Mr. Paul Zed (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the government's response to 15 petitions.

* * *

[English]

CANADIAN MULTICULTURALISM ACT

Hon. Hedy Fry (Secretary of State (Multiculturalism)(Status of Women), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 32(2), I have the honour to table, in both official languages, copies of the annual report on the operation of the Canadian Multiculturalism Act for 1995-1996.

I will be making a statement shortly outlining my vision and the government's new direction for multiculturalism.

* * *

MULTICULTURALISM

Hon. Hedy Fry (Secretary of State (Multiculturalism)(Status of Women), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, millions of Canadians are living proof of this nation's commitment to offer opportunity to all of our citizens. It is the role of multiculturalism to ensure that all Canadians can participate fully and actively in the economic, social and political life of this country.

It is therefore a pleasant responsibility to place before Parliament the annual report of the operation of the Canadian Multiculturalism Act.

1996 was a milestone for multiculturalism in three ways. First, we commemorated the 25th anniversary of Canada becoming the first country in the world to embrace the concept of multiculturalism as a national policy.

[Translation]

That policy is an affirmation of Canadian values and vision, and is a guide for pragmatic vision. It is a guide for reaping the social and economic benefits offered by our cultural diversity.

It is the ability for one people to be formed out of diversity.

[English]

It is the ability to live together, sharing common and fundamental values that are inherently Canadian, yet at the same time it is also the ability to respect individuals and communities which have chosen to maintain their uniqueness that is also Canadian.

Second, 1996 was the year in which Canada revamped and renewed its multiculturalism program to make it more contemporary, more focused, more accountable and more open to partnership with all Canadians. The renewed program is targeted squarely at the objectives of advancing social justice, fostering Canadian identity and enhancing civic participation.

Without leadership and direction over the past 25 years and into the future, we would not have been able to build and maintain this open and welcoming society that is a model to the world. We will secure these goals by working in partnership across the federal government and in harmony with other levels of government, the private sector, community groups and Canadians from all walks of life.

Third, during this year the Government of Canada followed through on the Prime Minister's pledge to establish the Canadian Race Relations Foundation. Under the leadership of the Hon. Lincoln Alexander and a board of distinguished Canadians, the foundation will be a linchpin for the sharing of information and know-how in promoting even better race relations in Canada.

[Translation]

These milestones are markers of a country dedicated to fairness, They are also markers of a country determined to use the full range of its cultural diversity to tap new markets, build new trade, create new jobs, promote new tourism and marshal our competitive advantage.

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[English]

Team Canada works in part because we have citizens with knowledge of the different languages, cultures and marketplace of trading partners. It works in part because we are widely viewed as a society that strives to tap the talents of all Canadians regardless of their origins. In the eyes of the world Canada has become a model. As we have strived to live together with respect for differences, we have honed the skills of accommodation that has made us learn how to find a peaceful resolution to conflict.

The success of the new direction set for multiculturalism in 1996 can and will be open for review by Parliament in the years ahead. I welcome, and in fact encourage, the ongoing advice of all members of Parliament as we continue the work of ensuring that a noble Canadian idea provides opportunity for all Canadians and tangible benefits for our nation.

[Translation]

Mr. Osvaldo Nunez (Bourassa, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I listened closely to the speech made by the Secretary of State for Multiculturalism as she tabled her annual report of the operation of the Canadian Multiculturalism Act.

I am pleased that this important position is held by a woman from a visible minority. Her multiculturalism policy, however, is a complete failure.

(1010)

First of all, her government ignores the fact that there is a Quebec culture, that there are two founding peoples, two founding nations. She referred to tolerance as a basic value. But the fact is that, last May, a senior minister of this government suggested that I leave Canada and find another place to live because my views diverge from those of the government, because I dared criticize its immigration policy and because I am a sovereignist member from an ethnic community.

The secretary of state also spoke of compassion. But in her own riding of Vancouver Centre, there is a Salvadoran refugee by the name of Maria Barahona who has had to seek refuge in a church basement in 1995 and has been living there with her four children for more than a year.

Neither the secretary of state nor the minister of immigration has done a thing to remedy the situation. Racism is on the rise in Canada. But there is no word of any specific action, any action plan to combat the social scourge of terrorism. There are cutbacks everywhere, particularly in the services for which the Secretary of State for Multiculturalism is responsible.

Ethnic groups are complaining about not getting any subsidies any more. This government has stopped advertising in the ethnic media, and several papers were forced to close down for lack of subsidization and government ads. This is especially true in the case of Latin Americans. This newly established community needs the government's support to ensure its harmonious integration into the host society.

The unemployment rate among visible minorities is alarming. It is much higher than the Canadian average. This means there is an employment equity act that has not been enforced by the federal government. One of the target groups for positive action plans should be visible minorities.

There is also a need for providing intercultural education to this government's officials. Some newcomers to Canada complain about abusive or discriminatory behaviour on the part of federal officials, particularly citizenship and immigration officials.

In a nutshell, equality for all is far from having been achieved in Canada in the social, economic, cultural and political areas.

[English]

Mr. Ian McClelland (Edmonton Southwest, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I ask members to put themselves in the position of a boatload of German Jewish refugees in June 1939. They were turned away from our shores and ended up going back to Europe where many died, ending up in the crematoria. At about the same time Chinese people were prevented from coming to Canada. We acknowledge that our country has not had a particularly welcoming attitude to people of other colours, races and backgrounds.

If we are ever to be sure to never repeat the errors of the past, it is particularly important when discussing and when considering multiculturalism to remember the Canada we have today is one of which the vast majority of people are very proud. We have a deserved reputation around the world for being inviting and accommodating.

As we use this as an opportunity to consider what multiculturalism actually means to our country and its future, based on the notion of a multicultural country, it behoves us to bear in mind that it is the values we share in common as Canadians that are the foundation of our country of the future. And as a rule, all of us should live our lives as if we were members of a minority or were refugees from some other part of the world.

(1015)

Even today there are blemishes on our record. For instance, we now have a head tax on immigration, and while that may not be very much to some people, for some it is a great deal of money. The ability of a person to come to Canada based on their ability to buy their way in, even if it is only a bit, is something we should really look at and reconsider.

In Alberta we had, some time ago, a program of inclusion, to make the notion of multiculturalism one of inclusion of all people to celebrate it. The key that we had there was one heart, many colours. I have yet to hear any description of what multiculturalism

7747

is about, better than that, that Canada is a country of people from all over the world with one heart of many colours.

* * *

PETITIONS

NUCLEAR WEAPONS

Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this petition is signed by many people from my constituency who are calling on the House of Commons to ask the government to support the immediate initiation and conclusion by the year 2000 of an international convention which will set out a binding timetable for the abolition of all nuclear weapons.

HIGHWAY SYSTEM

Mr. Pat O'Brien (London-Middlesex, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 36, to present in the House today some seven petitions from my constituents of London-Middlesex and the surrounding area calling on Parliament to work closely with the provinces of Canada, in this case particularly Ontario, to upgrade the highway system of this province and of this country.

They note very much the need for such upgrading. They speak to the job creation potential of these programs. I am very pleased to support these petitions, noting that our infrastructure programs should address their concerns.

YOUNG OFFENDERS ACT

Mr. Ed Harper (Simcoe Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure pursuant to Standing Order 36 to present four petitions today from my riding of Simcoe Centre.

The first group of petitioners request that Parliament pass legislation to strengthen the Young Offenders Act, including publishing the names of young offenders, lowering the age of application and transferring serious young offenders to adult court.

CONSENT

Mr. Ed Harper (Simcoe Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the second petition concerns the age of consent laws. The petitioners ask that Parliament set the age of consent at 18 years to protect children from sexual exploitation and abuse.

JUSTICE

Mr. Ed Harper (Simcoe Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the third petition concerns violent offenders. The petitioners ask that Parliament enact two strikes legislation so that repeat offenders will serve life in prison with no chance of parole.

NATIONAL UNITY

Mr. Ed Harper (Simcoe Centre, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, the final petition concerns national unity. The petitioners ask that Parliament declare immediately that Canada is indivisible, except if the majority of Canadians agree otherwise in a national referendum or unless due to process of an amending formula in our Constitution.

HIGHWAY SYSTEM

Mr. Len Taylor (The Battlefords-Meadow Lake, NDP): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure today pursuant to Standing Order 36 to present a petition to the House of Commons.

The petition is signed by residents of my constituency, including residents of the town of Cut Knife, the city of North Battleford and towns of Wilkie, Unity, Speers, Cando, Chitek Lake, Meota, Jackfish Lake and other communities in my riding.

The petitioners draw to the attention of the House of Commons that 38 per cent of the national highway system is substandard, that Mexico and the United States are upgrading their national highway system and that the national highway policy study identify job creation, economic development, national unity, saving lives and avoiding injuries, lower congestion, lower vehicular operating costs and better international competitiveness as benefits of the proposed national highway program.

(1020 )

Therefore the petitioners call on Parliament to urge the federal government to join with provincial governments to make the national highway system upgrading possible.

HIGHWAY SYSTEM

Mr. Janko PeriG (Cambridge, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, today I have the privilege of presenting to the House petitions from concerned citizens of my riding of Cambridge and southern Ontario.

The petitioners wish to draw to the attention of the House that 38 per cent of the national highway system is substandard. Our NAFTA partners are currently upgrading their national highway systems. Investment in Canada's national highway system would create jobs, spur economic growth, contribute to national unity and save lives.

For these reasons the petitioners pray and request that the Parliament of Canada join with the provincial governments to make the upgrading of our national highway system a priority.

MARRIAGE

Mr. John Finlay (Oxford, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have four petitions to present today.

The first petition which is signed by 106 people requests that the House of Commons enact legislation to amend the existing legislation to define marriage as the voluntary union for life of one woman and one man to each other, to the exclusion of all others.

7748

GASOLINE TAX

Mr. John Finlay (Oxford, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the second petition is signed by 50 residents of my riding and requests that Parliament not increase the federal excise tax on gasoline in the next federal budget.

HIGHWAY SYSTEM

Mr. John Finlay (Oxford, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the last two petitions which contain 27 signatures each call upon Parliament to urge the federal government to join with provincial governments to make the national highway upgrading system position.

FISHERIES

Mr. Lawrence D. O'Brien (Labrador, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have two petitions to present. One is from Black Tickle, Labrador having to do with the emergency state of the economy.

Five years ago Black Tickle had nearly 100 per cent employment in the fisheries. Right now it is 6 per cent and the people of Labrador and the community of Black Tickle are calling on the Government of Canada and particularly the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to do something about the allocation of quotas so the fish plant may be reopened.

The second petition I wish to present is again to the department of fisheries having to do with the adjacency issue of fisheries, signed by hundreds of people of my riding from along the coast of Labrador.

The petitioners call on the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the Government of Canada to consider the adjacency issue and give them a fair and decent allocation of fish.

JUSTICE

Mr. Bill Gilmour (Comox-Alberni, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, I am pleased to present the following petition which comes from my riding of Comox-Alberni.

The petitioners ask that Parliament enact Bill C-205 which proposes to prohibit any criminal from profiting from the commission of a crime.

GENERIC DRUGS

Mrs. Sue Barnes (London West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to pursuant to Standing Order 36 to present a petition to Parliament from a group of senior citizens who are very concerned about the labelling practice in the marketing of generic drugs. They call on Parliament to regulate the practice of keeping generic drugs in the size, shape and colour which is similar to that of the brand name equivalent. They are concerned about the safety of consumers on this issue, especially senior citizens.

[Translation]

TAX ON GASOLINE

Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds-Dollard, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, I have the honour to table a petition signed by people from my riding and surrounding areas.

The petitioners are asking Parliament not to increase the federal excise tax on gasoline in the next federal budget.

[English]

NATIONAL UNITY

Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have a number of petitioners to present.

The first one concerns Canadian unity. The petitioners pray that the Prime Minister and Parliament will declare and confirm immediately that Canada is indivisible and that the boundaries of Canada, its provinces, territories and territorial waters, may be modified only by a free vote of all Canadian citizens as guaranteed in the charter of rights and freedoms. This petition comes from Montreal, Quebec.

HUMAN RIGHTS

Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the second petition is from Brantford, Ontario.

The petitioners would like to bring to the attention of the House that homosexuals already have the rights, excluding sexual orientation, from the human rights act. It is not a question of equality. All Canadians have the same legal protection and basic rights under existing laws.

Therefore the petitioners pray that the term sexual orientation not be included in the human rights act.

EMERGENCY PERSONNEL

Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the next petition is from Chambly, Quebec.

(1025 )

The petitioners pray and call on Parliament to establish a fund known as a public safety officers compensation fund for the benefit of families of safety officers killed in the line of duty.

TAXATION

Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the next petition concerning the taxation of families comes from Burlington, Ontario.

The petitioners pray and call on Parliament to pursue initiatives to assist families that decide to provide care in the home for preschool children, the chronically ill, the aged and the disabled.

7749

ALCOHOL CONSUMPTION

Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the final petition is from Dingwall, Nova Scotia. This petition has to do with health warning labels on containers of alcoholic beverages.

The petitioners humbly pray and call upon Parliament to mandate the labelling of alcoholic products to warn pregnant women and others of certain dangers associated with the consumption of alcoholic beverages.

* * *

QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER

Mr. Paul Zed (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I ask that all questions be allowed to stand.

The Deputy Speaker: Is that agreed?

Some hon. members: Agreed.

The Deputy Speaker: I wish to inform the House that because of the ministerial statement, Government Orders will be extended by 11 minutes.

_____________________________________________

7749

GOVERNMENT ORDERS

[Translation]

EXCISE TAX ACT

The House resumed from February 5, 1997, consideration of Bill C-70, an act to amend the Excise Tax Act, the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act, the Income Tax Act, the Debt Servicing and Reduction Account Act and related Acts, as reported (with amendments) from the committee, and of motions in Group No. 2.

Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot, BQ) moved:

Motion No. 68

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 209.

Motion No. 69

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 210.

Motion No. 70

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 211.

Motion No. 71

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 212.

Motion No. 72

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 213.

Motion No. 73

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 214.

Motion No. 74

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 215.

Motion No. 75

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 216.

Motion No. 76

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 217.

Motion No. 77

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 218.

Motion No. 78

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 219.

Motion No. 79

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 220.

Motion No. 80

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 221.

Motion No. 81

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 222.

Motion No. 82

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 223.

Motion No. 83

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 224.

Motion No. 84

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 225.

Motion No. 85

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 226.

Motion No. 86

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 227.

(1030)

He said: Mr. Speaker, could we ask the pages, as we did yesterday, to sit while the motions are being read? You, Mr. Speaker, are used to standing up.

The Deputy Speaker: This is an excellent idea. I thank the hon. member.

Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot, BQ) moved:

Motion No. 87

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 228.

Motion No. 88

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 229.

Motion No. 89

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 230.

Motion No. 90

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 231.

Motion No. 91

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 232.

Motion No. 92

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 233.

Motion No. 93

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 234.

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Motion No. 94

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 235.

Motion No. 95

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 236.

Motion No. 96

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 237.

Motion No. 97

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 238.

Motion No. 98

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 239.

Motion No. 99

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 240.

Motion No. 100

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 241.

Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (for the Minister of Finance) moved:

Motion No. 101

That Bill C-70, in Clause 241, be amended by

(a) replacing, in the English version, lines 12 to 14 on page 284 with the following:

``province means

(a) October 23, 1996 in the case of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick or Newfoundland; and

(b) February 10, 1997 in the case of the Nova Scotia offshore area or the Newfoundland offshore area.''

