37th Parliament, 1st Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 012
CONTENTS
Tuesday, February 13, 2001
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
1005
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Procedure and House Affairs
|
| Motion for concurrence
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
1010
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACT
|
| Bill C-2—Time Allocation Motion
|
| Hon. Don Boudria |
1055
(Division 4)
| Motion agreed to
|
| PRIVILEGE
|
| Bill C-2—Time Allocation
|
| Mr. Chuck Strahl |
1100
1105
| Hon. Don Boudria |
1110
| Mr. Michel Gauthier |
1115
1120
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
1125
1130
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
1135
| The Deputy Speaker |
1140
| Mr. John Williams |
1145
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACT
|
| Bill C-2. Second reading
|
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
1150
| Mr. Ken Epp |
1155
1200
| Mr. Murray Calder |
1205
1210
| Mr. Rick Casson |
1215
1220
| Mr. Lynn Myers |
1225
1230
| Mr. Mario Laframboise |
1235
| Mr. Bill Matthews |
1240
1245
| Mr. Charlie Penson |
1250
1255
| Mr. Ghislain Fournier |
1300
1305
1310
| Mr. David Chatters |
1315
1320
| Ms. Wendy Lill |
1325
| Mr. Marcel Gagnon |
1330
1335
| Mr. Geoff Regan |
1340
| Mr. Rob Anders |
1345
1350
1355
| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
| AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY
|
| Mr. Maurizio Bevilacqua |
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Ms. Lynne Yelich |
| MEDAL OF BRAVERY
|
| Mr. Jerry Pickard |
1400
| JOB CREATION
|
| Ms. Bonnie Brown |
| HEART AND STROKE FOUNDATION
|
| Mr. Lynn Myers |
| SASKATCHEWAN CURLING
|
| Mr. Roy Bailey |
| EAST COAST MUSIC AWARDS
|
| Mr. Mark Eyking |
| ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
|
| Ms. Francine Lalonde |
1405
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Mr. Inky Mark |
| TRANSPORTATION SAFETY
|
| Mr. Andy Savoy |
| HEALTH CARE
|
| Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
| ELIZABETH GRANDBOIS
|
| Ms. Paddy Torsney |
1410
| GAMES OF LA FRANCOPHONIE
|
| Mr. Benoît Sauvageau |
| SAMUEL DE CHAMPLAIN
|
| Mr. Denis Paradis |
| FOOD INSPECTION AGENCY
|
| Mr. Rick Borotsik |
| PORNOGRAPHY
|
| Mr. Joe Comuzzi |
| INTERNATIONAL TRADE
|
| Mr. Keith Martin |
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
1415
| ETHICS COUNSELLOR
|
| Mr. Stockwell Day |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mr. Stockwell Day |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mr. Stockwell Day |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Miss Deborah Grey |
1420
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| TRADE
|
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
1425
| Mr. Pierre Paquette |
| Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
| Mr. Pierre Paquette |
| Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
| HUMAN RIGHTS
|
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Hon. John Manley |
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Hon. John Manley |
1430
| ETHICS COUNSELLOR
|
| Right Hon. Joe Clark |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Right Hon. Joe Clark |
| Hon. Brian Tobin |
| Mr. Joe Peschisolido |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mr. Joe Peschisolido |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| YOUNG OFFENDERS
|
| Mr. Michel Bellehumeur |
1435
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
| Mr. Michel Bellehumeur |
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
| ETHICS COUNSELLOR
|
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| HOME HEATING ASSISTANCE
|
| Mrs. Pauline Picard |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| Mrs. Pauline Picard |
1440
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| MINISTER OF FINANCE
|
| Mr. Brian Pallister |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mr. Brian Pallister |
| AMATEUR SPORT
|
| Mr. Jeannot Castonguay |
| Hon. Denis Coderre |
| HEALTH
|
| Ms. Libby Davies |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
1445
| Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT BANK OF CANADA
|
| Mr. André Bachand |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Right Hon. Joe Clark |
| Hon. Brian Tobin |
| ETHICS COUNSELLOR
|
| Mr. Monte Solberg |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
1450
| Mr. Monte Solberg |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| REPRODUCTIVE TECHNOLOGIES
|
| Mr. Réal Ménard |
| Hon. Gilbert Normand |
| Mr. Réal Ménard |
| Hon. Gilbert Normand |
| ETHICS COUNSELLOR
|
| Mr. Randy White |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mr. Randy White |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| TRADE
|
| Ms. Judy Sgro |
1455
| Mr. Pat O'Brien |
| INFRASTRUCTURE
|
| Mr. Ted White |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| Mr. Ted White |
| Hon. David Collenette |
| CORRECTIONAL SERVICE CANADA
|
| Ms. Pierrette Venne |
| Hon. Lawrence MacAulay |
| HUMAN RIGHTS
|
| Ms. Anita Neville |
| Hon. Hedy Fry |
1500
| PARLIAMENTARY REFORM
|
| Mr. Vic Toews |
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| PRIVILEGE
|
| Procedure and House Affairs—Speaker's Ruling
|
| The Speaker |
1505
1510
1515
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACT
|
| Bill C-2. Second reading
|
| Mr. Joe McGuire |
1520
1525
| Ms. Francine Lalonde |
1530
1535
| Mr. Loyola Hearn |
1540
1545
| Ms. Judy Sgro |
1550
| Ms. Diane Bourgeois |
1555
1600
| Mr. John McKay |
1605
1610
| Mr. Stéphan Tremblay |
1615
1620
| BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| Motion
|
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACT
|
| Bill C-2. Second reading
|
| Mr. Bryon Wilfert |
1625
1630
| Ms. Monique Guay |
1635
1640
| Mr. Peter Adams |
1645
1650
| BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
|
| Ms. Marlene Catterall |
| Motion
|
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACT
|
| Bill C-2. Second reading
|
| Mr. Gérard Asselin |
1655
1700
| Mr. John Cannis |
1705
1710
| Mr. Ghislain Lebel |
1715
1720
| Mr. Wayne Easter |
1725
1730
| Mrs. Bev Desjarlais |
1735
1740
| Ms. Diane St-Jacques |
1745
1750
| Mr. Réal Ménard |
1755
1800
| Mr. John Bryden |
1805
1810
| Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold |
1815
| Division on motion deferred
|
| SUPPLY
|
| Allotted Day—Ethics Counsellor
|
1835
1840
1850
(Division 5)
| Motion negatived
|
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACT
|
| Bill C-2. Second reading
|
1855
(Division 6)
| Motion agreed to
|
| FINANCIAL CONSUMER AGENCY OF CANADA ACT
|
| Bill C-8. Second reading
|
(Division 7)
| Motion agreed to
|
| SPEECH FROM THE THRONE
|
| Resumption of debate on Address in Reply
|
1900
(Division 8)
| Motion agreed to
|
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| Motion
|
| EMERGENCY DEBATE
|
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Mr. Rick Borotsik |
| Motion
|
1905
1910
| Right Hon. Joe Clark |
1915
1920
| Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
1925
1930
| Hon. Andy Mitchell |
1935
1940
| Mr. Stockwell Day |
1945
1950
| Mr. Howard Hilstrom |
1955
2000
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
2005
2010
| Mr. Marcel Gagnon |
2015
2020
| Mr. Dick Proctor |
2025
2030
2035
2040
| Mr. Bob Speller |
2045
2050
| Mr. Wayne Easter |
2055
2100
| Mr. Garry Breitkreuz |
2105
2110
| Mr. David Anderson |
2115
| Mrs. Karen Kraft Sloan |
2120
2125
| Mr. Alex Shepherd |
2130
2135
| Mr. Charlie Penson |
2140
2145
| Ms. Cheryl Gallant |
2150
| Mr. Jerry Pickard |
2155
2200
| Mr. John O'Reilly |
2205
2210
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
2215
2220
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
2225
| Mr. Jacques Saada |
| Motion
|
2230
| Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur |
2235
2240
| Mr. John Maloney |
2245
| Ms. Carol Skelton |
2250
2255
| Mr. Leon Benoit |
2300
2305
| Mr. Gerald Keddy |
2310
2315
| Mr. Loyola Hearn |
2320
2325
| Ms. Sarmite Bulte |
2330
2335
| Ms. Susan Whelan |
2340
| Mr. Kevin Sorenson |
2345
2350
| Mr. Grant McNally |
2355
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 012
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Tuesday, February 13, 2001
The House met at 10 a.m.
Prayers
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
1005
[English]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have the honour to present the first report of the Standing
Committee on Procedure and House Affairs regarding the membership
and the associate membership of the committees of the House.
If the House gives its consent, I would move concurrence in
the first report without debate.
The Deputy Speaker: Does the parliamentary secretary have
the consent of the House to present the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Deputy Speaker: The House has heard the terms of the
motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Deputy Speaker: I am simply asking the
House if it gives its consent to the motion presented by the
Parliamentary Secretary to the Government House Leader. I
will ask once again. Is there unanimous consent for the motion
put forward by the parliamentary secretary?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Derek Lee: Mr. Speaker, if you would check the
record, when I proposed the motion for the disposition of this
matter without debate the House gave its consent and then I
proposed it. If there was no concurrence, then that is another
issue, but I did propose it.
The Deputy Speaker: We had a two step process. First, I
asked the House if it gave its consent for the motion to be put
forward and the House agreed. Second, I asked if the House
gave its consent for the motion and that was denied.
I will hear further motions if there are any.
Mr. Derek Lee: Mr. Speaker, I have an additional motion.
I ask for unanimous consent to propose the following motion for
disposition without debate. If the House gives its consent I
would move that the following members be added to the list of
associate members of the Standing Committee on Procedure and
House Affairs, and a list of some dozens of members is appended.
I will not read the list.
The Deputy Speaker: Does the hon. parliamentary secretary
have the unanimous consent of the House to move the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
* * *
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I ask
that all questions be allowed to stand.
The Deputy Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
1010
The Deputy Speaker: The Chair was given notice that a
member would rise on a question of privilege. Since the member
is not in the House at this particular time, I will put the
matter aside.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACT
BILL C-2—TIME ALLOCATION MOTION
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.) moved:
That in relation to Bill C-2, an act to amend the Employment
Insurance Act and the Employment Insurance (Fishing) Regulations,
not more than one further sitting day shall be allotted to the
consideration of the second reading stage of the said bill and,
fifteen minutes before the expiry of the time provided for
government business on the day allotted for the consideration of
the second reading stage of the said bill, any proceedings before
the House shall be interrupted, if required for the purpose of
this Order, and in turn every question necessary for the disposal
of this stage of the bill then under consideration shall be put
forthwith and successively without further debate or amendment.
The Deputy Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to
adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Deputy Speaker: All those in favour of the motion
will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Deputy Speaker: All those opposed will please say
nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Deputy Speaker: In my opinion the nays have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Deputy Speaker: Call in the members.
1055
[Translation]
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Adams
| Anderson
(Victoria)
| Assad
| Augustine
|
Bagnell
| Barnes
| Bélair
| Bélanger
|
Bennett
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Binet
|
Bonin
| Boudria
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
|
Caplan
| Carroll
| Castonguay
| Catterall
|
Cauchon
| Charbonneau
| Coderre
| Collenette
|
Comuzzi
| Cotler
| Cullen
| Cuzner
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Dromisky
|
Drouin
| Duhamel
| Duplain
| Easter
|
Eggleton
| Eyking
| Farrah
| Finlay
|
Fontana
| Fry
| Gagliano
| Gallaway
|
Godfrey
| Goodale
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
| Hubbard
|
Jackson
| Jennings
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
|
Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Laliberte
|
Lastewka
| Lavigne
| LeBlanc
| Lee
|
Lincoln
| Longfield
| MacAulay
| Macklin
|
Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
| Manley
|
Marcil
| Marleau
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Matthews
|
McCallum
| McCormick
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
|
McLellan
| Mills
(Toronto – Danforth)
| Minna
| Mitchell
|
Murphy
| Myers
| Nault
| Neville
|
Normand
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Owen
|
Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
|
Peterson
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pratt
| Price
|
Proulx
| Redman
| Reed
(Halton)
| Regan
|
Robillard
| Saada
| Savoy
| Scott
|
Serré
| Sgro
| Shepherd
| Speller
|
St - Julien
| Steckle
| Stewart
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibault
(West Nova)
| Thibeault
(Saint - Lambert)
| Tirabassi
|
Tobin
| Tonks
| Torsney
| Ur
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Whelan
| Wilfert
|
Wood – 133
|
NAYS
Members
Ablonczy
| Anders
| Asselin
| Bachand
(Richmond – Arthabaska)
|
Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bailey
| Benoit
| Bergeron
|
Bigras
| Blaikie
| Borotsik
| Bourgeois
|
Brien
| Brison
| Burton
| Cadman
|
Cardin
| Casson
| Comartin
| Crête
|
Cummins
| Day
| Desjarlais
| Desrochers
|
Doyle
| Dubé
| Duceppe
| Duncan
|
Elley
| Epp
| Fitzpatrick
| Forseth
|
Fournier
| Gagnon
(Champlain)
| Gagnon
(Québec)
| Gallant
|
Gauthier
| Girard - Bujold
| Godin
| Gouk
|
Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Guay
| Guimond
|
Hanger
| Herron
| Hill
(Macleod)
| Hinton
|
Keddy
(South Shore)
| Laframboise
| Lalonde
| Lanctôt
|
Lebel
| Lill
| Loubier
| Lunn
(Saanich – Gulf Islands)
|
Lunney
(Nanaimo – Alberni)
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Marceau
| Mark
|
Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Mayfield
| McDonough
|
McNally
| Meredith
| Merrifield
| Moore
|
Nystrom
| Obhrai
| Pallister
| Paquette
|
Penson
| Perron
| Peschisolido
| Picard
(Drummond)
|
Plamondon
| Proctor
| Rajotte
| Reynolds
|
Ritz
| Rocheleau
| Sauvageau
| Skelton
|
Solberg
| Sorenson
| Spencer
| St - Hilaire
|
Stoffer
| Strahl
| Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
|
Toews
| Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean – Saguenay)
| Tremblay
(Rimouski - Neigette - et - la Mitis)
| Vellacott
|
Venne
| Wasylycia - Leis
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| White
(North Vancouver)
|
Williams
| Yelich
– 102
|
PAIRED
Members
The Deputy Speaker: I declare the motion carried.
* * *
[English]
PRIVILEGE
BILL C-2—TIME ALLOCATION
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege arising from the
motion brought forward by the government House leader in relation
to Bill C-2. The government brought forward that notice of
motion yesterday and we have now dealt with it in the House.
This is the second parliament in a row where the very first bill
introduced by the government has been time allocated. A
restriction on debate has already been brought forward by the
minister in a very inappropriate way. I would like to explain
what I think should happen in the follow up to this.
The use of closure and time allocation under this government has
reached, I would argue, a disturbing and critical point of
frequency. In the last parliament Bill C-2, the CPP legislation,
the very first bill debated by parliament, was time allocated
after only a few hours of debate. In this parliament the very
first bill, the pro forma Bill C-2, again has been time allocated
after a few hours of debate.
It is the same government, the same minister, and I would argue
the same misuse of authority by using time allocation in this
extremely unorthodox way.
On October 8, 1997, the hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona
raised a question of privilege regarding the closing off of
debate on Bill C-2 in the last parliament. The member argued
that our right to adequately debate was increasingly being
violated by the government's rush to judge how much time was
needed to debate a particular piece of legislation.
Beauchesne's sixth edition, citation 3, outlines some elements
of the Constitution Act and our system of government which I
believe are relevant to this very point. It states:
More tentative are such traditional features as respect for the
rights of the minority, which precludes a Government from using
to excess the extensive powers that it has to limit debate or to
proceed in what the public and the Opposition might interpret as
unorthodox ways.
Going back to the argument presented on October 8, 1997, by the
member for Winnipeg—Transcona, he suggested that the Chair
intervene on behalf of the collective rights of parliamentarians
to ensure that the traditional features as outlined in the
citation I just read are upheld.
While the Speaker ruled not to intervene at that time, I would
argue that since then and since we are embarking on the 69th
record time allocation motion by the government, the moment has
arrived to declare the measures imposed by the government today
as excessive and unorthodox as described by citation 3 of
Beauchesne's.
The case has been made that the Chair possesses no discretionary
authority to refuse to put a motion of time allocation. I do not
agree with this claim. I will prove, I believe, that the Speaker
does possess the authority to refuse to accept this motion.
On May 2, 2000, during a discussion of the rule of time
allocation with the Standing Committee on Procedure and House
Affairs, the then Clerk of the House of Commons, Robert Marleau,
responded to a question regarding the Speaker's authority to
protect the minority in the manner described earlier. The Clerk
said:
—it exists intrinsically in the role of the Speakership all the
time—where there could be the tyranny of either side. It could
be the tyranny of the majority or the tyranny of the minority.
At a subsequent meeting on May 4, 2000, the Clerk suggested that
with time allocation the Speaker is less likely to intervene.
There is a reference to this on page 570 of the House of
Commons Procedure and Practice. However, the Clerk stopped
short of suggesting that the Speaker would never intervene. He
used as an extreme example that if the government time allocated
every bill at every stage the Speaker might intervene, quite
properly.
My interpretation of what the Clerk has said is that there
exists a limit to what a majority government can do with respect
to time allocation. The interpretation is supported by the
citation I mentioned earlier from Beauchesne's, which states that
a government is precluded from using to excess the extensive
powers it has to limit debate.
The Clerk used the extreme example in his response because he
knows it is not up to the Clerk to establish the limit to this
unorthodox behaviour. We know, for example, that the 68 times
the government has used time allocation apparently was not too
many times. How many is enough?
Yesterday the government House leader gave notice of his
intention to move the 69th motion, and now we have a new
parliament and a new Speaker. I would argue we are at an
epiphanal moment here for this new parliament.
I would suggest to the Speaker that 69 motions moved
within seven years for the sole purpose of muzzling the
opposition on controversial legislation is excessive. It is
unorthodox and it should not be tolerated.
1100
On page 369 of Marleau and Montpetit there is a reference to an
intervention by the Speaker on a time allocation related tactic
used by the government. It describes how Speaker Fraser ruled on
the government tactic of skipping over routine proceedings in
order to go to orders of the day. As we are all aware, that
tactic, if it had been allowed, would secure for the government
the opportunity to move time allocation at will.
While Speaker Fraser had ruled such a motion in order on April
13, 1987, page 369 references another ruling where the Speaker
ruled out of order a similar motion only a few months before. In
other words, Speaker Fraser used his judgment on each and every
situation and ruled accordingly.
In other words, an activity that might be completely in order
today would be completely out of order in another set of
circumstances. The Speaker has to use his or her judgment in the
chair to rule these motions appropriate, out of order,
unorthodox, or in excess. It is within the power of the Speaker
to make that ruling and I would appeal again to the Speaker today
on that basis. As Speaker Fraser demonstrated, a Speaker can
intervene and should intervene when a government abuses its power
and the rules of the House.
The rule governing time allocation can be found in Standing
Order 78. Standing Order 78 provides for more than one day of
allocated debate if the government never exercises this option,
even on time allocation.
The government, by only allocating the minimum amount of time to
debate each stage of a controversial bill, prevents the
opposition from doing its job in the House of Commons. It
prevents the opposition from enlisting public support for its
point of view.
The right of an opposition to raise the profile of an issue in
debate is one of the indispensable principles that make up
parliamentary law and parliamentary procedure. These principles
are described in Beauchesne's sixth edition:
To protect a minority and restrain the improvidence or tyranny of
a majority; to secure the transaction of public business in an
orderly manner; to enable every Member to express opinions within
limits necessary to preserve decorum and prevent an unnecessary
waste of time; to give abundant opportunity for the consideration
of every measure, and to prevent any legislative action being
taken upon sudden impulse.
Parliament is fundamentally about debate. It is also about the
right to dissent in a civilized manner. Genuine political
opposition is a necessary attribute of democracy, of tolerance
and of trust in the ability of citizens to resolve differences by
peaceful means. That is why we come here to debate issues. The
existence and the tolerance of an opposing point of view are
essential to the functioning of parliament and to the functioning
of a modern democracy. Speaker Fraser put it this way:
It is essential to our democratic system that controversial
issues should be debated at reasonable length so that every
reasonable opportunity shall be available to hear the arguments,
pro and con, and that reasonable delaying tactics should be
permissible to enable opponents of a measure to enlist public
support for their point of view.
The Right Hon. John Diefenbaker, in an address to the Empire
Club in Toronto in 1949, had this to say:
If parliament is to be preserved as a living institution, His
Majesty's Loyal Opposition must fearlessly perform its functions.
The reading of history proves that freedom always dies when
criticism ends.
In 1967 a distinguished parliamentarian, the late Stanley
Knowles, added this comment to the debate:
I submit, therefore, that you do not have full political
democracy let alone the economic as well as political democracy
unless you include a full and unquestioned recognition of the
rights and functions of the opposition to the government of the
day. Only in this way can you protect the rights of minorities.
Only in this way can you make sure that the force of public
opinion will be brought to bear on the legislative process.
One of the reasons an opposition exists is to some day replace
the government. The opposition should conduct itself in
parliament, so as to persuade the people of the country that it could
be an improvement on the government of the day.
Our system of government works best when there is a change of
government at reasonable intervals. However, if the government
continues to silence the opposition at every turn, the opposition
will never be able to use parliamentary debate to persuade the
people of Canada. While the rights of the opposition are
immediately and most visibly at stake here in this debate,
ultimately the threat is to democratic rights and freedoms
generally.
I would like to make a couple of suggestions to the Chair.
First, perhaps it is time for the Chair to seriously consider the
amount of authority and the amount of discretion that is
available to him while he sits in that important position. The
next time a motion to cut off debate is introduced prematurely in
the House, I would argue it is time for the Speaker to look the
other way, to not recognize the government House leader, and to
say it is inappropriate, too early, not right, to stop the debate
so early in this parliament.
1105
I hope you consider that as an option, Mr. Speaker. If it does
not happen soon, early in this parliament, we will get set in a
pattern, as we have already seen, where the very first bill is
time allocated and where we are restricted in debate on the
opposition's side. Again we are unable to do our jobs in
proposing alternate forms of government to the people of Canada.
My second suggestion is that the government should seriously
consider reforming the House in a meaningful way. The Prime
Minister should stop referring to members as voting machines, as
stone statues doing his bidding in the House of Commons.
I would argue from this point forward that maybe the best you
could do for the opposition, Mr. Speaker, is to delay the moving
of a motion on time allocation, at least to use your discretion
to delay it for another day.
Every time the government House leader brings in a motion of
time allocation, he brings in the minimum amount of debate. He
closes off debate after one day. He could give more. He could
give two. He could give three days and limit debate. He could
allow for an ample discussion. However he uses the minimum
amount of debate every time to stifle the opposition and stifle
debate in the House.
I appeal to you in your position in the chair, Mr. Speaker, that
you have the authority and the support of the House to use your
discretion to give democracy a greater chance in the House. I
would urge you to do it from this point forward.
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I wish that the Leader of the
Opposition would listen attentively to what I am about to say. I
cannot refer to the presence or absence of anyone, but I really
hope he listens.
I am responding to what has been said by the opposition House
leader. I know that those who do not want the bill to pass and
have so indicated wish for me to dispense with what I have to
say. Perhaps this is a way of getting themselves out of the
embarrassing situation in which they have placed themselves.
Mr. Monte Solberg: Let us put closure on his speech.
Hon. Don Boudria: I think I have just heard the answer to
what I have alleged and it is definitely in the affirmative. It
sounded a lot like a plea of guilt over there.
Today the opposition is saying that there is a question of
privilege. Of course there is no such issue before the House.
This would be at best a point of order if it were valid.
The Chair is asked today to rule on the so-called “unorthodox
behaviour of the government in having used time allocation at
second reading of a bill on the third day that it is being
debated in the House of Commons”.
Need I remind the House that in the U.K. House, for instance,
every bill is time allocated to one day by definition at second
reading, time allocated to around an hour at third reading, and
now under the new parliamentary reform in the U.K. every bill
will be time allocated in committee under what is called
programming.
If using time allocation is unorthodox then I say a number of
parliaments must be unorthodox. I will give an example of
another parliament, more particularly the legislative assembly of
the province of Alberta.
This issue has occurred pursuant to our standing orders. This
procedure exists in our standing orders and has existed for some
time. Yesterday I gave notice of my intention to move this
motion today. Not once was it challenged at the time that the
notice was provided to the House.
Today the motion was moved, and only after the motion was voted
on, only after the point became moot, did the hon. member
actually raise it as an issue.
1110
An hon. member: So what.
Hon. Don Boudria: The hon. member across argues so what,
so what if the rules are being bypassed this way. I would like
to tell the House about the precedence of time allocation. I ask
all colleagues to listen attentively to the issue of Bill 19, the
school amendment act in the province of Alberta where closure was
used at second reading, at committee and at third reading. Do
you know which House leader was doing this, Mr. Speaker?
What about the seniors benefit act in the province of Alberta
where closure was used at second reading and at committee? This
procedure has to be correct. Do you know who used it, Mr.
Speaker?
What about the much despised bill 11 of the province of Alberta?
Do you know who time allocated that bill at every stage, Mr.
Speaker? You would be right in guessing that it is the same
person, the person who is the leader of the party that is now
raising this issue in the House of Commons.
In the province of Alberta closure was used at every stage to
close down kindergarten in that province. Do you know who the
house leader was who used that procedure, Mr. Speaker?
All these things have one element in common. The person who is
the Leader of the Opposition today in this House moved those
motions in 100% of the occasions. Surely the person across must
have been democratically minded when he did all that. Heaven
forbid that he was anything else.
There are three things I bring to the attention of the House.
First, proper notice was given of the use of time allocation.
Second, it was the third day of debate at second reading on the
issue. Third, those today who are saying that time allocation
should not be used should put a giant mirror in front of
themselves.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I would like to
add my voice to that of my colleague from the Canadian Alliance.
I am concerned that the arguments put forth by the government
House leader relate to behaviours exhibited in the Alberta
legislature, not here in the House of Commons.
The debate must be put back in its proper perspective. Let us
look at what is going on here in the House of Commons.
Let me simply remind the government House leader that, before
throwing stones in the neighbour's backyard, he should look at
the figures for the sessions during which he has been in charge
of the business of this House.
The hon. member is right on target when he stresses the
importance of the bill before us, in this second day of debate.
We have had one day of debate, one hour yesterday, in the
afternoon, and this morning the government is moving time
allocation.
So, the first argument to the effect that this is the third day
of debate is completely inaccurate. In fact, there has been one
day of debate, one hour at the end of the day yesterday and
today the decision has been made to move time allocation.
This is totally unacceptable, because the bill before us more or
less seeks to restore and review the employment insurance
program which, in recent years, has aroused very strong
criticism from people in all regions of Quebec and Canada.
Moreover, this bill follows a government commitment dating back
to the last election campaign. People have a right to know that
what triggered an extremely important debate in Quebec and a
commitment by the Prime Minister and most of his big guns in
Quebec is now being debated in the House of Commons for a few
hours, because of a gag order.
1115
Now we are being asked, after a few hours of debate, to put an
end to the discussions. The government is in such a rush to get
its hand officially on the $30 billion belonging to the
taxpayers—
An hon. member: That's the real reason.
Mr. Michel Gauthier: —the government is in such a rush to
legalize the holdup of the employment insurance fund—
An hon. member: That's the real problem.
Mr. Michel Gauthier: —the government is in such a rush to follow
up on the commitments it made half-heartedly during the campaign
that it wants to stop talking about them.
In certain cases, those promises have had the effect of
misleading people in need of employment insurance. They were
led to believe that the government would be open to bringing in
changes to put an end to unfair treatment. The government
claimed to be concerned about the unemployed and those with
major social problems caused by government funding cuts. This
is what people were promised during the campaign. Today, after
one day of debate—could we say one day plus one hour—the
government wants to end the discussion.
The people of all of Canada, and particularly the people of
Quebec, to whom these commitments were made, have a right to
know that today the government wants to muzzle the members of
the House of Commons, prevent them from discussing these vital
matters, prevent them from raising here the many cases in their
ridings reported to them daily over the past few years by people
who are suffering because of the government's appetite and
never-ending desire to pocket money that belongs to someone else.
That is reality.
I would remind hon. members, and I support my Canadian Alliance
colleague on this, that the Liberal government has changed, but
changed for the worse.
I would point out that, between 1968 and 1972, under the Trudeau
government—and these figures are meant for you, Mr. Speaker, and
I hope they will guide you in your ruling—during the 28th
parliament, the ratio of time allocation motions to the number
of sitting days was 0.3%. This means that, at the time, for 0.3%
of sitting days, debate was held under a time allocation motion
imposed by the government.
In the last parliament, for 7.7% of sitting days, there was a
threat to cut off debate, which was held under a time allocation
motion.
In the sessions under Mr. Trudeau, between 1968 and 1972 and
between 1974 and 1979, time allocation was imposed in the case
of 0.9% of the bills introduced, that is 4%. That is the
percentage. In other words, time allocation, as we are facing
now, was invoked in the case of 4% of the bills introduced under
the Trudeau government.
In the last parliament, under this government, the figure was
not 0.9% or 4%. Of all the bills tabled in this House, 21.6%
were passed under time allocation.
An hon. member: Shameful.
Mr. Michel Gauthier: When my colleague speaks of a threat to
democracy, when debate on 21% of the bills introduced in this
House end in time allocation, we are entitled to ask where the
government is headed with this.
The ratio of time allocation to bills receiving royal assent was
1.3% under Trudeau, 6.3% in his third mandate, 16% under the
Conservative Prime Minister and 11% under Trudeau-Turner at the
time.
How many times was time allocation invoked under the Liberals in
the last session? We are not talking about 1%, 3% or 6% but
30%. Thirty per cent of bills passed by this House were subject
to time allocation.
Seriously, how can citizens be expected to respect the work we
do in the House? How can they be expected to respect members
who are fresh from an election campaign and have promised to
review a bill which has such a negative impact on Quebecers and
Canadians?
1120
How can they be expected to take seriously a government that
promised right and left that it would sort out the employment
insurance issue and that said it had not done so before the
election because the Bloc Quebecois had blocked the bill, when
in fact it was introduced just before the end of the session?
How can members of the public be expected to respect a
government that allows only one day of debate so that it can
officially get its hands on $30 billion belonging to them? How
can we be expected to respect a parliament in which 30% of the
bills passed were subject to time allocation? How can we talk
about democracy when the primary objective of the government
opposite is to prevent members on this side of the House from
expressing their views on something as fundamental as employment
insurance?
I too ask the Chair to keep a critical eye on the government's
behaviour in the future. It is too late now, because, once
again, we have just voted. The government brought in a time
allocation motion. We will no longer be able to debate
employment insurance in the House because after one day the
government has decided that it has heard enough.
This is a disgrace. I am asking the Chair to try to
remind the government that it is engaged in an extremely
dangerous exercise, which consists in gradually eliminating what
is left of the democratic process in parliament.
The government is not only arrogant because of its strong
majority, it also no longer tolerates, in a debate like this
one, the diverging views expressed by the opposition. Electronic
voting will soon be introduced in the House. Perhaps the whips
will rise to vote on behalf of members of parliament. We will
become mere pawns in this place and we will no longer be allowed
to talk or to vote. We will no longer be able to remind the
government that it made promises to people and that it is not
fulfilling them.
I want to tell the government House leader that Quebecers will
remember that, during the election campaign, the government
promised to tone down the provisions of the Employment Insurance
Act. Quebecers will remember that the House leader and his
government took steps to ensure that the real issues would not be
debated and solved, and that they have given official sanction
to their holdup of the employment insurance fund. This is
unacceptable.
[English]
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
I thought I might assist the Chair by reflecting on some of the
arguments that have been made so far.
It is said that politics makes strange bedfellows. This is no
less true of procedural arguments when we find the Alliance House
leader citing myself, the Bloc House leader citing Pierre
Trudeau, and finally, even more interestingly, the government
House leader citing the Leader of the Opposition and seeking
refuge in the actions of the Leader of the Opposition when he was
in the Alberta legislature for what the government is doing
today.
This is certainly the strangest of the arguments that we have
heard, because it may well be the case that the Leader of the
Opposition had an affinity for closure when he was in the Alberta
legislature. When it comes to closure one could say of almost
all governments that we have all sinned and fallen short of the
glory of God when it comes to time allocation and closure,
particularly those who have had the experience of government.
However, two wrongs do not make a right and a hundred wrongs do
not make a right. Every introduction of time allocation and
closure has to be judged on its merits
That is what we are asking the Chair to do. There is time
allocation that comes after lengthy debate and there is time
allocation that comes after insignificant or insufficient debate.
1125
I believe that what we have developed in this parliament, which
I think is grounds for the frustration we find here today, is a
tradition of introducing time allocation after insufficient
debate. Major measures are introduced in the House but the
government is very impatient. It would have been unthinkable at
one time, as the House leader for the Bloc pointed out, for
something as significant as this to be time allocated after only
a day or two of debate.
Debate is not something to be avoided in this place. Some may
have noticed that we have on the wall out there in the NDP part
of the lobby a quote by the former dean of this House, the member
for Winnipeg North Centre, Stanley Knowles, who said on December
10, 1968, probably in a debate about procedural reform or on a
point of order:
Debate is not a sin, a mistake, an error or something to be put
up with in parliament. Debate is the essence of parliament.
All the opposition asks is that when we deem it appropriate, we
be allowed to debate things for a sufficient period of time. What
we are asking for in this parliament is certainly not a pattern
of obstruction.
I remind the Chair that yesterday a bill of 900 pages in length
passed this House in one day of debate and went to committee,
just as the government asked. So this is not a pattern of the
opposition saying that the government cannot do its business,
that we will tie up the house of Commons and nothing is going to
happen. That is not what we are talking about here. We are
talking about one bill, a very significant bill having to do with
changes in employment insurance, and various opposition parties
are saying that they want to debate it a little while longer,
that they have some concerns they want to put on the table.
When another bill, a significant piece of legislation in
anyone's judgment, Bill C-8, the financial services sector
legislation or whatever it is called, which is, as I said, 900
pages long, is debated in this House for one day and sent to
committee, there is no pattern of obstruction there.
I believe, as I have argued before, that the Chair does have and
should exercise the power to restrain governments that are time
allocation happy, shall we say, and this is certainly a
government that falls into that category.
It makes it all the more ironic that the government House leader
should cite what happens in Westminster. Westminster is an
entirely different situation, but if the government wants to talk
about Westminster, then let us talk about the power that the
Speaker has at Westminster when it comes to time allocation. We
only got one side of the story from the government House leader.
I do not think we should get too much into citing Westminster.
We have our own traditions in this place, but I think we can
learn from Westminster in the same way that we can learn from
other parliaments.
We have our own traditions here. We had a tradition in the
House that where there was a desire for lengthy debate on a
particular bill, that kind of debate was permitted. That
tradition has been allowed to erode over several parliaments.
This government takes it for granted that it has the right to
exercise its perceived right to bring in time allocation after
only a day or two of debate and it does not expect to even
receive any trouble for doing so.
So, Mr. Speaker, you do have something to consider here.
Unfortunately, I think the point is well taken that you cannot do
anything about time allocation on this particular bill because
the point of privilege was introduced after the vote. Perhaps it
should have been introduced before so that you would have had the
opportunity to rule on this particular time allocation, because
you really cannot rule on time allocation in general. You do
have to rule on time allocation specifically. This will, I
think, make it difficult for the Chair in this particular
circumstance.
However, I have every confidence that we will be here again.
Perhaps we will be here before a vote is taken or at the moment
at which a motion for time allocation is introduced, which would
give the Chair more opportunity to say, depending on the
circumstances, that it is a motion he is not going to hear at
that particular time because he does not believe the House has
been given sufficient time for debate on that particular matter.
1130
Finally, it does not surprise me that the government does not
want to have a great deal of debate on this. Maybe it does not
want Canadians to know in any great detail, thanks to the
speeches by opposition members, just what is in the bill and what
is not in the bill. Maybe it is embarrassed by the fact that it
has been literally robbing the unemployed for years and years to
pay for its surplus. It has been on the backs of the unemployed
and at the expense of the benefits that once would have gone to
unemployed people that the government has achieved its so-called
fiscal successes. Perhaps that is something that it would rather
not talk about. In that context, we fully understand the guilt
that has driven the government to this procedural extreme.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, having listened to all of the participants in this
particular question of privilege, there is much wisdom in what
has been said on this side of the House, the opposition side of
the House.
The greatest irony of all is that the government House leader
made many if not all of the same submissions when he was a member
of the opposition. I want to refer to a document that was made
public on January 19, 1993. It reads as follows:
Canadians, including those who are elected to serve in
Parliament, expect the House of Commons not merely to discuss
openly the problems of the nation, but also to advance solutions.
They expect the Commons to explore Canada's problems rationally
and to establish policies for resolving them. These expectations
are not being met.
The document further states:
As a result, debate on controversial legislation is usually
characterized by negativism, unnecessary repetitiveness and even
destructive oratorical pyrotechnics. This is the inevitable
result of depriving Members of the meaningful role for which they
were elected.
The final quote reads:
At present, reports to the House and debates are at the whim of
the Government leading to a lack of coherence and public
involvement in the discussion of these important issues.
This document, which bears on its cover, the distinguished name
of the government House leader, was entitled “Reviving
Parliamentary Democracy: The Liberal Plan for House of Commons
and Electoral Reform”.
The words of the government House leader have completely
reversed his position of not so many years ago. Obviously there
was a time in his life when he had greater respect for democracy
and for this institution, which Canadians are looking to at this
critical time to become relevant, an institution that would allow
all members of parliament to take part in meaningful debate.
To suggest that the bill that is now before the House is not
important enough to extend by a few hours the debate that is to
take place, is ludicrous. It is insulting to Canadians.
This legislation, which the government now diminishes by
bringing in time allocation, was important enough to dangle in
front of the electorate just prior to the election call. Let the
record show that the bill, had it been so important then, could
have passed through the House of Commons before the election.
There was significant support for that legislation. There still
is support for the legislation with some possible changes that
might take place at committee.
The excessive use of time allocation, which members on the
opposition side find tremendously offensive, is again something
that the government House leader used to rail against while in
opposition. He has gone to great lengths to point out what other
members and, in particular, the Alliance leader did while he was
a house leader in the provincial legislature. It struck me that
he was almost jealous that the Alliance House leader had taken
the use of time allocation to a new level that he has not yet
achieved.
Using time allocation 69 times obviously indicates that the
government House leader is a bit trigger happy. He has done this
at the earliest possible opportunity on this important
legislation. My colleague from Winnipeg—Transcona said that
100 wrongs do not make a right but certainly 69 wrongs do not
make a right.
We should look at each and every case on its merits and on its
individual aspects when it comes to the legislation itself.
1135
I would urge you, Mr. Speaker, to take the following question
into consideration in your learned deliberations of the issue.
What is the rush in this particular instance? What is the
presiding urgency of getting this issue through the House at
breakneck speed?
Mr. Chuck Strahl: They don't have a committee to send it
to.
Mr. Peter MacKay: The opposition House leader makes a very
valid point. The committee, which would receive this particular
bill, has not even been comprised. It is absolutely perverse
that we would rush the bill through so that it would be held in
abeyance. It would be nebulously floating out there somewhere in
never-never land waiting for the committee to be comprised.
I think we have to look at all the factual circumstances here.
The government House leader has jumped the gun. He has brought
in time allocation, and I will not use a vulgar analogy about why
dogs do certain things to themselves, but he is doing it simply
because he can. It makes one wonder if in fact the time that he
spent in opposition has left him with some deep psychological
sense of insecurity or maybe he spent a lot of time hanging
around in a gym locker when he was a kid because he is bullying
the House of Commons. That is what is happening.
In simple terms, the government House leader is taking advantage
of the rules because he can. There is no need whatsoever for the
government House leader to bring in time allocation on this bill
and in many other instances where he has exercised that
discretion.
Mr. Speaker, I do not want to prolong this. I understand that
you will consider the arguments that have been presented. I
believe that it was quoted by the Bloc House leader that 30% of
the bills that we have seen passed over the past seven years have
been time allocated. I would suggest that the percentage is an
outrageous proportion when one considers that the importance of
these bills are discussed in this place.
The role of each and every individual in the Chamber is to have
an opportunity to stand up and debate legislation. If we want
Canadians to have faith in this institution and in the relevance
of parliament, we must be able to debate intelligently and to
make suggestions, not just to take a wrecking ball approach but
to put forward thoughtful suggestions and thoughtful input into
legislation.
It is a pre-emptive strike by the government to bring in time
allocation on the bill when there is ample time to discuss it.
There is obviously no urgency for the government to have the bill
passed through the House in this instance.
The Deputy Speaker: I have listened attentively, as
all of you have, to this question of privilege raised by the
member for Fraser Valley, and subsequently followed by the
government House leader, the hon. member for Roberval, the member
for Winnipeg—Transcona, and finally the member for
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough. I know you would all recognize
that in each instance those members who spoke were all House
leaders of our respective five political parties in this 37th
parliament.
I believe the issue has been made quite clear through the
interventions of the various points of view, the arguments and
the suggestions put forward to the Chair for deliberation. I
would suggest that unless members have some new element to bring
to the attention of the House, I would like to take this
matter under advisement at this time.
1140
Mr. Chuck Strahl: Mr. Speaker, the reason this issue was
brought up today was that we were caught in a catch 22 in the
last parliament. We asked to raise the issue of time allocation
when the government had given notice of motion to bring it
forward. The Chair ruled that we could not raise it at that time
because the government had not followed through on its intention.
In other words, we were told to wait until the motion was
introduced and voted on and then we could deal with it. However,
once it had been voted on, the House had expressed its opinion
and therefore the Chair could not rule on it.
The reason the issue has been raised today in this manner is so
the Speaker will be able to get his head around it for the next
time. I know this was ruled on today, but you can understand the
dilemma that we in the opposition end up in. A motion is put
forward by the government but we are not allowed to speculate on
anticipated actions of the government, therefore the Chair will
not receive concerns about time allocation because the government
has not moved it. Once it has moved it, it is too late.
Mr. Speaker, this issue is for the next time. This whole
discussion today is about asking the Speaker to use his
discretion for the next time.
The Deputy Speaker: The Chair has tried to demonstrate
some patience and some generosity with regard to the
interventions. I do recognize the seriousness of this question
of privilege. The fact that we are so early into this new
parliament, and for all the reasons and those mentioned
previously, I will take this matter under advisement.
Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I just want to say that freedom of speech is a very
important thing in the House and debate on serious issues such as
this should not be cut off.
I totally disagree with the government House leader who said
that this is not a point of privilege. We are not just talking
about freedom of speech, we are talking about the freedom to
speak, and there is a big difference. Not only is the freedom to
speak very important in this House, but it is something that was
fought for and won at great cost over hundreds of years.
We have talked about the Westminster precedents. It was over
there that these battles were fought and won for the right to
speak. This debate should not be cut off. The government should
listen to every member of this House who wants to speak to a
bill.
We have had closure today, and we all know the debate has been
around that, but the closure has meant the denial of the right to
speak. When we lose that we might as well all just go right back
home because it means nothing if we cannot speak in this House
where our privileges are protected, and they are protected by
you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, you are not the chairman of the House, you are the
Speaker of the House, which means that you speak for the members
as they argue against the government. I am sure you are aware of
the historical record of how the Speaker had to fight to speak
on behalf of the ordinary members and stand up against the
government. It may have been the crown and the monarch in days
gone past, but now we have the government sitting right in the
House. It is your job to stand up for the members against the
government. We may have government members sitting in the House
but it is the government that tried to deny members the right to
speak. That cannot be denied.
I want to make one final point. We had this debate about a year
ago. It was last March I believe when the government was
consistently moving to orders of the day in order to bypass
routine proceedings. I believe our House leader referred to that
point when Speaker Fraser ruled that we could not move to orders
of the day. Last year when we challenged the government's right,
it withdrew the motion to move to orders of the day.
1145
Therefore I say to you, Mr. Speaker, on behalf of all members in
the House, that you have an obligation to stand on our behalf and
say that we have a right to speak and the government has a right
and an obligation to listen.
The Deputy Speaker: As I stated earlier, the question of
privilege before the House is a very serious matter. I have
ruled that I will take this matter under advisement.
If there are other points of order the Chair will receive them,
but the question of privilege is under advisement.
Mr. Leon Benoit: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
In his presentation the Conservative House leader read from a
document which had been prepared by the government House leader
back in 1993. I would ask that document be tabled.
The Deputy Speaker: That document could be tabled by
consent. Is there consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
* * *
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACT
The House resumed from February 12 consideration of the motion
that Bill C-2, an act to amend the Employment Insurance Act and
the Employment Insurance (Fishing) Regulations, be read the
second time and referred to a committee.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, I will continue my remarks from yesterday evening.
It is important that all Canadians acknowledge and realize that
this system pertains nationwide. It is not limited or directed
to any one region of the country.
The problems that exist in the system currently could very much
be improved if the government took the time to listen to seasonal
workers and to its own employees who handle EI problems in places
such as the maritimes. They have suggested on more than one
occasion that one method of improving the system and improving
the method of determining EI benefits over a pay period would be
to have it scrapped and replaced with a system of declaring hours
worked on a weekly basis. If people do not work during a certain
week they do not declare the particular week.
It is obvious that the EI system has major inadequacies that are
placing Canadians who need help into tremendous debt. I have
written personally to the current minister and the previous
minister on a number of occasions, and I have not had the
pleasure of a response, sadly.
On the issue of undeclared earnings, I wrote the HRDC minister
over two years ago but have not received a response. Even then
public concern over the inequity was growing. I have
subsequently written again and the minister has not responded.
The Conservative Party is generally supportive of Bill C-2, but
our support is conditional on the bill going before the committee
so there will be further analysis and hopefully the opportunity
to put forward amendments and changes, if necessary.
We are supportive to the extent that the bill will remove the
existing intensity clause and will be committed to fixing the
so-called repeater's rule which made it virtually impossible for
a woman to receive employment insurance if she left a job to have
a second child. However the Conservative Party does not support
the government's refusal to deal with artificially high EI
premium rates.
We would welcome the opportunity at committee to enact some of
the changes we proposed and put forward during the recent federal
election. Those included support for the continuation of an
independent employment insurance commission and its role in
recommending sustainable EI premiums.
The current legislation would give cabinet the power to set
premiums for 2002 and 2003, which actually gives the government a
further year to study the premium setting. This was the case
with the previous Bill C-44.
The thought of having this provision removed from the independent
body and handed to the cabinet and the finance minister is
unacceptable.
1150
Other groups, such as the Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices
Association, have spoken out against the move. The Conservative
Party supports the CRFA and its opposition to the Liberals'
approach, which is seen as very paternalistic and a manoeuvre
that would create more problems than it would address.
We are also committed as a party to the investigation, with the
employment insurance commission, of a proposal that would move
toward the establishment of an individual EI account and an EI
rebate program that would enable workers to roll a portion of
their EI contributions into an RRSP upon retirement.
There is no reason why EI rates are so high. At the end of last
year the EI account had a cumulative surplus of over $35 billion.
The $2.25 employee premium rate will drive the cumulative EI
surplus above the $40 billion mark by the end of 2001.
The recent auditor general's report blasts the government for
the way in which it has handled the account. The auditor general
rightly points out that the EI surplus is well over twice the
maximum amount that the chief actuary of HRDC considers
sufficient as a reserve for the account. This is because of the
unnecessarily high premiums that the government refuses to
significantly reduce.
As seasonal workers in Atlantic Canada and across the nation
suffer from the Liberal cash grab, it becomes very frustrating
for a member of parliament who represents an area with many
seasonal workers and high unemployment, such as Guysborough.
There is great frustration among those workers and employers when
premiums should and could be reduced to the $1.90 mark from the
current level of $2.25.
There is ample opportunity for the government to correct the
inadequacies in the bill. We look forward to the opportunity at
committee to bring forward amendments that would improve the
legislation.
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker,
I am pleased to enter the debate on employment insurance
revisions. Before I do that, I want to make a few comments about
the unconscionable action of the government in invoking time
allocation today.
It used to be that governments invoked closure, which basically
said that the House did not adjourn until the debate collapsed.
Those were days when the House would sit right through the night
and debate continuously until there were no members left to
speak.
Time allocation is even worse than that because it does not even
allow members to stay until midnight or two or four in the
morning to speak. It says that at 6.15 p.m. today we are done. I
think it is unconscionable of the government to say that we may
not even express our views after a certain point.
I am very fortunate that I am designated now to give a 10 minute
speech, so I am able to express my views. What about all the
other members who want to speak on behalf of their constituents
on this very important bill? They literally are not allowed to
do so because of the government's action in passing the motion a
few minutes ago.
Furthermore, it is very sad that all the members on that side
automatically vote for a bill such as this one, when on this side
we would very happily vote against time allocation or closure.
However, on that side a sudden transformation seems to take
place. They somehow deposit their brains at the door and become
stone statues. They no longer use their own heads. They just do
as they are told.
I know a certain degree of respectability is required in
parliament. We sometimes need to submit to each other. A
husband and wife do not get along unless they do that. We have a
certain degree of that in the House. However, it has to be wrong
when members blindly follow orders with which they do not agree.
I am very surprised that Liberal members do not have the
fortitude to stand on their own and say what they will do. We
will probably see the same thing tonight when members will all
vote against their own election platform of 1993.
1155
Parliament is being eroded. I am beginning to think that
perhaps my colleague from the previous parliament, Lee Morrison,
had it right when he said that this place really was a waste of
time because of all the restrictions and controls put on it by
the government.
I regret that Canadians did not see through this and that
Ontarians, because of all the misinformation, were once again
persuaded to elect Liberal candidates instead of voting for what
is right: a parliament that actually works on behalf of
Canadians.
In order to actually use my time I will say a few things about
Bill C-2, the amendments to the Employment Insurance Act. A
number of issues are very important to Canadians, and one of the
most important is that the rules should be the same for everyone
across the country.
I know one can say that in areas of high employment it is tough
to get a job, and that EI benefits in such areas should therefore
be increased or extended. That is a reality. However, right now
there is a problem of greater magnitude on the prairies with
respect to farmers.
When we lose our job we lose our income. Without income we
cannot provide for our families. We have great sympathy for
people who lose their jobs or who are in seasonal work. However,
there are also farmers in seasonal work who have now lost their
income because of the inaction of this government.
Input costs for farmers exceed what they are able to get for the
sale of their products. Consequently their incomes have gone to
zero or negative. Is there any help from the government for
farmers? Not that we can see. Big, heady announcements have
been made but nothing has been delivered.
What we get are farmers having to pay their accountants $500 or
$600 to do the bookwork to determine whether they are eligible.
When farmers do submit their applications they get back $5 or $10
because that is all they qualify for, and a bill from their
accountant.
It is absolutely absurd that the government cannot solve a
problem.
