37th Parliament, 1st Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 064
CONTENTS
Thursday, May 17, 2001
1005
| GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Public accounts
|
| Mr. John Williams |
| Bill C-25
|
| Mr. Charles Hubbard |
| Library of parliament
|
| Mr. Raymond Lavigne |
| KANESATAKE INTERIM LAND BASE GOVERNANCE ACT
|
| Bill S-24. First reading
|
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Library of parliament
|
| Motion for concurrence
|
| Mr. Raymond Lavigne |
| PETITIONS
|
| Census Records
|
| Mr. Murray Calder |
1010
| QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| SUPPLY
|
| Allotted Day—Drugs
|
| Mr. Randy White |
| Motion
|
1015
1020
1025
1030
| Mr. Réal Ménard |
1035
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
| Hon. David Kilgour |
1040
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
| Mr. John Maloney |
1045
1050
1055
| Amendment
|
| Mr. Randy White |
1100
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
1105
| Mr. Réal Ménard |
1110
1115
1120
| Mr. Randy White |
1125
1130
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Procedure and House Affairs
|
| Mr. Grant Hill |
| Motion
|
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| SUPPLY
|
| Allotted Day—Drugs
|
| Motion
|
| Mr. Dick Proctor |
1135
1140
1145
| Mr. Vic Toews |
1150
| Hon. David Kilgour |
1155
| Mr. Randy White |
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
1200
1205
1210
1215
1220
| Mr. Dick Proctor |
| Mr. Vic Toews |
1225
1230
1235
1240
| Mr. John Maloney |
1245
1250
| Mr. Werner Schmidt |
1255
| Hon. Allan Rock |
1300
1305
1310
| Mr. Randy White |
1315
| Mr. Lynn Myers |
1320
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
1325
| Mr. Larry Spencer |
1330
1335
1340
| Mr. Lynn Myers |
1345
| Mr. Werner Schmidt |
1350
| Mr. Randy White |
1355
| Mr. Lynn Myers |
| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
| CANADIAN RANGERS
|
| Mr. Jean-Guy Carignan |
1400
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Mr. David Anderson |
| GOVERNMENT OF BRITISH COLUMBIA
|
| Mr. John Harvard |
| OLYMPIC GAMES
|
| Mr. Irwin Cotler |
| GOVERNMENT OF NEW BRUNSWICK
|
| Mr. Andy Savoy |
| GOVERNMENT OF BRITISH COLUMBIA
|
| Mrs. Betty Hinton |
1405
| SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
|
| Mr. Larry McCormick |
| BERNADETTE RENAUD
|
| Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
| SPIELO GAMING INTERNATIONAL
|
| Mr. Dominic LeBlanc |
| JESSICA KOOPMANS
|
| Mr. Ken Epp |
| BRAIN TUMOURS
|
| Mr. Joseph Volpe |
1410
| CAPE BRETONERS
|
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
| JEAN BESRÉ AWARD
|
| Mr. Serge Cardin |
| THE ECONOMY
|
| Mr. John McCallum |
| PENSION PLANS
|
| Mr. Norman Doyle |
1415
| EMPLOYMENT
|
| Ms. Sophia Leung |
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
| THE ECONOMY
|
| Mr. Stockwell Day |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| Mr. Stockwell Day |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| Mr. Stockwell Day |
1420
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| OFFICIAL LANGUAGES
|
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
1425
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| THE ECONOMY
|
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
1430
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| Mr. Scott Brison |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| Mr. Scott Brison |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| JUSTICE
|
| Mr. Vic Toews |
| Hon. Lawrence MacAulay |
| Mr. Vic Toews |
| Hon. Lawrence MacAulay |
| OFFICIAL LANGUAGES
|
| Mrs. Pauline Picard |
1435
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| Mrs. Pauline Picard |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| JUSTICE
|
| Mr. Randy White |
| Hon. Lawrence MacAulay |
| Mr. Randy White |
| Hon. Lawrence MacAulay |
| OFFICIAL LANGUAGES
|
| Mr. Benoît Sauvageau |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| Mr. Benoît Sauvageau |
1440
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| IMMIGRATION
|
| Mr. Inky Mark |
| Hon. Elinor Caplan |
| Mr. Inky Mark |
| Hon. Elinor Caplan |
| HEALTH
|
| Ms. Beth Phinney |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| THE ENVIRONMENT
|
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
1445
| POVERTY
|
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| IMMIGRATION
|
| Mr. John Herron |
| Hon. Elinor Caplan |
| NATIONAL DEFENCE
|
| Mr. Gerald Keddy |
| Hon. Art Eggleton |
| HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
|
| Mr. John Williams |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| TREASURY BOARD
|
| Mr. John Williams |
1450
| Hon. Lucienne Robillard |
| PARENTAL LEAVE
|
| Mr. Paul Crête |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Paul Crête |
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| CANADIAN HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION
|
| Mr. Keith Martin |
| Mr. John Maloney |
| Mr. Keith Martin |
| Mr. John Maloney |
1455
| BOATING SAFETY
|
| Ms. Aileen Carroll |
| Hon. Herb Dhaliwal |
| ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Reed Elley |
| Hon. Robert Nault |
| Mr. Reed Elley |
| Hon. Robert Nault |
| YOUNG OFFENDERS
|
| Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire |
| Mr. John Maloney |
| JUSTICE
|
| Mr. Stephen Owen |
| Mr. John Maloney |
1500
| Mr. Vic Toews |
| Hon. Lawrence MacAulay |
| MINING INDUSTRY
|
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
| Hon. Ralph Goodale |
| PRESENCE IN GALLERY
|
| The Speaker |
| BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
|
| Mr. John Reynolds |
| Hon. Alfonso Gagliano |
1505
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| SUPPLY
|
| Allotted Day—Drugs
|
| Motion
|
| Mr. Lynn Myers |
1510
| Ms. Sophia Leung |
1515
| Mr. Gurmant Grewal |
1520
1525
1530
| Mr. Reed Elley |
1535
1540
| Mr. Grant Hill |
| Mr. Werner Schmidt |
1545
| Mr. Derek Lee |
1550
1555
1600
1605
| Mr. Werner Schmidt |
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
1610
| Mr. Chuck Cadman |
1615
| Mr. Werner Schmidt |
1620
1625
1630
1635
| Ms. Aileen Carroll |
1640
1645
| Mr. Jim Abbott |
1650
1655
| Mr. Chuck Cadman |
1700
| Mr. Grant Hill |
1705
1710
1715
| PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
| CANADA MARINE ACT
|
| Bill C-253. Second reading
|
| Mr. Paul Crête |
1720
1725
1730
| Mr. Brent St. Denis |
1735
1740
| Mr. Joe Comartin |
1745
| Mr. Norman Doyle |
1750
1755
| Mr. Antoine Dubé |
1800
1805
| Mr. Paul Crête |
1810
| ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
|
| Lumber Industry
|
| Mr. Gerald Keddy |
1815
| Mr. Pat O'Brien |
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 064
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Thursday, May 17, 2001
The House met at 10 a.m.
Prayers
1005
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 36(8) I have the honour to table, in
both official languages, the government's response to four
petitions.
* * *
[Translation]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS
Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I
have the honour to present, in both official languages, the
fifth report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts
relating to chapter 11 of the October 2000 Report of the Auditor
General of Canada, “Human Resources Development Canada: Grants
and Contributions”, and the sixth report of the Standing
Committee on Public Accounts relating to chapter 14 of the
October 2000 Report of the Auditor General of Canada, “Canadian
International Development Agency: Managing Contracts and
Contribution Agreements”.
Pursuant to Standing Order 109, the committee requests that the
government table a comprehensive response to these two reports.
[English]
BILL C-25
Mr. Charles Hubbard (Miramichi, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have the honour to present, in both official languages, the first
report on Bill C-25, an act to amend the Farm Credit Corporation
Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts, without
amendment.
I would like to thank the members of our committee for their
attention and due diligence in considering this legislation and
bringing it back to parliament.
[Translation]
LIBRARY OF PARLIAMENT
Mr. Raymond Lavigne (Verdun—Saint-Henri—Saint-Paul—Pointe
Saint-Charles, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present,
in both official languages, the first report of the Standing
Joint Committee on the Library of Parliament.
With leave of the House, I intend to move for concurrence in
this report later this day.
* * *
[English]
KANESATAKE INTERIM LAND BASE GOVERNANCE ACT
Hon. Allan Rock (for Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development) moved that Bill S-24, an act to implement an
agreement between the Mohawks of Kanesatake and Her Majesty in
right of Canada respecting governance of certain lands by the
Mohawks of Kanesatake and to amend an act in consequence, be read
the first time.
(Motion agreed to and bill read the first time)
* * *
[Translation]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
LIBRARY OF PARLIAMENT
Mr. Raymond Lavigne (Verdun—Saint-Henri—Saint-Paul—Pointe
Saint-Charles, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, with leave of the House, I
move that the first report of the Standing Joint Committee on
the Library of Parliament, presented to the House earlier this
day, be concurred in.
(Motion agreed to)
* * *
[English]
PETITIONS
CENSUS RECORDS
Mr. Murray Calder (Dufferin—Peel—Wellington—Grey,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise to present another petition to the
House calling for the release of historic census records to the
public. The petition is signed by more than 5,500 Canadians.
Combined with the signatures of the previous petitions that I
have presented on this subject in this session of parliament, the
total number is now over 9,000.
1010
The petition points out that an estimated 7.5 million Canadians
are engaged in the pursuit of their family history and that
census records are a valuable tool for such research. The
records have been used in historical research, for tracing
genetic diseases and in settling wills and estates.
The petitioners are calling upon parliament to take whatever
steps are necessary to retroactively amend confidentiality
clauses of the Statistics Act since 1906 to allow the release to
the public, after a reasonable period of time, the post 1901
census records.
* * *
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I ask
that all questions be allowed to stand.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
SUPPLY
ALLOTTED DAY—DRUGS
Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Canadian Alliance)
moved:
That a special committee of the
House be appointed to consider the factors underlying or
relating to the non-medical use of drugs in Canada and make
recommendations with respect to the ways or means by which
the government can act, alone or in its relations with
governments at other levels, in the reduction of the
dimensions of the problem involved in such use;
That the membership of the committee be established by the
Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs;
That the Standing Committee report the membership of the
special committee to the House within five sitting days
after the adoption of this motion;
That substitutions may be made from time to time, if
required, in the manner provided for in Standing Order
114(2);
That the committee shall have all of the powers granted to
Standing Committees in Standing Order 108; and
That the committee shall present its final report no later
that June 1, 2002.
He said: Mr. Speaker, it is a privilege to speak today to the
motion and to get it to the floor of the House of Commons. It
has been about eight years, since 1993, that I have been very
close to this issue and have wanted to get it to the House.
When I look back at the record of the House of Commons I find
there actually has not been a debate in the House on drugs for
decades. That concerns me, particularly because of the advance
stage of concern from parents and virtually everyone in the
country about drugs.
The reason we are asking for a special committee is that it is
time the House of Commons, on a non-partisan basis, organized
itself to go across the country to the small towns, villages and
cities and to hold hearings here in the House of Commons to get
people together and assess how difficult the situation is today.
I can assure members that I will let them know just how
difficult it is from my perspective. As I say, I have been
involved with this for some time.
Some have said that there is a Senate committee looking at this
issue, but it is actually only looking at the issue of cannabis.
What I am talking about here is assessing the non-medical use of
drugs, such as heroin, cocaine, ecstasy and LSD, the kinds of
drugs that are addicting our young people.
The important thing I want to emphasize is this committee and
its make-up. The committee should be made up of members of all
parties of the House. They should be members who want to
consistently be involved in the committee on a longer term basis
with other members who have an avid interest in the issue. They
should be individuals who are somewhat compatible, regardless of
philosophical beliefs or politics. They should be compatible on
the issues and the understanding of drugs themselves.
1015
I do not doubt that this will take a lot of time and work but we
have to deal with the issue, and I will show the House why.
I want to relate how drug use is growing in our country. The
results were astonishing in a particular study I was recently
looking at, the Ontario student drug use survey that has been
done biannually since 1977. It indicated that between 1997 and
1999 the use of some drugs almost tripled. The percentage of
students who said they could not stop using drugs soared from
2.9% to 6.5%. That was in Ontario schools.
With cannabis the percentage peaked at 31.7% in 1979 and then
fell for the next six surveys to 11% in 1991. Since then usage
has soared, reaching 24.9% in 1997. We can see that is
increasing.
Cocaine use has been tracked since 1977 and crack cocaine has
been tracked since 1987. While cocaine peaked in 1979 at 5.1%
and then fell, only to rise again, crack cocaine usage has
increased steadily. Cocaine usage rose sharply in 1999 to 3.7%
in Ontario schools. That is concerning.
I can tell the House that 36% of students in 1999 said that
someone had tried to sell them drugs in the last year and 32%
said they observed someone selling drugs. That is in our
schools.
I was in a school not too long ago where three students in one
behavioural class admitted to being heroin users. That is
concerning. It is such an addictive drug that these young people
will end up stealing, robbing, prostituting or doing whatever
they can to get the drug. Those are our children. That is why
the motion is important.
I have here Canada's drug strategy. It was produced by the
current government. I looked at the particular strategy and I
compared it with the strategy done by the previous Progressive
Conservative government. I think both governments, in all
fairness, tried their very best to assess the drug situation at
the time and perhaps had the bureaucracy write the strategy.
I actually took this strategy to the streets, to people working
with drug addicts and to drug addicts themselves. I asked them
about the strategy. They had no idea what I was talking about
and quite frankly told me that it did not affect their daily
lives.
When we compare the strategies it is really interesting. I ask
all colleagues who are interested in this subject to compare the
strategy produced in 1987 by the Progressive Conservative
government with the strategy produced by the Liberal government.
I am not trying in any way to discredit either government. I am
just relating that perhaps the bureaucracy has this idea about
drug strategy.
In 1987 the goal or the overall objective of the drug strategy
of the government of the day was to reduce harm to individuals.
In 1998 this strategy by a different government but by the same
bureaucracy said that the long term goal of Canada's drug
strategy was to reduce the harm associated with alcohol and
drugs.
Between 1987 and 1998 a whole bunch of things happened regarding
drug use. It became worse and there were more manufactured drugs
in the country, but virtually the same document has been produced
by the same bureaucracy but by different governments. I do not
think this is getting to the bottom of the issue.
1020
Let me talk about the comprehensive framework. In 1987 the
bureaucracy of the day said this was a multifaceted response to a
complex issue. It said that the most important things were
education and prevention. In 1998 the government and its
bureaucracy said that it was a comprehensive framework and that
the most important things were prevention and education.
In 1987 they said we needed enforcement and control. In 1998
they said we needed legislation, enforcement and control. In
1987 they said we needed treatment and rehabilitation. In 1998
they said we needed treatment and rehabilitation, and on it goes.
It is an overlay, an absolute overlay from 1987 to 1998. Yet
the problem is probably three to four times worse. What I am
getting at is that I do not see improvement. We have to put
together a committee in the House and we to get on the streets
where the problem is. We have to come back here on a
non-partisan basis and say that we have to take the following
action. It is not to write a drug strategy like the one that has
been the same for 10 years with a poor outcome.
I have been many places in my day. One of the worst times in my
life since I have been a member of parliament is when I was on
the streets watching a young 13 or 14 year old shooting heroin
between her toes because there was no other place on her arms or
elsewhere to put the needle. That kid is likely dead today. That
child was somebody's child. We forgot her.
There are many other children like her out there. Today we are
arresting prostitutes one after another, treating them like
criminals rather than victims of a very harsh drug trade where
the profiteers at the top are making a lot at the expense of the
young kids at the bottom.
One night I was on shift with a police force when we arrested
four prostitutes. The oldest was 16. They were arrested, booked
and let back out on the streets. Before I finished my shift one
of them was back out on the street, on the corner. She stayed
there because there was no consequence to just being arrested.
These kids need a shot of heroin. This cannot continue.
I have a lot of police reports. The police give me a lot of
reports on things that go on. I want to give a few examples of
efforts to smuggle drugs into Canada. These are from
intelligence bulletins and, no, I will not tell anybody where I
got them. Ecstasy was seized from a female body packer at
Vancouver international airport. Inspectors seized 10,212
ecstasy tablets from a young woman arriving from Amsterdam. That
was on Friday, December 3, 1999.
On November 30, 1999, 23,057 tablets of ecstasy were hidden in
socks at Vancouver international airport. On November 4, 1999,
104,000 tablets of ecstasy were seized at Vancouver international
airport from two Israeli nationals arriving on KLM flight 681
from Amsterdam. On August 18, 1999, 33 kilos of cocaine were
seized on the Pacific coast highway commercial corridor from
people from California.
I have pages and books of this stuff. Surely everybody
listening gets the point. It is out of control. I am not
talking about catching everybody involved in drugs, locking them
up, throwing away the key and starting a war on drugs. To some
extent the Americans are on the wrong track by doing this.
1025
I am talking about assessing the state of drug use in the
nation, the state of our children in schools, the state of
prostitution on the streets, and the state of parents from whom I
receive calls practically on a daily basis. They ask if I can
help them get their child out of a crack house or out of a
province and into another province, into a facility for drug
rehabilitation and detox.
We do not even have enough detox facilities to look after a
small percentage of the addicts in our country. For goodness'
sake, there are almost 8,000 heroin addicts in Vancouver alone
who shoot up every day at $20 a cap. Every one of them has to
earn the money to get heroin five to eight times a day. They are
stealing and robbing from people. They are prostituting
themselves. That is only one city.
There have been 147 deaths from overdoses this year in Vancouver
alone. These were someone's children or someone's parents. If
they were raped and murdered there would be a sex offender
registry in two seconds. If they were shot with a gun or driven
over by a drunk driver this place would be erupting with new
legislation.
We are pleading for all parties to look at the issue on a
non-partisan basis now and not over the next five years. Let us
give it a year but study it thoroughly and come back to the House
to take some concrete action.
The reality is that the drug strategies appear to be a failure.
There is no point coming here and ragging on any government about
drug strategies. The people who really need help are not
interested in reading a drug strategy that does not go to the
streets.
I have been involved in a needle exchange that gives out needles
to some addicts, not all of them. It gave out 1.5 million
needles last year to drug addicts in one facility. I have seen
the needle exchange in Sydney, Nova Scotia. Who would have ever
thought this could happen in a small place such as Sydney?
Right now my community of Abbotsford is debating the issue of
whether there should be a needle exchange. We can reserve
opinion on the effectiveness of a needle exchange and safe shoot
up sites. They were talking about that in Vancouver yesterday.
We do not have to get into whether it is right or wrong right
now, but we have to get into how Sydney, Nova Scotia, and small
towns in the country are into these exchanges. Why is it? How
big will it get?
My colleague tells me there are about 4,000 to 5,000 people in
Stellarton, Nova Scotia. Recent information highlighting a
growing drug problem among Stellarton's youth is prompting the
town's police commission to seek government funding to help pay
for a new drug enforcement officer. The town's drug problems
came to the fore following a recent news report highlighting an
incident involving an 11 year old Stellarton girl who was
discovered by police to be carrying 140 tablets of a street drug.
This is happening with an 11 year old kid, and we sit in the
House debating some legislation that the average person on the
street does not give two hoots about. It is not just Stellarton.
It is all over the country and we are closing our eyes to it.
1030
There are a lot of things this committee has to look at. I
believe we will get, if not unanimous consent, majority consent
to establish this committee. I am begging the House to have the
committee, on a non-partisan basis, get down to looking at the
issue on the streets. We should forget the bureaucrats who sit
in high buildings. Let us get down on the streets and figure out
how to fix this thing.
I have a litany of problems here with regard to the judicial
system. I have here case upon case of individuals trafficking in
$300,000 to $400,000 worth of drugs who get caught and get
suspended sentences or conditional sentences. There are
individuals with better than 60 convictions. They go into our
courts and they come out of our courts. They sell drugs, they
buy drugs, they trade drugs, they make money and they go into our
courts and come out of our courts. Meanwhile our children become
addicted and these individuals get rich. The justice system just
drags along real slowly and the police say “What do you want us
to do?”
I have stood by with police and talked to people who are in this
country illegally. One was smoking a marijuana joint while he
was talking to us because he knew nothing would happen to him. I
am not here to debate whether marijuana is a good thing or a bad
thing. I am here to try to establish some action. I sincerely
hope that if we establish the committee we will have people on
the committee who truly care about the issue and will truly do
something.
Finally, I want to thank all of those people listening and
watching who have some concern for this matter. I hope that they
too will write to members of parliament in the House of Commons
and say that we have to take some action in this country. I say
please, on behalf of our children, on behalf of the tens of
thousands who are addicted in this country, let us take some
action and do something positive for a change.
[Translation]
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I wish
to inform my colleague that, as a party, we are going to support
this motion.
We share his feeling that it is high time parliamentarians
addressed the issue of drug use and its connection with other
problems.
The question I wish to ask my colleague is this: Has he heard of
the harm reduction model? This is an intervention framework in
place in Vancouver and in Quebec, which provides needle exchange
sites.
This approach is based on the principle that, before people can
get clean, they need a support process and that this must
involve providing the safest possible conditions for drug use.
That is why there are needle exchanges. Earlier, our colleague
gave some figures that I took note of: 1.5 million needles in
his region. The same situation exists in Montreal.
In preparation for our future endeavours, I wish to indicate
immediately to him my interest in a committee of this type, an
interest I know is shared by the hon. member for
Rosemont—Petite-Patrie.
Does the hon. member believe that the first stage needs to be
based on the premise of harm reduction? Is he familiar with
this?
[English]
Mr. Randy White: Mr. Speaker, I am very familiar with the
concept of harm reduction. I do not want to limit the committee
by suggesting that it would proceed on the basis of a harm
reduction model.
I have a lot of questions about the harm reduction model. In
talking to hundreds of people about it, I have learned that there
are different understandings of what harm reduction is. That is
why we have to look at it. What does harm reduction mean?
1035
To some, harm reduction means not doing too much on the
enforcement side. It means that if people get involved in drugs
we reduce the harm by getting them into methadone treatments and
safe shooting up sites. There are many people who disagree with
safe shooting up sites, for instance, which Vancouver is
considering. When we talk about harm reduction, I do not think
there is a person here or anywhere else who can be consistent in
saying exactly what it means and how far we should go. To me
harm reduction is something whereby we ask how we can best deal
with an addict.
I am equally concerned about keeping people from becoming
addicted. I am equally concerned about individuals who are
trafficking in this and making profits on it. It is a complex
issue, but I will reserve opinions as to whether or not harm
reduction is, first, defined and, second, acceptable, until I get
into this personally and see what this committee will do with
itself.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, I would like to commence by congratulating the hon.
member for Langley—Abbotsford. This is an issue that he has
long pursued and I know that his participation in the justice
committee reiterated his interest and his passion for seeking
solutions in this area.
The hon. member spoke of a place very near and dear to my heart,
Stellarton, Nova Scotia. I know that the chief of police there,
Ambrose Heighton, and others, including principal Jeff Green and
community members, have tried to aggressively attack this issue
of possession of very serious drugs in our community.
The young girl the hon. member mentioned in his remarks was in
possession of tablets of dilaudid, I think, which is a highly
addictive morphine-like drug that has become very prevalent and
is very available in communities in Pictou county and the nearby
areas.
My main concern, like his, is how we address this in a broad
fashion. It will take the police, the education system and the
health professionals to address it. However, perhaps I am
looking for a more specific direction from him for this committee
and for any parameters he might suggest that we put in place. He
mentioned having a time limit of a year to report. Would this
include calling witnesses? Would it include bringing forward
some of these studies he has already alluded to as the basis for
this committee?
Mr. Randy White: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member knows full
well I have a great deal of respect for him. I think he is one
of the individuals the House needs on that committee.
In regard to the terms and conditions of the committee, a budget
would have to be established because there would have to be a
great deal of travel. I am not a big one to be travelling, but
the committee has to travel, and not only to the big cities. We
have to go to Stellarton and find out what the problem is, how it
is occurring and how to stop it. We must have the right people
on the committee, not too many but the right ones who are all of
the same frame of mind, and that is, how do we fix this? We have
to set out objectives. We must have a commitment from the House
that when the committee has its report it comes in here at least
for debate. The committee has to set other parameters as well,
which I do not think I have time to discuss here. I am willing
to discuss all of them.
Hon. David Kilgour (Secretary of State (Latin America and
Africa), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I know the hon. member is
extremely interested in this subject. It is very important for
all Canadians, or should be.
How many residents of Vancouver are dying every day or every
week? Is the hon. member able to tell us anything about that?
Does he have some country or some place in mind where there is an
effective strategy against drug abuse which he would like to
mention beyond what he has already said in his comments?
Mr. Randy White: Mr. Speaker, drug overdoses in Vancouver
alone average 147 yearly. Together in Toronto and Vancouver last
year there were over 400 deaths from drug overdose. This is
acute; that is just two cities.
1040
I would venture a guess that there are well over a thousand
overdoses a year in this country. Then again, that is what the
committee has to determine. How serious is this thing? Often in
little towns like mine there is a death from overdose but it is
not recorded that way. Some are and some are not. Perhaps
somebody on drugs was driving a car and killed himself. It is
very loosely defined.
In regard to other countries, I have read a lot about the
experiment in Holland. Some say it failed. Some say it was the
only way to deal with it. Some say it created a greater drug
trade in Europe. Other countries promote the drug trade. In
some of the southern countries, one of the main national incomes
is from drug exportation. In British Columbia, B.C. bud is
traded in large quantities to the south in return for money or
cocaine coming north.
I honestly have not read about a completely satisfactory
solution in any country. At least this committee should be able
to come back here and say whether the world has a problem or that
several countries seem to be addressing it better and we should
be focusing in that direction. However right now this country is
all over the map on the issue. Provinces and even cities are
tackling it in different ways. We have to do something better.
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, I want
the hon. member to know that I did a research paper with regard
to marijuana and exactly what it does to young people and people
of all ages. The research I did was out of Berkeley university.
I want the hon. member to know that the first marijuana cigarette
that anyone smokes goes into their brain cells, unlike an
ordinary cigarette, and remains there for nine days. We are all
aware that young people who get into the alleyways and start
smoking up do it more often than every nine days.
Just so the members know, about three or four years ago on
Christmas Eve a young man came to my door to tell me that his
mother and father wanted him to thank me for getting him out of
the alleyway and off cocaine.
I have been told that the hon. member and his party are in
favour of decriminalizing marijuana and making it available. I
want to know if that is true. Is that part of what this
committee is looking at? Is that part of what is being put on
the table?
Mr. Randy White: Mr. Speaker, that is categorically not
true.
The member should start looking at this not on a partisan basis
but in a way that would help our young people. I too was a
resident of Saint John, New Brunswick. I know the city fairly
well. They have drug problems there too. This problem has to be
curtailed all over the country.
The answer to that question is that it is categorically not
true. There is no hidden agenda here. The agenda is to try to
protect our children from drugs.
Mr. John Maloney (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
very much appreciate the opportunity to address this issue this
morning. I acknowledge the conviction and passion of the member
for Langley—Abbotsford in proposing this motion and speaking on
it.
I am speaking on behalf of the Minister of Health this morning.
I would like to thank the hon. member opposite for bringing
forward this motion. I certainly applaud his concern over the
issue of non-medical drug use in Canada because it is a subject
that merits the attention of all members of parliament and all
parties.
Reducing the magnitude of the drug use problem is a priority for
the government, throughout Canada, especially in our urban
centres and in some of our aboriginal communities.
Also, I want to echo the comments of the hon. member for
Langley—Abbotsford.
1045
Drug use is one of the most complex and vexing challenges before
us today. It is not simply a question of controlling the supply
of illicit drug products but of curbing demand and dealing with
the health impacts, the crime and the myriad of other
consequences of non-medical drug use.
It is such a complex problem that it demands a comprehensive
range of solutions. It requires the co-operation of numerous
departments and agencies within the Government of Canada as well
as meaningful partnerships among and between governments,
institutions, voluntary organizations, community groups and
advocacy organizations. That is the essence of Canada's drug
strategy.
It is a comprehensive approach aimed at reducing harm associated
with alcohol and other drugs, harm caused to the person who lives
in the grip of these addictive substances and harm to their
families and to their communities.
The strategy reflects a balanced approach to reducing both the
supply and the demand for drugs. It is a measured approach that
focuses on our capacity to prevent drug use, to enhance treatment
and rehabilitation and to support an expanded range of
enforcement and control responses.
Over time we have integrated other elements into the strategy
which address the global nature of the drug problem, for example,
an increase in our support for research and evaluation here at
home. I want to underline that the reason for the ongoing
acceptance and success of this strategy is its emphasis on
partnership.
Canada's drug strategy involves a variety of partners, including
14 federal departments, provincial and territorial governments,
addiction agencies, non-government organizations, professional
associations, law enforcement agencies, the private sector and
community groups.
As was stated in the most recent red book and in the Speech from
the Throne, our role and commitment to addressing substance abuse
issues remains a priority.
In the area of injection drug use, Health Canada co-chairs with
British Columbia a federal-provincial-territorial committee
comprised of representatives from health, justice, the aboriginal
community as well as other stakeholders. The committee's task is
to recommend what kind of co-ordinated action governments and
their partners could take to reduce the harm associated with
injection drug use in Canada. The committee has already engaged
in extensive consultations on safe injection sites but any
concrete proposals to curb injection drugs can only proceed with
the full engagement of the communities concerned.
Health Canada is also a partner in the innovative Vancouver
agreement. The five year agreement takes the position that the
drug problems of the downtown east side demand a comprehensive
range of solutions. These include everything from treatment and
health promotion to increased housing, public safety and economic
revitalization.
Last summer I had the opportunity to visit east Vancouver with
the subcommittee on organized crime. I witnessed the very sad
commentary on our society. I observed individuals in the shadows
shooting up. I observed an individual who died almost before our
very eyes on the street from a drug overdose. I saw the flop
houses where these people live almost like creatures. This had a
tremendous impact on those of us who walked through this area
with a member of the Vancouver drug squad.
I saw youth who had so much potential. I could see in their
eyes that they were just wasting away. I saw other youth who
were down there for a joyride so to speak, just for a walk on the
wild side. I told them to get out of the area before they were
caught. I found it incomprehensible.
We came across a young woman who obviously knew the police
officer as they were on very good terms. Instead of being penal
officers they are guardians who monitor these individuals. This
young woman advised the officer that there was an individual
preying on women in the area and had raped several of them that
week. She had been raped a couple of days earlier. She was also
HIV positive.
We could see the downward cycle of all the people who were
involved in that area. Our committee was looking at how drugs
came into the area, which was mainly by way of airports and
seaports. We saw the end result of those activities. It was an
incredible experience. It would have had an impact on any member
of the House.
1050
It is worth noting that the four pillars on which the Vancouver
agreement is founded, prevention, treatment, enforcement and harm
reduction, are consistent with the goals of Canada's drug
strategy.
Like other Canadians, some first nations and Inuit struggle with
addiction to various substances. Health Canada is committed to
working in partnership with the aboriginal communities to address
alcohol and other drug abuse problems. This past winter we saw
young children sniffing gasoline and being taken from their
community in order to be rehabilitated and to be put on the right
track. We see that all over Canada.
One way we are tackling the problem together is through the
national native alcohol and drug abuse program. We aim to
confront the cultural, social and personal aspects of addiction.
In addition to a network of 53 treatment centres, the program
encompasses more than 500 community based initiatives geared
toward providing first nations and Inuit people with culturally
relevant education and prevention programs, crisis counselling,
treatment referrals and follow up.
Within that context, solvent abuse among aboriginal youth is of
particular concern. That is why we have been working with
aboriginal communities to establish a network of 10 residential
sites to treat young people with solvent addictions in a
culturally appropriate environment.
The youth solvent abuse program also includes an outreach
component. Treatment centre staff work with communities to offer
education on abusive solvents, such as gasoline and aerosol
sprays, and to provide follow up care for youth who have
completed treatment. The follow up care is almost as important
as the treatment itself so that they do not fall back into the
lifestyle that they had been experiencing.
Clearly, as long as drugs remain a problem for Canadians, we
need to understand a great deal more about why people become
addicted to drugs and to help them conquer their addictions.
The Canadian Institutes for Health Research currently funds more
than 300 researchers in the realm of drug research and
pharmaceutical science for a total of some $20 million. The
investment supports a vast range of work, including
investigations on the puzzle of drug addiction. As with all
Canadian health research initiatives, this work is collaborative
involving teams of researchers across a range of disciplines.
I would like to point out that our efforts to reduce drug abuse
are carried out in an international context. The United Nations
international drug control program and the Inter-American Drug
Abuse Control Commission have both urged governments to develop
national frameworks to address the global drug problem.
The supply and trafficking of illicit drugs, which feed our
domestic demand, are very much international problems that demand
co-ordinated action. In addition to fulfilling our international
commitments, we also work closely with other nations to see if we
can apply their lessons learned to our own situation.
The member for Langley—Abbotsford mentioned the drug trade
between British Columbia and the United States. The trade goes
both ways across the border and it has to be stopped. There is a
co-ordinated border approach by police and revenue and customs.
They are working together as teams to fight the problem on both
sides of the border.
The Minister of Health has taken the lead on Canada's drug
strategy which is only fitting since drug use is, first and
foremost, an issue of human health. However it is also many
other things, with economic, social, legal, judicial and public
security dimensions included. That is why he is grateful for the
contributions of the many other partners who make the strategy
work.
Canada Customs and Revenue Agency aims to stop the flow of
illegal drugs across the border. All of us have witnessed the
drug dogs that are extremely competent at finding illicit
contraband. The solicitor general and the RCMP, who work so hard
to get drugs off the streets, and the provinces and territories
are all vital partners in all aspects of the strategy.
There are many others too numerous to list, such as individuals,
community groups, volunteers, government officials, researchers
and countless others, who are doing their part to reduce the
dangers of drug use in Canada.
In that context and on behalf of the Minister of Health I
welcome the concerns of the hon. member for Langley—Abbotsford.
As a government we have committed to continue the battle against
illegal drug use. Our efforts can only benefit renewed interest
by a committee of the House.
Should hon. members vote to establish such a committee, I give
my assurance that we will look forward to the committee's
recommendations on new ways for the Government of Canada to help
further reduce the dimensions of Canada's drug problem.
At this point I move:
1055
It would give more time to implement the motion.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): The amendment is in
order.
Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, I am happy that the government has agreed to go
along with the motion and to establish the committee.
I caution the government on some comments that were just made.
It is probably necessary in the debate to say how much the
government is doing and how well it is doing on this issue.