(b) replacing, in the French version, lines 14 and 15 on page 284 with the following:

``se, du Nouveau-Brunswick, Terre-Neuve, de la zone extracôtière de la Nouvelle-Écosse et de la zone extracôtière de Terre-Neuve.''

(c) replacing, in the French version, lines 16 to 19 on page 284 with the following:

``«date de mise en oeuvre anticipée»

a) Le 1er février 1997 dans le cas de la Nouvelle-Écosse, du Nouveau-Brunswick et de Terre-Neuve;

b) le 10 février 1997 dans le cas de la zone extracôtière de la Nouvelle-Écosse et de la zone extracôtière de Terre-Neuve.''

(d) replacing, in the English version, lines 17 and 18 on page 284 with the following:

``Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Newfoundland, the Nova Scotia offshore area or the Newfoundland offshore area.''

(e) replacing, in the French version, lines 20 to 22 on page 284 with the following:

``«date de publication»

a) Le 23 octobre 1996 dans le cas de la Nouvelle-Écosse, du Nouveau-Brunswick et de Terre-Neuve;

b) le 10 février 1997 dans le cas de la zone extracôtière de la Nouvelle-Écosse et de la zone extracôtière de Terre-Neuve.''

(f) replacing, in the English version, lines 20 to 22 on page 284 with the following:

``participating province means

(a) February 1, 1997 in the case of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick or Newfoundland; and

(b) February 10, 1997 in the case of the Nova Scotia offshore area or the Newfoundland offshore area.''

(1035)

Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot, BQ) moved:

Motion No. 102

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 242.

Motion No. 103

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 243.

Motion No. 104

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 244.

Motion No. 105

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 245.

Motion No. 106

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 246.

Motion No. 107

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 247.

Motion No. 108

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 248.

Motion No. 109

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 249.

[English]

Mr. Solberg: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Yesterday we indicated that we hoped to wring a concession out of the government that if it would not move time allocation we would agree to go along with the request not to read this entire set of amendments into the record. The government did not give us that assurance which is unfortunate because it has moved time allocation dozens of times in this House.

Having said that, we feel it is not fair to the Speaker or to the people of the country who are waiting to hear the debate on this bill. If members on the other side and in the Bloc would go along with it, we would be happy to give our concurrence to allow the Speaker to dispense with the reading of the amendments.

[Translation]

Mr. Loubier: Mr. Speaker, the Bloc Quebecois supports the proposal made by the Reform Party member.

[English]

Mr. Campbell: Mr. Speaker, as much as we are enjoying the very fine job you are doing in reading these amendments, it is putting a strain on you. I regret that as a result of the wishes of the other parties opposite, that is what we had to do last night and this morning, riveting television though it may be. I am sure we would also be pleased to begin the debate on this group.

7751

May I ask my hon. colleagues opposite, does this mean we would proceed to debating the motions in this group at this time? To clarify, my understanding is that we would take all the motions in this group as having been read and proceed to the debate.

(1040)

[Translation]

Mr. Loubier: Mr. Speaker, the proposal made by the Reform Party member is quite clear. The government was asked, as regards the GST, an issue which is not at all to its credit, not to invoke closure on Bill C-70 either today or later.

Mr. Speaker, we have nothing against you. We like you, but as long as the government does not guarantee that it will not gag us, each motion will have to be read.

Liberal members across the floor must stop displaying this holier-than-thou attitude. After all, they are the ones to blame for the many times closure was imposed on us over the last three and a half years. This is their way of doing things and it is totally undemocratic.

[English]

The Deputy Speaker: I might ask, colleagues, is it also implied in what has been said that we are going to have the questions deemed to be put or not deemed to be put on the motions in this particular group?

Mr. Campbell: Mr. Speaker, I would like to clarify it. I am afraid the hon. member opposite has now changed what I understood the member of the third party to have suggested. He suggested that in light of the inconvenience of your having to read through all of these amendments, we could take them as having been read. I am saying on behalf of the government that we would be agreeable with that and that is all I am saying.

[Translation]

The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to deem all the motions in this group to have been read?

Some hon. members: No.

The Deputy Speaker: Then we must carry on.

Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot, BQ) moved:

Motion No. 110

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 250.

Motion No. 111

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 251.

Motion No. 112

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 252.

Motion No. 113

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 253.

He said: Mr. Speaker, since we are keen to get on with the very important debate that we must and are permitted to have in this House regarding the GST scandal and this government, we will go along with the government's arguments. We agree that these motions are deemed to have been read so that we can debate the motions in Group No. 2 dealing with the malfunctioning of this government and the political agreement with the maritimes to harmonize the GST, which is costing us $1 billion.

Canadians and Quebecers are entitled to have the full picture on this government's bad management and its unacceptable squandering of taxpayers' money.

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to deem the motions in this group to have been read and begin debate?

Some hon. members: Agreed.

[English]

Mr. Campbell: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I wonder if in this renewed spirit of co-operation I might also ask that all votes could be deemed to have been taken as recorded divisions and put over instead of done individually.

[Translation]

Mr. Loubier: Mr. Speaker, could my hon. colleague on the government side repeat his proposal? I did not quite catch it.

[English]

The Deputy Speaker: Perhaps the hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance could repeat what he just said. His colleague did not catch everything he said.

(1045 )

Mr. Kilger: Mr. Speaker, let me see if I can be of assistance to my colleagues.

I believe the parliamentary secretary is asking the House to consider, over and above its co-operation as to the motions having been read, that if votes are requested that they would be deemed deferred as opposed to having to make the request each and every time with the yeas and the nays and so on. I would ask the Chair, can that be done?

[Translation]

Mr. Loubier: Mr. Speaker, it is much clearer when the government whip tells us. Yes, we agree to have the divisions on these motions deemed to have been deferred.

[English]

The Deputy Speaker: Colleagues, I think I get the sense of the House that all of the motions in this grouping will be deemed to have been moved, seconded and read. If a division is demanded it will be deemed deferred. Is that agreeable?

7752

Some hon. members: Agreed.

Mr. Campbell: Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank you and the hon. chief government whip for clarifying what I was trying to say. Given how sensitive everyone is in the House these days, I want to tell the hon. member opposite that I take no offence at what he said a few moments ago about my earlier attempt to explain what the government wanted to achieve.

[Translation]

Mr. Loubier: Mr. Speaker, I did not in any way wish to insult my Liberal colleague. If I did not understand what he said, it was because I had not put on my earphones to listen to the interpretation.

The Deputy Speaker: Okay.

Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot, BQ) moved:

Motion No. 114

That Bill C-70 be amended by adding after line 45 on page 336 the following:

``253.1 (1) Schedule VI of the Act is amended by adding the following after Part VII:

Part VII.1
PRINTED BOOKS, AUDIO RECORDINGS OF PRINTED BOOKS AND VERSIONS OF SCRIPTURES OF ANY RELIGION

1. In this Part, ``printed book'' does not include anything that is or the main component of which is

(a) a newspaper;

(b) a magazine or periodical acquired otherwise than by way of subscription;

(c) a magazine or periodical in which the printed space devoted to advertising is more than 5 per cent of the total printed space;

(d) a brochure or pamphlet;

(e) a sales catalogue, a price list or advertising material;

(f) a warranty booklet or an owner's manual;

(g) a book designed primarily for writing on;

(h) a colouring book or a book designed primarily for drawing on or affixing thereto, or inserting therein, items such as clippings, pictures, coins, stamps or stickers;

(i) a cut-out book or a press-out book;

(j) a program relating to an event or performance;

(k) an agenda, calendar, syllabus or timetable;

(l) a directory, an assemblage of charts or an assemblage of street or road maps, but not including

(i) a guidebook, or

(ii) an atlas that consists in whole or in part of maps, other than street or road maps;

(m) a rate book;

(n) an assemblage of blueprints, patterns or stencils;

(o) prescribed property; or

(p) an assemblage or collection of, or any item similar to, items included in any of paragraphs (a) to (o).

2. The supply of a printed book or an update of such a book.

3. The supply of an audio recording all or substantially all of which is a spoken recording of a printed book.

4. The supply of a bound or unbound printed version of scripture of any religion.

(2) Subsection (1) comes into force on April 1, 1997.''

Motion No. 115

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 254.

Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (on behalf of the Minister of Finance) moved:

Motion No. 116

That Bill C-70, in Clause 254, be amended by adding after line 5 on page 337 the following:

``4. Nova Scotia offshore area 8 percent

5. Newfoundland offshore area 8 percent''

Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot, BQ) moved:

Motion No. 117

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 255.

The Speaker: We now proceed to debate on the motions in Group No. 2.

Mr. Loubier: Mr. Speaker, this is a bill which, according to the motions tabled, deals with the GST harmonization process in three Maritime provinces.

Where is the harmonization? What do they mean by harmonization? There is no harmonization in this bill, in this agreement with the Maritimes. It is a local agreement.

When it comes to harmony, we heard from witnesses in the finance committee recently that they are far from having harmony in the three Maritime provinces. This is particularly true for the businessmen who are, at the present time, furious with the government because of one of the so-called harmonization clauses, which would include in the product price the 15 per cent tax rate decreed by the government, which replaces the GST in these three provinces and the numerous sales taxes that were in place until now.

Imagine the terrible headache this represents for businesses which distribute their products to other Canadian provinces, or have branches in those provinces. It is already difficult for a business to manage a price structure when a number of different products are involved, so imagine managing not one price structure but two, with all that this involves in the way of computer programs, stock management plans and so on.

Businessmen in these three provinces have asked the government to review this section of its bill in order not to include the new tax in the price, because they no longer know which side is up. This is the first point in any discussion of harmonization: that there is no harmonization.

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Second, when we speak of harmonization, we must speak of true harmonization. In 1991, Quebec harmonized its sales tax with the federal GST. Quebec even collects the GST on behalf of the federal government.

Quebec has never demanded, nor has it ever received, compensation for losses or costs incurred because of this harmonization. The three Maritime provinces have come to the aid of the Minister of Finance on the GST, accepting the so-called harmonization, which is supposed to serve as a model for all of Canada.

(1050)

However, this gesture costs $1 billion or thereabouts, $961 million, if I remember correctly, in compensation. This is nearly $1 billion our generous Minister of Finance paid, using our money, the money of taxpayers who are listening, to compensate the maritimes as part of a purely political agreement which does nothing to deal with the problem of the GST and especially not the problems Canadian Liberals have with the GST.

The Prime Minister, his Minister of Finance and the Deputy Prime Minister made a solemn commitment in 1993, in 1992 even before the election campaign and as far back as 1989, when the GST was coming on stream, to scrap this hated tax. That is how the Liberals referred to the GST. They ranted and raved. They said:

[English]

``We will strike the GST''.

[Translation]

Those are the words of the Prime Minister. The Deputy Prime Minister said: ``We hate this tax and we will scrap it''. They have not scrapped it, and now they want to harmonize it. It will costs us $1 billion for a harmonization that in fact does not exist and which is not what the Canadian public understood those guys opposite would do.

They served us up a pack of lies, and they have been doing that for three and a half years. A few days ago I was listening to the Premier of New Brunswick, Frank McKenna. I must admit I was shocked, upset and even insulted by the way he behaved on his trip to Asia with Team Canada. I think it is inconscionable that on his Asian trip, the Premier of New Brunswick, instead of recruiting local companies or attracting potential customers, governments and big corporations, was trying to recruit companies from Quebec and get them to move to New Brunswick.

Do you know what Mr. McKenna's message is when he does this kind of recruiting, when he tries to steal from his neighbour on a trip intended as an opportunity to find new international markets and not to steal companies from Quebec? Do you know what he told those companies? He told them what he told companies from Ontario: ``If you move to our province, for the next two or three years, your corporate tax burden will be reduced by $400 million''. So where will those $400 million come from?

What a coincidence: it just happens to be New Brunswick's share of the compensation paid by the federal government for harmonizing the provincial sales tax with the GST.

What this means, and this is absolutely crazy and unfair to boot, is that federal money, one quarter of which comes out of the pockets of Quebecers, is used to finance a corporate raider, Mr. McKenna, so he can attract Quebec companies and in the process transfer Quebec jobs to New Brunswick. That is the spirit of federalism. Amazing. I never saw anything like it.

New Brunswick is no longer the poor little province from the maritimes. New Brunswick is building itself an industrial force in the high tech sector with our money and, what is more, its premier had the gall in Asia to raid our firms in an effort to attract them to New Brunswick. This is unacceptable and it is an indirect effect of a supposed political harmonization of sales taxes in the maritimes that our show off Minister of Finance presented as a revelation he received from somewhere or other to get out of the mess the government was in with the GST.

This minister, who claims to be a strong federalist and who would thus normally treat all the provinces in Canada the same way and co-operate with them, ends up subsidizing one province to dip into another, its neighbour, and draw business away. It makes no sense. This kind of behaviour is unacceptable.

(1055)

If the approach used in the case of the famous compensation of nearly $1 billion, which comes out of our pockets to buy three maritime provinces in the GST-sales tax harmonization process, were applied to what Quebec did in 1991, the federal government ought to pay Quebec $2 billion.

If it insists on paying this compensation of nearly $1 billion, it should pay the Quebec government $2 billion. ``Out of the question'', say government representatives, ``have you lost your marbles?'' We have not lost our marbles. If we used the calculations and the logic the Minister of Finance put forward in signing the agreement with the maritime provinces, then, if the maritime provinces are entitled to nearly $1 billion, Quebec is entitled to nearly $2 billion for the harmonization it has done since 1991. This is in addition to the other bills we have often sent the government, but this one, I must admit, is particularly hard to take.

In Quebec in 1991, we were good boys and girls. We decided we were going to make things easy for our businesses and set an example as well by harmonizing and thus lead a movement in the other provinces of Canada toward a harmonized system to facilitate interprovincial trade. Billions are involved. Trade between Ontario and Quebec in particular represents $36 billion. Our reward for this vision is nothing. We are being treated as if we are worth less than

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nothing. The maritimes get $1 billion. We are entitled to $2 billion, instead we are sent packing as if our request were unwarranted.

So, clearly, in the motions in Group No. 2 on harmonization, we totally disagree with the unreasonable, unfair and unacceptable scheme in the three maritime provinces.

[English]

The Deputy Speaker: Normally the members who are opposed to the motion explain why and then the parliamentary secretary sums up why the government agrees or disagrees. It is the minister who has moved the motions and accordingly I will go to the Parliamentary Secretary for the Minister of Finance.

Mr. Barry Campbell (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am under your guidance. When we group motions like this, it is a little bit confusing for us. The problem arises because within the grouping are some motions put forward by the government and some by the opposition. I would propose to speak now in favour of the motions we have put forward and in that same 10 minute allotment in opposition to some of the others, followed by my colleague opposite.

There are three things I want to say. First is in response to what the hon. Bloc Quebecois member has said with respect to adjustment assistance. As he well knows, there is no basis for the claim that Quebec would qualify for adjustment assistance based on the formula that is being applied for that assistance to the maritimes. Quebec simply did not incur any loss of sales tax revenue as a result of harmonizing and that is just a fact of life. The formula requires adjustment assistance if a province loses approximately 5 per cent in sales tax revenue in moving to adjustment. In fact Quebec made money. That is the way it was; there is no justification for adjustment assistance.

Second is with respect to harmonization.

[Translation]

Members of the Bloc oppose harmonization. This is very strange, because there is harmonization in Quebec. Is it because Quebecers want to keep the benefits and advantages of harmonization for themselves, for their businesses and their consumers?