The government recently gave out $1.3 billion in energy rebate
cheques to Canadians, 90% of whom probably did not pay heating
bills. The government says that the rebate was meant to
compensate Canadians with high heating costs. However, the
government has totally mismanaged it. It is really a $1.3
billion boondoggle in the sense that the rebates went to people
completely off the target. The government totally missed the
mark.
The Employment Insurance Act also has a problem in reaching its
target. Frankly, if someone loses his or her job it does not
matter whether 10 or 100 of his or her neighbours have lost their
job. It is a very personal thing. The person is saying that he
or she has lost his or her job and income. It should not matter
whether they live in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Prince
Edward Island, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick or Newfoundland, if
people pay into EI and lose their job they should receive
benefits until they get another job.
We use the word insurance, so let us talk about insurance. What
if my house burned down and my insurance company said that
because not too many houses burned down in my area this year it
would not pay me? Insurance companies do not base their
decisions on that. If there is an area where a lot of houses are
being destroyed by fire they will probably look at it and see
what they can do in the area of prevention. This is another area
in which the government has totally dropped the ball.
To get people off unemployment they have to have jobs. Has the
government done anything other than make big announcements,
especially during an election campaign, about some teeny-weeny
tax cuts, instead of some substantial tax cuts and policies that
would encourage businesses not only to stay here but to establish
here and to create new employment? No, it has not.
1200
The unemployment rate is now going up and our economy is in the
doldrums. Why? It is because of the total failure of the
government to provide policies that would make our country
excessively strong in the world economy. We are hangers on with
a weak dollar. That is the only thing that seems to be an
advantage for Canadians right now because all of us are being
asked to take a 30% cut in our earnings in order to sell our
products around the world. That is helping but what a price we
are paying for that. It is not a long term solution.
There are a lot of things wrong with the EI bill. One of the
other things that comes to my mind is the total unfairness of the
employment insurance rate structure. I know the rates have
gingerly come down and the Liberals will crow about this.
The surplus in the EI fund is $25 billion, now possibly $30
billion in terms of the actuarial value. The present act says
that the chief actuary should give advice. At the present time
the surplus in the EI fund is double what it needs to be, yet the
government keeps collecting huge amounts of money from employers
and employees. In fact, it is collecting 40% more from employers
than from employees. No wonder these people do not have any
money to invest and to hire more people. That is the crux of the
matter.
What does this bill do? It takes away the actuarial requirement
and simply gives the rate setting structure as a new power to the
minister. No wonder we are upset about this bill. No wonder we
want to talk about it and change it. I wish the government would
be willing to do that.
Mr. Murray Calder (Dufferin—Peel—Wellington—Grey,
Lib.): Madam Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to speak
on this very important piece of legislation. This bill
illustrates once again the progressive agenda of the government.
The agenda was set with foresight in the beginning and has been
followed consistently ever since. This is an agenda that was
vindicated by Canadians in the last election. The critics of the
government claim that the contents of Bill C-2 represent
backtracking on the reforms introduced in 1996. Nothing could be
further from the truth.
If members will recall, it was generally agreed during the early
days of this government that the unemployment insurance scheme
had to be replaced. Everybody agreed to that. After much
consultation with Canadians and despite the outraged cries of the
opposition, the government brought in a program to replace the
old regime with the employment insurance program.
The new plan was designed to be sustainable, to be fair, to
encourage work, to reduce dependency on benefits and to assist
those in need and help workers get back to work and stay at work.
These goals are being achieved by the employment insurance
program.
The program was implemented with the knowledge that being new it
would not necessarily be perfect. We knew that time would show
up areas requiring improvement. The legislation allowed for a
period of continuous monitoring and assessment of the program to
measure its impact on people, communities and the economy.
This is not the first time adjustments to the EI regime have
proven necessary. The government acted quickly in 1997 to launch
the small weeks pilot project in order to correct a disincentive
for some people to work weeks with low incomes. Our studies and
discussions with Canadians have shown us that while many parts of
the EI program are working well, there are some provisions that
have proven ineffective or in some cases, punitive, particularly
toward seasonal workers.
1205
We have always had and always will have seasonal industries in
Canada. These industries are in fact vital to our economic
well-being. Because these industries by definition employ people
for only part of the year, we must ensure that our economic and
social programs include these workers.
While EI aims at helping all unemployed workers, we also have to
recognize that some groups, such as seasonal workers, have
particular needs and that the program does indeed have special
features built in to benefit seasonal workers. The hours based
system, for example, takes into account the fact that seasonal
work often includes long hours of work over a short number of
weeks. As a farmer I can attest to that.
As I have mentioned, one of the intentions of the EI program is
to reduce dependence on benefits by all Canadian workers,
including of course seasonal workers. The so-called intensity
rule was therefore introduced to discourage the repeat use of EI
benefits by reducing the benefit rate of frequent claimants. It
was designed to encourage people to take work.
However, we have gone through a period of unprecedented economic
growth and not all Canadians have benefited equally. Seasonal
workers tend to be among those whose fortunes have not improved
in step with the overall economy. Some regions still experience
double digit unemployment rates. This is reflected in our
monitoring and assessment reports. They indicate that the
proportion of benefits paid out to frequent claimants has
remained stable at around 40% since the introduction of the
intensity rule.
The unavoidable fact is that many seasonal workers may have
little choice but to resort to EI benefits. There simply may not
be enough job opportunities available to them in the off season.
In other words, what was intended as a disincentive to rely on
benefits has become a punitive measure where there are few
alternatives available. That is why Bill C-2 proposes the
removal of the intensity rule.
Meanwhile, to provide a real solution to workers in these
circumstances, the EI program retains one of its most important
provisions, the active measures under part II, the employment
benefit support measures.
Using these instruments, the government will continue to work
with the provinces and the territories and at the local level to
develop long term solutions that will diversify local economies
and make them self-supporting in providing jobs. The long term
solutions require a concerted effort by all levels of government,
businesses, community leaders and other Canadians to develop
effective measures.
We need measures to ensure that the necessary education and
training opportunities are there for the workers in the seasonal
industries. We need measures to promote economic diversity in
communities that rely on seasonal work. We need measures to
build the capacity of communities to become economically
self-sustaining. The government continues and will continue to
work in partnership with all Canadians to ensure that these
measures are developed and put in place. That is our commitment.
In the meantime, we should not forget that the new EI system
introduced in 1996 and subsequently improved remains effective,
equitable and responsible. The hours based eligibility system
provides access to benefits to people who were not previously
covered, including some seasonal workers and part time workers.
The first dollar coverage introduced by EI has removed the
incentive for employers to limit part time work in order to avoid
paying premiums. The changes contemplated in Bill C-2 will
improve the plan even further, helping to ensure fairness and to
serve the interests of Canadians in the labour market.
1210
The EI reforms of 1996 represented the most fundamental
restructuring of the unemployment insurance scheme in 25 years.
While debating the proposed areas of adjustment, we should bear
in mind that the core elements of EI are being maintained because
they work. I want to stress that. Why throw something out when
we know it works. That does not mean that the program is fixed
in amber.
The government will continue to monitor and assess employment
insurance and make changes if it becomes apparent. It is just
being flexible and that is what the government has always been
all about.
Mr. Rick Casson (Lethbridge, Canadian Alliance): Madam
Speaker, this is my first opportunity to rise in the House since
the House resumed sitting. I would like to congratulate you on
your position and certainly the other Speakers. I also would
like to thank the people back home who worked so hard to send me
back here.
I suppose that is what we are talking about, the people who
worked so hard to send us to represent them in the House of
Commons, yet we are now debating Bill C-2 under the restraints of
closure.
Before the motion on closure was brought in on the bill this
morning, another motion was brought to us, as members of
parliament, to accept a committee report without debate. We find
that wrong. It does not give us the proper opportunity to
represent our constituents' wishes.
People who believe in us have worked hard to send us here. They
support our beliefs and principles. We are all here for that
reason. However, we may have different ideas and philosophies on
how those things should be done. They support what we believe in
and they send us here to project and support their beliefs and
our beliefs.
It is with a great deal of distress that we continue to have the
motions of closure. This is the 69th time since 1993 that the
government has used closure. It is wrong because it limits the
opportunity of members of parliament, duly elected to represent
their constituents, to voice their opinions.
The member for Fraser Valley, the House leader for the
opposition, in his question of privilege really brought a lot of
these points to bear. We need to change things in the House
somewhat so we can better reflect the concerns of the people who
elected us. To a certain degree, the actions of closure really
put us in a position of not being able to do that.
After we complete debate Bill C-2 in the House today, it will go
to committee when the committees are struck. I think Canadians
need to know that the committees are all weighted in favour of
the government as well.
Regarding the report that was tabled this morning from a
committee, the government used its majority on that committee to
defeat a motion that would have allowed committee members to
elect a chairman of the committee by secret ballot. It is a
small thing but it would mean a great deal to put some
credibility at the committee level. However, it was voted down
by the government's majority.
When we finish with the bill at this stage, it will go to
committee. Will the government allow meaningful debate at the
committee level? Will it take meaningful suggestions? Will it
allow amendments? Will it just use its power again as majority
at the committee level to override anything that comes through?
We have seen it before. I sat through the committee
process on the discussions of the Canadian Environmental
Protection Act. There were many amendments and hours and hours
of meetings. In the end the government brought in its members
who were used as voting machines. They were completely unaware
of what the issues were. They were completely unaware of the
debate that had taken place. They were completely unaware of the
amendments that they would be voting on. They were nodded at
when it was time for them to stand and vote. That is wrong.
People who are making these decisions should at least be aware
of the issues. To see members whipped into line, to come to
committee and vote on a policy that they have no idea about is
wrong.
1215
With regard to these issues of closure, parliamentary reform,
the whole idea of committee involvement, and bringing back some
responsibility to us as members of the House of Commons, it is
not only our party, the official opposition, that is pushing
them. It is everyone. People in all roles, on the front bench,
on the back bench and on the government side, have passed
comments on our ineffectiveness as parliamentarians, on how our
ability to cause change has been eroded. It is not a single
party issue but an issue for all parties.
The Leader of the Opposition has stated that Canadians are
justly proud of our heritage of responsible government, but our
parliamentary democracy is not all that it should be. Too much
power is exercised by the Prime Minister instead of being shared
by our elected representatives. That really gets to the crux of
the matter. An excess of party discipline stifles open
discussion and debate, and grassroots citizens and community
groups feel that their opinions are not being respected or heard.
That gets to the real point of the discussion today. What we
are hearing from our constituents is not coming up through us and
getting to the House because debate is being limited and
committees are being structured in such a way that meaningful
change cannot happen.
The member for Toronto—Danforth, a member for whom I have a lot
of respect, hosted an event in Toronto last year to support
farmers from across the country. I respect him for doing that.
To do that in downtown Toronto and to have it come off as such a
success was a good thing. It brought some attention to the issue
at hand. Not much change has happened since then, but I
appreciate what he did there. He has stated that parliament does
not work, that it is broken, that it is like a car motor that is
working on two cylinders.
Let us fire up the rest of those cylinders. Let us make this
parliament work effectively and strongly. Let us put all the
horsepower behind it that we can. Let us give ourselves as
members of parliament the right and the ability to voice our
opinions.
The Liberal member for Lac-Saint-Louis, formerly a Quebec
cabinet minister, is another person I sat with on the environment
committee and is somebody for whom I have a great deal of
respect. He stated that being on the backbench they are typecast
as if they are all stupid and are just supposed to be voting
machines.
Recent statements made by the Prime Minister while in China
indicate that this is how he feels about his own backbenchers,
never mind other members of the House. He feels that they are
voting machines, that they will stand and be counted whenever he
tells them to.
Progressive Conservative Party members have not been left out of
this. They put forward in their last election platform that we
must reassert the power of the individual member of parliament to
effectively represent the interests of constituents and play a
meaningful role in the development of public policy.
We have to bring back into the House and into the hands of the
democratically elected members of parliament the ability to
effect policy. We cannot leave it entirely in the hands of
bureaucrats. I know the bureaucrats have a function, but
certainly their function should be to support what members of
parliament want and what they are putting forward.
The NDP House leader has been a champion of parliamentary
reform. He takes every opportunity to bring up the subject and
have it debated. Even today, in response to the question of
privilege by the official opposition House leader, he again
brought up point after point with regard to what needs to be done
to bring back some power to MPs.
Here is a quote from the front row, from the finance minister.
He finished a statement by saying that MPs must have the
opportunity to truly represent both their conscience and their
constituents. I like that statement because it pretty much
comes out of one of the policies and principles of this party,
which is that we vote as our constituents wish and we vote our
conscience.
The idea that we cannot do that is hard for people to believe.
Let us look at the alienation in parts of the country where
people feel they are not being brought into the mix, into the
debate. They feel powerless. There are simple things that could
be done to bring back the feeling people need to have, which is
that they are part of the process and when they cast their votes
it means something.
1220
The fact that the number of people voting in federal elections
in Canada is dropping is a crime in itself. Why are people not
engaged in the debate? Why do they not feel that their votes
count for something? We have seen in the United States how much
every vote does count. I think it is a fact that Canadians feel
that whatever the average guy on the street says or wants does
not make any difference.
Why would anyone elected to serve their constituents not back
changes to make the House more relevant? We need free votes in
the House of Commons. As members of parliament, we must have the
ability to vote as our constituents wish us to. I wish I had
more time to speak. There are so many things we could do, but
when we are debating Bill C-2, amendments to the Employment
Insurance Act, under a motion for closure, it just emphasizes
what is wrong with our system.
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I very much appreciate the time to talk about these very
important EI changes before us today and about the certainly very
concrete steps that the Government of Canada, this side of the
House, is proposing in this very important area.
Before I do, I want to somewhat address the crocodile tears we
hear from the members opposite when it comes to closure or time
allocation. Especially galling, I think, are the reformed
Alliance people. It was not so long ago that the Leader of the
Opposition was a member of the Alberta cabinet and the Alberta
government. When the government sat, which is, as we know, very
rare in Alberta, he brought in time allocation and closure on all
kinds of measures, including the restricting of seniors, the
shutting down of kindergartens, and of course the infamous bill
11. So this is really hard to take, from the people opposite
especially, who say one thing and propose to do quite another. If
anyone is the king of closure when it comes to those matters, it
is the Leader of the Opposition.
However, that is typical. I listened intently to the member who
spoke before me. I recall that in 1993 and again in 1997 a
Reform Party member of parliament took a poll of his constituents
on gun control. Guess what he found out? He found out that his
constituents actually liked what the Government of Canada was
proposing on gun control. Did he vote accordingly? No, of
course he did not, so again it was “say one thing and do
another”.
I could go on: Stornoway; the use of cars; the member for
Edmonton North, her pension and the pigs on the lawn; the member
for Medicine Hat and his pension; paying Jim Hart $50,000 to give
up his seat. I could go on about the $800,000. Oh, we are so
fiscally responsible, says he, yet he is so willing to spend
$800,000 when it comes to taxpayers' money.
It becomes a little galling after a while to have to listen to
those reformed Alliance people opposite who are so good in their
overzealous way of saying one thing and doing another. The
holier-than-thous rise up in unison, it would appear, to try to
condemn a government that actually is operating in the best
interests of all Canadians, is doing the right thing when it
comes to EI reforms and is adjusting accordingly.
Why? Having done what we did in terms of the EI adjustments and
having listened to the people—which is actually what good
government should do and then readjust accordingly—readjusting
is exactly what we are doing with Bill C-2 today. We are moving
expeditiously.
Why are we doing this? We are doing it because we need to make
the adjustments necessary and do so in a retroactive way that
will enable the workers and those who will benefit as a result of
the changes we are proposing to benefit in a manner consistent
with the values of this great country. That is precisely what we
are doing.
It becomes crystal clear, then, at least to me and the members
on this side of the House, that fundamental elements of the
reform package such as the hours based system and the first
dollar coverage are working well. However, there are some
elements that need adjustment and fine tuning to ensure
effectiveness and fairness in the system.
1225
Over the past number of years since this government took office
after the Tories opposite, who left this country bankrupt and in
a mess, we have known that because of good governance, fiscal
prudence and wise decisions we have brought back prosperity to
Canada. In fact, with regard to unemployment we are now
nationally at 6.8%. All I can say is that this is enormously
good news for Canada and for all Canadians. It is the lowest
level in a quarter of a century.
However, as we know, there are still pockets across this great
country where unemployment remains in double digits. Those are
the areas we need to address, because after all, we want all
Canadians to share in this new prosperity, and when those who are
not sharing in it need help, it is the Canadian way to assist
people who require that assistance. I am thinking, for example,
of forestry workers on the west coast. I am thinking about
construction workers in Ontario and fishers in the maritime
provinces. These hardworking Canadians often struggle, but they
are the backbone of their communities and, by extension, they are
the backbone of Canada. These are the people we are reaching out
to help. That is precisely what I believe Canadians expect us to
do.
We need to act swiftly and we are doing that today. We have had
hours of debate. We have had a number of days on this. It is
now time to act and move on. That is why time allocation is here
today. We want to proceed, and we want to proceed with
expedition to ensure that the few elements of our reforms that
need to be adjusted will be adjusted, such as the intensity rule
and the clawback provision. In doing that, the program needs to
respond, then, to the realities facing countless communities
across Canada that depend on seasonal industries. Many offer
limited options for working off season. In these many
communities, I am afraid that the intensity rule has proved
ineffective in reducing dependency and is viewed as simply
punitive. That is why we are doing what we are doing today to
correct that.
As members may know, a person's EI benefit rate is reduced by
one percentage point for every 20 weeks of regular or fishing
benefits he or she has collected in the previous five years.
Depending on the numbers of weeks of benefits paid in previous
years, a person's benefit rate would drop from the usual 55% to
54%, then to 53%, and down eventually, as we know, to 50%.
Our goal is simple. It is to reduce reliance on EI, but—and
this is a big but—our analysis that we have done in this
all-important area shows that in practice the rule does not
curtail frequent EI use, particularly in areas where there are
few job opportunities.
In short, there is growing concern that the intensity rule acts
only as a penalty. That is unacceptable, so we want to eliminate
that rule, and effective and actually retroactive to October 1,
2000, we propose, then, that the basic benefit rate be restored
to 55% for everyone. I think that is a good move. Certainly my
constituents in Waterloo—Wellington agree with that.
This does not mean that we will accept the high unemployment
found in these regions. EI is only part of the solution.
Certainly we should think about it and think about it hard and
long. There is a growing need for everyone, governments,
businesses, communities and individual Canadians, to work in
partnership to stimulate local economies and make the economy
work for everyone, especially people who might not otherwise get
the chance.
We need to work together, then, to create sustainable employment
opportunities for everyone. For example, I want to point out
that the Atlantic investment partnership is a $700 million
initiative aimed at helping Atlantic Canada generate jobs and
growth in the new economy. I remember with dismay when people
from the reformed Alliance made the kinds of comments they did
about Atlantic Canadians. What was it again? They called them
lazy and indolent. What an insult. I want to point out right
here and now what an insult that was, not only to Atlantic
Canadians but to all Canadians. That is how those people
opposite think. They think in those biased, stereotyped terms.
1230
Thank goodness that we on the government side do not think like
those people with a dinosaur, Jurassic Park mentality, but let us
move on to the positive. The positive is quite simply what our
government is doing to ensure that we help people no matter where
they are: east, west, north or south. We are ensuring that they
get on with the business at hand and that they have good economic
bases for themselves and their families.
I will borrow a line from Gilbert Dumont, president of the local
Charlevoix committee on EI. He said that we must find permanent
solutions to employment in our regions. He is absolutely
correct. We on the government side are trying to ensure that is
precisely what happens.
That is why our government is forging strong partnerships with
businesses and communities to create new opportunities that
reward work and people in that sense. We need to provide more
Canadians with the tools and opportunities they need to support
their families and earn a good living.
In conclusion, employment insurance is a tremendously important
social program for Canadians. It is well regarded and well
respected. From time to time we have to fine tune it to ensure
that it works effectively and efficiently, but it is a program
that Canadians cherish. We on the government side will continue
to ensure that it is in place for all Canadians wherever they
live in our great country.
[Translation]
Mr. Mario Laframboise (Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, BQ): Madam
Speaker, we are all here in this House to represent the people
in our respective ridings. I am sure my problems in this House
are far from over.
Throughout the entire election campaign triggered by the Prime
Minister, I have heard colleagues admit openly that a mistake
had been made with the Employment Insurance Act. The reform of
1996 was a mistake for all the workers of Canada, the workers of
Quebec in particular. This reform has only given the government
the opportunity to make profit at the expense of the workers.
A while ago, I heard a member across the way telling us this was
a social program. Employment insurance is not a social program,
it is insurance, one paid into every week by workers from their
paycheques, in order to be covered if they run into difficulty.
During the campaign, we saw this government exhibit a flagrant
lack of humanity. With the holidays close at hand, the leader
of the Bloc Quebecois wrote to the leaders of all the other
parties asking that the House sit December 19 in order to try to
settle the employment insurance problem.
That lack of humanity became evident when the only leader to
refuse to come to the House to discuss the employment insurance
problem was the leader of the Liberal Party.
Since we would have come to this House to settle one single
question, we would have had time to debate and resolve this
issue of employment insurance that is so important to all Quebecers and
Canadians.
The government, through the leader of the Liberal Party, refused
to take part in this important debate sought by the leader of
the Bloc Quebecois.
The position of the Bloc Quebecois on employment insurance has
remained unchanged. The debate must be held in two parts, so
that the pressing discussions on the applicability of the program may
be held and a decision on the use of the $32 billion surplus
amassed by the Government of Canada on the backs of workers may
then be reached.
What will the government do with this surplus, which is growing
by $6 billion a year?
Bill C-2 promises a return to workers of no more than 8% of the
surplus accumulated annually.
So there is a big problem. The government has again refused to
listen to the Bloc Quebecois and to split this debate and this
bill so we may debate a separate bill dealing only with the
$32 billion surplus and have another bill that would deal only
with pressing matters.
My riding of Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel faces significant
employment problems. Over the summer, the rate of unemployment
was around 8% to 8.5%. With the arrival of winter, the rate
goes up. At the moment, the rate of unemployment is around 14%.
1235
Employment is primarily in forestry, agriculture and tourism.
Obviously, with the announcement of large investments in Mirabel
for the foreign trade zone, major industry is making an
appearance in our riding. This, by the way, is the work of the
government of Quebec, through its finance minister.
No federal money was invested in the foreign trade zone. These
are all tax credits and investment credits from the Government
of Quebec. Once again the federal government has done nothing.
But let us get back to the topic at hand, the EI bill.
Members have understood that the major amendments sought by the
Bloc Quebecois are still relevant and deserve more attention
than the limited speaking time we are getting today, because the
government has decided to shut down debate. We are still left
with the infamous waiting period. Bill C-2 still contains the
two week waiting period.
People in the street call this a penalty. Workers are made to
wait two weeks. This is a penalty. Everywhere we go, people
tell us they have to wait out their two-week penalty. With a
$32 billion surplus in the fund, is it not time to reconsider
this waiting period, this penalty applied to workers when the
fund in fact belongs to them?
Is there not some way for associations of workers in Quebec and
in Canada to sit down around a table and say “Listen, now that
there is a surplus in the fund, it is time to reconsider this
waiting period, this penalty applied to workers”?
Yesterday there was a major fire in my riding that left some
forty employees all but out in the street with only employment
insurance to turn to. They will have to wait out the two-week
penalty period because their place of work went up in flames
yesterday.
It is unbelievable in a modern society, with surpluses of
$32 billion in the employment insurance fund, that workers who
are out of work because their plant burned down would be
penalized and have to wait two weeks. It is high time we
review this two week waiting period.
Why will the government not do so? For the simple reason that
this two week waiting period will allow it to increase its
surpluses in the employment insurance fund. We were protected
until today. The $32 billion remained in the government's virtual
surpluses. That money was not touched. Now, with Bill C-2, the
government will appropriate the $32 billion from the employment
insurance fund.
It will be able to use the money saved because of this two week
waiting period imposed on Quebec and Canadian workers, who work
hard to earn a living. The government will be able to take that
money and invest it in businesses. Members should look at what has been
going on in recent months with investments in the Prime
Minister's riding. The workers' money will be used to reward
friends of the Liberal Party.
This situation is unacceptable. It must
stop. Workers in Quebec and Canada must finally be allowed to
take advantage of employment insurance surpluses that belong to
them.
These workers need a true program that reflects their needs in
our modern society, as the Prime Minister says.
It is time Canadian and particularly Quebec workers have access
to that money and have a program that reflects their needs, so
that they can finally benefit, in difficult times, from a true
insurance program that they have funded themselves. No one in
the House should ever again say that this is a social program.
It is not a social program. It is insurance that belongs to
the workers in Quebec and Canada.
[English]
Mr. Bill Matthews (Parliamentary Secretary to President of
the Queen's Privy Council for Canada and Minister of
Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is my
pleasure today to say a few words on the debate amending the
Employment Insurance Act. I have listened intently to colleagues
from both sides of the House and their serious discussion and
comments pertaining to what is a very important issue for most
members of the House of Commons.
1240
I represent a very rural riding on the south coast of
Newfoundland and Labrador where people through no fault of
their own find themselves working seasonally. As someone said to
me not too long ago, it is not the workers that are seasonal. It
is the nature of the business they work in that is seasonal,
whether it is forestry, logging or the construction industry,
which is dictated by the abilities of government to fund road
construction or climatic conditions such as winter conditions
that prevent construction from taking place.
In my area of the country it has been dictated by the
mismanagement of fish stocks around our coast. People who once
worked for 12 months a year now find themselves working for much
reduced periods of time. The length of employment the people I
represent now enjoy has been decided in large measure by actions
of successive federal governments.
We brought our resources into Confederation. The Government of
Canada was supposed to be the custodian of our resources for our
people. We have found that the situation has not quite worked
out, for we find ourselves in some very difficult circumstances.
The people who I represent along the south coast of
Newfoundland and Labrador always worked for 12 months a year.
They did not know what vacations were. Our fish resources were
so abundant that our people harvested and brought the fish to
shore where our plant workers processed the fish in the
processing plants. Then there was a collapse in our groundfish
industry and as a consequence the duration of employment was
significantly reduced.
As I travel around the coast it is quite sad to see what has
happened to very proud people who knew nothing other than 12
months of work and through no fault of their own now work in a
very seasonal industry, the fishery of Newfoundland and Labrador.
The bill was introduced last fall. Debate had begun. Then we
went into a general election. Obviously Canadians gave the
government a very clear mandate to proceed in the direction we
were going in, which is the direction we are continuing today.
That is why we reintroduced the bill.
The changes in the bill will certainly improve our ability to
address the original goals of employment insurance reform that
were introduced before the election. One very important
amendment we see coming forward today is the elimination of the
intensity rule.
I have met on many occasions with representatives of fisheries
unions, logging unions and construction workers all along the
coast of Newfoundland and Labrador. One thing they can never
understand, and I never understood it as well, is how the
intensity rule ever got passed into law. We have been penalizing
people through no fault of their own because they happen to live
in regions of the country where they are unable to find full time
employment.
The intensity rule has penalized them each time they were laid
off and went to reopen an EI claim. The dreaded intensity rule
reduced their employment insurance benefits by 1%. They went from
55% down to 51%, where most of them are right now. If it had
continued they would have bottomed out at 50%. They would never
have gone back up to the 55% benefit rate if these amendments
had not been introduced in the House. I strongly support the
elimination of the intensity rule because it has penalized people
in all regions who could least afford such penalization.
What really was ironic and brought it home to me was that the
Government of Canada was the custodian of our fish resources from
coast to coast to coast. We make decisions about how much fish
we can catch and the technologies that can be used in harvesting
fish. All management decisions about fish resources are made by
the Government of Canada, and successive federal governments have
mismanaged our fish resources.
That is why our groundfish stocks collapsed and our people were
put out of work.
1245
How ironic it was to see the very people who were put out of
work because of government mismanagement and a decline in fish
stocks being penalized each time they re-opened an EI claim, and
through no fault of their own, by the government that was
supposed to be managing those resources on their behalf.
I am absolutely delighted today to see that we are going to
eliminate the intensity rule and re-establish the benefit rate to
55%. Those of us who have followed EI reform for the last six or
seven years know full well that not too long ago the benefit rate
was much higher than 55%. Even with re-establishing it at 55%,
people are still receiving significantly less in EI benefits than
they were five or six years ago and are still bringing home far
less through no fault of their own.
As well, I am very pleased that we are going to see the removal
of the benefit repayment clawback. It will be raised to $48,750.
This is very important as well to a lot of people because at the
$39,000 cap many people were clawed back when they filed their
income tax return. Raising that cap is a very good move.
The other encouraging thing is that the measure will apply to the
2000 taxation year and those people who are filing income tax
returns about now will benefit for that year.
Representing a very rural riding in Newfoundland and Labrador, I
am very pleased as well to see that there will be an adjustment
to the fishing regulations pertaining to special benefits to
ensure that self-employed fishers can take advantage of the
recently improved maternity, parental and sickness benefits.
Again, this measure will be effective retroactive to December
31, 2000.
These amendments are very positive and are amendments that I
strongly support. I lobbied and worked hard within the Atlantic
Liberal caucus and the national caucus to bring about those
changes because I believed they were needed. It has been a key
undertaking of mine to bring about changes. Even though the
government, back in 1996, said it would monitor, assess and
evaluate the employment insurance reforms that were brought in,
and we had done that, I felt that three or four of those measures
were very necessary to make the system fair. Those measures
included taking away the penalties that were being imposed on
people who were involved in seasonal work through no fault of
their own. I am delighted that we are making those amendments.
Having said that, and realizing that my time is about up, I just
want to say that even with those changes and amendments, there
are other areas of the Employment Insurance Act that, in my view,
still need to reviewed, such as changes to the divisor factor and
some other things. We are making some very important changes
with those amendments, but other important amendments and changes
are needed.
Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I am happy to take part in the debate today. The member
who just spoke talked about the need for seasonal workers to be
covered. I note that in Bill C-2 there has been a longstanding
problem where farmers, for example, who work off the farm have
always had to pay into the employment insurance fund but have
never been able to qualify. That is seasonal work too. It should
be one way or the other. If they cannot qualify, they should not
have to pay into it. That is a needed reform that has bugged me
and a lot of people in agriculture for a long time.
I want to ask why it is so important today to rush the bill
through the House by using time allocation. This is a leftover
from the last parliament. In fact, it probably was created as a
result of the Liberals losing a number of seats in the Atlantic
provinces in 1997.
I think the member who just spoke would agree with that. He is
one who moved over to the Liberal Party as a result
of those changes, so it was politically motivated I suspect.
1250
It seems to me that if the bill was so important when it was
introduced last year, why did the government not see it through
at that time? The question of how important it was did not seemed to
deter the Prime Minister when he called an early election after
only three and a half years. It was left to die on the order paper
along with a number of other bills that the government had as its
priorities.
Why was parliament not continued on at that time and allowed to
have the
kind of debate we needed to properly debate this bill? No, we had
to have time allocation again today. I have been in the House
since 1993 and I think it is the 69th time that the Liberal
government has used time allocation on these types of bills.
The part that bothers me more than anything is this: what is so heavy
on the government's agenda that it would force us to move this
quickly on Bill C-2? There is a total of eight bills that have
been introduced so far, hardly a heavy legislative agenda from my
point of view. It is the first bill that was introduced by the
Liberals this session and they are using time allocation to ram
it through parliament. What kind of signal are they sending to
the Canadian public?
Why did they call an election so early? Why did they not have
it as a priority to continue on and resolve this last fall,
instead of having to go to an election which caused the House to
be dissolved? In fact, they were not in that much of a hurry to
come back in January. If it was that important why did they not
call the House back in January to get right at it? No, they did
not do that.
Now we have this ludicrous situation where the Liberals have now
exceeded Brian Mulroney's terrible record in terms of time
allocation on bills. I noticed that they managed to be very
critical of that when they were on the other side of the House,
They said it was an affront to democracy. The Liberals have
passed Mr. Mulroney's record in roughly the same amount of time.
They are going to continue to use that as a club in the House of
Commons.
This is not the first time it has affected me, either. On
October 20, 1999, I spoke about time allocation and how it
affected my ability and other members' ability to speak on the
one of the bills in the industry category, Bill C-6, the privacy
bill. I had just been appointed the industry critic for our
party. I have the Hansard here. It was another bill the
Liberals seem to have been in trouble with. They had not
consulted the provinces to any great length. The Senate had to
bail them out in terms of a lot of amendments that came through
to pick up the bill and make it better. I give the Senate
credit for doing that.
Yesterday Senator Grafstein was very critical of the House of
Commons for running bills through this place without proper
debate and proper consideration, in a hurried manner, and
therefore leaving the Senate to clean them up. I suggest that
this is one of those kinds of bills. Why the hurry? Why can
we not have the proper debate in the House? It does not make any
sense. This is the place to debate. I know a lot of our members
would like to speak on it and are not being allowed to.
This is an old tactic. I was restricted in October 1999. I
said at the time that it was the 65th time they had used time
allocation. We are now up to 69. The clock is ticking. I am
not sure why the Liberals have to do this, but they seem like
they want to poke the finger in the eye of those people who want
proper debate in the House of Commons. It does not make any
sense.
We have the Canada employment insurance program. The government
seems to think that it can put in a program that can substitute
for a job. That is wrong. Thirty years ago it was an insurance
program and the government has moved it away from being that. We
would like to make changes to that and have the employers and the
employees administer this program. However, that is not the
case. In fact, I read in my notes that in Bill C-2 the Liberals
even want to change some of the aspect of consultation and advice
provided by the Employment Insurance Commission. Its advisory capacity
is
being taken away.
It seems like the Liberals want to control this.
1255
The government had a $35 billion surplus in the EI fund. The
people who watch this said that we probably need $10 billion to
$15 billion to be prudent. The fund is roughly $20 billion over
those amounts. What is the government doing with the fund? It
goes into general revenue and gives the Liberals a chance to play
with the hard-earned money which has been taken off the
paycheques of employees. It also affects employers as well.
Canadians would be far better served if that amount were lowered
to a prudent calculation, roughly $10 billion to $15 billion,
stop the payroll taxes on hardworking Canadians. The finance
minister said that in 1994. When he needed more money to play
with, suddenly it was not a payroll tax anymore. That is really
what it is.
Some people would argue that the government has balanced its
books on the backs of employees and employers who contribute to
the fund. There is some justification for that and it needs to
be reviewed.
There is no substitute in Canada for real employment. The
employment insurance program that the government has been
tinkering with will not do it. It has to get the fundamentals
right and get taxes down, including payroll taxes, personal taxes
and corporate taxes. We see the United States moving in that
direction. Canada has not caught up from the last round in terms
of corporate and personal income tax. We are at a real
disadvantage. Our employers and companies are at a real
disadvantage if we compare them to those in the United States.
Twenty years ago the productivity of Canada and the United
States was almost exactly the same. What has happened in twenty
years? The United States is still number one in terms of
productivity. Where is Canada today? Canada is ranked 13th in
the industrial world.
It is no coincidence that these things have happened. They have
happened because of thirty years of mismanagement by the
government across the way, a big interventionist government and
growing government programs, programs which were financed with
deficit financing. Increasing deficits require payments to pay
off the interest on the huge national debt.
Canada is faced with a 30 year decline in our dollar. We have a
30 year decline in direct foreign investment in Canada. Even
Canadians are looking outside our country for a place to invest
because they cannot get the kind of return on investments they
need. The EI fund is one of the funds responsible for this.
Up until 30 years ago, when Canada made those changes, Canadian
and American unemployment rates could be charted. They were
basically the same year in and year out, in good times or bad.
Canada had a divergence in that 30 year period and we are roughly
3% to 4% higher than the United States all the time.
There need to be reforms. There needs to be proper debate in
the House. I am very concerned that the government is moving so
early in this new parliament to cut off debate on such very
important issues. It should be chastized for doing that and
should not follow that course of action in the future. Members
across the way should be ashamed to support that kind of
government intervention.
[Translation]
Mr. Ghislain Fournier (Manicouagan, BQ): Mr. Speaker, first of
all, I would like to thank my fellow citizens of Manicouagan for
showing their confidence in the Bloc Quebecois for the third
time in a row.
Personally, this is my second mandate, and they almost tripled
my majority. What a vote of confidence, and I thank them for
that. The local press described my win as a landslide victory,
since I obtained 54% of the votes, compared to the 28.5%—or to be
generous 29%—of my closest opponent, a Liberal.
Today I am, of course, pleased to rise to speak on Bill C-2, an
act to amend the Employment Insurance Act and the Employment
Insurance (Fishing) Regulations.
This is a debate that goes back to the January 1997 reform of
the employment insurance program.
1300
That reform was supposed to have been in response to the expectations
of the public and the realities of the labour market.
Predictably, it has had the opposite effect.
Bill C-2 comes nowhere near responding to the expectations of the
unemployed and of the workers. With it, the government is only
providing a very incomplete correction to the problems caused by
its past reforms. It is not addressing the real problems, and
the amendments proposed are highly inadequate.
First of all, the matter of eligibility has not yet been
settled.
What the government is doing with its employment insurance bill
is simply legalizing the diversion of $30 billion from the
employment insurance fund. This money clearly belongs to the
workers, the unemployed and the employers who have contributed
to employment insurance.
Legalizing this diversion of $30 billion is as if the government
took $100 from a worker's pocket and then gave him only $8 back.
Taking the surplus in the employment insurance fund, which came
from the pockets of workers, without their permission fits the
dictionary definition of theft. This morning I checked the
Petit Robert for the French definition of voler, and it
translates stealing as taking something that does not belong
to us. This is disgraceful.
Hon. Denis Coderre: Oh, oh, bad language.
The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I would ask the hon. member
to be a little more judicious in the choice of his words. I do
not want to contradict the definition given by one dictionary or
another, but there are certain expressions that are never
appropriate to the fine traditions of this parliament, including
the word “theft”.
Mr. Ghislain Fournier: Mr. Speaker, once again, I did not say
it. It was in the dictionary, but I will of course respect your
recommendation.
I was saying that it is shameful to see the government taking
money from society's most disadvantaged, men and women who have
lost their jobs, who are vulnerable and who sometimes have no
means to defend themselves. It is all the more shameful to see
the government boasting in the throne speech that it is
ensuring all children are protected from poverty.
Worse yet, in another paragraph, there is the following:
There was a time when losing a job also meant immediate loss of
income for workers and their families. And so Canadians created
employment insurance.
This government is ignoring the demands by social groups
opposing the legalization of this misappropriation of $38
billion dollars from employment insurance, which is now $30
billion.
Clearly, employment insurance has become a payroll tax. The
government is refusing to give the unemployed and workers what
is coming to them and continuing to accumulate surpluses on
their backs. It has no concern for their welfare, and they are
left behind by this employment insurance reform.
The measures in
this bill will not solve the problems caused by the system,
including those of seasonal workers in the regions, especially
young people, women and all workers in general.
The Bloc Quebecois opposes Bill C-2 in its present form.
The Bloc Quebecois is proposing a favourable and constructive
approach, because it feels that it is essential to respond as
quickly as possible to the real needs of unemployed workers.
This is why it is calling for two bills.
The first bill would deal with urgent needs.
This is what the Bloc Quebecois would propose: abolition of the
intensity rule, of course; abolition of the discriminatory
practice of taxing back the benefits of frequent claimants; an
increase in insurable earnings from 55% to 60%, so that
unemployed workers could have a decent income; abolition of the
clause that discriminates against new entrants in the workforce,
especially young people and women; and, finally, abolition of
the waiting period.
1305
The second bill would concentrate on long term amendments to be
discussed in committee, such as the creation of an independent
EI fund.
Before the election was called in the fall, the government
introduced the same bill, giving the Liberals full control over
the EI fund. At the end of 1999, the surplus in the EI fund
stood at approximately $30 billion. Since 1994-95, the Liberals
have helped themselves to more than $38 billion in this fund.
Hence the importance of creating an independent fund.
This bill does not meet the essential demands of the Bloc
Quebecois. The government does not go far enough to improve the
system and put a stop to the discriminatory criteria. The
government broke its election promises when Bill C-44 was
introduced before the election campaign. People said that
bill did not go far enough.
During the election campaign, the Prime Minister himself
admitted that his government had made mistakes. He said “It is
true that we made major mistakes in that bill”. The Secretary of
State for Amateur Sport personally pledged to make changes to
the Employment Insurance Act.
For example, on November 9, 2000, the daily Le Soleil reported
that the secretary of state had said that “Following the
election of a majority Liberal government we will restore the
process and ensure that the changes are appropriate and that
they adequately reflect the realities and needs of the people of
the Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean region and of all Quebecers and
Canadians. I am committed to making changes to the act and we
will make changes”.
The Secretary of State for Amateur Sport came to my riding
because workers from the FTQ, the steelworkers union, and the CSN
had planned a protest.
He came to ask them not to protest, because he would personally
make sure that changes would be made. This is a disgrace.
Where is the Secretary of State for Amateur Sport and what is he
doing? Absolutely nothing at this point. We do not hear him and
we did not hear him during the debate on this bill. Now that the
election has been held, we find ourselves with the same bill as
before and the issue is still not settled. This attitude is
unacceptable. We can no longer hope that politicians will be
taken seriously when they display the attitude I just described.
This is no longer what we call democracy. It is misleading the
public. People expect more than mere election promises. They
expect significant and concrete corrective measures.
Under the current plan, higher income earners, for example those
engaged in seasonal work, particularly in the construction
sector, have to pay money back when they file their income tax
returns, if they have earned more under the
employment insurance reform.
Over the past five or six years, employment insurance has been
the single most important factor influencing poverty in Quebec
and in Canada. As I said earlier, the government claims to want
to protect poor children. If there are children living in
poverty, it is because there are parents living in poverty. The
government has not done anything to reduce poverty in this
country. Therefore, the Bloc Quebecois will oppose Bill C-2.
1310
[English]
Mr. David Chatters (Athabasca, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to join in the debate today on Bill C-2.
Before I get into the bill, I would like to take the opportunity,
this being my first time to speak in the new parliament, to thank
my constituents of Athabasca for returning me to the House of
Commons for the third time.
It certainly was a very emotional, hurtful and difficult
election campaign. Some unwarranted accusations flew around both
in the national campaign and in the local campaign in my riding.
I was very pleased that my constituents saw through that and
chose to return me in spite of the rhetoric. I am very humbled
to come back and serve them in the House once more.
The debate this morning and the action of the government to
invoke closure or time allocation on the bill certainly
disappointing. I came here some seven and a half years ago,
perhaps overly idealistic about what parliament was all about,
how it worked and how I could serve my country and be part of the
institution that makes laws and governs and guides the country.
Certainly after seven years I think most of us, not only on this
side of the House but a good number on the other side, share the
opinion expressed by my former colleague, Lee Morrison, who
served in the House for seven years. In a very blunt article
yesterday or the day before in the National Post, he
expressed total disillusionment and extreme disappointment with
the relevancy of the House Commons and how it works.
I do not discount any of the accusations or comments he made,
and I think many of my colleagues would agree with them. Perhaps
those of us who are here live in the eternal hope that something
might change somewhere along the line and we might actually have
some reform in this place to make it relevant and give us some
real input and influence in the way things happen. I think that
would be a huge step forward. However, after the government's
actions this morning I would not hold my breath. In spite of
what seems to be a desire on all sides for change, it does not
seem likely to happen. It could, however, happen easily.
There were accusations from a member of the other place that the
quality of legislation being passed in this place was failing or
dropping. I am sure the comments made by the member of the other
place were self-serving and meant to justify the Senate's very
existence, to some degree. On the other hand, there is probably
some truth in what he said because over the last seven years this
government has continually moved to consolidate power in the
hands of the very few at the centre.
The quality of legislation would be better if there were any hope
that when a bill entered this place and went through the process,
it would emerge amended and improved. If so, some of the flaws
that could show up down the road, pointed out no doubt by the
courts, could be corrected before the bill was finished.
However, the government seems to have the attitude that once it
introduces a bill it will lose face if an opposition or committee
member amends a fundamental part of it. The government feels
that would be a loss of face, and it just cannot allow that to
happen. The government therefore uses its majority in the House
and on committees at every stage, and the bill proceeds through
as a matter of principle and of saving face rather than out of a
real concern to produce the best possible bill at the end of the
process.
1315
There is no reason why the very drafting of the bill or the
amendment could not be given to the all party parliamentary
committees for input from all parties involved from the very
beginning. Perhaps we could lessen the degree of ownership by
the government in the bill. Everybody could have somewhat of a
stake in the content of the bill, perhaps would be better able to
support it, and feel that they are actually having some input and
making some changes to the bill.
I am disappointed. It seems it just goes on and nothing ever
changes. In spite of an express desire for change across the
country, it does not change and I do not expect it ever will
change to any great degree.
Bill C-2 is an effort to amend the Employment Insurance Act. The
intention of the bill is truly misguided. We went down this road
many years ago. I think we were making some progress in reform of
employment insurance, which used to be unemployment insurance.
Incentives were provided for people to find employment rather
than incentives to remain unemployed. The bill seems to be
returning to those times, especially in economically depressed
regions of the country, when the EI program, or the UI program as
it used to be known, was an incentive not to work rather than an
incentive to work.
I heard some discussion earlier in the House about whether or
not EI had become a social program rather than an insurance
program. Clearly this is a move back toward becoming a social
program and away from becoming an insurance program. I think
that is supported simply by the fact that all kinds of sections
or parts of the EI program are inarguably social programs. I am
thinking of maternity and parental leave, which has recently
become a much larger part of the employment insurance program. It
is clearly a social program.
We moved away from that some years back in that employment
insurance became harder and harder to obtain. One had to fulfil
certain obligations to remain and to receive employment insurance
wherever one lived. This is a move back toward seasonal
employment coverage where people in economically depressed areas
with seasonal employment went on the program. They seemed to be
able to stay on the program for an extended period of time
without actually having to show that they were actively job
searching, without having to produce a number of job searches per
week. In my view that is a social program because it tides
workers over from a season of employment to an unemployment
season and back to employment. That to me is not an insurance
program.
Another kind of perverse incentive that seems to be inherent is
that the ease of getting into the program and receiving
employment insurance seems to go up the higher unemployment is in
the area. The more depressed the area is, the easier it is to
get employment insurance. That does not seem to be very
productive.
Communities and industries in my part of Canada are crying out
in huge numbers for workers and simply cannot get them. I get a
dozen requests a week from companies applying to the foreign
workers union to bring workers into Canada because they cannot
find local people to work at the jobs. Yet we have this program
that pays seasonal workers in parts of Canada to remain
unemployed and remain where they are rather than provide some
incentive to move to a part of Canada like my part of Canada
where there is a need for those workers and where they could be
gainfully employed.
1320
There are a lot of other elements of the program that need
amending. We need to change and go back to what was
started some five or six years ago by this government. I hope
the government will listen to some suggestions from the
opposition and other members in committee so we might make this a
better bill.
Ms. Wendy Lill (Dartmouth, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to address Bill C-2 today and to give the bill my
qualified support.
That is not to say that I support the government's draconian
tactics of shutting down the debate using closure. Use of
closure once again shows that the government has a disregard for
the central role of debate in the House and in committees.
While I feel compelled to support the baby steps that the bill
takes to reverse the massive damage that the same government did
to our unemployment insurance system, I do so reluctantly. I do
so because I know it is better for the people in Dartmouth to
have a little improvement than none at all.
At the same time, I also feel compelled to point out the basic
flaws in the current system which the bill fails to even
contemplate.
Bill C-2 fails to deal with the fundamental contradictions of
our national employment strategy. We have Canada employment
centres in almost every community in Canada actively promoting
self-employment as a way to deal with an increasingly
transitional labour force.
At the same time these same Canada employment centres administer
an insurance program for unemployed Canadians that is
specifically designed to deny all self-employed workers the same
benefits their neighbours enjoy if they find themselves
unemployed. This is madness. Why should someone become more
economically vulnerable because they followed the government's
advice to move into self-employment? Why should they put their
families at risk because the government has decided that the best
way to manage our labour market is to cut people off EI benefits?
Ottawa has been saving billions of dollars through denying
people the right to adequate employment protection in the event
of unemployment. The calculation of the amount of money lost to
my community alone has been at least $20 million per year simply
because of the restrictions this government has put in place. It
has limited the amount of payouts claimants can receive and has
reduced the number of persons eligible for benefits.
I reluctantly support the bill because some of these
restrictions are being removed and my community needs the money,
but the bill does nothing to address the fundamental problems
with our employment insurance system.
It does nothing, for example, to address the fact that artists
are currently unable to qualify for employment insurance. Our
government considers artists self-employed, a fact that many
would dearly love to change, and they are therefore denied maternity
benefits and sickness benefits under EI. They are also denied
the ability to participate in the Canada pension plan.
Does the government honestly believe that artists or others who
are self-employed never have children, never get sick or never develop
a disability? It is a tribute to our artists that they have been
willing to make such a sacrifice for their art, but surely it is
not a necessary part of our public policy or, if it is, I want
the government to stand in this place and say so.
We also have no serious industrial plan to allow for the smooth
transition for workers who lose their jobs in a certain
occupation to go into another related occupation. Instead, they
are told to become entrepreneurs, ineligible for EI, and it is
often an unsuitable match for both.
I think of the situation of the more than 100 workers who are
being laid off at the Dartmouth marine slips. These workers have
worked for years repairing ships. They have exhausted their
reduced EI benefits and are now facing welfare. They want to
work in the supply bases for the Sable gas fields. While they
are receiving co-operation from the local HRDC office, it is
clear that there is nothing in our employment insurance system
which connects the dots that they see so clearly.
One dot is an industry closing. Another dot is a related
industry opening in the same area. Why can we not just move
these workers to the new industry and give their families some
security?
However, this is not something our system allows for.
Instead we have a government basking in over $30 billion of
employment insurance surplus while still leaving thousands of
workers, even after Bill C-2, with no benefits.
1325
Even worse is the insistence by large corporations and the
official opposition that the action they would like to see is not
giving unemployed people adequate benefits for which they have
already paid or not extending the program to others who need it.
Instead they call for slashing the costs to companies for EI
premiums while maintaining our currently restrictive system. More
money for businesses and less for the unemployed is the business
agenda of this social program.
I hope the government will start to use our employment insurance
system to address the problems of working families. It is time
that the government begins to address the obstacles facing the
unemployed, artists, Canadians with disabilities, and thousands
of Canadians who find themselves between jobs through no fault of
their own and need the assistance from a fair and equitable
employment insurance program.
[Translation]
Mr. Marcel Gagnon (Champlain, BQ): Mr. Speaker, during the
recent election campaign, there was so much talk of amending the
Employment Insurance Act that I thought that a bill would be
introduced as early as possible in this parliament and that
there would also be an early opportunity for the House to debate
it.
There is no denying that the government members spoke about it
everywhere. The Liberals tried to win votes with this bill and
I think that they succeeded in doing so with their promise to
amend the legislation to make it fairer and more acceptable to
workers.
The Prime Minister himself admitted that some mistakes had been
made in the Employment Insurance Act and he promised to do
something about them. My colleagues mentioned that other
ministers had visited the various regions in Quebec and said the
same thing.