However I can sincerely say that no one thinks we are doing
enough. The country has a serious drug problem in schools,
homes, the workplace and recreation areas.
We might say that the government is working on comprehensive
programs. It has written documents and has a strategy, but not
many people think it is working because it is not working. That
is why the parliamentary committee is so necessary.
I thank the member opposite for his co-operation on the motion.
Does the member have any statistical data that would tell us just
how many people in Canada have died in the last two to three
years from drug overdoses?
I am sure he knows the situation is escalating and that many
individuals are in anguish today because someone in their family
may be on drugs. Does he believe the problem is escalating? Have
any of these programs really done their job to date?
Mr. John Maloney: Mr. Speaker, I am not personally aware
of the actual number of people who may have succumbed to
overdoses of drugs over the last two or three years. I can
simply say that one is too many. I also agree that we have a
problem. That is why we are trying to address the problem with a
multifaceted and co-ordinated approach.
Bill C-24 is before the House. It would give our police forces
the tools to fight organized crime. All of us here would agree
that organized criminal activity is behind much of the drug
activity. It requires a two pronged approach. We have to
approach the issue from a health perspective and the law
enforcement perspective. We will fight the war on drugs by
working together and working with our international partners.
1100
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, the hon.
member mentioned illicit drugs coming into the country. I was at
a meeting not too long ago in my riding at which a representative
of the provincial police force spoke. When the meeting was
opened up to questions, I asked the police officer if more drugs
were coming into the country since the elimination of the port
police. As we know the government decided to eliminate all port
police across Canada.
He thanked me for the question and said that I was the first
person to ask that question. He said they were having a terrible
time at every port because there were no port police. He said
that with the removal of the port police the situation of illicit
drugs entering the country should be looked at very seriously.
I ask the hon. member that when the committee meets that it take
a look at that situation. I think we can make very positive
changes if we bring back the port police.
Mr. John Maloney: Mr. Speaker, it is an interesting
factor which the committee should look at. The elimination of
the port police was a cost saving measure with the understanding
that the existing municipal forces, the provincial police, as
well as the RCMP could handle the situation in a co-ordinated
approach. If it is not working, then it is incumbent upon this
committee to explore that avenue and bring recommendations back
to the government.
Mr. Randy White: Mr. Speaker, since he is the
parliamentary secretary for justice, I would like to ask him a
question that relates to drugs in prison. I know a fair bit
about this and have watched it over the years. Even today there
are drug cartels in prisons, which is unbelievable.
Something that has always perplexed me is there are people going
into prisons who are not addicted to drugs and coming out
addicted. There are a lot of drugs in prisons. If we cannot
stop that kind of drug activity in a prison where there are bars,
razor wire and big walls to keep people out, how on earth will it
be possible to stop the proliferation of drugs on the outside?
Mr. John Maloney: Mr. Speaker, the member raises a very
interesting concept which the man on the street finds hard to
believe, that behind these custodial facilities there is a drug
problem. It is another area that the committee should look into.
It is a question that might better be put to the solicitor
general or the parliamentary secretary to the solicitor general
who have carriage of that aspect of our government.
We are fighting drugs in prisons. Prisons have ion machines and
searches are conducted. There are some very unique ways in
which contraband is brought into prisons. One method is by
placing contraband in human orifices. It is a question of how
far we go with our searches. We will have to go further. We
will have to be militant and vigilant with the individuals who
deal with these offenders, whether they are on day parole or
something of that nature.
Drugs are getting in somehow and we have to stop that flow. We
have to combat the whole situation within prisons, including
diseases that can be communicated through drug use with needles.
We have to fight it. This is what the committee needs to look at
to make proper recommendations to the government, and I am
extremely positive that the government would move on these
recommendations.
1105
[Translation]
Mr. Réal Ménard: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The
meaning of the amendment tabled by the government is not
immediately clear. Could you read the amendment tabled by the
government?
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): The amendment says quite
simply that instead of June 1, 2002, the date be November 1,
2002.
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I would
first like to congratulate the member for Langley—Abbotsford,
myself. I repeat, the Bloc Quebecois will support this motion.
I would however, since we now have a French translation of the
amendment, read the first part if I may for the people joining
us.
The motion tabled by the Canadian Alliance provides:
That a special committee of the House be appointed to consider
the factors underlying or relating to the non-medical use of
drugs in Canada and make recommendations with respect to the
ways or means by which the government can act, alone or in its
relations with governments at other levels, in the reduction of
the dimensions of the problem involved in such use;
I would like to make three comments on the wording proposed by
our Canadian Alliance colleagues.
We want to sit on the committee. I am the member for
Hochelaga—Maisonneuve in Montreal east, and drug use and traffic
and shooting galleries are a reality there.
However, I do not want the philosophy and work of the committee
to be considered from a “law and order” perspective. There are
certain circumstances in which drug use is a problem. There are
others where it is not.
I listened earlier to our colleague from Saint John. She was
getting in a bit of a state even before the work had begun. I
think we should issue a call for calm.
She says that she herself did a study—picture it—on cannabis, and
that smoking it automatically kills nine cells a second.
I hope that she will be so good as to table these studies,
because this week the Canadian Medical Association—and with all
due respect for the member for Saint John, I would be more
inclined to go along with the Canadian Medical Association than
her on these matters—asked that possession of marijuana for
personal use be decriminalized because no studies had shown that
it had any harmful effects.
Naturally, when it comes to heroin or other hard drugs, I think
that a different attitude is in order.
But I hope that in the committee's work—and I know that the
member for Rosemont—Petit-Patrie also has an interest in these
matters—there will be some leeway and that a “law and order”
mentality will not prevail. That is my first comment.
My second comment is this. In June of last year, the leader of
the Bloc Quebecois asked me to work in a group with the member
for Longueuil and the member for Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert on the
whole issue of street prostitution.
I visited Vancouver. I went to that part of the city where
prostitution and drug use are rampant—I think it is called the
middle east—and where there have been many problems. I saw
horrific scenes.
I must admit, I never thought such a situation could exist in
Canada.
Certainly, there are links between street prostitution and drug
addiction. Of course, the problem cannot be reduced to solely
an effect of drug addiction, but there is a connection between
the two.
Third, I also hope that the parliamentary committee our
colleague wishes to strike will have the necessary resources to
carry out investigations. Often, in my opinion, we rely on
hearsay, on statements that often feed prejudice.
1110
I hope that we will have the full co-operation of the departments
of justice and of health and that of Correctional Service
Canada, so that we will have access to all available data.
Third, I recall that a certain amount of work has already been
done. Today is not the first time Canada and the provinces have
addressed the consequences of drug use. As long ago as 1969, we
had the Le Dain Commission. We need, I believe, to start with
what has already been done. There are other basic premises as
well, of course, but I do believe we need to start with what has
already been done.
Our hon. colleague, the sponsor of the motion, has just
made the statement that the Senate committee had restricted
itself to cannabis. I have looked into this, and the Senate
committee did not limit itself to the cannabis issue. It is
engaged in an overview of the entire drug use situation in
Canada. This Senate committee, chaired by Senator Nolin, has a
two-year mandate. This is not something that can be done in a
couple of days.
Even if my political party, and that of the hon. member who
sponsored the motion, would like to see the Senate abolished, we
ought I think to take inspiration from its resources and the
work its people are doing.
We need to keep in mind that assessing the consequences of drug
use cannot divorce this problem from the social considerations.
We will also have to make a connection with poverty and with the
meaning of life. It is interesting to see that there is often a
connection between the use of drugs and an environment where
poverty is prevalent. I hope that we will keep this in mind when
the time comes to make recommendations and deal with these
issues.
Another issue that the committee will have to examine is how
effective the repressive approach has been so far. The motion
reflects a degree of conservatism, in my opinion. It refers to
drug use as if it were a phenomenon or a problem. However, its
mover was very eloquent in concluding that, so far, the
repressive approach has not been effective at all.
It cannot be said that using this repressive approach,
prohibiting drug use and making it a criminal offence have
had much impact on the balance that we as parliamentarians are
trying to establish.
I now want to deal with another important issue. Earlier, I
wondered whether we should start from the framework proposed
under the harm reduction strategy. This framework, with which
Health Canada officials are familiar, is rather well defined. Of
course, it is not a magical solution that automatically makes
people stop using drugs, but it is a model for action.
The harm reduction strategy is based on three elements. There is
recognition of the fact that there are people who have drug
dependency problems. No moral judgment is made. No one says that
it is good or bad.
Rather, there is simply recognition of the fact that there are
people who use drugs and that this makes them dysfunctional and
can even adversely affect the communities in which they live.
Two, three, four or five years can elapse between the time when
this is recognized and the time when these people actually stop
using drugs, particularly soft drugs.
1115
What can be done to ensure that drugs are used under the safest
conditions possible for the user and his surroundings? The
safest possible surroundings means that dirty needles are not
used or shared among users, that there are places to inject
safely and to exchange needles and that the needles are
recovered and cannot be used in the community.
This is the model proposed under the harm reduction strategy.
This model is known to the various interveners, especially
people in the regional boards and those in the health field.
There is another statistic we should bear in mind in doing our
work. According to police data, data available from the various
police forces, the RCMP, the SPCUM and the Sûreté du Québec,
barely 1% of drugs on the market are intercepted. This means of
course that there is a whole element of drug use and of drug
trafficking that is totally beyond police control.
According to various police data, somewhere between 1% and 10%
of narcotics are intercepted by the police. Should we not
conclude there is some link between the prohibitionist strategy
that has been followed now for several decades and the fact that
the police have been unable to stop drug traffickers? The
committee should look at this question.
I also want to remind the House that, in our consideration of
drug use, we should make a distinction between cannabis and
heroin or other hard drugs.
In 1999, a Canadian Alliance member introduced a bill. I know
that we may not name members but, since I do not know the name
of his riding, allow me to disregard the standing orders for 30
seconds. I am referring to the member who is a doctor, who ran
for the leadership of the Canadian Alliance, and who is a friend
of the leader of that party. On April 26, 1999, he introduced
Bill C-503 to decriminalize simple possession of marijuana. I
would ask the member who moved the motion today whether he
supports the bill introduced by his colleague.
In my party, the member for Rosemont—Petite-Patrie also moved a
motion, which was voted on, in which he urged parliamentarians
to decriminalize the use of cannabis for medical purposes.
I understand that today's motion is about the use of drugs for
non-medical purposes; that is very clear in the motion. Should
we admit from the outset that cannabis should be treated
differently than other drugs? In all likelihood, there is no
harm associated with moderate consumption. The Canadian Medical
Association reminded us that there is scientific evidence to
support this.
That is so much for the premise. I am grateful to the member for
Langley—Abbotsford for moving this motion.
As parliamentarians, we are capable of taking an objective look
at this issue. Obviously, when I talk about an objective look, I
realize that we all have our own moral values regarding drugs.
However, as parliamentarians, we cannot impose those morals on
others.
I hope that we will be guided in our work by two main concerns:
the safety of communities and the issue of crime.
1120
Once again, questions have to be asked about the current
repressive approach, which has been in effect for 50 years, has
created a sizeable black market and has led to clashes within
the world of organized crime.
Since 1995, there have been at least 147 victims of motorcycle
gang turf wars. Battles over territory are most certainly
connected with establishing areas in which they can sell drugs.
These are all matters we need to bear in mind.
I can assure our Alliance colleague that the Bloc Quebecois will
make a very serious contribution to this committee. I do not
know whether the Canadian Alliance agrees with the amendment
presented by the government on the reporting date of November,
but we will have an opportunity to discuss that. I am also
going to look at this with the leader of my party.
I do, however, believe that there is considerable consensus in
this House on the striking of this committee. I trust that it
will have all possible means available to it in order to do
quality work and, therefore, draft informed recommendations.
[English]
Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, in response to my colleague, yes, we agree with the
date change. It is a friendly amendment because it would allow
us over the summer of 2002 to look at that as well.
Also in response to my colleague, yes, there are probably
members of this party and every party in the House who think
marijuana should be looked at in terms of legalization or
decriminalization. That is one of the reasons politicians in
Canada are so reluctant to talk about drugs, as we are doing here
today for the first time in decades. It is because they do not
want to answer the question of whether marijuana should be
legalized. That is one of the things that should be within the
scope of the committee. A lot of people out there and in the
House have yet to form an opinion.
The hon. member brought up the issue of prostitution and
suggested that it was correlated to drugs. He said that
prostitution and drugs were cause and effect. I have accompanied
the Vancouver police and have looked through facilities where
drug addicts and prostitutes live. I can tell hon. members that
the average person would not put a dog in those kinds of places.
They are rat infested, terrible, dilapidated places with used
needles and condoms lying around.
Does my colleague think prostitutes are criminals or victims of
the drug trade?
[Translation]
Mr. Réal Ménard: Mr. Speaker, I have had an interest in
prostitution for the past five years. The answer will be more
nuanced than the question. Could I have calm please. Those who
want to take part in the debate should do so responsibly.
In certain cases, prostitutes, also known as sex workers, are
definitely victims, because they did not choose this work,
because they are under the control of a pimp, because they are
beaten and because society is prejudiced. The state of the law
prevents prostitution from being considered real work.
I remind all members in this House that, when prostitutes are
assaulted, they cannot call in the police; since they operate
clandestinely and the whole context of prostitution is
criminal—there is a legislative framework—prostitutes are often
victims.
1125
I will give an example that comes from personal experience. In
1995, a meeting took place in my office to discuss the issue of
prostitution. Among the sex trade workers who were present,
there was a former page of the House of Commons, a person who
had worked here as a page in 1993-94. At the time, I was a young
member of parliament; I remember her well. So, this was a few
years later. She had gone to university. She came from a well to
do traditional family, but she had chosen the sex trade.
When we talk about prostitution, we must not have preconceived
ideas or be biased.
The reality of prostitution is not black and white.
This being said, it is true that there is a very real connection
between drug dependency and prostitution. I hope that, as
parliamentarians, we will have a debate on prostitution. We
should clearly recognize that prostitutes are people, like
everybody else. However, prostitutes must, on their part,
recognize that they cannot operate anywhere, any time and any
way they want.
Hon. members may remember that in June 2000, in south central
Montreal, and more specifically in the riding of the Bloc
Quebecois leader, there was a confrontation between local
residents and sex trade workers. The public too is entitled to a
certain quality of life. People should not have to put up with
disgraceful scenes in front of their homes. We will have to
provide a legislative framework for prostitution, something that
is sorely lacking right now.
[English]
Mr. Randy White: Mr. Speaker, prostitution is a serious
issue in Canada. The many prostitutes I have talked to were all
drug addicted and were all very young children. It is sad to
see.
What does my colleague think about the effectiveness of our
court system? I will give one of the hundreds of examples of
which I know. A fellow was caught with drugs worth a street
value of $366,000. He was on social assistance as many such
people are. He was given one day in jail. His track record goes
back to 1972 and includes dozens of convictions for things such
as possession of a restricted drug, possession of narcotics,
trafficking, importing narcotics, cultivation of narcotics and on
and on it goes. After all these convictions the fellow received
just one day in jail.
I ask the hon. member: What is wrong with our justice system
today? Why do sentences not escalate according to the number of
convictions? It seems very erratic. Criminal records for some
individuals go back years and years and yet they have been given
five days, ten days, nothing, suspended sentences and so on. It
is an erratic approach in our court system. Does that not aid
and abet the drug problem?
[Translation]
Mr. Réal Ménard: Mr. Speaker, the only comment that comes to mind
is a wish. When an adolescent is sentenced, I do not think that
incarceration alone is the answer.
The House is of course familiar with our views on young
offenders. I do not think that our views on street prostitution
are different.
I have spoken to many prostitutes, and I have done so often in
recent months. When someone is 16 years old and walking the
streets, this should be of concern to us socially. Naturally,
there is an element of personal responsibility.
I do not think we should exclude individual responsibility, but
I am not convinced that repression, incarceration and heavier
sentences are the automatic solutions certain members of this
House may think.
1130
That having been said, when the member gives examples of repeat
offenders for whom rehabilitation has obviously not worked, I
think there are certain circumstances where we must face the
facts and that some people must be put behind bars.
The Bloc Quebecois does not automatically maintain that
rehabilitation is always the answer, but we do not wish to
conceal our view that there should be a very serious attempt,
particularly for those who are 14, 15, 16, 17 or 18 years of
age, to rehabilitate.
[English]
Mr. Randy White: Mr. Speaker, I was not talking necessarily
about putting these people behind bars, but I wonder if my
colleague could talk about what could be done to break the cycle
of addiction.
When people have no qualms about stealing or robbing because
they must have a fix, in particular of heroin and other addictive
drugs, is there not a point where we must get these people into
detox and rehabilitation and out of that cycle?
[Translation]
Mr. Réal Ménard: Mr. Speaker, the answer is yes. We must
consider the background and all the variables, but the member is
right. In certain cases, we must get these people out of this
cycle and put them behind bars. There are cases were a sentence
is indicated, where it is the approach to consider.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[English]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker,
I rise on a point of order. Following consultations I seek
unanimous consent of the House to move the following motion. I
move:
That Mr. Harris and Ms. Gallant be substituted for Mr. Strahl and
Mr. McNally as members of the Standing Committee on Procedure and
House Affairs.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): The House has heard the
terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt
the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Motion agreed to)
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
SUPPLY
ALLOTTED DAY—DRUGS
The House resumed consideration of the motion and of the
amendment.
Mr. Dick Proctor (Palliser, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased, as always when I get an opportunity to speak in the
Chamber, to take part in the debate today.
We are voting on whether to strike a special committee of the
House to investigate factors underlying or relating to the
non-medicinal use of drugs in Canada and to make recommendations
regarding ways the government can act, alone or in relation with
governments at other levels, to reduce the problem.
The issue is timely in the sense that we see in the newspapers
and on television an increasing interest in it. There was an
article yesterday in one of the Ottawa newspapers outlining the
pros and cons of decriminalization. Last night counterSpin on
CBC television devoted its hour to vigorous debate, as it usually
does, on the pros and cons of decriminalizing some of the softer
drugs, particularly marijuana.
I will begin with a synopsis of what Dr. John Hoey, the editor
of the Canadian Medical Association Journal, had to say on
the subject. He said recreational use had proven fairly harmless
over the years but that he was increasingly concerned, as are
many folks in the Canadian Medical Association, about simple
possession and personal use leading to a criminal offence being
left on a person's record throughout his or her life.
Members of the CMA take the position that possession for
personal use should by decriminalized. According to Dr. Hoey
there are minimal negative effects to the estimated 1.5 million
Canadians who use marijuana in a recreational way. He says the
real harm is the legal and social fallout from charges of
possession for personal use. He adds that 50% of all drug
arrests are for simple possession.
It was interesting that members of parliament recently received
a little pocketbook from Statistics Canada, “Canada at a
Glance”. It was sent out in connection with the May 15 census
day.
According to the section on law enforcement, we are at a 20 year
low in terms of criminal code offences. In virtually every
category but two, and there are roughly 12, there are decreases,
many substantial. For example, property crimes went down by
14.7% between 1994 and 1999. Sexual assault was off by almost a
quarter in the same period.
1135
However there are two exceptions. There was a slight increase
in motor vehicle theft between 1994 and 1999. It went up 1.2%.
Drug charges went up a whopping 32.8%, almost a one-third per
cent increase, from just over 60,000 charges in 1994 to just
under 80,000 charges in 1999, the last year for which statistics
are available.
Clearly Dr. Hoey and others are saying that there is a problem.
If it is true that 50% of charges, which would be some 40,000,
are for possession for personal use, then there is a clear
problem and a clear mandate for parliament to look at the issue
in a serious way.
I was not a member of parliament in 1996 but it is unfortunate
that an opportunity at that point to strike a special committee
in both Houses to examine the issue was turned down. It was
voted down and rejected for whatever reason. I have not yet had
time to investigate why but it was turned down.
As a result, a Senate special committee on illegal drugs is well
underway. It is scheduled to report next August. That would be
several months before the amended date that has been proposed,
which is November 2002. It is unfortunate that we will be
duplicating what the other place is doing if we agree to support
this. As far as I understand, all parties in the House are
supportive of the motion of the hon. member for
Langley—Abbotsford.
I suspect we will be attracting the same experts to come and
testify and will be meeting many of the same people. It is
unfortunate, when people are concerned about spending money
wisely, that we did not seize the initiative in 1996 and have one
committee rather than two.
The special committee on illegal drugs being run by the other
place has quite a comprehensive series of references. It refers
to the Le Dain commission which began its work in 1969 and
finished in 1972. Virtually 30 years later we are still debating
the issue.
The Le Dain commission, we may recall, held serious
consultations on the negative impact of Canadian drug policy in
the late 1960s and early 1970s. It focused mainly on the
non-medical use of drugs. It concluded that hundreds of
thousands of Canadians found guilty of prohibited drug possession
saw their personal freedom restrained for the rest of their lives
because of a criminal record.
The commission also concluded that the huge police resources
used to fight prohibited drug trafficking and consumption were
aimed mainly at young people. Under the circumstances, the Le
Dain commission recommended that sanctions against drug users be
gradually eliminated, that the use of marijuana be decriminalized
and that control methods other than criminal justice sanctions be
used.
That was the essence of what Le Dain had to say 30 years ago.
1140
More recently, the U.S. national academy of sciences' institute
of medicine published the results of a study commissioned by the
white house director of drug control policy. The study dealt
with the medical use of marijuana, which I appreciate is not part
of the debate today. It is interesting that despite this
academic finding the U.S. supreme court recently voted 8 to 0
against allowing the medical use of marijuana. I am pleased that
is not the position of the government opposite and that we are
proceeding along. The government's position is commendable.
We are not talking about decriminalizing marijuana. To refer to
the member for Langley—Abbotsford, we are not saying that there
should be no offences for use but that we should take it out of
the criminal code. Even the Canadian Association of Chiefs of
Police acknowledges that it makes sense to decriminalize
possession of small quantities of drugs, including heroin,
without actually legalizing them. That is one side of the issue
but there are at least two sides.
Half the editorial page in the Ottawa Citizen dealt with
the current city of Ottawa police chief who says that the
decriminalization of marijuana or soft drugs for personal use is
not a road he wants to go down. He sees the effects of drug
abuse each and every day and says that it attacks the fabric of
society.
He argues that marijuana and other cannabis products have much
higher levels of THC than they did in the 1960s and 1970s. I do
not know whether that is the case. Someone on counterSpin
last night argued very vigorously that it was not. It is
something the special committee could look at if the resolution
passes. I suspect it is something the Senate committee will look
at or may already have looked at.
A couple of other points are worth making. I wonder, given that
we are going down a slightly different path than the United
States, how much flexibility Canada will be allowed.
Within the last year stories have come out of British Columbia
about police departments looking the other way with regard to
small amounts of drug use. However we have also heard and read
stories about American law enforcement officials prepared to
chase suspected drug users beyond the Washington border into
British Columbia and try to force the Canadian government to take
a stronger position against drug use.
On the relationship between Canada and the United States, the
front page of today's Ottawa Citizen features an
interesting story about how high tech military spies in Ottawa
have joined the United States' war on drugs by eavesdropping on
South American drug lords.
1145
With globalization and the intertwinement of our two countries,
one wonders how much freedom Canada will actually have in areas
like this. We obviously know that the current U.S. president and
most of his predecessors have been very hawkish on trying to
eliminate the importation of drugs into the United States. One
could hardly imagine that they would take a softer policy north
of the 49th than they would take south in Mexico, the Caribbean
and Central and South America. That would be something which
would merit attention by any special subcommittee that is
established.
I would also like to make reference to my colleague, the member
for Vancouver East, who has spoken out on the subject of drugs
and the particular plight of people in her constituency in the
downtown Vancouver area. She has been pressing the government on
its response to the health crisis that results from drug use, its
over use and the safety of citizens. In fact the member has
raised this issue ever since she arrived in the House in 1997.
She reported that there are experts out there, including from
the city of Vancouver, but the leadership and action on this
issue over a long period of time has been so slow. She has
called on the Minister of Health to adopt multi-centre heroin
prescription trials, safe injection sites and better housing and
social support.
These are some of the things the member for Langley—Abbotsford
asked the colleague from the Bloc about when he referred to the
places where users lived. They were places in which we would not
want to put a dog. I am sure that that is absolutely true and
something that needs to be looked at. Perhaps if we were to take
some progressive steps here we could get beyond some of those
deplorable conditions that exist now and make not only the users
safer but the non-users and the people who are on the streets
safer. We think, and my colleague from Vancouver East believes,
it would reduce crime. We have seen examples of that in places
like Europe and Australia, which have been a little more
avant-garde than Canadian politicians have been.
In conclusion, the New Democratic Party welcomes the opportunity
to debate this issue. We will support it. We regret that a
special committee of both Houses of parliament was not struck in
1996 when this matter came up. It seems that the Senate is
already well down this investigative road on the illegal or legal
use of drugs or the decriminalization thereof. We are just
starting down this road.
Having said that, we cannot go back to 1996. It is unfortunate
we did not have one committee. We will now have two, but we will
be supportive of this policy and this motion.
Mr. Vic Toews (Provencher, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I am encouraged by the very productive and non-partisan
approach that members in the House are taking. I would like to
commend the former speaker for his comments. I noted he brought
forward again the Le Dain report, which many of us recall, and
the recommendation in that very significant but overlooked
report.
The issue of gradually reducing the penalties on illicit drug
use is of course a contentious matter, but would the member have
any initial views on the non-criminalization and the elimination
of penalties for the use of these drugs?
I ask the question based on comments that I think many of us have
received from constituents. Certainly these are comments that I
have received from constituents when I served in the Manitoba
provincial legislature where I represented an urban riding.
1150
The comments go along very generally like this. If all
presently illegal drugs were legalized and the distribution
properly controlled, there would be no incentive to rob and
otherwise injure law-abiding citizens. Then we could divert
resources from law enforcement to more intensive social services
to get to the root of the problem. Has the member any further
comments to add on that?
Mr. Dick Proctor: Mr. Speaker, there were a couple of
parts to that question. Let me deal with some additional
thoughts on the Le Dain Commission.
Gerald Le Dain, who headed the commission, held serious
consultations on the negative impacts of the Canadian drug policy
back in the late 1960s, which focused mainly on the non-medical
use of drugs. As the member would know, he was the former dean
of the Osgoode Hall Law School of the University of Toronto and
former justice of the supreme court. He took the view that
politicians were the ones to blame over the years for not seizing
the initiatives on this issue at the beginning of the 1970s. In
fact in an interview about three years ago Mr. Le Dain stated:
It was a hot potato for all the parties and they didn't want to
run any risk. The position adopted by the politicians was to do
nothing. We saw at the hearings the public was worried about
their kids. The public saw those current laws as a tremendous
injustice.
I think all parties and all governments stand accused of not
doing this. It is unfortunate that time has elapsed.
With respect to the decriminalization of all drugs, I am not an
expert. I would hope and think that would be part of this study. I
tend to agree that we should decriminalize marijuana. That
happens to be our party's policy. I really do not have a view on
whether we should decriminalize ecstasy, or heroin or cocaine. I
suspect we are dealing with more addictive drugs, at least that
is what I am given to understand. That would be something a
special committee of the House would look at, and I rather
suspect the other place is looking at that as well.
Hon. David Kilgour (Secretary of State (Latin America and
Africa), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the member from Fraser Valley
spoke about the drug problem primarily in British Columbia.
Could the member for Palliser tell us about the various types of
drug problems in his province?
Mr. Dick Proctor: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if I can
pull them out, but I have seen some statistics that would suggest
drug use in Saskatchewan is just a little under the national
average and quite a bit lower than it would be in British
Columbia, Quebec and perhaps one or two other jurisdictions.
In all jurisdictions, I think people who tend to be more
vulnerable, the young and the poor, would use these drugs. We
probably would see a greater percentage of use by native people
and perhaps newcomers to Canada. Regardless of the percentage of
use in a province or jurisdiction, there would probably be an
overarching group of people who would be most vulnerable and
likely to use these drugs more than others.
1155
Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, let us not kid ourselves. This is not an issue
about a certain type of individual. I know children from fairly
wealthy families who are addicted. I know men and women who have
children who are addicted. This is not something where we will
look for a certain type of individual, whether they are new to
Canada or have been around Canada.
I am talking about people from middle and upper income families.
Their children are on the street right now selling themselves. As
I said before, they are right now shooting between their toes
because there is no other place in their arms to shoot up.
This is not just about the legalization of marijuana. This is
about cocaine, ecstasy, LSD and heroin. It is about things that
kill and addict people. That is what the committee has to
wrestle with.
The question I have for the hon. member who just spoke is this.
Could he explain in his own words the idea of rehabilitation and
the types of facilities for that? For instance, in British
Columbia there are scant few detox facilities. There are very
few intermediate ones. There may be one long term rehabilitation
facility in all of British Columbia. Considering there are over
8,000 heroin addicts alone in Vancouver that is virtually
nothing.
What kind of resources in terms of rehabilitation does he think
this country needs? I know it will have to be part of the study
we will be involved in. I do not know if there are many in his
province, but I know they are ridiculously low and virtually
non-existent in mine.
Mr. Dick Proctor: Mr. Speaker, before I answer the last
question, I did not mean to suggest that there are not people in
all strata of our society who do not have a problem with
recreational drugs, abuse and addiction too. Maybe there was
some misunderstanding.
What I said was it seemed to me to be more prevalent in people
who were the more vulnerable in our society. I agree with what
he said. Those of us who have seen the award winning movie
Traffic would see that it strikes at all levels of society.
With regard to detox centres, yes we do have some in
Saskatchewan. I doubt there are enough. I imagine there is a
paucity of these in all jurisdictions in the country. However I
would hope that part of any study done by the House would look
into that in detail.
Just on that point, the provinces deliver health care. We must
work with the provincial and territorial jurisdictions to find
out what is currently available and what we think needs to be
done collectively to address any shortage of detox centres.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the Chamber to take part in
this very important debate. I commend the hon. member for
Langley—Abbotsford again for his diligence and his perseverance
in bringing this issue forward.
As has been stated, the motion calls upon the House to consider
the factors underlying and relating to the non-medical use of
drugs in Canada, to make recommendations, to put this matter into
the hands of an all party committee and to report within a year.
Although we can all acknowledge this is a massive undertaking,
it is perhaps one of the most fundamental things we can do in a
positive fashion to look for solutions to a very complicated and
multifaceted problem facing many Canadians.
This motion is one which is broad enough in its terms of
reference, but I have some concerns with respect to a current
motion and a current committee that is undertaking a similar
exercise. That committee of course is in the other place and is
chaired by Senator Nolin. The issue is receiving considerable
study.
1200
The exercise being done in the other place is not limited to
marijuana. It is in fact quite broad in its scope. The purpose
of the study, similar to what the motion proposes, is to look at
all the symptoms and causes. It calls for broad consultations
with stakeholders in order to delve into the indirect harms and
costs of illicit drugs in Canada.
The costs far outweigh the direct financial cost when we begin
breaking it down. It is symptomatic of some of the broader
social ills and vices that exist. Drugs and alcohol are in many
instances escapism. They are used in an attempt to get away from
the toils, the mundane and the horrors that exist in people's
lives or to escape from a past that may have included a sexual
assault or a terrible incident of violence.
Drug and alcohol abuse are like a cancer that eats away at
productivity in Canada. People who are addicted to drugs or
alcohol cannot realistically reach their potential or make
contributions to society. It is almost trite to say that the
impact is so broad that for many it becomes a question of where
to start. The type of study we would undertake would certainly
be a step in the right direction to finding out where to go, what
direction we should be taking and where we should be
concentrating our efforts.
Like so many problems of this magnitude, simply putting
resources into existing services or attempting to address the
problem will not suffice. We need to be focused in our direction
when searching for a strategy.
The terms of reference of the committee in the other place,
which has been studying this issue since November 1998, say that
the most direct harm occurs in high risk populations, such as
injecting drug users, street youth, the inner city core and
natives. That is almost a penetrating statement of the obvious.
Indigenous Canadians are facing huge problems in their
community. Their reliance on or addiction to drugs and alcohol
has had devastating effects. Between 65% and 80% of aboriginal
people have a drug problem. This has been one of the leading
causes of death among the Inuit and native peoples. Injury and
poisoning, with patterns of violent death, are three to four
times greater than the national average when one starts to look
at the drug problems and their costs in terms of human lives.
Many meet unnatural deaths while drinking. Compared with 45% of
non-natives, alcohol or drug involvement is the primary cause of
death and is five times greater for natives.
The suicide rate for native children on reserves in Saskatchewan
is 27 times higher than for other Canadian children. Native
youth have a two to six times greater risk of an alcohol related
problem than their counterparts in the rest of the country. We
will not even get into the massive problem of fetal alcohol
syndrome, which is also symptomatic of this greater challenge
that we have in helping our native Canadians.
The mention of street youth and adolescents who leave home to
escape physical, emotional and sexual abuse or neglect is again
very acute, not only in metropolitan big cities but is becoming a
problem in rural small town communities.
Sometimes it is a symptom of boredom and a symptom of youth who
are looking for an outlet of sorts. They are looking for
something to pique their imagination or to give them some form of
entertainment in a mundane life.
1205
This is why many members and many Canadians are looking for more
active attention and more acute focus on programs such as sports,
recreation, music and arts as outlets for young people's energies
and ingenuity, rather than in sad cases falling upon the use of
drugs and alcohol as a form of recreational escape.
It is with some encouragement that we in the House again delve
into this issue and not try to skirt the thorny or hot potato
political aspects of decriminalizing marijuana. We are at a
point where we can move beyond. We want to start looking at the
hard core addictive types of drugs and the effects they are
having on our youth and all other people.
The decriminalizing element and the medical use of marijuana are
starting to become destigmatized. Chiefs of police and police
officers are generally acknowledging that too much effort is
being put into soft drugs as opposed to hard drugs such as
heroin, acid, LSD and cocaine. In my home community in Pictou
county there is a rash of availability of a highly addictive and
destructive chemically manufactured drug called dilaudid. This
is where the real cost in human lives and health seems to be
spiralling out of control.
It is very much linked to another subject matter we have had
before us in recent days and months, organized crime. Because of
the demand and the profitability organized crime chooses to prey
upon a person's vulnerabilities and addictions. This is where
much of our focal point should be in terms of law enforcement.
This is not to suggest in any way that it is a simple problem.
It is a multifaceted problem. It will not only require giving
police the tools and the resources. It will require a very
concentrated and far reaching effort throughout health
professionals, the courts, the education system and social
services. Young people need to be made aware of their
alternatives, as opposed to being addicted to drugs and involved
in that sordid lifestyle.