[English]

There is no question that harmonization provides a comparative advantage. Provinces that are harmonizing will have a more efficient business sector and cheaper prices for consumers than ones that are not. I detect underlying this intense opposition to harmonization, striking the word throughout the bill as the opposition proposes, is an attempt to deny the benefits of harmonization to provinces that live right next door to Quebec and to preserve those advantages for Quebec. I hope I am not right, but I suspect that may underlie some of the opposition.

(1100)

The government motions to amend clauses 150, 160, 198, 203, 204, 241 and 254 are related. They would ensure that the provincial component of the HST would apply to Nova Scotia and Newfoundland offshore areas in relation to activities to which the Canada-Newfoundland-Atlantic accord implementation act and the Canada-Nova Scotia offshore petroleum resources accord implementation act apply.

This treatment would be consistent with the terms of the existing offshore petroleum resources accord, Canada-Nova Scotia and the Canada-Newfoundland-Atlantic accord and the related implementation act under which taxes equivalent to retail sales taxes in Nova Scotia and Newfoundland currently apply.

Further, among the motions, subclause 150(6) of Bill C-70 enacts a new definition of basic tax content for purposes of part IX of the Excise Tax Act.

The concept of basic tax content is principally used to determine the amount of additional input tax credits that a registrant may claim when the registrant increases the extent to which capital property is used in commercial activities and the amount of input tax credits that are recaptured when the use of the capital property and commercial activities are reduced.

Generally, the basic tax content of the property is the tax that was payable on the acquisition after deducting rebates on certain other amounts that the purchaser was entitled to recover and after taking into account depreciation of the property.

The motion proposes to include in the calculation of a basic tax content a tax that would have been payable but for the fact that the purchaser acquired the property for use exclusively in commercial activities. This change will ensure that the correct result is obtained in determining the amount to be remitted or recaptured if there is a subsequent change in the use of the property.

Government Motion No. 63 proposes to amend clause 204 of Bill C-70, which adds new section 220.06 to the Excise Tax Act. This section ensures that goods delivered to a purchaser in a participating province do not escape the 8 per cent component of the HST when they are supplied by an unregistered, non-resident person who has not paid the tax on bringing the goods into Canada or into the province.

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In this case, as a result of section 220.06, the recipient could be assessed a tax. The proposed amendments remove the references in the section to a ``specified motor vehicle'' that is required to be registered in a participating province. These references are inappropriate because a special regime is intended to apply to sales of registerable motor vehicles.

Where a registerable motor vehicle is sold by a non-registrant, in circumstances in which the 7 per cent GST does not apply, as in the case covered by section 220.06, neither should the 8 per cent component apply. Instead, a special 15 per cent provincial levy will apply to the vehicle which will be payable to provincial licensing authorities when the vehicle is registered in the province.

Therefore, section 220.06 should not apply at all to sales by non-registrants of motor vehicles that are required to be registered in a participating province. The amendments also clarify when the tax under section 220.06 becomes payable.

In conclusion, I apologize for that bit of reading into the record but it is required in order to adequately explain some technical amendments to the act.

I would only add that with respect to motor vehicles, yesterday we heard some suggestion of an unlevel playing field between people who sell vehicles privately and people who purchase used vehicles from dealers.

If members opposite understood the impact of the harmonization legislation, they would understand that in participating provinces there will be a level playing field because registrants' provinces, when purchasers register a vehicle, will be paying all sales taxes applicable. That will alleviate a situation that prevails and will continue to prevail in provinces that are declining to harmonize at this time.

It is a dramatic improvement in those provinces that are harmonizing.

(1105 )

Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak once again to Bill C-70, in particular to this group of motions.

There seems to be a common theme not only in how the bill came into being, but in the whole process that surrounds Bill C-70. It really explains why people are so concerned about the harmonization legislation. The common theme is a general lack of accountability, a lack of being able to hold the government accountable, and a series of gaps that have made the GST a real tar baby in terms of governments being able to deal with it and not draw all kinds of flack.

Let me start by going back a bit in time. I want to follow up on comments that were made by members of the Bloc Quebecois. First, we need to remember how this legislation came about in the first place. In 1993 during the election campaign the Prime Minister and the current Deputy Prime Minister said that under a Liberal government the GST would be gone, it would be eliminated. Of course, that is not the case.

Mr. Collins: I did not say that.

Mr. Solberg: The hon. member across the way says he did not say that. The Prime Minister in a town hall meeting denied that he said it too. ``I did not say that. Show me where I said it''. Unfortunately, for him the public record is very clear because minutes later the CBC showed clips of the Prime Minister saying on national television: ``We will kill it. We will scrap it''. A clip was shown of him in a radio station during the election campaign saying that the GST would be gone.

I remember very well how the Prime Minister tried to dress down the young woman from Montreal for having the audacity to try and hold him accountable. What a terrible thing to do. That has become a common theme. I will explain a little more about that in just a moment.

During the months that followed the election, members of the government tried to downplay their election promise. They tried to say that what they really said was they would replace the GST. However, they knew that statement was not resonating very well with the public. The opposition was making yards here in the House when we kept pointing out that the government made a promise and it was not being fulfilled.

Finally, the Deputy Prime Minister conducted a poll to see if she could resign and still get re-elected in Hamilton East. She did, indeed, conduct the poll at great expense to the taxpayers. Then a byelection was held that cost a lot of money and, of course, she was subsequently re-elected.

Canadians were expecting more. When members say they are going to resign, it does not mean they are going to resign and run again right away. Nevertheless, that points once again to a lack of accountability in the House of Commons. People want members of Parliament to be responsible for what they say.

A little further along we get to the point where we are having discussions about the harmonized sales tax because the government said: ``To get us out of this, we are going to give Atlantic Canada $1 billion''. That is what it did. Atlantic Canada had no interest in a harmonized sales tax at all until the $1 billion was slapped down on the table. To get the government out of this promise it slapped down the $1 billion and Atlantic Liberal premiers said: ``Maybe we are interested after all''. Just show people the colour of money and it is amazing what they will do.

We had that incident. What followed? Ultimately legislation came down and hearings were held. Were hearings held in Atlantic Canada where this was going to affect people? Reform members moved an amendment during the hearings and Liberal MPs said: ``We are not going to extend the hearings. We are not going to have hearings in Atlantic Canada,'' despite the hue and cry from people

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in Atlantic Canada who were saying there were all kinds of flaws with the bill.

We heard dozens of witnesses who said: ``We have big problems with tax in pricing and big problems with many components of the bill''. The fact that people had many problems with the HST and the fact that the government acknowledged there were problems with it and tried to make some changes along the way, points out that Atlantic Canadian MPs were not listening to the people of Atlantic Canada.

(1110)

Why were the people of Atlantic Canada not allowed to have hearings in Atlantic Canada? This is one of the most fundamental tax changes in the history of Atlantic Canada. Certainly it is taxation without consultation. I would argue it is taxation without representation.

Business group after business group, all kinds of people representing provincial jurisdictions, came before the finance committee and said: ``Here is a problem''. If Liberal MPs in Atlantic Canada had been representing their constituents that would have never happened because the Liberal MPs would have gone to the finance minister and told him that people have raised these concerns and they should be dealt with.

Mr. Speaker, do you know what happened? They did not do that. They were mute. That is bad enough, but they allowed businesses to close in Atlantic Canada because of this legislation. They said nothing and people in Atlantic Canada lost their jobs. They lost their livelihood.

Debate is ongoing in this country about child poverty. The children in the homes of the people who have lost their jobs already or who probably will, according to business people who appeared before the committee, are going to be in a situation where their parents do not have an income. I would argue that is one of the biggest reasons why we have child poverty. In this case the government is actively encouraging unemployment by not being sensible about the tax in pricing component of this bill. The Liberal MPs in Atlantic Canada have done a horrible job of representing their constituents.

Where were they when all the negative aspects of this bill came forward? People from around the country were forced to come to Ottawa to make their case. That was the job of the Liberal MPs but they were silent. They were mute. Some Atlantic Canadian MPs are cabinet ministers. They sit around the cabinet table. They did nothing: the fisheries minister, the defence minister. Many of them sit around the cabinet table and they were absolutely silent.

Not only is that regrettable but in a modern democracy that is unforgivable. In a modern democracy when people are expected to make very difficult decisions every day in their lives, those same people certainly have the ability to be involved in the debate about the future of their tax system, something that is a fundamental part of everybody's economic well-being. I want to make a strong argument that the Liberal government has completely failed the people of Atlantic Canada in giving them the type of representation that all Canadians deserve.

I have one final point because my time is running short. The government led physicians and the providers of private ambulance services to believe that it was truly interested in restoring tax fairness in the taxation system. It led them to believe that perhaps under this legislation it would amend the act so that physicians and providers of health care would be given equal treatment under the taxation system with many others.

The problem is that physicians and private ambulance services are not allowed to pass on GST costs like other small business people are. Therefore, they have to bear those costs themselves. For doctors it amounts to something like $1,500 per year per physician.

I heard the finance minister yesterday say that he is very concerned about tax fairness and how the government has closed this loophole and that loophole. Is it not interesting that the government is only concerned about tax fairness when it means more money for the government, when it means taking more money out of people's pockets? But when it comes to treating people equally and perhaps having to give a little money back, it does not want to hear about it. Tax fairness? That is not tax fairness. Tax fairness is only when we take money away, and I think that is wrong.

(1115)

I make the point that again that the government has an obligation to treat everybody equally under the tax code, including physicians and private ambulance services.

Mr. Len Taylor (The Battlefords-Meadow Lake, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity today to say a few words on the report stage motions in Group No. 2 regarding some aspects of Bill C-70.

Bill C-70 is essentially legislation that gives the government the opportunity to enter into agreements with Atlantic provinces to harmonize the hated goods and services tax with the provincial sales taxes in the provinces of Newfoundland, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. It is interesting to note that the province of Prince Edward Island is absent from that list. Prince Edward Island has just completed a provincial election. Its government changed hands and a new government is now in place.

There have been a couple of elections in Atlantic Canada since this harmonization deal was proposed. The results are certainly interesting to look at. The federal Liberal government should pay some attention to the results of those elections. I speak of the Prince Edward Island election and the provincial byelection in the constituency of Halifax Fairview.

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Both election campaigns had tax fairness and harmonization as a key component. If the Liberals look at the results of those two elections they will see that they have a lot more responsibility yet to give to the people they have been elected to represent. With the government changing hands after the Prince Edward Island election, the former Liberal government was removed and a new Conservative government was put in place.

New Democrats are very proud that for the first time in the history of the province of Prince Edward Island, a New Democrat was elected to that provincial chamber; not only a New Democrat but the leader of the provincial New Democratic Party, Dr. Herb Dickieson, a medical physician, a practitioner who campaigned very strongly not only on taxation matters and representation but on health care as well. There is certainly a message this government should be taking from these results.

More important, in the province of Nova Scotia the new leader of the federal New Democratic Party, Alexa McDonough, served her constituents well in the provincial legislature for 14 years. She had to resign that seat in order to take the position as leader of the federal New Democratic Party, and we hope very soon to have her joining us here in the House of Commons so she can bring the views of Nova Scotian New Democrats and of all Canadians to this Chamber.

When we look at the election that replaced Alexa McDonough in Halifax Fairview, the Liberal government in the province of Nova Scotia said prior to that byelection that when the byelection was called it would put its all into it, that it would campaign on its record, that it would campaign on taxation, on how it was dealing with harmonizing the provincial tax with the federal GST. The people of Halifax responded very clearly to the challenge of the premier of Nova Scotia, a challenge that said ``our record on taxation is on the line''. Not only did the government get defeated in that byelection, but a New Democrat who campaigned on tax fairness was elected in that byelection with 65 per cent of the vote.

Everyone in Canada seems to think that New Democrats are western based, that the New Democratic Party is a party that defends western interests via small protest votes in the House of Commons. But 65 per cent of the people of Halifax Fairview said to the Government of Nova Scotia and to the Liberal members of Parliament in this House that this harmonization deal is wrong, they do not buy it, they do not accept it and they want a New Democrat representing their interests, giving their comments to government in this House of Commons. Those two elections in Atlantic Canada certainly indicate why it is necessary that more New Democrats are elected in the next federal election to this House of Commons, more New Democrats who speak clearly on behalf of Canadian interests, the middle class and working Canadians right across this country from coast to coast.

(1120)

We are looking at a harmonization deal in Atlantic Canada and that is why I raise those two issues here in the Chamber today. There are other issues right across Canada that could come about as a result of the acceptance of this harmonization deal for the three Atlantic provinces that are signing on. All Canadians have a responsibility to examine this deal, check out this legislation and see what is happening in the Atlantic provinces so as to avoid similar things happening in the rest of Canada.

Although this is called harmonization there is very little harmony in the way in which this legislation is being implemented or the way in which the idea is being accepted by people in Atlantic Canada. The consumers, retailers, interest groups, the clergy and others have not found much harmony in the way in which they respond to this legislation.

I think this is recognized in the fact that the name has changed several times during this process as well. You were in this House, Mr. Speaker, when the hated goods and services tax was brought in by the previous government. The GST was considered by a lot of Canadians, there was great turmoil in this House of Commons and elsewhere, and as a result of that turmoil we have a country that is divided over sales tax and the implementation of sales tax regimes.

Prior to the introduction of the goods and services tax, retail taxes were primarily the prerogative of provincial governments. Yes, there was a manufacturers sales tax levelled for the federal government at the wholesale level, the manufacturers level. But the retail prerogative was primarily the responsibility of provincial governments.

Provincial governments used that prerogative to establish social policy within the provinces as well as using the taxes as a source of revenue. Many provinces did not tax books. Virtually no province in this country taxed labour costs. No province wanted to tax children's clothing or food items. With the introduction of the goods and services tax there was a tax applied to some of those matters that the provinces had chosen not to tax in the interests of the consumers and the residents of those provinces. I forgot to mention home heating fuel and even the costs of funerals which many of our provinces decided should not be taxed.

As we move into the harmonization of the GST we are seeing that the provinces lose that prerogative to use tax policy for social purposes and to exempt certain income levels of people from retail taxation and to exempt certain classes of items from retail taxation. The GST and now the harmonization system has removed that.

It was originally called the manufacturers sales tax, MST. With the Conservative government it became the GST, the goods and services tax. The government in changing the system and wanting to blend it with the provincial sales taxes began calling it the blended sales tax, BST. It did not like the sound of BST so now the harmonized tax is called the HST. For those who like to think about these things remember the words of Alexa McDonough in a speech

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recently. She said with regard to this new BS tax, now the HST tax ``what have they got against horses?'' I think this is a very interesting situation that we have happening in this country. While there are a lot of things to be said on these individual motions and on the bill itself, I am sure I will have other things to say on the next round of motions.

(1125)

I hope to be able to put a few additional comments with respect to the motions and the harmonization deal on the record later in the day.

[Translation]

Mr. Osvaldo Nunez (Bourassa, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak at report stage of Bill C-70, an act to amend the Excise Tax Act, the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act, the Income Tax Act, the Debt Servicing and Reduction Account Act and related Acts.

This bill is a collection of various amendments to the GST, which will become the HST, or the harmonized sales tax. Let me tell you right now that this tax is very unpopular in my riding of Bourassa, in Montreal North, especially among business people. I must add that I support the motions put forward by the member for Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot, which are included in Group No. 2.

This Liberal government is highly embarrassed by the broken promise of the Prime Minister and the Minister of Canadian Heritage to abolish, scrap, and kill the GST. As we all know, the member for York South-Weston even left the Liberal Party over this broken promise among other things.