Does this mean that there really are two different tunes: the
one during the election campaign cleverly designed to bring in
votes, and the other when the rubber hits the road? In this
parliament, where decisions are made that affect the lives of
all Canadians and Quebecers, the Liberals have decided that what
they said during the election campaign no longer holds.
I think that many voters in my riding did not believe the
promises they were hearing. But they hoped. I am thinking of
the La Tuque area in Haute-Mauricie. It is a tourist region. It
depends on forestry. Employment there is naturally fairly
seasonal.
These people deserve help. That is not the proper word, because
they are helping themselves. My colleague for
Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel has just told us that employment
insurance is not a social measure, but insurance we pay as
workers, provided we are in insurable jobs.
The purpose of paying into insurance is to have protection when
needed. We are always at our most vulnerable when we need the
protection of insurance. It is always when we are in
difficulty.
In my riding, there are workers whose plant has closed down for
a time, but they are hoping to get their jobs back. A paper
plant has closed temporarily. When are they going to get their
jobs back? There is talk of a two week penalty period, of
punishing people who are absolutely not at fault. This
insurance is a worker's right. It is not the property of the
government.
1330
I do not want to get called to order like one of my colleagues
for using words that are apparently not to be used in the House.
You have already pointed that out to one of my colleagues. I
will not say that it is robbery, although I will think so.
However, I shall not say so.
The government has a fund containing some $32 billion to $38 billion
paid into it by workers and employers. I have been a worker and
an employer. When, as an employer, I hire someone, the benefits
I give in terms of employment insurance, the part the employer
pays, is deducted from his pay. It comes out of his hourly
wage. So, in fact, employment insurance is paid for 100% by the
workers.
When the government decides to take that, to go off with it, to
put it in a common fund, in the pot, and at the same time
decides to cut the taxes of society's richest, I see it as
taking money from the person who needs it, who paid insurance,
and giving it to the other, who does not need it or needs it
less. In my opinion, if that is not theft, it looks like it.
I promised the workers in my riding during the election and more
recently to talk about it in parliament. It cannot be done this
way. Even more shameful, in my opinion, is limiting the time to
debate it, but I understand them. I understand their wanting
not to talk too long about such an unfair law, which makes off
with money people have legally paid, to use it for other things.
I understand their wanting to get this law through quickly.
An hon. member: It is scandalous.
Mr. Marcel Gagnon: I agree that it is scandalous. They were
saying earlier “Wait, we can change this law in committee”. I
am not dreaming in technicolour; I know what was promised and
what was put before the House, but we will see whether, in
committee, we can change it.
I personally think it will make no sense if this law is not
changed to give the workers their due, especially since this
parliament, the parliament of Canadians and Quebecers, is the
parliament of what the Prime Minister boasts about as one of the
fairest countries, particularly in social terms, for society's
poorest.
I think it vital we return to order and find a way to give the
money back to those who paid it, for the reasons they paid it.
It is not up to the government to say “You have paid this money
for insurance, but we think you do not need the insurance.
So we will take it to lower taxes for the rich”.
If you had the misfortune of seeing your house burn down, you
would contact your insurer and say “Unfortunately, my house
burned down”. Then you would learn from your insurer that you
are not covered for the first fire, but that you will be paid if
your house burns down a second time. This is more or less what
the government is saying to workers. A worker who, following a
sudden layoff, expects to collect employment insurance benefits
to make it through this difficult period is told “No, you are
not covered right now; you did not work enough hours”.
Now, instead of having to work 300 hours to collect employment
insurance benefits, which were the original terms under the
insurance plan, a person must have worked 910 hours. Again, this
act is unfair. It needs improving.
The Bloc Quebecois is prepared to co-operate if the government is
willing to split this bill in two.
1335
We agree with certain parts of the bill, but other parts
absolutely must be changed. I say to workers from my region and
from Quebec that we will continue to work hard to improve this
act, so that they can get what they are entitled to.
[English]
Mr. Geoff Regan (Halifax West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am
very pleased today to speak to the employment insurance bill.
When I was previously here as a member of parliament in my first
term, I had the experience of being involved in the review of the
employment insurance bill. I can say there was a great deal of
give and take within the Liberal caucus over that bill. It was
the initial incarnation of the proposals which were quite
different from what eventually became the law after a great deal
of discussion, negotiation, and pushing and pulling.
One of the reasons the government had the support it did for the
bill was that it promised that there would be an ongoing
monitoring process. In the monitoring process it would examine
the impact of the bill throughout the country, particularly in
those areas most affected by it which relied the most on seasonal
industries, as in the case of Atlantic Canada.
It was important that promise was made when the bill was passed
and that the government followed up on it and had a process of
monitoring the results and the impacts of the changes made in the
employment insurance bill.
Having done that, the government assessed the situation,
assessed the impact of those changes, and said that some of it
had worked well: in some cases people had been able to find more
work; others had changed their working style or the way they work
and had found extra weeks in the year; and others had problems.
It wanted to see how it could improve the system to better
assist people who need the assistance while at the same time
encourage all Canadians to maximize the work they could get,
which I think all Canadians want to do.
It is important that the system be fair to Canadians and
recognize the situations that Canadians are in when it comes to
their work lives. There are seasonal workers across Canada,
whether they be fishery workers in Atlantic Canada, construction
workers in central Canada, forestry workers in the west, or
people in the oil and gas industry, who are unable to find
year-round work year. They rely on the employment insurance
system to enable them to feed and clothe their families during
difficult periods when they would prefer to be working but are
unable to find work to do so. This is an important part of our
social safety net, one that I think Canadians strongly believe in
and strongly support.
I want to focus today on one aspect of the changes. Several
changes are being made in the bill, but I will focus on the
intensity rule, one of the major changes. The intensity rule was
designed to encourage people to find the most work they could and
try not to use the employment insurance system year after year.
The idea was that for every 20 weeks of benefits claimed in the
last five years they would drop 1%, from 55% of their average
income to 54% to 53%. Each year it would go down 1%.
The impact has not been what was expected or intended. It seems
to have been punitive and has not achieved the effect desired.
Other aspects of the system and of the former bill have had
positive impacts that encouraged people to find year-round work
and other kinds of work. However, this aspect of the bill has
not had that kind of impact. It has not had the benefit
anticipated or planned.
It is encouraging to see the government recognize that and
decide to change the bill, to decide to amend and eliminate the
intensity rule so that seasonal workers will not feel they are
being penalized because they are stuck in seasonal jobs.
1340
Imagine a 50 year old person who has worked in the forestry,
fishery or oil and gas industry for 25 or 30 years. The person
has been trained for that work and cannot see any other
alternative to that. He or she cannot simply become a computer
programmer tomorrow or next week. That is not an option. The
person has become part of a seasonal industry.
It is important to recognize the way our economy works. We
cannot apply a cookie cutter approach to every industry because
every industry is different. Seasonal industries are important
to Canada. The fishery provides hundreds of millions of dollars
of revenue to Canada and to the GDP of our economy. It is a very
important industry on both coasts and on our inland waterways.
It is important that the bill be amended. I am pleased to see
the government moving toward the elimination of the intensity
rule. It will make the employment insurance system fairer for
all Canadians. Having been a part of the review group on the
original bill, it is very satisfying to see the government,
having gone through this process and having looked at the impact
of the bill, deciding to make these changes now.
I am also pleased to see that the government has made a change
to the clawback. The clawback was originally introduced so that
people who were making high incomes every year could not collect
EI on top of that income every year. We have heard examples of
people making $70,000 a year and on top of that income receiving
employment insurance. Canadians did not like that and that was
one of the reasons it made sense to make changes to the bill.
Having the clawback start at only $39,000 meant that the people
who were not just high income but also of moderate income were
being hit by the clawback provision. The decision to increase
the clawback level, as the bill would do, to $49,000 or
thereabouts, will mean that people at moderate and middle income
levels will not be hit with the clawback. Those are two very
important and positive changes, and they come at a time when
other changes have also happened in employment insurance.
Members are well aware of the changes that provide for parental
leave benefits. Most Canadians are strongly supportive of and
recognize this change as important support of families in Canada.
The bill has many benefits for Canadians. Whether one is in
Atlantic Canada, which is where my family lives, British Columbia
or anywhere across the country, there are benefits for everyone
in the employment insurance system. However, it is important to
make these amendments in order to improve the system and make it
fair for all Canadians.
I encourage members to join me in supporting the bill.
Mr. Rob Anders (Calgary West, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I would first like to take the opportunity to thank my
constituents of Calgary West for re-electing me to the House of
Commons. It is a great privilege to represent them yet again,
and I thank them for this great honour.
I would like to describe for the folks back home what is going
on today. The Liberals are making changes to employment
insurance. I will talk about some of the things that should be
done but are not being done and how the bill will affect people
in Alberta and across the country.
I look around the House today and I see our pages. They serve
us very well here in the House of Commons and do a great job for
us. I will tell them a little bit about some of the injustices
that are being visited upon them because they as well suffer the
consequences with regard to employment insurance.
At the present time the government hires them as students.
Because they are not full time, because they are part time, the
government will collect employment insurance from them. All of
you have EI deducted from your cheques.
1345
The Deputy Speaker: I remind the hon. member to
make his interventions through the Chair.
Mr. Rob Anders: Of course, Mr. Speaker, you are the one
who issues their paycheques. You are forcing these students to
pay into employment insurance, yet because they are part time
they will never be able to collect on the money they have paid
in.
If for some reason they were to leave this job or you were to
let them go, they would never be able to collect on the money you
are taking from them. It is not insurance; it is a tax. For
these students who are helping us in the Chamber today, you are
levying a tax on them. There is no ability for them to collect
it.
Parliamentary pages are like hundreds of thousands of other
students across the country who pay into employment insurance
under the guise that it is insurance, and yet if they lost their
jobs or wanted to collect back on it they never could.
This does not just apply to students. It applies to more than
just part time students. The government is hoodwinking people
like hairdressers, the self-employed, and all sorts of people who
are paying into EI but who have no ability to prospect of drawing on
it because of the way it is structured.
I will call it what it deserves to be called. It is not an
Employment Insurance Act. It is an employment tax. That is
exactly what you are doing to these students, Mr. Speaker, and it
is exactly what your government does to millions of people across
the country when it levies this tax.
Real things to create jobs, real initiatives other than tax
cuts, are something my party and I support. To give an example
of how nasty this tax is, how pernicious this tax is that you put
upon these pages and others in the country, the government right
now has approximately $35 billion in the EI fund. It is a huge
surplus.
The fund's chief actuarial officer says a $15 billion surplus is
all that is required. Therefore more than $20 billion is being
hoarded by your government, Mr. Speaker, from people like these
pages right here—
The Deputy Speaker: I am having some difficulty.
Certainly I am quite prepared to accept when the member refers to
the Chair as being an officer of the House that has
responsibilities within the Board of Internal Economy, the House
of Commons being the employer of all employees on the Hill
including the pages.
However, it is neither my government nor is it my opposition. I
would hope the hon. member can make that distinction. The Chair
is the Chair of the House of Commons, not of any party, not of
any member, but of all parties and of all members.
Mr. Derek Lee: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I
too heard the references of the member opposite and I know you
have addressed them. However, I hope my colleagues in the House
can agree that it is inappropriate for a member in making remarks
to directly or indirectly impugn the impartiality of the Chair in
the way the member opposite appears to have done.
I hope all members in the House on both sides will accept that.
If the member opposite has been misinterpreted by me or others in
the way he has made the remarks, I hope—
The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The Chair at this
point is in no way offended, but I did want to make some
clarifications, not on the opinions, the arguments or the debate,
but simply on the position of the Speaker.
With the greatest of respect to the parliamentary secretary, I
think we are engaging in debate and the debate at this time
belongs to the member for Calgary West.
1350
Mr. Rob Anders: Mr. Speaker, I am heartened that somebody
who previously served as the government whip is able to distance
himself from the Liberal government across the way. I will
continue to talk about what the Liberal government has done
previously and continues to do.
The Liberal government is hoarding $35 billion in the EI fund.
It is unconscionable when not nearly that amount of money is
necessary.
I would like to tell the people of Alberta, who I know will undergo
a provincial election very soon, exactly what is happening in
terms of the EI fund. I also tell all pages in the House of
Commons to pay attention because these numbers hold true for
province of Ontario. The numbers hold true for those working in
Ontario as well as those in Alberta.
Alberta pays $1.8 billion into the EI fund. Alberta takes out
$500 million. That leaves in the fund a net $1.3 billion
overpayment every year. There are 1.6 million working Albertans.
If one does the math it works out to roughly $800 per person.
Those numbers carry forward for House of Commons pages as well.
They do not earn as much as the average worker because they are
part time. If, however, they earned an average wage in the low
thirty thousands per year, they would be overpaying to the tune
of $800 per year in employment insurance, in terms of what they
put in and what they take out in aggregate collectively.
That is inherently unfair when the government is taxing nearly
$1,000. Canadians are overpaying in terms of the Canada pension
plan. The young people around this room know. I know and the
government knows. You know, Mr. Speaker, that in 2017 the Canada
pension plan will go bust when the actuarial demographic weight
cracks down on it. Yet they are overpaying into the plan.
They and others like them are overpaying into both of these
plans, EI and CPP, to the tune of $1,000 or better per year,
money they could have in their wallet and spend to their own
discretion rather than give to the government. It is wrong.
What I would propose is somewhat controversial so I hope members
across the way will listen. Five per cent of someone's wage,
whether a janitor or the president of a given corporation or
public entity, could be taken and put into a mandatory retirement
savings plan, a super RRSP. In that way it would not be
collectively wasted. It is not a Ponzi scheme. It is not a
pyramid scheme. It is not something that goes into general
revenue where people wonder if it will ever come out again.
It would go into individuals' accounts. They would know how
much money they put in per year. They would know the rate of
return on their investment. They could put it into GICs. They
could put it into treasury bills. They could put it into bonds
or into any number of instruments. They would know how much they
had in aggregate.
If I asked any one of the bright people in the Chamber today,
and they should be fairly bright people because they are supposed
to be running the country, how much they had contributed over
their lifetimes into the Canada pension plan, I bet not a single
one of them, not even yourself, Mr. Speaker, would know even to
the nearest hundred or the nearest thousand dollars exactly how
much they had put into the CPP.
The reason they do not know and you do not know, Mr. Speaker,
even though they are supposed to govern this land, is that EI is
a collectively held fund. Because they do not have individual
accounts they do not know. It is the tragedy of the Commons.
Ironic is that statement, tragedy of the Commons.
1355
Another 5% would go to employment insurance. My father has
recently retired. I hope he is having a good time and enjoying
his retirement years. Maybe he is out doing something a little
more enjoyable than watching me on TV. I do not know. If
somebody like my father who never collected a day of employment
insurance in his life could have the 5% he had set aside in EI
rolled over to his pension when he turned 65, then 10% of his
lifetime earnings would have been saved and invested for when he
retired. That would be fair. It would be just. It would make
sure that people were not abusing the worst aspects of the
employment insurance system and that they would know it was
theirs and was there for them.
I see the security guards around here. I remember that last
session the government took money out of their pension fund, the
public service pension fund. It scooped billions of dollars out
of their pensionable earnings. That was wrong. If they were
able to put 5% or 10% aside, they would know how much they were
putting in and what they were getting as a return on their
investment, rather than having the government take it from them.
That would be far more just.
I hope we see that someday, rather than the present system that
has all sorts of abuses wrapped up in it. People who work as
part time students pay into the employment tax but have no
ability to collect it. People who are self-employed and run
their own businesses are double taxed, once as an employer and
once as an employee.
Liberal members across the way laugh. They are making fun of
the students in this room. They are making fun of the security
guards who work above them. They are making fun of the people
who are self-employed and double pay this tax. They laugh
despite the fact that they have $20 billion sitting in their
chest that they should not have. It is owed to Canadian
taxpayers, not to the Liberals who laugh across the way.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY
Mr. Maurizio Bevilacqua (Vaughan—King—Aurora, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, Canada is one of the world's largest producers of
automobiles but their assembly alone does not account for the
importance of the sector to Canadian manufacturing. A host of
associated companies, large and small, make up Canada's
automotive after market. They greatly contribute to the world
class standing of Canada's automotive industry.
The Automotive Industry Association of Canada represents these
companies. They are some 1,300 in number and include suppliers,
national distributors and wholesalers which employ more than
220,000 people.
This morning AIA Canada's board of directors met with members of
parliament to discuss how industry and government could work
together to solve the current and future challenges facing the
industry. The discussions are part of AIA's ongoing commitment
to participate constructively in the policy making process of the
country.
AIA Canada has provided parliamentarians with timely analysis on
a number of issues and presents the perspective of the industry
in a clear and effective manner. I thank its members for their
contribution and involvement in helping shape Canada's public
policy.
* * *
AGRICULTURE
Ms. Lynne Yelich (Blackstrap, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, as a third generation farmer and representative of a
largely agricultural riding, I am pleased that an emergency
debate was called today on the crisis facing the agricultural
community.
I impress upon my colleagues the devastation that is taking
place in the rural economy. It will only get worse in the short
term without a strong federal initiative to end the downward
spiral.
Farm incomes are expected to drop again this year to 65% below
the five year average, a five year average which was built on an
existing crisis period. Saskatchewan has approximately 25% of
the nation's farmers and annually the number drops as people are
forced off the land.
The struggles of our primary producers affect the entire
country. Therefore the support of the House is critical to a
solution being found. Let us use this opportunity to work
together to bring about an end to the crisis.
Let us keep in mind that Eisenhower once said “It is mighty
easy to farm when your plough is a pencil and you are a thousand
miles from a cornfield”.
* * *
MEDAL OF BRAVERY
Mr. Jerry Pickard (Chatham—Kent Essex, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, at a ceremony in Ottawa earlier this month, five
individuals were awarded the Governor General's Medal of Bravery
for their valiant rescue efforts along the shores of Lake Erie at
Point Pelee National Park in August 1998.
1400
Two Canadians and three Americans were involved: Helmut
Dueckman, Mark Major and Juliana Bartel, as well as Ashley and
Marna Getz.
On that day when two small children were overcome by two metre
waves, those who witnessed the event did not pause to react.
They put their lives at risk to save others.
Tragically, 71 year old Helmut Dueckman, grandfather of these
two children, lost his life despite the heroic rescue and revival
attempts by Mark Major, a member of the Point Pelee National Park
staff.
We commend these tremendous acts of bravery and join Helmut
Dueckman's family in mourning his loss.
* * *
JOB CREATION
Ms. Bonnie Brown (Oakville, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, last
Friday Statistics Canada released its latest labour force survey.
The numbers again confirm our government's successful job
creation record. Over two million new jobs have been created
since the Liberal government took office in 1993.
In the last year our job creation record is particularly
remarkable when it comes to women and youth. Compared with a
year ago, employment among women is up by 154,000 or 2.7%. This
increase is more than twice the increase for men. As for youth,
their employment grew by more than 70,000 jobs in the last five
months.
What has been the strongest sector for job creation in the last
12 months? It has been trade. Employment in the trade sector
rose by 4.9% in the last year, a rate more than double that of
all other industries.
We will continue to establish policies that ensure all Canadians
can participate in a future where Canada is one of the most
innovative, inclusive and entrepreneurial nations in the world.
* * *
HEART AND STROKE FOUNDATION
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
cardiovascular diseases impose a devastating burden on Canadians,
accounting for 37% of all deaths annually and placing a
significant hardship and a diminished quality of life upon those
living with these conditions. As our population ages we can
expect to see an increase in Canadians living with the crippling
effects of heart disease and stroke.
During this month of February, representatives from the Heart
and Stroke Foundation of Canada will be going door to door in
order to raise awareness and to receive donations as part of a
national strategy to deal with cardiovascular disease. Events
are planned in communities across Ontario and from coast to coast
and I would like to encourage all Canadians and all members in
the House to participate.
I call on all members of the House to raise awareness in their
communities and in their ridings about the benefits of leading a
heart healthy lifestyle. Our efforts can save lives.
* * *
SASKATCHEWAN CURLING
Mr. Roy Bailey (Souris—Moose Mountain, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, a recent poll conducted by a
Saskatchewan radio station named curling as Saskatchewan's number
one sport, with hockey a close second.
Saskatchewan is well known for its addiction to curling. Not
only does Saskatchewan love the game, but it also loves to play
host to curling events, both national and provincial.
A month ago volunteers from Weyburn and for miles around put on
an extraordinary show when Weyburn hosted the National Mixed
Curling Championship. Later in January, the Estevan Curling Club
hosted the Tournament of Hearts, which selected the Saskatchewan
rink for the national finals.
Of course I am proud of the Estevan and Weyburn areas for
showing the many visitors their unlimited hospitality and of
course I am proud to tell you that they are both in the
Souris—Moose Mountain constituency.
* * *
EAST COAST MUSIC AWARDS
Mr. Mark Eyking (Sydney—Victoria, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
being a proud member from beautiful Cape Breton Island, I would
like to congratulate my fellow Cape Bretoners on their
achievements at the East Coast Music Awards on Sunday.
Gordie Sampson, Freddie Lavery, the Barra MacNeils, Natalie
MacMaster and Jennifer Rollan made us very proud for the awards
that they received.
As many Canadians know, Cape Breton has produced many fine
musicians, and with music being a very important part of our
culture, Mr. Speaker, you can be assured that Cape Breton will
continue to contribute to the Canadian music scene.
* * *
[Translation]
ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
Ms. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, 2,000 jobs
created, another 5,000 while a new plant was being constructed,
the reopening of a plant closed since 1998, close to one billion
dollars in investments: these are the results, in the riding of
Mercier alone, of the recent Mission Québec to Spain.
1405
Interquista, a consortium of GESPA and SGF, will be building a
recyclable plastics plant in Montreal East at a cost of $700
million. The petrochemical industry in the east of Montreal,
which was hard hit by federal policy, is being reborn.
Recommendations by BAPE have been integrated with the project
and will allay any concerns the public may have.
Combining Quebec's openness to the world, the potential of our
economy, the persuasive force of our state, and the power of our
economic levers, that is the Quebec model.
And it works. Only the rest of Canada is bothered by it. May
we move quickly from the status of a poor province to that of a
rich country.
* * *
[English]
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, farmers across Canada are in a state of crisis.
They are begging for help from the Liberal government. They are
cash strapped through no fault of their own. Years of low
commodity prices with high input costs have pushed many family
farms to the brink of bankruptcy. This $100 billion industry
needs immediate government assistance.
Agriculture is the backbone of the rural economy. Imagine the
negative domino effect of taking the farmers off the land. Over
the last two years Manitoba has lost 20% of its farmers. This
year we will lose another 16% if the government does not come up
with an immediate cash injection.
As a member of parliament from rural Canada, I plead with this
government to lend a helping hand to those who provide the food
for our tables, the Canadian farmers.
* * *
TRANSPORTATION SAFETY
Mr. Andy Savoy (Tobique—Mactaquac, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the disgraceful and perilous section of the Trans-Canada Highway
running between St. Leonard and Fredericton, New Brunswick is the
primary transportation corridor for destinations in Atlantic
Canada. This section is in dire need of an upgrade to four
lanes. Hundreds of thousands of people from all across Canada
travel this portion of the Trans-Canada every year.
Since the federal election in November there have been no less
than 40 accidents, 6 serious injuries and 1 fatality on this
section alone.
Currently there is approximately $90 million left in the
lucrative Canada-New Brunswick highway agreement. Unfortunately,
little of this funding has been spent on road improvements in the
two years since the last provincial election, and it is rumoured
that in the next two years none will be spent until immediately
prior to the next provincial election.
For the sake of all Canadians, I call on the provincial
government to sacrifice its self-serving political agenda and
begin spending money on twinning this section of the Trans-Canada
or accept the responsibility for the unnecessary deaths of
Canadian adults and children whose lives will be lost on this
corridor of death over the next two years.
* * *
HEALTH CARE
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, we are nearing the one year anniversary of the
introduction of Alberta's bill 11, a bill that has since been
passed, received royal assent and, only 11 days ago, had
standards approved that will allow private hospitals to treat
patients overnight.
We are all one year older but this Liberal government is clearly
no wiser. As Ralph Klein goes to the hustings he will surely
defend his attacks on medicare by pointing to this federal
government's silence on bill 11.
Canadians watched the Liberals run an election on being the
defenders of medicare. Since then they have done nothing to
protect medicare. This weekend we saw a real defence of
medicare. We saw the Manitoba NDP government stand up against
private hospitals. It did not just express grave concern. That
government slammed the door on two tier health care in that
province. That is how it is done.
When will our federal government show the same courage and
prohibit private for profit hospitals?
* * *
ELIZABETH GRANDBOIS
Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise
today to pay tribute to a courageous Canadian woman, Elizabeth
Grandbois.
Ms. Grandbois is a woman of tremendous strength and volition. In
1997 she was diagnosed with ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease. Since
then she has maximized her time by focusing her energies on
raising awareness about this fast moving neurological disorder.
On February 2 Elizabeth staged a huge musical celebration and
fundraiser called Elizabeth's Concert of Hope.
She enlisted great Canadian talent: the Nylons, Susan Aglukark,
Michael Burgess, Ian Thomas and Kevin Hicks. They joined her in
this tremendous project and, surrounded by friends and family,
politicians, celebrities and generous supporters, Elizabeth
welcomed 750 individuals to Hamilton's Theatre Aquarius. Together
they raised an incredible $250,000.
Elizabeth Grandbois is an outstanding Canadian. I am proud to
have her as a friend and as a constituent in Burlington. Her
courage will benefit all Canadians. As singer-songwriter Ian
Thomas said, “The event was a testament to an excellent spirit.
Where most of us would recoil and nurse our wounds, she tends to
represent a spirit of humanity most of us aspire to”.
* * *
1410
[Translation]
GAMES OF LA FRANCOPHONIE
Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in 2001
Canada will be hosting the IVth Games of la Francophonie. They
will be held in Ottawa, the capital and a unilingual English
city.
Here are a few useful statistics for the countries who will be
coming to visit us and who will be told that Canada, “the best
country in the world”, is bilingual.
First, according to Statistics Canada, 91% of the population of
the city of Ottawa speaks English only, and 9.5% are francophone.
Second, the rate of assimilation of French speakers in the
unilingual English capital of Canada is close to 30%.
In light of this, it would clearly appear that the expression
best reflecting the true picture of the unilingual English
capital will be a sign in English saying “Welcome to the Games
of la Francophonie”.
* * *
SAMUEL DE CHAMPLAIN
Mr. Denis Paradis (Brome—Missisquoi, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in 1604,
Samuel de Champlain arrived in Acadia. He explored the
coastline in the hopes of finding an ideal place to establish a
colony. This was the start of a fine and great adventure.
As we approach the 400th anniversary of Champlain's arrival in
America, I will undertake to make several statements in the
House to focus on this great page of history.
Canadians, and more especially our young people, must remember
all these facts and discover this great explorer, who, with
other men and women, helped build the new land called New
France.
Samuel de Champlain did not hesitate to go in search of his
dreams. He was a true empire builder.
According to author Samuel Eliot Morison, Champlain is one of
the greatest explorers in history, probably the person who
played the greatest role in the history of Canada.
I will come back to this.
* * *
[English]
FOOD INSPECTION AGENCY
Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): Mr. Speaker, it
has been almost two weeks since Canada imposed a ban on beef
imports from Brazil. This decision was not based on science but
on politics. The Prime Minister's office says that it is a
health issue not a trade issue, in spite of receiving no evidence
from their own officials that there is BSE.
Even though scientists from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency
confirmed that there is no evidence of human risk, the Minister
of Agriculture and Agri-Food and the federal government continue
to persist in discrediting Canada's reputation. The Liberal
government is damaging our trade situation further by setting the
example for other countries to take Canada's lead in basing
decisions on politics and not on science.
The Liberal government has gone so far as to muzzle and harass
scientists within the CFIA who question the government's
intentions because they know there is not sufficient evidence to
maintain this ban.
The Prime Minister has allowed the industry minister's bungling
of the Bombardier file to affect the work of the CFIA and
Canada's international trade reputation. It is time to stop
passing the buck. The Prime Minister and the cabinet must answer
to Canadians.
* * *
PORNOGRAPHY
Mr. Joe Comuzzi (Thunder Bay—Superior North, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, in October of last year Corpus Christi Church and St.
Margaret's Church in Thunder Bay, led by their pastors, Father
Pat Stiller and Father Donnelly, and their committees, led by
Elizabeth Bortelussi and Rosalie Douglas, organized a white
ribbon campaign against child pornography.
Hundreds of citizens wore those ribbons, signed them and
returned them to their parishes, and I, in turn, delivered them
just recently to the Minister of Justice.
It was never the intention of this parliament, when it passed
the charter of rights and freedoms, to allow any form of child
pornography in this country. I would hope that by the actions of
these two parishes in Thunder Bay the benches will take judicial
notice of the intent of parliament when it comes to making
decisions with respect to child pornography in Canada.
* * *
INTERNATIONAL TRADE
Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, in China lung cancer and tobacco
related diseases are of epidemic proportions. The World Health
Organization has said that three million people will die in China
every year in the near future. In fact, tobacco companies have
free dances and distribute free cigarettes to children so that
they will become addicted.
Why has the Prime Minister and the government taken
representatives of the tobacco industry to China with them? Why
does the government claim to be for health care and claim to try
to prevent smoking here at home while in the same vein take
smoking and tobacco reps abroad? Is it the official policy of
the government to say that it is preventing tobacco consumption
at home while promoting tobacco consumption abroad?
This government should stop being hypocritical, eject the
tobacco reps right off the team Canada mission and start doing
abroad what it says it will do here at home.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
1415
[English]
ETHICS COUNSELLOR
Mr. Stockwell Day (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, we have before us today a
confirmation from the ethics counsellor that the Prime Minister
indeed did have a stake in the golf course next to the Auberge
Grand-Mère during the time that it received millions of dollars.
It is called a conflict of interest.
The ethics counsellor has now confirmed what we have been
maintaining all along, that the Prime Minister stood to lose
money if the value of that golf course dropped.
Why does the Prime Minister continue to deny that he had an
interest in those shares during that time?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the leader's assertion is completely wrong. Mr. Wilson
made some comments about hypothetical situations but he continued
to reiterate that he had looked into the matter fully and he
found that the Prime Minister had acted totally properly and
within the rules, and that he did not own shares at any relevant
time.
I suggest, therefore, that the Leader of the Opposition withdraw
his assertion because he is only sinking deeper into the mud
every time he opens his mouth about this topic.
[Translation]
Mr. Stockwell Day (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the ethics counsellor finally confirmed
that the Prime Minister had a personal interest in the value of
the Auberge Grand-Mère remaining high.
Rather than treating taxpayers like so much baggage, why is the
Prime Minister not acknowledging that the whole Auberge
Grand-Mère is nothing less than a conflict of interest?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
ethics counsellor has maintained on several occasions that the
Prime Minister was not in conflict of interest in this matter.
He noted this in writing a few weeks ago to the leader. He
confirmed it in interviews and maintains his position that the
Prime Minister had no conflict of interest in this matter.
[English]
Mr. Stockwell Day (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, he should consult yesterday's and
today's confirmation from the ethics counsellor.
The official opposition continues to bring forward ideas that
will bring democracy and freedom to the House of Commons which
will be good for all Canadians.
Tonight there will be a vote on a motion that I tabled last
week, a vote asking for support for a promise from the red book
that we would have an ethics counsellor who reports to this
House. That was a Liberal promise, but we understand that the
Liberal members of parliament will be whipped into opposing their
own promise.
What is it about this motion that the Prime Minister thinks will
hurt the country?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the ethics counsellor did not confirm that the Prime
Minister was in a conflict of interest. The Leader of the
Opposition is completely wrong in saying that.
I also want to say that what the Leader of the Opposition is
asking members to do is nothing more than simply attack the Prime
Minister for acting on undertakings he made to create an ethics
counsellor position which did not exist before the 1993 election.
The ethics counsellor reports to the Prime Minister who reports
to parliament and that is why we should vote against the
opposition motion. It has no basis in reality.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I sort of thought the question was: Is the Liberal
government going to carry through on its promises in the red
book? It was pretty simple.
I first asked questions of the Prime Minister's interest for the
Auberge Grand-Mère on February—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. The Chair wishes to hear the
question being posed by the hon. member for Edmonton North and I
am sure other hon. members also wish to hear the question.
Miss Deborah Grey: Mr. Speaker, I first asked a question
about the Auberge Grand-Mère on February 1, 1999, two years ago.
The Prime Minister and his ethics guard dog have pretended that
the Prime Minister had no financial interest in the Auberge
Grand-Mère.
Now the Prime Minister takes off to China and his ethics
counsellor cracks. He now admits that the Prime Minister in fact
did have a financial interest.
1420
The question is, why the two year cover-up?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member, as she is every day, is completely
wrong in this. The ethics counsellor has not changed his
position. The ethics counsellor has carried out his
responsibilities for which he was praised by opposition parties.
He is doing his job on an independent basis and should be praised
for that.
Speaking of cover-up, how long did the hon. member cover up her
intention to take her pension?
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, they try to deflect it, but the issue is that the
Prime Minister and the ethics counsellor—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. The hon. member for Edmonton
North has the floor. We will hear her question.
Miss Deborah Grey: Mr. Speaker, when the Prime Minister
called the ethics counsellor in January 1996 he warned him that
the sale of his shares had fallen through. Until those shares
were finally sold in 1999, the Deputy Prime Minister said no
relevant time. There is nothing more relevant than the fact that
the ethics counsellor is now condemning the Prime Minister. After
that, $3.4 million started flowing into the Auberge Grand-Mère.
If that hotel had been allowed to go belly up, the golf course
obviously would have been worth less, and the ethics counsellor
has now confirmed that.
The question is, why was taxpayer money used to prop up the
Prime Minister's personal investments?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, when it comes to the flow of funds, the member will have
to direct her question to the Quebec government. This was done
under a Quebec provincial program.
The Prime Minister's position, as stated by the ethics
counsellor to the Standing Committee on Industry, is that “the
Prime Minister doesn't own the shares and has not owned the
shares since November 1, 1993, which is the only important
issue”. These were the words of the ethics counsellor before a
committee of the House.
I am not trying to deflect anything. When it comes to answering
the deputy leader with respect to her pension, it is not a
deflection, it is a direct hit and she has taken it on the chin.
* * *
[Translation]
TRADE
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, last
week, the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food told us that the
ban on Brazilian beef was necessary because Brazil had failed to
complete a questionnaire and public health was at stake.
Recently, we learned that Canada knowingly continued to import
meat from Great Britain, Spain, France and several other
European Union countries, even after the risks of mad cow
disease had become known.
I would remind members that these imports were still going on
last year.
Will the minister explain to the House how Brazilian beef would
be a greater threat to public health than the thousands of kilos
of meat from the European Union?
[English]
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Canada has not been importing beef from
countries known to have BSE for many decades.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, but
that is what Statistics Canada documents show.
I know that the Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food claims
that Statistics Canada's documents and figures are not reliable.
Since on this occasion we do not have the best system in the
world, I imagine that Statistics Canada and the Department of
Agriculture and Agri-Food are having talks.
I would remind the minister that Brazil is a member of Mercosur,
a free trade association which includes such countries as
Uruguay and Argentina. Knowing that Brazilian beef can move
between these two countries, what guarantee does the minister
have that Brazilian beef is not entering Canada through
Argentina and Uruguay?
[English]
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, that is exactly the type of reason that
we are doing the risk assessment on what has been happening to
the cattle that Brazil has been importing over the last number of
years. We need to know that Brazil has had the capability to
ascertain where these animals have ended up, are ending up and
will end up, and whether they are ending up in the food chain.
That is why the risk assessment is being done.
On the other information, the hon. member should get his facts
straight. The numbers and references to Statistics Canada are
referring to the World Health Organization risk material coming
in from the European Union, and we have not brought in any.
1425
[Translation]
Mr. Pierre Paquette (Joliette, BQ): Mr. Speaker, to justify his
embargo on Brazilian beef, the minister mentioned a
questionnaire that was apparently not completed by Brazilian
authorities.
Has the minister seen the questionnaire and can he tell the
House if he found anything out of the ordinary that would
justify his fears and his embargo?
[English]
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this questionnaire was put together by
the NAFTA partners, Canada, the United States and Mexico. In
1998 those three countries decided which countries they would
send the questionnaire to and that when the results were
received, they would jointly assess the information that came
back.
Brazil did not send its information back until a week ago last
Friday and at that time it was not complete. Technicians are
going there today to follow up on that information.
[Translation]
Mr. Pierre Paquette (Joliette, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the government
is using the fact that Brazil was late in returning its
questionnaire to justify its embargo. We now know that the
questionnaire has been received. I imagine that, in the
meantime, the government has reviewed the questionnaire
completed by Brazilian authorities.
Can the minister tell us whether there are significant
differences between the answers on this questionnaire and those
on the questionnaires completed by Argentina and Uruguay and, if
so, what they are? Do these differences justify a total ban on
Brazilian beef?
[English]
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I hope the hon. member is not questioning
the safety of the health of Canadians.
I will repeat again that Brazil has not yet provided all of the
information to the technicians. However, a technical team from
Canada, Mexico and the United States will be going to Brazil
later today so that they can be there tomorrow to work in
co-operation with the Brazilian officials in order to do the risk
assessment.
* * *
HUMAN RIGHTS
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, what is
wrong with this picture? The Prime Minister goes to China. He
says that Canada wants China—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. It is very difficult for the
Chair to hear the hon. member for Halifax, and not just because
she is seated a long way from the Chair. We would like to hear
the hon. member. I am sure that hon. members on both sides of
the House will allow her to ask her question.
Ms. Alexa McDonough: Mr. Speaker, understandably there
are some pictures that this group does not want to hear about.
The Prime Minister goes to China. He says that Canada wants
China to respect human rights. Forty-eight hours into Canada's
trade mission, some of the Prime Minister's own delegation taunt
some Canadian students and tell them to shut up about human
rights abuses.
My question is for the foreign affairs minister. Does Canada
have a credible human rights position or is the Prime Minister
just posturing?
Hon. John Manley (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I think what is wrong with this picture is that the hon.
member does not know what is going on.
Earlier today the Prime Minister gave a speech in China in which
he was very clear on the importance of the rule of law. He spoke
to the rule of law and the independence of the judiciary by
saying that “moving to the rule of law carries with it the
subordination of all social, economic, political and individual
behaviour to an agreed set of codes and regulations”. He said
that “no one can be above the law” and that “rules must be the
common property of all citizens”.
That was a very clear statement in favour of the importance of
the rule of law in human rights in China which our Prime Minister
was in a position to deliver.
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, talk
about a bundle of contradictions and mixed messages. We have
businessmen, invited by the Prime Minister, who go to China and
condemn Canadian students who stand up for human rights.
My question is for the foreign affairs minister. If the Prime
Minister is doing anything more than posturing, will he condemn
the Canadian business voices who said not to speak up against
Chinese human rights abuses?
Hon. John Manley (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, if I follow the hon. member's point, we have the Prime
Minister in China speaking forcefully for human rights. We had
some Canadian students voicing their opinions but when they ran
into trouble with Chinese authorities, our embassy officials made
sure they were released and treated properly. At the same time,
the hon. member does not think that Canadian business people have
the right to express their opinions.
Exactly where do human rights lie in the mentality of the hon.
member?
* * *
1430
ETHICS COUNSELLOR
Right Hon. Joe Clark (Calgary Centre, PC): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the Minister of Industry. The alleged
purchaser of the Prime Minister's golf club shares in 1993 was a
company called Akimbo, controlled by Mr. Jonas Prince. Mr.
Prince told the National Post that the agreement was never
a firm sale but rather an option or right to purchase. That
would mean the shares always belonged to the Prime Minister.
Will the Minister of Industry seek the agreement of Mr. Jonas
Prince to table in parliament all relevant documents and
agreements in this case?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the ethics counsellor, in testifying before the industry
committee of the House, said “The Prime Minister doesn't have an
interest in this matter. He sold his interest”.
He went on to say: “It was a sale free and clear of his
interest in that golf course. The Prime Minister doesn't own the
shares and has not owned the shares since November 1, 1993, which
is the only important issue”.
That was the ethics counsellor's testimony before the standing
committee of the House.
Right Hon. Joe Clark (Calgary Centre, PC): Mr. Speaker,
just to keep the Deputy Prime Minister up to date, the ethics
counsellor has now said that the Prime Minister's shares in the
golf course were never placed in a blind trust. That is what the
ethics counsellor said last week.
Will the Deputy Prime Minister confirm that the Prime Minister's
shares in the Grand-Mère Golf Club were never placed in a blind
trust?
Hon. Brian Tobin (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the leader of the Conservative Party has admitted to
fishing on this question. Yesterday he asked for urgent
information on executive search firms, saying that search firms
had been switched in the hiring between Mr. Schroder and Mr.
Vennat. I checked and that information is false.
He asked for information on which executive search firms were
involved in the hiring of executives at BDC. I can tell him that
I have in my hands the list of not one or two but of ten. That
is normal practice by any corporation when seeking out
executives, depending upon their skill sets.
The hon. member is fishing. He is coming up dry. He is running
away from his earlier—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Richmond.
[Translation]
Mr. Joe Peschisolido (Richmond, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker,
yesterday the ethics counsellor, Mr. Wilson, said that the Prime
Minister did have an interest in the financial health of the
Auberge Grand-Mère and the Grand-Mère golf course.
Mr. Wilson clearly stated that the Prime Minister might lose
money on his investment.
Is the Prime Minister in agreement with Mr. Wilson and will he
simply acknowledge his financial interest between 1996 and 1999
in the Auberge Grand-Mère?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Mr.
Wilson was speaking hypothetically. The matter is clear and he
has reached a decision on it. He has said clearly, and I quote
him in English:
[English]
“The Prime Minister doesn't own the shares and has not owned
the shares since November 1, 1993, which is the only important
issue”.
[Translation]
This was what the ethics counsellor testified before the House
of Commons Standing Committee on Industry.
Mr. Joe Peschisolido (Richmond, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker,
in 1996, as soon as the Prime Minister discovered that the sale
of his shares had fallen through, he contacted Mr. Wilson to ask
his advice.
Mr. Wilson offered him a clear choice: declare his shares or
sell them.
I want to know why the Prime Minister did not follow the advice
of his ethics counsellor, Mr. Wilson.
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
according to my information, the Prime Minister did follow the
advice of the ethics counsellor.
* * *
YOUNG OFFENDERS
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
currently, when an adolescent commits a minor offence, the
matter is referred to the crown prosecutor, who determines
whether the young person needs help. If so, the Quebec system
rehabilitates him immediately.
1435
With the minister's bill, the youth will receive a warning only.
The crown prosecutor will not see the record and will not be
able to require the young offender to follow a program of
rehabilitation.
Does the minister realize that her bill puts an end to Quebec's
educational approach?
[English]
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I have said throughout this
debate with the hon. member, our new youth justice legislation
provides all the provinces with sufficient flexibility to
continue those programs and policies they presently have in
place.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
instead of the minister saying just any old thing, I would like
her to try to understand Quebec's approach in this area. I will
give her another very straightforward example.
Today, a young offender found guilty of a serious crime leaves a
rehabilitation centre when Quebec social services consider him
rehabilitated. However, with the minister's bill, the young
person will be treated as an adult and automatically released
after serving two thirds of his sentence, rehabilitated or not.
Does the minister understand that the bill prevents Quebec from
continuing its rehabilitative approach?
[English]
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this bill does not prevent
Quebec from pursuing its rehabilitative approach. What it does
is encourage that approach.
We in the federal government will be providing additional
resources to the province of Quebec to build upon its
rehabilitative program.
* * *
ETHICS COUNSELLOR
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, cracks keep opening up in the dike
the Liberals have tried to build to hold back the Prime
Minister's apparent wrongdoing.
Last week Canadians learned the industry minister's claim that
the Prime Minister's golf course was in a blind trust was false.
Now comes the admission that the Prime Minister stood to lose
money if the value of his golf course fell. These raise valid
concerns about apparent conflict of interest.
Why does the Prime Minister not simply table the relevant
documents so that Canadians can judge for themselves?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the Prime Minister has given full answers in the House.
The ethics counsellor has appeared before the industry committee
and has given very full answers on this matter.
The whole picture is already before the public as well as the
House.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, that is absolute nonsense. There are
no full answers, but there are a lot of full questions that the
Prime Minister refuses to answer.
If the documents are there that show his interest in the golf
course was sold, or what it was sold for, or when it was sold,
why does he not just table them so that everyone can see and
judge for themselves? What is he hiding?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the Prime Minister is not hiding anything.
I am wondering why opposition members persist in these
questions. Are they trying to hide the fact that they lost the
election because Canadians said that they had no vision, that
they wanted to get rid of the health care system and that they
wanted to get rid of old age pensions?
They are trying to hide a lot and that is why they are bringing
up this subject now.
* * *
[Translation]
HOME HEATING ASSISTANCE
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the
Secretary of State for International Financial Institutions said
that there had been problems with the distribution of cheques
for home heating assistance and that even dead people and
inmates had received such cheques.
He also said that the government was considering recovering
these moneys, including through income tax returns.
Does the minister endorse these comments and is he not concerned
that the operation to recover these cheques could look just like
the distribution process in that it might not be conducted
properly, that it might be based on ill-suited criteria and that
it could create new injustices?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I
repeated many times in the House, the secretary of state said
that officials from the Department of National Revenue and the
Department of Finance are reviewing the matter. Some provinces
are also involved. Once a decision is made, everyone will be
informed accordingly.
Mrs. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): Mr. Speaker, at the rate
things are going, should the Minister of Finance not consider
more effective and equitable ways to truly compensate those
affected by the rise in home heating costs, rather than correct
an injustice by creating another?
1440
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we
proceeded in this fashion for the same reason that the provinces
did. It was the most effective way to give these cheques to the
poor.
If we had chosen another solution, these people would have
received their cheques next summer instead of in January. I can
assure the hon. member that it is a lot colder in January than
in July.
* * *
[English]
MINISTER OF FINANCE
Mr. Brian Pallister (Portage—Lisgar, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, it is time for somebody on the front bench of the
Liberal government to stand up for the truth about the unethical
conduct of the Prime Minister. Where I come from, a person who
knows that a wrong has been done and remains silent about it is
as guilty as the perpetrator of the act and becomes an
accomplice.
It is time for the Minister of Finance to stop defending the
indefensible actions of the Prime Minister by his silence. Will
the Minister of Finance today distance himself from the
inappropriate actions of his leader, or will he remain silent and
condone them?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member is a newcomer to the House. He has
been—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. It is impossible for the
Chair to hear the answer the Deputy Prime Minister is giving to
the question.
Hon. Herb Gray: Mr. Speaker, it is well known in the
House, and I think it is the principle even in the house in which
the member served before, that we can only expect ministers to
answer on matters under their administrative responsibility. The
hon. member is trying to paint a misleading picture to the public
who has been watching this on TV by asking this question.
I notice how the hon. member ran away from the Conservative
Party when he did not end up as its leader. I do not think he
should be giving any lessons to anybody on these kinds of
subjects.
Some hon. members: More, more.
The Speaker: I know many hon. members are wishing to ask
questions and many members are wishing to give answers. If we
take up time like this we will not get them all in.
Mr. Brian Pallister (Portage—Lisgar, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, I thank the Deputy Prime Minister for letting us all
know that truth is not in the purview of the Minister of Finance.
My question—
The Speaker: I think we will move on to the next
question.
* * *
[Translation]
AMATEUR SPORT
Mr. Jeannot Castonguay (Madawaska—Restigouche, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, my question is for the Secretary of State for Amateur
Sport.
Can the hon. member can tell us what the Government of
Canada is planning to do to help our athletes prepare for the
2002 winter games in Salt Lake City?
Hon. Denis Coderre (Secretary of State (Amateur Sport), Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, on April 27 and 28, as the House knows, the Prime
Minister of Canada will be chairing the National Sport Summit in
order to put in place a new Canadian sport system.
In the meantime, we must respond to immediate needs in order to
create conditions that will help our athletes reach their
objectives.
Today, I am announcing an additional $1.2 million in funding to
help our Olympic and Paralympic athletes achieve their dreams.
Let us all support our athletes and be proud of them.
* * *
[English]
HEALTH
Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Mr. Speaker, last
night on the CBC there was a very alarming report about Canadian
diabetics who suffered severe impacts from using genetically
engineered insulin.
Indeed, at least 121 serious complaints from physicians, and I
suspect there are more, beg the question as to why Health Canada
is leaving these diabetics at risk by not ensuring that animal
insulin is accessible and available from pharmaceutical
companies.
What will the government do to protect the health of these
Canadians?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I thank the hon. member for raising the topic. It is an
important one. I will look into it and get back to her as soon
as possible.
1445
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, if the government is as concerned about food safety as
it has claimed throughout the whole Brazilian beef episode, why
then would it consider the very scientists who are responsible
for human health and food safety to be irrelevant to this issue?
The Deputy Prime Minister said yesterday that it was okay to gag
scientists for speaking out about public health because, as he
said, they had no responsibility in the area.
That begs the question, why in heaven's name were they not
involved from the beginning and will they now be included in
developing a science based, fail safe system of dealing with the
potential threat of mad cow disease?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member would have more credibility if she had
quoted me accurately. I said that the officials in question were
not working directly on the matter of the ban on beef from
Brazil.
They are not in the Canadian Food Inspection Agency. They work
in an area of the Department of Health that was not dealing with
this issue. I think this is a fact that should be put on the
table. She ought to revisit her question in light of this fact
and other facts in this matter.
* * *
[Translation]
BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT BANK OF CANADA
Mr. André Bachand (Richmond—Arthabaska, PC): Mr. Speaker, the
Prime Minister is up to his neck in the Auberge Grand-Mère
affair.
He made improper use of his prerogative as Prime Minister by
intervening directly with the federal Business Development Bank
of Canada. He made improper use of his prerogative as Prime
Minister by intervening to change the head of the BDC. He made
improper use of his prerogative as Prime Minister by intervening
directly in a matter that was indirectly in his own personal
interest.
He made improper use of his prerogative as Prime Minister by
not ensuring that the shares he held until 1999 were put in
trust. Why?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
only improper use I see is the improper use of logic in this
farfetched question. The ethics counsellor has stated on
numerous occasions that the Prime Minister had not broken any
rules in this connection and had acted within the rules. He has
done nothing wrong.
[English]
Right Hon. Joe Clark (Calgary Centre, PC): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the Minister of Industry. Will he table the
documents I requested yesterday regarding the specific search
firms used in the specific cases of Bernie Schroder, Michel
Vennat and Jean Carle?
Will he also confirm that the suggestion to use the firm Spencer
Stuart to facilitate the hiring of Mr. Jean Carle was a
suggestion made during a hockey game to Mr. François Beaudoin by
Mr. Jean Pelletier, chief of staff for the Prime Minister of
Canada?
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. The Chair has to be able to
hear the question and the answer. It was getting difficult at
the end of the question and it is impossible now.