The debate over the non-medical use of drugs is something that
is long overdue. Other members have commented on the fact that
there have been various studies and attempts in the past to
wrestle with this very thorny issue. This is a wonderful
non-partisan opportunity for us to wrap our arms around the
motion and get the appropriate individuals and representatives to
participate in the process.
I caution again about the risk of duplication. Much of the
exercise has begun and is continuing in the other place. It is
unfortunate that there is not some way to combine our efforts and
tap into the research and the work that have been done already.
Government is offering exemptions from prosecution to persons
with serious illnesses who grow or use marijuana. Approximately
210 people have obtained these types of exemptions. There is a
case involving a gentleman by the name of James Wakeford who is
now seeking to force the federal government to supply him with a
safe and consistent supply of marijuana. He believes it is safer
to be able to buy a supply of marijuana from the government. We
know there have been steps taken in that area.
The province of Saskatchewan is at the forefront of this area.
The Prairie Plant System in Saskatchewan has won a five year $5.7
million contract from the government to supply marijuana for
medical and research purposes by next year.
1210
I have one concern about the actual effect of marijuana use. It
appears there may be some research lacking in the health risks
associated with that particular drug. Higher levels of THC and a
higher risk of carcinogenesis can result from marijuana being
taken into a person's system.
There is a lot of controversy on this issue south of the border.
The efforts and the resources that the Americans have put into
this issue are astronomical by comparison. In terms of the money
alone, the drug strategy and the efforts of law enforcement by
our American neighbours as compared to what we are doing in
Canada truly pales by comparison. Arguably we may be moving in a
different direction, one that is aimed more at the root of the
problem.
The United States supreme court ruled just this past week
against the legalization of marijuana for medicinal purposes and
struck down existing regimes in California, Arizona and a handful
of other states that had held referendums on the subject matter
of distribution. This is in sharp contrast with what we have
seen and the growing trend that exists in Canada where the
government has taken steps toward legalization.
It is also interesting to note that this week the Canadian
Medical Journal called for the decriminalization of marijuana.
It clearly stated on the record that this was its position.
We know that policing has moved in more recent years toward
focusing on the real criminals, those who distribute the drugs
and those who exploit children who are prone to using all types
of drugs, not just marijuana or hashish. It is a complex issue.
In Vancouver, where the mover of the motion has focused much of
his commentary, the police themselves are deeply divided over a
departmental policy of not recommending charges in connection
with marijuana growing operations. The focus is now on shutting
down the operations while allowing the growers in some cases to
go free.
There are large hydroponic operations on the west coast and we
are seeing those cropping up in places around the country. There
is a huge market in the United States. Statistics indicate that
of the top three or four products being exported out of the
province of British Columbia, marijuana is in the top three or
four.
In 2000, Growbusters, a team of Vancouver patrol officers set up
specifically to deal with this problem, had not recommended
charges against suspects even though it had raided over 100
growing operations in that past year. It simply seized the
plants, the equipment and, in some cases, the home. It had city
engineers shut off power so it could shut down some of these
operations.
Regular drug squads continue to recommend charges. This
controversy of deciding how to deal with this growing problem
under the current laws goes down to the police level. It brings
up the question of whether this is an effective or even legal
problem as much as something that we should be looking at in
broader terms, particularly in health terms.
This brings me to the point that I know other members have
contemplated as well. Should we be focusing our efforts in terms
of incarceration in clinics that are akin to prison where the
individual cannot leave voluntarily? It would be a treatment
facility as opposed to warehousing drug users and drug addicts.
In some cases the drug dealers themselves are hopelessly
addicted. Selling drugs to feed their habit is what has fed their
appetite.
Should we be putting greater emphasis on rehabilitating and
treating as an illness those who are hopelessly addicted rather
than putting them, cold turkey in most instances, into prisons
with other criminals? That is another problem in terms of the
availability of drugs in prisons.
It is something many Canadians wrestle with. The stigma of
being an addict as opposed to being a criminal is sometimes
inextricable. However there is this health element and this
addictive quality that exists around the use of marijuana and the
use of many of these substances.
1215
In 1999 in Vancouver only one in five growers who did wind up
before the courts received jail sentences. Most received fines.
In approximately a third of the warrants executed, viable
suspects were found at the scene and yet were released without
charges. That creates a certain friction in information sharing.
Sometimes police forces take a different attitude toward how they
deal with those involved in the illicit drug trade. In defence
of the Vancouver police, there are reportedly over 7,000
marijuana growing operations in Vancouver alone. There are
simply not enough police or legal resources to deal with the
problem.
With inconsistencies occurring in police forces, though, it is
obvious that we have to study this from all angles and come up
with a very thoughtful, cohesive, national plan that creates a
balance between law and order and health issues, a strategy that
will be pragmatic and achievable. Many experts in the field
possess the know-how. We should be trying to draw upon those
experts who have specific knowledge of the addiction and health
aspects of this problem.
It is the Conservative Party's position that the
decriminalization of marijuana for medical purposes is a step in
the right direction. Reliance by many in society on drugs, both
legal and illegal, is accompanied by these heavy social and
economic costs. Neither legalization nor increased criminal
sanctions will fully address the complexities of drug abuse.
We know that other parties have taken a similar approach. The
mover of this motion and the Canadian Alliance Party also support
decriminalization of marijuana for medical purposes, although it
is interesting that it was not in the party platform. That
election platform did include things such as zero tolerance for
illegal drugs in federal prisons, which I think is also a part of
this particular issue.
In red book 3, the Liberal Party promised that a Liberal
government would implement a national drug strategy to reduce
both the supply of and demand for drugs. Here is an opportunity
to do that. Here is the impetus, the stepping off point. We
hope that statement is an indication of some consistency, perhaps
for a change, on this particular issue, that there will be
support and that the support will be forthcoming in the form of
support for this motion.
These problems do require a variety of measures in seeking
solutions. They include education, treatment, health and
rehabilitative efforts and government regulations. There is no
denying that the government does have a responsibility to make
laws and to adjust laws in some instances.
The problem with marijuana itself is that it has become more
potent in recent years. It is imperative that extensive studies
be undertaken to ensure that any proposed use of drugs will not
lead to an increase in health and social problems or even an
increase in its availability to minors. It is an area in which
government regulation will be required. The status quo simply
will not suffice.
The position of the Progressive Conservative Party can be
summarized in a quotation from a former Progressive Conservative
senator, Duncan Jessiman, who stated:
Making the mere possession and use of drugs a criminal offence
has not in any way reduced the use and abuse of drugs. The
present system breeds crime. It is imperative that a new
approach be found and it is my view that the use and abuse of
drugs must be treated as a health problem.
Nevertheless it is obvious that this issue of the medical use of
marijuana cannot be addressed without discussion of the problems
related to the use of other illicit drugs. The area of bigger,
more lethal and more highly addictive narcotics is, in my view,
perhaps the area we should be concentrating on most.
The use of drugs in the country is extremely widespread now. I
again commend the hon. member for bringing this forward so that
we have the opportunity to push this matter on the agenda.
As mentioned, the senate committee is doing a widespread study,
arguably in a perhaps less partisan atmosphere. I feel that the
commons committee might work with it or at least co-ordinate
efforts in such a way that we all could work together for the
solutions that we all seek. It certainly merits greater
attention. It is certainly an opportunity which the Progressive
Conservative Party very much hopes to be a part of.
1220
Mr. Dick Proctor (Palliser, NDP): Madam Speaker, I
listened with interest to the member for
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough. I want to ask him to develop
the theme he raised, which is that we may be going in a slightly
different direction than the Americans are. I agree with him
very much on this.
In our speeches we both raised the fact that the U.S. supreme
court has taken a very different position on the use of marijuana
for medical purposes. Last week the justices voted 8 to 0
against allowing it. We have gone in a different direction in
this country. I think some 400,000 Canadians have been
designated to use marijuana for medicinal purposes. There does
seem to be some science that goes with it to suggest that this is
a good thing.
In regard to the broader idea of taking a direction that is
different from the American direction, I do not want to bring up
politics, but the member's party and our party have a different
view of free trade. It is my contention that globalization and
NAFTA are placing greater impositions from the United States on
Canadians and Canadian law.
If we were to go in a significantly different direction than the
Americans would appear to be going—and there is nothing to
indicate that they are about to decriminalize anything related to
so-called soft drugs—I wonder how much latitude we would
actually be given as a country. I would be interested in the
member's comments on that.
Mr. Peter MacKay: Madam Speaker, I thank my friend for
the question. It is something that I quite frankly had not
contemplated because I do not see the drug trade as being
directly related to free trade, although there are certainly
implications whenever a country such as ours, which does so much
trade with the United States, takes a radically different policy
position. There are inevitable implications of such a move.
There are implications on all sorts of issues, including trade.
The United States has very clearly stated by virtue of its
supreme court decision and by virtue of the amount of time,
resources and effort it puts into drug enforcement, that it will
not change any time soon. In fact, statistics show that in the
United States the annual cost to the federal, state and municipal
levels of government is over $30 billion. This is absolutely
staggering when we consider what we spend in this country. Yet
what levels of success are the Americans achieving compared to
our own?
The approach is obviously important. It is my belief, and I
think it is shared by many, including the hon. member, that the
focal point should be on the health aspect, not necessarily on
going after the small users and those who are using perhaps
softer elements of narcotics. There should be a clear dividing
line between the suppliers and those who are using these very
addictive and very destructive types of drugs that alter a
person's life completely and in some cases irretrievably.
I thank the hon. member for his question. It is an important
part of the debate to compare both what is happening in other
countries and the implications for the approach we might take in
the future.
Mr. Vic Toews (Provencher, Canadian Alliance): Madam
Speaker, I am pleased to take part in this debate today on the
Canadian Alliance supply motion brought forward by the member for
Langley—Abbotsford.
I would like to begin my remarks by pointing out that there
seems to be little doubt that Canada's approach to illicit drugs
over the past few decades has been a dismal failure. I sincerely
believe we need to start looking objectively and openly at new
approaches to combat this very serious and complex problem.
When I say that there has been a failure in our drug policy, I
do not point at any one particular agency or indeed any
particular political party.
I think we have all been a part of this failure. Our reluctance
to look at genuine efforts to improve and change the system is a
very important part of that failure.
1225
At the onset of my comments I would also like to commend to
members a reading of the special report that the Ottawa
Citizen put out in September 2000. It was a report by Dan
Gardner entitled “Losing the War on Drugs”. The first line
indicates that for decades the United States led a global battle
against illicit drugs. The results have been catastrophic. It
is very important to read that report to get an understanding of
some of the issues. One may or may not agree with the
conclusions the writer reaches, but certainly I commend the
report.
I also want to state that we have to recall that drug addicts
are human beings. Whether they have brought this condition upon
themselves or whether they are victims, they are human beings
worthy of respect. They come from all types of homes and
economic backgrounds and from all parts of the country.
My own riding of Provencher is a conservative, primarily rural
riding. We do not have prostitutes in the streets of our
communities. The hard drug problem and indeed even the soft drug
problem are by and large silent and hidden, but I think there are
ominous threats that will affect even relatively serene rural
parts of the country.
I can point to the threat of methamphetamine, which is working
its way through the United States and becoming more of a problem
in Canada. As the minister of justice in Manitoba, I had
occasion to work with American law enforcement agencies that have
dealt with the horrendous problem of methamphetamine. In some of
the seminars I attended and the discussions in which I took part,
I was advised that in the state of California 90% of the child
welfare apprehensions are related to methamphetamine abuse and
many police officers and child care workers investigating these
situations do not even realize that methamphetamine is at the
root of some of these problems in terms of the immediate drug
problem.
This very dangerous drug is finding its way not only across the
United States but into Canada. For those of us who think that
heroin, cocaine and other drug problems are largely an urban,
large city problem, methamphetamine should be a wake-up call for
police forces in rural areas, because its use appears to be
growing primarily in rural ridings and among blue collar,
Caucasian individuals.
Sometimes we tend to see a drug problem as belonging to another
economic or racial group. There can certainly be very general
categories when it comes to that, but I think it is important to
remember that the problem of hard drugs ultimately affects
everyone, no matter what racial background we are, no matter what
economic background we are from and no matter where we live in
our country.
Even though a riding like Provencher does not have prostitutes
in the streets and the drug problems are primarily hidden, the
reality is that even children and young adults from the riding of
Provencher can become prostitutes and drug addicts. They drift
to the streets of larger cities, where they die in anonymity.
1230
The citizens of the large core areas of our cities suffer from
the presence of drug addicts and prostitutes. Their streets are
congested with johns, with organized crime and with other
contributing factors to the problems raised by drugs. We see
this more visibly in cities like Vancouver, Toronto and Winnipeg.
We should also commend those workers who are involved in this
very difficult struggle on a day to day basis: the police
officers, the social workers and the volunteer community
organizations. They truly are angels in a very dark night.
With the debate today, I hope we can get beyond our
apprehensions about this issue and have a productive and
non-partisan dialogue. I appreciate that the Senate is also
conducting hearings and studies in respect of this matter.
However I think we as elected representatives need to participate
in a very active way in the discussion. Because we are elected
and because we are responsible to our constituents, we need to be
involved in this process in a substantive way. This is not about
duplication. This is about participation. We need to start
thinking beyond our current policies and start asking ourselves
the tougher questions about what is working and what is not.
If the motion is passed and implemented, parliament will have a
new special committee examining the way in which the federal
parliament can address the wide ranging problems that result from
the non-medical use of drugs. The need for such a committee can
hardly be in question.
The annual worldwide revenue generated by the illicit drug
industry is approximately $400 billion American, which amounts to
about an 8% share of total international trade.
Of course Canada does not exist in a vacuum, and In Canada alone
each year the total economic costs attributed to illicit drug use
is estimated at $1.4 billion, with billions more fuelling
organized crime. According to the RCMP's 1999 report on drugs in
Canada, the illicit drug trade is a principal source of revenue
for most organized crime groups. This is a serious situation
with no easy answers.
In light of this, I would like to bring to members' attention a
letter that called into question traditional methods of dealing
with illicit drug use.
Almost three years ago, the secretary general of the United
Nations, Kofi Annan, received a letter signed by a variety of
both academic and public figures, including a former UN secretary
general, a former U.S. secretary of state, a former U.S. surgeon
general, Nobel laureates, former presidents and cabinet ministers
of Latin American countries and, indeed, in among that list was a
number of prominent Canadians. What was so remarkable was not so
much who signed the letter but the content of it. The letter
stated:
1235
This is an extraordinary statement. The main thrust of this
statement of course was that the consequences of social
deterioration from illicit drugs resulted not so much from drug
use per se but from failed drug policies.
The concerns articulated in this letter focus on the idea that
international trends reflecting primarily punitive drug control
measures have empowered criminals, corrupted governments, eroded
security and impeded efforts to prevent the spread of infectious
diseases, such as HIV and hepatitis.
The letter also claims that significant resources are being
depleted on ineffective and increasingly more expensive
interdiction efforts, and that not enough is being expended on
reducing drug related crime, disease and death.
I cannot imagine that anyone here today would dispute the kind
of substantial and permanent harm that results from the use of
illicit drugs by members of our society. However, this letter
and many other briefs and documents currently in circulation
indicate that there is significant and widespread disagreement as
to how best to solve the issue in society.
To that effect, we are proposing today to create a committee to
analyze these issues carefully and as objectively as possible.
The current strategy in Canada is almost identical to the
strategy introduced by the Conservative government almost 15
years ago. Therefore, I do not think finger pointing is
productive in this debate.
Both policies, the former and the current of the Conservative
government, clearly articulate the overall long term goal of
harm, reduction and rehabilitation, in addition to the principles
of criminal prosecution and education measures intended to combat
and prevent the abuse of such substances.
The reality is that these strategies appear to have failed
almost completely.
The Addiction Research Foundation has been conducting the
Ontario student drug use survey since 1977. I would like to
mention some of its findings today in the House.
The percentage of students using cannabis in the last 12 months
peaked at 31.7% in 1979 and then fell for the next six surveys to
11.7% in 1991. In 1993 it increased slightly to 12.7%. Since
1993 usage has climbed back up to 25% in 1997. The percentage of
users is now highest in grade 11 at 42%. That is an astounding
figure when one considers this is an illicit drug and that 42% of
grade 11 students in Ontario utilize this drug.
Peak usage of glue and solvents was in 1979 and then there was a
sharp decrease until 1991. Numbers rose again after reaching
1.8% for glue and 2.6% for solvents in 1997. The 1999 survey
gives a sharply higher figure for glue at 3.6% and solvents at
7.1%. The issue of glue and solvents is a horrendous problem in
the core area of the city of Winnipeg and some other rural
prairie cities and does significant damage to children and
adults. We have been powerless to do anything about the spread
of this horrible addiction.
The peak for LSD was in 1981. The trough was in 1991 at 5.2%.
However it has risen back up to about 7%. Overall, LSD usage has
risen over the past decade.
1240
Cocaine has been tracked since 1977 while crack cocaine, which
is usually associated with urban ghettos primarily in the
American cities, has been tracked since 1987. Cocaine peaked in
1979 at 5.1% and then fell only to rise again. Crack cocaine
usage has increased sharply. Cocaine usage rose sharply in 1999
to 3.7%. The usage of crack increased in 1999 to 2.4%.
Thirty-six percent of students in 1999 said that in the last
year someone had tried to sell them drugs. Thirty-two percent
said that they had observed someone selling drugs.
I think the statistics are clear, whether we look to Ontario,
Manitoba, British Columbia, the maritimes or Quebec, illicit drug
use, particularly by adolescents, our future here in Canada, has
been increasing steadily over the past decade.
Additionally, the Vancouver drug scene has seen a huge increase
in the purity of heroin and the introduction of cheap cocaine and
crack to the city in the early 1990s. I always have to remark
about the conjunction of the words pure and heroin. It almost
has a very chilling effect on one when something that devilish
and that horrible can be considered pure, but of course I
understand it in the chemical sense.
The number of illicit drug overdose deaths have averaged 147 per
year over the past seven years. Many of those who die from drug
overdoses are not even the heavy drug users. Casual users do not
know the strength of street heroin and mixing alcohol with heroin
dramatically increases the risk for overdose.
Experimentation with marijuana in Vancouver has risen by 50% in
the last five years to 58% of the 17 year olds interviewed.
Other areas of concern are HIV and hepatitis C infection,
increased drug misuse among youth, inadequate treatment services
and the relationship between crime and substance abuse.
If we look at the economic costs, we need to look far beyond the
simple cost of enforcing drug laws themselves. Illicit and
illegal drug use is a significant contributing factor in a wide
range of crimes, such as property offences, violent crimes,
robbery and prostitution. That does not even take into account
the organized crime rings that thrive on the commerce and the
money generated by this trade.
As elected representatives, we need to participate in an active,
substantive way. Burying our heads in the sand and saying that
this will not affect our particular riding because it is a quiet
rural riding and we have other things to concern ourselves with
will simply delay the problem. One day the problem will even be
in those ridings that we consider safe and secure from the
problems of drugs.
I commend my colleague for bringing the motion forward and I
commend the motion to others in the House.
Mr. John Maloney (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
when I look at the Alliance platform on drugs it is sort of a
vague discussion regarding the creation of a national drug
strategy and talking about increasing funding for rehabilitation
and education.
1245
However, when the government did exactly that by providing
roughly $2.5 million for a drug addiction research facility, the
member for Langley—Abbotsford called it redundant. How serious
is the Alliance about this problem? Perhaps the hon. member
could provide some insight.
Mr. Vic Toews: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the question.
I cannot speak to the details of the concern of the member for
Langley—Abbotsford about the particular expenditure of funds. In
the area of drug addiction and drug treatment it is very
important to ensure that money is being used effectively. I do
not know whether the concern was that the money was not being
used effectively.
I have spoken to the member who introduced the motion. I know
this matter concerns him very deeply. He has spent a lot of time
on the street with police forces looking into the situations and
conditions involving drug addicts and prostitutes. I do not
think he brought the matter forward in a frivolous way.
If our policy is in some way inadequate, I as a member of the
Canadian Alliance would like to hear from Canadians. We need to
be responsive to them on this issue. If we need to spend money
in certain areas in an effective way to break the cycle of drug
addiction and the downward spiral of some of our core areas, I am
prepared to re-examine policy.
I come to this issue with an open mind, in recognition that past
drug policies of Conservative and Liberal governments have
failed. I prefaced my remarks by saying that I am not pointing
fingers. I want the contribution of all members to this very
important debate, not just in the Senate but in the House of
Commons.
Mr. John Maloney: Madam Speaker, as the member opposite
is probably aware, we have a rather innovative project called the
Toronto drug treatment court. It is a special court designed to
supervise cases of drug dependency of offenders who have agreed
to accept treatment of their substance abuse. Another project of
a similar nature will be starting in Vancouver.
I am aware that some representatives of the Alliance Party have
visited the drug treatment court in Toronto. I would very much
appreciate the comments of the member opposite on whether he is
aware of the program and, if so, what he feels about it.
Mr. Vic Toews: Madam Speaker, one colleague from Regina
who will be speaking to the motion had occasion to attend at the
Toronto drug court. Generally speaking I know he received some
favourable impressions and will be speaking about them.
I commend that member for taking the initiative to look beyond
the box, the way we have traditionally approached the particular
problem. I trust his comments and the experience he gained will
not only assist us in our deliberations today but perhaps help
guide the committee.
In the area of drug policy I recognize that there will be a lot
of controversy. We have to be very hesitant to condemn those who
speak about new innovative ways. We have to seriously analyze
and evaluate these programs. We cannot just let them go on and
pretend that by simply creating new programs we are making
changes. There is a responsibility on us if as a House we fund
some of these programs.
We have a responsibility to evaluate but I will not condemn those
who, having looked at the wreckage of the drug policy over the
past three decades, now say we have to do something else.
1250
This is not only an issue of street workers or social workers
against police. I think we would find division in all these
professions, but all these individuals are trying to help the
very unfortunate people who are addicted to illicit drugs.
We need to encourage innovation that does not absolve us from
the responsibility of evaluating what has gone on. Part of the
problem is that we have not been evaluating what has gone on, but
my colleague from Regina will be giving a little more detail in
that respect.
Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Canadian Alliance): Madam
Speaker, I commend the member for Provencher on his comments and
refer to his previous office in another life when he was minister
of justice of the province of Manitoba. He is only too well
aware of the difficulties in administering justice and making
sure that our justice system works.
He made the observation that the drug policy had not worked.
That is a very serious allegation. The questions then become: Is
it that the policy was wrong? Is it that the people charged with
enforcement or implementation of the policy were wrong? Or, was
it the attitude of society which says it wants the policy but
really does not care about the problem or is not so sure that it
is a real problem and in fact says that there is nothing like
having real good coke after dinner with friends in the
neighbourhood?
Parents tell their kids they are not supposed to take coke, but
they go to the living room, open a little drawer, take out the
coke, put it on the table and consume it. What is the problem as
the member sees it? I am sure he knows only too well from his
past life what it is doing to society.
Mr. Vic Toews: Madam Speaker, as a politician and justice
minister in Manitoba I saw the top of the problem. I did not get
to see what was happening on the street and why things were
breaking down, but I think that there has been a reluctance on
the part of politicians to address the issue and a reluctance in
society generally to deal with the problem.
I speak outside the context of the urban riding in Winnipeg that
I represented where the reality of the drug problem was much more
evident. I look now at the wonderful riding of Provencher that I
represent and see a reluctance sometimes to deal head on with the
issue because it does not appear to affect the riding. Drug and
alcohol problems arise in some rural areas. People move into
urban ridings where drugs are more accessible and anonymity
protects them.
We simply push the problem off but it grows. The most telling
issue is when we speak to parents who previously may not have had
any concern about the drug problem and suddenly one day realize
that their child is addicted, that their brother is addicted or
that another member of their family is addicted. Then the reality
and the horror of drug addiction come home.
We have seen this trend in the nation. Whether we brought on
the problem ourselves or whether we are victims, we need to deal
with it. The legal framework, the enforcement policies and the
social policies do not seem to be curtailing the problem. The
problem is being fuelled and we need to address it.
1255
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I begin by saying that the member for
Langley—Abbotsford who presented the motion this morning takes a
position on most political issues with which I thoroughly
disagree. In fact the policy differences between me and the
member for Langley—Abbotsford are too numerous to mention.
However, in connection with the subject we are discussing today,
I believe that member and I have a lot of common ground. He has
suggested and I agree that it is time for the House to look
broadly at the question of the factors underlying the non-medical
use of drugs in Canada. He has suggested and I agree that it is
time for the House to look at ways in which the Government of
Canada can act either alone or in combination with other
governments to address the underlying causes of the use of
non-medical drugs.
It is also important that this examination be undertaken in a
very non-partisan way. That is certainly the spirit in which the
motion is presented and it is in that spirit that I intend to
vote in favour of the motion.
In essence the member is proposing that a committee of the House
examine what should be our national strategy in relation to the
non-medical use of drugs. He is proposing that we look at an
integrated and coherent approach to the use of illegal drugs in
Canada. May I say the motion is entirely consistent with the
policy and with the process the government supports.
I have had an opportunity to look at this issue both as a former
minister of justice and attorney general and now as the Minister
of Health. I can recall when I was minister of justice that I
asked for the opportunity to spend time with the police forces
around the country. In each of nine Canadian cities I road with
police officers during the night shift as they contended with the
issue of crime and safety on urban streets.
I have vivid memories of spending just such an evening with the
Vancouver police department. We parked the car and we walked
through the downtown east side. I can recall going through the
alleys behind the facade of stores and hotels in downtown east
side Vancouver and stepping over people who were lying prone in
the alleys with needles stuck in their thighs. They were giving
themselves injections of illegal drugs. They were lying helpless
in the alleys.
I remember discussing with the police officers the role of the
criminal justice system in relation to these people, as pathetic
as they were, as heart wrenching as they were. The conclusion to
which we all came was that this was a problem, at least when
presented in that form, that was not best addressed by the
criminal justice system because in truth it was a health issue.
Now as Canada's Minister of Health it is terribly important that
I use the opportunity the member opposite has provided to marshal
support of all members in looking critically at how we deal with
the issue, how we can best use the resources available to all
levels of government to deal with this difficult issue.
It does little good for those persons to be arrested, brought
before a criminal court or imprisoned. Surely the better answer
in the long run is to treat them, overcome the addiction and get
them back into society. Surely the better answer in the long run
is to prevent people from becoming addicted. I should like to
speak to each of the elements of that approach in the few moments
available to me today.
In the course of last fall's election campaign we as the Liberal
Party at that time undertook to implement a national drug
strategy to deal with both supply and demand and to crack down on
organized crime to the extent to which it was involved in
supplying the illegal drug market. We spoke during the campaign
of prevention. We spoke of treatment. We spoke of
rehabilitation. We spoke of enforcement and control.
1300
We also talked about this as being an international issue and
the need for research to better understand the nature of the
challenge, and an evaluation to make sure that the steps taken by
government are effective.
I came back last night from Geneva where I attended the annual
assembly of the World Health Organization. I had occasion during
the last few days, in the company of four or five members from
other parties, to speak with ministers of health from around the
world. On the list of items where we had a common interest,
where we said we wanted to enlarge our collaboration, was the
whole issue of the trafficking and the use of illegal drugs.
I found that all ministers of health from around the world,
whether it was from Egypt or lsrael or from the United States,
Wales or Mexico, talked about the need for international
co-operation to share best practices and to work together toward
finding more effective ways of dealing with addiction and the
illegal use of drugs.
As the government forges a national drug strategy to respect our
commitment during the election campaign, what better way to make
sure we have the right balance among the intrinsic elements of
that strategy than to put the matter before a committee of the
House and get the best views of members from across the Chamber
as to how we ought to proceed.
In the course of the election campaign we agreed also to devote
some $420 million to support the national drug strategy. What
better way to make sure that money will be well spent than to
solicit the views of members of the House of Commons and have
them look at the alternatives available.
I welcome the motion. I welcome the opportunity it provides in
a non-partisan, constructive way for all members of the House to
make sure that we act in a way that is going to be effective.
The urgency of the issue is obvious. I have some numbers to
underscore that fact. The Canadian Centre on Substance Abuse
tells us that there are 804 deaths per year as a result of
illicit drug use in Canada. The city of Vancouver tells us that
it is now at the point where, primarily because of the problems
in the downtown east side, there are 147 overdose deaths per year
in that city.
We know that in 1999 some 80,000 convictions were registered for
drug offences under the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. We
know this is an increasing problems among young people. Studies
of young Canadians in grades 7 to 13 show an increasing trend in
the use of alcohol, cannabis, amphetamines, ecstasy and cocaine.
This is a trend that cannot be ignored. It must spur us to
action.
There is the cost. Quite apart from the human cost and the
tragedy of wasted lives or wasted opportunities, it is estimated
that in 1992 alcohol abuse and illicit drugs cost the Canadian
economy over $9 billion.
It is in the face of that stark and troubling reality that we
must put together a national strategy for dealing with the
non-medical use of drugs which will make a difference. The
strategy we have had in place since 1997 has four pillars. It
deals with prevention, treatment, enforcement and harm reduction.
It is intended to address both supply and demand and tackles the
issue of substance abuse fundamentally from the perspective of
health. It involves 11 departments of government, from the
solicitor general and justice to foreign affairs and revenue, to
heritage and transport. Each of those departments in their own
way contributes to an overall effort. It involves also the
provincial governments and municipal governments. Each level
must contribute in some way to the solution.
Let me touch briefly upon each of the four elements to give the
House some idea of what we are doing at present and identify the
action that I believe we have to build upon if we are to make a
difference.
First, in terms of prevention, this involves warning and
educating young people, giving them the facts on which they can
make sensible decisions about their own behaviour and their own
conduct.
1305
It also involves research to try to better understand what lies
beneath the use of illicit drugs and indeed the tendency toward
addiction. Are there health or social factors that we should
know more about so that we can design strategies that are more
effective?
I was pleased to see the solicitor general just last year open
up a centre for research into addiction in Montague, Prince
Edward Island so that we can answer some of these questions. Of
course the Canadian Institute of Health Research and the
Institute of Neuroscience, Mental Health and Addiction have been
asked to look at exactly the same things, so that we can further
understand the nature of the problem on an individual basis with
which we are trying to deal.
The second element is treatment. I will draw the attention of
the House to the fact that often these treatment options are best
administered regionally or locally. It is for that reason that
every year my department transfers $14.5 million to the
provincial governments for alcohol and drug treatment and
rehabilitation services. That money is combined with provincial
funds to provide a service capacity on the ground that truly
makes a difference. Apart from that, Health Canada funds
treatment centres for first nations and Inuit people across
Canada who have difficulty with substance abuse and addiction.
We are also funding local projects such as the million dollars
that Health Canada provided for the downtown east side of
Vancouver for the creation of a resource centre, a safe place for
people to go to seek refuge from the street, to have access to
social and health services and to take a time out from the
threatening and very dangerous conditions that are sometimes
found on the streets of that area.
Through the Department of Justice, we have also innovated the
justice system by creating drug courts. In the city of Toronto
special courts have been opened to deal with those who are
charged with offences relating to non-medical drugs in
circumstances where it is believed that intervention to encourage
treatment and rehabilitation is more effective than simply
processing individuals in the criminal system, resulting in a
conviction and incarceration. I can tell the House that based on
what we have learned in Toronto, we are looking at the question
of whether that approach can be broadened to other parts of the
country.
The third element is enforcement. The solicitor general and the
Department of Justice have been developing strategies to focus on
the traffickers of illegal drugs, working with foreign affairs to
identify the sources of the illegal drugs and to find out whether
there are ways working with other nations to choke off those
sources.
The last element is harm reduction where we deal with the human
circumstances of the addict. How can we cure the addiction as
well as punishing the crime? How can we tackle some of the
underlying social and health issues that are related to the
addiction? Mayor Owen of Vancouver has shown particular
leadership on this issue.
Confronted with the tragedy of the downtown east side, Mayor
Owen last fall produced a very thoughtful and comprehensive paper
identifying steps that could be taken in each of the areas of
enforcement, prevention and harm reduction. He identified some
innovative ideas which I understand were just put into final form
by his municipal council the other evening. I intend to meet
soon with Mayor Owen to talk about some of those ideas. I would
also like to have the views of the other parties in the House as
to whether they think that some of the proposals made in Mayor
Owen's report would be helpful.
Let me also mention some of the steps being taken by our
solicitor general in prisons where injection drug use has been
identified as an issue. The solicitor general has been working
with prison administration to try to put into practice some
lessons learned from elsewhere about how to come to grips with
that problem.
I welcome the motion and the initiative that lies behind it.
People speak often about the partisan nature of debate in the
House, but what should be brought to the attention of Canadians
is that there are issues such as this.
1310
There was the issue two weeks ago in relation to assisted human
reproduction, cloning. There are also issues such as the safety
of women in fertility clinics, the framework of principles to
govern research when it comes to embryos, organ donation, illicit
drug use, where all members of the House come to common ground.
We are all worried about our children and our communities. We
see the damage that can be done through the illicit trafficking
in drugs and their use, and we are all focused on solutions that
will work.
I listened with interest to the intervention this morning of the
hon. member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough as he talked
about the American approach. I share his views that the American
style war on drugs with an army-like approach is not proving to
be as effective as it had hoped and that a somewhat more nuanced
and broader approach is needed. I think the elements of the drug
strategy we have been talking about may provide that. Again, let
us get a committee of the House to look at how those elements
could be put together to be as effective as possible.
In fact the recent events in the United States concerning
medical marijuana illustrate in many ways the differences between
us. Members may have noted that just the other day the supreme
court of the United States ruled that medical marijuana would not
be permissible. Two years ago we announced we would make it
available for medicinal purposes. With the assistance of the
courts, we have come to understand better how that can be done
lawfully. We now have proposed regulations that would provide
for that on a very formal basis.
First, that is the way to go. I think it is supported by the
Canadian public and perhaps illustrates some of the differences
between our two countries.
I also listened with interest to the speech by the hon. member
for Palliser this morning. He spoke about the useful work being
done in the other place and regretted the duplication. While the
other place has been doing some work on this, I do not see that
as a reason for us not to act. We can take advantage of the
Senate's work to date. We can perhaps co-ordinate some of the
efforts. However the House has the perfect right as well, and
the responsibility, to do its own work in this regard.
I will conclude by saying that I will support the motion. I
look forward to working constructively with members on all sides
of the House to make sure that we put this issue squarely before
a committee and that we get back from that committee
recommendations that will put us in a position to do the job that
must be done for the Canadian people.
Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Canadian Alliance):
Madam Speaker, while I agree with many things the health minister
has said, I disagree with one thing he said. He indicated that
we were focused. That we are not.