The Liberals are bent on reaching an agreement with the maritime provinces for harmonizing this tax, which will cost Quebecers and Canadians nearly one million dollars. Moreover, the government intends to ram this legislation through, which undermines the quality of democratic life in Canada.

By the way, the Liberals allowed only three days of public hearings on this crucial, essential, very important bill. The opposition asked that the consultations be extended, but their request was rejected by the Liberal majority on the Standing Committee on Finance. The government wants to put an end right now to this embarrassing issue of the GST, even though Bill C-70 is a very bad bill.

During the 1993 election campaign, the Prime Minister kept repeating: ``We will scrap the GST. Nous allons éliminer la TPS''. Later, on May 2, 1994, he said: ``We hate this tax and we are going to eliminate it''. This broken promise will be very costly for the Liberal Party of Canada in the next election.

In a minority report dating back to November 1989, Liberals, when they were the opposition, stated: ``The Liberal members of the finance committee maintain that the goods and services tax proposed by the Tory government is bad and that no ``repair job'' of any kind will make it fair for taxpayers''. What the Liberals are doing now with Bill C-70 is nothing but a repair job, a cosmetic make-over.

GST remains as it is, at the same rate, whereas the provincial tax is the one doing the harmonizing. There can be no sales tax reform without a reform of personal and corporate income taxes nor without the involvement of other levels of government. Canada has to undertake a tax reform encompassing every form of taxation at all levels of government.

Like the Bloc Quebecois, I demand for Quebec a $2 billion compensation for having harmonized the QST with the GST. It is unacceptable that the federal compensation formula should help Atlantic provinces compete fiercely with Quebec in the quest for new investments. When I see in Quebec newspapers ads by maritime provinces seeking to lure away Quebec businesses, to me thats provocation.

(1130)

The $400 million federal compensation paid to New Brunswick will be used to finance the income tax reductions announced in December by the finance minister of that province. I condemn the raiding campaign launched by Premier McKenna against Quebec.

The federal government is showing a lack of openness and fairness in that matter. It refuses to communicate detailed data on the maritimes. This refusal is unacceptable considering that a $1 billion compensation will be paid to those provinces from the income tax and other taxes paid by all Canadian taxpayers.

If the federal government really wants to help boost Quebec's economy, it will have to give Quebecers the money coming to them in all fairness. On May 21, 1996, the Quebec government asked for a $1.9 billion compensation under the adjustment assistance program. Quebec harmonized its tax with the federal tax and is in charge of its administration. It is easy to see that co-operating with the federal government is not very profitable.

I take this opportunity to mention that yesterday, my party, the Bloc Quebecois, has made public an excellent report demanding an overhaul of our personal income tax. In 1996, it had a similar report on the corporate income tax, a report that drew compliments from the finance minister.

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I hope the federal government will implement recommendations and proposals from those two reports in its upcoming budget. It should be bringing some order back, and a higher degree of fairness, in our tax system. For example, we know that Canadian banks do not pay their fair share of taxes when they are hoarding staggering profits of over $6 billion. We have the same problem with the chairmen of these banks. They are paid huge salaries but do not contribute a fair amount to government revenues.

The Bloc Quebecois report contains a number of suggestions to make our tax system more stable and fair. Rich taxpayers should pay more, and the poor should pay a little less. Taxpayers with big salaries could end up paying about $1,500 more each year, and those in the middle class as much as $800 less. Extra federal revenues would amount to $2.5 billion. This is an remarkable proposal by the Bloc Quebecois.

We should also be closing loopholes available to the rich. I congratulate the hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot on the excellent job he has done in this matter, and more particularly concerning his RRSP-Employment proposal. The Bloc Quebecois report suggests something extremely innovative, that is, to create an Employment RRSP program, which would allow the unemployed to start their own businesses with funds from their RRSPs. According to this report, maximum withdrawals of $25,000 would be repaid over 13 years. This tax initiative is very fair and should create many jobs.

I have seen the response of the labour movement, in particular the CLC, which is demanding more fairness in tax system. They say that the current tax system is not fair, that average income earners must bear a disproportionate tax burden. This view is shared by the whole labour movement.

(1135)

However, the government in its last budget cut part of the tax credits for the workers' fund, in particular the Fonds de solidarité of the FTQ. As a former unionist, I cannot accept the government making cuts in this outstanding job creation tool.

[English]

Mr. Cliff Breitkreuz (Yellowhead, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I am particularly pleased to participate in the debate with you in the Chair. I am sure you remember all too well how you were treated by the governing party when you stuck to your principles and was kicked out of the party. I commend you for taking that stand.

Here we are just four days back sitting in this House and we are debating some aspects of the GST. That should be good news to Canadians because by now every Canadian must know about all the promises government members made, from the Prime Minister to all the Liberal candidates who knocked on doors during the last election promising voters that if elected they would abolish, kill or scrap the GST.

Having made all those promises to do away with the GST, the government finally got around to legislation to accomplish that. Is that what we are debating? Are we debating the government's promises? Are we debating a bill that would see the end of the GST? After all that is what the promises were. No, that is not the debate, not at all.

So much for the Liberals' broken promises. Instead of debating a bill to end the GST and reduce it to the rubble heap where it belongs, we are debating the harmonization of the tax, not reducing this most reviled tax to the rubble heap, but how to harmonize the tax with the provincial sales taxes in Atlantic Canada.

Let us look for a moment at the word harmonize and then briefly examine why the government targeted Atlantic Canada specifically. Harmonize is such a nice word. It rings like music to the ears and well it should because the word has a soothing, musical connotation. But that is not all. It also implies a sense of unity, which is not something this government knows too much about, a sense of togetherness and co-operation. When applied to the GST however, harmonization means the four C's. When applied to the GST, harmonization means coercion, confusion, cost and cover-up.

Why target Atlantic Canada? Probably because it was the most vulnerable. Atlantic Canada has been dealt several serious blows by the powers residing in Ottawa. The golden triangle interests became concerned about the economic muscle and the trade activity that characterized Atlantic Canada for decades, possibly even centuries. Ottawa effectively wiped out the shipbuilding industry, which at one time was a flourishing industry; the fishing industry, and we all know about that; the sealing industry, and God knows what else. Well, I guess we do know.

Eventually Atlantic Canada will have to bear the costs of harmonization of the GST, notwithstanding the billion dollar incentive to embrace it now. But more about costs a little later if time permits.

Let us turn to the first C, coercion. Part of the harmonization plan would force businesses to hide the new harmonized sales tax, the HST, in the price of the product or service being sold. And here is the clincher. Businesses in Atlantic Canada had better be aware of this and I am sure they are. They should be well aware of this, but perhaps there are people across the country who still may not know. Here it is: Shopkeepers, businesses, people who make a mistake and sell a product without including the tax in the price would face fines, jail and hence a criminal record. And that is it. It is off to the calaboose, to the gulag for those brave souls who would reveal how much tax Canadian consumers are paying. That is right, it is off to jail, which is absolutely despicable.

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(1140)

Imagine this happening in a country that boasts about its freedoms, liberties and open society. While rapists and robbers can be granted absolute discharges by a judge under sections 763 and 737 of the Criminal Code, Gramps, Pops or Annie down at the cornerstore will be excluded under these sections and they will rot, will languish in jail for not including the HST in the price of a chocolate bar.

Will this government reduce our country and subject Canadians to this kind of lunacy? It is absolutely unbelievable. This reminds me of Bill C-68, the gun control bill. Criminals will possess and use their guns but farmer Jones who may forget to register his .22 or his 12 gauge will be hauled off to jail. If farmer Jones is a grain farmer and does the unthinkable, that is, he sells his wheat or barley to the Americans, then Mr. Jones faces a double whammy. Mr. Jones could be in the same fix as Mr. McMechan.

Andy McMechan did what any other owner of a product in Canada can rightfully do which is they can sell their product abroad. That is what Andy McMechan did. He also did the unthinkable. He sold his wheat to the Americans, just like a steel maker or any kind of fabricator or a cattleman or someone selling any kind of service. These people can sell their goods and services abroad, even to the Americans. But farmers cannot sell their wheat or barley abroad without first selling it to the Canadian Wheat Board and then buying it back at a greatly jacked up price. Then with a permit they can sell it abroad, even to the Americans.

Andy refused to buy back his own wheat and barley, but he did sell to the Americans. Then they came, probably at midnight or maybe just before dawn so the neighbours could not see. Government officials descended on McMechan's farm to seize his farm truck which he would not allow. Then the government officials hauled Andy off to jail without his being formally charged.

Get this. Andy McMechan languished in jail for about six months without being formally charged, but they allowed him to spend Christmas with his family. He risks losing his farm because of the coercion of the government.

Did Andy receive an apology from the government for what the government subjected him and his family to, like a former Prime Minister received? Not that I know of. Andy is an average, hard working taxpayer. The former Prime Minister even though he is out of office is still a member of this country's political elite. He received an apology, plus a cool million dollars or so. What might happen to Andy? He just might lose his farm. So much for coercion, the way it applies to the HST.

I will now speak a bit about the confusion it creates. I have to read this because it is confusing even to read about what the HST will do to Atlantic Canadians. It is probably confusing enough to have a combined provincial and federal sales tax in three of Canada's provinces, two separate sales taxes in six provinces, and only one sales tax in one province. If we need it to be more confounded, how about this.

The new HST legislation will exempt some items from the hidden tax rule and allow businesses to show both a tax inclusive price and a tax exclusive price, as long as the former is displayed. Shoppers could conceivably be faced with four different prices for the same marked down item: the original price with the tax; the original price without the tax; the sale price with the tax; and the sale price without the tax. Confusing? I should say so. It seems to me that businesses in this country are increasingly being reduced mostly as tax collectors for governments.

(1145)

There is more about examples of costs. A study by the accounting firm Ernst & Young estimated that a mid-sized national chain with 50 stores in the Atlantic provinces would put up to $3 million in one time costs and up to $1.1 million a year to comply with a regional tax in price sales system. The Halifax Chamber of Commerce predicts that the harmonized sales tax will push up new house prices by 5.5 per cent as well as force municipalities to raise property taxes.

I see my time is up, but I hope I get a chance to talk a little more about this particularly agonizing piece of legislation.

[Translation]

Mr. René Canuel (Matapédia-Matane, BQ): Mr. Speaker, it is a bit embarrassing and even humiliating to have to claim what is rightly ours.

Once again, the province of Quebec, through Mr. Landry, is talking about $2 billion that we now have to claim, compared to the maritimes. The GST saga under this Liberal government will go down in the history of our Canadian Parliament, and what a tale it will be. It will be known as one and even several broken promises.

During the 1993 election campaign the prime minister and his ministers promised during their tour of Canada, especially in Quebec, that they would create jobs. ``Jobs, jobs, jobs'', they kept saying. The next election will be here soon and they will probably use the same slogan and again promise us ``jobs, jobs, jobs''. In my riding of Matapédia-Matane, we are still looking for the jobs the federal government has supposedly created.

There was another promise. First, let me remind the House of the promises made in the red book on page 22: ``The GST has lengthened and deepened the recession. It is costly for small business to administer and very expensive for the government to collect. And the GST has fallen far short of its promised revenue

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potential partly because it has stimulated the underground cash economy''.

Could it be that once in office federal Liberals realized that the commitments they made in the red book did not hold water? Could it be that, with the Liberals in office, the GST no longer deepens the recession? That it is no longer costly for small business to administer and that it is bringing in its promised revenue potential?

Moreover, if what is in the red book is true, the GST has now suddenly stopped stimulating the underground cash economy. I have a hard time believing that a miracle has happened since the Liberals, these princes of darkness, took office.

Further down on the same page of the red book, we can read: ``A Liberal government will replace the GST with a system that generates equivalent revenues, is fairer to consumers and to small business, minimizes disruption to small business, and promotes federal-provincial fiscal co-operation and harmonization''.

(1150)

If I understand correctly, the GST is unfair for consumers and small businesses. It is also a nightmare for small and medium size businesses, and it deters federal and provincial governments from co-operating and harmonizing their policies.

All those big defects would also have, as if by chance, disappeared a few months after the Liberals came to power. Federal Liberals, by some sort of magical trick, would have toned down the GST's worst effects, and the GST would no longer hurt anyone. On the contrary, it would almost be a godsend.

After the broken promises of the red book came the promise made by the Prime Minister who, like a new messiah, stated that he would abolish the tax. Some time later, he said that he had never promised such a thing. He only said that the GST would be replaced. This is hard to believe for me as well as for my constituents and the rest of the country.

Can we believe the Prime Minister? Can we have faith in him? The Deputy Prime Minister even resigned because she had really promised to abolish the GST. But the Prime Minister always affirmed the contrary. The Deputy Prime Minister resigned, and it cost us half a million dollars to get her re-elected. What a scandal. What utter nonsense. It is another episode in the GST saga.

As for the Minister of Finance, he admits that he cannot replace the GST nor abolish it. At least he admits having made a mistake by letting people believe it was possible. The Prime Minister, on the other hand, maintains he never said he would abolish the tax.

The rest of the story is not really any rosier. Quebec, which is administered by a nasty sovereigntist government-according to the federalists-decided to harmonize that tax with its own taxation system. Aware of the extra red tape that tax represents for businesses, the government of Quebec decided to take action to help the economy.

However, it will not receive any compensation from the federal government. The only expression of thank Quebecers will get from the Minister of Finance for having saved him money will be the obligation to pay a quarter of the compensation of almost one billion dollars that was granted to the maritimes. Not only will we not receive anything but we will have to help the maritimes. This is clearly another example of the inequities of the federal system as managed by our friends across the floor.

To get out of the mess they put themselves in, the Liberals are ready to buy the concurrence by the maritimes. They will buy the tax harmonization by making taxpayers in Quebec and Canada cough up almost one billion dollars.

The Quebec government does not ask for different treatment, but only for the same treatment as the maritimes. However, the federal government does not want to give compensation because it is Quebec.

It must be said that we, Quebecers, are unfortunately used to that kind of attitude from the federal government. In research and development, you know that we never got our fair share. The history of the Canadian Confederation is full of examples of that. So, you will understand that we have had enough.

(1155)

That is why Quebecers want to achieve sovereignty. We no longer want to pay federal taxes that will go directly to the maritimes. We do not want the government to play that dirty trick on us. Mind you it is not the first time.

We no longer want to pay for the errors made by the federal government, let alone for campaign promises that a party is unable to keep. We no longer want policies such as the national energy policy which, in the 70s, almost completely destroyed Quebec's petrochemical industry without any compensation for Quebec.

I am almost tempted to say thank you. Quebecers will remember that. They will not be fooled by this government in the next election. This time, we do not want to hear about jobs, jobs, jobs. Two billion dollars represent 35,000 jobs, which would lower the unemployment rate by 1 per cent in Quebec. We need these 35,000 jobs, especially in my riding of Matapédia-Matane. The government owes it to us.

We are not asking for a gift, we are simply asking to get back what we pay in taxes to the federal government.

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[English]

Mrs. Sue Barnes (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of National Revenue, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I was not planning to speak in this debate today and I will do so for only a few moments.

I think when we hear incorrect information we are responsible to correct it as soon as possible. The Reform member who spoke before the last member opposite, the member for Yellowhead, was talking about criminal penalties on pricing. He said that if we do not have tax in pricing there would be a criminal penalty. I think that is unfortunate because it is misinformation. I want to be very clear that this is not a criminal offence. At one point there was something in the legislation. However, we all know that in Parliament we have a process for bills, a process of working through this House and through the committees of Parliament legislation so it can be accurate and responsive.