Hon. Brian Tobin (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I was wondering why the leader of the Conservative Party
was running away from his questions of yesterday. Perhaps it is
because he has discovered his assertion that search firms were
switched is a false assertion.
There are not one or two executive search firms. There are at
least 10 of which I know. They are all employed for different
jobs that need to be filled.
No direction is given to BDC on who it hires as an executive
search firm. I can say it is something I do not do. I spoke to
my predecessor and it is something he did not do. As for hockey
games and fishing trips, I wish the member well.
* * *
ETHICS COUNSELLOR
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, the authorities who wrote the book on ethics are
starting to speak out about the Prime Minister's conduct.
Gordon Robertson, a clerk of the Privy Council for 12 years
under both Lester Pearson and Pierre Trudeau, said “I don't
trust the government. What happened in Shawinigan never would
have met the standards set in Pearson's ethics code. I should
know. I drafted it”.
Why does the Prime Minister allow lower ethical standards to be
kept in his government than he had to live with in the Pearson
and Trudeau governments?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I think I will have to check the alleged quote in the
context of which it was stated. Often when members of the
opposition get up on things like this and then we look to see
what was actually said, it turns out to be far different from
what is alleged.
For example, yesterday the Leader of the Opposition said he had
Quebec government documents about investor flow of funds. Our
office tried to get copies of those documents. So far the Leader
of the Opposition's office has failed to provide them. I wonder
why.
1450
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, Mr. Robertson said the shenanigans in Shawinigan would
never have happened under Lester Pearson. He said “The Prime
Minister has lowered the bar” on ethics.
Why is it that no matter how low the ethical bar goes, the Prime
Minister always finds a way to limbo under it?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, no one can get as low as the hon. member on these
unwarranted assertions. When it comes to limboing low, he set
the world record and nobody can beat it.
* * *
[Translation]
REPRODUCTIVE TECHNOLOGIES
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
scientists announced yesterday that the sequencing of the human
genome is almost complete.
However, one problem arises, among many. We know that 99% of
all genes are common to humanity, but private enterprise would
like to hold the rights to the sequencing.
Does the government intend to legislate to ensure that
discoveries pertaining to the human genome are available
universally and at no cost?
Hon. Gilbert Normand (Secretary of State (Science, Research and
Development), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Canada's position in this
sector is the same as that taken by Mr. Blair and Mr. Clinton a
few months ago.
We are currently establishing our genomics research institutes.
We have invested $160 million in Genome Canada and we will
continue this research as a country providing at the moment the
greatest support for genetics research and placing third in the
world as a country. Regulations will meet international
requirements.
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
does the government intend to support in the international
community the proposal made by many scientists that the human
genome and its sequencing be declared a heritage of humanity?
Hon. Gilbert Normand (Secretary of State (Science, Research
and Development), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I repeat what I have just
said: Canada's position on the ownership of genes is the same as
that of Mr. Clinton and Mr. Blair.
We will not allow it to become private property, and the future
international regulations will be drafted jointly with all of the
G-8 countries.
* * *
[English]
ETHICS COUNSELLOR
Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, I want to provide the House with a quote from the
ethics counsellor: “We are not looking to catch people. What
we are looking to do is give people advice in the first 120 days
after they are appointed, so we can take together the steps that
will ensure that there is not going to be a conflict”.
I would like to ask one of the sparks of brilliance over there
just what happens when ethical breaches and conflicts of interest
arise after 120 days as they have with the Prime Minister.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. If we are going to have
sparks of brilliance, we are going to hear it.
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, thank you for confirming that from time to time I can
give off sparks instead of the dead cinders and ashes that come
out of the mouth of the hon. member.
Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, in Canada we hear a spark of brilliance. The ethics
counsellor is quoted as saying that he helped persuade the Prime
Minister to drop the Liberal campaign promise that he as the
ethics counsellor would report to parliament. He also said that
he feared an independent ethics counsellor would usurp the
accountability of the Prime Minister.
If the Prime Minister violates the codes of ethics, who is he
accountable to? Is it the ethics counsellor? Is it cabinet? Is
it somebody else over there? Just who is he accountable to
anyway?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the Prime Minister is accountable to this parliament and
through this parliament to the Canadian people who gave him three
majority victories back to back, with an even bigger majority in
the last election. That speaks for a lot.
* * *
TRADE
Ms. Judy Sgro (York West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in Seattle
last year the world witnessed riots and protests.
At the time the government committed to more openness and
transparency in negotiating trade agreements.
1455
With the upcoming summit of the Americas in April in Quebec
City, could the government tell us in practical terms what it is
doing to ensure that it is more open and transparent?
Mr. Pat O'Brien (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for
International Trade, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the government is
firmly committed to an open and transparent process leading to an
FTAA.
The government is actively seeking input from NGOs, stakeholders
and all interested Canadians. We continue to receive written
submissions and daily comments on our website. The government is
taking great pains to ensure that our negotiating position will
reflect the views of Canadians.
* * *
INFRASTRUCTURE
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, there is a transportation infrastructure crisis on the
lower mainland of Vancouver, but the government continues to suck
$360 million a year in gas taxes out of British Columbia. That
is more than five times the annual highway budget for B.C.
How could the Minister of Transport justify this $360 million
tax grab when he does not return a single cent of that money to
B.C. for highways?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member knows that the government does not
operate and no government can operate on the basis of dedicated
taxes.
If we look back over the course of the last seven years, the
fact is that the government has invested very heavily, whether it
be in the Canada Foundation for Innovation or the national child
tax benefit. A multitude of moneys is going to universities in
British Columbia. Right across the board, we have reinvested
enormous sums and ought to do so in British Columbia.
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, the chart for spending on highways across the country
shows a different picture. The minister's national highways
program consistently goes off the pavement before it reaches B.C.
For the year 2001, out of a budget of $110 million not a single
cent, zero dollars, nothing, has gone to B.C. From now on B.C.
wants its fair share of the money.
When will the minister live up to his obligations and restore
full funding, B.C.'s fair share of that funding, for the highways
of B.C.?
Hon. David Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, my hon. friend obviously forgot that the Minister of
Finance last year in his budget allocated $2.65 billion over six
years for infrastructure, including $600 million for national
highways in particular, to be applied at the border crossings,
which includes the border crossings south of the Vancouver area.
The government is doing a lot to alleviate the transportation
crisis in the country and will do more.
* * *
[Translation]
CORRECTIONAL SERVICE CANADA
Ms. Pierrette Venne (Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, in his 1998 report, the Correctional Investigator of
Canada described the incarceration of women in men's prisons as
discriminatory.
Yet, in his report tabled yesterday, the same investigator noted
that this practice is on the increase and that corrective action
is slow in coming.
Knowing that the Correctional Service of Canada is in no way
required to take the investigator's recommendations into account,
what action does the solicitor general plan to take to ensure
that these recommendations are followed up?
[English]
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Solicitor General of Canada,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the government has taken a number of
steps to address the situation with women offenders, such as
closing the Kingston penitentiary which I am sure was a very
important move.
Also we have minimum and medium institutions across the country
to house women. We are now in the process of building maximum
institutions in these minimum and medium institutions to deal
with maximum women offenders.
* * *
HUMAN RIGHTS
Ms. Anita Neville (Winnipeg South Centre, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, my question is for the Secretary of State for
Multiculturalism. Statistics show that 43% of victims of hate
crimes attribute race and ethnicity to their victimization.
Statistics further show that the risk of victimization is higher
for those born outside Canada and is highest for members of
visible minorities and for young people. What is the secretary
of state doing to fight racism, discrimination and hate in
Canada?
Hon. Hedy Fry (Secretary of State (Multiculturalism)(Status
of Women), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we view with a great deal of
concern the rise of hate and racism in the country, especially
since the Internet is being used to target young people.
I have met with thousands of Canadians across the country to
develop a federal plan to deal with race, hate and
discrimination.
1500
A United Nations conference will be held in August. We will use
that conference to place Canada's world vision to deal with these
issues on the table, because this is a major source of war in the
world today.
* * *
PARLIAMENTARY REFORM
Mr. Vic Toews (Provencher, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, yesterday in China the Prime Minister stated that some
terra cotta warriors at the museum would “be great in the House
of Commons. You could just get them up to vote”.
It is clear that he does not need terra cotta warriors because
he has already secured the same level of co-operation from his
caucus.
Why does the Prime Minister refuse to allow his caucus to vote
for democratic reforms needed in the House of Commons?
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, there have been a number of very
significant improvements to our standing orders over recent
years. The government committed itself to further improvements
in the Speech from the Throne. We also had the excellent speech
from the Prime Minister advancing this.
I will be consulting with the House leaders of all other
parties. I am looking forward to real improvements in House of
Commons procedure, which I hope will come very soon.
* * *
PRIVILEGE
PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS—SPEAKER'S RULING
The Speaker: The Chair will now deal with the
question of privilege raised by the hon. member for
Sarnia—Lambton on February 6, 2001. The question of privilege
concerned the departure from the House of Commons of two
legislative counsel who had appeared last spring as witnesses
before the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.
The hon. member argued that the witnesses had sought, and had
received, the assurance of the committee that their testimony
would be privileged and that there would be no reprisals for
their testifying. He alleged that the departure of the two
counsel was a direct result of their testimony and so constituted
a prima facie case of privilege.
[Translation]
Before proceeding further, I would like to thank the hon. member
for Sarnia—Lambton and all members who contributed to the
discussion. In particular, I would like to draw attention to the
comments of the opposition House leader (the hon. member for
Fraser Valley), the whip of the Bloc Quebecois (the hon. member
for Verchères—Les Patriotes), the House leader for the
Progressive Conservative Party (the hon. member for
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough), and the hon. member for
Pickering—Ajax—Uxbridge.
In his presentation, the hon. member for Sarnia—Lambton
provided a chronology of events that occurred subsequent to the
committee appearance of these two individuals and suggested that
this chronology represented evidence that what he termed their
“shotgun firing” from the House of Commons was a direct
consequence of their appearance before the committee. Thus, the
hon. member argued that this action constituted a prima facie
case of privilege.
1505
First, let me say that this is a matter that I take very
seriously. The allegation, if it is founded, carries serious
repercussions not only for the two individuals directly concerned
but for the integrity of the committee system of the House as
well as for the House's reputation as a fair and just employer.
[English]
Furthermore, for my part as I render this decision, I am aware
that I play two different roles in this situation. As the
Speaker presiding over this Chamber, I must determine whether or
not the hon. member for Sarnia—Lambton has made a persuasive
argument for this matter being judged a prima facie case of
privilege. As the Speaker chairing the Board of Internal
Economy, which is the employer, I am duty bound to preserve the
confidentiality of board discussions, particularly as they
concern matters of staff relations which are, by their very
nature, completely confidential.
The case before us is especially complex for it intertwines the
issue of privilege with a complicated staff relations situation
that predates any invitation to appear before the Standing
Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. Added to this already
difficult situation is the whole matter of resourcing of the
legislative drafting function, an issue on which many hon.
members have strong opinions. Let me try to settle the
differences of view in this situation.
As presiding officer in the House, it is my duty to act as the
guardian of the rights and privileges of members and of the House
as an institution. Insofar as parliamentary privilege extends to
witnesses, I have also to protect their rights and privileges.
So first I would like to deal with the issue of the intimidation
of witnesses before parliamentary committees. It is clearly
stated at pages 862 and 863 of Marleau-Montpetit's House of
Commons Procedure and Practice that the principles of
parliamentary privilege are extended to witnesses when they
appear before a parliamentary committee. I quote:
Witnesses appearing before committees enjoy the same freedom of
speech and protection from arrest and molestation as do Members
of Parliament...Tampering with a witness or in any way attempting
to deter a witness from giving evidence at a committee meeting
may constitute a breach of privilege. Similarly, any
interference with or threats against witnesses who have already
testified may be treated as a breach of privilege by the House.
[Translation]
In the present case, the hon. member for Sarnia—Lambton has
recounted a chronology of events and, based on this chronology,
alleges a cause and effect connection between the appearance of
two counsel before the Standing Committee on Procedure and House
Affairs and their subsequent departure from the House. The hon.
member points out that the witnesses had asked for and had
received assurances from the committee that they would be
protected by parliamentary privilege in the event of reprisals
arising out of their testimony. He contends that this protection
appears to have been ignored and argues that a prima facie case
of privilege exists.
[English]
I am not going to review the chronology of the events presented
except to say, with respect, that it is incomplete. As a review
of the testimony of counsel before the committee will reveal, the
relationship between the employer and these employees was already
in an advanced state of deterioration by the time these
individuals testified. Were the appearance before the committee
the only circumstance to be considered in examining this case,
there might indeed be a persuasive argument for concluding that
this is in fact a case of reprisal.
However, things are not so simple. By the time of the testimony
last spring, the employer-employee relationship was already
characterized by acrimony and recrimination. The dispute between
these legislative counsel and management was longstanding and
continuing. Indeed, there were several issues that were the
subject of complaint at the time counsel appeared before the
committee. Given these circumstances, the Chair must conclude
that there is not a prima facie case of privilege.
The Chair would commend to all hon. members the intervention of
the hon. House leader of the official opposition who cautioned
against judging the situation having heard only one side of the
dispute. At page 309 of Debates he said:
However, I have a problem with raising personnel issues on the
floor of the House of Commons...When these two employees of the
House appeared before the standing committee and asked for
protection of the House, we did not understand that there were
outstanding grievances between management and the employees...We
ended up hearing a kind of rehash of the ongoing problems...we
did not have the background knowledge to deal with...We should
not handle a grievance process, in a public forum, on the floor
of a committee or on the floor of the House of Commons.
1510
The opposition House leader like any other member of the board,
and I remind members that I was also a board member in the last
parliament when this issue was raised there, is bound by the
statutory requirement for confidentiality of board discussions on
this or any other matter, but we all feel a particular
responsibility with regard to staff relations issues which, by
their nature, must be kept completely private and confidential.
In addressing this most unfortunate situation the board has been
guided by the usual principles of human resource management and
in seeking a solution we have made every effort to reach a fair
and equitable settlement with the parties. In one case happily
such a settlement has been possible. In the other case it has
not been possible to reach agreement and the individual is now
seeking redress through a third party tribunal, the Public
Service Staff Relations Board. While the matter that is before
the PSSRB is not, strictly speaking, sub judice, I would suggest
that we should not interfere in that process but rather allow it
to reach its own conclusions in due course.
[Translation]
Many hon. members have been employers in their professional
lives before being elected to this House. All hon. members are
now employers in their own right of staff here in their Hill
offices or at home in their constituency offices.
I know that hon. members will appreciate from their own
experience that the most difficult and often the most
delicate situation an employer can face is dealing with
employees with whom there are irreconcilable differences.
[English]
Parliament has set out the terms of the employer-employee
relationship here at the House of Commons. Labour relations are
governed by statute, that is, the Parliament of Canada Act and
the Parliamentary Employment and Staff Relations Act; by
collective agreements with bargaining agents; and in this
instance, by practice that is parallel to the professional norms
governing counsel employed in the Public Service of Canada. Under
the terms of this framework employees have the right to raise
complaints and follow grievance procedures up to and including
bringing matters before the Public Service Staff Relations Board.
Individuals also have the right to seek redress through the
courts.
As the employer of record at the House, the Board of Internal
Economy is always mindful of its responsibilities in dealing with
employee issues generally or, in certain circumstances, with the
cases of individual employees. As the chair of the board, I have
a particular responsibility to uphold the integrity of the staff
relations system and to allow the procedures that have been set
in motion to reach their conclusions unhampered.
Therefore, on a close examination of all the facts, I have
concluded that to interpose into the system of existing
safeguards, whether they be provided by the PSSRB or the courts,
ad hoc hearings by members of parliament in the Chamber or in
committee is in my view to compromise the integrity of the labour
relations framework that was created by decision of parliament.
Finally, a word about the need for increasing resources in the
Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel. As previous
speakers have indicated, these matters are basic administrative
issues and, as such, must be dealt with by the Board of Internal
Economy.
I specifically draw to your attention the ruling given on
October 23, 1997, with regard to a similar question of privilege
raised by the hon. member for Sarnia—Lambton. My predecessor,
Mr. Speaker Parent, stated at page 1,003 of Debates the
following:
When dealing with similar questions, my predecessors have
repeatedly indicated that these should be brought to the
attention of the Board of Internal Economy and should not be
raised on the floor of the House as a point of order nor as a
question of privilege.
[Translation]
I take very seriously the ongoing concerns many hon. members
have regarding legislative counsel and I must reiterate that
these concerns have been brought to the attention of the Board of
Internal Economy and are being dealt with.
[English]
In summary, then, the Chair finds that there is no prima facie
case of privilege in this instance. I hope that I have been able
to throw some light on this complex series of unfortunate
circumstances while respecting the confidentiality of information
entrusted to me as a member of the Board of Internal Economy.
1515
In closing, I would entreat all hon. members to proceed with
caution when dealing with staff relations matters. If we find
that the procedures for remedy and redress are inadequate, then
by all means let us address what is lacking in the existing
safeguards and take corrective measures, but let us be wary of
situations where we are asked to step into the role of ad hoc
arbiters on individual cases.
I thank all hon. members for their contributions and assistance
on this important question.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACT
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-2, an
act to amend the Employment Insurance Act and the Employment
Insurance (Fishing) Regulations, be read the second time and
referred to a committee.
Mr. Joe McGuire (Egmont, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, before I
begin my remarks I would like to congratulate you on your
election to the chair. I believe you are the third elected
Speaker that we have had in the history of the country.
I would also like to take the opportunity to thank the voters of
Egmont for returning me for the fourth time in the last general
election. I believe we came into the House at the same time, Mr.
Speaker, so we must have been doing something right for our
constituents.
This is the fourth time the people of Egmont voted for me. I am
both humble and grateful that they bestowed the honour upon me.
The riding of Egmont extends from the new city of Summerside on
the eastern boundary all the way west to the North Cape. With
the exception of the aerospace industry in Summerside, most of
the industries in the riding of Egmont are seasonal in nature.
It is a very important fishing area of Atlantic Canada, with 12
small craft harbours in existence and a very lucrative lobster
industry. Farming is a very important part of the economy of my
riding with exceptional potato producing areas and dairy and
swine industries. Forestry plays a smaller but vital role.
Tourism is an ever growing part of the economy of Egmont. The
construction industry also plays a vital role in the riding.
The unemployment insurance program is a vital program for the
people of my riding because most of the industries are seasonal
in nature. They must have this program in order to survive.
As I stated earlier, I have been here 12 years and I have seen
the evolution of this file, the EI-UI debate, through the
previous Conservative government and our own EI bill. Now, as a
newly appointed member of the HRD standing committee, I will be
playing a closer role with the program to see that it becomes a
more responsive program for the people of Canada.
I heard people say how unfortunate it was to have time
allocation invoked to get the bill through the House, even after
we have gone through the last two federal elections with EI being
one of the more prominent issues in the election debates. Both
times the people of Canada have returned this government. They
must be supporting our concept of employment insurance much
better than the proposals that were set forth by the
Conservatives, the Alliance, the Bloc Quebecois or the NDP
governments.
Maritimers have also heard criticism that perhaps Atlantic
Canadians should go to where the jobs are. The most mobile
people in Canada are the people from Atlantic Canada. If we were
to go to the oil fields of Alberta, for example, we would find
that most of the workers there are maritimers. If we were to go
to Fort McMurray, we would see that over half the population of
that city comes from Newfoundland and other parts of Atlantic
Canada.
We always respond to where the jobs and have done so since
Confederation, whether it was out immigration to the Boston
states as we call them, or to Toronto when there were job
opportunities, or to Vancouver when there were job opportunities
or to Alberta where there are job opportunities now.
I know people who work the seasonal industries in my province.
In the fishing industry, for example, workers fish during the
spring and summer. They go to Alberta to work the rest of the
year. Then, they return to Atlantic Canada to go back to the
jobs where they grew up as sons of fishermen, hoping one day to
replace their parents in the fishing industry.
1520
Critics of the government claim that the contents of Bill C-2
represent backtracking on the reforms introduced in 1996.
Nothing could be further from the truth. The government promised
that if a monitoring process indicated that the changes were not
producing the desired results, then legislation would be changed.
Today this is what we are doing. We have found that the bill, as
passed by the House a number of years ago, has a number of flaws
in it. We are moving to correct those flaws.
It was generally agreed during the early days of this government
that the unemployment insurance scheme needed to be replaced. It
did not respond to the new economy in the 21st century. After
much consultation with Canadians and despite the outraged cries
of the opposition, some of whom did not want an EI program at all
and others who wanted a guaranteed annual income, the government
brought in a program to replace the old regime with the
employment insurance program.
The new plan was designed to be sustainable, to be fairer, to
encourage work, to reduce dependence on benefits, to assist those
most in need and to help workers get back to work and stay at
work. The program was implemented with the knowledge that being
new it would not necessarily be perfect. We knew that with time
we would likely identify areas requiring improvement. The
legislation allowed for a period of continuous monitoring and
assessment of the program to measure its impact on people,
communities and the economy.
This is not the first time that adjustments to the EI regime
have proven necessary. The government acted quickly in 1997 to
launch a small weeks project in order to correct a disincentive
for some people to work weeks with low earnings.
As the member for the area who identified the weakness, I knew
that potato
grading companies could not find workers. If people came into
the potato warehouses for one, two or three days during the week,
their benefits would be cut in half by their response to that call to
go to work. This obviously was a disincentive to get people to
work. We immediately moved to correct that.
Our studies and discussions with Canadians have shown us that
many parts of the EI program are working well. There are some
provisions that have proven ineffective, particularly toward
seasonal workers. We have always had and we will always have
seasonal industries. These industries are vital to our economic
well-being.
On Prince Edward Island, in Prince county alone, 65% of the
workforce works less than a 12 month period in one year. I take
offence with anyone who suggests that these changes will simply
make it profitable for industries to gear up for a short season.
I would like to comment that the seasonal businesses which are
profitable, when they have such a short window of opportunity,
are very fortunate.
It should be noted that seasonality is determined by a much
higher power. If mother nature did not co-operate these
businesses could no longer be profitable and the basic existence
of many of them would be put into jeopardy.
As for the employees, if the EI program was not in place what
would they do to support their families without an income? We
are talking about the reality of seasonal workers across Canada,
not just in Atlantic Canada. Because these industries by
definition employ people for only part of the year, we must
always remain watchful to ensure that our economic and social
programs do not exclude these people from living and working.
While EI aims at helping all unemployed workers, we must also
recognize that some groups, such as seasonal workers, have
particular needs and the program has special features built in to
benefit seasonal workers across the country.
The hours based system, for example, takes into account the fact
that seasonal work often involves long hours of work per week. It
also identifies a sector of the workforce, even with part time
work over the full year, that can now qualify. For example, an
employee who works in a seasonal job can accumulate hours in
smaller numbers in the pre and post season in order to qualify
for benefits which previously he or she was not entitled to.
As I have mentioned, one of the intentions of the EI program is
to reduce dependence on benefits by all Canadian workers,
including seasonal workers. The so-called intensity rule was
therefore introduced to discourage use of EI benefits by reducing
the benefit rate of frequent claimants.
1525
The unavoidable fact is that many seasonal workers have no
choice but to resort to EI benefits. There simply are not enough
job opportunities available to them in the off season. That is
why Bill C-2 proposes removal of the intensity rule. This
translates into a maximum of $988 for a 26 week period and $1,710
for a maximum 45 week claim in the pockets of Canadians. If
there was a maximum claim of 26 weeks, they would only get $40
more a week when the intensity rule is dropped. It may not seem
like a very large amount of money, but for someone making $200 a
week this represents a very large portion of that person's
income.
I encourage all members to support this program and get these
measures through as quickly as possible for the benefit of all
seasonal workers in Canada.
[Translation]
Ms. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, this bill is
shameful. I admit that it brings slight improvements to the
so-called reform we began talking about in 1994. Through this
reform, the unemployment insurance plan, which actually needed to
be reviewed but not transformed nor diminished, has in fact
become a plan whereby the government gets richer but people in
need get poorer.
This bill, not the one we have now but the one which became the
so-called unemployment insurance reform act, was renamed
employment insurance plan without any consideration for what is
actually going on.
I admit that the unemployment rate has dropped, but if it has
gone down, it is largely because the Canadian economy has been
pulled along by the American economy.
However, the unemployed who continued to suffer from not being
able to find a decent or permanent job have been badly hurt by
the new employment insurance plan.
The public must realize that the government is introducing in
the House a bill proposing slight improvements by reducing cuts
which should never have occurred and which total around 8% of
benefits paid.
What is the government really aiming at through these slight
improvements? It wants to gain full control over the fund, which
contains a surplus of $36 billion to $38 billion—we will know the
exact amount soon—taken from the incomes of workers and
businesses.
Again, these contributions are paid up to a maximum of $39,000
of gains earned by workers and up to $39,000 paid by businesses.
Beyond that limit, there are no contributions to employment
insurance. This means that the $37-$38 billion, which went in
full to eliminating the deficit, was paid for by low and middle
income people, but mostly by small and medium size businesses.
1530
They were paid mostly by these people. Higher wage earners pay a
smaller percentage of their income in EI premiums, as do
capital intensive businesses, which pay their employees high
wages.
The government should take over, push the commission aside and
decide on its own—that is how it was supposed to be—what the
level of the premiums should be. This is some very bad news that
will only make people more cynical.
To make it look like the money will really be used for specific
purposes, EI or Deductions for EI purposes is written on
paycheques.
Ever since employment insurance has been in effect, the number
of eligible recipients has decreased significantly, almost by
half, but what is even worse is that the hardest hit were young
people.
I have heard members make eloquent statements in this House to
the effect that young Canadians need jobs. Yes, absolutely.
However, the EI system is designed to ensure that, between jobs,
no one has to go on welfare or take just any job because they
need money. That is no way for young people to start building a
future for themselves.
This bill will bring the benefits of seasonal workers back to
the same level as those of all unemployed. This is good news. It
was necessary. We strongly opposed this penalty imposed on
seasonal workers, which was part of the employment insurance
reform, but we also know that this was not a coincidence and that
the government refused to listen not only to those affected but
also to those who worked with the seasonal workers in those
regions.
As members of the Standing Committee on Human Resources
Development, we knew that those in charge of unemployment
insurance were targeting seasonal workers. They thought that by
penalizing them they would force them to relocate.
Not all workers in Newfoundland are prepared to relocate. I
heard many men and women say that they wanted to raise their
children with dignity on their own land. What those at the
highest levels wanted was to force these people to move away and
look for work in regions where work was available.
This bill proposes modest improvements regarding the employment
insurance eligibility of women about to give birth, but there are
huge flaws in this system.
I am sorry to say that the fundamental problem for seasonal
workers is not that their benefits declined from 55% to 50% of
their salary, which is serious; it is the reduction in the number
of benefit weeks, which creates a 4-5-6 or 7-week gap, as they
call it in that region, when they do not have any income at all.
It is the reduction in the number of weeks that penalized
seasonal workers most, and this bill does nothing about that.
1535
As for pregnant women who want to draw on the plan, was the
required number of work weeks brought back to a decent level? No,
not at all. The plan, which has been lowered to 600 hours, still
has this requirement, which totally excludes many women, not to
speak of self-employed women.
This bill, which provides for slight improvements, has huge
gaps. In particular, it allows the government to lay its hands on
money that is not its own.
The government should at least recognize that it is indebted to
the people and state that it will put this money at the workers'
disposal if they ever need it because of a recession. What we
are proposing is a true reform.
[English]
Mr. Loyola Hearn (St. John's West, PC): Mr. Speaker, it
is certainly a pleasure to be able to say a few words on the
bill, which certainly affects rural areas more than the more
lucrative urban areas, and perhaps areas like Atlantic Canada and
parts of Quebec more than any other area of the country.
There are a few changes in the bill that are looked upon as
being positive, one of them being the throwing out of what we
call the intensity rule and reverting to letting people who draw
employment insurance draw 55% of their regular wage. That in
itself is a bit deceptive and I will comment on that.
The ability for family members to get back into the workplace
after staying off because of the birth of children without having
to be looked upon as new entrants certainly is positive. The
minor changes to the clawback arrangements will also benefit some
of those at the higher end.
However, the people who are affected most by employment
insurance are the ones who receive no reprieve at all from the
new legislation.
There are three issues that should have been addressed in the
bill and have not been addressed. The first issue is what we
call the divisor rule. It is bad enough to see a person who is
generally living and working in an area where unemployment is
meagre and quite often where the wage is low having to resort to
drawing employment insurance knowing that he or she will start
with only 55% of what he or she normally makes.
If the intensity rule had not been changed, people would have
drawn less as each year went by. However, besides drawing just
55%, they find their week's work is not what is divided into the
total income. The number of weeks is, as we say, exaggerated.
The divisor rule means that for somebody who obtains 12 weeks or 420
hours, when the amount of money that person should receive is
factored in, the total income is divided by 14. This means the
individual is getting much less than the 55%, which appears on
the surface. That rule is completely unfair and should have been
eliminated.
The second concern is the 420 hour minimum in areas of high
unemployment and the 520 hour minimum in areas of low
unemployment.
1540
There are pockets in the country that depend entirely on
seasonal employment. Occasionally these people do relatively
well. There may be an exceptionally good fishery, a good
construction season, or a good year in forestry. That is the
exception lately rather than the rule, for a number of reasons.
The mismanagement of the fishery, and perhaps we could say the
mismanagement of our forestry resources to some extent, has led
to very meagre employment. The lack of concern for the
processing end of our fishery means that we are seeing a lot of
our resource going out of our provinces and out of our country in
a non-processed or semi-processed state.
This means there is less work for the people involved. This
past year in Newfoundland, for example, the main source of work
in the various fish plants was processing crab, which has
replaced cod as the most lucrative species now caught and
processed in our province. However this past year saw a 15% to
20% cut across the board in relation to quotas, which meant 20%
less work for people working in our fish plants.
Along with that the markets this past year, in particular the
Japanese market, dictated that the commodity they wanted was crab
sections rather than the extruded crab meat, the main product
exported over the last x number of years. Sending the
crab out in sections meant less work for the people who worked in
our plants. Mechanization has also eliminated a number of jobs.
Consequently we saw people who worked in our fish plants receive
much less work this year than previously, not because of their
fault but because of resource, market demands and mechanization,
which is attributable to the employers.
Teachers have also been affected. Because of what is happening
in our education system with consolidation and tightening up of belts
economically, we see a lot of substitute teachers who no longer
even get work enough to qualify for employment insurance.
There are times in certain parts of the country where conditions
are completely outside the control of the individuals involved.
It is practically impossible for the average seasonal worker to
obtain enough employment to qualify for employment insurance.
I am certainly not advocating that we return to the old 10-52
method: if they obtained 10 weeks of work and a few hours each
week they could qualify to draw employment insurance for the rest
of the year. I do not think anyone is advocating that, but the
pendulum has swung too far.
During the election campaign the Prime Minister apologized to
working people in New Brunswick, especially seasonal workers, for
a mistake that was made some years ago when new employment
insurance regulations were brought in. Instead of changing them
last fall before the election, he ran the election promising to
make the changes. Now we have the bill before the House. The
changes that were brought in last fall are still the same ones.
Despite the fact that many people expressed concern during the
election, there have been a few minor amendments, but the real
changes that would affect people in the areas where they are
hurting most have not been made.
The hours required are too stringent in certain parts of the
country during periods when there are downturns. In the
construction industry, for example, because of lack of input from
federal and provincial governments into the great infrastructure
agreements we hear about, the hours fail to materialize or the
money is spread so thinly that many smaller regions cannot avail
themselves of it.
1545
In terms of federal-provincial-municipal cost sharing, most small
municipalities, because of the financial situations they face,
cannot avail themselves of the infrastructure agreements. They
cannot come up with their share of the total input.
These areas are hit extremely hard. There should be provision
in the new legislation to modify the regulations during times
when working conditions, lack of resources or whatever make it
impossible for seasonal workers in those areas to obtain enough
employment to qualify for employment insurance.
Another concern is the length of time. We are not advocating
the 10-52, but we are finding that as people continue to draw
employment insurance, as they always will in the areas with
seasonal employment, it is getting to the point where they find
themselves with absolutely no income during the periods of the
year when it is needed most. Quite often the employment
insurance benefits end in March or April during times when
heating costs are extremely high and when the cost of living in
rural areas is extremely high.
These issues should be addressed in the new legislation. I
certainly hope that the minister takes them into account as she
reviews and hopefully provides us with amendments that we can all
pass.
Ms. Judy Sgro (York West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I take this
opportunity to congratulate you on your new position. I am sure
you will serve the House well, and I hope you enjoy it. I also
thank the constituents of York West, my family and staff for
their support in the November 27 election. I am glad to be back
and very pleased to speak in favour of the bill today.
We on this side of the House know how important the EI system is
to Canadians. That is why we feel really good about
reintroducing the bill that was presented and debated in the
House last fall. I had an opportunity to be a part of that.
Canadians showed us in the last election that they agreed with
the direction we are taking. We also know how important it is
that we in government monitor EI and make sure that it continues
to do what it was meant to do: to help those who are out of work.
That is why I support Bill C-2.
The legislation is a result of the government's ongoing
monitoring of EI. It recognizes the need for EI to keep up to
date with the realities of the Canadian economy. The government
recognizes there were needs for changes in the bill.
About four years ago the government introduced major changes to
the old unemployment insurance program. At that time we wanted
to change a variety of things. We wanted to make the system
fairer, reduce dependency, lower program costs, and emphasize
active employment measures that would help get Canadians back to
work.
The basic objective of that reform was to produce a system of
employment insurance that would support Canadians in times when
they were without work, but that would also encourage and support
them to get back into the workforce as soon and as effectively as
possible.
By and large that reform process worked very well. Measures
like the new hours based eligibility system opened up access to
EI for workers who had not previously qualified, such as multiple
job holders who may be working a few hours for several employers.
Many women who are employed in those part time jobs now qualify
for EI if they need it.
At the same time new partnerships have been formed with other
levels of government and with the private sector to help people
prepare for and find jobs. The EI system was strengthened and
improved by the reform. The economy has also improved since that
time. On a national basis we are experiencing very positive
economic circumstances. The national unemployment rate is down.
More people are working in Canada than ever before.
Generally speaking, Canadians have never been more prosperous
and our economic development has never been more robust. However
not all Canadians have benefited from this renewed prosperity.
Some regions of the country continue to have high unemployment
rates.
Seasonal workers, in particular, report that they continue to
have difficulty finding work in their off season in their
community. Many of these seasonal workers are being affected by
one of the measures introduced with the EI bill in 1996, the
so-called intensity rule.
1550
The intensity rule was originally put in place to reduce
dependency on EI and to encourage repeat claimants to find work.
Unfortunately the intensity rule reduces the EI benefit rate for
repeat claimants. The rate goes down by one percentage point for
every 20 weeks of regular benefits collected in the past five
years. The impact can reduce benefits paid to repeat claimants
from the normal level of 55% to 50%.
The intensity rule was brought in because Canadians were
concerned about people becoming too dependent on the employment
insurance program. However, it turns out that the intensity rule
is achieving little in terms of reducing dependency and
increasing work effort. Our research has found that the
intensity rule has not curtailed repeated EI use, particularly in
areas where there are few job opportunities.
Despite tremendous employment gains in many parts of the
country, there is still high unemployment in some regions and
seasonal workers find it difficult to find off season jobs. There
is a growing concern that the intensity rule has become more of a
penalty on seasonal workers instead of an incentive to find work
as originally intended. This is a situation that the government
recognizes needs to be fixed.
How do we fix it? We eliminate the intensity rule as proposed
in Bill C-2. It will remove the penalty imposed on Canadians
who happen to live in areas with very limited opportunities for
work.
Who will benefit? Canadians will benefit in every province
and territory. We have heard about the benefits that it will
bring to Atlantic Canada, and this is good news. However, it is
also important to remember that claimants from Atlantic Canada
account for less than 20% of the EI claims in any given year.
This will help people everywhere in Canada.
In reality, seasonal employment is a fact of life all across
Canada and there are many regions where alternative employment is
difficult to find. We can ask construction workers in central
Canada how they feel about this, or workers in the forest
products industries in the western part of Canada, or the many
seasonal workers in Quebec or the north. In truth, removing the
intensity rule will provide economic benefits that will be
welcomed throughout the country.
At the same time, we know that EI is only part of the solution.
We will continue to work hard with provinces and territories and
with businesses and community leaders to stimulate local
economies because the best solution to unemployment is
employment.
I will proudly vote for the legislation and I urge all of my
colleagues in the House to do the same.
[Translation]
Ms. Diane Bourgeois (Terrebonne—Blainville, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
it is not only as the Bloc Quebecois critic for the status of
women that I rise this afternoon in the House, but also as a
woman who has paid employment insurance premiums all her life and
who has never been able to get any benefits.
During my maiden speech in the House, reacting to the throne
speech, I said that the Liberal government does not care about
the realities and the hardships of Canadians and Quebecers.
I would again like to quote a sentence that caught my attention
when Her Excellency, the Governor General of Canada, the
Honourable Adrienne Clarkson, read the throne speech, where the
intention of the Liberal government to “secure a higher quality
of life for all Canadians” is expressed.
The first real evidence of this true intention to secure a
higher quality of life was the minister's reform proposing a plan
that is completely out of sync with the new social and economic
realities of women living in Canada as well as in Quebec.
The minister knows very well that the first persons to be
penalized by her new reform are the women, more than 70% of whom
have precarious jobs and frequently rely on employment insurance
because they cannot find a stable and well paid job.
1555
Too often, these women are the sole support of a single parent
family. They do not have a stable job, but must nonetheless
support their children, feed them, clothe them and give them a
good education, and they would certainly have wished for a little
more compassion from the minister.
There are also some sections of the Employment Insurance Act
that discriminate against women. Let me explain.
To be eligible for maternity or parental benefits, one needs 600
hours of work, while someone working in a high unemployment area
can be eligible for EI benefits with only 420 hours of work.
A woman living in the same area would need 600 hours to be
eligible for maternity benefits. Previously, the requirement was
for 300 hours or 20 hours spread over 15 weeks.
Moreover, the new eligibility criteria for parental leave are
unfair to women who were supposed to give birth after January 1
and asked for parental leave but were unfortunate enough to have
their child before that date. They cannot ask for the 35 week
parental leave because there is no flexibility in the act. It is
not their fault if they had their child at the beginning of
December even though they were not expected to give birth until
January 15.
What happens then? Did the government think about the adverse
effects of this situation for these women and their families? Did
the government not think that these women were also hoping to
benefit from the new measures, however limited they may be, just
like other women? What about the thousands of self-employed
workers who were also forgotten?
According to Statistics Canada, self-employed workers account
for 18% to 20% of the total workforce. The monitoring and
assessment report confirms that this category of workers is
experiencing strong growth.
Yet, these workers are still excluded from the employment
insurance plan. We also know that women account for over 40% of
these self-employed workers. Almost one worker in five is not
covered by the new employment insurance plan merely because of
the nature of his or her work, and that group is constantly
growing in Canada.
Earlier, I said that some workers were forgotten, excluded from
the act. There is no question that the Liberal government and the
Minister of Human Resources Development lack vision and are not
very familiar with the realities of the labour market.
Yet, in an HRDC release dated February 12, 1998, the then
Minister of Human Resources Development and current Minister for
International Trade said that one of the objectives of the
employment insurance reform was to adapt the plan to the new
realities of the labour market. The following is an excerpt from
that release:
The objectives of the employment insurance reform were to reduce
costs and modernize the plan to better reflect the social and
economic realities facing all Canadians.
This is not what is happening, because self-employment is
also part of the new social and economic realities.
The Liberal government and the minister are also acting in bad
faith. During the last election campaign, the Prime Minister
himself said the following during an interview given to the
Canadian Press:
The Prime Minister was referring to the cuts made by his
government to the employment insurance plan.
1600
Even Minister Coderre said “After a majority Liberal government
is elected, we are going to re-establish the process and ensure
that the changes are appropriate and respond in large part to the
realities and needs of the population”.
Employment insurance has become a privilege for the women of
Quebec and of Canada. This is why the Bloc Quebecois concludes
that employment insurance reform has been a double, nay, a
triple, failure.
With a view to shouldering greater responsibility for the
disadvantaged, a fair and equitable distribution of the billions
of dollars in the employment insurance fund in the hands of the
Liberal government, with a view to taking into consideration the
endlessly increasing numbers of people living below the poverty
line, with a view to helping poor families in desperate and
terribly urgent need, with a view to providing the children of
Quebec and of Canada with three meals a day, the Bloc Quebecois
would have preferred the government to have presented two
separate bills.
The first of these would focus on dealing with the urgent
situations to which I have referred, like the mothers of
premature babies who cannot take advantage of the new provisions.
The second would concentrate on administration of the employment
insurance fund. This approach would provide a prompt response to
the needs of the forgotten members of society, while leaving the
more technical matters to be debated in committee.
In its desire to share the wealth, and in its great magnanimity,
the government prefers to gets its hands immediately on the huge
surplus in the fund, and to forget about the people, to forget
about all its fine promises, to forget about the dire living
conditions into which it is forcing families in need in Quebec
and in the rest of Canada.
I again call upon the government on behalf of my colleagues in
the Bloc Quebecois for justice and social equity. Rest assured
that the Bloc Quebecois is still prepared to pass improvements to
the program quickly, separate from the debate on administration
of the fund.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): I would like to remind my
colleagues, especially the new members, that they should not
refer to other members in the House by their names. Ministers
should be referred to by their departments and other members by
the names of their ridings.
[English]
Mr. John McKay (Scarborough East, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
would be remiss if I did not congratulate you on your
appointment. I hope that you enjoy your appointment and that you
find these speeches utterly fascinating.
I am somewhat reluctant to get into this subject because I am
from Toronto. Toronto is of course the place that everyone loves
to hate. Indeed, there are times when my colleagues,
particularly those from the maritimes, express some sentiments that,
shall we say, may not be Toronto-friendly.
Let me take a few moments to discuss the goals of EI and how
changes in the bill support those goals.
As the House knows, the unemployment insurance act was first
designed in 1940 as a safety net and as an income support for
Canadians temporarily out of work. Since then it has evolved. It
has allowed workers and their families to remain attached to the
labour market, staving off, in many cases, a period of
dislocation and financial worry.
Over the years, it has changed dramatically. Our employment
insurance system has become a far more sophisticated entity as it
attempts to respond to market realities. Some of the changes to
EI actually resulted in market distortions and had to be
addressed. In 1996 we updated the system to better reflect
market realities.
The objectives of our EI reform were to make the system fair,
reduce dependency, help low income families, ensure the program
was sustainable, encourage active employment and reduce market
distortions.
There were a number of bizarre situations wherein clearly it was
better to be on EI. We would therefore have the ironic situation
of EI creating unemployment rather than creating employment.
1605
Many of these goals have been achieved and are as important
today as they were in 1996. We promised Canadians that we would
carefully monitor and assess the changes to see if they were
working as intended. In fact that is in the legislation. We
always promised to make adjustments as needed, and the time has
arrived. Since the reform it is clear that many elements such as
the divisor rule and the family supplement are working well and
that other parts of the program need some fine tuning.
We listened carefully to the concerns of Canadians about the EI
program. In fact, as other members have pointed out, this was an
election issue during the last two or three elections. Members
such as the hon. member for Fredericton have articulated concerns
here and elsewhere that are reflected in the bill. Canadians have
told us about some of their difficulties with some elements of
EI. Some elements need adjustment to ensure the effectiveness of
the program. We have responded with concrete and progressive
changes that reflect today's economic realities.
The clawback was originally implemented to discourage high
income claimants from claiming benefits year after year. The
member for Mississauga West repeatedly pointed out in the House
and elsewhere that the threshold was far too low. Once the bill
is passed it will raise the net income level at which clawback
applies for repeat claimants from $39,000 to $48,750. In future
only higher income Canadians will face repayment.
Middle income workers who need to claim EI will have more money
to spend because we are raising the income threshold at which
clawback begins. The vast majority of middle income earners have
contributed to the system all of their lives without ever drawing
benefits. Yet under the current system, we claw back the very
first time an individual makes a claim. This is using a
sledgehammer to kill a fly. By definition first time claimants
are not dependent on EI. They are not the people who are using
EI as an income supplement.
We are also removing the clawback for those collecting special
benefits. Pregnancy or illness should not affect one's
entitlement. Special benefits are designed for Canadians who are
too sick to work and for those who stay at home to care for a
newborn or an adopted child. These are not the people using EI
as an annual income supplement and there is certainly no reason
to penalize new parents or people who are too sick to work.
By changing the clawback provision we will be helping three
broad groups of Canadians. First, middle income groups will
benefit primarily due to the change in the threshold. Second,
Canadians receiving special benefits will no longer have to repay
any of those benefits. Third, first time claimants will be
exempt from benefit repayment.
In addition the bill would eliminate the intensity rule. The
rule provided that the more frequent a claim, the greater the
reduction in the percentage benefit to which one was entitled.
The rule has proven to be ineffective with the unintended
consequence of being punitive. The elimination of this rule
should be of the greatest benefit to seasonal workers.
Simultaneously it is hoped that the raising of the clawback and
the elimination of the intensity rule will not mean a return to
business as usual. Employment insurance cannot be a substitute
for a job. It cannot make it impossible for a low wage employer
to set up shop in a region. A prospective employer should not
find himself or herself competing with EI. Otherwise it becomes
self-defeating.
We should look at the reduction in EI premiums from $3.07 to
$2.25. Every 10 cents costs the federal treasury $700 million,
cumulatively a $6.4 billion tax reduction.
Some say that the government has eliminated the deficit and is
now paying off the national debt on the backs of the workers. It
is true that EI is going into general revenues and for good
reason. There is no separate bank account for EI when times get
tough, which they will sooner or later. All taxpayers of Canada,
whether they are employers or employees, will be obligated to
unemployed workers. There is no better guarantor than the
Government of Canada.
1610
Canadians in every province and territory will benefit from the
improvements to the Employment Insurance Act. The changes are in
keeping with the values that Canadians hold dear, values like
taking care of each other and looking out for one another in
times of need.
When we designed the employment insurance system, we wanted to
do more than just merely insure people's wages. We wanted to get
them back to work. However a concern echoed by many Canadians is
that the design that we have can be improved.
The bill is about ensuring that the system continues to work
well and is responsive to those who are most in need. It is
about ensuring that the system responds to the needs and
realities of working people. The bottom line is that EI must be
there for Canadians. It must be there for those people who have
contributed and who now need our help.
Taken together, the changes to the intensity rule and the
clawback will improve our ability to address the original goals
of EI, which were to ensure fairness, to help people return to
work quickly and to reduce dependency without penalizing those
most in need.
The simple fact is that our employment insurance reforms were in
the right direction and these reforms are even more in the right
direction. Employment insurance is working but it will always be
a work in progress.
I would like to specifically acknowledge the members for
Fredericton and Mississauga West, who in our caucus repeatedly
brought forward these issues. I congratulate the relevant
ministers on their willingness to be responsive to members of
caucus and indeed members of the House.
That is why I will be voting for the bill and I would encourage
other members to do so as well.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphan Tremblay (Lac-Saint-Jean—Saguenay, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, I am very excited to rise today for two reasons, one
being that it is the first opportunity I have to speak in the
House since I was re-elected. The other reason has to do with the
relevance and importance of the employment insurance issue to my
region.
I rise not only as a parliamentarian, but also as a former
bush pilot who has had to rely on employment insurance in the
past. I will put the problem in context.
What we have experienced
in the Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean area since last July has to do
with the fact that, under the act, employment insurance zones
have to be reviewed every five years. I did not lose any time in
making representations, saying that the status quo had to be
maintained, which meant that people had to work a minimum of 420
hours to be eligible for 33 weeks of benefits. I was not the only
one thinking this way, since other parliamentary colleagues
shared that opinion.
In my region, Human Resources Development Canada, through its economist,
recommended to the minister that the status quo be maintained.
Why? Not just for the sake of it, but rather because it matched the
reality of our region.
To our surprise, when the HRDC data were made public on July 1,
it was not 420 hours any more that people needed to work to
qualify for 33 weeks of benefits but rather 525 hours, and for
how many weeks?
Mr. Gérard Asselin: Twenty-one weeks.
Mr. Stéphan Tremblay: My colleague from Charlevoix, who faces
the same situation in his riding, knows it is for 21 weeks.
This might seems like a very innocent series of figures for
members here in the House, but for many families, many workers
and many employers, these figures can have major implications.
I have tried to determine the loss of potential revenue for my
region, statistically, as far as the money and the premiums we
pay are concerned. As a good member of parliament, I thought “I
will go get this information”. I contacted the HRDC
economist. Who did he refer me to? To the department's chief
actuary in Ottawa, who came to the riding to explain why this
unexpected change was made, in summer when everybody was on
holidays.
Much to my disappointment, we did not get any appropriate
answer. The officials from the department led us to believe that
it was the employability figures that explained the new ways of
doing things. In short, it was a completely unsatisfactory
argument.
1615
Of course, people protested, not only in my riding but in the
riding of my colleague from Charlevoix. They were also protests
from the north shore, the Lower St. Lawrence and the Gaspé
Peninsula, where the same situation prevailed. In view of the flurry
of protests, but also, probably and unfortunately, because there
was a general election in the offing, the minister concluded that
transitional measures were necessary.
Why did we need transitional measures? So that our workers could
get used to it. I completely disagree with the idea that workers
have to get used to poverty. This is totally unacceptable to me.
Nobody can get used to poverty and we will see more of it with
this legislation and the new regional realities.
I was talking with the minister and she told me “Stéphan, the
solution is not unemployment but employment”. I totally agree. I
too believe that employment is the solution.
In this country, in certain sectors, as we can see in my region
or in my colleague's region, the reality and the economic
structure are such that employment insurance is a tool of
development, since it makes up for deficiencies related to our
economic structure.
In the tourism industry, for example, summer is the high season.
Unfortunately, the season is rather short. Some would say that
the season should be extended. We are working on it. Serge
Plourde, the president of the Association touristique régionale,
was telling me that the government must absolutely understand
that keeping these new regulations, which make employment
insurance less and less accessible, will have major impacts on
the tourism industry. People are unable to qualify or to make
ends meet.
Come February, when no more income is coming in and you do not
qualify for social assistance because you own a house or a car,
what are you supposed to live on? Air? That is what is going to
happen. According to the tourism industry, this will result in an
increase in employee turnover, which will have a serious impact
on a fast expanding industry that is trying to extend the season,
as many would like it to do.
The same is true in agriculture and the forestry industry. There
is no way to prevent the ground from freezing. It is
unfortunate, but that is the way it is. I am a former bush
pilot, and in the bush, we land on water. When the lakes freeze,
the season is dead. That is the way it is.
The government has to take its role seriously in committee. The
Secretary of State for Amateur Sport mentioned this in the
election. Right off, the government said it was prepared to
further relax its bill, to use the words of the secretary of
state, “if well reasoned and justified arguments are brought
forward”.