Hon. Elinor Caplan: We are.
Mr. Randy White: Already I am getting an argument, which
is silly.
The fact is we have pilot projects going on all over the place.
There are drug courts in Toronto. There are other areas looking
for drug courts. There are programs of all sorts all over the
place. There are safe shoot up sites.
I am not unduly criticizing the government. Hon. members should
not take it wrong. I am saying we are not focused. That is why
we need a special committee of the House of Commons that would
try to focus on those things. If they cannot even simply agree
with that over there, then there is a problem with the
understanding of what is wrong in Canada.
There are safe shoot up sites. There are needle exchanges in
some places. There are communities in the country that are
looking for needle exchanges but do not know what to do. They do
not know whether needle exchanges are good or bad. Our prisons
are a good example. There is a project in one prison but not in
another prison. Drug cartels are in some prisons but not in
others.
In my opinion the country needs a RITE commission,
rehabilitation, intervention, treatment and enforcement, which
the minister talked about. There are some RITE commissions in
some provinces.
The federal government does not have one. Other provinces do not
have them. Some say they work. Some say they do not.
1315
The exercise here is not to debate whether it works or whether
it does not, it is just to do what the minister said, and that is
to focus what is going on in this country so that we can look at
all the ramifications and all the projects to see if we can get
something conclusive and provide leadership.
In fact, Mayor Owen's proposal said exactly that. I have been
familiar with this proposal for well over six to eight months. I
have been dealing with downtown east side businessmen in
assessing various projects within that project.
I would like a comment from the minister to see if he agrees
with me that it is a problem of focus, not so much a problem of
certain things going astray or certain things not being done. It
is a problem of various communities all over the country really
trying whatever they can to dislodge the problem and not being
sure where they are going.
I would love to have time to debate this one, but I would ask
the minister to comment.
Hon. Allan Rock: Madam Speaker, I do not disagree with
what the member has said, but what we have to overcome is the
tendency in Canada, because of the division of responsibility
between the federal and provincial governments, to have piecemeal
action.
What can easily happen in Canada is that the Government of
Canada can have some ideas in the area of health, the delivery
being a provincial responsibility, but provincial governments
take a different approach and we end up with a patchwork. That
is why we have pilot projects: the Government of Canada cannot
deliver health services. Nor would we want to. That is
provincial. We in the government sometimes fund pilot projects
hoping that we can demonstrate whether something works. If it
does, we make that information available to provinces, which
might adopt the practice.
However, the member is right in that there is a patchwork at the
moment. What we need is a co-ordinated national approach whereby
we bring the provinces on board and come to some common ground as
to how best to prevent, to treat, to deal with enforcement and to
deal with harm reduction.
I would hope that the special committee the member has proposed
today would develop a strategy for an effective, uniform and
pan-Canadian approach so that we do not leave out some people.
Mr. Lynn Myers (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General
of Canada, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I want to compliment the
Minister of Health for his non-partisan tone in terms of setting
the base for what is to be surely a very important debate.
I was a little surprised, though, when listening to the member
for Langley—Abbotsford. I recall that in December 1999 when we
tried and in fact went ahead with putting a research addiction
facility in Charlottetown under correctional services, he opposed
it. He said it was an outrageous thing. Yet in the party
platform of the reformed Alliance people in 2000, they said
“...we will also increase funding for rehabilitation and
education, and treat addicts through immediate access to
rehabilitation facilities”. So again we see the kind of
contradiction that those reformed Alliance people have on this
very important issue.
My question to the Minister of Health is this. He spoke about
the Toronto experiment in terms of treatment and rehabilitation
and how this might be a template, perhaps even a blueprint, for
other centres. I wonder if he could elaborate on that, because
it seems to me that at some of these grassroots kinds of
facilities where community people are involved at the very basis
in a very meaningful way, we end up developing and building
things that could be of national importance.
Hon. Allan Rock: Madam Speaker, I think the experiment in
Toronto can help. I have had correspondence from members of the
criminal bar in Toronto who are very enthusiastic about what we
are learning there. They are asking us, first of all, to
continue in Toronto and then to broaden the experiment beyond
that.
1320
As I mentioned earlier, what it is intended to do is bring
together a number of responses to this problem. I practised law
for some 20 years, and while I did not do a lot of criminal work,
in the early years of my practice I did. I can recall appearing
on behalf of people accused of drug offences who were themselves
addicts. I cannot imagine a less appropriate response to someone
who is in the grip of an addiction than the criminal justice
system. It just does not work. What that person needs is
treatment. What that person needs is support to overcome a
health problem.
That is what we are trying to illustrate in the Toronto drug
courts. I believe that we will learn lessons we can apply in
other parts of the country. I know that the Minister of Justice
is extremely interested in looking at what we are learning there
and if possible broadening it to other parts of the country.
It is an example of what we can learn. It is an example of
where the Government of Canada has a role to play, because we do
bring the prosecutions under the Controlled Drugs and Substances
Act. Whereas ordinarily prosecutions are a provincial matter, in
drug matters they are federal. It is a place where we can make a
difference and we hope we will do so.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Madam Speaker, in keeping with the minister's comments on this
issue of how we create greater synergy between our justice system
and our health system, I would be very interested in hearing his
comments in that regard with respect to current sentencing
availability in our judiciary.
A rational extension of what the minister seems to be alluding
to would be to have available to judges in this country the
equivalent of mandatory treatment. This would also include of
course a significant investment in facilities, treatment
facilities in particular, where attendance would be mandatory.
Rather than having people languishing in the traditional penal
system where in most instances no treatment is available and they
are simply biding their time, mandatory treatment would be part
of that sentence to be served. In such instances an individual,
I would submit, would be far better served, as would society, if
that were to be encompassed as part of the actual sentence
itself.
Not to follow the example of the member opposite with respect to
the partisanship in this debate, because I think it does detract
from this, why are we waiting? What has been the holdup on the
part of governments generally to address this issue?
We do know that there has been good work commenced in the other
place, but this seems to be something of such pressing concern,
something that is so broad, so absolutely systemic now in all
regions of the country, is this not the area where we should be
focusing our attention immediately? This committee would be a
good start, but what has been the delay, other than the thorny
issues, I suppose, that tend to stem from this in Canadians'
minds? We have to start acting with real diligence and real
haste on this issue.
Hon. Allan Rock: Madam Speaker, very briefly, I have been
working with justice, solicitor general and other departments
trying to put some meat on the bones of the election campaign
commitment for a drug strategy. We expect to be coming forward
with a strategy, at least a proposed strategy. I think the
committee that is being proposed today can help us in that
regard.
Second, the member talks about compulsory treatment. I believe
that in the drug court in Toronto that is the kind of approach
they are taking. Obviously having that available in every court
in the appropriate cases would be ideal. Often those social
services are not in place. Sometimes it is a question of money.
Sometimes it is a question of organization.
Let me say very briefly that he is right and that is the ideal
we should work toward. If we get all governments on the same
page and we have the money necessary and the professional
treatment available, I think that would be ideal. I think it is
the best way of responding to someone with an addiction.
1325
Mr. Larry Spencer (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, Canadian
Alliance): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak
to this very important issue. I want to thank my hon. colleague
from Langley—Abbotsford for having the foresight to bring this
motion forward to the Canadian Alliance caucus and I thank my
colleagues there for understanding its importance and choosing it
for today's supply day motion.
I speak to this with sincerity and with the earnest concern that
we move forward on this. I am very pleased to hear the comments
in support of the motion from the government side of the House.
It makes me very happy to feel that we can work together on some
things and move forward.
I entered the political arena last fall in the election
campaign. One thing I addressed in my campaign was the idea of
public safety in regard to crime, young offenders and those kinds
of things, so I speak to this in an effort to respond to my
constituents in Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre.
I would like to share a couple of stories because when we talk
about drugs and the use of illicit drugs we are talking about the
impacts on lives. I am thinking of a friend of my youngest son
who played on the same sports teams. They were both quite
talented in their pursuit of sports. That young lad became
entangled in drug usage before completing high school. It went
on for a number of years. Now in his early twenties, he is
hopefully just beginning to come out of the problem he has had
with illicit drugs. I spent time talking with his parents. Their
hearts ached when they saw their young son going through that.
I think of other families in my town with whom I have spent
time, families with children of high school age who would lie in
bed for hours and hours on end refusing to get up because of the
drugs they had been on. I think of another friend who was a very
special friend to me. I had the pleasure of uniting him and his
wife in marriage, working with his family and seeing it grow.
However, as time went on I saw the drug habit he could not shake
finally destroy the family. He is one of those who ended up in
prison because of his efforts to support his drug habit.
It has been almost 28 years since the Commission of Inquiry into
Non-Medical Use of Drugs tabled the Le Dain report. It addressed
many good issues and contained many good recommendations, but we
all know that times have changed drastically since 1973. The
proliferation of drugs in our society and the ease with which
they can be obtained is not news to any of us. We see it
wherever we go.
Recently the United Nations' International Narcotics Control
Board tabled its annual report. The report found a disturbing
increase in the production and abuse of synthetic drugs in
Canada. The report found that the illicit manufacturing of
methamphetamine has increased in the past year. Law enforcement
agencies have uncovered a record number of production
laboratories throughout our own country.
It is clear that Canada does need an updated, comprehensive
strategy to deal with the significant problem we have in our
country today. Our supply day motion asks the government to deal
comprehensively with this complex issue by establishing the
committee. I say again that I am thrilled to hear that the
government agrees with this.
There are few things that make me angry and there are times when
it is okay to be angry. Members may have heard the story that it
is okay to be angry if we are angry in the right way at the right
or the wrong things. I am angry because of the tragedies I have
referred to that are being brought about in our families in
Canada.
1330
It makes me angry that there are people out there who make their
living by selling drugs and destroying lives. It also makes me
angry to see people willingly or for some unknown reason become
so involved in drug use that they are a burden to society.
It makes me angry to have to spend the money we do on
prevention. It makes me angry that society must do so for a
relatively few people. It makes me angry to spend money to
enforce regulations that are for these people's own good.
The costs, manpower, time and facilities required for rehab and
treatment attempts make me angry. However getting angry about a
situation means it is time to do all one can to remedy it.
In the year 1997-98, in Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, just under
4,000 people were treated in the drug and alcohol treatment
centres of Regina. A recent report looked at alcohol and drug
abuse in the Regina health district. It found that the most
commonly abused drugs in North American cities are readily
obtained on the streets of little old Regina, in the middle of
the prairies where it is supposed to be safe to live. The drugs
most often used are a combination of both Talwin and Ritalin,
sometimes referred to as the poor man's heroin.
The report stated that injection drug usage is quite common,
methadone is available on the streets and illicit drug use is a
considerable factor in many violent and property crimes in
Regina. The figures would go higher but we cannot include those
that relate to young offenders.
I will read from an article that appeared in the Regina
Leader Post in February. It stated:
Recently, a United Nations agency has criticized Canada for its
lax attitude toward illegal growers of cannabis and failure to
control illicit production of drugs such as “ice” and
“ecstasy”.
The report finds a disturbing increase in the production and
abuse of synthetic drugs in Canada.
The illicit manufacture of methamphetamine—or ice—has
increased, it says. In the past year, law enforcement agencies
have uncovered a record number of clandestine laboratories.
Some labs producing MDMA—or ecstasy—were found in middle-class
suburban neighbourhoods, especially in central Canada. The
laboratories were run by people with no criminal records or
connections.
In its annual report Herbert Schaepe, the board's secretary,
said: “The board is not happy with the controls established in
Canada; the Canadian government is not yet controlling, for
example, one of the main precursors of methamphetamine—ice”.
Precursors are substances used in the processing or manufacture
of narcotic drugs.
The board is calling on Canada to make greater efforts to comply
with its obligations, under the 1988 UN convention against
illicit drugs, to prevent “Canadian territory from being used to
divert chemicals for the illicit manufacture of drugs in other
countries”.
The UN report says there has been an increase in the amount of
cocaine and heroin smuggled into Canada from countries such as
Mexico. Last year, Canadian law enforcement agencies intercepted
156 kilograms of heroin.
I am happy to stand and speak to the supply day motion brought
forth by my Alliance colleagues. The hon. parliamentary
secretary some moments ago mentioned the Canadian Alliance policy
on drugs and crime.
1335
I will point out a couple of things from our policy paper. It
mentions that one of every two federal inmates in Canada were
under the influence of alcohol or drugs when they committed the
crime for which they were incarcerated. Fifty per cent were on
drugs or alcohol.
We need a national strategy to reduce drug usage, one that works
in partnership with provincial and municipal governments and
incorporates strategies at the community level. This proposal
comes directly out of the Canadian Alliance policy paper. The
Alliance favours working with the provinces to develop and
implement a national drug strategy that will work effectively at
the street level. The street level is where a lot of work needs
to be done.
Recently I was privileged to hear a police chief from the United
States of America outline what happens in the downward spiral of
a community. He pointed out that when a criminal or drug element
goes into a community the community at first tolerates and lives
with it, although not with pleasure or willingness, but after a
period of tolerance it tends to become apathetic.
Tolerance is one thing but apathy is another. It is a downward
step where the community stops caring about what is going on. It
begins to trust the criminal element as much as it does the law
enforcement element. It becomes apathetic to what is going on.
In the next downward step the community begins to defend the
criminal activity. We see that over and over again. Communities
begin to defend not only the criminal element but the use of
drugs. This needs to be addressed by the committee so that it
can deal with community attitudes and help create a more
unfriendly environment for those who do hard core drugs and
traffic drugs to our youth.
The Alliance policy paper points out our desire to work in
partnership with the provinces to promote the use of drug courts.
A number of members opposite have mentioned the Toronto drug
court and I will say a little about that in a moment. However,
parliament needs to address these concerns.
The Toronto drug court is the first of its kind in Canada. I
understand it is patterned after similar things in the United
States. It is a joint venture involving the Ontario court of
justice, the Department of Justice, the Government of Canada's
national strategy on community safety and crime prevention, the
Centre For Addiction and Mental Health, Toronto based
representatives of the criminal justice system, the Toronto
police service, Toronto public health, and various city and
community based services and agencies. It is funded by the
national strategy on community safety and crime prevention as a
pilot project.
This does not relate to the committee we are talking about
establishing. However, I have visited the drug court and it
seems to have been very successful. I hope the hon. Minister of
Health is aware that funding for the project is nearing the end.
If funding is not extended before the end of the trial period it
will have to stop admitting patients.
1340
I would encourage the extension of the drug court because it
seems a helpful and pleasant program. The drug court brings
together elements within the community. I was amazed when the
Toronto drug court told us the number of agencies and people that
have worked together to assist it.
Let us get back to our job here as members of parliament. We
need to view the work of the committee as something very
important. I hope the committee will be given the freedom to
look at all aspects of the issue and at legislation. We are
sometimes hesitant to move and do things differently but the
committee needs that freedom. It needs to look at strategy and
determine if there are better approaches.
It was mentioned a moment ago that the war on drugs in the
United States has not worked very well. However the answer is
not to simply throw it away and legalize everything. The answer
is somewhere in between. It is my hope that the proposed
committee will examine all possibilities and develop better
approaches for enforcing or adjusting drug laws as needed.
Penalties, treatments and all these things need to be worked
through but they need to be worked through with a sense of
responsibility, urgency and co-operation.
In closing I will say a bit more about the Toronto drug
treatment court. It is my hope, as I mentioned earlier, that
this model will be extended to a broader range of things than
simply drug treatment courts. We could apply it to young
offenders and some elements of the criminal code.
It was my privilege to sit in on a healing circle in Wilcox,
Saskatchewan a few weeks ago which has taken this approach with
young offenders. Young offenders are brought into the presence
of their peers, teachers and those in authority, and each person
is given the opportunity to state how the crime affected them. It
was very positive to see that.
I will skip a full description of the drug court but let me say
that after being in the drug court a couple of weeks ago it was
not like being in court. It is like the difference between a
funeral and a wedding. This was more like a wedding. There was
celebration. One young lady came in very excited because she had
gotten through another week without succumbing to the temptation
of drugs. The judge commended her. The other offenders who were
sitting awaiting their turn all cheered and clapped. It was a
real joy to see them celebrate that victory with her.
I then saw one who had failed. He came before the judge and had
to admit his failures. The judge had to address his failures.
There was no defiance or anger when the offender received his
warning. He went out of there determined to try again to do what
he needed to do.
I commend the government for these kinds of projects. This type
of committee needs to look at these solutions and extend them as
much as it can. We put too many people in jail who simply come
out madder. I would love to pursue these kinds of things through
this type of committee.
Mr. Lynn Myers (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General
of Canada, Lib.): Madam Speaker, it is refreshing and
enlightening to hear the member opposite talk about the good work
being done in Toronto by the drug court. He made some very wise
comments.
Obviously he has studied the matter and understands it. He is to
be congratulated for bringing that enlightened view. It is rare
among the Alliance people.
1345
I also congratulate him in terms of the recognition of alcohol
and drugs and the role they play with respect to criminal
activity. It underscores the good work that Correctional Service
Canada is doing in this all important area dealing with
rehabilitation and working with inmates in a very meaningful way.
It underscores the need to ensure that the right things are done
with the programs that are in place so that the chances are there
for people to reform, improve and do the kinds of things that are
required. I want to indicate to the member that those points
were very well taken.
I have two questions for the hon. member. First, does the hon.
member personally support the medical use of marijuana in Canada
as it has been proposed? Second, does he support the city of
Vancouver's proposal for safe injection sites? Those are two
fairly straightforward questions and I would be interested in the
hon. member's views.
Mr. Larry Spencer: Madam Speaker, those are two more
things that make me angry because they put me in a position of
having to choose between the lesser evil. I have been slow to
adjust my thinking. I have come to the conclusion that a number
of medically prescribed drugs are also addictive and if misused
can be totally out of place in a person's life. I am not an
enthusiastic supporter of cannabis for medical purposes but I
understand the wisdom of it and can live with it.
I am sorry but I forgot the other question.
Mr. Lynn Myers: Madam Speaker, it was with respect to the
city of Vancouver's safe injection sites.
Mr. Larry Spencer: Madam Speaker, that too is hard for me
to live with. Again it is one of the lesser evils for which I
am trying to learn the advantages. I ask the member to bear with
me.
Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Canadian Alliance): Madam
Speaker, I also commend the hon. member for his comments and his
presentation this afternoon.
We need to recognize another point. We heard the Minister of
Health and other members this morning say that we have to study
this problem. We have had people explain in detail how serious
the problem really is. The hon. member who just spoke has a
tremendous background in the business of dealing with people,
particularly in a pastoral sense. I believe that in another life
he knew all about those kinds of things.
Are we dealing here with a situation where people are unwilling
to face the reality of the situation? We had a drug policy in
1987 and 1996. We have had laws changed and programs introduced.
We have had all kinds of things happening, yet the use of illicit
drugs in our society has increased.
Obviously the programs and policies are not working and the law
is not working. Could one of the reasons be that people do not
want it to work? We talk about and we lament the fact that
families are being broken up and that people's lives are being
destroyed. However, are we really serious about dealing with the
problem?
Is this kind of committee a way in which we can sensitize
society to finally admit that we have a problem and that it is
society's problem. We have come to the point where we are saying
that it is a problem but that it is not our problem. I wonder if
what we need as parents, as leaders in the community, as pastors
and as teachers is a shift in attitude. Would the hon. member
respond to that?
1350
Mr. Larry Spencer: Madam Speaker, that was exactly what I
was referring to when I spoke about the decline of a community.
It goes from tolerance to apathy to defence. I believe we could
demonstrate that it has happened in terms of drug usage, not in
an overall total way but in a very spotted way. We have those who
would now defend, who do not care and who tolerate, but I believe
the committee would really need to take a strong look in order to
give us the actual truth as to the dangers of these drugs.
Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Canadian Alliance):
Madam Speaker, a little while ago the Parliamentary Secretary to
the Solicitor General of Canada, who tends to be far to the
partisan side in the House, which is bad for the debate,
indicated that I was against the development of a drug research
centre in Prince Edward Island.
The reason for my opposition was that millions of dollars would
be put into the wrong thing. A building, which would last 40
years, would be built in order to study something that could be
studied in our universities, in the House of Commons or somewhere
else. We should be looking at education, rehabilitation,
detoxification and so on.
Once a report is tabled in the House of Commons by the
committee, what would the member expect would happen to the
report? I sincerely hope the report would not come here to
collect dust. It is far too important for that. I would like to
get an indication from him as to the value of the report.
Mr. Larry Spencer: Madam Speaker, one of the values I
hope would come from such a report would be the opportunity for
us to address some of the gaps in legislation. During my speech
I did not have enough time to give the list that I received from
the Toronto drug court crown prosecutor. He indicated a number
of gaps in the legislation that needed to be amended in order to
properly operate such an alternative court system.
There needs to be a willingness to make some adjustments in the
legislation. I hope that as the report comes out it would make
adjustments at every level to what we are doing. The report
cannot sit on somebody's shelf to get stale after two or three
years. I hope it would be a report that would stir parliament to
action.
Mr. Randy White: Madam Speaker, I have dealt with many
young kids in the country who need help today.
One young lady, a 14 year old named Angel, came off the streets.
She had been in 22 foster homes before she entered a particular
facility in British Columbia. The trouble is that she has to
leave that facility after 14 weeks or so and, because there are
no long term rehabilitation facilities, she will be put back into
a foster home.
What does my colleague see as the answer for young people who
are on the street and need treatment? Where do they go? What
kind of resources are required? Do we need to spend some money
on this issue?
Mr. Larry Spencer: Madam Speaker, obviously we will have
to spend some money. I recently saw a lady in Wilcox,
Saskatchewan, who was about to retire from the RCMP. She sat as
the facilitator for a community group. They brought in the young
offender and those around him. They allowed community peer
pressure to come to bear on the young person. Those are the
kinds of things that are needed.
1355
Mr. Lynn Myers (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General
of Canada, Lib.): Madam Speaker, this is a very important
debate and I want to start by saying that Canada's drug strategy
reflects a very careful balance. I will be splitting my time
with the member for Vancouver Kingsway.
This careful balance between reducing the supply of drugs and
reducing the demand for illicit drugs is very important. In
Canada the abuse of drugs is recognized as primarily a health
issue. Nevertheless it includes a very important enforcement
component.
Drug enforcement continues to be recognized as an important
aspect of our drug strategy because efforts to reduce the harm
caused by drugs would be hampered by an environment of
unrestricted supply. For example, studies have shown that one of
the major causes of drug abuse among youth is simple
availability. Enforcement activities then help to maintain a
level of control over availability. Supply reduction creates an
environment in which drug prevention can succeed.
In this regard the nature and focus of drug enforcement should
be emphasized. Often we have heard references to a war on drugs.
However law enforcement has not adopted this process. The focus
of enforcement efforts is instead on high level criminals that
supply illicit drugs rather than on individual users. For
individual users the focus is on prevention, treatment and
rehabilitation.
The enforcement component is seen as complementary to
prevention, treatment and rehabilitation efforts. Specific
efforts have been made to bring these components together. I
refer in particular to the health and enforcement partnership
network which was formed in 1994. This network brings together
representatives of the health and enforcement fields to encourage
collaborative efforts in addressing substance abuse issues.
The need for a balanced approach toward drugs has been
specifically recognized by police forces in Canada. For example,
I refer members to “Taking a balanced approach: Canada's Drug
Policy from the National Police Perspective”, which is on the
RCMP website.
I also refer members to the Canadian Association of Chiefs of
Police drug policy resolution from 1999 in which the CACP, while
standing firmly opposed to the legalization of illicit drugs,
specifically endorsed a “balanced approach of prevention,
education, enforcement, counselling, treatment, rehabilitation
and diversion to counter Canada's drug problems”. That is an
enlightened view consistent with the values of Canadians and
consistent with the values of the government in terms of how we
want to see this very terrible problem tackled.
In addition, speaking of police services and forces, I should
note that joint force operations involving various Canadian
enforcement agencies and those of other countries are employed
frequently during anti-drug operations. Recently we have seen
very successful operations take place. We applaud all those
involved, especially our police services that have done such a
good job in this very important area.
Police are involved in drug prevention efforts. I mention
specifically the RCMP drug awareness service which provides
education, training, programs and co-ordination on substance
abuse issues in communities across Canada. The focus of Canada's
enforcement efforts is against high level drug suppliers rather
than individual users.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[Translation]
CANADIAN RANGERS
Mr. Jean-Guy Carignan (Québec East, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I take
this opportunity, as Aboriginal Awareness Week will be held from
May 21 to 25, to draw attention to the singular, and too often
ignored, contribution made by aboriginal people through the
Canadian Rangers program.
Under the Rangers Program, which was established in 1942, there
are currently close to 3,000 aboriginal people maintaining a
military presence in this country's remote regions.
1400
In addition to affirming Canadian sovereignty, the Rangers are
always available to provide invaluable assistance in the event
of a disaster.
As active and involved members of their community, program
participants, moreover, often serve as role models for
aboriginal youth.
The Canadian Forces have a long and proud history of
accomplishments in the Canadian far north. Without the Rangers,
it would be difficult for our military personnel to provide
humanitarian assistance to the people who live in our sparsely
populated northern regions.
Not only are the Rangers the eyes and ears of the community;
they are also vital members of the Canadian Forces.
* * *
[English]
AGRICULTURE
Mr. David Anderson (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, throughout Alberta and western
Saskatchewan farmers are facing a potential drought that could
knock out any hope of producing a crop this summer. Some areas,
especially in eastern Alberta, have had a shortage of moisture
for well over a year.
Cattlemen are already telling us that they will have to sell off
cows due to a lack of groundwater. Yesterday, as it has done for
the last few weeks, the wind blew. It blew until there were dust
storms with blizzard like conditions and in some areas visibility
was down to 100 yards.
Meteorologists are already anticipating that this widespread
drought could be the worst drought we have seen in 100 years.
Given the Liberal government's previous slow response to
agricultural issues, I would like to ask the government the
following questions: Is the government aware of this potential
crisis? Does Agriculture Canada have an action plan in place to
help those farmers affected by a drought? Will it be too late
before this government takes any action?
* * *
GOVERNMENT OF BRITISH COLUMBIA
Mr. John Harvard (Charleswood St. James—Assiniboia,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Government of Canada, I
would like to extend sincere congratulations to the new Premier
of British Columbia, Gordon Campbell, and to his new caucus.
The size of the election victory provides a strong mandate for
the new government of British Columbia. This will mark the
beginning of a new era in British Columbia.
This is the first time in 49 years that a Liberal Party has been
in government in British Columbia. We express our sincere best
wishes for success during its term of office, and we look forward
to working with the new government.
* * *
OLYMPIC GAMES
Mr. Irwin Cotler (Mount Royal, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
Canadians were pleased to learn that Toronto, along with Paris
and Beijing, is one of three cities in the running to host the
2008 Olympic games. However it is regrettable that the decision
to award the Olympic games appears unrelated to issues of
human rights.
For this decision to come at a time when China is engaged in the
most persistent and pervasive assault on human rights since
Tiananmen Square sends the wrong message to those anywhere
concerned with the protection of peace and human dignity, an
objective of the Olympic charter itself.
In a word, awarding the Olympic games to China turns the
struggle for human rights on its head. It not only does not hold
China accountable for the most egregious human rights violations
but it even confers retrospective legitimacy upon it. It sends
the disturbing signal that not only can human rights be violated
with impunity but countries can even be rewarded for it. Such a
decision can only breed cynicism in a world that has too much
indifference and not enough moral courage.
Beijing might be a good place, but not now, not until it
comports with the basic principles of the Olympic charter
regarding the protection of human security. For 2008, Toronto
would be the better choice.
* * *
GOVERNMENT OF NEW BRUNSWICK
Mr. Andy Savoy (Tobique—Mactaquac, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
two days ago the Conference Board of Canada released its
publication “Provincial Outlook”.
The conference board specifically cited a continuing weakness in
construction activity as dampening real growth in New Brunswick.
In yesterday's Globe and Mail write-up, New Brunswick was
even branded as an economic “laggard”. They stated, and I
quote:
In both years, the biggest laggard will be New Brunswick where a
three-year string of declines in construction activity is
undermining the province's ability to gather momentum.
Although I fully endorse the Government of New Brunswick's
commitment to fiscal responsibility, I call on the premier to use
some of their $100 million in rainy day fund on highway
construction and help New Brunswick in the upcoming tough
economic times.
New highways will create much needed jobs. New highways will
help New Brunswick weather hard economic times, but most
importantly, new highways will help save lives.
* * *
GOVERNMENT OF BRITISH COLUMBIA
Mrs. Betty Hinton (Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys,
Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, it is with great pleasure
that I rise in the House today to congratulate two constituents
of mine who yesterday won seats in the British Columbia
legislature.
Kevin Krueger was easily re-elected to his seat for
Kamloops—North Thompson. Claude Richmond, a former Socred
cabinet minister, is the new MLA for Kamloops.
I am certain these two fine individuals will be excellent
representatives for my people and my riding and I look forward to
working with them.
1405
For the first time in a decade, my home province of British
Columbia will be governed by a party espousing the free
enterprise principles of the Canadian Alliance. Lower taxes,
smaller responsible government, free votes and a set election
date will all soon be law in B.C.
The government across the way should take note of the
overwhelming majority of British Columbians who cast their
ballots for common sense government.
* * *
SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
Mr. Larry McCormick (Hastings—Frontenac—Lennox and
Addington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the Canada-wide science fair
is an annual national exhibition of outstanding science and
technology projects created by Canadian youth in grades 7 to OAC
and is the premiere event of the Youth Science Foundation of
Canada.
This year's science fair, entitled, “A Science Odyssey through
the Thousand Islands”, is being held from May 12 to May 20 at
Queen's University in Kingston.
Students have committed many long hours to the conception and
design of their projects. This event offers them a remarkable
opportunity to showcase their hard work while exploring a number
of exciting areas of science and technology.
Participants have entered and won their local, regional and
provincial competitions; accomplishments that clearly reflect an
understanding of their projects and their scientific importance.
I am sure, and I know the hon. member for Kingston and the
Islands will agree, that those involved with the Canada-wide
science fair will experience a memorable time in Kingston.
I would like to congratulate the organizers of this event and
wish the participants every success. I hope hon. members will
visit their young constituents in Kingston for this event.
* * *
[Translation]
BERNADETTE RENAUD
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
recently, during la Quinzaine du livre de Contrecoeur, a two-week
celebration of books in the municipality of that name, located
in the riding I have the honour and pleasure of representing in
this House, the municipal authorities acknowledged the literary
contribution made by Bernadette Renaud, throughout her 25 year
career, which has been prolific, to say the least.
Among the works Bernadette Renaud has authored during her
impressive career, which has been marked with numerous
prestigious awards, are children's books, textbooks, and
children's theatre productions, as well as a number of film and
television scripts for such programs as Bach et Bottine and
Watatatow.
It may be mere chance, but her decision 25 years ago to settle
in Contrecoeur coincided with the start of her brilliant writing
career. The people of Contrecoeur are extremely proud of their
fellow citizen and author of the trilogy Un homme comme tant
d'autres.
Congratulations, Madame Renaud, for the quality of the timeless
works you have given us so far. We can hardly wait to see what
else is going to come from your pen in future. Thank you very
much.
* * *
[English]
SPIELO GAMING INTERNATIONAL
Mr. Dominic LeBlanc (Beauséjour—Petitcodiac, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I rise to congratulate Mr. Jon Manship, the chief
executive officer of Spielo Gaming International of Moncton, New
Brunswick, for being selected as one of Canada's top 40 under 40.
This prestigious award honours the achievements of a new
generation of leaders in business, the professions, academia and
public service.
Mr. Manship is a most deserving recipient of this award. He has
built an impressive, new economy business in Moncton which
employs hundreds of people and exports its products and
technology around the world.
My colleague, the Minister of Labour, has done a great deal to
support this important business in southeastern New Brunswick and
she joins me in expressing our congratulations to Mr. Manship and
his team at Spielo Gaming International.
* * *
JESSICA KOOPMANS
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker,
as the grandfather of four grandchildren, including five year old
Kayla, my heart is grieved over what happened to Jessica Koopmans
in Lethbridge. This five year old was innocently on her way to
her friend's house when she was abducted and brutally murdered.
How could anyone so violently attack a little girl? It is
totally beyond comprehension. The person who did this is really
sick.
While the federal government dithers on a registry of sexual
offenders and child molestors, the provincial governments are
going ahead to set up their own. However it would be much better
to have a nationwide registry since it would track offenders
everywhere instead of just in their home province. Alberta is
fast-tracking the setting up of such a registry, following the
lead of Ontario and British Columbia.
I cannot understand why the federal government is doing nothing
to set up a national registry to protect our children. It would
make a great deal more sense than registering the long guns of
law-abiding citizens who go hunting in fall.
* * *
BRAIN TUMOURS
Mr. Joseph Volpe (Eglinton—Lawrence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
each year approximately 10,000 Canadians will be diagnosed with
primary or metastatic brain tumour.
1410
The Canadian Alliance of Brain Tumour Organizations is in
Ottawa this week to raise awareness of the impact of this most
debilitating and too frequently fatal disease. Brain tumours
afflict young and old alike. Early diagnosis of course is
crucial to treatment, yet the incidence and rate of death from
brain tumours has increased dramatically since 1960.
Regrettably, reliable information regarding brain tumours is
both scattered and uncoordinated. This makes it difficult to
make proper assessments or to prepare proposals for research, and
research is required. Some estimates put the number of new
people diagnosed with primary brain tumours at above 5,000 per
year.
Health Canada and the Canadian Cancer Society need to set aside
resources in order to establish an effective data gathering
system. As well, I encourage Health Canada, the Medical Research
Council of Canada and other funding agencies to allocate moneys
for research in combating this most deadly and debilitating of
diseases.
* * *
CAPE BRETONERS
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Mr. Speaker, New Democrats across the country
are feeling very sad for the good people of Cape Breton with the
announcement yesterday by the Minister of Natural Resources to
close the last operating mine, the Prince Mine. This will throw
440 hardworking men and their families out on the streets again.
The provincial Tories went after them on the Sydney steel. The
federal Liberal Party left them with the worst toxic site in all
of Canada, with the highest rates of cancer in all of Canada, and
it will not even move those people to safer grounds. Now it is
again throwing the hardworking people of Cape Breton out on the
streets.
What is worse is that in the last election Liberal after Liberal
told the people of Cape Breton “Just vote for us and we will
take care of you”. What an absolutely misleading truth that
was. The Liberals of Canada misled the good people of Canada.