There is a ticketing offence, if one wishes to call it an offence, under the Contraventions Act. This is similar to a driving fine. However, that is a far cry from a criminal offence. Basically that section the member was referring to, in the process that finished a couple of weeks ago when the finance committee met for a review of this bill, that section was taken out of the bill. It will actually end up in some regulation.

I think it is inappropriate to stand in this House and do some scaremongering and fearmongering. Criminal Code offences are a far different thing. We do not have Criminal Code situations here. This is misinformation. Those are the types of situations, when we see a bill and know the work that has gone into it, we know that not everybody does the same amount of homework before they stand up in this House, so I just wanted to correct the misinformation spread.

Mr. Dick Harris (Prince George-Bulkley Valley, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is amazing, the Liberals stand up here and talk about scaremongering and fearmongering but they are the experts at it. That is exactly what they are doing right now to the hardworking Canadian taxpayers out there who are scared to death of another tax coming down the tube from this Liberal government. That is scaremongering.

Canadians are afraid to plan their futures. They are afraid to plan their children's education because they may not be able to afford it. They are afraid of losing their job. They are afraid of not being able to afford the next tax levy that comes down from this Liberal government. They are afraid to make any long term financial commitments because of this Liberal government's tax policies. That is real fearmongering. That is scaremongering at the highest level.

There is a whole larger issue at stake here with Bill C-70. This is just one small symptom of the big issue. That big issue can be addressed by asking when is a promise made a promise to be kept? When is a promise a promise? I would suggest that a promise is a promise only when it is not made verbally by a Liberal candidate in a federal election. That is the root of this issue.

(1200)

Verbal promises have been tested in the highest courts of this land and have been found to be legally binding. But that does not matter to Liberal candidates who campaigned door to door in the 1993 election. They went door to door, meeting to meeting and verbally-they are very careful-said to the Canadian people ``We hate the GST, we will scrap it, we will abolish it. We have always said that we hated the GST and when we get to be government, it will be gone. We will kill it''.

That is what they said as they went from door to door, house to house, meeting to meeting, coffee party to coffee party. They made that verbal promise to the Canadian people, a type of promise which they do not recognize as being legally binding as it has been legally binding for decades in the highest courts of this land.

By contrast, when Reformers went from door to door, coffee party to coffee party, house to house, meeting to meeting, we promised the Canadian people that we would do our utmost to protect them from the Liberal tax and spend policies, and that is exactly what we do in this House on a daily basis. That is a promise kept. We made it verbally, we put it in writing and we are keeping that promise. We have the guts to do that, unlike this Liberal Party, which will say one thing from the mouth and put another thing on paper. That is the big issue here, integrity and honesty in this government, of which there is none.

When the government members sat in the benches over here as opposition to the Tory Party, which brought in this hated tax in the first place, they railed against it: ``How could you do this to the Canadian people?'' They called the Mulroney government every name in the book for bringing in this regressive and devastating tax. They were very vocal against it.

When they campaigned in 1993, the Liberals said to the Canadian people ``Trust us, we're not like the Tories. First, we are telling you the truth and you must trust us. We will kill, scrap, abolish this dreaded Tory GST''. That is what they said.

The Prime Minister said ``we hate it and we will kill it''. He said it on a radio program which he conveniently forgot, just as he completely forgot his imaginary friend. He said that he would kill the GST and when he was questioned by a member of the audience he asked ``what radio station, where did I say it, come on?''

Fortunately the CBC was mad at the government at that time about the cuts to the CBC, which is another promise that was talked about by the minister of heritage. So the CBC decided to run some

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tape which would show the Prime Minister for what he is, a person who does not believe a verbal promise is legally binding.

The Minister of Finance said ``I would abolish the GST'', which does not sound anything like ``I would harmonize the GST. I would bury it in with some other tax''. The minister of defence said ``the GST is a regressive tax; it has to be scrapped and when we get to be government we will scrap it''. That is what he said.

The bottom line is that the Liberals misled Canadians on their GST promise. To them a promise is not a promise. They misled Atlantic Canadians. Taxpayers across the country are going to pay for that broken promise and they are going to pay over and over again. It will hurt every taxpayer because in order to get the Atlantic provinces to agree to this harmonization scam, the Liberals are going to give them a cash payment to make up for the shortfall. Talk about a buyout. Talk about a buyout to try to somehow justify this Liberal broken promise once again.

(1205)

This payment is estimated to be as high as $1 billion to Atlantic Canada and taxpayers in every other region of Canada are going to pay it. Tax relief is important but it has to be across the board if it is going to be tax relief. Canadians in certain regions of the country should not be asked to subsidize a tax cut for the maritimes. In all it is not a tax cut really.

The Liberals are using $1 billion from taxpayer money to buy a buried GST in Atlantic Canada so they can say their election promise slate is not as dirty as it has proven to be. This is truly despicable and Canadians are not missing this one. Believe me, they are not missing this Liberal broken promise.

They did not miss it on the national town hall meeting where the Prime Minister was caught red handed in a Liberal broken promise, a promise that his candidates from the Liberal Party told hundreds of thousands of Canadians, millions of Canadians in the 1993 election. He was caught in his own broken promise on videotape. Tapes do not lie. Videotapes do not lie.

It is interesting that Atlantic Canadians will also suffer because while they pay a lower tax rate, they will pay taxes on a larger variety of goods and services. In fact, a seemingly lower tax rate really does not mean necessarily a lower tax rate because you will be paying a seemingly lower rate but on a huge variety of goods and services. The tax base has been expanded. A neat Liberal trick.

It is nice that the government talks about child poverty. The harmonized tax will apply to children's clothing. Does that figure somewhere in child poverty? I understand children who are living in poverty do need cloths. They probably do not need a tax on those clothes.

It will apply to books. I understand that education helps to get children into a position where they will not have to live in poverty anymore. It will apply to haircuts. Even poor kids need a haircut.

It will apply to funeral services and heating oil. Heating oil is a major expenditure to families that live at the poverty level. Now the government is going to put a tax on heating oil. So much for its concern about the poorer Canadians of our society.

It will apply to gasoline. Poor Canadians in our society still have to go out and try to look for a job or ways to increase and improve their lot in life. Now the government is going to charge more gasoline taxes. And it will apply to new homes.

By the way, where have all the MPs from Atlantic Canada been in this debate? Where are all the MPs sent here from Atlantic Canada to protect the interests of the Atlantic Canadians, the maritimes? Where are they? They are sitting in their seats silent because they have been told to do so. ``Don't you stand up and defend your constituents. This is a government bill and, by golly, if you dare speak against it you are going to be disciplined''.

Where is the member from the Conservative Party? Where is she speaking on this? She is from Atlantic Canada, the maritimes.

This is a regressive tax. It is going to hurt Canadians. It is going to hurt the poorest of Canadians. How on earth could a Liberal government that promises to have the best interests of Canadians, the best interests of the poorest people in our society at heart, even conceive of putting such a regressive and hurtful tax on Canadians in this country?

[Translation]

Mr. Roger Pomerleau (Anjou-Rivière-des-Prairies, BQ): Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise on Bill C-70. I say this for the benefit of our viewers, this bill is a collection of amendments to the GST.

(1210)

The group of motions we are dealing with contains among other things amendments aimed at harmonizing the GST with the sales tax in three maritime provinces. The amendments brought forward by the Bloc with regard to those motions are basically aimed at withdrawing any legislation on harmonization and compensation. There are several reasons for this.

This bill is flawed, based exclusively on political and electoral considerations, since everything suggests that we are about to have an election. It is poorly drafted and flawed.

What is more, in order to convince the three maritime provinces, which did not expect it, the federal government had to promise political compensation of close to one billion dollars, while it has

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systematically refused to pay Quebec the two billion dollars it lost by harmonizing its provincial sales tax with the GST in 1991.

Quebec is often pictured as the black sheep or the spoilsport of the system. We have here the best example of this. Quebec was the first province to support harmonization with the federal tax and now they are going to make the province pay for that.

My colleagues will further develop each and every point I have raised,to put them in their proper perspective. They have already begun. Several have already spoken and they will be followed by others. For my part, I would like to underscore the fact that this bill is first and foremost a symbol.

It is a symbol that makes three things very clear. First, it shows the present government's lack of transparency. Second, it points to the fact that, in the Canadian Confederation, Quebec constantly ends up on the losing side, economically speaking. I should use the term ``federation'', because Canada stopped being a confederation long ago. In fact, Quebec does not receive its fair share of spinoffs from its investments in Canada, amounting to 25 per cent of Canada's revenues. Third, this bill also shows that any member from Quebec elected in Ottawa as a Liberal or a Conservative always ends up taking Ottawa's side against Quebec.

The government's lack of transparency has been plain to see throughout its mandate, during this legislature, since 1993. This bill is in keeping with this lack of transparency. It is the last chapter before the election, it is the icing on the cake.

Some recent events are clear indications of the government's lack of transparency. I will try to go fast, but there are many of them. There is the tainted blood issue. While the Prime Minister claims to want the entire situation brought to light-that is what he says all the time-he refuses to initiate the process of giving Mr. Justice Krever access to the documents that would allow him to get at the truth. This morning, we learned that the RCMP was looking for related documents that are said to have disappeared. Where is the transparency?

There is also the Somalia inquiry. While promising once again to get at the truth, the Prime Minister has refused the extension requested by the inquiry and its chairman. We know for a fact that, if this commission needs a extension, it is only because the Canadian army hid documents. Months were lost tracking them down.

The Airbus affair was another example of lack of transparency. The previous Prime Minister, Mr. Mulroney, was pronounced guilty in advance, almost under criminal charges. We know full well that this is contrary to Canadian law and yet nobody is responsible.

Etymologically the word responsible refers to the person who is able to provide a response. When we ask questions in the House, we never get any response, which means that nobody is responsible. Somebody else is, the system is or some other thing. There is not one minister who is responsible.

Here are a few blatant examples of broken promises and lack of transparency on the part of the government: it promised to tear up the free trade agreement, and yet it signed it; it promised to deprivatize the Pearson airport, but the issue has not been settled yet and has been handled in such a way that it might cost taxpayers tens of millions of dollars.

(1215)

Remember the commitment to Quebec during the referendum to recognize the concept of distinct society and give Quebec its veto back? Another broken promise. Every Quebecer remembers it. Remember the promise to create jobs, jobs, jobs?

In his last budget, not the forthcoming one, the one he tabled before, the finance minister told us: ``The government's role is not to create jobs, we are going to create the right environment for corporations to create jobs''. When we look at major corporations posting record breaking profits, starting with the banks, we see that they are all laying off people.

One has to wonder who in Canada is creating jobs these days, but not why 1.5 million Canadians are unemployed. ``Jobs, jobs, jobs'', another broken promise. And now the ultimate one, the one that tops them all, the one we are dealing with today. They were going to scrap the GST. Instead they are talking about changing the GST harmonization standards.

This promise was heard on every radio and TV station, and the Prime Minister told us on May 2, 1994: ``We hate this tax, we will do away with it''. The hated tax did not disappear, so they are trying to hide it. The finance minister apologized, saying that they should not have made such a promise. The Deputy Prime Minister resigned, and the Prime Minister still insists he never said anything of the kind.

I am sure you have read the Toronto newspapers; they were hard enough on the Prime Minister. I will not repeat in the House what the journalists wrote because it would be unparliamentary. It is easy to see there is no transparency there.

Secondly, as this bill shows clearly, Quebec is always the loser within the Canadian Confederation because it never receives its fair share. Since we have been here, we have held numerous debates in the House to explain how Quebec never gets its share of structuring expenditures, of job creating expenditures. We have often given the example of research and development as an area where Quebec gets nothing, where it never gets its share of expenditures.

This GST case is just one more example. The maritimes will receive a billion dollars for the harmonization whereas Quebec got absolutely nothing for harmonizing its QST with the GST. What does this mean? Since Quebecers make up one quarter of Canada's revenues, it means that the federal government is taking $250

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million away from Quebecers to send it to the maritimes while Quebec is receiving nothing at all.

We all know what the people over there will do with that money. Mr. McKenna for one is raiding Quebec to attract Quebec businesses. We are paying people for them to come here and compete with us. That is the kind of system we live in. The GST situation shows that clearly.

Finally, the third point this bill proves is that a liberal member from Quebec, when he is in Ottawa, will always take Ottawa's side against Quebec.

Mr. Speaker, your are telling me I have only one minute left, so I will try to conclude swiftly. Where are the Quebec members when the government refuses to pay Quebec and takes $250 million from Quebecers to send it to the maritimes, with nothing in return? Liberal members from Quebec are saying nothing and are nowhere to be seen.

Where were the Liberal members from Quebec when the government seized from the unemployment insurance fund $5 billion that collectively belonged to the workers? Mum was the word. They were nowhere to be seen. Where were the Liberal members from Quebec when family trusts moved to the United States without paying some $500 million in taxes? They were nowhere to be seen and did not say a word.

To conclude, Quebecers now know, thanks to this bill, that is no use sending a René Lévesque to Quebec City and a Pierre Trudeau to Ottawa, a Lucien Bouchard to Quebec City and a little guy from Shawinigan to Ottawa. Quebecers now know that Canada is not, as the Deputy Prime Minister was saying, a tower of Babel that works. It is a tower of Pisa, a tower that leans to one side: Ottawa.

(1220 )

[English]

Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak on Bill C-70 which harmonizes the sales taxes in the maritimes.

The object of the bill is an attempt to create jobs, to simplify the tax system and to stimulate the economy. This attempt by the government to harmonize the sales tax will do exactly the opposite. It is an example of an ill-advised taxation initiative which will put people out of work, increase the underground economy, drive companies into bankruptcy. Let me give some examples.

The business community has cried out against the present form of this tax. The Retail Council of Canada said that it will cost retailers at least $100 million per year. It will not only cost the retailers, obviously it will cost those who pay for it in the end, the taxpayers. The Halifax Chamber of Commerce said that the sales tax will push up the cost of new houses by 5.5 per cent. This is in an area of the country where people are finding it increasingly difficult to purchase homes.

Consumers are going to pay more for children's clothing, books, gasoline, heating fuel: the essentials. In fact, it will hurt those who are least able to afford it. The government should be embarrassed about doing that to the people of Atlantic Canada.

The intent, though, is sensible. Having a harmonized sales tax is actually a good thing but it has to occur in a different number of ways. It has to be one tax for the entire country applied across the board. The rate has to be lower than what it is now. We need one auditing procedure and it has to be simpler and easier to understand. It has to have one single remittance and one set of rules.

The system that is proposed by the government does not do that at all. It just increases the complexity. Furthermore, it asks Canadians outside the provinces in the maritimes to fund this project by shunting money from the west to the maritimes. For the moment, the west does not mind providing for provinces that are less able to afford things. However, to ingrain this harmonized sales is doing a disservice to all Canadians. This tax will affect over 50 per cent of businesses in the maritimes in a massively negative way. This is information from the business community in the maritimes.

There are ways to get around this. There are ways to provide a sales tax that will be better and therefore stimulate the economy. There are ways to get people back to work but the government has just nibbled around the edges for the last three years that we have been here. It has done very little to help the 10 per cent of Canadians who are unemployed and the nearly 20 per cent of Canadians who are under employed.

Here are a few constructive suggestions that I challenge the government to take up. First, the debt and the deficit. Get the deficit down to zero and decrease the debt. Second, instead of having the HST that the government is proposing, let us have a sensible harmonized sales tax that has one tax, a lower rate applicable across the country, that is simpler, with one reporting procedure per year, one auditing procedure that is easier to understand.

