Conservative Party member said,
that there was no threat at present, I remind him of a case
coming up in the general division of the Ontario courts.
The government, through the court challenges program, has given
money to this group to challenge section 43. This is not
something in some distant era but something of concern before us
right now, which is being funded by the government.
The member cited a number of different cases being investigated
in Ontario. However, at the end of the day it was found that
only a couple of allegations could be substantiated. It was
decided that what had been alleged by individuals in Ontario had
not occurred.
Studies that found negative outcomes did not take into account
the original frequency or severity of the child's behaviour that
required some discipline in the first place. In other words, if
a child had a severe behavioural problem, and discipline or
punishment was not having any positive results, it did little
good to later blame bad behaviour on the physical punishment when
in many cases the bad behaviour was there to begin with. That
would be like blaming cancer on radiation treatment. It is true
that radiation may not have cured the cancer but that does not
mean it causes it. The cancer was already there.
I referred to the recent confirmation of the very extensive
studies by Dr. Larzelere, or at least his review of the studies.
I also referred to the study done by Marjorie Gunnoe that
provides important confirmation of those findings. On the basis
of her work she has stated that positive or negative outcomes do
not result from physical correction per se but rather from the
meaning a child ascribes to the discipline.
She suggests two plausible ways that children interpret
spanking. First, it is a legitimate expression of parental
authority. Second, it can be an act of interpersonal aggression.
1820
If children perceive discipline as an expression of parental
authority, there will not be, I state again there will not be,
negative outcomes. However, if they perceive discipline as an
act of aggression, then there may be negative results.
Marjorie Gunnoe's scholarly and very thorough work underscores
the fact that there are no dangers in loving homes in which the
child knows that mom and dad are disciplining in a careful,
responsible, loving manner and purely out of a desire to shape
character.
It has been a privilege to speak to this motion. At this point
I again seek the unanimous consent of the House to have the
motion before us deemed adopted and passed.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
An hon. member: No.
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: Since no more members wish to speak and the
motion was not selected as a votable item, the hour provided for
consideration of Private Members' Business has now expired and
the item is dropped from the order paper.
Accordingly this House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10
a.m. pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 6.21 p.m.)