I want to tell the good people of Cape Breton here and now that
they can always count on provincial and federal New Democrats
across the country to stand up for the people of Cape Breton once
and for all.
* * *
[Translation]
JEAN BESRÉ AWARD
Mr. Serge Cardin (Sherbrooke, BQ): Mr. Speaker, on March 14,
Sherbrooke, the Eastern Townships and all of Quebec lost one of
their most remarkable sons, Jean Besré.
Jean Besré was a well known comedian and a great humanist. He
was active in all sorts of organizations, including the Little
Brothers of the Poor and the telethon for the CHUS foundation,
in Sherbrooke.
To honour the memory of this great volunteer, the CHUS
foundation has created the Prix reconnaissance Jean-Besré. This
award has just been granted to television hostess France
Beaudoin, who was born in the Eastern Townships and who hosted
the telethon for several years.
Incidentally, Ms. Beaudoin said that she was sharing this award
with all those who worked behind the scenes to produce this
special program.
Ms. Beaudoin is like Jean Besré who, throughout his life, showed
great and very unassuming generosity toward his community.
On behalf of my Bloc Quebecois colleagues, I offer Ms. Beaudoin
our sincere congratulations.
* * *
[English]
THE ECONOMY
Mr. John McCallum (Markham, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have a
word or two about the Canadian Alliance's call for an early
budget. At least when we get off Parliament Hill people care
more about actions than words. In terms of actions, it is
abundantly clear that the measures taken last October, including
the largest tax cut in Canadian history, constituted maxi action
or maxi budget.
We could call these budget measures an economic statement or a
mini budget if we wished. If it would make us feel happier we
could even call it a hippopotamus or a stockwell day, and I use
that term—
The Speaker: That sounded very much like a name. I
assume the hon. member knows he is referring to the Leader of the
Opposition.
Mr. John McCallum: Mr. Speaker, I was using that word in
the generic, uncapitalized version. In any event, my point is
that words do not matter. The only thing that really matters is
that these budget actions were maxi actions that will carry us
through for another year.
* * *
PENSION PLANS
Mr. Norman Doyle (St. John's East, PC): Mr. Speaker, the
nation's police and firefighters face daily dangers in their
service to the public that can exact a heavy toll on their lives
and their families. In recognition of that fact, police,
firefighters and other public safety officers have the ability to
retire early. However that means many of them retire with less
than the usual 70% of what they had been earning.
1415
In an effort to correct that problem, firefighters and police
have been asking government to change income tax regulations to
allow them a pension approval rate of 2.33% as compared to the
usual 2%.
I call upon the Minister of Finance to make this regulatory
change so as to provide full and fair recognition of the service
that our firefighters and police make to the rest of us in the
community at large.
* * *
EMPLOYMENT
Ms. Sophia Leung (Vancouver Kingsway, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I am pleased to announce that over 70 student jobs will be
created in my riding of Vancouver Kingsway through the HRDC
summer student employment program.
With over 26 different employers in my riding this program will
help the many community groups with their summer staffing
requirements while providing valuable summer work experience for
the young people of Vancouver Kingsway. Without the help of the
federal government, those jobs would not be available.
I congratulate HRDC for continuing the funding of this important
program. We wish all students and community groups involved in
the program success this summer.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
THE ECONOMY
Mr. Stockwell Day (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, this morning the Minister of Finance
released a five year target and forecast for the rate of
inflation. I do not mind saying that was the right thing to do,
but he did not release a report showing a five year projection
for taxing and spending.
In light of the fact that some economists at least are saying we
could be hitting a deficit within three years, will the Minister
of Finance do the right thing and return to the good habit he was
just getting into of tabling five year projections?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I made it very clear at the meeting this morning that we
were not going into deficit. There is an ample cushion to
protect us against any kind of an eventuality. However I would
simply like to quote an eminent economist who said the following:
Much more weight should be placed on...forecasts, over the two
year budget horizon than over the five year planning horizon. Not
only is there more immediate accountability, the economic and
fiscal forecasts are much more reliable.
That is what he said. Interestingly enough this is by WEFA.
Mr. Stockwell Day (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I am glad the minister is reading our
stuff. It is good stuff. It goes on to say that we encourage
him to return to a precedent he was making, and that was five
year forecasting.
The numbers just released show that spending has increased by
8%. That is the same rate of increase in spending that we saw
when the Prime Minister was finance minister under Mr. Trudeau,
and we know where that took us. What can the finance minister
tell us about how he will curb this vicious increase in spending?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, first, the fact is that the hon. member's numbers are
wrong. Second, I would like to quote a couple of things.
Who was the treasurer of Alberta when program spending increased
by 28.6% in a three year period? Who was the treasurer of
Alberta who presided over the largest one year increase in
program spending of any Alberta finance minister since 1985-86? I
have more, Mr. Speaker.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. It is very difficult to hear
the question. The hon. Leader of the Opposition has the floor
and has another question.
Mr. Stockwell Day (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I will simply ask the Minister of
Finance, because we are looking at $15.5 billion of overspending
in the last four years, who the treasurer in Alberta was when
spending was increased at the same time as the net debt was
brought to zero and a single rate of taxes brought in.
1420
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Dinning.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
The Speaker: Order, please. Now we want to hear the
answer.
Hon. Paul Martin: I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if it was the
same person who brought in $2.3 billion in unbudgeted program
spending during his three years as Alberta's finance minister.
Who was the treasurer of Alberta who brought in the largest
unbudgeted spending bill of any Alberta finance minister since
1986?
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, this is the finance minister who has presided over
the incredible shrinking surplus from $20 billion to $15 billion
because of $5 billion in over budget spending. This finance
minister has overspent by $15 billion in the past four years and
will continue overspending if he does not take control of the
demands around the cabinet table.
Will he not admit that every additional dollar in new spending
is a dollar taken away from working families for tax relief and
from our economic future in terms of debt repayment? Why will he
not get his priorities right?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, let us take a look at where the bulk of the increases
took place: in health care spending, following the largest
transfer to the provinces; the largest increases in equalization
transfers to the less well off provinces in Canada's history; and
increases in old age pensions and servicing elderly Canadians.
I would simply ask the finance critic which of those he would
cut.
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, the finance minister does not understand that it is
possible to control spending instead of going back to the levels
of spending set by the Prime Minister when he was finance
minister which drove the country into deficit.
Many senior economists have said that we are headed for a
planning deficit within four years. The finance minister has not
given us an adequate response. Will he guarantee to the House
today that we will not end up with a planning deficit that eats
into our emergency surpluses, our emergency reserves? Will he
give us a commitment now that we will not go back into deficit at
any point by eating into the emergency reserves?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, if we look at the projections that were made last year,
if we look at the cushions and if we look at the protection of
the contingency reserve, it is patently clear to anyone who wants
to understand the numbers that the cushions are there.
Let me simply say the hon. member refers to the spending that
has taken place under the Prime Minister. When we took office in
1993 our program spending was $120 billion. Today, eight years
later, our program spending is $120 billion.
* * *
[Translation]
OFFICIAL LANGUAGES
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in the
future, in Quebec, it will be the mother tongue of the majority,
whether French or English, which determines whether those
districts in Montreal not already bilingual will become so.
The official languages commissioner, backed by the Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs, is proposing the criterion of
language spoken at home, which would change the linguistic
balance to the detriment of Quebec's francophones.
Will the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs admit that, by
backing Dyane Adam's request, he is hindering the development of
the French fact in Quebec?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I am not backing anything at all. It is perhaps
difficult for the leader of the Bloc Quebecois to understand,
but Canada operates under the rule of law.
When the official languages commissioner asked to be heard by
the court, it was up to the judge to determine whether or not
her request would be granted. He decided to hear her. As for
the legal value of what she has to say, it will be up to the
judge, not the leader of the Bloc Quebecois or myself, to
decide.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, before
the passage of Bill 171, Quebecers who did not speak French at
home were automatically considered anglophones, even if they
were not. The government of Quebec merely passed legislation to
eliminate this distortion, without changing the existing
situation of the anglophone community.
Will the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs admit that, by
encouraging the status quo, he is advocating that the provision
of municipal services in English no longer be based on the
linguistic reality in Quebec?
1425
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, since we are speaking about the rule of law, the
supreme court ruled that it was legitimate to wish to promote
and defend French in Quebec.
But it is also legitimate to take into account the rights of
anglophones in Quebec. As Canadians, both Quebec's francophones
and anglophones are entitled to the protection of the Canadian
Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It will be up to the judge to
determine whether the arguments of the official languages
commissioner are legally valid or not.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, let us
take a hard look at the situation. If we were to keep the old
criterion of language spoken at home, we would find ourselves in
the ridiculous situation where a Quebecer who spoke Portuguese
at home would be considered an anglophone for the purpose of
determining the level of services to be provided to citizens.
Is the minister prepared to admit that using the criterion of
language spoken at home rather than mother tongue would mean
that anyone whose mother tongue is neither French nor English
would be considered an anglophone? He is the minister
responsible and he should give us an answer.
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Once
again, Mr. Speaker, when the Premier of Quebec intervened
yesterday, it was not to say that he disagreed with the official
languages commissioner, but to say that she did not have the
right to interfere in Quebec's jurisdiction, supposedly because
Quebec is a nation.
My view is that, if the concept of nation becomes a sort of wall
separating us as Quebecers from other Canadians, that is to
distort the meaning of the word nation in French and in English.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, rather
than see walls where there are none, the minister should
consider that the situation in Quebec is one of great mutual
respect when it comes to the linguistic rights of anglophones
and the status of French as a common language.
In 1992, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs wrote that
the best solution would be a unilateral devolution of powers
with respect to language solely in the Quebec legislature and
enforced solely in Quebec's territory.
Does he admit that Quebec's actions are entirely consistent with
the proposal he himself made in 1992?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, except that since then, former Chief Justice
Dickson, former Chief Justice Lamer, and the current Chief
Justice of the Supreme Court of Canada have said that Quebec was
a distinct society and recognized as such in law in the court's
decisions.
In this regard, we know that what gives Quebec society its
distinct nature is that everyone is a minority in that province.
Anglophones are a minority in Quebec, but a majority elsewhere
in Canada and in North America as a whole. Francophones,
although a majority in Quebec, are a minority in Canada and
throughout North America, with the result that both communities
are entitled to legal and linguistic protection, and this must
be taken into account.
* * *
[English]
THE ECONOMY
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, budgets
are about choices and about priorities, as are economic
statements. When the finance minister chooses to apply all the
bonus surplus to repaying debt and none of it to dealing with the
environmental debt and the income divides that are growing daily,
he is making the wrong choices.
The minister brags about the health of the nation's finances,
but how does he justify ignoring the deteriorating health of real
people and real communities?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, if the hon. member will take a look at budget 2000 she
will see very large spending on behalf of the Minister of the
Environment and on behalf of the Minister of Natural Resources in
terms of climate change and the environment. This is not one
time spending but is continuing on and on.
There is no doubt about the primacy of the environment to the
government. There is no doubt about the linkage between the
environment and health, clean air and clean water. We did that
in budget 2000 and we will continue to do that.
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, for a
politician who used to talk about social justice and
environmental responsibility, the finance minister's tunnel
vision is breathtaking and in fact for many it is heartbreaking.
The minister has chosen to ignore the deterioration of our
environment. He has chosen to ignore the erosion of vital
services. He has chosen to ignore the growing gap between the
rich and the poor. How can these fundamental priorities have no
claim on at least a healthy portion of the hefty bonus surplus?
1430
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the fact is that of course they did. Much of the $750
million that went into the Canada Foundation for Innovation will
go to the environment. Much of the funding that went into Genome
Canada will deal with the health of Canadians. This was all
money that came out of that year end surplus.
I remind the hon. member that as a result of the paydown of $33
billion of debt, $2 billion will accrue to Canadians every year,
which they can invest in health care, in education and in the
environment.
I also remind the hon. member that it was Tommy Douglas who said
that the state should not be beholden to the bondholders. She
might well reread what Tommy Douglas had to say.
Mr. Scott Brison (Kings—Hants, PC): Mr. Speaker, the
Finance Minister's advisers claim he supports parliamentary
reform. No aspect of reform is more important than parliament's
control over the spending and fiscal policy of the government.
Why did the minister not demonstrate his respect for parliament,
his respect for members of the House and for all Canadians by
tabling a budget in the House of Commons?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, if we take a look at all the spending announcements and
spending commitments that have been made, they are either being
covered by specific legislation in the House, which the hon.
member and the others can certainly debate, or they are part of
the main or supplementary estimates.
Every spending item at one point or other will be open to
scrutiny by parliament.
Mr. Scott Brison (Kings—Hants, PC): Mr. Speaker,
earlier today the minister defended his decision not to table a
budget by saying that he took the advice of a select, elite group
of economists that told him not to bother.
Why does the minister respect the views of elite economists and
lobbyists more than the views of elected members of parliament?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, in the October statement we provided over $24 billion of
stimulus to the Canadian economy. That statement also previewed
the largest debt paydown. At the same time it made massive
investments in health care and a wide range of social issues.
That is what it did. It is important to allow the effects of
that to wend their way through the economy and that is what will
happen.
Finally, the Canadian people in the November election voted and
supported that budget and that statement.
* * *
JUSTICE
Mr. Vic Toews (Provencher, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, last week during committee testimony the commissioner of
the RCMP confirmed that the federal CPIC system was unable to
perform the function of a national sex offender registry.
Legislation and funding are required.
Will the solicitor general today commit to introduce legislation
as a first step to create that effective national sex offender
registry?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Solicitor General of Canada,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we have said many times in the House that
we have a very good system, one of the best computerized database
systems in the world.
We are working with the provinces and territories to improve the
system in any way that needs to be done. If the provinces wish
to provide addresses, they will be put in place on the CPIC
system.
Mr. Vic Toews (Provencher, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, the commissioner disagrees with him and yesterday the
Minister of Justice had the courage to admit that the existing
CPIC registry did not effectively protect Canadians from sexual
predators.
On behalf of the potential victims of sexual predators, will the
solicitor general join today with the Minister of Justice to take
every necessary step to create an effective sex offender
registry?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Solicitor General of Canada,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am sure my hon. colleague would not
want to misinterpret what the Minister of Justice said. She did
not say that we needed new legislation. She did say that we
would work with the provinces and territories to improve the
system in any way possible.
* * *
[Translation]
OFFICIAL LANGUAGES
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the use of the
criterion of language spoken at home defended by the minister
would have negative consequences not only for francophones in
Quebec, but for the Acadians and francophones in Canada.
1435
Does the minister not understand that to apply these criteria on
language spoken at home elsewhere in Canada would be devastating
for the francophone and Acadian communities, as they would
considerably reduce their numbers and, accordingly, the services
available to them?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it is interesting that the member mentions the other
provinces, because the Commissioner of Official Languages
intervenes in the other provinces as well. Why could she not
intervene in Quebec? That is the sole question today.
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, does the
minister not see that, by defending the criterion of language
spoken at home, he is opening the door to certain provinces that
could use it to justify significant cuts in services to
francophones on the grounds that they speak English at home?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the member's very question is before the courts. The
Government of Canada is an observer.
The Government of Canada is intervening in the Montfort case,
because it is in appeal. However, it is before the courts at the
moment. The Commissioner of Official Languages has arguments to
present. The Government of Quebec has arguments to present. It
will be up to the judge to decide, not the member or myself.
* * *
[English]
JUSTICE
Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, virtually every police force in the country
disagrees with the government and is saying that legislation is
required to enable a sex offender registry to be developed.
In Ontario Christopher's law is the enabling legislation that
provides and mandates registering changes to develop a sex
offender registry.
Would the solicitor general acknowledge that a sex offender
registry cannot be just developed by software and that it needs
enabling legislation to mandate the changes?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Solicitor General of Canada,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, what we must have across the country is
support from the provinces too.
As I have indicated, we have put $115 million in place to make
sure we have the best database computer system in the world,
which is the envy of all police forces around the world. We have
also indicated that we will accept addresses from provinces if
they wish to have them put in place.
Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, that guy sounds like a software salesman, not a
solicitor general. What is required in legislation is a mandate
that sex offenders report changes in names, addresses and phone
numbers. Also it must be mandated that sex offenders will be
penalized if they do not report them.
Would the software salesman mind standing in the House and
telling us that legislation is required to implement a sex
offender registry?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Solicitor General of Canada,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would not refer to my hon. colleague in
the way he has referred to me, but I will tell him that changing
one's name is under provincial jurisdiction. It is the same with
addresses. It is under provincial authority.
* * *
[Translation]
OFFICIAL LANGUAGES
Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ): Mr. Speaker, while the
minister wants to come across as the champion of official
languages, a damning report from the Treasury Board paints a
grim picture of his government's performance in this area.
How does the minister explain the cuts in excess of $100 million,
over a 10 year period, in the budgets of the official languages
programs, thus bringing these budgets back to the 1977-78 level,
more than 25 years ago?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the government has started investing again in official
languages programs. An annual amount of $70 million was added in
the 1999 budget.
The Commissioner of Official Languages has indeed criticized the
government sharply. It is her role to do so. She is not easy on
us and it would appear that she is not easy on Mr. Landry
either.
Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ): Mr. Speaker, we hope
that some day we will get an answer.
In addition to reporting cuts in excess of $100 million in the
programs' budgets and a smaller percentage of francophone deputy
ministers, this study shows that the number of employees in
official languages has dropped by 50% over a five year period.
Does the minister not think that he should look after his own
affairs and change what his government is doing wrong before
giving lessons to others?
1440
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it goes without saying that the Government of Canada
must set an example in the area of official languages, and we
will definitely improve our programs.
This being said, everything that goes on in Canada is my concern
and everything that goes on in Quebec is also my concern.
* * *
[English]
IMMIGRATION
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, the minister of immigration has said that the
Sklarzyk family are queue jumpers, but the fact is that the
family has been ordered deported due to a technical error.
Meanwhile a suspected assassin, Rudy Pacificador, has been
allowed to stay in the country for 14 years and still has not
been deported.
Where are the fairness and compassion in her system when it
allows a suspected assassin to be treated better than a family
who has behaved in an exemplary fashion?
Hon. Elinor Caplan (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is often and in fact I would say
always difficult to tell people that they have to leave Canada.
It is never easy to do that, but I will say to the member
opposite that last year 8,600 people were removed from Canada.
The number one priority for removal is criminals. The other
priorities are those who are failed refugee claimants and those
who have overstayed visitors visas.
I can assure the member that I have reviewed the file, that I
have seen no administrative error, and that it is difficult to
tell people that it is time to leave.
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, how about the 15,000 that cannot be found in the
country? The immigration department has decided to deport the
Sklarzyk family as a result of an administrative error, but the
minister has claimed she cannot deport an assassin due to
administrative problems. Where is the logic and compassion?
Will the minister try to defend her system, which would allow a
family who has behaved in an exemplary fashion to be deported but
cannot remove an accused murderer after 14 years?
Hon. Elinor Caplan (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, when we are dealing with people's lives,
grandstanding in the House of Commons is completely
inappropriate.
This member and others come to me with individual cases, and on
this one that member never came to me, never asked for the facts,
has stood in the House and is hurting people. I would say that
this is completely inappropriate.
In Canada we have due process. Before people are removed they
are entitled to due process. I can assure him that no one is
removed if there is an administrative error. The priorities for
removal are clear: criminals, failed refugee claimants and those
who have overstayed visitors visas. He never once took the
time—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Hamilton Mountain.
* * *
HEALTH
Ms. Beth Phinney (Hamilton Mountain, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the Minister of Health. Hepatitis exerts a
huge burden on those who suffer from the disease and on their
families. Could the minister tell the House what Health Canada
is doing to raise awareness of hepatitis?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
Health Canada has designated the month of May as Hepatitis
Awareness Month in Canada. I thank colleagues in the House for
encouraging that step to be taken.
Just last week Health Canada organized and financed a national
conference on hepatitis C to have researchers come together,
share information and enlarge both public understanding and
scientific discoveries in hepatitis treatment.
We are focusing on supporting those in the community who work in
this area and on assisting scientists across the country
developing new methods of treatment and hopefully one day a cure.
* * *
THE ENVIRONMENT
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. One of the
biggest failures of the Liberal government across the way is the
complete lack of attention to the environment. In fact the
University of Victoria recently did a study that said Canada had
one of the worst records in the industrial world and that on 25
environmental indicators we now rank 28 out of 29 countries in
the OECD.
The minister chose to put some $15 billion on the national debt.
He knew there was a big surplus coming. Why did he not put some
of that money into the environment? He had an option. Why did
he choose the national debt entirely and ignore the environment?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, there is no doubt about the priority of the environment
to Canadians and to the government. That is why we have put $1.1
billion toward climate change over the next five years. That is
why the government allocated in the $2 billion municipal
infrastructure program a minimum of 50% of the total program to
go to green municipal infrastructure, which is primarily
dedicated to drinking water and to sewage treatment projects.
Announcements of these kinds of investments have already been
made in the member's province of Saskatchewan, in Newfoundland
and New Brunswick, and we intend to continue with that course.
* * *
1445
POVERTY
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, another major failure of the Liberal government across
the way has been the growing gap between the rich and the poor.
After eight long lean Liberal years, Statistics Canada says the
rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer, yet the
minister did not even mention equality or poverty in his speech
today.
Why did the minister not put some of the money he put on the
debt toward narrowing the gap between the rich and the poor? Why
not put more money into the war against poverty instead of all
$15 billion on the national debt?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, that is exactly what the government did. Perhaps the
hon. member was not paying attention at that point, but $900
million as of July 1 will go into the child tax benefit. That is
primarily to deal with low income families with children.
If we take a look at our tax cuts, overwhelmingly they were
dedicated to middle and low income Canadians. Let us look at the
kind of money we put into health care and education to help low
income Canadians. If we look at the numbers, we see that while
the gap between the rich and the poor before taxes, and nobody
should be very proud of it, after taxes that gap narrows.
* * *
IMMIGRATION
Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday the minister of immigration stated that no one gets
deported over a $50 administrative error, so how did an
immigration file get so lost in the system that the applicant
ended up before the courts over $50?
Will the minister tell the House if members of the Sklarzyk
family can remain in Canada until they have their humanitarian
application interview? Will we not deport them? Could they at
least have the humanitarian application interview?
Hon. Elinor Caplan (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, yesterday the hon. member asked about an
administrative issue within the department. Today he has changed
his tune.
He is playing politics with people's lives. He did not come to
me. As a member of the House he is entitled to have all the
facts of this case. He has not asked one question of me
privately, although he has on other cases.
I would say to him that it is very difficult to tell people they
have to leave Canada. It is more difficult when members
grandstand in the House inappropriately.
* * *
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Mr. Speaker, DND has
just initiated a change to its contracting procedure which will
allow it to avoid going to tender and avoid the openness and
accountability which Canadians deserve.
In fact the latest bid to bring our troops home from Eritrea was
sent out to Europe well in advance of Canadian companies being
advised of it. Why has the minister changed the tendering
process in favour of one company?
Hon. Art Eggleton (Minister of National Defence, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, this has to do with the private contracting of
sealift capability to bring our equipment home. As the House
knows we had difficulty with one particular ship last year, so we
changed our procedures to tighten up on that.
In the course of doing we contracted with a company which is the
only company that has the kind of expertise needed to meet the
new conditions. We therefore contracted with that company which
will in turn give us a list of different ships available from
which the department will choose.
We feel that is the best way to protect Canadian interests and
the taxpayer dollar.
* * *
HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT
Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, last July the minister for HRDC said that bonuses would
not be handed out to executives in her department to fix the
million dollar boondoggle, but what do we find?
We find that 226 executives in her department received $685,000
in performance pay for meeting key performance targets. Why are
we paying executives performance pay to correct their own
mistakes?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the men and women in the Department of
Human Resources Development Canada should be applauded for the
work they have undertaken over the course of the last year to
improve the administration of grants and contributions.
The auditor general said that the department had turned itself
inside out to respond to this important undertaking. We will
continue to ensure that the administration of grants and
contribution is done perfectly in order.
* * *
TREASURY BOARD
Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, this is not applause. This is throwing money at these
people.
1450
Performance pay for senior public servants was to be paid out
for superior performance. Now we find that virtually every
executive across the board in every department qualifies for
performance pay. It is just another way to get another raise.
My question is for the President of the Treasury Board. Is the
qualification bar for performance pay so low that even
incompetent executives qualify for raises nowadays?
[Translation]
Hon. Lucienne Robillard (President of the Treasury Board and
Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
performance pay is not automatic for all senior executives.
It is a new way of paying those among them who have been set
very specific objectives. It is a new approach to remuneration
for that group.
Even the Strong report said that it was premature to reach a
judgement on implementation at this time, because it is just
beginning to be used. Next year, or the year after that, we
will be in a position to know with some accuracy whether the
objectives have been met.
* * *
PARENTAL LEAVE
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, section 69 of the Employment Insurance Act
provides that, when a province wants to offer a broader program
than the one available, the federal government will transfer the
necessary funds.
Why do we have to fight the government to get what is rightly
ours, when the Employment Insurance Act provides for a transfer
of money to provincial governments, and Quebecers want a real
program of parental leave?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I had the pleasure of discussing this with
the committee last week. I also had occasion to discuss it with
my Quebec counterpart, Ms. Goupil, earlier in the week.
As I have said, our priority is to set up a program that meets
the needs of all Canadians, including Quebecers.
As of December 31, we offered parental leave for one year at no
additional cost to Canadians.
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, the program of parental leave the Government
of Quebec wants to put in place is also supported by the leader
of the official opposition in the national assembly of Quebec,
Jean Charest, and I quote him “The federal government has to
negotiate that with Quebec”.
Will or will not the federal government agree to sit down and
negotiate with the government of Quebec before setting up the
program, given that the welfare of young families is involved?
Hon. Jane Stewart (Minister of Human Resources Development,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, nothing prevents the government of Quebec
from improving our program if it wants.
* * *
[English]
CANADIAN HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION
Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, an internal report has just indicated
that the Canadian Human Rights Commission is in chaos. Forty per
cent of the members have quit and another thirty-seven per cent
are poised to quit. Even John Hucker the second in command said
“We simply cannot carry on the way we have been carrying on”.
My question is for the responsible minister. Why did senior
executives of the Canadian Human Rights Commission receive pay
performances for this dismal performance?
Mr. John Maloney (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
we take the issue of human rights very seriously. The Canadian
Human Rights Commission has recognized a problem within its
management, and I commend it for initiating an internal workplace
survey to correct any errors that may exist.
Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, while all of this is going on, the
head of the commission is off gallivanting in Southeast Asia. The
issue is why the executive of the commission is being rewarded
for an appalling performance.
Again my question is for the responsible minister. Are these
the performance levels that people in the executive have to meet
to receive pay benefit packages?
Mr. John Maloney (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
in 1999 the government appointed a panel headed by the hon.
Gérard La Forest to review the Canadian Human Rights Act,
including the mandates of the commission and the human rights
tribunal.
The review panel provided significant recommendations covering
the various issues. We are currently reviewing those
recommendations.
* * *
1455
BOATING SAFETY
Ms. Aileen Carroll (Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the Victoria Day long weekend is here. It is a
traditional time for Canadians to go to the lake to open their
cottages. It is also the beginning of Safe Boating Week and is a
time to remind Canadians to be safe during the summer.
Could the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans tell us what he is
doing to make our waterways safe this summer?
Hon. Herb Dhaliwal (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for her question.
As members of parliament know, this week is Safe Boating Week,
which runs from May 19 to May 25. It is extremely important. The
coast guard is working with its partners across the country to
make Canadians aware of boating safety.
Last year we introduced an operator competency test which we
asked all Canadian boaters to take. We can prevent many of the
injuries that happen every summer on our lakes and rivers. We
ask Canadians to be fully involved in safety during Safe Boating
Week.
* * *
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS
Mr. Reed Elley (Nanaimo—Cowichan, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, already this week three Indian band offices have been
occupied by grassroots natives in western Canada. The Sagkeeng
in Manitoba, the Tsuu T'ina in Alberta and the Penticton of B.C.
have all been occupied by frustrated band members.
Could the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
tell us why these kinds of events are happening under his watch?
Hon. Robert Nault (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I think it is pretty obvious
that when individuals in Canada have an interest in making a
point they can start a demonstration. That is perfectly within
their right and perfectly normal in a democracy.
Mr. Reed Elley (Nanaimo—Cowichan, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, that answer tells me quite clearly that the minister
does not know a darn thing about what is going on in his
department. I will tell him why these natives are so unhappy.
In speaking with them, they are unhappy with the social
conditions on reserves, where inadequate housing, soaring
unemployment rates, a lack of proper health care and terrible
financial mismanagement are making their lives simply miserable.
What will the minister of Indian affairs do to solve these
problems and help the native people of Canada have some kind of
future in the country?
Hon. Robert Nault (Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern
Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if the member had been
watching closely, last year our department went into the economic
development business. We have been working with our partners,
the provinces, the private sector and first nations, to develop a
first nation economy.
The best way to deal with poverty is to find people jobs. That
is our mandate. That is what we are working on together.
* * *
[Translation]
YOUNG OFFENDERS
Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire (Longueuil, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the hon.
member for Berthier—Montcalm is currently touring Quebec
regarding the bill on young offenders.
People are unanimously outraged to see that it will cost more in
Quebec to implement an act that no one wants and that does not
at all take into account our societal choices in dealing with
crime.
Does the Minister of Justice not find it absurd that Quebec is
forced to fight against the federal government to preserve an
act that enjoys the unanimous support of Quebecers, and moreover
that it will be forced to spend more on an act that no one
wants?
[English]
Mr. John Maloney (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
certainly under the youth criminal justice act there will be
funding to the province of Quebec. There is $206 million across
the board for the initiation phase. Also nationally there will
be approximately $1 billion for all provinces.
However over the next five years the province of Quebec will
receive roughly $191 million to implement and support youth
justice services in that province.
* * *
JUSTICE
Mr. Stephen Owen (Vancouver Quadra, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have another question for the Parliamentary Secretary to the
Minister of Justice. We all know that the crime rate in most
categories of crime in most parts of the country have been
reducing steadily over the last decade. Yet crime still happens
daily causing more victims.
Will the parliamentary secretary explain to us what the
government is doing to prevent and further reduce crime in our
communities?
Mr. John Maloney (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
while Canada's crime rate is falling, we know that the cost of
each crime is too much. That is why the Liberal government
created the national crime prevention strategy. The strategy has
supported over 1,600 projects across the country so far.
Today in my region of Niagara the justice minister will announce
funding for 156 more projects in Ontario. These projects will
provide local solutions to local problems and address the root
causes of crime.
The national strategy demonstrates that the Liberal government's
commitment to help prevent crime in the first place is paramount.
1500
Mr. Vic Toews (Provencher, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, we have another project for the minister. The solicitor
general advised the House that a national sex offender registry
was a matter of provincial jurisdiction.
First the commissioner of the RCMP and now the Minister of
Justice acknowledged the need for federal action. Will the
solicitor general bring forward the necessary federal legislation
to protect all Canadians from sexual predators regardless of
where they live in this great country?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Solicitor General of Canada,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I said that we have offered to the
provinces to put the addresses of any offenders on CPIC.
We have had discussions with provincial and territorial
ministers. Some provinces have indicated they will attempt to
put a registry together. Provincial justice ministers agree that
we should evaluate what takes place down the road, not duplicate,
not waste money, and be sure that we do the thing right.
We have one of the best systems in the world. It is the envy of
all police forces around the world.
* * *
MINING INDUSTRY
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Mr. Speaker, never in the history of Canada has
there been a federal government to hold the people of Cape Breton
in such utter contempt as that government over there.
Yesterday will go down as a day of mourning for the people of
Cape Breton. The Minister of Natural Resources should resign his
seat today for the way he treats the people of Cape Breton by
going in there and destroying the hopes and aspirations of 440
miners and their families.
My question is for the government. Why do you hold the people
of Cape Breton in such utter contempt after all the promises you
told them in the last election, that if they vote Liberal you
will look after—
The Speaker: The hon. member intends to address the
Chair.
Hon. Ralph Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. gentleman should not rely upon his NDP
colleague, Mr. Corbett, for his facts because he will get them
dead wrong every time.
We have invited Devco to sit down with the union and negotiate
an appropriate human resources package. In addition, we have
topped up the economic development fund by $28 million, for a
total of $108 million by the government to defend Cape Breton,
the NDP notwithstanding.
* * *
PRESENCE IN GALLERY
The Speaker: I draw the attention of hon. members to
the presence in the gallery of the Honourable Sue Edelman,
Minister of Tourism of the Government of Yukon.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
* * *
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the usual
Thursday question of the government House leader on the business
for the rest of the week and the business for the week after
next, after we all get the well deserved break next week to go
home and spend some time with our constituents.
What can we look forward to when we return and have an
opportunity to see the report from the members' services and pay
commission that we expect any time? Can he tell us what we will
be doing in the House?
[Translation]
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano (Minister of Public Works and Government
Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we will continue this afternoon
with the debate on the opposition motion.
Tomorrow, we will begin second reading of Bill S-24, the
Kanesatake agreement legislation, and resume debate on Bill
C-27, the Nuclear Fuel Waste Act.
[English]
When we return on May 28 we will complete consideration of Bill
C-7, the youth justice bill. I will be seeking advice from
members opposite about wrapping up that debate. As backup we
would have Bill C-27, if necessary, and Bill C-19, the
environmental legislation.
Around mid-week we hope to commence report stage of Bill C-11,
the immigration legislation.
Thursday, May 31, shall be an allotted day.
1505
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, I rise on the Thursday question. May I use this
opportunity to inform the House, and in particular the Leader of
the Opposition, that it would be the desire of this party that
the Leader of the Opposition use his authority under Standing
Order 81(4)(a) to continue the examination of the estimates of
the Department of Industry in committee.
There are important questions that need to be answered before
the House can decide whether to pass the estimates. We must move
to facilitate this study and in the past it has not always
happened. In the event the Leader of the Opposition is not
prepared to designate a department, there are other members,
particularly members in this party, who are prepared to act.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
SUPPLY
ALLOTTED DAY—DRUGS
The House resumed consideration of the motion and of the
amendment.
Mr. Lynn Myers (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General of
Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I noted prior to question
period, the focus of the enforcement efforts of the Government of
Canada is against high level drug suppliers and traffickers
rather than individual users. This is in accordance with the law
enforcement priority of the government with respect to organized
crime.
Organized criminal groups control a very large portion of the
drug trade in Canada. The drug trade in turn provides a prime
source of profit for these groups. Over the past number of years
the government has taken action against organized crime. I will
outline some of the things we have done in this very important
area.