Better, of course, would be to scrap the tax altogether. A few years ago when the government of the day decided to lower taxes, what happened? More money came into the government coffers, more money was in the pockets of Canadians and the economy was stimulated. What did that government do? The Conservative government of the day started to tax wildly. That did the exact opposite of stimulating the economy and revenues to the public purse went down.

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We need to flatten the tax system. My colleagues in the Reform Party have proposed some sensible solutions for flattening the tax procedure for all Canadians. It is a simple tax that does not defeat the intent of working harder to earn more for ourselves and our families. It provides for a greater minimum exclusion for those in the lower socioeconomic groups so those who are poor in our society pay little or no tax at all. It is a win-win situation.

(1225)

Interprovincial trade barriers have to go. I do not know if the Canadian public realizes it but there are more barriers to trade east-west across our country than there are north-south. That is an embarrassment. The government has had opportunity after opportunity to deal with this but it has not.

We have serious problems in education in our country. There is a dislocation between the needs of the private sector and the initiatives of the education system. If we want to build a stronger Canada, if we want to build a nation where we can compete with countries from around the world, if we want to become one of the new tigers in the economy of the Asia-Pacific countries, then we have to invest in education.

We have to determine what will be the needs of the private sector in the 21st century. We have develop co-operative initiatives between the education system and the private sector to enable the students of today and tomorrow to develop the skills that will enable them to become employable in the future. That is not happening right now. I challenge the government to work with their provincial counterparts to do just that.

Number four is skills training. It is an embarrassment to us that we are one of the nations of the world with the lowest investment in skills and labour training in the developing world. How can we be competitive in the global economy if we do not invest in skills and labour training for our workers? That is absolutely essential if we are going to compete in the future.

We also need to reinvest in research and technology. The government is pulling money out of research and technology. It is doing the same thing with education. The government ripped some $7 billion from transfer payments for education, health and welfare and claimed it was balancing the budget. All the government is doing is balancing its budget on the backs of taxpayers. At the end of the day it is the taxpayer who pays for everything.

We have to capitalize on foreign markets. We heard that we should be reinvesting in north-south trade. Thirty years ago trade in Asia represented 5 per cent of the world's gross national product. Today it is 30 per cent and growing. We are uniquely positioned to take advantage of this in my province of British Columbia. We have the geography, we have the people, we have the opportunity for skills development, not only for points east in Asia-Pacific but also as a conduit and as a channel for points in Europe and points south. Very few nations, in fact no nation, can boast the ideal position that we have today.

I challenge the people of Canada to realize that our system of governance today is not a democracy at all. It operates more like a fiefdom. Democracy has very little to do with what takes place within our nation today. In fact, most of the important decisions made are made by a group of non-elected, unaccountable officials that the public never sees. That is where the legislative initiatives occur. They are made not to make this country a better place, but purely for the maintenance and acquisition of power.

If the Canadian public wants to see radical, fundamental, positive social and economic change, then they will have to get angry and put pressure on all of their elected officials to demand the changes in governance that we will require if we are going to be an aggressive player in the economy of the 21st century.

We also need strong leadership that demonstrates and expresses a vision of the country that is going to lead us into the 21st century where we will be able to demonstrate strength and compassion. Right now, that does not occur.

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We need to build a nation where all able-bodied individuals can develop the skills training they require. And it is an obligation for all able-bodied individuals to capitalize on those opportunities. We also need to fulfil our obligation to those individuals who cannot take care of themselves and ensure that our social programs are placed on a sustainable footing.

If we can see that leadership in this nation, we will be able to lead our people into a stronger and brighter future in the 21st century. Failure to do that will mean terrible social and economic consequences in the future and we will only be a shadow of what we can be in Canada.

[Translation]

Mr. Gilbert Fillion (Chicoutimi, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am also pleased to speak today to Bill C-70, which, among other things, makes some amendments on harmonization of the GST with the tax in the three maritimes provinces.

It will be remembered that, just before Christmas, the official opposition deplored the way in which the finance minister had tabled the documents relating to this bill. The opposition had less than 24 hours to examine a very technical bill, in which this whole reform was set out in 300 pages, without any explanatory notes.

However, in January of this year, we witnessed an even more revolting spectacle for anybody who believes in the quality of democratic life in Canada. First, the Liberals allowed only three

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days of public hearings for such an important bill. And we know this bill is very important to the maritime provinces.

The opposition tabled a motion calling for an extension to consultations, and even for the committee to travel to the maritimes to listen to the people. The government wanted none of this. It is clear, therefore, that this government has no regard for democracy.

With three days of public hearings, under the pretext that complaints were made, the government moved 13 amendments. Imagine how many amendments could have been made if, for once, the government had been listening to what people had to say. The whole bill would then have ended up in the waste paper basket. It must also be said that this bill is a great source of embarrassment for the government. That is why it wants to have it rammed through.

In December, someone came to call in my region. The Prime Minister came to my riding to tell us that we had misunderstood what he had said about the GST. Millions of us were under the impression that the GST would be abolished. Do these words have a different meaning? I would like to hear the members opposite on this. What this bill does is show that promises were not kept, whether they were made in the red book, by the Prime Minister himself, by the Minister of Finance, by the Deputy Prime Minister and heritage minister or by any past or present Liberal candidate or member. Clearly, the Liberal government has lost sight of the people on behalf of whom it is supposed to govern.

(1235)

During the 1993 campaign, countless statements were made about scrapping the GST entirely. The Prime Minister himself used the word ``scrap''. In 1994, he said the Liberals hated this tax and would kill it. A byelection was even run at taxpayers' expense on this issue. That was not so long ago. We all remember. Eliminating the GST was an election promise. But instead of being eliminated, it is being disguised, hidden. This leads us to say that, through this bill, the Liberals are doing exactly the opposite, what they had criticized.

The new GST is a hypocritical tax; from now on, it will be hidden in the cost of goods and services. However, in a report of the Standing Committee on Finance dating back to 1994, the Liberal majority said that it would be improper to hide from Canadians the amounts they paid in taxes to their governments and that making it a hidden tax undermined their ability to make the government accountable for the way these taxes were collected and, to a lesser extent, for the way moneys were spent.

The position of the Liberals on hiding the GST in the sales price used to be that, if the GST was hidden in the sales price, it would be much easier for the government to increase it later on. Yet, we know that 76 per cent of Canadian businesses are opposed to hiding the GST in the sale price of goods and services. Personally, when I pay my bills, I want to know where my money goes. I want to know how much I am paying for the goods or services, and how much I am paying to the government. And I am sure my constituents feel the same way. I sincerely believe that some members opposite should go back to their riding and talk to those who elected them.

I want to discuss another aspect of this most undemocratic bill, that is yet another infringement of the rights of Quebecers. During the referendum campaign, and even after, we were constantly told that all Canadians were equal. Why is it then that, under this bill, Quebecers are being refused the compensation awarded to the maritime provinces? Such is the kind of equality that prevails under our federal system.

Yes, Quebec did harmonize its tax with the federal one; Quebec administers that tax. Quebec acted very responsibly. So why should Quebecers not be entitled to the same compensation that the federal government is giving the maritime provinces?

The maritimes may be facing additional costs to harmonize their tax with the federal one, but so does Quebec.

(1240)

If the maritimes are entitled to $1 billion in compensation, Quebec should also be entitled to a compensation. The Minister of Finance must act in a fair manner. The term ``harmonization'' implies that the parties get together and are, for all intents and purposes, in agreement. However, it seems that this concept takes on a different meaning with this Liberal government.

I would have liked to discuss the tax on books, but I will conclude by simply saying this: in Quebec, the provincial sales tax does not apply to books. In Quebec, we realized a long time ago that taxing books means taxing knowledge.

[English]

Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Vegreville, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to this group of amendments to Bill C-70, the so-called harmonization bill.

Those who have been listening to the debate over the last couple of days will know that this bill will not lead to harmonization at all. It will mean that three provinces will live under a completely different set of rules than the rest of the country. Part of the reason for that is that the other provinces do not think it is the right thing to do and will not give the federal government their approval. We have anything but harmonization. What we have is more disunity and more divisiveness in the country as a result of this legislation.

Any amount of amendment to the bill will not fix it. The fact is that the bill will not make things better. It will not harmonize the tax across the country, it will lead to a split. It will not fulfil the

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Liberal promise to get rid of the GST. Those who have been listening to the debate over the last few days will know that.

Leading up to the last election campaign, during the election campaign and since the election, many Liberal MPs and the Prime Minister have very clearly promised to abolish, kill, scrap the GST. There is no doubt about that.

This harmonization bill is not a well thought out piece of legislation. It is a smoke screen so the Liberals can say on the campaign trail that they kept their promise to scrap the GST, but it will not sell. Those 10, 20, 30 or 40 Liberal MPs who were elected on the promise of getting rid of the GST are in danger of losing their seats on that one issue alone. No amount of amendment and certainly not the amendments in this group will solve the problem.

I want to speak to these amendments and to the so-called harmonization of the GST from another point of view. As the Reform Party critic for interprovincial trade, I want to deal with that issue and explain how this legislation clearly violates the government's agreement on internal trade. That agreement does not allow legislation such as this to apply to one part of the country and not another. This bill clearly violates the agreement. I will speak to the bill from that point of view.

(1245 )

Some people may not be surprised that this piece of legislation or one piece of legislation would clearly contradict legislation that was presented earlier by this government, but that does not mean it is right.

I suppose I should not be surprised that the government would break its own law, a law it has put in place, the agreement on internal trade, through the introduction of another piece of legislation. That is what it has done. I should not be surprised but I do not accept it. Many other Canadians do not accept it. Canadians expect government to honour the laws it puts in place just as they expect everyone to honour the laws that are put in place. This legislation clearly violates the government's own law.

The agreement on internal trade is falling apart. The agreement was put in place after the negotiations between the provinces and the federal government throughout 1994. After it was signed in 1995, I thought the government had made some progress on this issue. It had reached an agreement in some areas on removing barriers to interprovincial trade. In other areas it set a framework and a timeframe for removing further barriers to internal trade and the provinces had agreed in principle to removing the barriers to internal trade. I thought progress had been made.

Unfortunately very little progress has been proven over time. The set deadlines have been broken one after another to the point that British Columbia is saying that it will not even take part in the negotiations on the so-called MUSH sector, the sector that deals with procurement for municipalities, universities, schools and hospitals. British Columbia announced earlier this week that it will not even take part in negotiations to try to finish this agreement.

Deadlines have passed. The agreement never had a mechanism to ensure that the provinces and the federal government would abide by the rules of the agreement. With the formula for approving changes to the agreement, being unanimous consent, it was clear from the start that it would be very difficult to complete the agreement. And that has proven to be the case.

There are several reasons this is such an important issue, why it is so important to Canadians that these barriers to interprovincial trade be removed. First, according to the Fraser Institute, it costs the average Canadian family $3,500 a year just having these barriers to trade in place. We have a situation in Canada where it is actually more difficult for a company based in one province to do business the other provinces than it is for a company in the United States to do business with all Canadian provinces.

The barriers have created an incentive for Canadian companies to relocate into the United States so they can have open access to all Canadian provinces. This drives jobs out of the country. The Canadian Chamber of Commerce stated in a report before Christmas that just reducing internal trade barriers or increasing internal trade by 10 per cent will create 200,000 jobs in this country. That is a lot of jobs.

For a government that was elected on the promise to get rid of the GST and partly on the promise to create jobs, you would think it would be enticing to make relatively simple changes compared to some of the other changes that would have to be made to create jobs. Just increasing trade between provinces by 10 per cent would create 200,000 jobs, but the government does not seem committed to this idea.

Now with British Columbia saying that it will not even negotiate, we are left to ask whether this 1995 agreement, which I said at the time was real progress, is really going to accomplish a thing.

We have a problem that needs to be dealt with with urgency. This harmonization bill and these amendments we are debating in this House are not going to solve a problem. They are not good for business in Atlantic Canada. They are not good for the people of Atlantic Canada, as jobs will be lost because of this deal. Many businesses involved have stated this clearly.

(1250)

There is a further aspect to this agreement on internal trade and the importance of the trade between provinces that has not been talked about very much. We have put the Canadian economy at risk, a risk we have put in place unnecessarily by coming to depend more and more on international trade before we have done the work

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to encourage trade between provinces and to make it easier for businesses to trade between provinces. There is an increased risk.

If we have a substantial increase in our dollar we are going to have a dramatic reduction in trade and this government and this country have come to depend on trade for jobs. Any new jobs that have been created have been pretty much due to international trade. We have an increase in the dollar, our trade surplus has decreased, which happened in the third quarter of last year. Our economy goes in the tank, unemployment increases. That is why it is so important to deal with this issue.

I will certainly continue on this topic relating it to the debate in future groups of amendments.

[Translation]

Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien (Frontenac, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the House of Commons is dealing with a crucial bill for the province of Quebec, Bill C-70, an act to harmonize the infamous GST with the provincial sales tax in three Canadian provinces, namely New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland.

This harmonization is another example of discrimination against the province of Quebec, which is nothing new. As early as 1841-and this is making the members opposite smile-the union of Lower and Upper Canada brought about the harmonization of the debts of the two territories. Lower Canada, that is the province of Quebec, French Canada if you prefer, was not heavily in debt at the time, but did not have a lot of infrastructures in place. On the other hand, Upper Canada was 12 times deeper in debt, but had a lot of roads, harbours, railroads, et cetera. After the union, Quebecers had to pay for the debts of English Canada. That is how our marriage to English Canada started. The majority at the time decided to split the debts equally between the two founding nations.

In 1997 as in 1841, we have the same remedy, the same type of discrimination. Given how the GST is being harmonized in three maritime provinces, according to a simple rule of three, Quebec should get nothing less than $2 billion in compensation.

What did the federal government offer Robert Bourassa, a Liberal from Quebec, when he agreed to harmonize with Brian Mulroney's Conservative government?

(1255)

Quebec was the first province in Canada to harmonize its provincial sales tax with the GST, but it did not get anything in return, except, of course, the sharing on a fifty-fifty basis of the costs associated with collecting the GST and the QST. Quebec taxpayers were even proud of this harmonization. As a farmer, I was happy too because instead of filling two forms, one for Ottawa and one for Quebec, I would have to fill only one form. So, personally, I was proud of the Quebec government at that time, even though it was headed by a Liberal, namely Robert Bourassa.

What I am driving at, Mr. Speaker, and your smile tells me you already know, is that Ottawa did not pay Quebec any compensation, and it is now ready to give these three small Atlantic provinces nothing less than a billion dollars. That is a flagrant case of injustice.

The same thing happened in 1996 when this government abolished the Western Grain Transportation Act. It released $3 billion to compensate three western provinces. It gave them $3 billion.

Last year, in 1996, as the member for Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot knows, the same government decided to abolish subsidies to industrial milk producers. What did Quebec producers get as compensation? Nothing. That is the kind of equality that exists in our country. That is the kind of medicine Quebecers get from this Liberal government. It is not surprising, my friends, that the Liberal Party is so low in the polls in Quebec.

We cannot wait to see the result of the next election. The Prime Minister himself, in his own riding of Saint-Maurice, will-to use his own expression-take a beating. That is what he was telling us before the referendum. Well, he is the one who is going to take a beating.

It takes nothing more than the rule of three to demonstrate that this government is cheating Quebecers out of $2 billion in this harmonization deal with the maritimes.