If my fellow citizens are given the opportunity to explain in
committee, I promise that they will provide well reasoned and
justified arguments.
In the same vein, the Secretary of State for Amateur Sport made
a personal commitment to apply corrective measures to the
Employment Insurance Act. He said, moreover:
I think this is what we have here.
—we will reinstate the process and make sure that the changes
are effective and meet the needs, for the most part, of the
people of the Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean and Canadians as a
whole...I have made a commitment to change the law and we will
see to it.
The Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean, that is my home. I would be
prepared, perhaps, to forgive a government that imposed time
allocation today in the context of this very important debate if
it were responsible and in committee the public had the
opportunity to speak and present well reasoned and justified
arguments.
What I find hard to justify is that on July 1, 2000 the
government introduced a new measure that for the people at home
brings big changes. Why did the government want to cut
employment insurance? It is all the harder to comprehend given
that the fund's coffers are overflowing. We are not in difficult
economic times. We will be, in the Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean
region, because this will have phenomenal consequences, not only
for the workers, but for the employers as well.
1620
During the election campaign, business people were telling me
“Stéphan, the government must absolutely understand this
reality, because there are going to be serious economic
consequences”.
I have a lot of sympathy for people who will have to live on a
shoestring this winter, but I also have sympathy for employers
who will have difficulty keeping their employees. If the
government wants very economic arguments, we will give some.
I have been very interested in the issue of globalization for
several years. This issue is getting more and more important, and
I am very pleased. I think this, as well as our role as
parliamentarians in the House, might be the subject of another
debate. What must we do in the context of globalization?
I am not against globalization. I am against certain forms of
globalization, and I will mention one. In its strategy for
employment, the Organization for Economic Co-operation and
Development said:
To increase labour market flexibility in a number of countries,
it is essential to reduce the largesse of compensation under
unemployment and other social benefits, and to limit access to
these programs.
It also states:
Canada is the only country that seems to have applied the
recommendations made during the first series of reviews.
What is governing us? Is it consistent and sensible economic
strategies or a bunch of bureaucrats in international
organizations who make recommendations on employment that are
absolutely inadequate and totally out of touch with the reality
in our regions?
I hope we will be able to seriously debate this in committee.
* * *
[English]
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, there
have been consultations with all parties in the House through
their leaders and I believe you would find consent for the
following order governing the proceedings for the visit of the
Prime Minister of the United Kingdom on February 22:
That, notwithstanding any Standing or Special Order, the House
shall meet on Thursday, February 22, 2001 at 2 p.m. and the order
of business shall be the same as on a Wednesday;
That the Address of the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, to
be delivered in the House Chamber on that day before Members of
the Senate and of the House of Commons, together with all
introductory and related remarks, be printed as an appendix to
the House of Commons Debates for that day and form part of the
records of the House; and
That media recording and transmission of such address,
introductory and related remarks, be authorized pursuant to
established guidelines for such occasions.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): The House has heard the
terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt
the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Motion agreed to)
* * *
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACT
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-2, an
act to amend the Employment Insurance Act and the Employment
Insurance (Fishing) Regulations, be read the second time and
referred to a committee.
Mr. Bryon Wilfert (Oak Ridges, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
would like to congratulate you on your appointment to the chair.
It is my pleasure to speak on Bill C-2, particularly because the
changes to the employment insurance legislation will make a
tremendous difference in the lives of Canadian families.
As chair of the greater Toronto area caucus, I can vouch for the
fact that colleagues in our caucus have been enunciating the
issue for quite a while and have indicated our support for the
changes, particularly with regard to the intensity rule and the
clawback.
Overall we know our EI reforms are working well, but we also
know that we need to update the system to better meet the needs
of working families.
The vast majority of Canada's working families confront a broad
range of challenges that they cannot easily solve alone. Today
many mothers and fathers work outside the home and discussions
about child care are commonplace. There is no doubt that the
workforce has changed dramatically over the past few decades and
our employment insurance system must change with the changing
needs.
1625
When unemployment insurance was created in the 1940s most
employees were male. Today women make up nearly half the
workforce. In the 1940s most women stayed at home and cared for
their children. Today dual income couples make up about 40% of
the working population. It is a fact of modern life that both
parents working is now the norm and not the exception.
At the same time the struggle to meet both work and family
responsibilities is a top concern for Canadian men and women.
Forty per cent of Canadian workers report a high level of work
and family stress. This is significantly higher than just 10
years ago.
If we listen carefully to Canadians and their concerns about the
EI program, it would seem clear that we must find new ways to
make our system more responsive to the challenges facing today's
families.
The government recognizes that today's parents find it difficult
to balance the demands of caring for children and making a
living. For children to get the best start in life, parents need
the time and the resources to nurture them. This is why on
December 31, 2000, we enhanced the EI parental benefits to allow
a parent to stay at home with a newborn child for up to one year.
This is also why we proposed to support parents under the bill
by eliminating the clawback for Canadians collecting special
benefits under EI. Canadians use special benefits when they are
too sick to work or when they are at home to care for their
newborn or newly adopted children. We realize that the benefit
repayment system was unduly limiting the assistance Canadian
families could receive at a time when they needed the most help.
The clawback was designed to discourage high income earners from
collecting benefits year after year, not to discourage parents
from using maternity and parental benefits. We do not want to
penalize parents who stay home to spend more time with their
young children, or people who are too sick to work. Canadians
who collect special benefits will no longer have to repay any of
the benefits.
In addition, middle income Canadian workers will have more money
to spend on their families because we are moving to one
threshold, $48,750 of net income. The repayment will be no more
than 30% of their net income in excess of the threshold.
We are proposing to eliminate the intensity rule which reduces a
person's EI benefit rate by one percentage point for every 20
weeks of benefits he or she has collected in the previous five
years. Depending on the number of weeks of benefits paid in
previous years, a person's benefit rate would drop from the usual
55% to 54% to a minimum of 50%.
By eliminating the intensity rule we will help workers who have
to rely on EI more often than they would like because job
opportunities in their communities may be scarce. These workers
will no longer be penalized, which means they will have more
money for their families.
The rules will also be adjusted to make it easier for parents to
qualify for regular benefits after returning to the workforce
following an extended absence to care for young children. In
essence, the rules will make it easier for parents to qualify for
EI regular benefits if they lose their job during the difficult
period of transition into the labour market.
That is why we are extending the look back period for
re-entrants. Claimants who have received maternity and parental
benefits in the four years prior to the current look back period
will require the same number of hours as other clients to be
eligible for regular benefits. Combined with extended parental
benefits, these further changes are good news for new parents and
will give parents the choice of spending more time at home with
their children.
Finally, the EI premium rate has been reduced by 15 cents
to $2.25, putting more money into the pockets of Canadian
families. This change may seem small and insignificant, but it
is the seventh consecutive reduction and has translated into
billions of dollars in savings for employees and employers.
These amendments enhance a number of important initiatives the
government has put in place to help Canadian families.
1630
In earlier EI reform, we introduced the family supplement. With
the supplement, claimants from low income families with children
can receive up to 80% of their insured earnings. Nearly 200,000
Canadian families benefited from this measure in 1999-2000.
Another important initiative is the national child benefit, which
makes it possible for families to break away from poverty.
Providing more income benefits and services outside the welfare
system makes easier for families to support children while
remaining part of the workforce.
The bottom line is that easing financial pressures on Canadian
families may lead to better environments for their children, more
opportunities for parents and a better chance for the family to
improve its overall quality of life.
These amendments to the employment insurance program are good
news for Canada's hardworking families. They reflect our
government's strong commitment to build new opportunities for
Canadians that reward work and strengthen families. These
changes will let thousands of mothers and fathers help care for
their children during the critical first months of life. They
will alleviate a major source of economic pressure on working
families and they will put the country's policies more in line
with the realities facing today's families.
I support these amendments and ask the House to consider them.
[Translation]
Ms. Monique Guay (Laurentides, BQ): Mr. Speaker, before
getting into the heart of the matter, I would like to take a few
seconds to thank the constituents of Laurentides for having once
again put their trust in me.
For the third time in a row, the people of my riding have chosen
me as their representative in the House of Commons. I am
profoundly touched by this great vote of confidence. As I did
during my two previous terms of office, I will do everything in
my power to serve them as best I can. I promise to take all the
necessary steps to represent their interests in this House.
I will start fulfilling that promise right away because, as
usual, this government is once again trying to take us for a ride
with Bill C-2.
For many years now, the employment insurance issue has been a
priority for the Bloc Quebecois. It is normal because the EI
program helps people who are in need or who, periodically or for
conjunctural reasons, have to rely on it because they have no
income. We are talking mostly about self employed workers,
seasonal workers, workers in regions, young people and women.
The Bloc Quebecois has been fighting for years against the
federal government's plan to grab the surplus in the employment
insurance fund, a plan that has now become a reality with Bill
C-2.
Let us say it as it is: with Bill C-2, the federal government is
about to literally establish and legalize the misappropriation of
$30 billion in funds. This money does not belong to it. This $30
billion belong to the unemployed, workers and employers, period.
This fund was not created to save money and to create a surplus
in order to pay off the deficit and now the debt of the country.
With such a surplus in the employment insurance account, the
people of Quebec and Canada were expecting major changes to the
employment insurance plan. With Bill C-44, the predecessor of
Bill C-2, which was introduced just before the election was
called last fall, the Bloc quickly realized that such was not the
case. History is repeating itself with Bill C-2, which
contains only cosmetic changes. Bill C-2 is almost a carbon copy
of Bill C-44. There are some minor changes here and there, but
almost nothing to answer to the real needs of workers.
The Bloc Quebecois has not been the only party to denounce Bill
C-2. Advocacy groups for the workers and the unemployed also
denounced this bill. They think that the government is not trying
to resolve the real problems and that the changes proposed are
far from being enough. The main problem—eligibility for the
plan—remains unsolved.
In its arguments, the government is basically saying that Bill
C-2 is a major reform of employment insurance, because, based on
government estimates, it will cost $200 million this year, $450
million next year and $500 million in 2002-03.
1635
It is plain and simple hypocrisy. It is playing the people of
Quebec and Canada for fools, nothing else. Just imagine a
situation where I pick $100 directly out of your pockets but,
being a very generous person, I give you back $8. That is how
generous this government is. That is exactly what it wants to do
with this so-called employment insurance reform. Moreover, as I
said earlier, it is running away with the employment insurance
fund and its $30 billion, and the population and the Bloc
Quebecois should say thank you to the government? We say never.
More specifically, it means that, based on a $6 billion a year
surplus in the employment insurance fund, the government would
only give back 8% of the amount it picks each year from the pockets
of the unemployed, and we should be thankful for that?
Employment insurance has become a payroll tax, because the
government refuses to give back to the unemployed and the workers
what is owed to them and is continuing to accumulate surpluses at
their expense.
The government obviously does not feel for the unemployed and
those left behind in the employment insurance reform. The
measures contained in this bill do not adequately address the
problems caused by the plan, particularly as they relate to
seasonal and regional workers, young people, women and
self employed workers, and here is why.
To begin with, the government has clearly decided to ignore
self-employed workers, yet their numbers keep increasing on the
labour market. According to Statistics Canada, the percentage of
self-employed workers went up from 12% in 1976 to 18% in 1999, so
that nearly one worker in five is self employed. The EI
plan ignores these workers. It is as if they did not exist, while
there are more and more of them in the Canadian economy.
Let us talk about students now, our future, those who will forge
our society of tomorrow. Our young people must have access to
higher education if they are to satisfy the needs of the new
economy. Between the rhetoric of this government, which claims to
be very worried by our students' fate, and reality, there is a
world of difference. The EI legislation does not help all our
students to study, on the contrary.
As we all know, more and more students pay for their studies by
working part time, and full time during the summer. They pay
premiums without even being able to get any benefits under the
plan.
The last census in 1996 revealed that there were more than 2.8
million full time students. The 1999 control and evaluation
report states that nearly one million Canadians earned less than
$2,000, which entitled them to a refund. However, only 40% of
those applied for it, 42% of whom were under 25 years of age. In
other words, nearly 2.6 million students had to contribute to the
EI system while trying to pay for their studies.
The EI eligibility rules are a real orphan clause.
Young newcomers face more restrictions in applying for benefits.
Instead of a minimum of 300 hours, that is 15 hours a week for 20
weeks, they need 910 hours, which amounts to 35 hours a week for
26 weeks. It is utterly unacceptable.
On top of that, how can one explain that, with a plan that is
supposed to help those who pay premiums, benefits have dropped
28% between 1993 and 1999, and the number of people collecting
regular benefits has dropped 52.4%?
How can one explain that, in 2001, having a child is something
that should be penalized, according to the federal government?
For the government, having a child is something that should now
be penalized. To punish mothers, the federal government and the
Minister of Human Resources Development, who is a woman, have
decided that, to collect the maternity or parental benefits, 600
hours will soon be required. Whereas a worker in a region with
high unemployment will be entitled to benefits after 420 hours of
work, a woman in the same area will have to work at least 600
hours to collect maternity benefits. Up to now, 300 hours, or 15
hours a week during 20 weeks, were required. Where is the moral
sense of this government?
1640
Being a responsible political party that wants to meet the needs
of the unemployed and the workers, the Bloc Quebecois is prepared
to pass Bill C-2 quickly on one crucial condition, that it be
divided into two separate bills.
The first bill, as suggested by the Bloc Quebecois, would meet
the urgent needs of the workers not appropriately covered under
the current plan. Among other things, the Bloc Quebecois would
want the new bill to eliminate discrimination against younger
workers and newcomers on the labour market—910 hours to
qualify—to increase benefits from 55% to 60% of insurable
earnings, to level the playing field for seasonal workers and to
eliminate the waiting period.
The second bill would include long term measures to be debated
in committee. The Bloc Quebecois is in favour of an independent
employment insurance fund and coverage for the self employed.
In conclusion, if the bill is not divided, there is no way that
the Bloc Quebecois can support such a clear misappropriation of
$30 billion from the EI fund and a discriminatory bill that is
totally inconsistent with the needs of the unemployed and the
workers of Quebec and Canada.
[English]
Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am
very pleased to join in the debate with respect to the bill,
which is designed to improve our employment insurance program so
that it will be of more help to unemployed people. Like my
colleague from Oak Ridges who spoke earlier, I will focus my
attention on the parts of the bill that actually deal with
families.
I think you know, Mr. Speaker, that this government has focused
attention on children and families from when it was first elected
in 1993. In fact, in the depths of the budget cutting exercise
that we went through, new money was being flowed into prenatal
and post-natal programs and into support for children. In my own
riding for example, the family enrichment centre, which is now
the family resource centre, received considerable new funds in
those times, so the government has a record of supporting
children and strengthening families. This is the sort of
investment which, by the way, is even more valuable in difficult
times because it allows us to invest truly in the future, our
children.
In this case with respect to EI, there are a number of important
changes that affect families. Already in terms of supporting
children we have created the national child benefit, one of the
most innovative new federal-provincial-territorial programs of
the last few decades, which is aimed directly at fighting child
poverty. I think members on all sides of the House agree it is
something which we must tackle at this time. In terms of the EI
legislation, that child benefit helps parents stay in the labour
market while they are bringing up their children.
We have improved benefits and services for low income families
with children. We have reduced the barriers that many low income
families face in moving from social assistance to the workforce.
Particularly in Ontario there are these serious barriers with
this discrimination against families on social assistance,
particularly when they get to the point where they can move into
low paying positions so they can move up the wage scale.
The child benefit is increasing federal benefits to children by
$1.7 billion a year for low income families. This means better
food, clothing and shelter for children in those families. It
also means a better and fairer chance for those children.
To make sure that we can do an even better job in helping
children break out of the cycle of poverty, we will provide a
third significant investment in the national child benefit by the
year 2001. This means that by 2004 the maximum benefit received
by a low income family will increase to $2,400 for the first
child and $2,200 for each other child.
1645
Parents in a two child family, by the year 2004, could receive
up to $4,600 to assist them in bringing up their children. Many
other programs are also helping Canadian families. In this case,
the EI program has a role to play. We are talking about families
and keeping the parents in the workforce or, when they are out of
the workforce, allowing them to get back into the workforce as
effectively as possible.
One measure is the family supplement, which tops up benefits to
a maximum of 80% for claimants in low income families with
children. Again the emphasis is on families with children.
As of December 31, 2000, we enhanced EI parental benefits to
provide parents with the flexibility to spend more time with
their young children during the crucial early years of life.
The proposed changes in the bill to the EI program will take us
one step further by providing more money to the families of
claimants and fixing some of the problem areas that Canadians
have identified in the EI program.
We have learned that the intensity rule, which was designed to
reduce reliance on EI and increase incentives to work, simply has
not proved to be effective. The intensity rule reduced repeat
claimants' benefit rates by one percentage point for each 20
weeks of benefits claimed in the past five years. This feature
has not discouraged the repeated use of EI benefits in part
because many workers in areas of high unemployment simply cannot
find other jobs in the off season.
The bill before us proposes to eliminate the intensity rule
altogether. I campaigned on that and I support it. This does
not mean that we accept high unemployment levels in the
communities concerned. Our challenge is to work together with
the provinces and territories, business groups and community
leaders to come up with local solutions that will expand working
opportunities in areas of high unemployment.
Canadians have also told us that the clawback sometimes reduces
the benefits of middle income clients. When this happens it
means that money is taken away from many families for whom money
is tight. The bill proposes to raise the net income level at
which the clawback applies to repeat claimants from $39,000 to
$48,750. In future only high income Canadians will face any
repayment of employment benefits. This will provide relief to
middle income earners who are temporarily unemployed.
Canadians also told us that it was not fair to claw back the
benefits of people who are too sick to work or who want to take
time off with their newborn or newly adopted child. The bill
would exempt those collecting maternity, parental and sickness
benefits from having to repay any benefits.
A number of parents returning to work after caring for young
children also told us that the current EI provisions dealing with
re-entrance make it hard for them to qualify for regular
benefits. Consequently the bill would create a level playing
field by extending the so-called look back period for re-entrant
parents by four years. This means that claimants who have
received EI, maternity or parental benefits in the four years
prior to the current two year look back, will require the same
number of hours as other claimants to be eligible for regular
benefits. This is only fair.
This change makes particularly good sense in the light of the
government's commitment to families with children through
initiatives, such as the extension of parental benefits, which
are designed to help parents balance the demands of work and the
demands of family while their children are very young.
It should also be noted that as a part of the bill we propose to
modify the fishing regulations to ensure that self-employed
fishers can take advantage of the enhanced maternity, parental
and sickness benefits. This measure would be retroactive to
December 31, 2000, the same date the enhancements came into
effect for other EI claimants.
1650
Many parents told us that they wanted the EI premium rates to
be kept at a moderate level so that they could keep more of the
pay they earn to buy the necessities of life. Accordingly the
premium rate has been reduced by 15 cents from $2.40 in 2000 to
$2.25 in 2001. This is the seventh consecutive reduction in
premiums, resulting in billions of dollars in savings for workers
and their families.
Taken together I believe these changes represent good news for a
large number of EI claimants and their families. They leave more
money in the pockets of families. They will protect first time
special benefits and middle income EI claimants from having to
repay their benefits. They will also support the critical
transition back to the labour force for parents who take time out
to take care of their children.
Mr. Speaker, it has been a pleasure for me to address you for the first time.
I congratulate you on your appointment, and I intend to support
the legislation.
* * *
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ms. Marlene Catterall (Ottawa West—Nepean, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, discussions have taken place between all the parties and
I believe you would find consent for the following:
That the recorded divisions scheduled today at the conclusion of
government orders take place in the following order:
All necessary questions to dispose of the supply day motion in
the name of the Leader of the Opposition.
All questions to dispose of second reading of Bill C-2.
All questions to dispose of second reading of Bill C-8.
The main motion concerning the Address in Reply to the Speech
from the Throne.
I understand there will be another motion, a pro forma motion,
once the motion has been adopted.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): The House has heard the
terms of the motion. Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Motion agreed to)
* * *
[Translation]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACT
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-2, an
act to amend the Employment Insurance Act and the Employment
Insurance (Fishing) Regulations, be read the second time and
referred to a committee.
Mr. Gérard Asselin (Charlevoix, BQ): Mr. Speaker, this is my
first speech of this 37th parliament. I have had the opportunity
to rise on questions and comments a few times, but this is my
first speech and it deals with Bill C-2, the employment insurance
bill. It was the second bill to be introduced in the House of
Commons since parliament reconvened.
First, I must thank all the voters of Charlevoix, all the
workers, all those who are unemployed and all the seasonal
workers. We have fought relentlessly since the Axworthy
reform—which became the Young reform and which has taken the
names of other ministers since then—which was part of the
government's electoral platform.
The Prime Minister and the government said that as soon as
parliament reconvened they were willing to correct their mistake
and to make significant improvements to the bill.
We have before us today Bill C-2, which replaces Bill C-44.
During the election campaign, the Prime Minister told us that the
reason Bill C-44 did not pass third reading in the House of
Commons was that the Bloc Quebecois refused to have this bill
rammed through the House.
Bill C-44 was not passed at third reading because of a
government strategy. The Prime Minister decided to introduce a
bill at the very end of the session in June, in order to give
parliamentarians time to think about first, second and third
readings, and perhaps royal assent, over the summer.
Seeing that the bill did not have the unanimous support of the
House, of workers and employers in the regions, of social
organizations, women's groups and so forth, the Prime Minister
told himself that going into an election campaign with such a
bill would be a surefire disaster. He decided that he would
withdraw it and not introduce it at third reading.
During the recent election campaign, he promised to introduce a
bill, the one we are considering today, but parliamentarians are
not being allowed to debate it in depth. The bill was supposed to
have been extensively amended. We have to get across to the
government, especially the Minister of Human Resources
Development and the Prime Minister, people's concerns about this
bill which, in our view, is worthless.
1655
In our view, this bill only allows the government to correct
part of its mistake. In its reform, it had taken the intensity
rules and reduced the rate from 55% to 50%. Hence the penalty to
seasonal workers of 1% a year.
The minister admitted that this was a mistake. Many regions
believed the government's promises, given the $30 billion surplus
in the EI fund alone, and the budgetary surpluses of the
government and the Minister of Finance because of cuts in
transfer payments for health and education, in a wide variety of
areas.
However, Charlevoix was not taken in,
because we have seen what happened in Gaspé, where there
have been plant closings and unemployment has risen. The
government tried to solve the problem in Gaspé or soften its
impact, at the expense of the north shore, the
Saguenay—Lac-St-Jean and the Lower St. Lawrence, taking from them
to give to Gaspé.
This is more or less what the government has done so far. It
gives with one hand and takes away with the other. In an attempt
to compensate for the funds it would take to increase the number
of insurable weeks in Gaspé, it decided to reorganize the
economic regions and to combine the north shore and the Lower St.
Lawrence, which has forced us into a transitional measure
involving an unacceptable proposal for our seasonal workers. We
were, for example, proposed a figure of 525 hours worked for 21
insurable weeks.
Already, with the 420 hour requirement, six out of ten
contributors to employment insurance are not entitled to it, that
is, the seasonal workers in the tourist or forestry industry, in
fisheries or some other area where employment is seasonal.
When the minister tells me “Sir, we would like to try extending
the seasons in your area”, I would dearly love to put a dome
over the peat bogs so that peat can be cut longer, but that is
impossible.
We also looked into the possibility of enclosing the hills at
the Saint-François river under a refrigerated dome so that there
could be skiing on artificial snow until August, but that too is
impossible.
We have also tried looking into various ways of carrying out
logging operations in winter with 5, 6, 7 or 8 feet of snow, but
that too is impossible.
The minister asks us to extend our seasons, and I must mention
the tourism industry. People who go camping celebrate Christmas
in August, not on December 25, when campgrounds have long been
closed. We can promote tourist attractions at various times of
the year but, on a campground, Christmas is celebrated in August,
not in December.
The Minister of Human Resources Development, the Minister of
National Revenue and the Secretary of State for Amateur Sport
criss-crossed our regions during the election campaign to inform
us of the transitional measures that they had put in place. They
recognized that it would be difficult for those who had qualified
with 525 hours for 21 weeks, because there would be a grey area.
We are now in that grey area. On February 15, people will stop
getting EI benefits. In my riding, people are no longer getting
EI benefits and they will probably not work before June 1. They
now find themselves in that so-called grey area. These people
have no income at all, yet, there is $30 billion in the
employment insurance fund. People need their EI benefits to pay
their rent and their food, to put bread and butter on the table.
Right now they find themselves in the grey area.
In the coming days, Statistics Canada will probably tell us that
the unemployment rate miraculously dropped in Charlevoix. It will
be down in February, in March and probably in April. Statistics
Canada will come up with these figures. Of course, the government
is handing out fewer cheques, since people no longer qualify,
since they are no longer entitled to benefits.
When people no longer get EI benefits, the unemployment rate as
determined by Statistics Canada drops by osmosis, but income
security goes up in Quebec, since a number of these people have
no other option than to go on welfare.
1700
When welfare is involved, the bill is footed 100% by Quebecers,
but EI premiums are in no way the property of the federal
government. In my view, the federal government has the authority
to legislate, but not to interfere. It is unfortunate that we
are being forced to debate this today in order to get the
government to understand that the bill it is preparing to have
passed can perhaps put right some of its mistakes.
However, when the government promised to look at the bill in
depth, we in the Bloc Quebecois told it that the money belonged
to employees and employers. We suggested a parliamentary
committee to split the bill in two in order to correct the
mistakes that were made when the intensity rule was lowered from
55% to 50%. If we correct this error, we can immediately improve
the rule. We would be favourable to raising the intensity rule
to 60% instead of 50% or 55%. We suggest that there be uniform
eligibility criteria.
Why does a new entrant on the labour market need 910 hours to
qualify for employment insurance? Someone who works 32 to 35
hours a week for 10 to 12 weeks and who pays premiums is not
entitled to EI. We want this abolished. We want the number of
hours to be the same for everyone—300. Things would be much
easier then.
We also suggest that the two week waiting period be abolished.
Why two weeks? We meet someone who has just lost his job and
received his last week's pay, and he tells us that he has to wait
two weeks. It takes a month for the person to begin receiving
benefits.
The Bloc Quebecois is going to vote against Bill C-2, although
we know that it will improve things and correct the mistakes of
the government, which dipped into the fund. We know, however,
that the bill allows the government to help itself to the surplus
in the employment insurance fund. This is unacceptable. We have
always been critical of this, as have trade unions and social
organizations. For our part, we will continue to speak out
against this practice. On behalf of the seasonal workers in
Charlevoix, we will be voting against this bill because we think
it is unacceptable.
[English]
Mr. John Cannis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Industry, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have congratulated the other
Chairs. However, this is the first time I can congratulate you
on your new assignment.
Throughout the debate today we heard members from both sides of
the House talk about the technicalities of the debate, the
statistics, the hours, the payments, the clawbacks, et cetera.
What I would like to do is talk a little about the contributions
to the employment insurance program. Then I want to go back 40
to 50 years and talk about where the program was then, where it
is today, how it has changed, the purpose of it and why we had to
make changes to it after we came to government in 1993.
As you will recall, Mr. Speaker, you were a member of parliament
at that time as well. We did a mass review of overhauling the
system. At that time, my colleagues from Brampton Centre and
from Parkdale—High Park and I worked together to modernize the
program.
The member from Calgary West made some comments which I would
like to respond to. The member of the Bloc from Mercier also
made some comments with respect to the program. I say to my
colleagues that it is appropriate that we take this opportunity,
not just to talk about the bill itself which will go to committee
and changes will be made, but to tell the audience out there what
the EI premium is all about.
I want to start out by saying that in 1993 the EI premium was
pegged at $3.30 per $100. That is what Mr. Mulroney and the
current leader of the Conservative Party left us with. Over
seven years that premium has declined to $2.25 per $100, as
was mentioned earlier by my colleague from Peterborough. If
we add those pennies, as someone called them, which are well over
$1.05 per $100, and we look at the two million people who have
found employment since 1993, they add up to billions of dollars.
1705
There is a fundamental difference here that the opposition
refuses to acknowledge. In 1993 Canada had an unemployment rate
of 11.4%. Today, thank God, we have an unemployment rate of 6.5%
or 6.6%. In the last seven years over two million people have
come back into the employment factor of the equation. What does
that mean? Simply put, prior to 1993 there were two million
people taking money out of the system. That is why the system
was in a shambles. Now over two million people are putting money
into the system.
Fortunately, today we are in the position of having surpluses
with which we can reinvest, surpluses that unemployed people have
an opportunity to access. Earlier the member from the Bloc
talked about higher education. These surpluses go toward helping
our youth get higher levels of education, or retraining, or
perhaps to become a computer programmer, or an engineer or a
graphics designer.
Many people have a problem when they talk about the EI
contributions. As a former employer part of my obligation was to
make contributions to the Canada pension program and to the
unemployment insurance program. I am willing to bet that most of
the members in this place, as well as the average Canadian, drive
a car and own a home. They buy some form of insurance. I am
tired of hearing comments from the opposition, such as those made
by the member for Calgary West. He said that we were robbing the
people. The member referred to the pages, which was uncalled for.
I drive a car. Year in and year out I pay an auto insurance
premium. I wish never to have an accident. I have insurance for
when and if I need to access it. Nobody is paying into this
employment insurance program with the intent of accessing it.
There are people in the Atlantic provinces, Ontario, British
Columbia and other parts of Canada who unfortunately are seasonal
workers. There are single mothers in Ontario, Saskatchewan and
other parts of Canada who work part time to subsidize whatever
incomes they have so they can buy boots for their children for
the winter. Perhaps they wish to subsidize school programs which
are being cut right, left and centre in Ontario, for example. Are
we going to penalize single mothers or single fathers who are
trying to provide for their families? Surely not.
The member for the Bloc said earlier today that we are righting
the wrong. I remember my father saying that to err is human, to
forgive divine. Today we are trying to change that. Today we
are saying that maybe there was a mistake. During the election
campaign the Prime Minister, when was in the Atlantic provinces,
said that we would correct it. That is what is happening today.
We are making the adjustments to this program through Bill C-2.
I have a problem when I hear the opposition talking about the
surpluses. I will go back to buying insurance. If a person is a
good driver, his or her insurance premium over the years will be
reduced to some degree. We contribute to the EI program and draw
from it. However, if the EI system is being continuously used
then surely there will be some provisions to offset that in some
form or another.
It said in the 2000 monitoring and assessment report that in the
year 1999-2000 about 400,000 jobs would be created. Time will
tell once the statistics come out.
1710
Let us look at those 400,000 new primarily full time jobs. There
will be 400,000 people who will no longer be accessing the
system. They will contributing to it. No one would have thought
seven years ago that we would be in this enviable position today
talking about reinvesting in our country, reinvesting in higher
education for our youth and reinvesting in health programs.
They talked about the Canada pension program. Yes, there has
been a slight increase. When this government took over it knew
that it had to do something about it. The previous Conservative
government and the leader of the Conservative Party refused to
take the responsibility. They had an opportunity to make those
changes and come to an agreement with the provinces, but they
chose not to. They were afraid to. We made that decision with
the provinces. Yes, there has been a small increase, but when we
compare the decrease in EI contributions as opposed to the
increase in Canada pension contributions, I think it is a pretty
fair deal.
What Canadians out there need to know is that any premium
increase to the Canada pension program has to be done with the
agreement of all provinces. The government alone does not have
the right to make that increase arbitrarily. I am taking this
opportunity, without going into the guts of Bill C-2, to tell
Canadians this story so they will know that.
People talk about the surpluses. I am very happy to stand on
this side of the House, as a representative of the government, to
say what has been done with the surpluses and to say that we are
not robbing Canadians. It is a fair and equitable system, a
system that has been in place since 1940 to support Canadians.
In closing, I encourage all members to support this new and
changing legislation.
[Translation]
Mr. Ghislain Lebel (Chambly, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have followed
the debates that have gone on since this morning with
considerable interest, especially since the party in government
invoked closure, with the aim of preventing us from speaking more
and perhaps from looking more closely at the whole employment
insurance system governing workers and work in Canada and Quebec.
Employment insurance, it must be understood, is a sort of mutual
insurance, a kind of insurance frequently found in Quebec,
although less and less so now, because what was mutual is being
demutualized.
The federal government's approach and concept of the employment
insurance plan was to guarantee real mutual insurance. Thus,
workers fearful about one day losing their job decided to
contribute an amount of money in order to create a fund for
themselves that would help them, in darker days, to continue
their day to day existence, meet their obligations, the first of
which is to eat. That was the aim of employment insurance.
Unfortunately, this government is incapable of revealing its
true objectives to the people of Canada. It is incapable of
telling it like it is and incapable of saying that to eliminate
the almost immeasurable accumulated debt of $680 billion, sales
taxes or gasoline taxes, already fairly high, or income taxes had
to be increased.
The government would rather get its hands on the surplus that
was generated to benefit the taxpayers, not to let the government
use it to pay back the debt, the deficits that have accumulated
over the years. The government's only concern is to show that
federalism is profitable and that everything is fine, that the
government is rolling over in clover. That is not true. The
government is using money it should never have been allowed to
grab. The auditor general recently said so.
1715
The previous speaker pointed out that since the government has
been in office the premiums of the employees have dropped from
$3 to around $2. This is a significant amount of money to pour
back in the economy. However, for some five years now, we could
have maintained the current EI system without charging a penny
more to the workers, because with the surplus we would have
been able to meet the needs of all the EI contributors.
Unfortunately, the government lacked the political will to
increase the taxes in order to reduce the accumulated deficits.
Instead, it chose to ignore the problem.
Employment insurance rules have been changed; only 42% of people
qualify for it. Yet, 100% of them pay premiums the minute they
start working, but the government says nothing about this.
It is as if someone were to take out property insurance and the
insurer were to say “If your property goes up in flames, you
have four chances out of ten of getting paid, but you must pay
100% of your premiums and pray God that your property will not go
up in flames”. This is somewhat the same thing.
The auditor general recently came here and supported the
opposition's arguments. There is no basis, no calculation to
scientifically establish the workers' contribution rate for
employment insurance. It is pulled out of a hat. Things are not
so bad. Since much of our debt is owed to foreigners, with the
fluctuation of interest rates on the international market,
contributions to employment insurance are reduced or maintained
at the same level for a while, without any kind of ability to
objectively and correctly assess the needs of the plan.
Certainly, if we constantly draw on the employment insurance
fund to pay for the accumulated national debt of almost $600
billion, we will never be able to contribute enough to pay off
such a debt. Was this the true objective of the employment
insurance plan when it was created? Let us not forget that it
results from a federal-provincial agreement, from a
constitutional amendment made in 1943, I believe, that
transferred the whole employment insurance sector from provincial
to federal authorities.
People put their confidence in the federal government. We now
see the results. In Quebec, we are now used to this, and we no
longer have any illusions about these people.
That is why members on this side of the House would rather take
off with what little they have left now, because in a few years
we will have nothing left.
As for the health system, the federal government used to
contribute 50% of the costs in the provinces. Now it is barely
paying 15%, but it sets the standards. This is like inviting
someone to a restaurant and footing the bill while the person
decides on the menu. It takes some nerve to act like this. Such
is the story of the party opposite.
Let us talk about women's issues, including parental leave, as
they relate to this bill. There are studies—and the Liberals
know them as well as I do—which show that women are paid less
than men. This is not from me. Women are certainly aware of that
situation, because they went all the way to the Federal Court of
Appeal to defend the principle of pay equity. The government was
paying women less than men. It was told so by a number of courts
and administrative tribunals. The government threatened until the
last minute to take the issue to the Supreme Court of Canada, to
challenge the principle that equal work should mean equal pay for
women.
It is the same thing with employment insurance. The same old
principles that have been governing the Liberals for eons are
resurfacing. A pregnant worker is not entitled to benefits unless
she has accumulated 600 hours of work. There is no exception to
this rule. There are pregnant women who, because of the very
nature of their work, because they are exposed to certain risks
such as computers, radioactive rays and so on must, on the
recommendation of their doctor, stop working before having
accumulated 600 hours.
The bill does not provide exceptions for such cases. No, the
rules are very strict. It is always black and white for the party
in office. That is the law and that is it. They make it and they
impose it.
The Liberals are really not exercising the wisdom of Solomon.
The hon. member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve is studying law in his
spare time, but it is not a waste of time.
1720
Even though he is doing it in his spare time, it is not a waste
of time. He has become a legal expert who can be pretty
convincing. He will tell members the same thing I am telling them
now. We could have done away with EI contributions for several
years, as the auditor general told us. The government would have
been able to maintain the program. Now it is going to take $30
billion from those who work hard to earn a living and use that
money to pay off the debt Canada has accumulated over the years
to cover this government's wild spending.
We are talking here about $2.8 billion. I see you nodding in
agreement, Mr. Speaker. The embassy in Tokyo cost $2.8 billion.
Five thousand dollars does not even cover the value and the
surface area of the embassy grounds. Such lavishness is just
incredible. Yet, young women with young children who are
unfortunate enough to lose their jobs are condemned to live in
misery by this government. It has no qualms about letting these
people starve. That is poverty.
When we talk about poverty, that is the kind of poverty we are
talking about, and not the poverty of the billionaire friend of
the government who made only $250 million instead of $500
billion on a government transaction involving a 40 year lease.
He is not the one who is poor. The one who is poor is the woman
who arrives at work one morning and is told that there is no
job for her any more. It is the woman who is told by her physician that
she must stop working because she is pregnant and unable to go
on. That woman does a lot for society. I know my friends opposite
are totally insensitive to this kind of misery.
[English]
Mr. Wayne Easter (Malpeque, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to have the opportunity to speak to Bill C-2. To begin,
I would like to comment on the last remark about Canada's
embassies around the world.
Canada's embassies are very important, and the hon. member
opposite knows that. They are important in terms of trade
relationships and creating jobs, which the bill is indeed related
to. Never mind the malarkey in terms of trying to make a fuss
about the cost of an embassy. They are an important part of the
Canadian government. I am glad they are there to represent
Canada in our business relations and other relations around the
world.
I also wonder why the hon. member opposite is so excited about
our embassy when Quebec is out there setting up its own embassies
and duplicating what is already there. That is where the real
waste is, in terms of the embassies that the Quebec government is
establishing.
As I said, I welcome the opportunity to speak on Bill C-2. I
especially welcome the amendments to the act. It is a very good
step forward to improvements on the original bill.
Quite a number of members on this side of the House had serious
concerns about certain parts of the bill, especially the
intensity rule. That is why, in 1996, we welcomed the proposal
to monitor the impacts of the bill. Bill C-2, which is all about
making positive changes where needed, is a result of that
monitoring.
We want EI to work the way it was intended, and that is to offer
temporary support to workers who are unemployed so they can
rejoin the workforce.
I am pleased that for the most part the provisions of the
employment insurance program are working the way they were
intended.
1725
My contribution to the debate will be to explain the proposed
changes to the intensity provisions. The original thinking
behind the intensity rule was to provide a greater incentive to
work and to reduce dependence on EI as an income support.
Some thought the intensity rule would accomplish this by
reducing the benefit rate of frequent claimants from 55% over
time to 50%. In other words, the benefit rate would be reduced
by one percentage point for every 20 weeks of regular benefits
collected over the past five years.
The rule has proven to be ineffective. The monitoring and
assessment reports indicate that the proportion of EI benefits
paid out to frequent claimants has remained stable at around 40%.
There is a reason for that of course, and it is the availability
of work in certain areas. In a country like Canada we naturally
have a lot of seasonal industries.
The government has done much in terms of creating the economic
conditions for the creation of jobs. We got rid of the deficit.
We have introduced new initiatives. In my region we have better
utilized the regional development agency, ACOA. We are
implementing the Atlantic investment partnership, and are
basically there as a government trying to create more year round
jobs, more full time jobs and longer periods of work for people
in seasonal industries.
These initiatives and others across Canada have improved the
employment picture with the creation of over two million jobs
since 1993. However, Canada will always have seasonal industries
which, by their very nature, require seasonal workers.
My colleague, the member for Egmont, mentioned his
riding and the seasonal workers there. These are important
industries. Workers in the agriculture and fisheries only work
at certain times of the year because of the nature of the
industries and of our climate. However, those workers are
important to the economy. They contribute to the economy in a
very great way.
Therefore, while the intensity provisions make sense in theory,
in practice we have found that they do not curtail repeated use
of the EI system, especially in areas where there are few
opportunities for employment. As a result, we are quite
concerned that they have become a punitive measure. I have also
called the intensity rule a penalty on seasonal workers, and this
bill proposes to change that and withdraw the penalty.
The bill proposes to eliminate the intensity provision
altogether and to reinstate the benefit rate at 55% for all
claims. These claims, as we said many times in the past, will be
retroactive to October 1, 2000.
The government remains fully committed to the goals of the EI
reforms introduced in 1996. The program is called employment
insurance. It is designed to provide temporary income
replacement and to help Canadians prepare for and obtain
employment.
Yes, the Canadian economy has been doing extremely well but not
all workers enjoy the full benefits of a healthy economy. Some
areas in every region continue to have high rates of
unemployment. Workers in those areas deserve our assistance.
I ask all hon. members in this place to note that these proposed
changes will not affect just the Atlantic provinces. Sometimes
we are pegged with that image. Eliminating the intensity
provisions will benefit forestry workers in British Columbia,
construction workers in Ontario and tourism workers in Quebec. It
will put more money in the pockets of those workers so that they
are better able to provide for their families.
1730
During this debate I would ask hon. members to keep in mind that
EI is just one of a number of ways to help unemployed Canadians.
I think we all agree that increasing employment opportunities is
a partnership exercise involving the provinces, the territories,
communities, and business and labour organizations.
I know that seasonal workers very much want to increase their
job prospects. They understand that long term solutions will be
found through improving their skills and the economic development
in their particular regions. The Liberal government will
continue to strive in that direction, working with its partners
to expand and diversify the local economies.
The amendments proposed in the bill will certainly help in terms
of assisting those families, especially where there are seasonal
industries with important workers in our economy. I encourage
all members to support these amendments so that the bill may pass
quickly through the House, so that those people at work can
contribute to our economy, and so that those people who work and
contribute to our economy in those seasonal industries and have
been unfairly penalized by the intensity rule will now see it
withdrawn and will be able to receive full benefits, as is
intended by these amendments.
Mrs. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to have the opportunity to speak to this very important
piece of legislation, a piece of legislation that has been a long
time coming.
Before I get into the legislation itself, I do want to take this
opportunity to thank the people of Churchill riding for their
support of myself and the staff in my office. I believe that by
re-electing me they were also showing support for the work that
the staff in my office have done over the last three and a half
years in acting and speaking on their behalf in the Parliament of
Canada. Churchill is a huge, very diverse riding, with
aboriginal and non-aboriginal populations that are almost an even
split. There are industrial communities and very poor
communities. I truly thank the people from the riding for their
show of support.
Within the riding I have 31 first nation communities. The
unemployment rates in those communities are extremely high. I am
not talking about 15% to 20% unemployment. I am talking 70%,
80%, 90% or 95% unemployment in a number of those communities, so
I can tell the House that it has been a very tough haul in the
last few years.
Many who do work in those communities work at seasonal and part
time employment. A lot of that employment is reliant on winter
roads: logging and the shipping of equipment and goods over
those roads while they are in place. Others fish, trap and are
guides at some of the best world class fishing and hunting
lodges. Others find work in the construction industry in the
spring, summer and early fall, the only times that we are really
able in the north to do a lot of those things.
Through no fault of their own, the seasonal and part time
workers have suffered severely under this Liberal government's
employment insurance strategy. It is no wonder, because I
listened to a previous Liberal colleague indicate that the
Liberal government planned its program so that people would not
be dependent on EI. I do not know which people on EI he knows,
but most I know would gladly be working rather than be on EI.
They do not plan their lives to be on employment insurance.
I suggest that when a government has a warped sense of
guidelines as to what a program is based on, chances are that it
will come up with a program that does not meet the needs of the
unemployed. That is why we saw people struggling to survive on
low EI payments or being forced to go on welfare. Let us be
clear about this: when the government cut EI payments, the
numbers on social assistance increased and the numbers using food
banks increased. In my riding alone, in the year 1998, EI
benefits were reduced by just under $17 million. A riding of
about 78,000 people saw a reduction of $17 million in money
coming in. Most of those people had very low incomes.
Who suffered from this misguided Liberal program? Those people
exactly, those least able to cope: the aboriginal and seasonal
and part time workers and the women, pregnant or otherwise, were
those whose suffering was greatest.
1735
This program failed drastically to meet the needs of those
people and not at a time when there was not money in the program
to benefit those people. With huge surpluses in the program,
what did the government do? It used those dollars to make it
seem like the government, with its great planning, was reducing
the deficit.
That was not the case. It was not the government that was doing
a darn fine job of management. It was the government doing a
darn fine job of ripping off those people paying into EI, the
employers and the workers who were out there working and
supporting a program that they wanted to have available for
workers who did not have the opportunity to work. The workers
who are out there do not begrudge paying EI, but they want to
know that the dollars in the EI program are going to unemployed
workers and to training and not going to making the finance
minister or the Prime Minister look good. They want the money to
go to what it was designed to do.
Before I get into more of my thoughts on the government's misuse
of EI dollars, I also want to comment on an article I have in
front of me. My staff often think I am a little crazy because I
read almost everything that comes across my desk. I often find
really good work. This is from Health News, from the
University of Toronto Faculty of Medicine. It is from an article
from early last year called “Can Unemployment Make you Sick?”
It's not just the fact of losing a job and an income. People's
identities can be highly tied to their jobs—traditionally the
case for men—so a job loss can be psychologically traumatic.
—The stress of job loss can produce actual biochemical changes
in the body (although not all of those are necessarily negative).
—higher levels of cortisol, prolactin, growth hormone,
cholesterol and HDL-cholesterol, as well as lowered immune
reactions compared to when they were still working.
I listened to all these people that have been talking today on
EI and I ask them to think of the number of adult men in the
fishing industry, in the part time jobs and the seasonal jobs in
my riding. How many fall into this category?
The article continues:
Among adult men in particular, unemployment is associated with a
higher risk of heart disease. Unemployed workers visit doctors
more often and are admitted to hospital more frequently than
employed people. There's even evidence of an increased death
rate among unemployed people—particularly unemployed middle aged
men—with suicides, accidents, heart disease and lung cancer
accounting for the increased mortality.
Did these people need the added stress and hassle of the Liberal
government's employment insurance plan cutting the number of
weeks that they were able to work, adjusting the intensity rule
and not allowing them to get as much from their benefits as
before? Did they need that? No. Added to the stress, they got
an employment insurance program that did not meet their needs.
They were made to feel like criminals for wanting their own
dollars that they put into unemployment. Also, the government
could make itself look good.
The government has come up with this legislation and I should
note that they waited long enough to do it after the great work
of members of this House of Commons. I want to commend my
colleague, the member for Acadie—Bathurst, as well as a number
of Bloc members who worked very hard to continually bring up the
issue of changes needed in the EI program, time and time again.
It must have been two and a half or three years before the
government finally listened and came up with this legislation,
saying yes, it would identify some of the areas that need to be
changed. Is it going to solve the problem? Not a chance. The
problem is still there, and again, not because the dollars are
not there in the EI program. They are there. I believe it is
$38 billion a year we are looking at. That surplus is going to
be a huge amount of money, which was intended for the use of
unemployed workers and those who needed training. These changes
are definitely not going to meet those needs.
There are some other areas we could look at improving. The
government could have looked at amendments to eliminate the two
week waiting period for apprentices. I hope and I am sure they
will be introduced at committee stage or in the House of Commons
later on. Why on earth, with a surplus in the fund, would the
government not put in place amendments allowing apprentices this?
These men and women are apprenticing. They are in the workforce,
but they want to go back to school. They need money coming in.
EI will pay them, but there is a two week waiting period.
1740
Why on earth is there a two week waiting period? Why on earth
do they have to be penalized for being in the workforce and
continuing their education? Why on earth would the government
put in a two week waiting period and leave it there when there is
a surplus in the EI program? There is no reason whatsoever other
than to give a pat on the back to the finance minister.
We could increase the maximum insurable earnings and give those
people who are working in high income jobs the opportunity to pay
in on that and then get an increased amount back. Also, the
qualifying period should include any period of employment, 52
weeks in the 260 weeks preceding. Give a fair chance to people
who are going out there looking for whatever job they can get. It
can be sporadic, with a week here or a couple of days there, but
they are out there, so give them a fair chance to benefit from
the employment insurance plan.
Again, as a number of Bloc members have mentioned today, allow
the self-employed to be active participants in the EI program.
It is not as if the program is suffering. It is not as if these
people would not willingly pay into the program. A good
insurance program does not look at how it can cut and slice and
take away parts of itself. It looks at how the program can be
enhanced. Let us enhance the program and allow more people to
access it. Allow the self-employed to pay into the program and
access it.
We need to allow persons receiving workmen's compensation
payments to continue making EI payments. Right now they are
restricted from doing so. I have situations in my riding where
persons who are getting workmen's compensation do not have
payments made to EI or CPP due to the nature of the way the
structure has been set up. As a result, they are in a crucial
period.
Madam Speaker, I know you are giving me the timelines, so I just
want to follow up and say that I also support the setting up of a
separate commission or insurance board to look after EI.
I also have just one comment. I suggest that what has happened
with the Liberal government is that the finance minister is
acting as Robin Hood and Prince John has joined him in taking
money from the unemployed and giving it to the rich.
[Translation]
Ms. Diane St-Jacques (Shefford, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I would
first like to point to something very important. The bill was
introduced in the House before and got to second reading. Then an
election was called, and Canadians gave us the mandate to
continue along the same path. This is why we are bringing forth the
bill again.
It is very important to put things in perspective. The
establishment of the new employment insurance system, in July
1996, was the first major reform of the program in 25 years.
The old unemployment insurance system had served Canadians
well, but it had become obvious that it no longer met the needs
of the active population. When reforming a system as old as the
unemployment system, one has to expect that adjustments will
become necessary later on. This is why the government is putting
forward the legislative amendments before us today.
We are not going back to the system that existed prior to 1996,
as some of my colleagues suggested earlier. The 1996 reform
original objectives remain unchanged. The government still wants
to bring more fairness to the system, to reduce dependency on
benefits, to assist low income families, to reduce the costs
associated with the program and to give greater priority to
active measures to help some workers get back to work. These
objectives are as important today as they were in 1996.
As my hon. colleagues in the House know, the government has
reviewed and assessed the effects of the 1996 reform. Our studies
show that most of the elements of the employment insurance
scheme, like the divisor and the hours based system, are working
well, but that some elements need to be changed.
On the whole, the employment insurance scheme is up to its
raison-d'être, which is to act as a security net for workers
temporarily out of work. We are constantly reviewing its
implementation, and we find that it is indeed the case. However,
it is not perfect. Perfection is hard if not impossible to
achieve.