The government has provided significant RCMP budget increases in
the year 2000-01 in order to bolster organized crime efforts and
enforcement in this area. We have also made available 13
integrated proceeds of crime units which have been set up across
the country to deprive criminal groups of their profits and
property.
We have also made amendments to the Corrections and Conditional
Release Act to ensure that people convicted of offences related
to organized crime were no longer eligible for accelerated parole
review. Further, new money laundering legislation has created
measures for reporting suspicious financial transactions and the
cross-border movement of large amounts of currency. Amendments
were made to the criminal code in 1997 to specifically address
criminal organization offences. These criminal code measures
against organized crime will be reinforced in Bill C-24 currently
before the House.
These are some of the steps the Government of Canada has taken
in the past and will continue to do in measured efforts. We know
this is a very serious problem.
We recognize that despite these efforts it is likely to be
impossible to completely prevent all drug trafficking in Canada.
That would be ideal but it is highly unlikely and unrealistic.
Nevertheless enforcement can help to ensure that efforts toward
prevention, treatment and rehabilitation do not become undone in
an environment of unrestricted access to illegal drugs.
We also recognize that more can be done with respect to Canada's
drug strategy. Now is not the time for Canada to rest upon its
achievements, many that they are. Rather it is time for further
action to build on what has been achieved.
Countries around the world struggle with the issues surrounding
drug abuse and addiction. Canada unfortunately is no exception.
The government is clearly committed to the issue and to further
action. As part of that action I think it is very appropriate
for parliament to be reviewing drug abuse issues.
I therefore have no hesitation in supporting the motion. It
represents the kind of forward moving thinking we need as a
government and on all sides of the House to prevent the kinds of
things that are taking place in this area.
On behalf of the constituents of my riding and indeed all
Canadians, we need to pull together in this very important area.
It behoves all of us to move together to try to see if there are
solutions. In the process we must remember that treatment,
prevention and rehabilitation are key words when it comes to
these kinds of things, especially when it comes to our young
people who I believe Canadians, wherever they live in this great
country, want us to prevent going down this path because at the
end of the day there is nothing but trouble there.
1510
I can say firsthand that all Canadians recognize the problem.
Certainly we as a government recognize it. We need to work
efficiently and effectively to ensure that what we do in this
important area produces results at the end of the day. I believe
that is in keeping with the great values of the country and of
the people of Canada.
The motion is timely. I think it is one that we as a government
can and will support. It is something of great note to all
Canadians.
Ms. Sophia Leung (Vancouver Kingsway, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I take this opportunity to support my hon. colleague in this
important effort. Keeping drugs off our streets and away from
our children is one of the primary efforts of the Canada Customs
and Revenue Agency. It is obvious that CCRA takes seriously the
job of protecting Canada's borders. I for one am very proud of
the work it is doing. Saving Canadians from the harmful effects
of illicit drugs is an ongoing battle. I believe CCRA has shown
that it is up to the fight.
Crime knows no boundaries when it comes to smuggling drugs. As a
Canadian I find it comforting and reassuring that there are
dedicated men and women at our borders who work diligently to
prevent harmful, illegal drugs from entering the country. Day in
and day out some 3,500 customs officials work tirelessly to stop
illegal goods and inadmissible people from entering our country.
Canada's customs officers are the frontline defence against the
entry of illegal drugs into Canada, and they do an excellent job.
I will give some statistics. Last year customs officers seized
almost $900 million worth of illegal drugs at the border. Some
$900 million worth of drugs were kept off our streets, out of our
schools and away from our children. Drugs have been found in
some very interesting hiding places. Customs officers have
detected drugs hidden in shipments of fish, shoes, statues,
machines, picture frames, toys and even pineapples.
How does the CCRA seize almost $900 million worth of illegal
drugs? The CCRA uses a variety of tools to help stop the entry
of illegal drugs into Canada. The equipment can detect drugs
hidden in various types of substances such as plastic, coffee and
clothes. The use of contraband detection equipment and detector
dogs enables customs officers to conduct effective, non-intrusive
inspections and allows the CCRA to focus on high risk individuals
and their goods.
Over the past several years the CCRA has invested approximately
$12 million in contraband detection technology which is deployed
at ports of entry into Canada. Equipment such as ion scans,
contraband detection kits, laser range finders and night vision
equipment help customs officers detect drugs in clothing,
luggage, vehicles and marine containers.
1515
There are detector dogs. Forty dog teams strategically located
across Canada were responsible for over 1,000 seizures of drugs
and weapons last year. For 22 years detector dogs have played an
important role in stopping narcotics from entering the country
and helping the CCRA to be more effective and efficient in its
anti-smuggling initiatives.
The CCRA has forged important partnerships with other law
enforcement agencies to stop the entrance of illegal goods into
Canada. Together the RCMP and the CCRA have intercepted many
elaborate schemes to smuggle drugs. Just this week, as a result
of interdepartmental co-operation, 179 kilograms of cocaine with
a street value of over $70 million was seized. This is an
excellent example of law enforcement agencies working together to
fight crime.
These partnerships extend worldwide. As part of the world
customs organization, the Canada-U.S. shared border accord, the
Caribbean customs law enforcement council and the Canada-U.S.
cross border crime forum, the government is making a real
difference in protecting Canadians.
The CCRA also works closely with the private sector to combat
drug smuggling.
The partners in protection program involves a two way
partnership in which a shipping or trading company and the CCRA
sign a memorandum of understanding outlining ways to work
together to stop illegal activities. The CCRA provides guidance
on how to spot illegal activity and in turn the importer provides
the CCRA with information it may have regarding illegal activity.
I am very pleased that the CCRA has developed such proactive
relationships with these companies.
Stopping the entry of illegal drugs into Canada is one of many
ways these joint efforts are working to make our communities more
safe. A safer community is a healthier, more prosperous
community.
Partnerships like these help the CCRA fulfill its mandate of
protecting the border. They attest to the government's
commitment to improve the quality of life of all Canadians.
In conclusion, stopping the spread of drugs is critical to
winning the battle for a healthy Canadian society. As past
experience has shown, the drug problem is one that the CCRA and
the government take very seriously indeed.
The CCRA is dedicated to enforcing Canada's laws at the border,
stopping the entry of illegal drugs into Canada and protecting
Canadian citizens.
Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for
Nanaimo—Cowichan.
I am pleased to participate in the supply day motion of the
Canadian Alliance, the official opposition of Canada.
Last year I asked to ride along with Vancouver police to
experience first hand the illicit drug infested area of east
Vancouver. I did this for a few hours one night before I could
not take it any more and returned home. What I saw was an
appalling and shockingly dreadful experience of life.
1520
Many young and old people were injecting drugs in back alleys
which were littered with needles and condoms. Dirty hotels and
dormitories looked extremely unhygienic and were full of drug
addicts sitting or lying on the floor.
So-called refugees around 20 years of age, mostly from Honduras,
were selling cocaine and heroin. Almost all of them had about
$200 in their wallets in assorted denominations, were carrying
refugee ID cards and had business cards for the same lawyer. They
wore jewellery and designer clothing and had stereo Walkmans.
When they spotted the police in civilian clothes and cars
approaching them they blew whistles to warn their colleagues. As
soon as the police stopped them they stuck out their tongues,
spread their arms and hands, and made themselves ready for
inspection.
Some attempted to swallow drugs they had wrapped in plastic.
Many tried to hop on the skytrain to escape and sell drugs
elsewhere. Their suppliers were hiding in nearby restaurants. In
the area where illicit drugs are sold there are pawn shops to
make it convenient for drug addicts to sell stolen items such as
TVs, stereos, computers, et cetera. Restaurants, back alleys and
other facilities in the area are like one stop shopping centres
for drug addicts.
The government and the community have completely neglected the
issue. What I saw in Vancouver was the rule of the jungle. All
three levels of government have talked and studied too much. They
are all talk and no action. They have no effective plans. The
future for those people looks bleak, and that is a pity. It is
certainly not the Canada I dreamed of before immigrating here.
I also visited the port of Vancouver where there is no effective
control of drug imports. They are not even minimized, let alone
stopped. Less than 3% of cargo containers arriving at the port
are examined. Of those that are, many are found to contain
drugs. The government disbanded the Vancouver port police. It
should have strengthened and supported them by co-ordinating
their activities with the coast guard and other law enforcement
agencies. Instead it abandoned them.
It is no wonder the lower mainland of B.C. has the highest
needle exchange rate in North America. Our law enforcement
agencies are stripped of resources to fight crime and illicit
drugs. Our laws have no teeth. The government has no vision, no
plans, no priorities and no focus. Illicit drugs are even
available in government controlled prisons where criminals are
supposed to be punished and not entertained.
I have visited schools in my riding. The students tell me they
can purchase drugs faster than they can have pizza delivered. In
a 1999 survey, 53% of students said cannabis was easily or very
easily available. That is almost double the 28% recorded in
1981. Some 36% of students in 1999 said someone had tried in the
last year to sell them drugs, while 32% said they had observed
someone selling drugs in school.
It is no wonder the Marijuana Party received 3.5% of the votes
in last night's B.C. election. About 100,000 people in B.C.
supported the Marijuana Party. That tells us a great deal.
Marijuana growing operations can be found on every third block or
so. These grow-ops are a huge money making operation. Marijuana
is traded pound for pound with heroin south of the border.
1525
Motorcycle gangs are expanding their operations. Other
organized criminals are thriving. They have excellent houses,
cars, boats, planes, cutting edge technology, equipment and
appliances. The government gives them passports. Instead of
spending time in prison they go on cruises and exotic vacations,
things the ordinary taxpaying citizen finds it very difficult to
do.
Proceeds of crime are not confiscated from drug dealers and
organized criminals because we have no effective laws with teeth.
While money is the motivation, the lack of tough penalties is no
deterrent.
I had an opportunity to visit a couple of harm reduction clinics
in Surrey that are professionally managed by Dr. Anna-Marie
Maguire. I was disappointed to see a large number of patients
there but was encouraged to hear their success stories. One
patient told me he had been on drugs 15 years and had never been
home to see his family. He said he was completely changed after
receiving treatment and had met with his daughter for the first
time in 15 years. He had tears of regret and joy in his eyes
when he told me the story.
Another individual had been on drugs for many years and had
stolen car stereos and women's purses to finance an expensive
drug habit. He also repented and was a completely changed
individual.
To my surprise, the city of Surrey was reluctant to renew the
clinics' operating licences. I noticed no support for the
clinics from the community or from any level of government. I
understand that there may be problems. However there must be a
solution as well. The seriousness of the issue should not be
ignored.
A head start program would help the early detection of children
susceptible to drug and alcohol abuse and other anti-social
behaviour patterns. A head start program could offer more
effective treatment. Although a motion was unanimously passed in
the House I have seen no action from the Liberal government. It
lacks vision and political will.
More resources should be allocated to detect drugs which cause
impaired driving. A breathalyzer may show no alcohol but a
driver may still be under the influence of illicit drugs.
Illicit drugs are not only unregulated; they are in many cases
lethal. The increased purity of heroin and other drugs is
causing deaths. In Vancouver there are on average 147 deaths per
year due to overdoses of illicit drugs.
In 1998 Canada's long term drug strategy was to reduce the harm
associated with alcohol and other drugs to individuals, families
and communities. The strategy accepts that eradication of the
problem is impossible and that we must simply live with the
problem.
Strategies always talk of damage control, harm reduction, cures,
intervention, needle exchanges, et cetera, but not preventive
measures. The solution is to stop illicit drugs from being
manufactured and imported into Canada. We need to protect our
borders. We need regular inspections at our borders and ports.
The coast guard, surveillance planes, port authorities, local
police forces and others must work together and with the tools
and resources they need.
A national drug strategy in partnership with federal, provincial
and municipal governments must work at the community level to
reduce drug use.
We need to infiltrate gangs and criminal organizations. The
RCMP and other law enforcement agencies have trouble getting
permission to use wiretaps and other surveillance efforts. It
takes about 1,500 pages of petition to get such permission. Even
then the monitoring period is limited to 90 days. The whole
process must be restarted after the 90 days expires. The
investigation suffers in the meantime.
1530
During this process codes need to be broken, languages on
surveillance tapes have to be translated, and other such work
needs to be done to complete the investigations. Our law
enforcement agencies need the high tech tools. However the
criminals have money and state of the art technology while our
police struggle to maintain 20 year old technology.
Money is the motivation for criminal activities. Their money
and assets should be confiscated and turned over to our law
enforcement agencies to be used to fight crime. We need tougher
laws and we need to have them enforced. We need the punishment
to fit the crime.
This would establish tough deterrent measures and not encourage
crime with the lax laws and lax sentences that the Liberals
allow. What we have here is a Liberal government that lacks a
will and a vision to address these things. It has been the cause
of the problem for so many years.
Now is the time to set up a committee to look into all these
things so that something effective can be done. I appreciate
speaking to the motion and I look forward to all members of the
House supporting the Canadian Alliance motion to set up a
committee on the non-medical use of drugs.
Mr. Reed Elley (Nanaimo—Cowichan, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to speak to today's supply motion. I will
begin by thanking my hon. colleague from Langley—Abbotsford for
bringing this important matter before the House.
The motion before us today is very serious and addresses a very
real problem in society. One of the greatest problems facing our
young people today is the non-medical use of drugs. Over the
past number of years the prevalence and availability of
non-medical drugs have been overwhelming. Today's youth face
enormous pressures in the world. Our young people face constant
forms of peer pressure, one of which is to conform to the usage
of drugs.
There are entire industries based upon the non-medical use of
drugs. Internationally or nationally we can all point to
situations where this is true. My home province of British
Columbia is well known within the drug world for so-called home
grown marijuana, as well as other non-medical drugs.
My hon. colleagues have already mentioned several different
statistics concerning non-medical drug use. As the aboriginal
affairs critic for the Canadian Alliance I am particularly
concerned with the problem of substance abuse among our native
people. I would like to take a few minutes to review some of
the statistics because they have not yet been entered into the
debate.
The Canadian Centre on Substance Abuse in its 1999 profile tells
us that indigenous Canadians are at particular risk for substance
abuse. The majority of aboriginal youth are at two to six times
greater risk for alcohol problems than other Canadians.
Indigenous Canadians have relatively high rates of illicit drug
use.
I would like members to consider some of the following rates.
According to the Canadian Journal of Public Health over 73%
of natives use marijuana, 37% sniff glue, 6% use solvents, 5.5%
use heroin, almost 10% use speed, 14% use LSD, almost 5% use
cocaine and 8% use crack. Most disturbing about all these
statistics is that the usage rates are higher than in the
non-native population in some cases by as much as four times.
This is completely unacceptable.
1535
Our native people are among the most susceptible to non-medical
drug use and the statistics seem to bear it out. I have been
involved with native people as a counsellor and my wife and I
have been foster parents for over 25 years. I have seen the
results of many of these problems, and they are heartbreaking.
To see individuals, families and in some cases entire
communities devastated by the use and abuse of alcohol and
non-medical drugs is startling. The results of these actions
should not exist but sadly they do. As parliamentarians and as a
nation it is time that we take real action against this problem.
As I mentioned earlier, my home province is well known in the
drug world for illegal drugs. Unfortunately along with the
beauty and the splendour of a craggy remote coastline come
thousands of miles of secluded coves and places to import illegal
drugs from offshore.
Along with hydroponic growth operations, the remoteness of the
gulf isles and many parts of the B.C. interior provide ideal
locations for marijuana fields. The RCMP searches and finds
some, but with its limited resources, the overwhelming scope of
the territory and the sophistication of the growers only a small
percentage of the drugs are actually found and destroyed.
Nanaimo is the largest city in my riding. Many tourists call it
the hub city. However it has also become known as the heroin
capital of Canada. What a sad title to bestow on such a
beautiful city.
My colleagues have referred to the drug problems of Vancouver's
downtown east side and they were absolutely right to do so. There
are very serious problems there. I remind the House that there
are serious and equally devastating problems not only in a city
like Nanaimo but throughout a thousand other cities and towns
across the country.
We all know what the problem is. It is important that we start
doing something about it. Our past actions have not been wrong.
They were all well intentioned but for some reason do not seem to
be working. We have had an escalation, a growing epidemic of
illicit drug use across the country.
There are many other consequences beyond simply the non-medical
drugs. Drugs are not free and profit is the motive for the drug
dealers, be they at the local level or the major international
players in the drug game. Another consequence involves both petty
and major crimes and prostitution, including the exceedingly
young. My heart breaks when I see young people 13 and 14 years
of age trapped on the street. These are children. They are our
future and their lives are being squandered and wasted in a life
of drug abuse.
In 1996 the Canadian Centre on Substance Abuse estimated that
the economic cost of illegal drugs was $1.37 billion or $48 per
capita. The largest cost, approximately $823 million, was as a
result of lost productivity due to illness and premature death. A
substantial portion of the costs, $400 million, was for law
enforcement. Direct health costs due to illicit drugs were
estimated at $88 million. There was also the social cost of lost
families whether through death, illness or retreat from society
as a whole.
How many potentially great minds in the nation have been lost to
the illegal use of non-medical drugs? Can we afford, financially
or otherwise, to continue down this sordid path of human sorrow?
Can we in all good conscience stand idly by and allow these
problems to continue? I suggest not.
1540
I believe George Eliot said it correctly when she said:
Failure after long perseverance is much grander than never to
have a striving good enough to be called a failure.
Let us not fail for a lack of trying.
One of the issues arising out of today's debate is the medical
use of marijuana. We all recognize that this is a contentious
issue. When we refer to marijuana we often relate it to the
criminal element and the role it often plays in leading to other
drugs. I personally do not dispute this but I do believe there
is room in the debate for the medical use and research of
marijuana, particularly in a non-smokable form, such as pills and
inhalers. In turn, it should be treated like any other drug that
is approved and regulated in Canada. The body of medical
research appears to be showing that the medical use of marijuana
can be most helpful for some diseases.
We should differentiate between the medical and the recreational
or street use of marijuana. If there is a possibility of bona
fide medically proven results then we should not close the door
to this kind of help.
Earlier I mentioned that the motivating factor of profits is the
drug world. From a personal perspective, I think we need to
rethink how we approach the drug problem. The criminal element
in our society is interested in only one thing and that is
profits, not just small profits but obscene profits that have no
regard for the waste of human lives and ongoing suffering. In
simplistic terms, if we can remove the profit element we can
reduce or ideally even eliminate many forms of non-medical drug
use.
How do we do that? How do we remove the profits from the sales?
I do not have the answer and that is why we need this kind of
committee. It may be able to come up with some kind of
innovative way to take the profit motive out of the drug scandal.
I am pleased to be part of the debate today. I hope the motion
receives non-partisan support from right across the House, and
that it will eventually lead to something being done about the
most pressing problem among our young people today, which is the
use of illicit drugs.
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I thank my colleague for his intervention. He mentioned
the medical use of marijuana. One of the debatable points on
that is that youth may get the wrong signal. They may think that
if marijuana was fine for medical use, then maybe it would be
fine in a more recreational form.
How would my hon. colleague prevent youth from getting the wrong
signal from those who say that medical marijuana is just fine?
Mr. Reed Elley: Mr. Speaker, a distinction has to be made
in our society, particularly when we are engaged in any kind of
drug education with our young people.
Personally I do not believe that the recreational use of
marijuana should be a legal activity in Canada. Studies show
that the continued use of marijuana, particularly in a very heavy
way, does lead to all kinds of physical consequences, such as a
lack of concentration and brain damage of some kind that
eventually leads to the person becoming a far less effective
person.
However we also have to be able to say, and this is a basic
philosophy, that all things created do have a good intention
because that is the way the Creator meant it to be. We need to
see the benefits of marijuana for medicinal purposes. We must
also make it very clear to our young people that the continual
recreational use of marijuana is very harmful to them.
Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I am very happy that the hon. member for
Nanaimo—Cowichan is actually entering the debate because he has
firsthand experience from his past life of some of the results of
the abuse of illicit drugs.
1545
One should appeal to people who have had that experience as to
why they are so involved in this particular debate. It is no
accident that we are talking about setting up a special study
committee for this particular subject. The problem is all around
us. I wonder if the hon. member could explain perhaps in more
detail just how in his family or in the families of his friends
we could actually create a change in attitude toward the illicit
use of drugs.
Mr. Reed Elley: Mr. Speaker, I do thank my hon. colleague
for the question. It is true that in my former life I did have a
great deal to do with people who were addicted to non-medical
drugs. It is a very involved process. It means coming alongside
people in critical situations and providing them with real
reasons for, first of all, why they ought to live. In many cases
people just simply do not want to live. We have to provide them
with a reason for living.
That goes not only to the physical, but to the spiritual, to the
emotional, to the whole person. I was very involved in helping
people work those things through so that they did not have to
become dependent upon a chemical substance to try to find the
reason for living.
Also, as foster parents of aboriginal children, we are very well
aware of the results, for instance, of fetal alcohol abuse and
what happens in little lives when the mother drinks heavily
during gestation. That little life, who never asked for that, is
scarred by it forever.
Somehow we have to do something to help change the attitudes of
people at a primary level so that they know life is worth living.
Many times, I think, that is why people enter into this kind of
thing.
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have been listening closely to the debate. I congratulate the
member for Nanaimo—Cowichan for his informed remarks.
I took note of the latter reference in the remarks to the
medical use of marijuana, but I have to say that this is an
infinitesimally small piece of whatever this problem is. In the
overall scheme of what we are dealing with today, marijuana has
to be very low in priority. In my own personal view I am not too
sure why it even shows up on the Richter scale. However, it is
an illegal substance in our law now. Let us focus on the big
picture.
We all know the costs of illegal drug use. There are of course
the huge costs of lost lives, the policing costs, costs of
prosecution in the courts and sentencing in our institutions,
incarceration costs, rehabilitation costs, medical treatment
costs, the costs of theft of goods, break and enters in homes,
thefts of automobiles, the VCR, and the jewellery. How many
grandmother's rings have been stolen in the last year by people
stealing to pay for a drug habit? It is an epidemic.
There are also corruption costs. In some quarters our society
is being undermined by the sheer corruption of the organized
crime that drives the illegal drug trade. If left unchecked it
will undermine our society, as it has some other societies around
the world. It is insidious. So far we have been lucky but we
should not take our luck for granted.
The costs of needle sharing are huge. One statistic I have here
covers injection drug use, with all the harm it causes, such as
overdosing, HIV, hepatitis and other communicable pathogens,
suicides, abscesses, infections, poor nutrition and endocarditis.
1550
An estimate for all the direct and indirect costs for only
injection drug use is $8.7 billion over a six year period. That
is principally related to HIV-AIDS. The costs related to
hepatitis C that comes from injection drug use are anticipated to
overtake even the costs of treating HIV-AIDS over the years.
These are huge costs which we as a society are now bearing or
are about to bear. I do not think anyone has truly added up the
costs. Is there one minister in the House whose responsibility
it is to add up the costs of illegal drug use? The Minister of
Health will have a perspective. The solicitor general will have
a perspective. The customs and revenue agency will have a
perspective. There are a lot of perspectives.
My taxpayer constituents do not have the total number, but it is
huge. I am sure most members in the House will agree with that.
We do not even know what the total is. What cost do we put on a
young life snuffed out by illegal drug use?
I maintain that we have to radically change the way we look at
illegal drug use. We must radically change it because the
methods we are using now are virtually the same methods we have
used for the last 75 or 100 years. Essentially they involve
criminalizing the use of certain drugs.
There will be some real restraints in changing the way we deal
with this. I know that and most members of the House know that.
I am sure that by the end of this debate, maybe by the end of my
own remarks, there may be some phone calls to my constituency
office. I do not know. However, I am suggesting that we have to
radically change the way we look at this if we are to make any
progress as a society. I think we are afraid to change. Some of
us are and some of us are not, but I think a lot of us are afraid
to change the way we look at drugs.
There is another constraint. We as a country are bound into
certain international treaties that oblige us to criminalize
possession or use of certain drugs. We as a country are a good
boy scout. We criminalize it, we prosecute it and we follow the
other countries in these international conventions. That does
not give us much freedom. We have to be bold and take the
initiative. We do not have to reject the treaties, but we have
to find ways to find new approaches.
Our neighbour to the south, the U.S.A., is a constraint, believe
it or not. The way the U.S.A. treats this issue is the same way
it has treated it for 75 or 100 years. It is based on
enforcement and interdiction. That is not working. It is not
working there and it is not working here. It is imported across
our border just about the same way that a lot of other things are
imported across our border. I am not talking about the drugs. I
am talking about the policy, the method of enforcement.
It is difficult for us here to do things in a way that is
radically different from the way policing and medical
counterparts deal with it across the border, but we have to find
a way to do it.
Lastly, we have to look at our own attitudes toward these drugs.
Why do we criminalize certain drugs? Is it that the drug removes
some degree of sobriety? Is it that individuals get a bit of a
buzz with marijuana? Is that the evil thing? However, maybe
that is the same thing that alcohol does. We do not criminalize
alcohol.
Is it that some drugs are addictive? Is it evil because it is
addictive? Possibly, but cigarette tobacco is addictive. It is
just about as addictive as a drug can get.
We do not criminalize tobacco, but we can identify the drug, it
is addictive and we sell it in corner stores.
1555
It is not intrinsically sobriety or addictedness that is the key
to why we criminalize. I do not think we know why we criminalize
certain drugs, but it is in our law and we just cannot change.
However we have to, we must, find a way to break out of that
paradigm. If we do not, we will not find any new solutions and
we will stay on the same track we have been on since the years of
prohibition.
I will suggest that we make a significant change. We do not
have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We will have to
maintain strict laws and strict enforcement. For those who
distribute, for those who create the stuff, for those who break
the laws, we will maintain strictness. We cannot forget that we
are dealing with organized crime as a business. Organized crime
is driving virtually the entire gamut of illegal drug use.
We must keep the dynamic in mind. The dynamic is not that
people intrinsically as individuals walk out and seek addictive
drugs. The problem is that a businessman, a criminal, is
bringing in the drug and marketing it to the individual. That is
the most important part of this dynamic.
Am I suggesting that we legalize drugs? No.
Mr. Speaker, I notice that you have been indicating the passage
of time. It is not my intention to split my time. I would like
to continue and if there is some time left perhaps my colleague
could use that.
The Deputy Speaker: Now that the parliamentary secretary
has raised the prospect of whether or not he will split his time,
I am in a bit of a dilemma. Either he will split, and there is
very little time left, or he will not, the difference being that
at that time I would recognize someone across the floor should
someone wish to speak.
Mr. Derek Lee: Mr. Speaker, I will continue speaking.
One of the reasons I will continue speaking is that this is an
issue that I brought with me to the House when I was first
elected in 1988. I believe that this is the first occasion I as
a member have ever had, as a result of the motion being moved
today, to address the entire package of the issue of the illegal
use of drugs. It has been a long wait.
I think it is fair to say that when I first arrived here the
political context was not right in the country to look at new
approaches. I found significant political impediments in
suggesting new approaches. People were well-meaning, but perhaps
12 or 15 years ago we did not grasp the significance of all of
the evil and the costs involved.
Now I think our Canadian society has changed and the country may
be ready. We are not sure. Therefore I am not going to suggest
that we legalize anything. We do not have to legalize all
illegal drug use. I am not even suggesting decriminalization.
The problem is much more serious than could be addressed by
simple legalization or simple decriminalization. The reason it
is more complex is that we are dealing with the business of
organized crime. Whatever move society makes on the chessboard,
organized crime will make a countermove. If we legalize, it will
work with that. If we decriminalize, it will work with that.
1600
As I look at this, it is my view that we should maintain our
strict laws and enforcement of the illegal black marketing of
drugs, the importation of them and the conspiracies to do that. I
am not advocating any change in that.
What I advocate is what I call medicalization, not legalization,
not decriminalization but medicalization. The principal aim is
to remove the potential customer from organized crime. Society
will get its best bang for the buck by doing this.
The main way we can do that is to recognize when individuals
have become addicted and dependant on illegal drugs and as soon
as they interface with our justice system or any of our
institutions, medical or otherwise, divert them into a medically
supervised program. I am not putting parameters on it or being
specific about it. What I am saying is when people have become
addicted to a drug and are dependent on it, they should be given
that drug under medical supervision. At the same time they
should also have access to whatever programming is available to
get them off the drug and give them back their life. However
they must have access to the drug. In some cases if they do get
it they die or they do not make it very far. Those are difficult
times. I will give a little comparison.
The average Canadian bears the costs of illegal drug use. We
have the costs associated with home break-ins, stolen cars,
medical costs of needle sharing and the spread of HIV-AIDS and
hepatitis. There is also the heartbreak associated with
individuals who have to steal and cheat to sustain an illegal
drug habit. We could give them the drug for $5, a drug that
would cost them $1,000 or $2,000. In other words, medicalize it
and bring them into the system.
I recall a friend of mine in the United States took a slightly
more liberal view. He said that we should give them a barrel of
the drug, then the person would be satisfied. We have to go
further than that. We have to realize that an addicted person is
essentially a sick person. A drug dependant person needs
continuing medical care.
The essential part of this solution, and I hope it is a
solution, is to divert the customer of the organized criminal
into the medical system and make the drug easily available to the
person through a medical doctor's supervision. Maybe the medical
doctor could switch the drug from A to B to C, but the doctor's
goal would be to service the person's addiction, while at the
same time moving that person off the drug dependency.
We are all aware of the methadone treatment programs. Some of
these programs work and some do not. However there are many
other ways to approach the challenge of moving people away from
addiction. We are still experimenting.
Federal tax dollars are supporting pilot projects now. Huge
dollars are being spent by provincial governments for the same
thing. I am not so sure we have added up all the money, as I
said earlier, but that is now going on across Canadian society.
1605
We must take away the customer from organized crime. We could
ascribe a societal dollar cost to every person who is dependent
on illegal drug use, let us say $10,000, $50,000 or $100,000 a
year because the costs are huge. We could medicalize the
addiction which would stop them from purchasing drugs from
organized crime. We would then greatly reduce the direct or
indirect costs. I point out that in many cases the
medicalization would be there anyway, but it would be done in a
much more targeted way for the individual.
I will reiterate the term that I used which is medicalization.
It is absolutely essential for Canadians through their government
to compete against the ugly, evil organized crime. We have to
take away its customers and profits. That will reduce the cost
to our society.
Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. member a couple of
questions that have to do with the medicalization and the
treatment of drug addicts. There is some merit in the
suggestions that he made.
However the assumption underlying the treatment of addicts and
the medicalization of drugs starts somewhere. If we help these
people get off the addiction that is useful. However what about
creating a program that would help them not to get started in the
first place. It seems to me we are dealing with a symptom of a
deeper problem. Could he address that problem?
Mr. Derek Lee: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is quite
right. Prevention is a heck of a lot easier and a whole lot
cheaper than the cure. We have ongoing drug education programs
in schools and various other fora across the country. We spend
taxpayer money now doing that. However we are failing. It is
not working.
The hon. member would not be far off if he is saying that we
should spend more money on it and put more resources into it. I
would agree with him 100%. More resources for drug education and
a preventative initiative would help a lot.
There has been some drug education since I was a kid in grade
school up to now, but we could do more. However we are failing
and I do not want to fail any more.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, I was glad to hear the remarks of the parliamentary
secretary to the government House leader. I know this is an
issue that he and all members of the House take very seriously.
My question for him though deals with the issue of priorities.
He spoke of his own personal view of this issue as it being
something that necessitates government attention, that
necessitates the focus of all the stakeholders, such as health
and justice officials.
Not to sound too partisan but why has it taken opposition
motions to get the government to recognize some of these
priorities? Whether it be issues of foot and mouth disease,
agricultural, water safety or justice, why is it that it takes
the opposition to motivate the government to take the initiative
to address some of these issues that appear to be so apparent and
so obvious? Welcome to the bandwagon.
1610
Why has his government not taken the initiative on something
like this in the past? It is going on in the other place, but
the opposition appears to be the only one able to raise these
issues in the House of Commons to the extent that the government
is prepared to take notice and more important, take action.
Mr. Derek Lee: Mr. Speaker, I congratulate the member of
the opposition who moved this motion. I congratulate members of
all parties for participating in the debate. Government members
will speak to this issue from various perspectives.
As a member on the government side, I have to acknowledge that
governments tend to get stuck in the status quo. I mentioned
earlier the obstacles of changing attitudes in relation to
fighting the problem of illegal drugs. The government is locked
into treaties and the current drug enforcement initiatives.
Things are going on. The government is working at it.
Who in the government or in the House has been charged with the
challenge of finding a new way to deal with it? Who is going to
admit that we are failing? That does not happen often. We are
unlikely to find a minister who will stand in the House or
anywhere and say that the government is failing at something. Our
marks are low and we can do more. I am reasonably confident we
will do more.
I have been in the House for 12 years and this is the first time
I have had an opportunity to address this issue head on and as
comprehensively. I sat in opposition for five of those twelve
years.
Not one member of the House, not one opposition party nor not
necessarily the governing party, but the whole House will have an
opportunity to deal with this issue by way of a vote. This may
move the yardsticks in a way that we have not moved them before.
I am grateful for that opportunity.
Mr. Chuck Cadman (Surrey North, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I thank the member for his remarks. I know that this is
something that is very dear to him.
He made a comment about the marijuana problem being
infinitesimal, that it was a trivial part of this whole issue. I
am not sure if he was referring to the medicinal use of marijuana
or the recreational use.
If he was to make a trip out to my part of the country on the
west coast he could take a look at the grow ops. We have one
grow op pop up every day in my city of Surrey alone. One pound
of marijuana goes south across the border and comes back as a
pound of cocaine. Marijuana is a monstrous issue out there
because of the involvement of organized crime. The cash involved
fuels organized crime. It is anything but a trivial issue when
it comes to that.
Would he care to clarify his comments?
Mr. Derek Lee: Mr. Speaker, I do not underestimate for a
moment the amount of money involved in illegal marijuana growing
and trafficking. However we cannot convert marijuana to cocaine.
I understand the member's analogy about what goes out and what
comes back. However people who use marijuana do not inject the
drug. The basic marijuana usage we are thinking about in this
issue does not involve addiction or injection drugs.
I am wildly speculating, but if marijuana is for recreational
use and not addictive then people are paying for it with their
spare change and are paying for it on the black market. However
they are not stealing to support their recreational use of
marijuana. I am making assumptions that I cannot back up.
When I talk about all of the costs of illegal drug use, I was
talking about billions of dollars of direct and indirect costs.
The marijuana component of growing and selling on the black
market may be part of the big organized crime picture, but in
terms of its actual total piece of the whole, in my view it is
small.