There is another example of discrimination, this time against Quebec and Ontario. You certainly know that, in recovering the costs associated with the RCMP, the federal government recovers only 70 per cent of the real costs. Quebec and Ontario each have their own provincial police force, namely the Sûreté du Québec and the OPP.

We pay 100 per cent of the costs associated with these police services. We pay whatever these services cost. But the other provinces pay only 70 per cent of the real cost of their police services. So Quebec and Ontario both are paying 30 per cent of the costs of the police forces in the maritimes and in most of the western provinces. Where is the equity? Where is the fairness in this country? As far back as 1841 it has been the same thing, year after year.

I would like to come back to the GST. Since October 1993, or let us say November 1993, the Liberal government has been turning in an amateur performance. It has improvised every last step of the way. First of all, think back to the 1993 election campaign, in September and October. The Deputy Prime Minister, the member for Hamilton East, made a solemn promise to step down if they had not abolished the GST in the first 12 months of their mandate.

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(1300)

Obviously, she will say today that she kept her word. But I would remind you that, just like a mother bird pushes her chick out of the nest to teach it to fly, the opposition members had to give her a shove to get her to resign. The Deputy Prime Minister's blunder cost Canadian taxpayers no less than $500,000.

When they are reminded of these mistakes and of the fact that this government improvised and behaved like a rookie, it hurts, of course. It hurts the Liberal members.

In 1993, all members heard the Prime Minister say in caucus that he was going to abolish the GST, to scrap it. One of their own dared to vote against the finance minister's budget last year. Like a good father, the Prime Minister kicked him out. As you know, I am talking about the member for York South-Weston. In December, during a question here, he reminded the Prime Minister that on at least three occasions he had promised to abolish the GST and had not kept his promise.

In closing, I would like to remind you of the credibility we politicians have with our electorate. Yesterday, in the House, we were once again treated to the sad display of two members removing their jackets and preparing to fight it out in the House of Commons, the people's Chamber. This makes us look ridiculous.

The Liberal member from British Columbia, the member for Okanagan-Shuswap, and the Liberal member for Scarborough Centre took off their jackets, undid their shirts and got ready to fight it out-

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken): I am sorry, but the member's time is up. It is too bad, because as usual his remarks are very interesting.

[English]

Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise again to speak on Bill C-70, the harmonized sales tax, the HST or, as a friend of mine, Mr. Mike Jenkinson from the Alberta Report referred to it, the helter-skelter tax. I thought the name that he applied to it was quite appropriate in so far as we have rules that apply to eastern Canada we have different rules that apply to western Canada and we have the Minister of Finance trying to bring Ontario on side. We have, more or less, harmonization with the GST in the province of Quebec. Right across the country it appears that there are different rules in different places. Therefore the helter-skelter tax perhaps is not that inappropriate.

I want to again focus on the concept of the Liberal Party which is tax and spend at all costs. If there is an opportunity to raise taxes, it will leave no stone unturned in order to find that extra dollar which it is always looking for in order that it can develop a new program to give to Canadians in order to buy their votes. When I say give to Canadians, it seems that the government always wants to break society into its different classifications.

I happened to see in the Globe and Mail today an article regarding youth jobs plan and some side steps training, how they are moving their focus away from training to a youth jobs plan and how they are perhaps going to focus several hundred million dollars into this program.

(1305 )

Youth training and youth jobs are vitally important. We have here the tax and spend philosophy of the Liberal government which taxes Canadians right across the board, the GST in this case, and harmonize sales tax in Atlantic Canada. Collect all these taxes and try to provide jobs for youth and job training for youth.

I cannot speak for my friends in the Bloc who introduced some tax increase concepts yesterday, but we in the Reform Party would like to point out clearly and definitively that if we can reduce taxation, especially for employers, it is surely better than the tax and spend philosophy of a government that takes it from employers and gives it back to a few.

We heard at the last election about the jobs, jobs strategy of the federal government where it was going to spend $6 billion to renew our infrastructure. We all know how much actually went into infrastructure renewal, not an awful lot. But that is another issue.

The point we are trying to make is that while the Liberals made a great issue of spending $6 billion to revitalize the economy and restart the economy to create jobs, we have heard nothing about the deliberate policy of the Minister of Finance of maintaining employment insurance premiums far higher than we need in order to cover the cost of payouts. He has therefore built up a surplus of $5 billion, all paid for by employers and employees. It is a payroll tax that the Minister of Finance has siphoned out of the business community in the last two years and therefore has recovered every penny of his $6 billion tax and spend program which did very little to create jobs in the first place.

The myth I want to point out is that tax and spend programs do not work and tax and spend programs allow the Minister of Finance to hide these payroll taxes that are inequitable and damaging to the economy. They destroy jobs but yet provide the federal government with the excuse to come up with a youth jobs plan to put this money back into the economy. Surely it makes imminent sense to leave the money in the hands of the employers in the first instance who can decide where best that money is to be spent.

I think of the state of the union address by the President of the United States the other day. He challenged every employer in the country to create one new position; through their own efforts to build a business and create another job. That I think is a wonderful

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challenge. Too bad the Minister of Finance did not think about it. Too bad the Liberals did not think about it. They are totally focused on taxing more money out of employers in order for them to come up with what they consider to be vote buying programs as they spend it back in the economy. There is a fundamental difference.

Let us look at this helter-skelter tax and at some of the rules they are going to ask business to administer. Do not tell me that they are not going to have extra costs. What about travel agents? I live in Alberta and I travel across the country as part of my position as a member of Parliament. Let us say I buy a ticket from Edmonton to Halifax. The travel agent has to charge me only the GST because the province of Alberta has no provincial sales tax, the only fortunate province in the country that gets by without one. If I ask the same travel agent in Alberta to provide me with a ticket from Halifax to Ottawa, the travel agent in Alberta has to charge the harmonized sales tax.

(1310 )

How is a travel agent supposed to accommodate that complexity of rules? As far as tickets are concerned the GST or the HST will apply based on the point of departure, not on the point of purchase.

The same applies to trucking and shipping goods across the country. Therefore who is going to set up a warehouse distribution system in Atlantic Canada where every shipment out of a warehouse will have a harmonized sales tax of 15 per cent when they can locate that warehouse in a different province and pay a lower GST and provincial sales tax?

These are job killing programs and the government comes out with this vote buying program such as job plans which is in the Globe and Mail today. That is an inequity on the taxation side. It is an inequity on the government spending side. That is why we say surely it makes a lot more sense to leave the money in the hands of the employer and give him the challenge of creating another job.

We hear about discrimination at every turn. We hear about discrimination about older people who find it so dreadfully difficult to get back into the workforce. Right now it is more appealing for this government to focus on the youth and it ignores the older people who want to return to the workforce.

I can expect on February 18 we are going to see some kind of program focused at them as well when surely it would have been so much better had the government lived up to its first election promise to axe, scrap and abolish the entire thing.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Chrétien (Frontenac)): Resuming debate, the hon. member for Calgary North.

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary North, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, I must say you are much better looking than I expected to see in the chair.

I am really happy to speak on this bill. The bill we are debating is Bill C-70. Bill C-70 is a very clumsy attempt by this Liberal government to harmonize the goods and services tax with the provincial sales taxes in three Atlantic provinces.

Another little wrinkle now which the Liberals have thrown into this mess is to hide the new harmonized sales tax from consumers by requiring the sticker price to include tax. In addition to some of the objections that I mentioned to this bill when I spoke on it before, we now have a situation where it is even worse than it was when I last spoke. Perhaps if I point out some of the difficulties to this government it will pay close attention and it will be happy to change the parts of the bill that are inadequate and inappropriate.

This tax inclusive pricing should be changed, should be abandoned, should be scrapped, a good Liberal word. for four reasons. One is that tax inclusive pricing kills jobs, the jobs, jobs, jobs that the Liberals promised us faithfully in the last election that they were going to create. It kills jobs because it hits business right between the eyes and takes away profits and resources that could have been used to expand business and hire more people.

The second reason this tax inclusive pricing is bad is it makes us pay more for what we buy. Goodness knows, with this government's sucking $24 billion more out of our pockets every year than it did when it took office, we can ill afford to have increased costs.

(1315 )

The third reason tax inclusive pricing should be scrapped is that it is clearly nothing more than a clumsy, shoddy attempt to hide the fact that the Liberals have broken another key election promise, which was to get rid of the GST.

The fourth reason to get rid of tax inclusive pricing is that it is a big example of how we are losing democracy in this country, how we are losing the ability of the people to have a say in things that affect them. That is perhaps the most serious problem of all.

I want the Liberals to know that I am going to agree with the Liberal finance minister, Paul Martin. The Liberal finance minister, Paul Martin, said on November 28, 1989: ``The goods and services tax is a stupid, inept and incompetent tax''. I agree with that statement. I agree that it is a tax which has caused nothing but headaches and grief to Canadians. I am sure all members of the House have had constituents in their offices who were absolutely beside themselves because the way the tax is administered, it is nearly impossible for them to know what the expectations are, what kind of rules and regulations they have to meet and what the true impact on their businesses will be.

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The Liberal finance minister, Paul Martin, said-

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken): Order. I know that the Minister of Finance would appreciate the hon. member's agreement, but she must know that under the rules of the House she may not refer to him by name but only by his title. I would invite her to restrain herself in that regard.

Mrs. Ablonczy: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will certainly respect that direction from the Chair.

In April 1990 the Liberal finance minister, whose name is well known to all Canadians, said this: ``I would abolish the GST. The manufacturers sales tax is a bad tax and there is no excuse to repeal one bad thing by bringing in another one''. I consider those words to be words of wisdom. One has to question why a bad tax like the GST is now being replaced by another even worse tax, the HST, in three of our provinces.

Those two statements by the Liberal finance minister were made while he was in opposition. Here is a statement which he made while he was the finance minister on June 21, 1994. Again this is a statement which I would agree with very strongly: ``It is almost impossible to design a tax that is more costly and more inefficient than the GST''.

The finance minister has certainly outdone himself. He has now brought in the HST with TIP, which is more costly and more inefficient, if that is possible, than the GST.

This is not just something for political rhetoric and political points. These taxes affect things which are very important to Canadians. In particular they affect jobs.

Bill C-70 as now constituted will increase costs to retail business and result in a net loss of jobs, particularly in Atlantic Canada. Perhaps I should repeat that for the benefit of members who represent Canadians in the three Atlantic provinces. They are supposed to be their voice but we have heard precious little from the members of Parliament from the Atlantic region. They should be sticking up and standing up for the interests of their constituents. For their benefit, perhaps they need to be reminded that Bill C-70 in its present form will increase the cost of doing business in the three Atlantic provinces. It will create confusion among consumers when shopping. It will decrease retail sales and will cost many, many Atlantic Canadians their jobs.

(1320)

I know that many others who have spoken on this bill have been very clear about the concerns that have been raised by retailers who do business in the Atlantic provinces. The bottom line is that these business people, these job creators, these people who pay the wages of real Canadians in those three Atlantic provinces estimate that they will lose at least $100 million because of this foolish proposal by the Liberal government to hide its tax in the sticker price in those three Atlantic provinces only.

When these things happen, the bottom line is that Canadians themselves have to pay the costs which costs Canadians more money. In addition to the fact that our taxes have been increased by this government by at least $24 billion every single year since it took over our affairs, it is now increasing costs by attempting to pretend it has kept a key election promise.

It is important to emphasize that democracy itself is at stake when we talk about the way our taxes are structured. There are two elements in the way the provisions of this bill have been brought forward which I think Canadians, particularly Canadians in the affected Atlantic provinces, should be concerned about.

One is that I did not see one single member from those provinces who represent thousands of Canadians whose jobs, incomes and spending discretion is going to be affected. I would also say that with closure being brought in, the concerns that they have are being stifled and cut off in this House.

I see I am also being cut off because my time is finished. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to make these remarks on this bill. I urge this House to reject it.

Mr. Campbell: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I believe I heard the hon. member opposite say that this government has imposed closure. That is untrue. Nothing of the sort has been done. I would like the record to be corrected.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken): I think that is a matter for debate. I do not think it is a point of order. The hon. member in her remarks did not say that it had been applied on this bill. She was careful to avoid suggesting any such thing. She said that the government has used closure. Clearly members disagree but I think the record is clear.

Is the House ready for the question?

Some hon. members: Question.

[Translation]

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken): The question is on Motion No. 3. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Some hon. members: Agreed.

Some hon. members: No.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken): All those in favour will please say yea.

Some hon. members: Yea.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken): All those opposed will please say nay.

Some hon. members: Nay.

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The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken): In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Milliken): The recorded division on the motion stands deferred.

[English]

The recorded division will also apply to Motions Nos. 6 to 14 inclusive, Motions Nos. 16 to 53 inclusive, Motions Nos. 55 to 59 inclusive, Motion No. 61, Motions Nos. 64 to 100 inclusive, Motions Nos. 102 to 113 inclusive, Motions Nos. 115 and 117.

(1325)

[Translation]

Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot, BQ) moved:

Motion No. 118

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 261.

Motion No. 119

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 262.

Hon. Raymond Chan (for the Minister of Finance) moved:

Motion No. 120

That Bill C-70, in Clause 262, be amended by

(a) replacing lines 11 and 12 on page 359 with the following:

``province out of amounts received in a fiscal year under Part IX of the Excise Tax Act''

(b) replacing line 30 on page 359 with the following:

``of amounts received in a fiscal year under Part IX of the Excise Tax Act to a person''

(c) replacing line 41 on page 359 with the following:

``advance out of amounts received in a fiscal year under Part IX of the Excise Tax Act''

Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot, BQ) moved:

Motion No. 121

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 263.

Motion No. 122

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 264.

Motion No. 123

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 265.

Motion No. 124

That Bill C-70 be amended by deleting Clause 266.

He said: Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to the third group of motions regarding Bill C-70 and the so-called harmonization agreement between the federal government and three Maritime provinces, and I am referring to the harmonization of federal and provincial sales tax.

When we talk about harmonization, the subject of this third group of motions, we think about harmony, which means everything is all right and unfolding as it should. It ``flies through the air with the greatest of ease'', but that is certainly not the case with this bill.

In January, when many of my Liberal colleagues were still on the slopes, the finance committee was sitting, and for three days, only three days, it invited representatives from the Maritimes to appear before Liberal, Bloc and Reform members. The government wanted to rush this bill through. It wanted to silence the opposition. I must say that in three days we got a very interesting sample of opposition, even from the Maritimes, to the proposed harmonization of the GST.

One major witness, the Retail Council of Canada, whose members are responsible for 65 per cent of the retail trade, told us that this policy, this Bill C-70, should be scrapped.

They were not against harmonization, far from it. In Quebec, we saw the advantages as far back as 1991, when we harmonized the sales tax with the federal GST, and since Quebec administers the GST on behalf of the federal government, we can hardly be against harmonization. We are in favour. However, the bill before the House today creates almost insurmountable problems for business.

One of those problems is including the tax in the price of the product. The provisions of the bill allow merchants some latitude on whether they want to include the tax or indicate it separately, include it directly or only on certain products, and there are any number of exceptions.

According to the Retail Council of Canada, we could have a situation where we would have four different ways of labelling the same product. How is the consumer supposed to find his way through this maze?

Furthermore, people may be completely confused as to the actual price of a product while the new system is being phased in by the three Maritime provinces, where merchants will have four months to comply with the new sales tax legislation.

(1330)

I think that anyone would be foolish to include the tax in his prices, because these prices will not look very competitive. There are quite a few problems here.