This does not mean, however, that we should not be making
adjustments. That is why we are putting forward these proposals
to the House. This is not the first time changes are being made to the
employment insurance scheme. We have changed elements in the
system before. For example, in 1997, we launched a pilot project
on shortened work weeks, which help ensure that people whose
income is low at times do not see their benefits cut.
1745
The close monitoring of the implementation of the new system and
the analysis of the opinions expressed by workers directly
affected by certain provisions now allow us to make new
adjustments.
Regarding the intensity rule, we have to admit that it is a
measure that did not work as expected. Because it did not result
in the work effort increasing while dependency decreased, and
because it is seen as having a punitive effect, we propose to
eliminate it.
On the other hand, the clawback provision, or more specifically
the benefit repayment provision, is a different matter.
That measure was introduced to deter high income earners from
frequently relying on employment insurance. The majority of
middle income earners pay premiums for many years without ever
claiming benefits. Since the purpose was to deter repeated claims
by high income earners, first time claimants should not be
affected, because they are certainly not abusing the EI plan.
We are suggesting that all first time claimants should be
exempted from the clawback provision.
I am sure hon. members will agree with me that the clawback
provision should not apply to Canadians who get benefits because
they are too sick to be working or because they stay home after
the birth of a child to take care of a baby. That is why we are
suggesting that claimants collecting special benefits also be
exempted.
We are deeply convinced that the clawback provision should apply
only to high income earners who rely frequently on employment
insurance, and not to middle income earners.
We have realized also that rules governing re-entrants should
take into account the extremely important role of the parents in
the early development of their children. Nothing is more
important than the responsibility to raise the next generation.
Those who do assume that responsibility ought not to be penalized
if they choose to withdraw from the work force to do so.
This is why the government proposes to adapt the rule that
applies to people returning to the work force. We propose to
make it easier for new parents to qualify for regular benefits if
they lose their job after re-entering the work force after a
prolonged absence raising children.
Thus, the increased requirements for eligibility for regular
benefits will not apply to people who have returned to the work
force after drawing maternity or parental benefits in the four
years prior to the present two-year period of retroactivity.
The bill before the House includes a recommendation on maximum
insurable earnings. This is an important figure, because it
determines maximum benefits under the program, as well as maximum
contributions. The present bill proposes maintaining insurable
earnings at $39,000, until the average industrial wage exceeds
that figure.
Once it does, we propose that there be an annual adjustment in
maximum insurable earnings according to the average industrial
wage in subsequent years.
Until 2006 the Canada Employment Commission will continue to
monitor and assess the effects of the new employment insurance
program.
The changes we are proposing, and the vigilance of the
commission, will ensure that the EI program conforms to its
objective of meeting the needs of Canadian workers in need of a
temporary source of income when they are between jobs. The
commission will also help us to determine how the EI program is
responding to labour market changes.
Canadians know their government is attentive to their needs. We
are determined to make the employment insurance program one of
the best of its kind in the entire industrialized world.
Of course, the best guarantee of financial security is stable
employment. That is why the Government of Canada will continue
the work undertaken with the provinces and territories, with
business and local leaders in order to help create an economic
climate that provides employment opportunities to all Canadians.
1750
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Madam Speaker,
it is always a pleasure to speak to the House when you are in the
chair, but this should not divert our attention from the
extremely despicable, antidemocratic and deplorable nature of the
practice which started during the previous parliament and which
brings the government to act offhandedly and to resort to gag
orders on issues of crucial importance for our fellow citizens.
I know that the citizens of Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, those of
Shefford and those of every other region in Quebec will remember
the disregard of this government for members of parliament and
the arrogance with which it deals with important issues.
The Bloc Quebecois has always been very much concerned about the
employment insurance reform. It goes back to the beginning of
1996, and was sponsored by Lloyd Axworthy, who has left public
life. The member for Mercier and my colleague, the member for
Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, an
admirable man I am sure my colleagues will all agree, and I know
they will join me in applauding him for his extraordinary work on
the employment insurance issue—both were worried about the
shrinking of the coverage.
I remember vividly the arrogance with which
the government answered our questions, particularly the minister
at the time, Mr. Axworthy, whenever we said that if this system
was maintained not even 50% of the population would have access
to employment insurance benefits. When we talked that way, we
were accused of being offhand and airy, we were compared to the
nutty professor because such a scenario seemed so improbable.
However, the assessment report tabled by the Government of
Canada through the Department of Human Resources Development
indicates—as was pointed out by the hon. member for Chambly, a
well-known authority on social democracy, whose outstanding legal
knowledge has earned him, in the past, a brilliant career as a
notary and who remains for me a source of inspiration—that
nowadays only 4 out of 10 workers qualify for EI benefits even
if everyone on the labour market does pay premiums.
Is this not a damning indictment of our democracy and the
operations of our institutions? We must understand the
difference between an assistance program and an insurance
program. Employment insurance is not a charity. Workers as well
as employers pay premiums for employment insurance. When things
take a turn for the worse and we end up unemployed, it usually
comes as a complete surprise due to massive layoffs, job loss or
industrial restructuring. These are all circumstances out of our
control.
Why is it that we now have a plan—one of the few in the western
world I am told—to which the federal government has stopped
contributing?
It is essentially workers and employers who contribute, not
quite equally, to the plan. They do not contribute equally, but
they both contribute. Is that the vision of our fellow citizens?
Is that what they expect from a responsible government?
We know how fragile the labour market is. I believe I am not
mistaken, Madam Speaker, if I say that you yourself are in your
early forties. We have both followed a similar path. We were
both involved in the labour market without being linked to a
single employer. However, my 63-year-old father—whom you would
like very much—worked for the same employer all his life.
1755
He raised five children. He worked for a textile company all his
life. He started working just before his 16th birthday and
worked pretty much all his life for the same employer.
Today, the nature of the labour market is such that this
scenario is becoming more and more unusual. It is no longer
typical.
We know that most people will have at least five employers and
at least five careers over the course of their life and this is
why it is very important when we are between jobs to have a
plan that is well adapted to this reality.
Is this the case of employment insurance as we know it?
Certainly not.
What is the most incredible, and I will not hide the fact that
it disgusts me, is the kind of servile complacency with which
the government party supports the bill. There is not one voice
of dissent to be heard. What did the members from Montreal, from
Quebec, from the maritimes say about the representations made to
them by their fellow citizens? Because, of course, everywhere in
Canada, people know that the plan does not make any sense.
Such behaviour by the majority is deplorable.
Government members can rise in the House and talk about social
justice, about Pierre Elliott Trudeau, about social democracy
and boast about being true liberals, but, at the same time, they
can, just like sheep, rise in the House and vote without the
slightest thought for the poor in favour of a plan that is
contributing to making them poorer.
This will end some day, because the people will not tolerate
eternally such arrogance on the part of the majority.
I would like to remind the House that we had made a demand that
was supported by almost all well informed groups in Quebec. It
was that the government present two bills, one being for the
creation of an independent employment fund.
The member for Chambly repeated this earlier: the surplus in the
employment insurance fund amounts to approximately $30 billion.
This is not something trivial. The chief actuary of Human
Resources Development Canada himself admitted that this
situation does not make a lot of sense. Despite the surpluses I
referred to, the government was not able to make the employment
insurance plan more generous.
The Bloc Quebecois members have asked that the rule of 910 hours
be abolished. It does not make sense that a young person who is
new on the labour market and submits a first claim must have
worked 910 hours to be eligible. Considering the social
conditions young people live in, can this be considered an
egalitarian approach. It is already hard enough to find that
first job. How can we justify making things even more
complicated for those who find themselves out of the labour
market for a first time?
Considering the huge surpluses, we had asked that the coverage
rate be increased to 60%.
This is an absolute minimum. We do not think we are being
extravagant. Nor do we feel prodigal in suggesting something
like that.
Our pleas were not heard. Because of the servile silence of the
government majority, our most needy fellow citizens are being
left in an extremely preoccupying situation.
An hon. member: The Silence of the Lambs.
Mr. Réal Ménard: The Silence of the Lambs. I think if there is
one valid movie reference, this is it.
I will end by calling for negotiations. The Government of Quebec
wishes to establish an improved system of parental leave.
Section 69 of the Employment Insurance Act would allow it.
Why are negotiations hung up and what is the government waiting
for to transfer the $600 million which Quebec could use
effectively, by establishing an integrated system, one that
would be unique and much more generous than what the federal
government is offering?
1800
Members will understand my pressing call. I caution the
government against its highhandedness and I remind it that the
Bloc Quebecois remains the first political force in Quebec. Its
members will be there to remind people that this government has
an unfair vision of social justice and that its employment
insurance bill is unfair.
I will conclude by saying that contempt can only last for a
while.
[English]
Mr. John Bryden (Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot,
Lib.): Madam Speaker, I wanted to speak in this debate simply
to make one basic statement, and that is that I make no apology
as a member on this side for the legislation that this government
brought in a few years ago that reformed and changed the
unemployment insurance, as it was then called, to employment
insurance.
In the same breath I also would say that I support the changes
that are before the House now, but the point that is important to
me, and I think that I can speak for certainly many of the people
in my constituency, is that employment insurance could not stay
the way it had been for decades. It had to change and I think it
still has to change. This is a temporary fix at most and what
the government tried to do a few years ago, in my mind, was
absolutely correct.
We as members of parliament here represent our constituencies
and different regions of the country and, more important,
different economic opportunities. I take the point that was
mentioned in one of the newspapers recently that this debate
seems to go on regional lines and that we have on one side the
western argument where they are not in need of employment
insurance as much as Atlantic Canada and so on and so forth.
It is not a regional issue at all, but it is an issue of
economic opportunity in particular constituencies. In my
constituency the economic opportunities have long been very good.
My riding is west of Hamilton and for a very long time there was
a very successful manufacturing industry in Hamilton and indeed
there was a lot of wealth in the region. While many people
certainly were on employment insurance from time to time, or
unemployment insurance, for the most part they were not as
dependent upon it as those communities perhaps that are more
resource based, where there are tremendous fluctuations in price
for commodities that can lead indeed to sudden intervals of
unemployment and where indeed there has to be a safety net.
When I was young, and I still like to think I am young, when
I was entering the workforce out of high school, in my family my
father was a working class Englishman but it was a point of pride
that was inculcated in our household that if we could possibly
help it we did not go on unemployment insurance.
I have paid into it for many, many years, and when I started in
the workforce I worked in the local foundry in my community and I
worked in a number of the manufacturing plants in Hamilton,
chiefly to earn money for my education, but a job was a job and
our family did not have much money and I certainly had to get out
there and earn my keep.
Never did I ever think that employment insurance, or
unemployment insurance as it was then known, was my entitlement.
I never felt, and I still do not feel, that simply because I may
have put many, many thousands of dollars into the unemployment
insurance program over my career, I do not feel that it is
something I should be entitled to simply because I put the money
in.
The way I was brought up to look at unemployment insurance was
that it really genuinely was an insurance program for those who
were unfortunate in their employment and suddenly lost work. That
is what I think it should be now and I support it 100% in that
context, but as time went on abuses did creep into the system.
In my own community there were some very, very obvious abuses at
the time of the amendments we made to the legislation a few years
ago.
1805
One of the most notable ones was this whole question of seasonal
employment. The example that comes to mind most graphically
in my region was where the school boards would hire the clerical
staff, the janitorial staff and the custodial staff for 10 months
of the year and then fire them for two months. Then they
would go on unemployment insurance and then they would be rehired
after the cycle.
This obviously became a culture that the staff at the schools
came to accept, that it was their entitlement to be working for
10 months of the year and then get unemployment for two months.
What was actually happening in this process, in my view, was the
school boards and the provinces that financed the school boards,
instead of giving a fair salary to the workers based on 12 months
of the year, what they were doing was that they were giving a
lesser salary and getting the top-up from the taxpayer, indeed
not from the taxpayer but from those who were putting generally
into the employment insurance fund.
I always felt and I still feel that this is wrong, that this is
not what employment insurance was ever meant to be. Madam
Speaker, you can go across the spectrum and you will find, you
could find, many examples of this where employers deliberately
took advantage of the employment and unemployment insurance
program in order to give less wages and indeed to in another
sense increase their profits, because when an employer can give
less wages by hiring a person for only six or eight months when
in fact they should be hiring them for 12 months, what they do is
they lower their cost of operation and in fact widen their
profits.
I thought it was very, very appropriate to try to address this
problem of deliberate seasonal employment for the benefit not of
the workers but for the benefit of the employer, so the attempt
that was done a few years ago to address seasonal workers I
thought was very appropriate.
Another side of the equation is when we look out of my
particular area to the country and we look into those ridings—I
like to think of it; it might be in Ontario; it might be in Nova
Scotia; it might be in Alberta or British Columbia—where the
work is seasonal because it is resource based, this creates
something of a problem too in another sense.
If we have a resource base, a resource that has been exploited,
be it wood, be it fish, that relies on the workers to work for
six or eight months of the year and then be off on employment
insurance for four months of the year as a regular year over year
thing, what we are in fact doing is that we are subsidizing the
collection of that resource. That is fine in the one sense, but
what then happens is that we run the danger of overexploiting a
resource. If people can cut trees or harvest fish at
lower than the real cost and deliver them to the marketplace,
then we are artificially inflating our ability to exploit that
resource.
Consequently, because I really believe that we have an
obligation to protect the forest, I really believe we have an
obligation to protect the fisheries and any of these other
resource based industries, I found it very difficult sometimes to
contemplate this idea that we automatically think it is the right
thing to do to subsidize the employment insurance resource based
industry.
Madam Speaker, one of the reasons why I support this legislation
is there is another side to this equation: if you take that
attitude too literally, not only would I be subject to
accusations of being a rabid right winger but quite apart from
that, if you take it too literally then you are not giving other
parts of Canada an opportunity to maintain their communities.
Let us just separate regionalism for a minute and just look at
northern Ontario. There are many, many communities in northern
Ontario based on mining and the forestry. I think it is
absolutely incumbent upon all of us as members of parliament to
sustain those communities and their cultural traditions as long
as we can. Madam Speaker, you have to strike a balance when you
are thinking in terms of employment insurance and its impact on
resource industries.
1810
I do support the changes that we see here today because I think
we have tried to make some adjustments because we did not fully
appreciate the impact of what we were doing before. But time is
passing. We are now into another century and we have to realize
that even a program like employment insurance has to be revisited
and modernized.
I thought there was a very wonderful suggestion being floated
around over on the other side, and that was the suggestion that
maybe employment insurance should be applied to self employed
people. I think that is a very worthy suggestion from the
opposition and should be explored.
[Translation]
Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ): Madam Speaker, on
this February 13, 2001, I rise with sadness to speak to this
issue.
Usually, the day before Valentine's Day, we get ready to tell
those we love best that tomorrow is a very important day, when
we will again offer them our very special wishes, but on this
February 13, the government brought in time allocation on Bill
C-2. Exactly 66 days prior, the government brought
back Bill C-44 as Bill C-2.
During the election campaign, the government made a commitment,
particularly to workers in the Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean area, to
amend the bill and make it acceptable to them. I would not think
of harking back to the same old stories, but I remember that, on
two visits made last September and October by the Minister of
National Revenue, workers back home told him “It is too bad, but
you are out. We cannot accept Bill C-44”.
During the campaign, the Secretary of State for Amateur Sport
came to tell them “Vote for me, give us a strong majority, and
we will satisfy your expectations”. Today I regret to tell
workers in the Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean area and throughout Quebec
and Canada that the government told them a big lie.
The government said to them “Take my word and we will give you
what you want”.
However, it must be recognized that the saying “commitment made,
commitment retracted” says it all. I note that this government
does not want to respond to people's real expectations.
We have criticized this Bill C-2. I was at a meeting of some
one hundred thousand workers in the riding of Jonquière during
the election campaign. They had come to tell the government
that they wanted an independent employment insurance fund. They
said that, as they and employers paid into it, they should
administer it, because they contribute to it to provide
themselves with some security. The government turned a deaf
ear, but spoke to them saying “I do not hear you, but be assured
I will meet your expectations”.
The day after the election, naturally, as Félix Leclerc says “I
had forgotten your name, I had forgotten the promises I made to
you”. I am sad to note that the government is refusing, in the
voices of democratically elected representatives, to tell the
House and Canadians how much the workers in the riding of
Jonquière and the Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean region oppose this bill.
They will fight until they are backed into a corner to get the
ministers who visited us to honour their word.
At home, we keep our word, and people who keep their word have
only one word. Let the members of the government understand
that. When we sit in parliamentary committee, we in the Bloc
Quebecois will see that this bill meets the real expectations of
the workers.
Government members will have to honour their word.
We are simply holding our fire. We will be waiting for them in
committee. The real debate will take place there, and the real
people will be heard.
1815
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): It being 6.15 p.m.,
pursuant to order made earlier today it is my duty to interrupt
the proceedings and put forthwith every question necessary to
dispose of the second reading stage of the bill now before the
House.
[Translation]
Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): All those in favour of the
motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): All those opposed will
please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): In my opinion the yeas have
it.
Pursuant to the order made earlier today, a recorded division on
the proposed motion stands deferred until later today.
* * *
SUPPLY
ALLOTTED DAY—ETHICS COUNSELLOR
The House resumed from February 8 consideration of the
motion and of the amendment.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): Pursuant to order made
Thursday, February 8, 2001, the House will now proceed to the
taking of the deferred division on the business of supply.
Call in the members.
1835
[English]
And the bells having rung:
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, I believe you would
find consent to deem the amendment to the opposition motion
negatived on division.
The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent for the
proposition of the chief government whip that the amendment be
deemed defeated on division?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Amendment negatived)
1840
The Speaker: Accordingly the question is on the main
motion. All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Speaker: All those opposed will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Speaker: In my opinion the nays have it.
And more than five members having risen:
1850
[Translation]
(The House divided on the motion, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Ablonczy
| Anders
| Anderson
(Cypress Hills – Grasslands)
| Asselin
|
Bachand
(Richmond – Arthabaska)
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
|
Bergeron
| Bigras
| Blaikie
| Borotsik
|
Bourgeois
| Breitkreuz
| Brien
| Brison
|
Burton
| Cadman
| Cardin
| Casey
|
Casson
| Chatters
| Clark
| Comartin
|
Crête
| Cummins
| Dalphond - Guiral
| Davies
|
Day
| Desjarlais
| Desrochers
| Doyle
|
Dubé
| Duceppe
| Duncan
| Elley
|
Epp
| Fitzpatrick
| Forseth
| Fournier
|
Gagnon
(Champlain)
| Gagnon
(Québec)
| Gallant
| Gauthier
|
Girard - Bujold
| Godin
| Gouk
| Grewal
|
Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Grose
| Guay
| Guimond
|
Hanger
| Harris
| Hearn
| Herron
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hilstrom
| Hinton
| Johnston
|
Keddy
(South Shore)
| Kenney
(Calgary Southeast)
| Laframboise
| Lalonde
|
Lanctôt
| Lebel
| Lill
| Loubier
|
Lunn
(Saanich – Gulf Islands)
| Lunney
(Nanaimo – Alberni)
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Manning
|
Marceau
| Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
|
Mayfield
| McDonough
| McNally
| Ménard
|
Meredith
| Merrifield
| Moore
| Nystrom
|
Obhrai
| Pallister
| Pankiw
| Paquette
|
Penson
| Perron
| Peschisolido
| Picard
(Drummond)
|
Plamondon
| Proctor
| Rajotte
| Reid
(Lanark – Carleton)
|
Reynolds
| Ritz
| Robinson
| Rocheleau
|
Roy
| Sauvageau
| Skelton
| Sorenson
|
Spencer
| St - Hilaire
| Steckle
| Stoffer
|
Strahl
| Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Toews
|
Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean – Saguenay)
| Tremblay
(Rimouski - Neigette - et - la Mitis)
| Vellacott
| Venne
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| Wayne
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| White
(North Vancouver)
|
Williams
| Yelich – 122
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Allard
| Anderson
(Victoria)
|
Assad
| Assadourian
| Augustine
| Bagnell
|
Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
|
Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bertrand
|
Bevilacqua
| Binet
| Bonin
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
|
Byrne
| Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
|
Caplan
| Carignan
| Carroll
| Castonguay
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Charbonneau
| Coderre
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Cotler
| Cullen
|
Cuzner
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
| Duplain
|
Easter
| Eggleton
| Eyking
| Farrah
|
Finlay
| Fontana
| Fry
| Gagliano
|
Godfrey
| Goodale
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Guarnieri
| Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
|
Hubbard
| Ianno
| Jackson
| Jennings
|
Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Keyes
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Laliberte
| Lastewka
|
Lavigne
| LeBlanc
| Lee
| Longfield
|
MacAulay
| Macklin
| Mahoney
| Malhi
|
Maloney
| Manley
| Marcil
| Marleau
|
Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Matthews
| McCallum
| McCormick
|
McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
| McTeague
|
Mills
(Toronto – Danforth)
| Minna
| Mitchell
| Murphy
|
Myers
| Nault
| Neville
| Normand
|
O'Brien
(Labrador)
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Owen
|
Paradis
| Parrish
| Patry
| Peterson
|
Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pratt
| Price
|
Proulx
| Redman
| Reed
(Halton)
| Regan
|
Richardson
| Robillard
| Saada
| Savoy
|
Scherrer
| Scott
| Sgro
| Shepherd
|
Speller
| St. Denis
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
|
Stewart
| Szabo
| Thibault
(West Nova)
| Thibeault
(Saint - Lambert)
|
Tirabassi
| Tobin
| Tonks
| Torsney
|
Valeri
| Vanclief
| Whelan
| Wilfert
|
Wood – 145
|
PAIRED
Members
The Speaker: I declare the motion lost.
* * *
[English]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACT
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-2, an
act to amend the Employment Insurance Act and the Employment
Insurance (Fishing) Regulations, be read the second time and
referred to a committee.
The Speaker: Pursuant to order made earlier this day, the
House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred recorded
division at second reading stage of Bill C-2.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, if the House would
agree, I would propose that you seek unanimous consent that
members who voted on the previous motion be recorded as having
voted on the motion now before the House, with Liberal members
voting in favour.
The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to proceed in
this fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. John Reynolds: Mr. Speaker, we will be voting no to
the motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, the members of the Bloc
Quebecois vote against this motion.
Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Speaker, the members of the NDP vote yes on
this motion.
[English]
Mr. Rick Borotsik: Mr. Speaker, members of the
Progressive Conservative Party will vote yes to the motion.
The Speaker: I see we have a number of points of order. I
assume these are about voting.
Mr. Tom Wappel: Mr. Speaker, I am voting in favour of the
motion.
Mr. Ivan Grose: Mr. Speaker, I would like it recorded
that I am in favour of the motion.
Mrs. Brenda Chamberlain: Mr. Speaker, I am voting in
favour of the motion.
Mr. Janko Peric: Mr. Speaker, I am honoured to vote in
favour of the motion.
Mr. Roger Gallaway: Mr. Speaker, I am voting in favour of
the motion.
Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: Mr. Speaker, I want to be recorded as
voting yes to the motion.
Mr. Andrew Telegdi: Mr. Speaker, I am voting in favour of
the motion.
Mr. Paul Steckle: Mr. Speaker, let it be recorded that I
am voting with the government on the motion.
Mr. Leon Benoit: Mr. Speaker, I would like to be recorded
as voting against the motion.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, I would like to point
out that the Minister of Industry is not here for this vote. He
was for the previous one, so he should not be recorded as voting.
1855
[Translation]
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Allard
| Anderson
(Victoria)
|
Assad
| Assadourian
| Augustine
| Bachand
(Richmond – Arthabaska)
|
Bagnell
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
|
Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bennett
|
Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Binet
| Blaikie
|
Bonin
| Borotsik
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
|
Brison
| Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
|
Byrne
| Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
|
Caplan
| Carignan
| Carroll
| Casey
|
Castonguay
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Charbonneau
| Clark
| Coderre
| Collenette
|
Comartin
| Comuzzi
| Cotler
| Cullen
|
Cuzner
| Davies
| Desjarlais
| DeVillers
|
Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Doyle
| Dromisky
|
Drouin
| Duhamel
| Duplain
| Easter
|
Eggleton
| Eyking
| Farrah
| Finlay
|
Fontana
| Fry
| Gagliano
| Gallaway
|
Godfrey
| Godin
| Goodale
| Graham
|
Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Harb
|
Harvard
| Harvey
| Hearn
| Herron
|
Hubbard
| Ianno
| Jackson
| Jennings
|
Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Keddy
(South Shore)
| Keyes
|
Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Laliberte
|
Lastewka
| Lavigne
| LeBlanc
| Lee
|
Lill
| Longfield
| MacAulay
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
|
Macklin
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Manley
| Marcil
| Marleau
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
|
Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Matthews
| McCallum
| McCormick
|
McDonough
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
|
McTeague
| Mills
(Toronto – Danforth)
| Minna
| Mitchell
|
Murphy
| Myers
| Nault
| Neville
|
Normand
| Nystrom
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
|
O'Reilly
| Owen
| Paradis
| Parrish
|
Patry
| Peric
| Peterson
| Phinney
|
Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pratt
| Price
| Proctor
|
Proulx
| Redman
| Reed
(Halton)
| Regan
|
Richardson
| Robillard
| Robinson
| Saada
|
Savoy
| Scherrer
| Scott
| Sgro
|
Shepherd
| Speller
| St. Denis
| St - Jacques
|
St - Julien
| Steckle
| Stewart
| Stoffer
|
Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibault
(West Nova)
| Thibeault
(Saint - Lambert)
|
Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
| Tirabassi
| Tonks
| Torsney
|
Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
| Wappel
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| Wayne
| Whelan
| Wilfert
|
Wood
– 177
|
NAYS
Members
Ablonczy
| Anders
| Anderson
(Cypress Hills – Grasslands)
| Asselin
|
Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
| Benoit
|
Bergeron
| Bigras
| Bourgeois
| Breitkreuz
|
Brien
| Burton
| Cadman
| Cardin
|
Casson
| Chatters
| Crête
| Cummins
|
Dalphond - Guiral
| Day
| Desrochers
| Dubé
|
Duceppe
| Duncan
| Elley
| Epp
|
Fitzpatrick
| Forseth
| Fournier
| Gagnon
(Champlain)
|
Gagnon
(Québec)
| Gallant
| Gauthier
| Girard - Bujold
|
Gouk
| Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Guay
|
Guimond
| Hanger
| Harris
| Hill
(Macleod)
|
Hilstrom
| Hinton
| Johnston
| Kenney
(Calgary Southeast)
|
Laframboise
| Lalonde
| Lanctôt
| Lebel
|
Loubier
| Lunn
(Saanich – Gulf Islands)
| Lunney
(Nanaimo – Alberni)
| Manning
|
Marceau
| Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Mayfield
|
McNally
| Ménard
| Meredith
| Merrifield
|
Moore
| Obhrai
| Pallister
| Pankiw
|
Paquette
| Penson
| Perron
| Peschisolido
|
Picard
(Drummond)
| Plamondon
| Rajotte
| Reid
(Lanark – Carleton)
|
Reynolds
| Ritz
| Rocheleau
| Roy
|
Sauvageau
| Skelton
| Sorenson
| Spencer
|
St - Hilaire
| Strahl
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Toews
|
Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean – Saguenay)
| Tremblay
(Rimouski - Neigette - et - la Mitis)
| Vellacott
| Venne
|
White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| White
(North Vancouver)
| Williams
| Yelich
– 96
|
PAIRED
Members
The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.
(Bill read the second time and referred
to a committee)
* * *
[English]
FINANCIAL CONSUMER AGENCY OF CANADA ACT
The House resumed from February 12 consideration of the motion
that Bill C-8, an act to establish the financial consumer agency
of Canada and to amend certain acts in relation to financial
institutions, be read the second time and referred to a
committee.
The Speaker: The House will now proceed to the taking of
the deferred recorded division on the motion at second reading of
Bill C-8.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, if the House would
agree, I would propose again you seek unanimous consent that the
members who voted on the previous motion be recorded as having
voted on the motion now before the House, with Liberal members
voting in favour, including the Minister of Industry who is back
in the House.
The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to proceed in
this fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. John Reynolds: Mr. Speaker, members of the Canadian
Alliance are voting yes to this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, the members of the Bloc
Quebecois oppose this motion.
[English]
Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Speaker, members of the NDP are
voting no to this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Rick Borotsik: Mr. Speaker, the members of the Progressive
Conservative Party vote yes to this motion.
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Ablonczy
| Adams
| Alcock
| Allard
|
Anders
| Anderson
(Cypress Hills – Grasslands)
| Anderson
(Victoria)
| Assad
|
Assadourian
| Augustine
| Bachand
(Richmond – Arthabaska)
| Bagnell
|
Bailey
| Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
|
Bélair
| Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bennett
|
Benoit
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Binet
|
Bonin
| Borotsik
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
|
Breitkreuz
| Brison
| Brown
| Bryden
|
Bulte
| Burton
| Byrne
| Caccia
|
Cadman
| Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
|
Carignan
| Carroll
| Casey
| Casson
|
Castonguay
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Charbonneau
| Chatters
| Clark
| Coderre
|
Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Cotler
| Cullen
|
Cummins
| Cuzner
| Day
| DeVillers
|
Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Doyle
| Dromisky
|
Drouin
| Duhamel
| Duncan
| Duplain
|
Easter
| Eggleton
| Elley
| Epp
|
Eyking
| Farrah
| Finlay
| Fitzpatrick
|
Fontana
| Forseth
| Fry
| Gagliano
|
Gallant
| Gallaway
| Godfrey
| Goodale
|
Gouk
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grewal
|
Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Grose
| Guarnieri
| Hanger
|
Harb
| Harris
| Harvard
| Harvey
|
Hearn
| Herron
| Hill
(Macleod)
| Hilstrom
|
Hinton
| Hubbard
| Ianno
| Jackson
|
Jennings
| Johnston
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
|
Keddy
(South Shore)
| Kenney
(Calgary Southeast)
| Keyes
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
| Laliberte
| Lastewka
|
Lavigne
| LeBlanc
| Lee
| Longfield
|
Lunn
(Saanich – Gulf Islands)
| Lunney
(Nanaimo – Alberni)
| MacAulay
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
|
Macklin
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Manley
| Manning
| Marcil
| Mark
|
Marleau
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Matthews
|
Mayfield
| McCallum
| McCormick
| McGuire
|
McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
| McNally
| McTeague
|
Meredith
| Merrifield
| Mills
(Toronto – Danforth)
| Minna
|
Mitchell
| Moore
| Murphy
| Myers
|
Nault
| Neville
| Normand
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
|
O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Obhrai
| Owen
|
Pallister
| Pankiw
| Paradis
| Parrish
|
Patry
| Penson
| Peric
| Peschisolido
|
Peterson
| Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pratt
|
Price
| Proulx
| Rajotte
| Redman
|
Reed
(Halton)
| Regan
| Reid
(Lanark – Carleton)
| Reynolds
|
Richardson
| Ritz
| Robillard
| Saada
|
Savoy
| Scherrer
| Scott
| Sgro
|
Shepherd
| Skelton
| Sorenson
| Speller
|
Spencer
| St. Denis
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
|
Steckle
| Stewart
| Strahl
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibault
(West Nova)
| Thibeault
(Saint - Lambert)
| Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
|
Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Tirabassi
| Tobin
| Toews
|
Tonks
| Torsney
| Ur
| Valeri
|
Vanclief
| Vellacott
| Wappel
| Wayne
|
Whelan
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| White
(North Vancouver)
| Wilfert
|
Williams
| Wood
| Yelich – 223
|
NAYS
Members
Asselin
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bellehumeur
| Bergeron
|
Bigras
| Blaikie
| Bourgeois
| Brien
|
Cardin
| Comartin
| Crête
| Dalphond - Guiral
|
Davies
| Desjarlais
| Desrochers
| Dubé
|
Duceppe
| Fournier
| Gagnon
(Champlain)
| Gagnon
(Québec)
|
Gauthier
| Girard - Bujold
| Godin
| Guay
|
Guimond
| Laframboise
| Lalonde
| Lanctôt
|
Lebel
| Lill
| Loubier
| Marceau
|
Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| McDonough
| Ménard
| Nystrom
|
Paquette
| Perron
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Plamondon
|
Proctor
| Robinson
| Rocheleau
| Roy
|
Sauvageau
| St - Hilaire
| Stoffer
| Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean – Saguenay)
|
Tremblay
(Rimouski - Neigette - et - la Mitis)
| Venne
| Wasylycia - Leis – 51
|
PAIRED
Members
The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.
(Bill read the second time and referred
to a committee)
* * *
[English]
SPEECH FROM THE THRONE
RESUMPTION OF DEBATE ON ADDRESS IN REPLY
The House resumed from February 9 consideration of the motion
for an address to Her Excellency the Governor General in reply to
her speech at the opening of the session.
The Speaker: Pursuant to order made on Friday, February
9, 2001, the House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred
recorded division on the motion relating to the Address in Reply
to the Speech from the Throne.
[Translation]
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, if you were to seek it,
the House would give its consent that members who voted on the
previous motion be recorded as having voted on the motion now
before the House, with Liberal members being recorded as voting
yea.
The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to proceed in this
fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
[English]
Mr. John Reynolds: Mr. Speaker, members of the Canadian
Alliance Party will vote a resounding no to this motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, the members of the Bloc
Quebecois will vote against this motion.
Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Speaker, the members of the NDP will vote
against this motion.
[English]
Mr. Rick Borotsik: Mr. Speaker, members of the
Progressive Conservative Party vote no to this motion.
1900
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Allard
| Anderson
(Victoria)
|
Assad
| Assadourian
| Augustine
| Bagnell
|
Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
|
Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bertrand
|
Bevilacqua
| Binet
| Bonin
| Boudria
|
Bradshaw
| Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
|
Byrne
| Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
|
Caplan
| Carignan
| Carroll
| Castonguay
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Charbonneau
|
Coderre
| Collenette
| Comuzzi
| Cotler
|
Cullen
| Cuzner
| DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
|
Dion
| Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
|
Duplain
| Easter
| Eggleton
| Eyking
|
Farrah
| Finlay
| Fontana
| Fry
|
Gagliano
| Gallaway
| Godfrey
| Goodale
|
Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
| Guarnieri
|
Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
| Hubbard
|
Ianno
| Jackson
| Jennings
| Jordan
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Keyes
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
| Knutson
|
Kraft Sloan
| Laliberte
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
LeBlanc
| Lee
| Longfield
| MacAulay
|
Macklin
| Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
|
Manley
| Marcil
| Marleau
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
|
Matthews
| McCallum
| McCormick
| McGuire
|
McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
| McTeague
| Mills
(Toronto – Danforth)
|
Minna
| Mitchell
| Murphy
| Myers
|
Nault
| Neville
| Normand
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
|
O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Owen
| Paradis
|
Parrish
| Patry
| Peric
| Peterson
|
Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pratt
| Price
|
Proulx
| Redman
| Reed
(Halton)
| Regan
|
Richardson
| Robillard
| Saada
| Savoy
|
Scherrer
| Scott
| Sgro
| Shepherd
|
Speller
| St. Denis
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
|
Steckle
| Stewart
| Szabo
| Telegdi
|
Thibault
(West Nova)
| Thibeault
(Saint - Lambert)
| Tirabassi
| Tobin
|
Tonks
| Torsney
| Ur
| Valeri
|
Vanclief
| Wappel
| Whelan
| Wilfert
|
Wood – 153
|
NAYS
Members
Ablonczy
| Anders
| Anderson
(Cypress Hills – Grasslands)
| Asselin
|
Bachand
(Richmond – Arthabaska)
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
|
Benoit
| Bergeron
| Bigras
| Blaikie
|
Borotsik
| Bourgeois
| Breitkreuz
| Brien
|
Brison
| Burton
| Cadman
| Cardin
|
Casey
| Casson
| Chatters
| Clark
|
Comartin
| Crête
| Cummins
| Dalphond - Guiral
|
Davies
| Day
| Desjarlais
| Desrochers
|
Doyle
| Dubé
| Duceppe
| Duncan
|
Elley
| Epp
| Fitzpatrick
| Forseth
|
Fournier
| Gagnon
(Champlain)
| Gagnon
(Québec)
| Gallant
|
Gauthier
| Girard - Bujold
| Godin
| Gouk
|
Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Guay
| Guimond
|
Hanger
| Harris
| Hearn
| Herron
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hilstrom
| Hinton
| Johnston
|
Keddy
(South Shore)
| Kenney
(Calgary Southeast)
| Laframboise
| Lalonde
|
Lanctôt
| Lebel
| Lill
| Loubier
|
Lunn
(Saanich – Gulf Islands)
| Lunney
(Nanaimo – Alberni)
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Manning
|
Marceau
| Mark
| Martin
(Esquimalt – Juan de Fuca)
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
|
Mayfield
| McDonough
| McNally
| Ménard
|
Meredith
| Merrifield
| Moore
| Nystrom
|
Obhrai
| Pallister
| Pankiw
| Paquette
|
Penson
| Perron
| Peschisolido
| Picard
(Drummond)
|
Plamondon
| Proctor
| Rajotte
| Reid
(Lanark – Carleton)
|
Reynolds
| Ritz
| Robinson
| Rocheleau
|
Roy
| Sauvageau
| Skelton
| Sorenson
|
Spencer
| St - Hilaire
| Stoffer
| Strahl
|
Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Toews
| Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean – Saguenay)
|
Tremblay
(Rimouski - Neigette - et - la Mitis)
| Vellacott
| Venne
| Wasylycia - Leis
|
Wayne
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| White
(North Vancouver)
| Williams
|
Yelich – 121
|
PAIRED
Members
The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.
[Translation]
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.) moved:
The Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the
motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Motion agreed to)
EMERGENCY DEBATE
[English]
AGRICULTURE
The Deputy Speaker: The House will now proceed to the
consideration of a motion to adjourn the House for the purpose of
discussing a specific and important matter requiring urgent
consideration, namely, the agricultural policy.
Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC) moved:
He said: Mr. Speaker, first I thank the Speaker for allowing
this very important debate on agriculture as we all recognize
that agriculture is going through some very strenuous times
today. Also, I will be splitting my time with the hon. member
for Calgary Centre.
Too often members of society outside the agricultural sector
have a tendency to believe that farmers and agricultural
producers have a tendency to cry wolf. Perhaps they should
think—
Mr. Gerald Keddy: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. With all due respect to my hon. colleague, there are
several meetings going on here between members of parliament that
should take place behind the curtain. This is an extremely
important issue that needs to be discussed in the House and
should be listened to.
The Speaker: I could not agree more with the hon. member
for South Shore. I have tried to encourage hon. members to
refrain from carrying on their discussions in the House. The hon.
member for Brandon—Souris has a very powerful voice and one can
hear him but they are distracting. I urge hon. members to carry
on their conversations outside the House so we can hear the
debate.
Mr. Rick Borotsik: Mr. Speaker, I know you have control
of the House as you have had for any number of years. I do
appreciate that.
This is a very important issue, not only to my constituents but
to constituents across our great country who work the land, who
plant the seeds and who harvest those seeds to make sure that we
as Canadians have a reliable, cheap food supply.
I will base my discussion on three tenets. Canadians are
continually asking me why agriculture finds itself in the
position it is in today. In order to answer that we must
recognize a number of things.
The first problem is that there is a very unlevel playing field
in the world today. There is a very unlevel playing field in
the subsidies that are being provided by our major trading
partners, the European Union and the United States of America.
1905
Canadians have not been given the same opportunity to compete on
a level playing field.
In 1997 for every dollar Canadians spent on farm support,
Americans spent $2.06, the European Union spent $2.14 and Japan
spent $3.47. There is a terrible disparity between the
agricultural support systems of other jurisdictions and that of
Canada.
Canada spends .78% of its GDP on agricultural support while the
U.S. spends 1.07% of its GDP on agricultural support. We do not
have a level playing field with respect to world subsidies.
The second problem in agriculture right now is the fact that
costs are going up at an alarming rate. It costs farmers and
producers substantially more to put in a crop today than it did
yesterday.
We all recognize that gasoline and fuel costs have gone up quite
dramatically. The government recognized that by giving Canadians
an energy rebate. The cost of putting gasoline into tractors,
combines and other farm equipment went from 37 cents a litre to
over 50 cents a litre for the crop year starting in 2000. Those
costs are horrendous considering the number of acres farmed
across the country.
One of the major inputs to produce a crop is fertilizer. One of
the major components in raw materials such as fertilizer is
natural gas. We recognize that the cost of natural gas has
increased substantially over the last while. Nitrogen has in
some cases gone from 16 cents a pound to 40 cents a pound this
spring.
That may not mean a lot to those who live in downtown Toronto,
Vancouver or Ottawa, but when a crop is put in the ground those
inputs are required in order to get a yield. The costs cannot be
recovered. Unfair subsidies and the cost of production have gone
up dramatically.
The third problem is the value of the commodity coming back to
the producer. In 1996-97 a producer received $5.50 a bushel for
wheat. Today that same bushel of wheat is returning $2.45. If
we look at the increase in input costs, at the unfair subsidies
and at the commodity values that come back to the producer, how
can a farmer stay in business?
Canola, a crop that I see every day of my life with its
wonderful yellow flowers growing out of the ground, returned $10
a bushel in 1996-97. That same cash crop today is now $5.18. The
value of the commodity has dropped dramatically.
Half my time in my constituency is spent dealing with
agricultural problems. People 60 years of age, farmers who have
been in the industry all their lives, have come into my office
and said that they will not put in a crop this year. They own
their land, they are 60 years of age, and they are tired of
wasting their money every year. They not prepared to do it
any more. Farmers are walking away. They are putting the land
back into an inventory and renting it out.
A friend of mine who lives in a certain area just south of my
city said that there are 50 more quarter sections of land
for rent this year than there were last year. The producers are
walking away and trying to rent land. Land values are coming
down. Rental values are coming down. Those individuals,
unfortunately, are no longer part of our agricultural society. We
lost 21,200 farmers last year alone.
There are 21,200 fewer farmers this year than last year, and
believe me, when people say no, those are the facts. That is the
truth. Let us quit sticking our heads in the sand. Let us put
support systems in place so that our farmers can stay on the
land.
1910
The last question I have before I turn the discussion over to
the right hon. member for Calgary Centre is, what can and what
should we do?
On that side of the House prior to the election, the government
decided and had the political will to give Canadians an energy
rebate. Somehow $1.3 billion was found and distributed with the
snap of a finger. I will not argue whether it was right or
wrong, only that there was a political will to do it.
There are dollars available in government coffers right now.
There has to be a political will to help farmers through the next
planting season. Those dollars can be distributed in any number
of ways.
I do not want to hear that it is countervailable or that there
is a trade issue here. We have $2 billion of wiggle room in the
WTO agreement we negotiated with the United States. We have the
room. We have the money. We need the will.
We need two things. We need an immediate cash infusion into the
agricultural community. Then we need something more. We need a
vision and an understanding as to where agriculture is going in
the country. We need a vision. We need a long term support
program. We need something farmers can latch onto to give them
hope for the future.
I have a 40 year old cousin who has farmed all his life. He is
asking himself whether he should continue or quit farming. He
needs a glimmer of hope to be able to continue to farm. He wants
to continue but he wants the opportunity to provide his family a
livelihood. He does not want to lose money any more, year after
year after year, and have a government that is not prepared to
assist.
I thank the Speaker of the House for allowing my constituents to
have their say on what is happening with respect to agriculture
and to their communities. It is not only agriculture that is in
jeopardy, it is also the communities that feed off agriculture.
Canada is losing its rural communities and it is up to the
government to give them the opportunity, the hope, the assistance
and the support they need to continue in agriculture.
Right Hon. Joe Clark (Calgary Centre, PC): Mr. Speaker, I
thank the House and my colleague for Brandon—Souris for taking
the initiative to have this essential debate.
This is not just a debate about lives and livelihoods, although
it is that. It is also a debate about the security of the
country, the food security of the country. We face a situation
in which our capacity not only to be a supplier to the world but
to look after our own interests is increasingly being
jeopardized.
I heard a moment ago a dispute from one of the Liberal members
questioning the figures put forward by my colleague from
Brandon—Souris about the number of farmers who are off the land
in prairie Canada, my part of Canada. The figure I have is
22,000.
Whether it is 22,000, 21,000 or 20,000, far too many Canadians
are going off the land now. This is not just an arid statistic.
This is a reality that is changing the nature of western Canada,
the nature of Ontario and the nature of the constituency I had
the honour to represent so briefly last fall, Kings—Hants in
Nova Scotia. It is also putting at risk Canada's capacity to be
an agricultural producer and a country that can grow the food it
requires and use that food for technology in the future.
I am not here to argue the numbers of people who are going off
the land. I am arguing that the House of Commons and the
government has to pay attention now to this crisis. There has to
be a response immediately. That is not because there were trucks
and tractors on the streets in Cornwall the other day. It is
because there is a very real threat to the capacity of Canada to
maintain its food producing ability, and it extends right across
the nation.
There is a need for an immediate cash infusion, and I emphasize
the word immediate.
1915
Farmers need to know now if there will be money available to
them from the government. They do not have the luxury of
waiting. They are arranging right now, as we speak in debate
here, visits to their bankers so they can arrange a line of
credit in March and April in order to be on the
fields in May.
If we continue to delay and the government does not act, more
farms will shut down across Ontario, the prairies, Quebec and the
Atlantic provinces. That is the crisis we are facing. There is
a need now for the minister of agriculture to stand in the House
and indicate that not only will there be an immediate cash
infusion but, as we move beyond emergency aid, that there will
also be a long term program.
We proposed in the last election campaign a program based upon
the old principles of GRIP. We did not win the election, but let
me say to the House that the principles of that program, which
were criticized at the time, have proven themselves to be a basis
on which we can provide some security to agriculture in the
future. If it is not a program of the kind we proposed, there at
least has to be, for the long term interest of the country,
immediate action now to deal with cash infusion quickly and to
ensure that there is long term action on agriculture.
[Translation]
It is not just about one region of the country. Farmers across
Canada are affected. We saw the protests on the Hill. Yesterday,
a rally was held in Cornwall, Ontario. Farmers blocked highways
so that they would be listened to. The concerns about the future
of family farms are very real.
On February 9, the provincial ministers of agriculture met in
Regina and agreed that the financial situation of farmers is
precarious and that they desperately need help from Ottawa.
It is anticipated that Manitoba farmers will face a 19% drop in
their realized net income for the year 2000, compared to the
average for 1995-96. In Saskatchewan, the drop will be 56%, while
farmers in Prince Edward Island will probably face a 60%
reduction in their realized net income, again compared to the
average for 1995-96.
These forecasts are particularly disturbing for Canadian farmers
trying to compete with producers abroad who benefit from high
levels of subsidies.
[English]
The other day in the House, before the Prime Minister went to
see President Bush, he made a clear commitment to the House and
to farmers across the country that he would do something about
the unacceptably high level of subsidy that the American
government puts into their farm producers.
I do not know what results have occurred, but I say to the Prime
Minister, in his absence, that if he is unable to persuade the
Americans to reduce their subsidies, and the evidence is he
cannot get them to bring theirs down, then he has a clear
obligation to ensure that there is financial support to Canadian
farmers who are suffering in comparison, who are not getting the
help from their government that American producers are getting
from their government.
Can this be done? Do we have the money to do that? Let us put
it into context. Do we have the money to protect one of the
basic industries of Canada and stop it from the gradual slide
toward extinction, which we are now seeing? Yes, we have the
money for that if we have the will. Do we have the right under
the World Trade Organization? Yes, we have the right.
Officials of the Government of Canada have made it very clear
that there is at least $2 billion worth of what they call wiggle
room, which would allow us to put money into Canadian agriculture
in the same way that countries with whom our producers have to
compete put money into their agriculture.
1920
I will wind down. I am just a city boy from Calgary, but one of
the things I learned in Calgary, in a city centre constituency,
is that even though we do not grow the grain and produce the
product right there in the city, the economy of my city depends
upon the strength of agriculture. The economy and security of
people right across the country depend upon the strength of
agriculture.
Agriculture used to be a dominant industry in Canada. It has
slipped away from the centre of public attention. That has to
stop and we in the House of Commons have to make it stop. It is
not a question of food, although being able to ensure that there
is a safe and adequate supply of food is of fundamental
importance. It is also a question of the other things that we
could do with agriculture.
There is not an industry in the nation that has been more finely
tuned to high technology, to innovation, than the agricultural
industry. It is not an industry of the past. It is very much an
industry of the Canadian future, unless we snuff it out and let
it drift away. The government has been letting it drift away by
its failure to bring in either the kind of emergency assistance
or the kind of long range planning that is needed.
We speak often about quality of life. We speak often about the
importance of community. This is a nation of values, and some of
the values of our nation are values deeply rooted in rural
Canada. Rural Canada, while it is becoming more and more diverse
now, had its inspiration from a reliance upon resource industries
and upon agriculture.
If we let the industry fail as is happening now, we run the risk
of changing the very nature of the country and of undermining
values that are fundamentally important. I ask the minister and
I ask the government to act immediately to get money into the
system for people who need to see their bankers tomorrow, and
then to bring before the House long range programs that will
introduce a degree of stability into Canadian agriculture to let
us be as proud and productive a producing country in the future
as we have been in the past.
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to say at the start that I
will be sharing my time with the member for Parry Sound—Muskoka.
I appreciate the opportunity to make some comments in the House
of Commons tonight about this important sector of the Canadian
economy and the very important subject we are talking about in
reference to it.
First, I state unequivocally that our commitment to Canadian
farmers is strong. The government understands and appreciates
the immeasurable contribution that farmers make to our lives and
to all our communities. Whether we are in urban Canada or in
rural Canada they provide all of us with a safe supply of
nutritious and high quality food at reasonable prices.
They generate domestic and international sales of more than $100
billion a year. More than 14% of Canadian jobs, which is one in
seven working Canadians, are in the agriculture and the agrifood
sector. It accounts for about 9% of our gross domestic product.
It is a huge sector. It is one that is highly productive.
Canadian farmers, as has been said and I agree, are very
efficient. Their products are admired the world over. Productive
and efficient as our farmers are, that does not protect them from
the whims of mother nature and the vagaries of global markets.
As a former farmer I know all too well the many aspects of
farming that are beyond the control of any individual or any
government.
Canadian farmers face a number of challenges, whether they be
weather, world markets, the pace of globalization, environmental
issues or growing consumer concerns about the food they eat. I
could go on. Front and centre right now, however, is farm
income, particularly in the grains and oilseed sector. Because
of overproduction in some parts of the world, some of it stemming
from massive trade distorting subsidies in other countries, world
grain prices are low.
Our grain farmers are bearing the brunt of those low prices. We
are working hard to address this situation in a number of ways,
some of which I will elaborate on in a minute.
1925
However I would be remiss not to point out that other sectors in
our agriculture industry are doing reasonably well, such as the
dairy sector, the livestock sector and the poultry sector.
Nevertheless, for those farmers who are grappling with serious
income shortfalls, the government has worked and will continue to
work with farm organizations and provinces.
In the last five years alone we have, along with the provinces,
invested $7.1 billion to help stabilize farm incomes in safety
net programs. The federal contribution to whole farm safety nets
will be $1.1 billion a year over the next three years. Coupled
with the provinces, that means $5.5 billion in safety nets alone
over the next three years. That is almost double what was set
aside when I became Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food in June
1997.