1615
We may learn more if this committee is put in place. I may
learn a great deal. I respect the views that the hon. member has
indicated, that the organized crime element of marijuana is big,
because it is illegal, because it has been criminalized. If we
were to decriminalize it, if it had no addictive properties, if
it were treated like tobacco, it would not even be criminalized.
It would not show up on the Richter scale. It would be a cash
crop.
I will leave it there. I may say too much. The phone may be
ringing, as I said.
Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, it is an honour for me to enter this debate because I
think this is a very significant subject. The honour of it
really is to have the support of the Minister of Health, to have
the support of the hon. secretary and to recognize that virtually
everyone in the House is on the same page on this one. I find
that very rewarding and very significant.
At the same time, however, it seems to me to be a rather
interesting phenomenon that this problem has been talked about
since at least 1986, when a set of policies was created by the
then Conservative government. There was a further policy
development by the Liberal government following that. We have
been talking about it for 15 or 20 years and nothing seems to
have been done about it. It seems to me that we need to look at
this a little differently and ask why not.
The hon. member from the Conservative Party just raised the
question: why is it that if the problem is so significant the
only way it gets to see the light of day is through an opposition
party raising it on a supply day motion? If it is so important,
why is that the case?
It seems to me there are several reasons. First, I think as a
society we need to recognize that in order to really deal with
the problem we have to analyze the dynamics of a social change,
because what we are dealing with here is a social change, a
lifestyle change.
My hon. colleague from Surrey North mentioned this marijuana
business and said that it is an infinitesimal part of the drug
trade. It is not. It is very significant. In British Columbia,
of course, we grow very high quality marijuana. In fact it is so
good that a pound of marijuana goes south into the United States
and there is exchanged pound for pound for cocaine. Cocaine is
far more addictive than marijuana, but the marijuana has that
kind of life.
I am not an advocate of drug use in one way or another. In fact
I despise tobacco. I think it is a terrible addiction that we
have, but we have it. In order to change that, we have to change
our society. It used to be socially unacceptable to smoke. It
is not any more and we have accepted that. It is not a criminal
act. However it is a criminal act to smoke marijuana.
It seems to me that as a society we have to decide what shall be
criminal and what shall not be criminal. There are three parts
to this that we need to recognize. First we have to recognize
what problem we are facing with this business of drug use. What
is the problem? It seems to me we have had ample demonstration
of what the problem is. Our young people are using it. Our
adults are using it. The incidence of the use of the drug is
increasing. That is the problem. Why is it a problem? Obviously
somebody does not want people to do this. If all of us wanted
them to take drugs, it would not be a problem. We would not be
talking about it. Clearly we have recognized it as a problem.
Next, if it is a problem, whose problem is it? Is it your
problem, Mr. Speaker? Is it the Prime Minister's problem? Is it
the government's problem? Is it our problem? Is it the parents'
problem? Is it the kids' problem? Is it the teachers' problem?
One thing is sure. If it is no one's problem no one is going to
do anything about it. If we are constantly pointing the finger
at someone else and saying “That is your problem, so you go do
something about that”, what happens? We will not do anything
about it. If we point the finger elsewhere then nothing is going
to happen either. As long as there is an exercise like that
going on, nothing will change.
1620
It seems to me that we first need to recognize what the problem
is and then recognize whose problem it is. Knowing that, we can
then understand the situation and finally accept it. Until we do
those things we will do nothing. We will talk about it forever.
The official opposition brought to the attention of the House a
motion today which says that we should form a special committee
to study the drug problem seriously with a view to examining the
whole gamut of the issue. It is not easy.
Just recently I attended the Civitas conference here in Ottawa.
It was a think tank conference, part of which involved a debate
on whether we should keep the criminalization of drugs or
decriminalize drugs. There were excellent debates on both sides
of the issue.
What came out of the debate was a recognition that all of us
need to be far better informed as to what the real issues are.
Certainly there is a criminal element to it. Organized crime is
involved. Also, there is a predilection to seek pleasure versus
anything else and to do whatever one can to invoke the hedonistic
tendency that all human beings have. We need to clearly
understand the implications.
I think the hon. member mentioned in his remarks that there has
been drug education in the schools. Yes, there has been a very
complete exposé of what drugs will do to these kids. What has it
done? It has not resulted in a decrease in the use of drugs. It
has done the opposite.
I remember being asked, as the principal of a school a long time
ago, if I would become part of a pilot project on drug education.
I quickly did some research in schools where this took place. I
compared the incidence of drug use in schools where the program
had been implemented with that of schools where it had not been
implemented. Guess what? The incidence was directly related to
the degree to which the drug program had been implemented in that
school. There was a direct increase.
We told the kids more about drugs, so guess what they did? They
practised. Their curiosity was stimulated and they said “Gee,
if it is that much fun maybe we should try it”. Little did they
realize that these drugs are extremely addictive, particularly
some of the harder drugs. Then of course there are other abuses
that take place. For example they put some kind of drug in a
bottle of Coke and drive each other nuts. They do this. They
play tricks on each other, sometimes to the great chagrin and
terror of the victim.
Clearly drug education, or education about drugs, which is
really what it amounts to, is not the answer. It does not do
anything.
The first thing we have to do if we are really serious about
making a change is know what we are dealing with. What is this
drug phenomenon that people are subjecting themselves to? The
second thing we have to do is understand what drugs do to people,
how they are addictive and what can possibly be done to combat
them. Finally people have to say “I understand what it is, I
accept that it is my problem, my issue, and I have to make a
decision”.
I think the hon. member recognizes it is probably more important
to have preventive programs than it is to have rehabilitative and
treatment programs. No one becomes a drug addict without making
a choice to take drugs. That choice had to be made first. It is
a matter of choice and if it is a matter of choice, we also know
that we are dealing with morals or morality. Choice is
determined by the value structure that one holds. If we get into
that kind of debate, can we imagine where it would take us? I am
not surprised that the Liberal government seems to first test
which way the wind is blowing and then decides what the value is,
rather than deciding what its principles are in the first place.
We need to recognize that it is essentially a moral choice in
the first instance. We then have to move from there.
There are people who will argue that all we have to do is have
good laws and everything will be fine. I do not know of a single
law that has made people good, but I know of a lot of good laws
that have been made by good people. There is a fundamental
difference. Let us not ever deceive ourselves by thinking that
making good laws will make people good. It will do nothing of
the kind.
1625
However, if we do have laws, and we do, we had better make sure
those laws are observed and that the people who break those laws
are dealt with in an appropriate, fair and equitable way. The
consequences have to be strong enough that the rewards for
breaking the law are not greater than the consequences. That is
what is happening now.
For example, I know RCMP officers who pick up these marijuana
growers in Kelowna. There are a lot of growers there. These
people who break the law and grow marijuana do all kinds of
things besides that. They produce a drug that is illegal in the
first instance, but they also break the utilities law and a lot
of other stuff. They get fined $2,500 for doing it. For an
enterprise that generates something like $200,000 to $500,000 a
year, $2,500 is just a good business licence. They will not
quit. They will keep doing it. There are no serious
consequences.
When we do this kind of thing we really create an environment
that says to criminals it is okay if they break the law because
after all it is just the way things are and society really does
not frown on it too much, so they can keep on doing it.
The thing that scares me more than anything else is that there
seems to be a syndrome developing that if it is legal it is
right. It could be legal, but it could be extremely immoral and
false. An example is the Feeney case. Members will probably
remember it. A man killed an individual and left a trail of
blood. The police followed the trail of blood to a mobile home.
They went in and asked the individual if he killed the man. He
said yes and showed them the bar he did it with. The police took
him to headquarters and charged him with murder. They took him
to court. The judge asked if the police had a warrant. The
police officer said no. The judge said that then the individual
did not commit the crime, that he could not be convicted on that
basis. What a miscarriage of justice, what a miscarriage of
truth.
I want to refer to one of the chief justices here in Canada,
Justice L'Heureux-Dubé. At the 26th Canadian criminal justice
congress in Ottawa in 1997 she said that “the search for truth
is the very purpose of criminal justice”.
In this case, the Feeney case, truth was completely subject to a
legal process. It had nothing to do with justice. That is the
kind of thing that is happening in regard to the enforcement of
drugs and it is happening in other cases as well.
There is another case that is extremely significant in
connection with this. It has to do with drugs. In 1997 in
Ontario a judge decided that a principal's authority extended to
searches of students suspected of bringing drugs to school.
However, giving his good sense some time off, the judge then
added, but not if the principal enlists the aid of a police
officer. The good judge was pronouncing on a case in which a
crime stopper tip alerted police to a student who had put drugs
in the pocket of his red jacket to smuggle into his high school.
An officer visited the principal and together they checked the
student's locker. There was no red jacket. The pair proceeded
to the gym where they saw the red jacket and spoke to the
student. Knowing the game was up, he said “You'll find it in
that pocket in my jacket”. They did.
1630
However the mere presence of a policeman stuck in the judge's
craw. Moreover no cautions were given. There was no suggestion
to the student of his right to counsel, et cetera. The evidence
of both words and drugs were suppressed and the student was
acquitted.
Where is the truth? Where is the commitment to decency and
justice? The kids and the parents know it. The teachers and
principal know it. These are the things we have to deal with.
These are not matters of law. These are matters of choice to go
in a certain direction.
A high school principal can proceed on mere suspicion but a
police officer cannot. We pay officers to enforce the laws and
then hobble them more than someone we pay to administer a place
of learning. As for drugs, not to mention knives in our schools,
this is scary stuff and becoming pretty common.
Not long ago, in fact it was 20 years exactly, at the Victoria
Composite High School in Edmonton we had a student that walked
down the hallway, lifted his pant leg, pulled out a knife and
stabbed a fellow student. What do we have coming?
I have another case. It involves two caring parents; their son
George, aged 14; the accused John, a young 15 year old stray; and
a judge who knew more than enough charter law. John had left his
home and was kindly allowed by George's mom and dad to stay in
their home. In 1996 George and John donned masks and armed with
knives robbed a convenience store in Etobicoke, Ontario. As they
were fleeing, George dropped his wallet near the store. This
brought officers to call on his parents. George's mother made
sure that George had a chat with the officers who produced the
wallet. He admitted to the robbery and implicated John as well.
John was questioned. Knowing George had ratted on him, John
told the officer that it was not a balaclava; they were wearing
stockings. Months later he was videotaped by police telling all.
He also agreed to testify against George in a plea bargain and
was subsequently let go with 18 months of probation.
In 1997 George went to trial with two strikes against him but
the judge excluded his confession saying that George had felt
intimidated by the officers. Next the judge rejected John's
evidence against George, which he held to be a derivative of
George's conscripted admission, that is John would not have
tattled on his pal if George had not first got them both into
trouble. George went free.
Now back to George's mother who had ensured that her son
co-operated with the officers. Did she believe that it would
have been better for her son to face the music, pay his social
debt and get on with his life, or did she agree that the charter
knew better?
I did not write this book. It was written by Alex MacDonald who
used to be the attorney general of British Columbia. He called
his book Outrage: Canada's Justice System on Trial. He
says that we do not have a justice system in Canada, that we have
a legal system. He talks about the prodigal law and he says that
the justice system, the legal system, expands to fill the time
and money available. Where is the truth?
These are the kinds of things that terrify me. It is one of the
main reasons I am here. We have to get to the point where we
recognize that human beings make decisions. We as human beings
make decisions and choices. I am so concerned that we
concentrate on whether we are Liberal, Conservative, NDP or
whatever rather than on getting to the point where we agree that
the time has come for us to share a common set of values. In
that common set of values there should be things like character
so that individuals will clearly distinguish between what is
right and what is wrong, so that there will be a commitment to
courage and duty.
How many times do we find in this place that we consider it a
duty to serve on a committee or a duty to be present for a vote,
or whatever the case might be?
1635
It is almost as if we are forced into doing it. The whip has to
whip us into place. That should not be necessary. Out of 30
million people in Canada, there are 301 of us charged with the
responsibility of looking after their interests, to push back the
walls of evil and to make sure there is a law that will allow
people to feel protected and secure to walk down the streets
safely without worry.
Canadians trust us to do that. It is our duty to do that and we
should have the courage to stand and say that some things are
wrong. There is something very seriously wrong when we reward
the results of crime to a greater degree than the results of
doing what is right. That is what is happening. We protect the
criminal more than we do the victim. It is backward and as long
as we have that kind of process we will not resolve the drug
problem.
My appeal to all members is that we set up the special committee
and that we empower it to obtain all possible resources so that
we can analyze this problem and then have the courage to deal
with it because that is our duty.
Ms. Aileen Carroll (Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, Canada's drug strategy reflects a balance between
reducing the supply of drugs and reducing the demand for drugs.
Drugs affect every country in the world. Problems associated
with substance abuse, production of illicit drugs and drug
trafficking cause harm to individuals, families and communities.
Only through the co-ordinated action at the national and
international levels can we reduce the demand, illicit supply and
trafficking of drugs.
Canada's drug strategy involves 11 federal departments,
provincial and territorial governments, addiction agencies,
non-governmental organizations, professional associations, law
enforcement agencies, and community and private sector groups. It
is a co-ordinated effort to reduce the harm associated with
abusive drugs, alcohol and other substances. The strategy is
based on four pillars: prevention, enforcement and control,
treatment and rehabilitation, and harm reduction.
Through prevention we seek to prevent individuals from falling
prey to substance abuse. Through enforcement and control we seek
to prevent these substances from falling into the hands of the
wrong people. Through treatment and rehabilitation we seek to
help those who have a substance abuse problem to overcome the
problem. Through harm reduction we seek to prevent the problems
of disease, illness and community malaise that often go hand in
hand with substance abuse.
Harm associated with substance abuse can be physical,
psychological, societal and/or economic. Substance abuse is
primarily a health issue, not simply an enforcement issue.
Reducing the harm is considered to be realistic, pragmatic and a
humane approach as opposed to attempting solely to reduce the
supply of drugs.
The Government of Canada believes that a reduction of the harm
can be achieved by a number of initiatives: first, by increasing
the understanding of the risks associated with illicit drug use,
particularly among young people; second, by reducing high risk
patterns of alcohol and other drug use; and, third, by
identifying and promoting best practices in substance abuse
prevention, education, treatment and rehabilitation.
We are aiming at the illegal importation of illicit drugs and
reducing that importation. We are hoping to reduce the
availability of illicit drugs on the streets. We are reducing
the ability of persons involved in the supply and trafficking of
drugs to make use of the profits from their illegal activities.
It is not a simple response and it involves 11 departments in
Canada's drug strategy. We are taking action on all those
fronts. Canada's legislative framework is the backbone of our
approach to drug control. Three international conventions guide
domestic legislation, enforcement and control.
They are: the 1961 single convention on narcotic drugs and its
1972 protocol; the 1971 convention on psychotropic substances;
and the 1988 convention against illicit traffic in narcotic drugs
and psychotropic substances.
1640
Canada's legislation controls the import, production, export,
distribution, possession and use of psychoactive substances that
can result in harm when distributed or used without controls.
The law also provides mechanisms to ensure that the export,
import, production, distribution, possession and use of
internationally regulated substances are confined to medical,
scientific and industrial purposes.
In 1997 Canada proclaimed in force the Controlled Drugs and
Substances Act which modernized and consolidated the existing
legislation and provided enforcement agencies with additional
tools necessary to combat illicit drug related activity.
The alcohol and drug treatment and rehabilitation program, ADTR,
is another element that supports the Government of Canada's
efforts to reduce the harm associated with alcohol and other
drugs for individuals, families and their communities. Through
this program, provincial and territorial governments have access
to funding so they can improve accessibility to effective alcohol
and drug treatment and rehab programs and services. Youth and
women are major target groups for services funded under ADTR.
[Translation]
Canada places a high priority on international co-operation and
recognizes the need for a co-ordinated international response in
order to address the global problem.
International co-operation through the United Nations
international drug control program, UNDCP, and the
inter-American drug abuse control commission, CICAD, are the main
elements of Canada's international drug control activities.
Canada's annual contributions are $1.5 million to the UNDCP and
$600,000 to CICAD. Our activities internationally mirror the
balanced approach taken domestically.
Canada took the lead in the development of a Multilateral
Evaluation Mechanism, or the MEM, as it is commonly known, which
was agreed to in September 1999 at a meeting of a working group
chaired by Canada's former deputy solicitor general, Jean
Fournier, in Ottawa.
The first implementation round of the MEM began soon thereafter.
The first reports from the MEM were submitted to leaders at the
summit of the Americas in Quebec City, in 2001, and were well
received.
[English]
The growth of drug abuse in many jurisdictions and the impact of
trafficking and associated criminality have strained the
resources of many countries in the hemisphere that are seeking
technical assistance and training to develop the health, social
and law enforcement infrastructure to deal with the problem.
Canada provides assistance to countries in the region through
bilateral programs of the RCMP, Canada Customs and Revenue
Agency, Health Canada, Foreign Affairs and International Trade
and the Department of Justice. Canada also monitors and reviews
experiences and innovations in other countries to assess the
potential for applying new approaches here in Canada.
Canada's drug strategy is continually evolving. The types and
nature of substance abuse problems change as does the national
and international environment. Responses to Canada's drug
problems, and our efforts on both demand reduction and supply
reduction, are reassessed on a regular basis to ensure continued
relevance and appropriateness.
1645
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, before I get into my speech I would like to say
something about what is happening in my family at this moment. My
daughter-in-law, Lainy and my son Dan are in the process of
delivering a child. This will be our fifth grandchild and
somehow I have a feeling that Lainy is doing most of the work. I
am very excited and just waiting for the phone call to find out
how things are going.
With that in mind, the topic today is for my grandchildren and
perhaps for other members' grandchildren. This is about the
future of the children of Canada.
I would like to gently scold the government for half a second.
I happened to note in an exchange a few moments ago between the
member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough of the Progressive
Conservatives and the Liberal member for Scarborough—Rouge
River. The Conservative member was absolutely correct in
pointing out that this is not a Liberal initiative. It is a
shame because this is a serious problem and perhaps the
government does need to be prodded. The government should be
more focused on the future of our children. I commend the member
for Langley—Abbotsford who has been absolutely tireless on this
issue.
The motion is that a special committee of the House be appointed
to consider the factors underlying or relating to the non-medical
use of drugs in Canada and make recommendations with respect to
the ways or means by which the government can act alone or in its
relations with the governments at other levels in the reduction
of the dimension of the problem involved in such use. This is a
scourge and is a tremendously serious problem for us within our
society.
Illicit drug use contributes to crime and law enforcement costs
in several ways. It also breaks down much of the fabric of our
society.
However with respect to the costs, first there are the costs of
enforcing drug laws. Second, chronic or dependent use of
so-called hard drugs, like heroin, cocaine, crack, speed, LSD and
other strong hallucinogens, is often implicated as a contributory
cause of property crime particularly burglary and theft. Third,
drug use contributes to crimes of violence. Assault, homicide
and other crimes of violence have resulted from turf wars in the
illicit drug market. Illicit drug users are disproportionately
involved in incidences of spousal and child abuse. Even cannabis
has been implicated as a contributory cause of crime with regard
to impaired driving.
Criminal offenders have disproportionately high rates of illicit
drug use. Up to 80% of offenders report using illicit drugs
during their lifetime. That is an important number. There is a
connection there. We cannot get away from it. Fifty to
seventy-five per cent show traces of drugs in their urine at the
time of arrest and close to 30% were under the influence of drugs
when they committed the crime for which they were accused.
Drug addicts committed to treatment often have criminal records.
There is clearly a relationship between illicit drug use and
crime but it is not always casual. The fact that a crime is
committed by someone using illicit drugs does not necessarily
mean that the drug use caused the crime to be committed. However
there are several plausible casual connections between drugs and
crime.
First, there is the pharmacological effects of the drugs. Each
drug has its own track, its own trace and its own way of
impacting the drug user. There is a relationship between drug
consumption and violence for certain illicit drugs. Cocaine,
other stimulants and PCP could induce violence by the loss of ego
control, deterioration of judgement, induction of irritability
and impulsiveness or the production of paranoid thoughts.
1650
Second, there is a need for addicts to commit crimes to support
their drug use. There is some argument that it is part of a drug
culture, but when people become addicted to heroin and cocaine,
they are unresponsive or their consumption of the drug is totally
unresponsive to price. They simply go out and do more break and
enters, or do more property offences or perhaps even become
involved violently with people.
Third, addicts adopt a deviant way of life that accounts for
both their drug use and their criminal behaviour. As I mentioned
before, there is a relationship between those things.
Fourth, crime results from systemic violence inherent in the
illicit drug trade. We are familiar with different turf wars
that occasionally happen. We are also familiar with the fact
that in many very strong ethnic communities in Canada, people who
have come to Canada to build a better life for themselves and for
their children are preyed upon by others within their own ethnic
community who are involved in the drug trade. It is a very
serious problem for law-abiding citizens, no matter what their
origin.
There are police costs. According to figures I have in front of
me, in 1992 the attributed costs of policing were estimated at
$208.3 million for illicit drugs and approximately $168 million
was expended on the enforcement of drug laws per se.
There are court costs. There are correction costs because the
people involved in these property offences and other things end
up being put away.
Finally, there is the issue of customs and excise and the costs
involved there. Obviously we have to have borders that to the
best of our ability will interdict the flow of drugs in and out
of Canada.
Now, speaking of in and out of Canada, let me read a paragraph
from the city of Toronto Drug Prevention Centre's article about
the truth about marijuana. It says:
According to population surveys, past year cannabis use among
Toronto adults remained relatively stable in 1999 at about 10%.
Among Toronto students, past year use of cannabis increased from
9% in 1993 to 18% in 1995, levelling off at 19% in 1997. The
1999 survey found past-year cannabis use among 26% of junior high
and senior high school students in Toronto, the highest rate
reported since the survey started in 1994.
In 1998 almost one in five, or 18%, of drug treatment clients
cited cannabis as a problematic substance.
The truth about marijuana is that it is not the innocuous
substance that many of our hippie generation grew up with. The
truth about marijuana is that it is cultivated and has a potency
that was absolutely unimagined before. The truth about cannabis
is that it has the potential to create tremendous serious
societal problems.
Let me conclude with this statement. Often young users come
from a background of poverty, physical and sexual abuse and
substance misuse, particularly alcohol. Even before any
influence by their peers, they are very much at risk of
developing problems with alcohol or drugs. Experimentation with
drugs and altered states of consciousness can start out
innocently and often does not lead to harm. However young people
can develop severe drug dependence and can be suddenly forced to
navigate a complex, criminal environment to obtain the substance
they are physically dependent upon to make it through each day.
I am sure the motion by the hon. member for Langley—Abbotsford
will be supported by all members because it is with the young
people of Canada, it is with the very basis of our Canadian
society that we must wrestle with these problems, and the buck
stops here.
1655
The Deputy Speaker: It is my duty pursuant to Standing
Order 38 to inform the House that the question to be raised
tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: the hon.
member for South Shore, the Lumber Industry.
Mr. Chuck Cadman (Surrey North, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to rise and to speak in support of the
motion.
As we heard from my colleague from Kootenay—Columbia, we have
heard many statistics, many studies and many comments, and those
certainly have their place in the debate. It gives us some kind
of an indication of the scope of the problem when we refer to
numbers. Unfortunately, numbers tend to make things cold and
impersonal. Human lives are reduced to numbers through
statistics. We can never lose sight of the human element in the
debate.
I would like to just take a bit of time to make a few comments
on my personal experiences with some of these issues.
I recall back to November 4, 1992 when I was watching the
evening news in B.C. There was a report about a double homicide
in Cloverdale, B.C., which is a community in my city of Surrey.
As the report unfolded, we knew that two women had been murdered.
That developed over the next couple of days. I recall a couple
of days later seeing on the news again a gentleman who was red
eyed and crying. He was the father of one of the women.
Unfortunately, I and my family were recoiling at that time from
a very specific traumatizing incident two weeks prior to that. I
had the man's name so I took it upon myself to find his number
and call him. I told him if he ever wanted to talk to let me
know. It is an awful way to meet people but Bob and Pat are now
among some of my closest friends.
As the story developed, those two women, and I will not name
them, shared a house in Cloverdale. One lived downstairs in her
basement suite with her three children and one lived upstairs by
herself. A gentleman friend of the upstairs tenant paid her a
visit. An argument developed over something and eventually he
pulled out a knife and stabbed her. The lady in the basement,
not knowing what was going on, went upstairs to see what all the
ruckus was about. He stabbed her on his way out. The lady
upstairs died instantly. The lady downstairs managed to make it
out to the street.
The other element in this is that the lady downstairs had three
children. Two of those kids were in school that day and that is
where they found out what happened to their mother. The four
year old was at home and saw the whole thing.
This is how this ties into the debate. When the case was
investigated and was before the court, it was discovered that the
gentleman friend was stoned on cocaine. He used the defence of
cocaine psychosis. In other words, he said he blacked out and
did not know what he was doing. Two minutes later there were two
women dead as he ran out of the house.
My friend talked about our generation. There was a song by a
group back in the sixties called I Got Stoned and I Missed
It. I do not buy that kind of defence. We could get into a
whole debate about what is an adequate or acceptable defence for
killing people and whether cocaine or alcohol intoxication is
valid, but that is a debate for another day.
The point is two women are dead, three children are without a
mother and one of those children will be completely traumatized for
the rest of his life because at four years old he saw his mother
stabbed to death. All because of what? Cocaine, an illicit
drug. That is part of the human side.
Members in this place have quite frequently heard me talk about
how I like to ride along with the RCMP in my community of Surrey.
I encourage all members to do the same, not just to have a cup of
coffee with them for an hour and talk shop, but to get in the
right-hand seat of a police cruiser and spend 12 or 14 hours
overnight on a Friday or Saturday. These are usually pretty good
nights to find out what goes on in the streets. I try to do
that every couple of months with my detachment.
I have had a couple of experiences. It tends to be fairly
routine most nights but every once in a while something comes
along. I recall one time about a year and a half ago when we got
a call very early in the evening about a shoplifter in a
supermarket.
When we responded to the call the security guard was holding a
woman in her mid-thirties with no identification who had stolen
three cans of Enfalac, baby formula, a hand puppet and a few
little things.
1700
As we questioned her we found out that her welfare cheque had
not come and there was no food in the house for the baby. When
the officer ran her name through police records he discovered she
was on probation and was not supposed to be within 100 metres of
the store. She was in breach of her probation.
What could the officer do? Where was the baby? The baby was at
the drug recovery house where the mother had been living for nine
months. The woman's husband was minding the baby. He was able to
visit on weekends because he lived in another drug recovery
house.
What could we do? Did the police officer breach her, which
means take her to jail right away? No, he did not. He tried to
help her and give her a break. The woman was taken to the house
where the father, himself a recovering drug addict, was with the
six month old child.
The police officer wrote her up and made her promise to appear
at the police station the following morning and to appear in
court about a month later. He lectured her. I gave her a piece
of my mind and told her she was not doing her baby any good. I
told her that people were trying to help her. The police officer
could have taken her straight to jail but he did not.
I came back to Ottawa. About a month later I received a call
from the police officer. The woman had never showed up at the
police station and never showed up at court. There is now a
double warrant for her arrest. What will happen to the child?
That is my concern. Another young child will now go into foster
care as a ward of the state. The whole vicious cycle will start
over again because of drugs.
What should be done? I could take a hard line against the
mother and say we should refuse to help such people. I could say
that we give them all the help in the world but they do not want
to take it and we should finally say enough is enough. However I
am more concerned about the child because we have started the
cycle all over again.
It is all too easy to make such judgments, especially if one has
never seen how it is on the street. People here should look at
the downtown east side of Vancouver or the core of Whalley in
Surrey and see the junkies. They are called junkies and losers.
I can tell hon. members that they are not. They have problems.
I was on a call one night, again on a ride along, to a house
where a man had found his brother dead on the kitchen floor with
a syringe beside him. He was in terrible shape. He was skinny,
scrawny and dirty. I stood and looked at him and knew he was
someone's son. It was the brother who called us. Let us never
lose sight of that. We are not dealing with losers. We are
dealing with people who have problems and we must do what we can
to help them. Some want to be helped and will be helped. Others
do not and we must deal with them too. They are all someone's
kids.
I have kids of my own. The most traumatic incident in my life
was the murder of my son. It was drug related. My son was not
involved in drugs but the six people who attacked him and his
friends that night were stoned. They had been doing drugs all
day long. That is the human side of the issue.
I sense in this place a real mood of co-operation to do
something about this issue. We all have different ideas,
philosophies and approaches as to what should be done. However
it is high time to bring those differences to the table, talk
them out and do something. The country cannot take it any more.
Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker,
I have an opportunity to speak about a topic that has generated
enormous debate in the country. I congratulate the member for
Langley—Abbotsford who has spent a lot of time on the issue and
has brought it before the House today. For those who might have
just tuned in this is a motion to review Canada's laws regarding
illicit drugs.
I will talk about the issue from the perspective of someone who
has had a stethoscope around his neck for much of his life.
1705
I will take on the human component of this as well, as my
colleague did. I will talk about some of the experiences I had
with the treatment end of drug problems and reflect upon how I
think there is a need for a fresh look at what Canada is doing
with its drug laws.
I will start by talking about a jurisdictional issue. This is
reflective of the different positions of Canada and our large
neighbour to the south. I noted this week that the U.S. supreme
court has taken a specific stand on the medical use of marijuana.
The supreme court said there is no redeeming value to marijuana
for medical purposes.
Here in Canada we have taken a different approach. We are
trying to figure out what diseases are helped by marijuana. This
is a significantly different approach. My own feeling is that as
a physician I was able to use the strongest painkillers available
for those who were ill, especially at the end of life as
palliative care for those with cancer and very serious illnesses.
I could use heroin. Everyone said that was reasonable because it
was being used for a specific purpose.
I feel that if marijuana is the only thing that will help people
with a serious disease at the end of their lives it is reasonable
to use it. I do not think smoking marijuana is ideal for this.
Research has been done to get marijuana in different forms, forms
that will allow it to be used in a waxy capsule or even used like
the Nicorette patch. In my mind that is reasonable. For end of
life issues, for palliative care, for severe problems when no
other medication works, I do believe that there is room for the
medical use of marijuana.
However, what happens if our big neighbour to the south says
“Forget that. That will not happen in the U.S.”? What might
Americans do who are living close to the border, have a severe
illness and feel that marijuana is the only thing that will help?
They might well come to Canada. They might well cross the
border. In a sense, they might end up putting some strain on our
medical system here.
I bring that up because I think it is very important in regard
to jurisdictional issues that we do not forget what is happening
nearby. We could end up with major problems if we forget that.
There is one debate I have been involved in and have listened to
both sides of it. Some say that softer penalties for drugs would
make sense. In some cases that is a compelling argument, because
I think an intelligent individual looking at the drug issue in
Canada would say that we have not made huge progress. I am now
stepping a little bit into what I think the debate in this
committee might be.
What about the argument that softer drug laws would be of
benefit? To get a sense of that answer, I look at places where
this has been tried. It is possible to look at other
jurisdictions. In some parts of Europe the penalties for drug
use are substantially different.
There is a jurisdiction fairly close to home that gives me some
sense of what might happen. In Alaska, the home of the free, the
home of “don't tell me what to do”, they decided that the
penalty for marijuana use would be virtually zero for adults.
There would be no criminal penalty, no fine, nothing. If an
adult wanted to smoke marijuana in Alaska not so long ago, have
it was the attitude. That is the pioneer spirit, is it not,
from the frontier? Yukon is the jurisdiction close at hand. Both
of these jurisdictions are similar. They are fairly isolated and
the populations are similar. A comparison of the two was done 10
years later. The use of marijuana in the adolescent population
doubled in Alaska compared to Yukon, so it became obvious that
this approach in that location was not a great success.
I have heard individuals argue and debate that those are just
straight statistics. From my perspective, to simply make it
easier for kids to get an illicit drug is not the answer at least
in that locale. I am not convinced that is the solution.
1710
I will give another specific example from my own experience. In
my little black bag I used to carry a medication called Demerol.
I had little vials of it with me all the time. The proper
chemical name for it is Meperidine. I would take it on house
calls. If people broke a leg, for example, I could give them a
shot of Demerol and they would be more comfortable going in the
ambulance. It was thought to be fair and reasonable for me to do
that. Demerol is very inexpensive to buy. I needed a triplicate
prescription to get a supply and kept it with me.
It is a powerful, inexpensive narcotic. What is it worth on the
street? It is not worth $10 for a big vial of Demerol. It is
worth $1,000, plus or minus. Why is that? It is not available
on the street. It is a potent narcotic. It is very close to
heroin in its effects and so it is very popular.
The only way to get Demerol on the street is to break into a
pharmacy or swipe it from a physician's black bag or get it from
the manufacturer. There are other ways. There are people who
wear the cloak of physician who dispense it. It gets out on the
street in that way.
I use it as an example because it is an inexpensive medicine
used for legitimate purposes which is very valuable in the
illegal market. There are break-ins to get it. There are
assaults to get it. There is damage done to individuals to get
this drug. There are illicit activities for those who are using
the drug so they can have it available.
What then would happen if we just made all these drugs available
as that one was to me? That example tells me that it may not be
the complete answer either.
What of those who say that we should put all our resources into
treatment? That is also a good debate. There would be nothing
directed toward those who were trying to supply the drug. We
would just let people do what they want. There would be no
penalties to the addict and the addict would be a patient. We
would make the drugs available, license places to distribute them
and might even tax them. There would be resources for the public
and they would be very clean. It would not be illicit or illegal
as the source would be government sponsored. What does that
sound like? It sounds like the way we already handle one major
drug, alcohol, which of course is a drug.
In my practice I was able to talk with a number of addicts. I
should like to tell the House what treated addicts say. When
treated addicts ask themselves why they started using drugs, the
recurrent point I hear from them is that they started because of
a broken family, peer pressure, loneliness, or because pushers
tricked them. Why did they quit? Some quit because they hit
bottom. Some found religion. Some had a wonderful rehab
counsellor or friend.
This debate is about what society should do. My colleague who
put the proposal forth suggests that we take a very careful look
at the issue and debate it carefully. I support that and hope my
colleagues across the way will as well.
1715
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: It being 5.15 p.m., it is my duty to
interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question
necessary to dispose of the business of supply.
[English]
The question is on the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the
House to adopt the amendment?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Amendment agreed to)
The Deputy Speaker: The next question is on the main
motion as amended. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the
motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Motion, as amended, agreed to)
The Deputy Speaker: It being 5.30 p.m. the House will now
proceed to the consideration of private members' business as
listed on today's order paper.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[Translation]
CANADA MARINE ACT
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les
Basques, BQ) moved that Bill C-253, an act to amend the Canada
Marine Act, be read the second time and referred to a
committee.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to put before the House of
Commons this bill I tabled, which aims to bring the Canada Marine
Act into line with the reality of our regional ports.