According to the Retail Council of Canada, phasing in the new system will cost about $100 million. That is not exactly peanuts for merchants in the three Maritime provinces. It will cost merchants $100 million for additional adjustments and $90 million annually to administer the new price structure, the new system that will be applied in these three provinces.

During those three days, we heard some highly interesting testimony from representatives of companies, not small ones, but

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very big Canadian companies which do business in all of the provinces. Sears Canada, for example, made the following comment on this bill: ``The use of prices which incorporate the tax in a partially harmonized system will mean higher costs and more complex systems for Canadian retailers''.

Sears has a catalogue shopping system, as you probably know. It will produce 52 million catalogues in 1997. The production of ``harmonized'' catalogues, to fit in with the so-called harmonized system in the Maritimes, will cost Sears a fortune.

We heard from other witnesses such as Canadian Tire, and I shall take the liberty of quoting their opposition to the government's plan and to the terrible complications imposed on them when it comes to pricing and stock management. To quote Canadian Tire:

[English]

``We are opposed to the piecemeal approach to the application of tax included pricing as part of the introduction of the new HST. This would create very significant ongoing costs as well as extreme confusion to our customers. There are no savings. In fact, there are increased costs''.

[Translation]

This is a quote from Canadian Tire's brief. There are companies like Canadian Tire and Sears Canada, and other major companies, which do business everywhere in Canada and have to prepare shipments of products to branch stores from a centralized product source. They will have terrible problems in managing various products that will then need to be shipped out to branches.

Canadian Tire, for example, will be forced to divide its huge central warehouse into two parts: one for the products destined for the three Maritime provinces where harmonization is planned and one for those destined for the rest of Canada, as the price labels will be different. Products will have to be stocked specifically for the three Maritime provinces, where an agreement has been signed which makes no sense.

Imagine, companies already find it complicated and expensive enough to handle their stocks, and now they are going to have a dual stock system imposed upon them, for goods to be shipped to the Maritimes and goods shipped to other provinces, a dual pricing and labelling system and, what is more, the three Maritime provinces will have complete leeway in the way they do their price labelling. Let me tell you, we are not out of the woods yet.

That is why these major companies have made representations to the finance committee. Others could have as well, but could not afford to come to Ottawa. There are other small businesses opposed to this bill. They have asked that application of the bill be deferred, because it is not manageable, is more costly to businesses, and is a complex system such as has never been seen anywhere else in the world. What is more, instead of making consumers' lives easier, it makes the system more confusing. We are no longer in the good old days at the beginning of this century.

(1335)

Why do the members of the government not recognize that to err is human and that they may have made a mistake in this agreement with the maritimes? When they realize they made a mistake-this is what we teach young children when they start to understand common sense-we are prepared to forgive them. But they have to take the agreement, tear it up and stop muddling things up with their total incompetence. It makes no sense.

Even in the maritimes, even with a gift of $1 billion, they oppose it. They totally disagree with this way of handling the GST where $1 billion of their tax money is spent to compensate the governments of the three maritime provinces in order to make the Minister of Finance look good and to get the government out of a mess. When we get to the point where, even with a gift like this, the people in the maritimes are saying that the bill is stupid, we have to listen to them.

It is not only the nasty separatists, as the slugs opposite keep saying daily, it is a matter of common sense and good economic management, of giving business every opportunity to perform in an increasingly competitive world and, above all, of making consumers' lives easier. Although this bill is supposed to simplify their lives, it shamelessly complicates them.

[English]

Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise once again and speak to Bill C-70. We continue to have grave concerns about Bill C-70, and I, once again, will run through some of those major concerns.

The reason it is important that the Reform Party take time to run through some of the great concerns Canadians have about Bill C-70 is because the Liberal Party representatives from Atlantic Canada have failed to rise to their feet to defend the people of Atlantic Canada. As I pointed out before, this whole thing came about with the understanding that the GST would be eliminated, that we would not have a GST once the Liberals came to power.

Although the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister denied it after they made the promises, unfortunately for them, television cameras do not lie, videotape does not lie and they were found out. They were revealed to have made promises to get rid of the GST. They had to concoct a wild scheme to try to convince Canadians that the GST was going to disappear. All they did, as members well know, is come up with a billion dollars to bribe Liberal Atlantic Canadian premiers to come on board.

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From that sorry beginning, we are once again in a situation where the people of Atlantic Canada are being denied the chance to hold Liberal members of Parliament accountable for a promise. I want to touch on that in a little more detail.

During the finance committee hearings, witnesses came from across the country but in particular from Atlantic Canada. Those witnesses asked why the hearings could not be held in Atlantic Canada. As this legislation has such a profound effect on Atlantic Canada, why did the finance committee not take the time to go to Atlantic Canada to hear from real live Atlantic Canadians?

A handful of people did come from Atlantic Canada, but not everybody can give up a day to come to Ottawa to tell the government their story. These people made the point rather well that in a democracy, people should have the right to representation before taxation, at least the right to consultation before the government bulldozes ahead and implements a taxation system that nobody asked for and nobody wanted. That is a basic right.

(1340 )

It was not very long ago that all kinds of GST rallies were held across the country, where people were protesting the imposition of the GST. Maybe Mr. Speaker was involved in them at one time. I have no idea. People across the country were very upset and protested what the Tories were doing. Indeed, the Liberals made tremendous gains by saying that they would never, ever bring in a tax of that kind that nobody wants. And the people said with one voice: ``Don't you dare do that''.

Part of the reason that the Tories disappeared off the political landscape was because they brought in a tax that nobody wanted, that people did not ask for. The people felt they were not being represented. Consequently, the Tories were reduced to a mere two seats in the House of Commons.

As Yogi Berra would say: ``It is deja vu all over again''. The Liberals are bringing in a tax they said they hated, that they would scrap and kill. They have thrown $1 billion at the problem to try and fix it. That did not work. Now we are in a situation where they are denying the people of Atlantic Canada the right to have a say on a tax that will fundamentally affect them.

During the hearings a number of provincial politicians appeared before us. Members would acknowledge that it is really quite unusual to have a number of provincial politicians appear before a committee to protest something that is going to take place in their regions. They had to come to Ottawa was because the Liberals would not allow hearings in Atlantic Canada on a tax that is going to affect those people. The fact that these prominent citizens took the time and effort to come to Atlantic Canada speaks volumes. It says something about the lack of representation that the people of Atlantic Canada are getting from their Liberal MPs. They would not be forced to send provincial representatives to Ottawa if the MPs in Ottawa would stand up for them. But they are completely silent.

In Atlantic Canada where unemployment is a curse that has plagued that region for a generation, we heard witness after witness say that the new harmonization legislation was going force businesses to close.

One gentleman came before us and said that he had already closed eight or nine stores in New Brunswick at a cost of approximately 72 jobs. A witness representing Carleton Cards said 19 stores would be closed. He did not put any caveat on it. If this legislation came in, 19 stores would be closed, again affecting a number of jobs.

We heard from a gentleman from Woolworths Canada that has 125 stores in Atlantic Canada who told us Woolworths could possibly close as many as 30 stores in Atlantic Canada if the legislation came in.

Unbelievably, these people had to come to Ottawa. They could not talk to their local representatives. They could not talk to the Liberal MPs because the MPs could not talk to the finance minister. They could not get their message across. In other words, they were not doing their jobs. To date I have yet to hear one Liberal MP from Atlantic Canada stand and list the concerns of Atlantic Canadians with respect to the harmonization legislation.

If anyone had sat in on the meetings of the finance committee two weeks ago they would know that there are tremendous concerns with this legislation. People are concerned it will kill jobs, close down businesses, create higher prices, less selection for the people of Atlantic Canada. This legislation will have a profound impact on people with low or fixed incomes.

A great debate is raging in the country about child poverty and the government is proposing to put through legislation that will drive up costs on items like gasoline, home heating fuel and utilities. The poorest people in Atlantic Canada simply cannot afford to bear the disproportionate burden that the HST will mean to them when the legislation is implemented.

(1345 )

The point again is that there has been a profound lack of representation from Liberal MPs for people in Atlantic Canada. It has been a dereliction of duty. There have been a number of editorials written in Atlantic Canadian newspapers about the fact that there were not hearings there and that Atlantic Canadian MPs have not been standing up for their constituents.

I just hope that over the course of this debate Liberal MPs across the way have gotten the point, that when they come to Ottawa they are not given their $63,000 so they can sit across the way and shout names, but that they have a job to do. They have a job to do in terms of representing their constituents, to go out and hear what they have to say in the first place and to encourage the finance committee and other committees to visit there when there are bills which

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concern that area, and finally to deliver the message to their own government.

We do not come to this place just to collect our salaries, or in the case of the Liberals their MP pensions. We come to the House of Commons to represent our constituents, something the Liberal MPs have completely failed to do with respect to the harmonization legislation.

[Translation]

Mr. Maurice Bernier (Mégantic-Compton-Stanstead, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to take part in this debate, which has not surprisingly attracted a great deal of interest. I would first like to address a very important aspect of wanting to bring in the sort of reform being proposed in Bill C-70, the bill dealing with the GST. I want to talk about the confidence the public must have in our institutions if the decisions the government takes are to become reality.

As I have said, this element of trust is a basic principle in many of our institutions, particularly in the area of taxation. We know that it is a basic principle of tax law that a citizen must file his tax return, and it is presumed that this return is accurate until proven otherwise.

The same is true in the justice system. A person is considered innocent until proven guilty. This principle also applies here in the House, where our rules of procedure prevent us from calling a colleague a liar, and require us to presume, particularly during oral question period, that when a minister gives a reply, he is telling the truth.

Clearly, this element of trust is a fundamental part of our institutions. Unfortunately, when it comes to this extremely important bill, the element of trust is missing. It is missing, and this will have enormous consequences, because members of the public, who are watching us and who must suffer the terrible effects of this bill, will quite rightly rebel, because they do not have confidence in our institutions or in the elected officials who must make decisions.

They have many reasons for expressing this lack of trust. I will give a few well known examples still in the public eye right now. There is the Airbus affair, which has shown us the Minister of Justice tangled up in something that looks more like a settling of political accounts than a real case that supposedly needed clarification.

(1350)

The reputation of former Prime Minister Mulroney was attacked. The current Prime Minister and Minister of Justice got so deep into trouble that, on the advice of their own solicitors, they eventually made amends and apologized. After dickering for months and wasting millions of taxpayers' dollars in legal fees, they ended up apologizing, saying that a mistake had been made in the Airbus affair and that former Prime Minister Mulroney not only had done nothing wrong but that his conduct should never have been called into question.

The same thing is happening in the tainted blood scandal, with the Krever commission. Documents were destroyed. Obviously, the commission can no longer have access to these documents and use them to make recommendations in its upcoming report.

The same thing is also happening with the Somalia inquiry. The defence minister has just put an end to the mandate of the Létourneau commission, in a highhanded way, in my opinion. He has just decided that the hearings would have to be completed by the end of March and that the commission would have to submit its report by the end of June. However, several witnesses have yet to be heard, and the public is convinced that more remains unknown than known.

These examples show the impact of trust in our institutions, or the lack of it. This is why Canadians no longer believe in their representatives and, more often than not, are cynical about the electoral and political processes. This threatens the future of our institutions.

Bill C-70 is a case in point. During the last election campaign, the Prime Minister himself, the Deputy Prime Minister and all the Liberal candidates kept repeating that they would scrap the GST. Not only was the GST not scrapped, but it was maintained and, through Bill C-70, it will be made even worse. The bill establishes two tax systems: one for the maritime provinces and one for the rest of Canada. This is unbelievable.

This will destroy the confidence that is so necessary for our institutions. Mr. Speaker, you are impartial, but I am convinced that your Liberal colleagues think this is all a figment of my imagination. They think I am making these comments just because I belong to the Bloc Quebecois, the official opposition, and must therefore criticize the government. They say we are trying to destroy the Liberal government's good image every chance we get.

Be that as it may, yesterday, a Gallup poll showed that 29 per cent of Quebecers believe the Prime Minister of Canada and member for Saint-Maurice is doing a good job. Merely 29 per cent of the people in Quebec believe he is doing a good job. This means that 71 per cent believe he is not doing a good job. Therefore, the people do not have confidence in the Prime Minister and his government. In Quebec, in the upcoming election, once again, the people will express this lack of confidence in the Liberal government by re-electing members of the Bloc Quebecois.

(1355)

Hopefully the Bloc Quebecois' performance will reflect the people's lack of confidence in the government expressed in this poll. I have no doubt that the people of Quebec are fully aware of the bad, unfortunate decisions made by this government, which will adversely affect our fellow citizens in their daily lives. Just

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think of the unemployed, whose benefits have been cut every year since the Liberals came to office, just to reduce the deficit.

I will close by saying that, these past few years, not only did the Bloc Quebecois denounce bad decisions-and we will keep doing so for the rest of this government's mandate-but we also proposed major changes which, if implemented, would improve our tax system.

Lastly, I would like to acknowledge the outstanding work done by our colleague, the hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot, with the help of the hon. member for Anjou-Rivière-des-Prairies and the hon. member for La Prairie, so they could table a second report this week. This is unprecedented in Canadian history. I see that Liberal members agree. This is a precedent; the official opposition tabled a realistic, practical tax reform proposal.

[English]

The Speaker: Colleagues, I am going to recognize the member for Prince George-Bulkley Valley. You, sir, will have the floor when we return after question period. Rather than interrupt your no doubt formidable speech, with your permission I will go to statements by members.

_____________________________________________

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STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS

[English]

THE LATE CHARLES MUNRO

Mr. John Finlay (Oxford, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I want to offer my condolences to the family and friends of Mr. Charles Munro of Embro who passed away on January 17.

Charlie Munro was one of Oxford county's outstanding dairy farmers. He represented and fought for the farmers of Oxford and Canada as a member of local, national and international farm groups.

Charlie served as president of both the Ontario and Canadian Federations of Agriculture. From 1972 to 1974 he served as president of the International Federation of Agriculture in Paris, France. Charlie was also a recipient of the Canada Centennial Medal and was inducted into the Ontario Agricultural Hall of Fame in 1994.

No matter where Charlie's service took him, he always had the people of Oxford in his thoughts and in his heart. Oxford and Canada have lost one of their best.

Au revoir mon ami. We will remember you.

[Translation]

AMATEUR SPORT

Mr. Maurice Dumas (Argenteuil-Papineau, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I would like to pay tribute to the excellence of two young athletes from the riding of Argenteuil-Papineau.

Émilie Cousineau and Philip Devey, both from Lachute, have distinguished themselves in sports. The hope of the Quebec women's downhill ski team, Émilie finished first in the slalom at the Québec-Kandahar competition recently held at Mont-Tremblant.

In baseball, Philip Devey was named Quebec's pitcher of the year at the 1996 Meritas gala. He has landed the spot of fifth starter in the lineup on Southwestern Louisiana University's baseball team next season.

All young athletes in Quebec and in Canada deserve our praise. We must encourage and support them so that they can attain their goals and realize their dreams. It is with this in mind that I wish the best of success to the two young athletes from Argenteuil-Papineau, Émilie Cousineau and Philip Devey.

* * *

[English]

HEALTH CARE

Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca, Ref.): Mr. Speaker, hurt number one on Liberal health care. Let us look at one British Columbia hospital's experience with the Liberals' version of publicly funded health care.

It is February 4 and as usual there are no beds available in the hospital. Eight out of 13 emergency room bays are occupied by s

CONTENTS

HOUSE OF COMMONS

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Prayers

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ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

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GOVERNMENT ORDERS

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STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS

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