Very few of the members opposite have had the experience of
getting all provincial ministers or a group of provincial
governments on board for a national initiative. Last summer we
were able to get all 10 provinces to sign on to our farm safety
net agreement. It was a real and meaningful achievement.
However that is not the end of the story. We continue to work
hard for farmers who are in need. I am meeting with provincial
agriculture ministers next month and, as members of the House
know very well, under the Canadian constitution the provinces and
the federal government share the responsibility of agriculture.
We need to do more and we will do more. The government
recognizes that if our agriculture and agrifood industry is to
prosper and grow then, as we said in the throne speech, we must
move beyond crisis management.
While we need to address the immediate farm income situation, we
also need to examine this challenge in a broader context. The
reputation of Canadian agriculture and agrifood products rests on
consistency and high quality. Having talked to customers around
the world I can say that this reputation for quality is virtually
unmatched by any other country.
Increasingly customers both in Canada and around the world are
asking more questions about the source of their food and about
the relationship between its production and the environment, for
example. They have the right to ask those questions. If
consumers for some reason were to lose confidence in our products
everything else would become moot. In agriculture, no less than
any other business endeavour, the customer is absolutely key.
Therefore we must continue to hone and improve our food
inspection system, which I am proud to say is one of the best in
the world. We must keep it that way. As we work to address the
income problems of some of our producers, we must also tackle the
very real environmental challenges inherent in farming, not the
least of which is ensuring that the sustainability of our
precious water and soil resources is maintained.
To be able to do these things we must remain focused as well on
research and innovation. In their determination to maintain
their worldwide reputation for excellence and efficiency Canadian
farmers are constantly seeking out and adopting the newest
technologies and practices. Research, therefore, is no less
important to agriculture than it is to the high tech and
communications sectors. Last year we spent $250 million which
was dedicated federal money for research conducted in our 19
research centres across Canada.
We are also working extremely hard on the international trade
front and will continue to do so. Over the past decade Canada's
agriculture and agrifood exports have almost doubled. We are an
exporting nation. We produce far more than we can eat and use in
Canada. They have almost doubled to $20 billion a year.
1930
At the World Trade Organization and at every opportunity we have
to meet at all levels with representatives or individuals of
agricultural and trading nations. Through our international fora
such as the Cairns Group we are working to improve access for
Canadian products abroad and to change international trading
rules so that our farmers do not suffer at the hands of other
countries' farm subsidy policies.
As part of our position at the WTO, we will also maintain our
right to operate domestic marketing systems such as the Canadian
Wheat Board and the supply management systems that have served
Canadians well. It is the high farm subsidies provided by some
of our trading partners that have contributed to overproduction
and depressed prices in commodities such as grain. I want to
point out that the Government of Canada's WTO negotiating
position was not arrived at in isolation. Our approach to
addressing this was to discuss it with other countries. It was
also done in collaboration with the industry, and I pledge to
continue that consultation as we go forward.
In closing, I want to say that farm income is not an issue in
isolation from all other issues facing farmers. It is an
important one and one that we need to continue to address.
However, the other issues also include: environmental
sustainability; food safety; maintaining existing markets and
finding new markets; having access to the best science and
technology and the best minds available; and adapting to today's
realities.
The government recognizes that these issues, like farming
itself, are extremely complex and that we have to be more
proactive, that we have to do more, now more than ever. We have
to work with the provinces to ensure that our farmers are able to
ride out the storms, whether they be caused by economic forces or
by forces of nature.
The government and I, as minister, pledge to give that our best
effort, to seek all the resources we possibly can, and to give it
the highest possible priority in order to focus on the farm
income issue and all of the other issues in the complex
agricultural industry. Our farmers deserve no less.
Hon. Andy Mitchell (Secretary of State (Rural
Development)(Federal Economic Development Initiative for Northern
Ontario), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, allow me to say how pleased I
am to see a colleague from northern Ontario in the chair.
Congratulations on your appointment to your position.
I am particularly pleased to have an opportunity this evening in
this special debate to talk about the issues of agriculture and
agricultural producers, as well as to talk about the importance
of the broader issues in the way that they impact on rural Canada
and rural Canadians.
We are having a discussion tonight, but there are some things
that I do not think are up for debate. One of them is the
importance of the agricultural sector to Canada, to the Canadian
economy and particularly to rural Canada. I do not think there
is any question about that. The other thing I do not think there
is really much debate about is the fact that there are serious
challenges facing the agricultural sector and, as a result of
that, challenges that are faced by rural Canada and rural
Canadians in general.
I am pleased that we have the opportunity to have this
discussion tonight and to have members from all sides of the
House participate in the discussion. As the evening goes on and
we listen to members from both sides of the House, I hope that we
are going to hear suggestions, possible solutions and strategies.
I do not think that members of the House and Canadians watching
are really overly interested in people pointing fingers and
laying blame. There may be a place and a time for that, but what
we are all about in the House, and what I hope the debate is all
about tonight, is finding solutions for our agricultural
industry, finding the ways that we as a government, that we
collectively as members of parliament, can come together, as we
need to, to find solutions. I hope that is what this debate is
all about.
As the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food pointed out in his
comments, a lot has been done in the last several years with
respect to responding to the needs of our agricultural producers.
The minister talked about the substantial increases in safety
nets that have been put in place since he took over the
portfolio. He talked about the agreement with the provinces.
It was a very important step to bring all 10 provinces together
with the federal government to sign an agreement on agriculture.
It was an agreement that saw no province receive less funding and
several provinces receive increased funding as part of that
envelope, and of course last year we saw additional support
specifically targeted to Manitoba and Saskatchewan.
1935
As important as agriculture is, and it is extremely important,
it is part of a broader context of rural Canada and rural
Canadians. It is part of a very special part of the nation.
Rural Canada is part of the social fabric of the nation. There
are members on all sides of the House who come from rural Canada.
It is special and unique place, a place of very special
traditions and very special institutions.
When we talk about the agricultural industry, I believe we need
to talk as well in the broader context of securing the future of
rural Canada. It is important to see the scope and the breadth
of rural Canada. Yes, it includes those rural agricultural
communities of Saskatchewan and it includes the dairy producers
of eastern Ontario. However, rural Canada also includes the
mining communities in northern Ontario, as you know very well,
Mr. Speaker, and the communities in the interior of British
Columbia that depend on forestry or the outports of Newfoundland
that depend on fisheries. Rural Canada is, in a large sense,
based on our resource industries, including agriculture, and we
need to deal not only with agriculture but with all of those
issues that are faced by resource industries and by those
communities that are dependent on resources for their livelihood.
I believe there is a very clear commitment from the government
for dealing with rural Canada. The creation and existence of the
position that I hold, that of Secretary of State for Rural
Development, is something that had not existed in the government
before the Prime Minister made the appointment. It is a belief
that we can as a government, that we should as a government, that
it is imperative as a government for us to work on the issues of
rural Canada and to understand that the challenges faced by rural
Canadians, although they share many of the same issues with urban
Canadians, are different.
We have to deal with the issue of geography and what that means
in delivering services over large distances. We have to deal
with the issue of population density and what that means toward
attracting investment into rural areas. We have to deal with the
whole issue of the cyclical nature of our resource based
industries and what that means in terms of the public policy that
has to be pursued in order to sustain those communities.
That is what we need to do as a parliament to deal with those
special circumstances that are faced by rural Canadians. That is
a large part of what this debate is. It is about taking a
particular industry that is predominant in rural Canada,
understanding that it faces challenges that are specific to rural
Canada and to that industry, and responding in a way that makes
sense of those challenges.
In terms of dealing with rural Canada we have to make sure of
two things. First, we have to make sure that we provide rural
Canada and rural Canadians with the tools they need to deal with
those challenges. Second, we have empower those communities with
the ability to use those tools in a way that makes sense for
them.
The government has provided a large number of tools to rural
Canada and rural Canadians over the years. Take a look at the
infrastructure program, the $2.65 billion. The fact is, when
those agreements were signed with the provinces there was a
specific amount that was set aside for the rural communities in
those various provinces.
Look at the community futures program, which is a program that
operates strictly in rural Canada. It is there to provide
assistance for community development. It also provides
assistance to ensure a strong and vibrant small business sector
in those communities. There was a $90 million commitment in the
last budget of the federal government to ensure that those
community futures programs that operate in rural Canada are
sustained and are able to do the work they need to do in order to
help those communities.
1940
There are several other tools that I could describe, but those
are two very important ones. There are several others that are
provided: the community access program, the CARTT program under
agriculture and, as I mentioned earlier, the support that is
being provided for farm incomes.
It is also important, as we deal with rural Canada and rural
Canadians, that we empower communities to use those tools. That
is why it is important in the approach that we take as the
federal government to ensure something that we call the bottom up
approach, one that ensures that communities themselves are
empowered to undertake the decisions they need to take to sustain
themselves.
It is an understanding that not every rural community is the
same and that the challenges that are faced by a rural community
in Saskatchewan are different from the ones that you and I face,
Mr. Speaker, in northern Ontario and different again from what
some of my colleagues face in Yukon, in central Ontario and in
other parts of Canada.
That is why it is important to use a bottom up process, one that
allows communities to set their priorities, one that allows
communities to establish exactly the strategies they want to
follow. The role of the federal government and, for that matter,
of the provincial governments is to provide those communities
with the tools they need to pursue their particular objectives
and ensure that they are sustainable into the future.
We are here tonight to talk about agriculture. In a larger
sense, we are here to talk about rural Canada, and in a larger
sense than that, we are here to talk about Canada. We are here
to talk about some very special values.
I have been very fortunate to have the opportunity to raise my
family in a rural part of Canada, in my hometown of Gravenhurst
in the riding of Parry Sound—Muskoka. It is a very special
place and the people who inhabit it are very special people. In
my community, we believe in the values of community and in the
values of family. I believe it is absolutely essential as we
have this debate in the House that we come together to find the
ways to sustain rural Canada, to find the ways to ensure that
this special way of life we all cherish is able to continue, not
just for ourselves but for our children as well.
Mr. Gurmant Grewal: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. Since the minister is still in the House, before he
leaves the Chamber could I have unanimous consent of the House
for 10 minutes of questions and comments with the minister?
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): Is there unanimous
consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Stockwell Day (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I advise you that I will be splitting
my time with fellow opposition members.
I would like to take at face value the high sounding noises that
we heard from across the way from the Secretary of State for
Rural Development, but it is of grave concern to me that when we
have a member asking the minister if he can ask some questions
related to the dissertation which the minister just gave on
agriculture, the minister says no. We cannot even ask some basic
questions related to the crisis our farmers are facing.
I would have been more assured about the sincerity of the
government if at some time between now and going back to last
November or October we had heard some kind of assurance from the
Prime Minister, from the secretary of state or from the minister
of agriculture that their Liberal candidate in Regina was
misspeaking when that candidate informed farmers who were waiting
in Regina for the Prime Minister—and who would not meet with
them—that because they would not vote properly they might not
get the help they needed. We have never heard a denunciation of
that particular comment.
I am trying to accept at face value the sincerity, but I have
nothing to back it up. Questions will not be answered today and
horrendous statements are not refuted or not reprimanded.
The Secretary of State for Rural Development has also said that
the government is looking for strategies. I do appreciate his
honesty from that point of view. The suggestion is that the
government does not have the strategies but is looking for them.
I appreciate that openness.
It is important to note, as we look at the immediate crisis upon
us, that funding is needed. It is important to note that farmers
in Canada from coast to coast, our producers, are able to do
incredible things. They are able to feed the world.
They are not simply asking for subsidization. They are not
simply asking for more money.
1945
The strategies that have been formulated by the Canadian
Alliance have been based upon numerous meetings with producers
from coast to coast. There were some 76 meetings with thousands
of farmers, as compared to the government committee that trotted
around some time ago. I think it had nine meetings. We are
talking about 76 meetings with thousands of producers.
Those producers said some things in terms of direct strategies.
They asked that their input costs be lowered. We have offered a
number of ways to do that. There was a proposal in the House to
lower costs of fuel, including diesel fuel. Liberal federal MPs
voted against that. There was a strategy. We were offering some
hope.
We have talked about the ability to lower user fees. Our
estimations through Agriculture Canada are that user fees related
to fertilizer purchases alone hit the farm community at something
to the tune of $300 million. We have asked for a reduction of
that to help with their input costs. The answer is no.
We have talked about value added. If we increase the value
added areas of this part of our economy there will be more demand
for the product, whether we are talking about the ethanol
capabilities and possibilities that are there in Ontario or the
pasta producing plants throughout the west. We have suggested
that the government lower business taxes, lower costs of those
businesses and increase the incentive to invest. We have offered
that as very specific strategies. What do we get? No action.
I am having trouble with the sincerity in terms of wanting to
help our agricultural sector. We have said that we should look
aggressively at negotiating downward the horrendous subsidies
faced by our farmers. Members know quite well that European grain
farmers are subsidized to the tune of something like 56% of their
income; U.S. farmers, something like 36% to 38%; and Canadians
farmers, something like 8% to 9%. This is not a case of our
producers saying that they simply need huge amounts of increased
subsidies, but they do need some help now. We have offered some
very specific strategies and we do not seem to be getting any.
We have offered the very clear strategy of giving producers,
especially our grain producers, marketing choice related to the
wheat board. These are specific strategies. We are not saying
that we should crater the wheat board. There may be a place for
it for those who choose it. Again we get no response. We have
been asked for the strategies and we do not get them.
Our members have done significant detailed work in terms of
improvements to the grain handling and transportation system. We
have offered those as specific strategies. We are even willing
to say that if members opposite in the Liberal government pick up
those strategies we will applaud them. We will even give them
credit. This has now gone beyond partisan concern. We have
producers right now who are saying that they do not think they
can get into the ground this spring. Something needs to happen
now.
The AIDA program has been identified for two years. There is
something like $1.7 billion sitting there on the cabinet table
when it should be on the kitchen tables of our farmers. Almost
half of that has been refused for those who are applying. In
many cases it is on technicalities.
What is the problem with the federal Liberal government? We
have farmers and producers who are saying they need those dollars
now. They are sitting on the table. We approved those dollars
to move ahead, and still we see no action. There are farmers who
do not know if they can make it through this spring.
In terms of reducing downward these subsidies, there is great
capability on behalf of our government to do that if it had a
will to do it. It could marshal the power of other trading
nations and use that collective buying power in terms of being
significant on these reductions.
This is not simply a western problem or an Ontario problem. Let
us look at the situation with P.E.I. with the potato shipments
shut out at the border. We know through the people who had done
the research related to the potato wart that this was not a
problem. We understand the minister was globetrotting somewhere
when these issues should have been dealt with. We had P.E.I.
farmers either putting their product into the bins or ploughing
them into the ground.
We need to do something and we need to do something now. They
have asked for strategies and we have given those strategies.
My colleagues will go into these in even more detail.
1950
This is not a time for partisan positioning. It was only a few
weeks ago that I met a group of farmers. One farmer held his
hand out and as I shook his hand he held on to mine. He said
that he was holding on but that he did not know if he could hold
on through the spring. He said that they needed those dollars to
be released to them now, the dollars that were on the table.
Politics aside, we are talking about enabling and empowering our
agriculture community to do what it does best, which is to be the
most innovative in the world. Canadian producers and farmers
have proven that they can be the hardest working and most
constructive in the world. Our agriculture community has proven
that it can be number one in the world when it comes to
conservation policies. It is time they had the support of a
government that would clear the obstacles and allow them to be
that.
It is time we had a federal government that set and maintained a
vision for agriculture, a vision for our agriculture community to
literally be able to feed the world and, at the same time, feed
their own families while they are doing it. That is the position
of the Canadian Alliance, the official opposition. The
government has asked for strategies and we have given them
strategies.
We are asking the government to act on those strategies because
time is running out for too many farmers. It is time to move for
the family farm.
Mr. Howard Hilstrom (Selkirk—Interlake, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, tonight we are here, as was stated
earlier, to talk about an agricultural policy. Actually what we
are here talking about is the lack of any sensible agricultural
policy on the part of the Liberal government.
Is there a crisis in agriculture in Canada? When we talk about
the grains, oilseeds and corn producers and the Prince Edward
Island potato producers, there is a darned serious crisis, a
crisis that involves the very livelihood and social fabric of
many communities in western Canada, Ontario, Prince Edward Island
and in fact farmers in every province. Yes, this debate is
necessary but it is not about agricultural policy, it is about a
real crisis that is happening right now.
I would like to touch for a moment on the history of this crisis
because this did not come up just tonight or last week. This
came up five to ten years ago. The lack of policy from
governments over the past 30 years, no long term strategy for
agriculture and no willingness to change and evolve as
agriculture needed to evolve and change over time, is what is
missing and the reason we are in a crisis today.
In 1997 we had a bill called Bill C-4, the famous Canadian Wheat
Board amendments bill. The Canadian Wheat Board was never
changed to a voluntary wheat board the way it should have been so
that farmers could go ahead and market their own grain and
increase their incomes. Those who needed the services of the
wheat board could still have availed themselves of it via a
voluntary process. We would have had value added as the pasta
producers were trying to do. It would not be obstructing the
durum producers of southern Saskatchewan and Manitoba who want
to form a durum cartel with their North Dakota neighbours.
The failure of this government is very evident in the bills that
it has tried to put forward, which have continued the excessive
regulation of the agriculture industry and have not freed it up. I
will give a couple of examples in a few moments that will show
that.
The other bill that really hurt farmers was Bill C-34. What did
we get from that debacle and the two years of wasted time we
spent on the Estey-Kroeger report bringing up all the good
solutions on the rail transportation system and on how the
transportation of our grain to the ports had to be a commercial
contract based system? We got a whole bunch of regulations with
no solution, big debates and disputes between the various
entities on moving our grain to port.
We have tried over the course of the last two years to deal with
agricultural issues. We have had emergency debates on
agriculture income. We can look in Hansard. We have had
supply days on agriculture income.
We have had an emergency debate on the grain strike in Vancouver.
A grain strike could happen again. It happened in Montreal. It
hurts producers like the pulse producers who shift containers
over.
1955
The pulse industry is one of the bright spots on the prairies in
that they are actually making money growing pulse crops. It is
another example of what the government is not doing and certainly
could be doing. Western farmers and Ontario farmers are
producing pulse crops. The government is always talking about
research, but it does very little in the way of pulse crop
research. There is one researcher in Saskatoon who does a bit in
this regard, but there are three full time researchers working on
wheat.
The government is working with Monsanto to develop a GMO wheat
and will still have wheat at the same value it is today. Wheat
is sold right now for below the cost of production. Pulse
producers could make a profit on what they produce, but they
could use some federal government dollars to match up with their
producer dollars to do research. Where is the government on
that? It is not providing that matching dollar. It still wants
to do research on canola and wheat. Its priorities are all wrong
in that area.
I have just talked about the transportation issue briefly. They
cannot guarantee their customers overseas in India and other
places that they will have product delivered to them on time.
That is another suggestion the government could work on. Final
offer arbitration is good example that could be used to ensure
that the containers are loaded on to the ships and shipped to the
customers. The Estey-Kroeger report should have been implemented
and it was not. That also hampers our reliability in delivering
our products.
The government has let the crisis build and build. We have
talked about solutions, but the only solution is to go with what
farm groups are saying, that they need $1 billion over and above
existing safety net programs. There has to be an immediate cash
injection before spring seeding. That means right away. The
government has agreed to the emergency debate and it has no
choice but to implement an immediate cash injection.
The problem with the AIDA program and the new CFIP is that it
leaves out the farmers in crisis: the grains, oilseed, corn and,
as of late, soybean producers.
I know my colleagues in the farming business will certainly have
heard, but did anyone else hear what happened to commodity prices
yesterday? Did they go up or did they go down? We are talking
of grain, wheat, canola and the other crops in crisis. The
futures market is down on every blasted one of them. Very
clearly that is the problem today.
Farmers need to get their crops in the ground. They need to be
able to adjust to other crops. However, the problem is that when
the government cut out all the subsidies, including the Crow rate,
it never replaced them with a decent, predictable long term
program that helped all farmers as opposed to just a few. AIDA
seemed to help hog farmers, but it did not help farmers who were
suffering from the longer term problem of low income over many
years.
Let us talk about trade issues for a moment. The government
seems intent on irritating the Americans at every turn. Lately
North Dakota has seen fit to pass some legislation, or at least
present it in the house, partly because of the agreement our
government made with the United States two years ago when we were
having problems with R-Calf, the cattle business issue that went
back and forth in the west in particular. They had a 40 point
agreement where they would sit down before trade disputes arose.
Before a trade dispute arose, such as the Prince Edward Island
potato issue, the government would get together with United
States farmers and politicians and prevent trade action.
2000
Now we see trade action happening with Brazil. Is that not an
interesting little case? We have political debts being paid to
Bombardier and the province of Quebec. In order to get back at
Brazil in any sniping little way the governement could, the agriculture
minister had to be involved because it involved an importation of
beef from Brazil. That importation of beef was stopped because
of political interference. It was not stopped because of any
other issue. In the next couple of days we will see that ban
lifted.
When our NAFTA neighbours, the United States and Mexico, see
political interference on trade issues they will not be very
happy with the government. I do not have the inside track on
what they are telling the government, but I can say that the
United States secretary of agriculture is no doubt phoning Ottawa
to tell the Prime Minister to life the ban on beef because it is
hurting trade between the Americas.
If the intent of the government is to irritate our trade
partners, there is no hope for our farmers. It is too bad that
the government was not thrown out in the election of November 27
because it has ruined agriculture and I see no solutions coming
from over there.
[Translation]
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Neigette-et-la-Mitis, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for
Champlain.
This evening in the House we have an opportunity to discuss an
extremely urgent problem, basically the state of emergency in the
area of agriculture. This debate was requested by the member for
Brandon—Souris under Standing Order 52.
What is interesting about the Standing Order is that it provides
that, in determining whether a matter should have urgent
consideration, the Speaker shall have regard to the extent to
which the debate or study requested concerns the administrative
responsibilities of the government or could come within the scope
of ministerial action. The Speaker also shall have regard to the
probability of the matter being brought before the House within
reasonable time by other means.
I would like to begin by thanking the Speaker for having
recognized the urgent nature of the matter we are to debate this
evening and for having authorized us to proceed.
Turning now to the criteria he must consider, he clearly
identified this as an area concerning the administrative
responsibilities of the government, as we all know it does. His
other consideration was the probability of the matter being
brought before the House within reasonable time by other means.
When the Minister of Finance, for instance, tells us that he was
not thinking of bringing down a budget at this time of year but
was going to wait until the fall, we wonder how the government is
going to assume its responsibilities and find ways of dealing
with this emergency.
The crisis in agriculture has not sprung up overnight. Already
in December 1998, the Standing Committee on Agriculture and
Agri-Food set aside all its other concerns and turned its
attention to this issue.
2005
It sounded the alarm with its report titled “The Farm Income
Crisis in Canada”. Although the title might suggest that the
committee had grasped how urgent it was to act, the committee's
recommendations were described in the Bloc Quebecois dissenting
report as paying no attention to the urgency of the situation.
I must acknowledge, three years down the line, just how accurate
the Bloc Quebecois comments on the committee's recommendations
were. The Canadian agricultural sector is in a state of ongoing
major crisis.
In his letter to the Speaker of the House requesting the
emergency debate, our colleague from Brandon—Souris described
the crisis very well. He pointed out that agricultural
communities across Canada had attempted to remedy the deplorable
conditions that afflict them today.
Referring to a labour survey carried out by Statistics Canada,
he said that, in 1999 alone, the prairies had lost 22,100 farmers
as a result of the heavy psychological and financial pressures on
the agricultural industry, not to mention the natural disasters
and the unjustified subsidies in other countries which aggravate
the situation.
Everyone who has spoken, the leader of the Progressive
Conservative Party, the leader of the Canadian Alliance, all of
the members, have drawn attention to the same thing.
Unfortunately, we could expect nothing better from the government
than the reactions we have just heard from the minister and the
secretary of state.
No doubt some money is invested in agriculture, but not enough,
given the scope of the problems.
This government lacks vision, as our colleague from
Brandon—Souris pointed out. It is probably not the only one to
lack vision either, since agriculture is in fairly poor shape.
The people in the west have long, and perhaps too long, not been
allowed to diversify their crops enough.
Prince Edward Island produces potatoes. Naturally, when there
is a problem with potatoes, when the U.S. threatens to no longer
allow Prince Edward Island potatoes into the states and Mexico
wants to follow suit, clearly, if your province produces only one
crop, you have big problems and your problems will grow.
One of the things that helps Quebec farming in a way—I see
great financiers in this House and so I may use a financial
expression—is that Quebec has a diversified farming portfolio,
so that when glitches occur in one area, it is possible to fall
back on another crop and try to cut losses.
When our colleague from Brandon—Souris wrote the Speaker to
submit his request, he raised a very important point. He noted
that the subsidies the U.S. and the E.U. give their farm
producers cause ours, who have had a lot of their subsidies cut
enormously by the Canadian government, to have a hard time
competing in this area.
Let us make no mistake. The debate our colleague put on the
table this evening is really of national concern, and the
questions he raised directly affect all farming communities right
across Canada, as he himself mentioned in his February 12 letter.
We must discuss the problems facing the agricultural industry in
depth and we must try to find specific solutions to resolve these
problems in the short, medium and long terms.
2010
We have some catching up to do. I have been an MP since 1993
and I must unfortunately note that the Liberal government led by
the member for Saint-Maurice has really neglected the
agricultural sector.
We have become—to use an expression often used in my
culture—more Catholic than the Pope. Because the WTO said that
the agricultural industry should not be subsidized, the
government seized the opportunity to quickly cut as many
subsidies as possible, while the Americans hung on to theirs,
completely destabilizing agricultural production in Canada.
When we talk about the problems affecting western Canada,
Ontario and Prince Edward Island in particular, we must not kid
ourselves. While the situation may not be catastrophic for all
farmers in Canada, it is at least difficult. We will have a
better idea of the extent of the problems facing our producers
when we can examine the action plan soon to be submitted by
provincial ministers to the office of the federal Minister of
Agriculture and Agri-Food, as part of the consensus reached at
their meeting in Regina.
Then we will have an opportunity to gauge just how open-minded
the Liberal government is, depending on whether it takes this
consensus into account and looks for ways it can help farmers. In
the context of market globalization, it is up to us to take the
initiative to go global so that we not lose out because others
made the decision for us.
I think that it is also important that we find a way of being as
self-sufficient as possible in our agricultural production. There
are ways of comparing the extent to which each of the provinces
helps farmers. Quebec has, I think, been successful at pooling
its resources so that money is distributed to producers within
programs providing real assistance that reflects the needs and
difficulties of our farmers.
I hope with all my heart that the government is open to the idea
of negotiating assistance to farmers.
Mr. Marcel Gagnon (Champlain, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I may be a
total newcomer to this House but I have a feeling of déjà vu
about tonight's debate. I must explain that I have that feeling
because I am a farmer's son and very much involved in the
agricultural field at home in Quebec.
My hon. colleague said that perhaps Quebecers were lucky enough
to have a kind of safety net for agricultural producers. I know
what she was referring to, for I was in the grassroots of the UPA
during the 70s when we were working to get that safety net.
I have sympathy for the farmers expressing their concerns for a
crumbling industry, for I too have known the farmer's life. I
find it a pity that the government has not been able, as my
colleague has said, to foresee such situations.
Agriculture is the basis of our economy. Agriculture does not
exist just for the farmer.
2015
I listened to what the Secretary of State for Rural Development
has had to say. I found it rather depressing and it took me back
some 25 years to hear him talk about protecting the rural
lifestyle, the necessity of getting down to basics, that rural
Canada counts on its agriculture.
I must state that agriculture does not exist for the farmer, it
exists because of the consumer. Its purpose is not preservation
of a lifestyle. We are not talking folklore here. There is an
element of that, of course. I think most people like to go out
into the country to visit farmers. Their lifestyle appeals to
us.
However, agriculture exists first and foremost because consumers
need food safety, they need healthy food produced close to where
they live.
My colleague explained how agriculture was the cornerstone of
the economy. This is what we must understand. When a farmer is
forced to come to protest with a combine in front of parliament,
it means that he is in debt up to his eyeballs. It means that he
sees a new season ahead but he does not know if he will be able
to start it.
It means there was a lack of vision, not on his part, but on the
part of the government. When people come here en masse to protest
to get help, to ask all political parties to come to their help,
to ask the government to take action, there is a problem. They
are there. They are there and they need help. They need support
and we must be sensitive to their plight, before the problems
start to surface. They want some sympathy for the vulnerability
of their profession.
When a farmer gets up in the morning, he often wonders what will
happen next. A farmer is vulnerable to anything, including the
weather and the environment. He is vulnerable to market prices
because his government did not protect him adequately. He is
vulnerable because production was not properly planned. A farmer
is always the first one and the last one to pay.
I thank those who proposed this debate in the House. It reminds
me of a debate which, as I said earlier, took place in Quebec in
the seventies and eighties, and during which I personally worked
very hard to get the safety nets that we needed.
I imagine that a responsible government, which boasts that it has
the best and one of the richest countries in the world, will not
stand by while agriculture, a pillar of its economy, collapses.
Farmers need support and agricultural programs on a daily basis.
They need us to view their work as something other than a quaint
way of life that must be preserved. They need to feel that
consumers need their services. In order for them to be able to
deliver those services, they have to be able to make a living at
what they do. This means we must be able to anticipate the tough
times so that they are not left to face their problems alone the
way they are now.
Clearly I am calling on the government to come to the assistance
of farmers, particularly those in the west, who are now in a
difficult situation. We are not perhaps experiencing the same
problems in Quebec right now.
2020
However, agriculture in Quebec still requires assistance from the
federal government. In this area, as in others, the money in the
federal government's coffers represents our tax dollars. The
government has to stop thinking that when it helps us, it is
doing us a big favour. That is not the case. This money comes
from the taxes paid by Quebecers and Canadians. We will always
be here to ensure that Quebec gets its share of what it has to
spend on agriculture.
That is only fair: when one pays taxes, one should be able to
expect, particularly when things are not going well, that the
government will be forthcoming with our, not its money. It
should direct taxpayers' money where it is needed so that
consumers and producers feel more secure and producers are
less vulnerable when times are tough and a source of constant
worry.
[English]
Mr. Dick Proctor (Palliser, NDP): Mr. Speaker, it is an
honour for me to rise in the House on this particular emergency
topic of agriculture.
For a number of the participants who have spoken in this debate,
there is a degree of frustration being felt in the Chamber. Mine
is a frustration of a member who was here in the last parliament.
We thought we discharged our responsibilities, as members of
parliament from all parties, to raise the subject of this crisis
and to point out some solutions for the government. In short, we
discharged our responsibilities to the best of our abilities.
Our frustration probably pales in comparison to the frustration
that was felt by the farmers who came to Ottawa, who lobbied, who
buttonholed members of parliament, who called meetings in their
communities and who staged tractor demonstrations to draw
attention to the farm crisis.
It does not matter whether it is Saskatchewan or Manitoba, or
the corn and soybean producers in Ontario, or the problem that
has come to light recently in Prince Edward Island with potatoes.
I am sure my colleague from Nova Scotia will be addressing that
particular issue later in the debate.
The frustration is aggravated when we hear the Minister of
Agriculture and Agri-Food, whose remarks I listened to carefully
earlier this evening, acknowledging that there are particular
financial hurts out there. He specifically indicated the grain
and oilseed producers.
That in itself is not new either. Going back to 1997 and 1998
it was acknowledged even by the agriculture minister that the
major hurt was with the grain and oilseed producers. What came
out of that, with our lobbying and the lobbying of others, was
the agricultural income disaster assistance program, AIDA. Who
did it help the least? The grain and oilseed producers.
However, it helped other people. It was based on an Alberta
program that was really designed for the red meat sector. It was
not designed to help grain and oilseed producers. Why?
Essentially, if we plotted it on a graph, the changes are very
slight. They have been slight downward changes in grains and
oilseeds over the past number of years. If we are dealing with
livestock, we see sharp spikes. The up tilt is large for three or
four years then all of sudden there is an abrupt drop. That
triggers some assistance for those farmers.
It is frustration about that. It is frustration when we hear
the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food say he will do more.
The question that comes to mind is, when will he and the
government do more?
The minister responsible for rural development, or the
provincial secretary, says that agriculture is extremely
important to everybody here.
Please tell that to the Minister of Finance and the Prime
Minister. With due respect to the agriculture minister and the
secretary for rural development, they cannot do that on their
own. It has to be a collective effort. It has to be a team
effort that involves all of the cabinet, especially the
leadership of the cabinet.
2025
On that point, may I quote from an e-mail that most of us who
are participating in this debate probably received. It states:
Had the government implemented strategies three years ago to
reduce government imposed costs; to deal with growing farm debt;
to develop and implement safety net programs which are effective
for grains and oilseeds; and to provide targeted assistance where
it was needed; you would not likely have been called to
participate in an emergency debate tonight on agriculture.
I believe that to be absolutely correct.
I want to take a few minutes to outline where this crisis
originated. I believe that if we do not know where we came from
it will be much harder to plot any solutions. Essentially, I
believe what happened was that 1993 was a very significant year
in this entire debate. It was not only the election of the first
term of the government, but it was also the coming into effect of
the GATT Uruguay round, and it was the first time agriculture was
addressed at the GATT. There was an agreement of good faith.
All the signatories agreed to reduce their subsidies and domestic
supports by 20% over five years.
I believe the government, which had a mantra of eliminating the
deficit as quickly as possible, chose to hide behind the GATT
Uruguay round agreement and to slash, cut and hack subsidies.
They cut supports not by 20% or 30% or 40%, but by 60% over the
five year period to the point where our farmers were unable to
compete with their counterparts in Europe and the United States.
The classic example from western Canada is the elimination of
the Crow benefit in 1995 which costs Canadian farmers in western
Canada more than $600 million each and every year. In the
province of Saskatchewan alone it costs about $320 million.
Other speakers earlier in this debate have reported on the
disparity between supports. I need not do that. It is on the
record. I would just point out that it is because of those
supports that food freedom day is coming earlier and earlier in
the country. We are paying so little for food that is being
produced by our farm families.
In the last year, and people may dispute the numbers, the number
of farms reported by Statistics Canada that were no longer
operating was approximately 6,400 in the province of
Saskatchewan. People who know this far better than I will tell
us that in good years and bad years, since the 1930s in
Saskatchewan, there have always been 1,500 farms that go out of
business. There are fewer farms but the ones that remain are
getting larger. However, 6,400 is a sharp increase in the number
of farms that have gone out of business.
It was acknowledged as well that it was because of the devastating
cuts,
government officials conceded. Mike Gifford, who used to be the
trade commissioner for Canada and reported to the Standing
Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food, reported that we could
have $2 billion worth of inputs or support payments to Canadian
farmers immediately without risking any degree of retaliation.
We had AIDA which did not really work for the group that it was
intended to work for in Manitoba and Saskatchewan. They are
primarily corn and oilseed producers, but the program was based
on the Alberta livestock program. We follow that now with a
Canadian farm income program which we believe has less money in
it than the AIDA program. As well, we have all of the problems
around that with getting payments for farmers to assist with that
program.
2030
The Secretary of State for Rural Development said it was
important that this debate not be just a litany of the problems,
that there should be some solutions. He was encouraging members
to come forward with solutions. I submit to the hon. member that
there is no shortage of solutions, which have been proposed by
any number of farm organizations and political parties.
Agricore, for example, has a number of what I think are workable
short term solutions. Agricore is suggesting that AIDA and CFIP
will not address the long term price depressions which are now
hurting producers. It suggests that the government needs to work
with safety net committees to design and implement new ways to
support the farm economy, such as a payment through the net
income stabilization account directly to the producer, as well as
an increased contribution to the provinces for funding of
companion programs.
The provinces, under this proposal, would decide how the
programs would operate in their respective provinces. Companion
programs would work better than national programs because they
would recognize the differences that exist in each province and
accordingly would have different solutions. The requirement for
a provincial contribution would be waived. The Canadian
Federation of Agriculture is also proposing companion programs.
In the last election campaign, the New Democratic Party had a
whole farm safety net program which we thought required putting
in $1.4 billion per year for each of the next four years. That
would basically double the amount of money available under our
safety net programs and would at the same time provide $100
million for a program to help young farmers get established on
the land and a program for older farmers averaging 58 and 60
years of age which would ease them off the farm.
I referred to the Canadian Federation of Agriculture. The
federation suggests: adequately funded farm income programs;
companion programs that meet farmers' needs on a provincial
basis; and NISA rules that allow farmers to withdraw funds when
they need them.
If I may just pause there for a minute, Mr. Speaker, that last
point is extremely important. It seems to me that NISA is an
extremely paternalistic program. I have had farmers tell me that
they have taken money out of their NISA account and then decided
later on in that year that they would like to take out more
money. They had not taken out enough because their crop did not
come through to the extent that they thought it would. They were
rejected because they could only make one withdrawal in any 12
month period. That is not an adequate solution. These people
have to be given responsibility. They know far better than any
of us here what their specific problems are. If there is money
there and they cannot access it and withdraw it, that surely is
another great frustration and one that ought to be very simply
dealt with.
The CFA also suggests that we need a disaster program that is
structured to deliver funds quickly rather than delay relief for
farmers. That is a reference to the fact that only 51% of the
1999 AIDA claims have been paid out thus far.
The CFA goes on to suggest that we need $900 million per year
for the next three years to restore safety net programs.
We have numbers ranging from $900 million a year to $1.4 billion
to more than that. There are farmers who phone to talk to me. I
am thinking of Lloyd Pletz in Balcarres, Saskatchewan, or Murray
Downing in Manitoba. I am sure they phone other members of
parliament as well to talk about programs and the specific ideas
they have for costs of production. They feel that our farmers
are simply unable to compete against the high subsidies coming
from the United States and Europe.
There are long term solutions as well, not just solutions for
the short term. I agree with previous speakers who have
acknowledged that we do need a short term program to get farmers
out on the land in a month, six weeks or two months' time, but we
certainly do need a long term safety net program that is going to
work for all of our farms and all of our farm families.
2035
Some of those suggestions include: tax rebates on fuel; cost
recovery; and reconsideration of user fees, which shot up
dramatically as the government was consumed with eliminating the
deficit back in the mid-nineties. I know they have been capped
at this point, but I think the government needs to reduce and in
some cases eliminate them. In these times of crisis, total farm
debt in the last few years has increased by more than 44%, which
needs to be addressed as well.
The Ontario Federation of Agriculture was front and centre in
the demonstration yesterday in Cornwall, if I read the papers
correctly, Mr. Speaker, a demonstration you are acquainted with.
The OFA talks about the need for safety nets, freight subsidies
and other support programs and about restoring that support to
the 1993 levels that I talked about earlier in regard to the
costs of production, in order to subsidize the gap between
farmers' financial capabilities and the average crop production.
We know that the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food will be
meeting with his provincial counterparts in Quebec City early
next month. We would really like to see some announcements prior
to that so that farmers can prepare for their spring planting.
Let me refer to the agreement that was signed by provincial
ministers in Regina last week. This was a meeting they
requested, without the federal minister and officials being
present. In their communiqué at the end of that meeting they
said, and I quote:
It is now up to the federal government to fulfill its
responsibilities and immediately invest accordingly to address
this urgent situation. Provinces agreed to work with the federal
government to prepare a framework that is predictable in the long
term, effective and fair to all provinces. This framework will
take into account a number of factors including the specific
features and needs of each of the provinces and the relative
economic importance of their agricultural sector in Canada.
The ministers hold that integrated risk management in agriculture
will require a joint response. This means a substantial
contribution from Ottawa. While this urgent situation is
occurring in the provinces, the additional funds required are in
Ottawa.
Let me close by trying to encapsule some of the messages that
the government needs to heed very quickly. We have heard them
from different parts of the House during the debate this evening.
The first message is that over time the federal government has
gone from taking the major responsibility for safety nets and
disaster funding to a position of requiring provinces to pay 40%
of the cost. Even though agriculture has always been jointly
administered, it is only in the last number of years that the
provinces have been specifically instructed that if they are
going to have a safety net program they have to pony up 40% of
the money. We are in a situation in Manitoba and Saskatchewan
where we have a relatively small tax base and a lot of farmland,
which is making it extremely difficult for provincial governments
to come up with the 40% that is required to have an effective
safety net program and effective protection for farm families.
That is one thing that needs to be taken into account.
Second, over time, the federal government, going back 5 years
and probably 13 or 14 years prior to the arrival of this
government, took away major programs that helped farmers,
including the two price wheat system, which my colleague from
Regina—Qu'Appelle will tell you came off in 1988, and the Crow
rate in 1995.
Third, farmers have faced and continue to face a number of
challenges, such as international subsidies funded by the
national treasuries of the European Union and the United States.
The numbers have been talked about earlier in the debate in
regard to how low our subsidies are in comparison to those
trading partners.
Fourth, there are declining margins as input costs eat up more
of the revenue, and there are the continued production and price
risks associated with farming.
2040
In conclusion, what I am trying to say is that farmers in this
country simply need to know whether the federal government is
going to stand behind them or if they are going to have to
address all of the farm issues by themselves as they have
essentially had to do over the last number of years. That is the
important question that needs to be addressed tonight.
Mr. Bob Speller (Haldimand—Norfolk—Brant, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for
Malpeque.
I will take a few minutes to talk about an issue that I consider
to be one of critical importance to the food security of our
country. I believe that the future of our food industries and
Canada's ability to produce safe and cheap food is at risk in
this debate tonight.
I am not sure that Canadians are aware of this, but if we
compare a normal food basket one might buy in any Canadian city
to one in any other city or country around the world, we find
that Canadians are paying the cheapest prices for the food that
they buy. Unfortunately these prices are not getting down to the
producers who produce the food. That is the problem we are faced
with this evening. In fact, the amount going to the farmer, the
producer of that food, has declined dramatically over the last 20
or 30 years.
The problem is that farmers today, in many commodities, cannot
even get back the price of production. This means that in regard
to the price of their labour, their fuel costs and their
production costs, they cannot even get those costs back when they
sell their food.
There are a number of reasons for this. Input costs are up.
Input costs are the expenses incurred to operate a farm, such as
costs for fertilizer, seed, labour and fuel. In fact, the cost
of ammonia, which is used in making fertilizer, is up by 56%.
That raises the cost of fertilizer. We have seen the price
situation with fuel, not only across Canada but around the world.
Those fuel prices dramatically increase the costs of production
for a farmer because a farmer uses a lot of fuel when he produces
a product.
Commodity prices in certain agricultural products are extremely
low. For example, the grains and oilseeds prices have dropped
dramatically since 1995. The price of corn has dropped by some
46%, wheat by 34% and canola by the same amount. These are
figures put out by the Canadian Federation of Agriculture. I
believe that these prices are directly impacted by export
subsidies and by trade distorting domestic subsidies from a
number of countries around the world, particularly in this
situation with the United States and the European Union.
What are the solutions? I think a two-pronged solution is
needed here. We need to first deal with the short term problem,
which is the problem being faced by farmers today in that they
cannot get back their costs of production. We also need to deal
with some of the underlying problems of income. This should
involve a short term injection of cash, not only from the federal
government but also from the provincial governments. At the same
time, for the long term problem we need to continue to take an
aggressive role at the international negotiating table.
I was glad to see the Prime Minister stand in the House and then
take this issue to his meeting with George Bush last week. The
Prime Minister went there and said it was a key priority on his
part to talk to President Bush about the export subsidies and the
ways in which we can coalesce with other countries around the
world to bring these down.
2045
I was glad to hear from the Prime Minister that President Bush
was of the same opinion. The Minister for International Trade
and the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-food have also taken the
word of Canadian farmers to the international table. They did
that by working with farm groups, farm organizations and
provinces to come up with an international agreement they could
take to the negotiating table, an agreement that first and
foremost was credible.
It will take time. If we look at how these negotiations have
gone in the past, we realize that we are talking about a number
of years to get to a point where there may be agreement. What do
we do in the meantime? We need an short injection of cash. I
was glad to hear the minister of agriculture tonight make the
point that more needs to be done and indeed will be done.
The provinces also need to get involved. Let us look at the
expenditure figures from all the provinces. The federal
government spends about 2% of its expenditures on agriculture;
British Columbia, 0.4%; Alberta, 2.6%; Saskatchewan, 5.7%;
Manitoba, 2.5%; Ontario, the richest province, my province,
0.78%; Quebec, 1.6%; New Brunswick, 0.5%; Nova Scotia, 0.9%;
Prince Edward Island, 2.4%; and Newfoundland, 0.3%.
Grains and oilseeds in Saskatchewan is a particularly important
area. I believe there is room at the provincial level to move
forward on the issue.
The Canadian Federation of Agriculture says farmers need income
programs that are adequately funded, that are able to be
delivered quickly and efficiently, and that will be in place
until we can get international agreements to deal with them.
As we as a country moved over the last number of years to deal
with the deficit we said we needed to make certain commitments to
do so. I believe we as a country need to continue to move
forward in that area. This is not just a rural issue. I am not
sure if Canadians or people in Toronto, for instance, know that
one in six jobs in Toronto is in the food industry.
What is at risk is our national sovereignty, our food
sovereignty, a cheap and safe food policy. We need the
understanding of urban Canada because we are asking the
government for tax dollars. We are asking Canadians at all
levels for a commitment on the issue.
This is as serious an issue as Canada has faced for a number of
years. We need to look at it both federally and provincially so
that we as a government and as a country can move forward with
solutions. We need a royal commission or something at the level
where not only ministers of agriculture from across the country
but representatives of all government levels and departments come
together to solve the problem.
Farm families are looking to us tonight for solutions. I
believe we have some. The government is seriously looking at
them. I believe the Prime Minister is focused on it. I ask for
their patience. I ask that they come together with their friends
and neighbours in urban Canada to ask for their understanding as
we in the House are asking tonight.
2050
Mr. Wayne Easter (Malpeque, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is
with a great deal of sadness that I enter the debate tonight,
another emergency debate on the farm crisis. We have had all too
many of them in the House over the last seven years.
Is there a farm crisis today? Yes, there certainly is. Before I
deal more specifically with the farm crisis, I must state that
not all the industry is in trouble. Supply management
commodities are doing okay. In the late sixties farmers in the
country came together with the support of government to develop a
system in which to market their product and gain fair returns on
their labour investment.
Those marketing systems are still in place today because of the
hard work of government members. We were able to retain those
supply management systems at the GATT negotiations and the WTO
discussions. We need to continue to fight to retain them.
If it were left up to the opposition party those kinds of
systems would be destroyed. Consumers are doing well by supply
management systems. They have cheap, high quality food and
farmers get good returns for what they produce. There is
balance.
Yes, there is a farm crisis in Canada and, to a great extent,
globally. As mentioned previously, the CFA, the Canadian
Federation of Agriculture, on February 6 held a food freedom day
on which, by February 6, the average Canadian had earned enough
to buy a year's supply of groceries at the grocery store level.
What about farmers' raw material costs freedom day? That would
have been on about January 9 or 10. The rest of the time is
taken up with the profits of the chain stores.
The CFA also mentioned that in Canada the ratio of cost of food
to personal disposable income is only 9.8%. Food is actually too
cheap in this country.
I want to put the farm crisis into some perspective. I will
quote a statement made by the NFU, the National Farmers Union. It
states:
The market is failing farmers, it is failing all around the
world, and it has been since at least the late 1970s. The market
is failing to return a fair and adequate share of the consumer
dollar to farmers. And it is failing to allocate to farmers a
reasonable return on labour, management, and equity from our
agri-food system's huge revenue stream. Moreover, this market
failure is entirely predictable. It is a direct result of
dramatic market power imbalances between agri-food industry
multinational corporations and the family farms that must do
business with these firms.
When we look at a graph, it is interesting what the NFU is
really saying. It says that some people are doing okay at the
expense of the farm community. If we look at a graph of the
increasing farm sector trade, we find that exports from the farm
sector are going up about 60% but the net income for the farm
sector, having produced that economy for everyone else in the
system, is going down to somewhere around 6%. Some people are
gaining as a result of the farmers' productivity.
The second quote I want to turn to is by Elbert van Donkersgoed
of the Christian Farmers Federation. He stated that “the year
2001 looks like another year of running with the bulls”,
comparing it to Pamplona, Spain. He went on to state:
For farmers, running with the bulls has become a necessity.
Massive agribusiness conglomerates manage the food chain. There
are fewer and fewer buyers for farm products. The competitive
marketplace has become an endangered species. But farmers are an
accommodating lot. They go along to get along. They will find
the silver lining: economic doctrine says the giantification of
Tyson (Foods) should deliver the much-heralded efficiencies of
scale. Besides, quasi-independent farmers running as a pack in a
narrow market lane is thrilling; and the bulls can get around to
goring only a few.
2055
I would suggest that year after year there are less and less of
those farmers left.
He goes on to say:
Truckloads of grain will leave farms across Canada for yet
another year of meagre returns. Canadian governments have been
counting on the bulls of international trade, the United States
and the European Union, to modify their subsidizing ways.
I raise those points because many out there are suggesting the
serious problems in the marketplace are functioning in the
farmers' interests. However, those are just two points of view.
I listened to the opposition and to the mover of the motion.
The concern I have with tonight's debate is that, as usual,
rather than proposing solutions they are attacking the
government. I would love to get into a debate with opposition
members in terms of some of the points they raised. It is hard
to resist the urge to do that.
I feel very passionately about the supply management system,
which the Alliance would destroy. I feel very strongly about the
Canadian Wheat Board, which the Alliance attacks. The Canadian
Wheat Board in this difficult market has been able to maximize
returns, such as they are, to primary producers.
Mr. Howard Hilstrom: What is the price of wheat?
Mr. Wayne Easter: That is my point. If the member had
listened to what I said about the international marketplace, the
prices are down. Thank goodness we have the Canadian Wheat Board
because it maximizes what little return there is back to primary
producers.
My colleague, who spoke just previous to me, said that Canada
must support its farm community. I agree that it must. If the
Europeans and Americans continue to subsidize at the levels they
do then Canada has an obligation to support its producers at
similar levels.
Regardless of the different policy points of view, I believe we
have a deeper problem, an underlying problem. I know I am doing
the unthinkable, but I must say something about the managers of
the agriculture and agrifood policies at the Sir John Carling
building. I know one should not attack the bureaucracy because
the opposition and some of our own members will say the minister
is responsible, and that is true. However, I have spent 17 years
in the farm movement and eight years in the government. I know
how hard we try as backbenchers to put forward solutions, but I
have never done anything so frustrating as dealing with the
potato wart problem in Prince Edward Island.
Potato wart is not a problem. Finding a solution seems to be.
Our trade officials are too weak-kneed to challenge the Americans
on what they are doing. The department seems unable to come up
with a solution in terms of an assistance package. There are
always 16 reasons why the bureaucracy cannot do something and
never one why it can.