First off, I will give a bit of background on why this bill
had to be introduced.
In 1995, the Government of Canada decided to institute a policy
of divesting itself of regional ports. Some ports were inactive,
others were operating. Some were not cost effective, others
were. The federal government therefore decided to establish a
policy that would enable local communities possibly to acquire
the port facilities.
In my riding, the port of Cacouna was affected. A port
development corporation took this question on and studied the
matter in depth. I would say it learned a lot about managing a
commercial port like that of Cacouna.
The rule also spread to all regional ports along the St.
Lawrence. Analysis has shown that in the medium term it was
impossible for the local people to assume ownership, for the
community to assume ownership, because this was too costly given
the long term investments. Proposals were made to the federal
government. There were counter-proposals, but never any
conclusion because the infrastructures are indeed too costly.
Given this state of affairs, I had a look at the Canada Marine
Act, with the realization that the federal government had put
into place for the Canadian port authorities, which are the
major ports, a structure which retains the government as owner,
although day to day administration falls to the local community.
This means huge municipal tax bills can be avoided and allows a
certain competition between ports. This has made it possible to
promote and market the ports.
1720
However, the same thing was not done with the regional ports
where the federal government in my opinion settled for a kind of
clearing out of the existing facilities, closing those that were
absolutely not operational, in order—and I believe it was in
good faith in so doing—to allow the local communities to acquire
facilities. But in practice, as I have said, community takeover
was absolutely impossible.
As a result, the regional ports people thought it over, and I
have my own ideas of what they concluded.
In the bill, I propose that a regional port may remain
government property.
It could be the federal government, but it could also be the
Quebec government. The responsibility for managing the port would
be delegated to local interests.
Since the introduction of this bill, the Quebec government has
taken a very positive measure. It has told the federal government
that it would be interested in negotiating to get a number of
ports, such as those of Baie-Comeau, Matane, Rimouski, Cacouna
and perhaps the port of Gaspé, for which negotiations with the
federal government are already quite advanced.
This proposal from the Quebec government is interesting. It
would achieve the same objective as the one that I pursue with
the bill that I introduced. Indeed, my bill would allow for such
transactions, because I anticipated that the provincial
government, namely the Quebec government, could become the owner
of the facilities and hand over the responsibility for managing
these facilities to local authorities.
This situation is the result of what I call dropping the whole
idea of a marine policy for Canada. For years and even decades,
the federal government has neglected things, even though it is
responsible for marine issues under the Constitution.
The hon. member for Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière knows that
better than anyone else.
He fought an extraordinary battle to try to finally get a
shipbuilding policy, but we are no further ahead. Despite his
repeated attacks, his motions and his initiatives, we are still
waiting for action from the federal government.
The same thing happened with the ports system. Under the
constitution, this is a federal responsibility. But for years
the government has been penny wise and pound foolish. When there
was too much pressure in one sector, when partisan political
pressure was strong, the government did the equivalent of
slapping down a bit of asphalt. It applied just enough to calm
public opinion to be able to win an election, but there was no
comprehensive development strategy, just as there was no
comprehensive strategy for managing waterways such as the St.
Lawrence River.
I think that we must work very hard in this area. The proposal
by the government of Quebec to negotiate in order to acquire the
ports will be a step in the right direction, particularly as it
is getting ready to introduce a marine policy. In the coming
weeks, for the first time since confederation, there will truly
be a marine policy to develop the St. Lawrence River, this
magnificent waterway which allows goods to be transported in the
best possible environmental conditions. This is much cheaper in
the long run. It promotes sustainable development and will also
increase communications along the whole length of the river, as
well as bringing the north and south shores into contact.
We could reinvent many things, such as cabotage, and allow
ferries specialized in transporting raw materials, cargo
material.
Other ferries could carry standard vehicles and foot passengers
wanting to get to the other side. There are all sorts of
possibilities.
However, since the federal government had renounced its
responsibilities in this area, the government of Quebec, at the
suggestion of Jacques Baril, the minister responsible for this
area by virtue of his transport portfolio and a very realistic
and down-to-earth man, saw this as a fantastic opportunity.
1725
He visited the port personally and analyses were carried out of
the potential projects for shore-to-shore transportation. All of
this was connected to the immense economic development we have
seen on the north shore with all the major companies there.
This wish of the government of Quebec will be translated into a
marine policy that will be presented in the next few weeks. It
is the outcome of consultation with all stakeholders. That is
very important.
The people I referred to earlier worked in the various port
development corporations and were part of the consultations, as
were Quebec stevedores and marine carriers who are shipowners.
The outcome of all this will be the marine policy that is about
to be announced. I believe it will be a historic moment for the
use of the mighty river, an extraordinary rebirth that will
allow the St. Lawrence to return to what it once was, a fantastic
means of connection with other continents.
This week we were visited by a lobby of people involved in the
Canadian marine industry. One of the things they explained to
us was that a lot of shipping within the Americas is done by
truck, but the main connection between Quebec and Canada's
businesses and the rest of the world is by water. We now know
how important transportation infrastructures are.
When it comes down to it, this is often what determines whether
or not a product can be sold elsewhere. If savings can be
achieved on shipping costs, then contracts get signed.
There is a fairly important issue at stake and that is to know
where the ships will pass. Is it not to our advantage to have
the St. Lawrence used properly and the possibility of going in as
far as Montreal, then using another means, including the railroad
or truck, in order to maximize the impact of this industry?
If it is passed, this bill we are debating today will make a new
form of ownership and participation possible for the community in
port facilities. At the same time, this would mean flexibility
so that a provincial government could acquire a number of
facilities and give responsibility for management to local
authorities.
This model is to some extent the result of the consensus there
has been in recent years. I hope that the federal government will
apply the same sensitivity to this issue it applied in the
context of consultation on the Canada Marine Act. Initially,
Canadian port authorities were supposed to become local owners
and be subject to all municipal laws, including taxation.
Following consultation throughout Canada, the situation was
corrected. The federal government retained ownership, but handed
management over to local authorities. The results have been
good. The model has proven itself. However, when it came to the
regional ports, the government neglected to provide for this
situation.
I think that the bill I am proposing would be a worthwhile
amendment, an update of the Canada Marine Act. It would
establish these situations and would give regional ports the
opportunity to help the regions develop.
In my area, the port of Cacouna is an important infrastructure.
A gas pipeline is being built and will, in the medium term, run
from Sable Island through Rivière-du-Loup to the port, which
could be used to export gas. The port could also be used to
export other products, such as the powdered milk that is produced
in Saint-Alexandre de Kamouraska and sold in North African
countries.
The whole lumber export trade could also be redeveloped and a
coastal shipping system could be set up. The link to the north
shore would relieve some of the road transportation traffic in
that area, and would prevent problems, particularly for the
tourist industry.
Therefore, we must take a new look at the whole issue of river
transportation to make it one of the elements of an integrated
transportation policy, which I think would have been done long
ago if transportation were the responsibility of one government
only.
1730
Let us look at what has happened in the past. Being responsible
for roads, the provincial government invested money so that
everything would work fine. The federal government was
responsible for other things. In some cases, it was so far away
that it did not necessarily make appropriate investments.
Had there been only one government, it could have ensured that
its policy allowed intermodal transportation to maximize the use
of the St. Lawrence River, which could have maximized the impact
of ports, like the one at Cacouna, where the water is deep
enough.
This would have made the port a point of contact with the
northeastern American states. This could have led to greater
economic development than we now have.
In conclusion, I wish to say that this bill would contribute
positively to better use of existing port infrastructures in
Canada. I know that the regions are prepared to take over the
management of these port facilities.
I believe that governments, such as the government of Quebec,
would be able to carry the load of a comprehensive system. We
could share use of all the ports, which would maximize benefits
and enhance international marketing.
I hope that this House is listening and that members pass this
bill to amend the Canada Marine Act.
The economies of all regions of Quebec and of Canada would stand
to benefit.
[English]
Mr. Brent St. Denis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for
his work on Bill C-253.
The Canada Marine Act, which the member would like to amend,
calls for a statutory review by June 2003. Given that there are
a lot of other items that would certainly need to be reviewed
under the umbrella of the Canada Marine Act, it is our view on
this side that his proposals would best be left for review, again
to be concluded by June 2003.
Let me explain a little bit about the Canada Marine Act and why
we feel the way we do, notwithstanding the good work he has done
thus far and, no doubt, will continue to do.
The Canada Marine Act was passed in 1998. It was intended to
and does help the Canadian port system to become more efficient,
competitive and commercially oriented to commercialize the
operations of the St. Lawrence Seaway and ferry services and to
improve the operations of pilotage authorities. It marked the
first comprehensive effort to increase competitiveness and to
reduce costs in the marine sector. By making it easier for ports
to operate according to business principles, it will make the
marine sector even more competitive than it is now.
The benefits of the act are substantial. Ports benefit from
reduced red tap, increased freedom to develop contracts and
leases and to set tariffs and fees, and because funding no longer
comes from the federal treasury, they will be free to pursue
private sector capital to finance port projects.
The Canada Marine Act was a product of a lengthy and
comprehensive review process. In 1994 the then minister of
transport requested the House of Commons standing committee on
transport to undertake a broad review of the marine sector in
recognition of an inherent need to modernize Canada's marine
system to ensure that the major ports and other marine
infrastructures were in a strong position to respond to the
demands in international trade, which is critical to Canada's
growth.
In other words, there was a need for a port system that could
serve both domestic and foreign shippers efficiently, one that
was not only reliable and competitive but also one that could
compete with the best in the world.
The standing committee issued its report in 1995 after hearing
the views of provincial governments, municipalities, organized
labour, shippers and other marine industry stakeholders.
In December of 1995, following a further round of consultations,
we announced our national marine policy and our intention to
bring in legislation containing comprehensive changes to the
ports, the seaway, the ferries and the pilotage components of the
marine industry.
1735
The Canada Marine Act received royal assent on June 11, 1998.
The Canada Marine Act is a success story. Canada's major
commercial ports are now competing on a level playing field for
the first time. They have the tools they need to compete in the
21st century.
The St. Lawrence Seaway, which runs right past our Speaker's
door in his riding, has been commercialized with control passing
to a non-profit corporation controlled by the users of the
system. It is saving money on operations. Ferry services have
also been commercialized and changes to the pilotage regime have
been implemented.
The Canada Marine Act provided the authority to dissolve the
Canada Ports Corporation, which the government did on November 1,
2000. It was not long ago that the running of Canada's ports was
being stifled by too much centralized government decision making,
including the role played by Canada Ports Corporation.
To remain competitive with American ports, Canadian ports needed
to reduce their transaction times and their overhead costs to
make the kinds of local decisions that make commercial sense. The
new port authorities have been a great success because control of
the ports is now in the hands of those best able to adjust to
competition and introduce greater efficiency in the marine
sector.
This sector is vital to Canada's competitiveness in a global
economy. It provides us with a key strategic advantage in the
movement of key commodities for important industries such as
steel and container traffic. It is also becoming evident that
the marine mode is in a good position to benefit and participate
in the growth of the worldwide tourism industry.
The cruise industry in Canada is witnessing a staggering growth
on both the Pacific and Atlantic coasts in the number of visits
being paid annually to the Canadian ports and in the amount this
industry adds to the Canadian economy. Canada's cruise industry
is forecast to continue its growth for some time to come.
It should also be noted that the world looks to the marine mode
to provide leadership in terms of setting the standard for an
environmentally sustainable and safe mode of transport. It is
evident that the marine mode is not just important for economic
reasons but because of the Canada Marine Act it has contributed
to other aspects of our well-being.
The intent of the Canada Marine Act was to curtail the federal
government's extensive involvement in port operations, to
introduce a high level of commercial decision making, to
encourage financial self-sufficiency and to reduce inefficiencies
and overcapacity, which I believe are being achieved.
As well, under the old regime we believe that the taxpayers of
Canada were not receiving an adequate return for the funding of
many port development projects over the years. To date, as a
government, we have created 18 Canada port authorities and will
soon have 19 when the Hamilton port authority is created.
Canada port authorities are defined as federally incorporated,
non-share capital, not for profit corporations with powers and
responsibilities similar to corporations established under the
Canada Business Corporations Act. Under this regime, which
combines various aspects of the old port regimes, the Canada
Marine Act has given Canada port authorities the autonomy and
flexibility to operate according to business principles and to
make investment decisions to the overall benefit of the port
authority.
The proposed amendments contained in Bill C-253 will create a
third class of ports which will receive automatic federal
funding. These ports will be competing directly with Canada port
authorities who are legally prohibited from receiving federal
appropriations other than under a program of general application.
Under the Canada Marine Act, port authorities operate in a more
commercial manner than under previous regimes. As Canada port
authorities are not eligible for federal appropriation of funds,
they are required to borrow funds from private markets. This
gives port authorities the ability to make investment decisions
to their overall benefit without government approval in advance,
thereby allowing a quicker response time in the ever changing
business environment of today.
In addition, the Canada Marine Act gives port authorities the
ability to make their own operating bylaws and charge harbour
dues without having to obtain governor in council approval. By
making it easier for ports to operate according to business
principles, cut excessive red tape and reduce overhead costs, it
puts port authorities in a better position to meet their own
needs and the needs of their customers. Also, port authorities
now have increased authority to lease land and to determine
priorities associated with capital expenditures.
If a new port class were to be created and were to receive
subsidies, it would undermine the level playing field of the
financial rules and authorities that have been created for ports
coast to coast. The government's view is that the current
proposal is unnecessary and would re-introduce the inefficiencies
and overcapacity that existed prior to the Canada Marine Act.
1740
Another main objective of the Canada Marine Act was to focus the
Government of Canada's attention on ports vital to domestic and
international trade. These ports have become or will become
Canada port authorities. All other ports, except for those that
serve the remote regions of the country, are to be divested to
local or regional interests.
I believe that local users are in the best position to determine
the level of service required at these ports and that the
Government of Canada is prepared to negotiate a fair and
reasonable transfer funding package to help ensure the long term
viability of these facilities.
In that regard, the government has also established a $125
million divestiture fund. The purpose of this fund includes the
following uses: bringing existing port divestiture up to a
minimum safety or operating standard, covering a portion of the
cost incurred by the transferee in complying with regulatory or
insurance requirements, making a lump sum payment to facilitate
the takeover of a port, assisting a group of communities or other
interests to take over a collection of ports and to achieve cost
savings by rationalizing infrastructure.
The intent of the fund is to facilitate port transfers and to
provide a one time contribution to help ensure the port's long
term viability.
A lot of good work has been accomplished by the government
through the Canada Marine Act. Its five year review will be
coming up by June 2003. I would encourage my hon. friend across
the way to discuss his ideas with other stakeholders in the
marine community and to make sure his ideas are brought into the
mix during that review. We wish him well, nonetheless, with his
work on behalf of his constituents.
Mr. Joe Comartin (Windsor—St. Clair, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
I am pleased to rise in support of the bill. I will restrict my
comments primarily to the experience we have had in my home
community, an experience which has been less than pleasant in
spite of what we have heard from the government in the last few
minutes.
I am quite interested in the approach that my friend from the
Bloc has taken in terms of recommending that authority be given
under this bill to transfer the management and control of these
ports to the province. We ultimately would like to see them
divulged down to the municipality because of the experience we
have had in the city of Windsor.
However, as I have indicated, we are quite prepared to support
the bill because I think inevitably, at least in Ontario, the
result would be that the province would give the municipality the
authority to manage and control these lands and the traffic that
works its way through.
I strongly support the point my friend from the Bloc made about
the need for an integrated policy around transport. However I
would add that we also need an integrated program that would
allow the municipalities to do the municipal planning they need
to do in order for a large city to function.
There is another point that needs to be made. Because of the
nature of some of the lands that the port authority has in the
city of Windsor the issue of conservation raises its head.
The experience that we have had in Windsor has not been a
pleasant one. There has been a great deal of conflict between
the local and municipal authorities around the issues of how
transport is handled and how some of the shipping is done,
particularly around the issue of municipal planning, and some of
the lands the port authority holds. The city has had specific
designs for not only its land but for some of the land
surrounding it. There has been quite severe friction in some
cases over the role the municipal government has and the planning
that it wishes to do for these lands in a macro way. It has been
thwarted on a number of occasions by the local authority in that
regard.
I filed a petition with the House a week or so ago concerning
one specific piece of land that borders the Detroit River. It is
a piece of land that would act as a bridge to a large
conservation area that we have in Windsor but which is controlled
by the port authority.
It wishes to develop it in a commercial fashion that would in
effect act as a barrier for wildfowl that uses the Detroit River
as a base and moves through this other region. This particular
piece of land acts as a bridge. There is a local environmental
group in Windsor that has been trying to get the land designated
as a park but it has received absolutely no support from the port
authority in that regard.
1745
There have been other times where there was development with
which we wanted to go ahead within the city and it too has been
thwarted in various ways by the port authority because of its own
self-interest.
I want to make one additional point concerning the history of
the legislation that we now have. My friend from the government
talked about the review that went on in the mid-nineties that
culminated in legislation in 1998. Windsor sent a delegation to
Ottawa at that time to put forward some specific proposals as to
how the legislation should deal with the land and the control of
it and its proposals were totally ignored.
The amendments that are being proposed in the form of the
private member's bill would be much more in keeping with the
position that Windsor had taken at that time.
I am pleased to indicate that my party supports the private
member's bill. Assuming that it is not successful in passing,
and I assume that will be the case given the government's
position, the issue will be raised again at the end of the five
year review. I assure the government and my friend from the Bloc
that at that time Windsor will be here once again to make
proposals on how the land should be more properly dealt with.
Mr. Norman Doyle (St. John's East, PC): Mr. Speaker, it
is a pleasure to have the opportunity to say a few words on Bill
C-253, an act to amend the Canada Marine Act.
The summary at the beginning of the private member's bill
indicates that the bill would create a new class of port under
the name “local port council”. The summary goes on to say:
Regional and local ports that become local port councils are not
required to be financially self-sustaining when they are
incorporated and may receive financial assistance from the
federal government.
It goes on to say:
When a local court council becomes financially self-sustaining,
some aspects of a local port council may be transferred to the
government of the province where the port operated as a local
port council is located.
As this is a private member's bill I assume the hon. member
proposing the bill must have a port or ports in his region or
constituency that fits the thrust of the bill. In the ordinary
course of events many ports that were operated directly by the
federal government over the years have been placed under local
port authorities.
It is interesting to see what has happened in some of the
eastern Canadian provinces and, in particular, in my own province
of Newfoundland. The federal government has been delinquent in
how it has been treating small communities that have these
wharves. These little wharves and local ports were built under
Canada works projects or LIP grants. Since the current
administration came to power about 10 years ago it has completely
abandoned those small communities and has sent them adrift.
When communities look for money to do repairs on these small
local wharves they are given the old song and dance routine that
it is no longer viable to keep these wharves and ports operating.
As a result they have become dilapidated. The federal government
waves its hand and says that they are not getting any money
because they have become dangerous and a hazard to navigation.
1750
Therefore it is okay for ports that have sufficient traffic and
an appropriate infrastructure already in place. They are able to
get along quite well. They have financial viability combined
with the flexibility and sensitivity that can only come from
independent local management. However, in the case of small
communities, the viability of these small ports and wharves
cannot be maintained without the involvement of the federal
government.
The problem arises when the local port has dedicated local users
or it is vital to the local economy but it is not viable in the
financial sense. The government appears to be getting out of the
business of running such facilities as a service to the public.
For example, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans is currently
divesting itself of 325 harbours nationwide. That is a blow to
the communities. A full 42% of these ports are located in the
province of Newfoundland. I would say to my colleague that there
is quite a number of them located in Nova Scotia, in Guysborough
county, and in New Brunswick. However 42% of them are in
Newfoundland.
Given the state of the province's rural economy, many harbours
will have nobody coming forward to set up a local port authority.
Perhaps many of the harbours in other provinces on the list are
also non-viable in a financial sense. What will become of them?
In the past, many of the wharves, sheds and breakwaters were put
out to tender for dismantling or demolition, but the watchword of
the federal government these days is viability or debt. If it is
not viable it goes. The parliamentary secretary gets up and
gives such glowing reports on the federal government and how it
is looking after all these things when that is simply not true.
I invite him to come to Atlantic Canada. He should get out of
central Canada for a change and get out in the boondocks. He
should come to Atlantic Canada and see what is going on in the
small communities. I am sure the parliamentary secretary and the
Minister of Transport would have a much different outlook on what
they are doing to these small communities. The watchword of the
federal government is viability or debt as far as ports and
harbours are concerned.
Incidentally the same applies to airports. We have many
airports in rural Canada that are being forced under local
airport authorities and are now facing a struggle for their very
existence. Such airports might be invaluable to the local people
and economy, but the traffic volumes are not there to sustain an
economically viable operation. The end result for many of these
ports and airports would be closure unless the government is
willing to subsidize the operations.
Bill C-253 does not directly address the policy question about
whether or not the federal government should directly maintain
financially non-viable ports as a public service. However the
member proposing the bill is offering the federal government an
indirect route to maintain non-viable ports by setting up a new
entity called local port councils.
In the bill the government is being offered a vehicle through
which it can subsidize the continued existence of financially
non-viable ports. The parliamentary secretary and the Minister
of Transport would do well to listen to the member who is
proposing the bill.
I note that the wording in the bill reads that the minister may
approve the setting up of a local port council. The Minister may
make financial assistance available to such a port council. The
Minister may transfer all or part of such a facility to the
provincial government if the port becomes financially viable.
The local people in an area might be all for setting up a local
port council to save a financially non-viable port, but they
would be dependent on the goodwill of the minister to turn any
of that into a reality.
1755
To give it more teeth, a bill such as this one should try to
establish certain objective criteria for port viability. Once
the port meets those criteria, it is appropriate for there to be
wording in the bill to say that the minister shall provide
funding until such time as it becomes viable. The problem is
that I am not sure the minister would want to be bound by the
word shall.
The government appears to be getting out of running all kinds of
services that are not financially viable. If local entities
cannot run services on a self-sustaining basis, we can expect
their closure or elimination. As I said a moment ago, with the
current government the watchword has been viability or death over
the last seven or eight years.
If nothing else, the member's bill points out a growing reality
of the total elimination of federal services in institutions in
rural Canada. The post office is now in the local drug store.
The rail spurs are gone. The local airport is closing. Ports
and harbours are being abandoned or dismantled.
The member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough said that the
federal government was hot to trot on trying to get out of a
whole range of services. It is looking at banks. It is looking
at an awful lot of things. As I said, viability or death is the
watchword of the government.
If the bill helps the member draw attention to a potentially
viable port in his area, and if it sheds light on the problems we
are having in rural Atlantic Canada, it is worthy of the effort.
I congratulate the member on presenting the bill. We certainly
support it.
[Translation]
Mr. Antoine Dubé (Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
knowing my interest for the maritime sector, and for
shipbuilding in particular, members will certainly understand
that it was with great pleasure and enthusiasm that I accepted
the invitation extended to me by my colleague from
Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques to speak to his
bill.
There is a second reason why I accepted his invitation. It is
because—he will not like this because I did not tell him in
advance—through his dedication to defending the interests of his
region and his riding, this member and colleague is a model for
us all.
He is very active in the House and cannot be accused of being
negative. The proposal contained in the bill that he drafted
some time ago and that we are debating today is one that the
government seems to have considered.
I heard the remarks made by my Liberal colleague from a riding
whose name I have unfortunately forgotten.
An hon. member: The riding of Algoma—Manitoulin.
Mr. Antoine Dubé: I listened to the Liberal member for
Algoma—Manitoulin and he was very receptive to the idea. It is
nice to see this kind of attitude from members on the other side
of the House from time to time. He probably saw the benefit of
such a policy with regard to ports.
I also have a third reason for taking an interest in this
debate. Even though I represent the riding of
Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, I was born in the riding of my
colleague from the Bloc Quebecois.
Specifically, I was in the Rivière-du-Loup section of the riding.
When I was young, although I am still not all that old, a number
of election campaigns were waged over the future of the port of
Cacouna, what we locally call Gros-Cacouna.
I remember one Liberal MP at that time, now deceased, and also,
it must be said, the former mayor of Rivière-du-Loup. The people
must have been behind him because he was elected seven times in
all. Something really interesting occurred, however. In just
about every election, he promised he would get the port. He was
a model of perseverance. After he finally got the port, he lost
the next election.
1800
Perhaps the Prime Minister has learned a lesson from this, and
feels it is better to make promises than to follow through on
them. I hope that is not the case. This was a typical
situation, and one known to everyone in eastern Quebec.
I do not want to downplay the importance of the other gulf
ports, but this was and still is, the most important south shore
port, next to Quebec. For the region this is a port with a really
important infrastructure. My honourable colleague's proposed
solution is an appropriate one, because such an infrastructure
cannot stand alone overnight the way things are at present.
The port is still the property of the federal government, which
wanted to see it taken over by the local community. The bill
presented by my colleague is a kind of compromise; it is like
applying the principle of the community taking over an
infrastructure of this size, while at the same time saying “Hold
on, let us be realistic. This cannot be done so soon, just like
that”.
It is therefore a matter of amending the Canada Marine Act to
enable this community, which really wants to take over this
port, but which also lacks the ability as things stand at the
moment to develop it as it would.
Of course, I support my colleague's bill, but there is a project
even longer in the developing than the port of Cacouna. It took
even more elections. I am talking of the famous merchant marine
policy.
The government has talked of it as long as I can remember, and I
became interested in the policy very early on. This has been
discussed since the second world war.
During the war, Canada had one of the largest merchant marine
and warfare fleets.
With three oceans, the longest seaway in the world and the
presence of the largest market in the world, the United States,
how is it that we still have to plead for a merchant marine
policy, a transportation development policy?
Maritime transportation is the most advantageous, the most
economical in economic terms, the least dangerous in ecological
terms and the form of transportation that carries 80% of goods
the world over.
Let us have a quick historical overview. A retired general
spoke to me about the veterans.
He gave me his point of view as to what had made Canada change
direction after the war. There were thousands of people working
in the shipping industry, in ports. Cabotage was booming. What
happened?
I will briefly describe what happened. Tax havens began to
appear in the marine sector. People legally use all sorts of ways
to pay less for people working on ships, to avoid paying
corporate taxes and so on.
Originally this was a result of unionization. At the time
people did not want that. The government co-operated in that
regard. This is old stuff. This led to unionization by an
American group. In the end it turned into a big mess.
1805
We have been talking about this issue for years. If we had had
one more week last year my bill on shipbuilding would have been
passed. So far, I have not introduced a new bill on shipbuilding
because there has been a coalition.
The minister agreed to set up a committee bringing together
union officials, employers and his own representative, with a
mandate to report back to him. The minister has had this report
for close to two months and he promised he would do something,
but it takes time.
Had my bill been passed the problems in shipyards would already
have been solved.
Fortunately the government of Quebec is concerned about this
issue, perhaps because of the associate minister of transport,
Jacques Baril. He will soon be presenting a shipping policy
within the framework of Quebec's jurisdictions.
This will revive the issue of coastal shipping on the St.
Lawrence River. In this context the future is even brighter for
the port of Cacouna, an important infrastructure that is solid,
well designed and very well located. Shipping activity between
ports on the St. Lawrence River in Quebec is one more argument
in favour of this bill, in favour of an integrated federal
policy.
Interprovincial and international trade comes under federal
jurisdiction. Again, I was impressed this week to see all the
people who are interested in this issue: pilots, exporters,
carriers, shipowners, builders. One of the problems that cannot
be overemphasized is that we need an integrated approach because,
as far as I know, at least 12 departments are involved.
I appreciated the comments made by our colleague opposite and by
members of the other parties on this issue. I can see that the
debate is moving ahead. I remember Rosaire Gendron, who
represented the riding of my colleague from
Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques some time
ago. With patience and perseverance, he succeeded in having the
port of Cacouna built.
I hope the bill introduced by my colleague will lead to a true
policy for the development of small ports in Canada, and in
Quebec, of course.
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les
Basques, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I must say that I am quite pleased by
the favourable reception the member for Algoma—Manitoulin has
given my bill. I do not know if I may presume he was speaking on
behalf of the government, but it is interesting that he thinks
this should be included in a review of the Canada Marine Act.
The problem is that the review will not take place until 2003.
The process of port divestiture is scheduled to end in 2002.
There is therefore an undefined period that will not contribute
to the economic development of the regions. I am very pleased by
the favourable reception this bill has had, and would be more so
if the government had accepted to have it passed as quickly as
possible.
Indeed, the whole issue of the importance of maritime
transportation, the need for an integrated development strategy
in this sector, is making itself felt. I think the government of
Quebec has taken the lead on this issue. It will be announcing
its strategy soon, and it will be interesting to see how the
industry receives it. I think the consultation undertaken will
show this to be a joint industry and government project.
1810
It would be a good thing if the federal government listened to
all the arguments put forth by hon. members following the
awareness day we had on this issue earlier this week. A true
marine strategy must be developed and implemented as quickly as
possible to deal with issues such as the merchant navy,
shipbuilding, intermodal transportation and environmental
protection.
In that regard, I just wanted to make one constructive proposal
to give regional ports new impetus so that they can look after
their development, and to allow local communities to do their
share in that development, while at the same time not
overburdening them with the cost of infrastructures, which can
quickly run into the tens and even the hundreds of millions of
dollars. It is from that perspective that I submitted my
proposal.
I am pleased by the general reaction to my bill here. If the
government feels that it is indeed a worthwhile piece of
legislation, I would ask for the unanimous consent of the House
to make it a votable item.
The Deputy Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Paul Crête: Mr. Speaker, I did not obtain the unanimous
consent of the House, but I simply wish to conclude by saying
that the substance of the bill was well received. I will pass
the proposals along, so that the Department of Transport can
consider them. It will see what is acceptable from its point of
view, and will discuss them.
However, we must avoid years of delay, which will result in
regional ports being denied a satisfactory tool of development.
That is my main concern in this bill.
The Deputy Speaker: The hour provided for the consideration of
private members' business has now expired. As the motion was not
selected as a votable item, the item is now dropped from the
order paper.
ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
[English]
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to
have been moved.
LUMBER INDUSTRY
Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Mr. Speaker, I had a
question some time ago on softwood lumber. What brought my
question about was the fact that from the Progressive
Conservative Party's perspective we did not see any specific
agenda that the government had to deal with the full-fledged
crisis in softwood lumber. We felt the government did not have a
plan or direction. It was treading water and not responding to a
very important issue facing Canadians from coast to coast to
coast.
Rural Canada depends upon the softwood lumber industry as a
major job producer. It produces a large percentage of the gross
domestic product in Canada. It is an important issue.
I have another point to which I would ask the parliamentary
secretary to respond. The government keeps saying that the
softwood lumber industry is part of free trade. What has it done
about it? How many delegations and when did we start sending
them to the U.S. to speak to our counterparts in a minister to
minister type of situation? The Minister of Industry says one
thing while the Minister for International Trade says another.
The Prime Minister is not responding at all.
Six provinces had free trade with the United States. The
Atlantic accord kept Atlantic Canada out of the softwood lumber
agreement and provided free trade for Atlantic Canada, which has
a long tradition in free trade going back to the 1800s between
New Brunswick and Maine. Manitoba and Saskatchewan were also
included in free trade.
There were only four provinces that did not have free trade:
British Columbia, Alberta, Ontario and Quebec. Those four
provinces obviously need to get in on the free trade agreement,
but everyone has been sucked into the vortex. Now, as everyone
predicted, the Americans are playing hardball by putting in
countervailing duties and anti-dumping is being claimed against
all 10 provinces in Canada.
1815
The countervail was not a problem. We have beaten countervail
before, especially in eastern Canada, and we would expect to beat
it again. The anti-dumping became a much more serious problem
because that included all the provinces automatically and there
was no opt out clause for anti-dumping.
We have seen a long list of mistakes that the government has
made. It did not start two or three years ago dealing with the
Americans on softwood lumber. It had no plan, no direction and
no initiative on the Canadian side to deal with this extremely
important issue.
We have local sawmills in the South Shore riding that I
represent which have shut down and are no longer exporting
because they do not know what is down the road. Quite frankly
they cannot put themselves into the precarious position where
they possibly get slammed with an anti-dumping situation and a
large fee or a countervail duty to which we do not expect to be
susceptible but could be. Every time something like this issue
goes to an international court it becomes a precarious
situation.
I would like to hear the government tell us what it has done
about the softwood lumber agreement and when it expects to see an
end to it.
Mr. Pat O'Brien (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for
International Trade, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is incredible to
hear the hon. member raise those points. It boggles the mind
that he could be that misinformed about what the government has
done. I do not know if he believes that the government has done
nothing or if he has just been in rhetorical flight. Let me
remind my colleague about what the government has done on behalf
of Atlantic Canadians and all Canadians.
First, this matter was raised at the highest levels by the Prime
Minister of Canada on several occasions with President Bush. This
matter was raised by the Minister for International Trade
repeatedly with his U.S. trade counterpart, Bob Zoellick. When
we were in Quebec City for the summit, the minister and I both
had the opportunity to raise the issue with commerce secretary
Evans.
It has been raised on a repeated basis. There have been wide
consultations with the industry. The hon. member must surely
know that. There have been weekly, sometimes daily, meetings
with the stakeholders in Atlantic Canada in particular and
throughout the country.
The minister continues to put forward the idea of an envoy, a
more sensible way to try to resolve this dispute. There was very
little interest apparently from the Americans until recently. Now
we are at the point where Mr. Zoellick has been raising it with
the Minister for International Trade. Perhaps we are finally
starting to see the Americans realize that there does not have to
be the unnecessary confrontation they have caused.
The fact of the matter is the government's position is very
clear. I respect that the hon. member represents a riding in
Atlantic Canada, but the government is charged with taking care
of the interests of all stakeholders from coast to coast to
coast.
This is not a matter of east versus west in Canada. It should
not be that. I encourage the hon. member and all hon. members
not to weaken our position by playing to that kind of argument
because it is divisive and it is not constructive.
This is a matter of north-south. The United States is the one
which has said it would not exempt the Atlantic provinces. We
have supported the claim of the Atlantic provinces for an
exemption, as we will support any province that feels it has the
right to an exemption.
Let me conclude by saying there has been a clear national
strategy. There has been a huge amount of work. I ask the hon.
member to pull back his partisanship a bit and support the
government in trying to put forward a national case.
The Deputy Speaker: The motion to adjourn the House is
now deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly the House stands
adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m. pursuant to Standing Order
24(1).
(The House adjourned at 6.19 p.m.)