I am frustrated with the department and I am laying it on the
table. As members we can have our debates on politics and on
policy but we need the department to put them forward in a
positive way. I am laying it out here because I am frustrated
about it and I think it must be said.
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This country has to support the farm community to nearly
equivalent levels with the United States and with Europe.
Mr. Charlie Penson: Be a little more specific.
Mr. Wayne Easter: There are certainly no specifics coming
from that side. All they can do over there is attack the very
good policies that we have in place. They would undermine supply
management. They would destroy the Canadian Wheat Board.
We have policies in place. We have put a lot of money into the
farm sector. We know it is not enough and that we have to do
more but at least this government is willing to work with the
farm community to come forward with positive solutions.
Mr. Kevin Sorenson: It is just you with all the answers.
Mr. Wayne Easter: I admit that I do not have all the
answers. Mr. Speaker, I am being interrupted. Could you call
the House to order?
The Deputy Speaker: No doubt I could attempt to bring
more order, but short of unanimous consent the member is getting
very close to his limit on time.
Mr. Wayne Easter: Mr. Speaker, I have laid out what I
think is part of the problem, which is the upper establishment at
the Sir John Carling building itself. I think that has to be
said, and I hate to have to say it, but I believe it to be true.
Over the past five years the federal government has spent about
$13 million in support for the agrifood sector. We have strongly
supported its supply management. There are some industries that
are seeing success out there. We will see more aggressive action
on the part of the government to deal with the grains and
oilseeds and the potato situation in P.E.I.
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton—Melville, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, before I begin, I thank the Speaker
for allowing us to have this emergency debate tonight. It has
been a fairly rare occasion that we have been able to get these
kinds of things and I commend you and the Speaker.
I also compliment the member opposite who just gave his speech.
It is not too often that we compliment them, but some of the
remarks he made toward the end of his speech should be heeded and
listened to. He made remarks with which I agree. I think that
many times those who are administering the programs may not
understand the problems down on the farm. I appreciate the
comments that were made.
Most of my address will be to people who are not on the farm
today. Those who are listening by television in our cities may
not understand this problem, so I would, in essence, like to send
my address to them.
The issue is of tremendous importance to my riding. Anyone
listening to this debate has to realize how important it is to
them, and many Canadians do not. We had a rally last year in my
riding and one of the signs that was being held up by the farmers
just jumped out to me. The sign read, “If you eat food don't
just thank God, thank a farmer”. That sign really said a lot.
We take for granted so often the quality of food that farmers put
on our tables. If one eats, one should support agriculture.
Let me answer several questions in my speech tonight. First,
the question I would like to ask is, is the crisis real? We have
heard a lot of statistics and numbers here tonight to prove that,
but the presence of farmers from my province in Ottawa tonight
indicates that they are seeking assistance. They are here paying
their own way. They cannot afford to hire professional
lobbyists. They are trying their best to explain to whomever
will listen that they cannot survive.
I invite anyone who does not believe that there is a huge
problem in my riding or in rural Saskatchewan to join me in my
riding sometime. They should come and answer the phone in my
riding office or even at my home. The should come with me to the
store, the post office, the curling rink or the church. I cannot
go anywhere without hearing a description of how this is
impacting the people in my riding. It really tears my heart out
to listen to those wonderful people.
I even had a funeral director tell me about two very sad
funerals he had to do for farmers who saw no hope. The crisis is
devastating on the farm. Ninety-seven per cent of the farmers in
a survey done in my riding stated that the federal government was
not doing enough to help them through the crisis.
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Seventy per cent of farmers in this survey said they lost money
farming last year. People in the cities should realize that they
did not just get a small income; they lost money. Eighty-five per
cent said that their farming operation was worse off than it was
last year. Seventy-five per cent were seriously considering
whether or not to even continue farming.
Here are some of the comments that I got on this survey:
It is disturbing that the government boasts about the budget
surplus and yet they cannot come up with $1 billion for farmers
per year.
Farmers see a lot of money flowing to Ottawa in the form of tax.
Yet when they are in need it does not come back to them. They
would like tax reduction or they would like some assistance. It
is not coming. Here is another quotation:
My family has gone through separation. We did get back together
but with immense stress, emotional and financial. I farm eight
quarters (a fairly small farm), plus we have two full time jobs
to pay living expenses and help pay farm bills.
In other words farmers are working off farm to put food on their
own tables but yet they grow grain that feeds the world. Here is
another quotation:
This crisis is not just manifested in the economics of the
situation. There is a tremendous cost to our families and to our
whole rural way and quality of life.
There is another question I would like answered. Why should we
be concerned about the crisis? Why should someone in Toronto,
Vancouver, Winnipeg, Montreal or Halifax be concerned? So what if
we lose our farmers? Does it matter? Let me explain why this is
serious and why Canadians in our cities should be telling the
government to take action and put $1 billion more into farm
assistance immediately.
Here is what happening. As our family farms disappear,
corporations are buying up the land. If this trend continues
they will gain control of our food supply. When that happens,
they will no longer produce the quality of food that Canadians
have come to take for granted but they will gain a monopoly. When
that happens the people in our cities will no longer enjoy the
low cost food. Quality and price will change dramatically when
we lose our family farms and the large corporations take over.
Another point I would like to make is on an environmental issue.
Family farmers care about the land. They will pass it on. They
care about the different plants and animal species. The large
corporations will not be as concerned about the soil and
resources or about passing the land down to their children and
grandchildren.
This is also an environmental issue which could catch the
attention of our environmentalists. I wish they would pay
attention to it. Squeezing our farmers means that they are desperately
looking for more ways to make an extra buck. They may use more
chemicals and fertilizers to keep going one more year. Family
farmers are the best caretakers of the land because they want it
to be there for many generations.
Another question I would like to answer is: Have we not been
giving farmers lots of handouts already? It seems like they are
always getting money. The government has given the impression
that is the case but it is not. It announced $1.7 billion in
assistance, but it never gets into the pockets of farmers. It
ends up fuelling a bureaucracy. Only half of the money it
announced several years ago has been received by farmers in any
way. The programs are complex and they are structured so that
they do not get the money to those who need it.
The people of Canada need to know that other countries are
standing behind their farmers but our federal government does
not. Because the Europeans and Americans help their farmers stay
on the land and see the value of plenty of farmers providing
quality food, it has driven down the price of food in Canada.
What has happened here? Canadians in our cities have benefited
from this because they know they can take advantage of the
crisis. They get food produced at below the cost of production.
Our farmers deserve to get paid for the work they do.
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In conclusion, I would like to say on a very touchy subject that
this Friday in Yorkton a rally is being held to promote the idea
that Saskatchewan should separate, that Saskatchewan would be
better off economically. The feeling of alienation is a serious
problem. I do not think this is the way to go, but I remember a
huge rally in Montreal just before the last referendum on
separation in Quebec.
The theme of the rally was that we loved Quebec and wanted it to
stay. Maybe it is about time we showed farmers that we care for
them. They do not think the rest of the country feels their
pain. Hopefully the government does not reflect the feeling of
most Canadians.
A real antidote to the alienation in rural provinces is to
reform our Senate and make parliament effective. The House of
Commons needs to become more effective. We need to wrestle power
away from the Prime Minister who does not treat all Canadians
equally.
The farm crisis might not be as serious if we had democracy in
Canada. My appeal this evening to all who are listening has been
to those in the cities. We need their help on the farm. I ask
them to put pressure on their MPs and their government to do
something to help our farmers. We need that assistance right
now.
Mr. David Anderson (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, debate on farm income is near and
dear to my heart. I have farmed for 25 years and I have been in
situations where I thought we were doing pretty well. I have
also been in situations where I wondered if we would be able to
make it through.
My home area of Cypress Hills—Grasslands, and particularly
Frontier, was settled in the early 1900s by people who came
mainly from Scandinavia looking for new opportunities. From the
beginning some succeeded at farming and some did not.
Over the decades, particularly through the dirty thirties,
people left our area. Depopulation took place a long time
ago in southwestern Saskatchewan. We have already gone through
what many other areas are only beginning to go through. To farm
means that farmers will face obstacles.
Farmers have always faced and are willing to fight through
disasters. All of us who have farmed have fought drought,
floods, insects and heat. We were willing to do that, but this
problem is different. This is a problem that does not come from
the weather or from farmers themselves. Income crisis is not the
fault of farmers. It has come about by circumstances totally
outside our control.
Trade negotiations far away and unfair foreign subsidy programs
have reduced our incomes to disastrous levels. Our income once
again is dictated to us by the government.
The problems of the WTO talks and foreign subsidization programs
have several results. One of them is that income drops for
farmers. One of the newspapers in my constituency printed a
notice that kitty litter now costs seven times as much as wheat.
It is wrong when cat litter is worth more than our food.
On one side the income drops and on the other side the costs
increase. If inputs skyrocket and income dives, it cannot work.
A second result is that it is destroying people personally.
People's willingness to continue farming is being taken away from
them. Some of them are giving up. They cannot make it on their
own. They do not want to be dependent on the government. They
are proud people who want to be proud of what they do.
These people are self-employed. They are the ones who pay in
but do not receive a lot back. They do not have fancy health
plans, or in some cases even decent health care. They cannot
take sick leave. They do not have big pension plans, but they
are still the heart and the soul of our country.
We need a new framework. How could things be different? I
would like members to come to my area of Cypress Hill—Grasslands
and in particular to the Claydon, Frontier and Climax area with
me. It has been home for nearly 100 years now to people who
have been willing to take a chance. When people moved there it
was a new opportunity for them.
People have continued to look for opportunity there and they
have found it. Through the years they have established
businesses. In the early seventies our community had
agricultural implement manufacturers, primarily Friggstad.
In the 1990s we had Honey
Bee Manufacturing which makes swathing equipment and combining
equipment. We have had processors move in that began to process
our products and sell them themselves. We have diversified into
specialty crops. People are interested in retailing in fuel,
fertilizers and chemicals. Now people in our community are
looking to the future.
This is an area with only hundreds of people, not thousands of
them. How does success happen in an area like that? There are two
things that strike me about that area. First, the people desire
to be free from government. They do not want to be dependent on
government. They know that the government cannot sustain them
long term. Second, they have an attitude that they will survive.
They are going to survive and they will do what it takes to
survive. We are doing that.
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Does the government want some direction? Tonight we heard it
ask for solutions and have heard some suggested by different
people. I do not know if it wants specific solutions or not. It
never initiated this debate and agriculture has never seemed to
be a real priority for it.
I am going to make some suggestions anyway. As a producer, I
would like to suggest first that the government strengthen what
remains. I can think of two things, in particular the crop
insurance programs that are in place and the NISA plan. Why not
use NISA, tune it up, make it work and make it work better? As
well, I would suggest, as we have heard tonight from my party and
also from one of the parties on the opposition side, that we need
stronger tax cuts and a reduction of government fees.
One program that worked last summer was the Canada-Saskatchewan
adjustment program. Both Saskatchewan and Manitoba were
recipients of that. It was easily administered. The money was
out there very quickly. It got to where it was needed and it was
used to do what had to be done.
Second, we should eliminate the failures. I can think of two of
them. They are the AIDA and the CFIP. These have been poorly
administered and ineffective. They are dangerous because people
get their hopes built up on what they are going to get out of the
programs and then it is taken away from them.
We all know examples of where people have received money and
have had it clawed back from them. I have constituents who have
come to me and told me that they have been asked for the money
back before they had even received it.
The second thing that needs to be dealt with is our trade
positions, which must be a lot more aggressively pursued. The
trade positions we end up with leave agriculture in a very bad
situation.
The government needs also to give hope for tomorrow. We need to
get emergency aid out there right now. We have half, or $800
million, of the AIDA money left. We are calling on the
government to deliver another $1 billion before seeding time.
That has to get out if we want farming to work successfully in
the grain and oilseed sector.
The government needs to look to create incentives to change. One
of the problems with AIDA is that it has rewarded people for
staying the same. If I have grown a product and it has gone
downhill, there is no incentive for me to change it because I can
continue to try to collect from that program. We must look to
create incentives to change.
The pulse growers are a good example of people who have gone
into specialization diversification and have done a good job
without a lot of government help. We can look to them for an
example of people who are making agriculture work.
I would suggest we need to open access. We need to open it to
the railways so we can get access to move some of our own
products on
the railways. I would also suggest, as we have heard earlier
tonight, that we need to open access to marketing, particularly
for grain. We need to allow freedom and open it up so people
have choice in what they are marketing and can deal with their
own product. We can market other crops worldwide and we can
certainly do it with grain.
If the government will not address these solutions, I have
another suggestion. It had better come up with some quick and
effective transition programs for those who cannot continue to
farm. We heard earlier that 6,400 people moved off their farms
last year. That is going to accelerate very rapidly. These
people know how to work. They want to work on their farms.
However, if we are not prepared to help them, we had better be
prepared to help them go on to something else.
In conclusion, I want to ask the question: is agriculture a
necessary industry? If not, what is? If it is, the government
needs to move. For three years it has failed to effectively
address the situation in grains and oilseeds. It is time that it
starts to mind the company store by addressing this immediate
need.
Our ancestors came here for the opportunity. Let us try to make
sure that there is one for our children as well.
Mrs. Karen Kraft Sloan (York North, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
will be splitting my time with another member.
One snowy day in January I found the parking lot of my
constituency office dwarfed by giant combines and huge tractors.
Inside my office a delegation of local farmers waited for me. We
had a good discussion.
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As each man left we shook hands. One of the last men to leave
took my hand and said “Please make those people in Ottawa
understand what we are going through”. He had been quiet
throughout the meeting, saying nothing. The few words he left
with me touched me in a very profound way.
As parliamentarians, as members of the House, the primary reason
we are here is to make those people in Ottawa understand what our
constituents and collectively what Canadians are going through.
It is our duty to bring the stories, the concerns, the
challenges, the hopes and the dreams of Canadians to Ottawa. We
do this to ensure that decision making reflects the reality of
Canadians' lives and that as best as is possible what we do here
in this Chamber serves those who look to this place for
leadership, for answers and at times for help. If we neglect to
do this, the laws we make, the policies and programs we develop,
will never meet the needs of Canadians. We will never solve the
problems that our nation faces. We will never answer the
fundamental questions we are required to address as a nation.
I am honoured to represent the riding of York North, an
agriculture rich part of Ontario known for its dairy farms, its
grain and cattle and the wonderful vegetables grown on our marsh
farms. In fact, when I was a schoolgirl in Thunder Bay we
studied the famous Holland Marsh in market gardening.
Because of its proximity to Toronto, York North has the
distinction of being a bit of a hybrid riding, an agriculture
basin and an important industrial region as well. We are home to
many people who commute to work in Toronto, to those who live in
the numerous small towns and villages in the rural countryside
and to a great many who have farmed in this area for generations
and who continue to do so.
Over the years our proximity to Canada's largest city has meant
that York North has become increasingly urbanized. This can be
said for many ridings represented in the House. A good deal of
our farmland has disappeared. Despite this, the myth that the
greater Toronto area does not make an important contribution to
our agriculture sector can be quickly dispelled. A recent study
noted that there are approximately $585 million in farm receipts
in the York region alone.
Clearly, the agrifood sector remains vitally important to the
economic health of the GTA and the York region. These are
hardworking, resilient people who have farmed for generations.
They have seen good times and tough times and now many are going
through the toughest of times.
I am working closely with the agrifood producers in my riding.
One of them, Mr. Don Chapman, has said to me and to the
newspapers that “Farmers don't want subsidies. They don't want
tax rebates. They don't want to call in crop insurance. They
just want to be paid fairly for their products”. The government
must listen to their need for immediate assistance and long term
support. We produce some of the greatest agricultural products
in the world and yet our farmers are in a dire way.
The farmers in my riding tell me Ontario farmers need an
increase in the Canadian farm income program of $300 million.
This program is split 60:40 with the province, which means that
we need Ontario to step up to the plate to the tune of $120
million. Our agriculture sector is a shared responsibility.
The farmers in my riding also talk about longer term solutions
and actions. They talk of increased funding to agricultural
research and of the development of new markets. They talk of
strengthening environmental programs. More important, any income
assistance program should help ensure that they receive adequate
returns for their investment, their input costs and their labour.
We all know debates are easy but coming up with practical long
term solutions is not. Will we settle on some concrete
initiatives this evening? I think not. More time is needed in
the House on this matter. More time is needed to discuss the
many facets of this complicated and lingering problem.
A local vegetable growers' association wrote to me recently to
outline some of these facets. In addition to the serious weather
pressures faced recently, they wrote that growers must contend
with eroded markets due to the consolidation, increased domestic
supply, increased year round global supply and free trade
agreements that force growers to compete with the treasuries of
the United States and the European Union.
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The same vegetable growers noted that a pre-harvest survey of
growers conducted in July 2000 placed crop losses to the growers
of Bradford, Cookstown and East Gwillimbury at approximately
3,500 acres, or an estimated 40% of the total area grown. This
is alarming.
There are other aspects to the problem as well. We need to
discuss these important issues such as increasing our support for
local growers. As Wendell Berry, the noted farmer, essayist and
poet once wrote:
The orientation of agriculture to local needs, local
possibilities and local limits is indispensable to the health of
both land and people, and undoubtedly to the health of democratic
liberties as well.
Why do we reach for lettuce trucked here from California instead
of that grown perhaps only miles away? There is something so
fundamentally wrong about that. How many of us even consider
what such a simple choice does to our farmers?
That is why I urge the House and the government to initiate a
national debate on food. We as Canadians from urban and rural
communities need to understand how the producers of our
foodstuffs live. We need to understand why mean farm incomes
continue to go down and why input costs continue to rise. We
need to understand why the next generation of farmers is not
stepping up to take over our farms. In fact, according to some,
the next generation has already decided not to. It is the
generation after them that we need to woo back to the land.
The hon. member for Calgary Centre referred to this debate as
one about food security. I agree with him but I would go
further. I believe that this is a question of food sovereignty.
If we care about good quality food in the country, and if we care
that we as a nation have control over this very basic need, then
we must understand that, as Wendell Berry also says “Whatever
determines the fortune of the land determines also the fortune of
the people.”
A vibrant, sustainable, profitable agricultural sector is part
of who we are. If it is suffering, then we are suffering. More
important, we become vulnerable.
I call on all members of the House to support our family farms.
I call upon the government to do what is right.
Mr. Alex Shepherd (Durham, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, thank you
for giving the House the opportunity to debate this very
important issue.
Some people consider Durham to be part of the GTA so that therefore
we would not know about farming. In fact, my riding is proud
that its second largest industry is agriculture. Our first one
is General Motors. Agriculture is a big feature of the Durham
riding.
Just as a personal note, I spent about eight years of my life
farming on a part time basis. I can well remember the years when
I could not get my farm crop in because of weather conditions and
the elevators in the spring would not give me the proper pricing
for that. I had to dump the crop on my farm floor and feed it to
pigs. I can certainly understand the trials and tribulations
that have occurred in the agricultural industry. Some things are
predicated by weather conditions, others by market forces. The
decisions are made way beyond the farm gate.
Our farmers are having a crisis. Every member in the House has
agreed that we have a significant one.
I was just speaking to a number of farmers in my riding last
Friday. They belong to an organization called the Canadian Foodgrain
Bank. This is an organization that many people would not
understand. The farmers get together to volunteer their time and
labour to grow grain. They basically have a storage facility.
CIDA actually purchases that grain and ships it overseas. The
farm community, even in its time of need, has found ways to
reach out to those less fortunate in other countries.
It is only appropriate that farmers are looking to us in their time
of need. It is time for us to discuss their issue and to ensure
that they are properly taken care of.
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I do not have to tell hon. members that a couple of world wars
have taught a lot of nations that it is very dangerous to be
dependent on other countries for their food supply. Even though
some people will argue, improperly I think, that other
agricultural countries could possibly outproduce us, I do not
believe that is true. I think it is dangerous if it is true.
We must sustain our Canadian agricultural industry.
It seems to me the farm sector is broken down into a number of
areas. We have a very dangerous tendency in the House to talk
about agriculture as if it were some kind of holistic thing. In
fact it is many industries all at once.
We have the supply management industry. Some people have
suggested it is doing well. Others have suggested it is simply
on a life support system. It is actually crumbling under the
weight of international pricing and the move toward tariffication
as opposed to a quota system for some of our supply based
industries. It too is in jeopardy and needs to be protected. We
as legislators need to stand up for that industry.
However it is true that the supply management industry is not
under the strain of grain and oilseeds and the other sectors of
the agricultural industry that do not have a supply management
industry.
These industries are coming to the government and saying that it
is their supply manager. As a bunch of small producers they find
it very difficult to compete, not only internationally but
domestically. After all, there are only two or three major
buyers of livestock in Canada but there are many livestock
farmers. There is a great disproportionate disparity in the
marketplace. I believe another member talked about the failure
of the market to deal directly with farmers.
Many people talked about the crisis today and suggested that we
need money and cash injection. I agree with that. However I
would like to talk today about the whole concept of program
delivery.
Before I started to study this debate I sourced some interesting
statistics, Canadian revenue income statistics. These figures
are for people who reported their incomes in 1998 from farming.
They may be somewhat inaccurate because they come from people's
tax returns. This is on a personal income tax basis, so it does
not reflect people who carried on farming in a corporate entity.
They would not show up in these figures. However it gives us a
rough overview, a sort of barometer of what is actually going on
in the agricultural industry.
A total of 439,990 tax filers who claimed that their chief
source of income was from farming had a total income of about $2
billion. That works out to a median income for farmers of $4,552.
What is even more startling is the report of the National
Council of Welfare in 1998 which talked about a low income cutoff
for people determined as being on welfare. For a family of three
it indicated $20,000 as the low income cutoff level. That is
lower than for people who live in the city because it is believed
that their taxes and other expenses are possibly cheaper. They
were taken into consideration.
It is amazing to see, as people have losses from farming, up
through the income stream that we have 214,470 farmers with
$20,000 worth of income. Basically that indicates that 50% of the
people who filed their tax return in 1998 and declared their
chief source of income to be from farming are living in poverty.
That is a very sad testament for our country. Basically the
people living in urban areas are the net benefactors of that
policy.
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It is not so much government per se, but for whatever reason we
have been the beneficiary of a cheap food policy. Nine per cent
of our disposable income is spent on food. That is lower than
the United States which has a bigger per capita income than we
do. We have a cheap food policy in Canada but it has been driven
on the backs of our farm community.
We have heard the concerns of people regarding various
government programs. Historically what has happened is that
every time we have had a problem or a crisis in the farm sector a
plan has been developed to prevent it, to adjust it or deal with
it. As a consequence, we have created a band-aid solution to farm
income support systems.
We have talked about a safety net system. The intentions of
governments, no matter what stripe, have basically been good, but
they have not been able to take the time to sit down and look at
the long range aspect of farm income support systems. I suggest
that we look in another direction, which is to create a
negative income tax for farmers.
We have an AIDA system, a NISA system, a CPIF system, a market
revenue system and a crop insurance system. We have a
multiplicity of systems. We normally put $1.6 billion toward
agriculture support. We put another billion dollars per year up
to $2.5 billion. I just said that the total income of farmers
reported in 1998 was $2 billion. There is no question that we
could afford a negative income tax system to support our farm
community without making every farmer an accountant or a lawyer.
In my riding, half of the people who are entitled to these
programs are not getting money because they cannot fill out the
damn forms. The first category in this group lost $255 million.
These people cannot afford to pay $1,000 for an accountant or a
lawyer to fill out these forms, so they do not get the money.
The money is not getting to the people who need it.
Yes, we do have all these programs in place but the money is not
getting to the people who are entitled to it. We will have to do
things in a better way.
Mr. Charlie Penson (Peace River, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, this is another emergency debate that many of us have
taken part in several times before. I have been in the House
almost eight years and it really disturbs me that we continue to
go down the same road having to deal with these situations with
agriculture in a knee-jerk fashion.
I would like to try to take the politics out of this issue
because it has been a problem that has plagued us for a long
time.
It seems to me that Canadian people have to be asked and have to
answer a very basic question: Do we want agriculture in this
country or not? That is what it comes down to. When it comes
down to the oilseed and grain sector, that is the very stark
choice that is happening in the prairies and other parts of the
country these days because it simply will not be around unless
we take a different approach to how we handle agriculture.
I have seen the devastation and we have heard about it here
today. We have heard a lot of good comments summarizing the
seriousness of the situation. I agree 100% that we have a very
vital industry that is going down the tubes. People are losing
their farms. I see it every day in my riding.
I suggest that we will have do something in the short term with
emergency aid, but unless we have some kind of long term plan to
deal with this and unless we have some appreciation by the
Canadian people that it is in their interest that we have
agriculture in Canada, we will lose this war. One of the reasons
I say that is that we simply cannot compete with subsidies
against massively populated countries like the United States or the
European Union.
I should mention at this time that I will be splitting my time
with the member for Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke.
We simply cannot play that game. We will lose every time. We
have to do something today about the emergency crisis, but I make
the case very passionately that we simply cannot win that game in
the long term.
2140
What could be done? First, I think Canadians have to decide
whether they want this agricultural industry. We could import
food more cheaply from other countries, I would think right now, with
the subsidies out there. We could go that route and we would see
the devastation that would happen in our rural communities. I am
afraid it would not stop there.
I have one rural community that lost several farm dealerships
last year. The community is in decline. I had a public meeting
and there were grown people crying at that meeting. That is how
serious it is. They are losing their farms. It is not just the
farmers. The businessmen were losing their car dealerships. It
does not stop there. It goes to the cities, because in western
Canada in particular where I live, agriculture is a very big
part. For every job in agriculture there are seven spinoff
jobs. If we do not think this affects the entire country we are
not living in a real world.
What could be done? We know some of the things that could be
done. There is the short term aid I talked about. Others have
suggested tax relief on excise taxes on fuel. Those are things
we could do at home. We could have transportation reform to try
to get the cost of delivery down. We will have to do that. There
have been some good suggestions in that regard.
The real problem has to be addressed by the international
community. Canada has to play a lot stronger role in doing that.
After all, who else will do it if we do not do it? Canada has
long been a leader in trying to get some rules around doing
business and trade in the world. Right after the war we were one
of the main proponents calling for trade rules. Agriculture was
not included for a lot of different reasons, but we were there
and we continue to push for that.
I suggest we have to be a lot tougher in those negotiations. If
we want our agricultural industry to survive, we have to start
looking after our national interests much more than we are doing
today. When it comes to situations like NATO saying that Canada
is not playing its part and that we have to up the ante and put
more money into it, we should be saying to them that we are
prepared to do that. We are prepared to talk about that, but not
if countries that are part of that organization have policies
which are destroying a vital sector of our economy. We have to
look after the national interest first, and we are not doing
that.
It goes beyond that. Europe spent $150 billion on agriculture
subsidies last year. We know that it overproduces. It does not
only supply its own markets. That was its goal to begin with,
but it produces 10% or 15% overage from what they need. What
does it do with it? It dumps it on to the world market just to
get rid of it. Those depressed prices kill our agriculture
exports because they have to compete against that fire sale
price.
When Europe comes to us next time with a problem in its backyard
saying that Canada has great peacekeepers that are needed again
in Bosnia or some place, I would say we are prepared to do that
but not if it continues those kinds of policies that are killing
a vital sector of our economy and destroying a way of life in
Canada, destroying our rural communities.
It just seems to me that we have to get more hard-nosed. We
have to recognize that we have a vital industry that is important
to us. We could probably import our food cheaper than we could
produce it right now with the subsidies that are out there, but
what happens in 15 years if those subsidies are no longer there?
What happens if the currency changes and there is a terrific
devaluation? All of a sudden the price of our food becomes much
more expensive. What will happen? Canadians will wake up and
ask: what happened to our farmers; why were the policymakers not
more responsible; why did they not encourage our farmers; and why
did they not tell us about the vital need for agriculture and
food security? Those are the questions they will be asking once
the agricultural industry has gone.
I say we need some foresight. Collectively as a country we have
to be much more hard-nosed. That is the long term answer. People
say to me that long term is 10 years or 15 years and their eyes
glaze over. This problem existed when I came here in 1993, which
will soon be eight years ago, and we are still going along with a
knee-jerk reaction. The sooner we start to realize that our
national interests have to be protected, the sooner we can work
toward some kind of solution.
I encourage all members of the House to work together to that
end. I am sorry to say that the way we are going is not the
answer. We simply will not have a grain and oilseeds sector left
in the near future unless we do something very important like the
move I am suggesting.
2145
Ms. Cheryl Gallant (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I rise to add to the sense of urgency
that our party believes exists in regard to letting the
government know that there is a crisis for the Canadian family
farm.
In my home province of Ontario, the agricultural sector in rural
Ontario remains an important engine for economic growth.
Projected farm gate sales of $8.84 billion for 1999 tell us that
agriculture in Ontario continues to grow. Additionally, the
simultaneous increase in farm gate sales and the decline in farm
jobs tells us that farmers continue to become more productive
with a trend toward more capital intensive operations.
Agriculture is big business in my riding of
Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke. A recent study that also includes
our fellow Alliance members in the county of Lanark shows that
there are 7,021 jobs tied to the agricultural sector and over
$240 million per annum in sales from farms and businesses that
buy and sell to farms.
The study also states that for every on farm job in Renfrew and
Lanark counties, there are an additional 1.3 jobs off the farm in
the economy serving the needs of local farm operators. The sales
expenditure multiplier shows that for every dollar spent by a
farmer there is an additional $1.45 in sales by businesses that
deal with farmers.
During the past federal election, I was able to hear firsthand
the plight of our local farmers. There has been a loss of small
farms through consolidation. It is getting harder to find
processing plants and markets to take their produce. Government
services are actually being withdrawn from farmers and the gap is
not always filled by the private sector. There is a shortage of
skilled trades workers due to higher wages that are available
elsewhere. Our most tragic problem is the exodus of our youth
from the rural areas and the family farms because it is felt by
some producers that there is no future on the family farm.
Most significantly, many of the farmers I spoke to believe that
the problems facing farmers today are tied to one thing: low
commodity prices. Much of the frustration my constituents had
with the former member and the current government was that when
they tried to draw attention to the farm crisis they were pushed
off and told that the problem was the weather.
We in the Canadian Alliance know better. Farmers are being
driven off the land by a Liberal government that has had its head
in the sand when it comes to the practices of our trading
partners.
Farmers are not asking for special treatment but for a level
playing field when it comes to heavily subsidized foreign produce
being dumped into our markets. Even though U.S. farmers are paid
10 times the amount of government dollars that the Canadian
government pays to our farmers, Canadians enjoy some of the
lowest food prices in the developed world. Where European
consumers spend 30% of their incomes on food and Americans spend
11%, Canadians spend just 9.5% of their incomes on food.
Canadian farmers need a government that is on their side. It
saddened me to learn that in the last parliament, Liberal, PC and
NDP members on the Standing Committee for Agriculture and
Agri-Food voted twice against allowing the committee to travel in
Ontario to hear from farmers directly.
2150
As an Alliance member from Ontario I am not afraid to hear about
the plight of farmers in my home province, and they have my
commitment that they will have a voice through me in this
parliament, where they have not had one since at least 1993.
What farmers in Ontario and Renfrew county need is an immediate
cash injection to safeguard the spring crop. They need a cost of
production farm support program, one for all of Canada, and a
government that will protect the independent farmer and the
consumer from big business, which is buying up all the
competition.
Once big business has driven the independent producers out of
business, wait for prices to climb out of control. All we are
asking is that the government support the needs of Canadian
farmers so they can continue to put quality homegrown food on the
tables of consumers.
Mr. Jerry Pickard (Chatham—Kent Essex, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for
Haliburton—Victoria—Brock.
I am pleased to have the opportunity to take part in this debate
tonight. Member after member has stood in the House and pointed
out that there is a tragic crisis in the agricultural community,
and no one in the House, no one who has spent time with
agricultural people, will deny that. We certainly need to make
some changes. We need to move that agenda very rapidly and we
need short term and long term solutions for that crisis.
A safe and abundant food supply that is very cheap is clearly
one of the joys that we in Canada share. The agriculture and
agrifood industry plays an enormous role in the daily living of
every Canadian. The agriculture and agrifood industry is the
third largest employer in Canada, generating about $95 billion in
domestic, retail and food service sales each year and $22 billion
in exports.
Indeed, the agriculture and agrifood industry holds a
significant place in our country's economy. That is why the
current state of this industry—and its future—is an extremely
important issue for all people in Canada. Every Canadian must
pay careful attention to what is happening.
Canadian farmers boast an impressive record despite the
distressed economic situation they are facing. Farming has
always been a risky business, but never more so than today. Low
commodity prices, adverse weather, high input costs and
overproduction due to high subsidies in the United States and the
European Union are causing great hardship for our Canadian
farmers. This is particularly the case for our grains and
oilseeds producers, who have experienced significant income
declines due to circumstances far beyond their control.
Prices paid to Ontario and other Canadian farmers for sales of
most Ontario grains and oilseed crops have been near their lowest
historic levels in value. In real dollars, they are lower in the
last four years than in any historic past. This is a direct
result of government policies in western Europe and the United
States. We are told that a crop farmer in Ontario growing a
typical balance of corn, soybeans and wheat receives less than
half as much government support as he or she would receive from
growing identical crops just a few miles south of my riding, in
the United States. This is the reality my local farmers face.
Since December 20, the price of corn has dropped 10 cents to 13
cents a bushel. Soybeans are down 82 cents to 84 cents a bushel.
Fuel and fertilizer costs are up. Last summer ammonium nitrate
was $300 a metric tonne and now it is $345.
The price of urea has increased from $300 to $450. Local
property taxes are forecasted to increase. Farmers are having
difficulty obtaining bank loans and banks will start foreclosure.
In fact, news of foreclosures has already been splashed across
the media in my area.
2155
Farmers are wondering if they can even plant their crops this
year, and the level of frustration among farmers is reaching a
peak.
The approach the federal government has taken so far involves
short term and long term measures. To respond to the farmers'
immediate needs, emergency assistance has been put in place,
first in 1998 and again last July. We worked hard to implement a
three year $3.3 billion federal plan for agricultural incomes.
This approach includes an outgoing income disaster program, which
Canadian farmers called for. Annual funding for safety nets now
committed by the federal government is almost double what it was
before this agreement.
Over the past five years the federal government has spent
approximately $13 billion in support of the agrifood sector, but
immediate cash shortfalls and assistance programs are only part
of the solution. At present, they are not helping our farm
community as much as our farm community needs. Several members
of the House have made it very clear a cash injection at this
time is imperative. There is no question that we need to make
sure there is some stability in that agricultural sector here in
this country now. I think that is extremely important.
We also have to realize that we need to go onto the
international scene, as many members of the House have said and
certainly as the farm communities have said. We all want forms
of agricultural support subsidies eliminated. Support subsidies
in Europe, in the United States and in other countries that
compete with our farmers cripple our farmers if our farmers do
not get the same supports. If we try to raise our supports, we
will just have a spiralling roof which will make it impossible to
have reasonable prices for commodities.
Our farm communities have said very carefully that they do not
want subsidies, they want fairness. They want good prices for
their products. Cheap food is a reality in Canada, but we have
not supported our agricultural producers who are producing that
cheap food in the way we need to. The sooner the better, the
minister has said, let us get rid of these subsidies. Let us not
just go on a cheap food policy, but let us stop international
dumping at low costs. Everyone gets hurt when it is an
internationally subsidized crop. Clear rules are needed to
prevent the forms of export assistance from becoming subsidies
for export.
The same goes for domestic forms of assistance that can be as
trade distorting as export subsidies. If world prices that are
already too low are being driven down by these unfair practices,
if these practices are hurting our farmers and farmers in the
majority of other agriculture producing countries, these
practices should be curtailed and eliminated. Rules that apply
equally to all are an important part of a trade equation. Trade
rules that are open, secure and predictable, as well as fair and
level, are the key to ensuring that agricultural policies of this
country and all other countries are fair.
That is why I am pleased to hear the Prime Minister recently
state that we must address the subsidy problem, that our farmers
should be able to compete on a level playing field. The subsidy
wars are of no interest or help to Canadians. This is a battle
Canada must win. Positioning the Canadian agriculture and
agrifood sector strategically for the long term is an important
element in helping Canadian farmers achieve stability,
profitability and long term support.
That is why I was equally pleased to see that agriculture was
mentioned in the recent throne speech and that the government
will help Canada's agricultural sector move beyond crisis
management.
2200
I could not agree more. It is time the Government of Canada and
Canadian farmers moved beyond the crisis management mode and
worked together. I support the government's efforts to support
this vital industry. However, we must commit to doing even more
for our farmers at this time, especially those in the grain and
oilseed sectors.
We need to do everything possible to help farmers who put food
on our tables through this difficult period. We need to close
the gap and put farmers on a fair and equal footing. That is
what farmers want; that is what the government must do; and that
is what I have heard from every member of the House who stood
today.
We need to recognize very clearly the agricultural crisis. It
is important to thousands of families across the land who do not
farm. It is important to the sectors of society that sell goods
to farmers. It is important to the sectors of society that use
farm products. It is important to the sectors of society that
are helped by this thriving industry.
Let us not forget that this basic industry has been the
foundation for Canada's development in the past and in the
present. It will be the industry of the future that will ensure
the well-being of Canadians.
Mr. John O'Reilly (Haliburton—Victoria—Brock, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am using the last half of my friend's time. I wanted
to make sure that the debate included
Haliburton—Victoria—Brock. If I combine my riding with the
neighbouring riding of Hastings—Frontenac, they together
comprise a third of the land in southern Ontario.
My riding is a rural riding in Ontario, with 24 Santa Claus
parades, 18 cenotaph services and many other such things that
happen in rural ridings. When visiting its 44 municipalities I
realize that I am dealing with small groups of agriculture based
people.
It is the same in your riding, Mr. Speaker, which is a big farm
community. There was a rally in your riding the other day, and I
thank you for attending it. Some farmers from my riding were
there to make the point that there was a crisis in certain
sectors of agriculture today. More than one sector of
agriculture is affected because today's problems in one sector
are tomorrow's problems in another.
There are 27 commodity groups in Ontario. I have been trying to
encourage farm groups to get together as one voice and not as
segregated groups trying to accomplish things for their own
sectors.
I work with farm groups. I realize they are very proud people.
They are not looking for a handout. They are looking to work on
a level playing field, as the saying goes, and to be able to
compete globally.
Canada has some of the most efficient farmers in the world. My
riding has a lot of agricultural groups that work through the
supply management system. There are over 400 working dairy farms
in my riding. When I approach farmers with items of concern,
when I bring some of the chief negotiators into the riding to
work with them to find ways to be more productive, the meetings
tend to be very big.
Before this debate I attended a meeting with the Minister of
Finance. I wanted to make sure he knew exactly what the problems
were, what the numbers were and what we were asking for. I
wanted also to be assured he had those numbers when he went to
cabinet along with the minister of agriculture, so that they knew
exactly what it would take for the 60 days between now and
planting season. After planting season, farm people must look at
what they will get for their crops in the end.
2205
This is not a quick fix to get the seed in the ground. It is
required in order to get a good price for the product. That is
the systemic problem in Ontario and other provinces at this time.
This afternoon we met with the members for Malpeque, Essex,
Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, Leeds—Grenville,
Dufferin—Peel—Wellington—Grey, Elgin—Middlesex—London and
the member for Etobicoke North, who does not have any farms there. He is
parliamentary secretary and we thought we should have him.
As we dealt with it, talked about it and laid out the numbers, we
saw that it was a whole farm problem. It is not just one
commodity group, although at this time grains and oilseeds are
having problems and are at the forefront. Other sectors could be
affected because Canada's food production is under attack from
the world. If we allow ourselves to be taken over, if we allow
the marketplace to be the only force that decides, we will not
have family farms. We must deal with the issue.
I compliment some of the people in my riding: Ed Bragshaw, Bruce
Webster, Joe Hickson and Bill Holland. They have held rallies.
They have presented petitions. They have had phone campaigns.
They are addressing the problem in a way that is very important
to them and to me. They bring their voices forward to be heard.
I also compliment the member for Toronto—Danforth, who is a
leader in promotion and a tremendous thinker when it comes to
things like the farm aid show. There are no farms in his riding,
but he is looking at being the voice for bringing farmers
together. He is trying to make some type of promotional hook,
and he knows today's problem with grains and oilseeds is
tomorrow's problem for other sectors of agriculture.
A farm organization gets six cents worth of product in a box of
cereal while a dollar on that box goes to a hockey player. I
have nothing against hockey players. I know your son is in the
NHL, Mr. Speaker. I am glad he is getting a dollar from a box of
cereal. The point is that if a farmer gets six cents for the
cereal while a golfer gets a dollar for his picture on the box,
there is obviously something wrong with the way we do business in
agriculture.
Our parties here tonight are close to short term solutions but
the long term problems will still exist. An instant infusion of
cash does not help the systemic problems. Another compounding
issue is that on very successful farms the average age of a
farmer is 57 or 58 years old. The younger generation is being
discouraged from farming because of the problems in the
marketplace.
In the short term I compliment the agricultural community for
putting its voices together and bringing the problem to the
forefront. I thank you, Mr. Speaker, for allowing the debate to
continue. I compliment the member for Brandon—Souris for
bringing the problem to the House.
I ask the House to continue to debate our food system, not just
grains and oilseeds but the whole farm problem, the whole
food system, and the safety of our food which is uppermost in our
minds. I think this problem is the tip of the iceberg for what
is going on in agriculture today. We must address it very
aggressively.
The House has to take a proactive stand to make sure farmers are
protected and that they get a decent return for what they
produce. The input costs have to be taken into consideration for
the price of the end product.
I hope the House will continue to address the whole farm problem
and not just the one segment before us tonight.
2210
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I intend to share my time with my colleague from Nova
Scotia who has a brilliant dissertation to make about the
problems facing maritime agriculture, including the problems in
Prince Edward Island.
This is the worst crisis in prairie agriculture since the 1930s.
I am talking specifically about the grain and oilseed industry.
In the 1930s many people were forced off the land. Today the
same thing is happening and it is happening in spades.
From the fall of 1999 to the fall of 2000 some 22,000 prairie
farmers were forced off the land: 6,500 in my own province, about
4,000 or 5,000 in Manitoba, and more than 10,000 in Alberta. So
many farmers were forced off the land that statisticians at
Statistics Canada at first could not believe what their computers
told them. About 40,000 people in the farm industry were forced
off the land at the same time.
The crisis on the prairies is unlike anything we have seen since
the 1930s. All one has to do is drive around small towns in
Saskatchewan and Manitoba to see how real the crisis is. The
situation is the same in Alberta outside of Edmonton and Calgary.
Regina and Saskatoon are not doing badly, but the rest of
Saskatchewan is really suffering because of the farm crisis.
During the election campaign and last summer I went to every
small town and village in my riding. With the exception of one
or two, every town is suffering a loss of population. People are
moving out and businesses are closing because of the collapse of
the farm economy. The towns that are doing well, like my
hometown of Wynyard or the town of Fort Qu'Appelle, are doing
well because of other industries.
There is a chicken plant in Wynyard called Lillydale that
employs about 500 people. The employees are unionized and
receive decent wages and have decent working conditions. Despite
that, the town is only holding its own.
Fort Qu'Appelle is a tourist town with a big tourist industry,
particularly in the summertime. There too the people are only
holding their own. Most other towns are shrinking because of the
crisis in agriculture.
Two things have to happen and they have to happen soon. First,
we need an immediate injection of cash into the farm economy so
that farmers can seed their crops in the spring. If that does
not happen thousands more farmers will leave the land.
Second, we need a long term farm program that has some
relationship to the cost of production so that farmers have basic
some guarantees about the commodities they produce. We can do
that within the confines and context of the World Trade
Organization.
It strikes me as strange that farmers in Canada are not as
supported as farmers in the United States. Canada has a $100
billion surplus for the next five years. We can afford now to
help grain farmers. Washington helps American farmers in North
Dakota, Montana, Oklahoma and right across the midwest of the
United States. Brussels helps European farmers. What does our
federal government do? It does very little when it comes to
helping grain and oilseed farmers across Canada.
What we need is a long term farm program that is based on the
cost of production so that farmers have an idea in the spring
what they will receive in the fall. They need to know they will
get back at least the cost of producing a crop and a decent
living wage for their families. That is the kind of thing that
will have to happen.
We also have to realize that if the government does not take the
initiative to intervene in terms of long term programs to support
the family farm and its way of life, those farms will disappear
and corporate farms will take over. Small towns will be gone and
soon Cargill, Dow Chemical, Monsanto and big corporations will
run the entire western Canadian farm base. The only institution
large enough to turn the trend around is the Government of
Canada representing all the people of the country.
2215
What we should realize is that agriculture is the basic
foundation industry of this country and when the farmer is better
off then we are all better off in terms of our economy and the
creation of jobs in Canada. That is what a lot of people in the
government do not seem to realize or understand.
There are some sections of farming that are not doing badly.
The member for Malpeque said earlier that in the late 1960s
legislation was read in the House to bring in supply management
and marketing boards for four commodities. We have the Canadian
Dairy Commission, CEMA, the Canadian Egg Marketing Agency, the
Canadian Chicken Marketing Agency and the Canadian Turkey
Marketing Agency. These supply management boards guarantee to
the producers in those areas a cost of production and a standard
of living which is reasonable and decent for the products and
foods they produce. For the consumers, they produce a stable
price for people who buy milk, turkey, chickens and eggs.
Even those marketing boards are now under threat because of the
World Trade Organization and mainly because the Americans see
them as an inhibition to a so-called free market. For the
Americans, the free market definition is what is good for a huge
transnational corporation is good for the people of the United
States. I say that is wrong. We have to fight to maintain our
supply marketing boards. We have to fight to maintain the
strength of the Canadian Wheat Board. It is very important that
we have a single desk marketing agency which is the Canadian
Wheat Board.
I am surprised time and time again to see the Alliance Party get
up and talk about a dual marketing system which in effect would
destroy the Canadian Wheat Board.
Those are issues that are very important if we are to preserve
the farm in Canada. If we had a dual marketing system, the
Canadian Wheat Board would not survive because it would be in
competition with the huge transnational, multinational grain
companies in Canada.
These are some of the issues. We plead tonight with the
Minister of Finance to loosen the purse strings a bit and come up
with an immediate injection of cash so that grain farmers can
afford to put in a crop. We plead with him to come up with an
immediate injection of cash that would help the farmers. There
are stories after stories being told of their hardships and about
people being forced off the land.
More important, in addition to that number one priority, is to
make sure we have a long term program that is based on the cost
of production so that farmers, like grain farmers, dairy
producers, chicken producers and turkey producers will have some
kind of a guarantee for the price of their commodities when they
plant a crop in the spring. They should have some kind of a
guarantee of a decent price come the fall.
I do not know why this has not become a priority of the Liberal
government. We get up here day after day and say there is a
crisis. We have Liberals day after day saying there is a crisis.
My God, if there is a crisis, let us do something about it. Let
us restore some democracy to this institution. Let us separate
parliament from the executive. Let us have parliament say to the
executive, the Government of Canada and to the cabinet, that this
is a crisis, that as a crisis it is a priority and if it is a
priority then money should be spent in making sure we solve the
problems, not just for the farmers but for the people of Canada.
That is what has to be done.
Instead we have an institution that has become more of a
debating society where people get up and pontificate and make
speeches. Some of them are good, like the member for
Brandon—Souris who made an excellent speech. We come up and
make these speeches time and time again. No wonder people are
getting cynical of this institution. No wonder only 60% of the
people voted in the last election. In spite of all the good
words, the good intentions, all the speeches, the research and
the money spent to run this place, it is falling on deaf ears
when it comes to the Minister of Finance, the Prime Minister, the
mandarins in the Privy Council Office and in the Department of
Finance.
It is about time the House passed a motion insisting that the
will of parliament is to make sure we have an immediate short
term program for the farmers and a long term program based on the
cost of production to keep our farmers on the land.
My time has expired and there is going to be an absolutely
eloquent speech coming from my friend from Nova Scotia.
2220
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure and
sadness at the same time to rise in the House to speak on the
crisis in the country.
Coming from the east coast and going through the crisis in the
fishing industry, I say that the parallels are exactly the same. My
colleague from the Conservative Party from St. John's East, the
member for St. John's West and the five Liberals who come from
Newfoundland and Labrador can eloquently state that the exact
same thing that is happening to our farmers in 2001 happened to
our fishermen and their families in 1993. What did the
government learn from that? Absolutely nothing.
Two weeks ago a group of farmers and their children spoke to our
caucus about the crisis in the industry. I asked a young man who
was about 12 or 13 years old from Saskatchewan if he was going to
go into farming when he was old enough. The young man said no. I
asked if any kids in his school who were going to take up
agriculture as a way of life like his father, his grandfather and
his forefathers did. The answer was no. This young man came to
the House of Commons. He was very nervous. He spoke to us as
parliamentarians and told us very honestly that there was no
future for him or his classmates in agriculture.
I want to say this to anyone who is listening to the governing
party, the official opposition and other political parties. Just
who in hell will our farmers be in the future? Who is
going to feed us? Who is going to feed our children? Who is
going to look after us?
When we wake up and have breakfast in the morning, and when all
Canadians wake up and feeds their kids oatmeal and cereal, where
do they think that food comes from? It comes from the farmers.
We are losing our food sovereignty. The day we lose that is the
day that will live in infamy. It will be a very sad day when we
have to rely on other nations to feed our population.
Just recently an absolute shame happened on Prince Edward
Island. On a corporate farm, Cavendish Farms in P.E.I., a few
potatoes were found with a bit of a wart. They call it a potato
blight. Immediately it was sent to CFIA. Immediately the
Americans were told and on Hallowe'en they shut the market down
to P.E.I. potatoes, causing a huge crisis. About $30 million to
$50 million of agricultural funds are being lost by potato
producers on the island.
What did the Americans have the gall to tell our Canadian
representatives? They said that not only was P.E.I not allowed
to sell potatoes to the States because of the blight, it was not
even allowed to sell its potatoes to other parts of Canada
because of the so-called fear that the blight might spread to other
fields. Imagine that?
What did our minister say? He said they would talk about it
more and discuss it further. The minister showed absolutely no
backbone by not standing up and protecting the producers in
P.E.I., and by not telling the Americans once and for all to take
their agricultural concerns and shove them where the sun does not
shine. I say that with due all respect to my American cousins.
If Canada does not stand up for its producers, who will? Who
will stand up for the P.E.I. farmers? I give kudos to the member
for Malpeque. He is not only a personal friend, and I know he is
in the governing party, but he has done yeoman's work in his
years as a president of the National Farmers Union and as a
Liberal backbencher to pursue this issue within his own
government. He has told me many times how frustrated he is with
the department of agriculture and with the lack of attention it
pays to Canadian farmers and their families.
It is an absolute disgrace that I, as an immigrant, have to
stand in the House of Commons to try to defend the interests of
farmers along with the eloquent speakers from Regina—Qu'Appelle
and Palliser, and also my great colleague Mr. John Solomon of
Regina stood in the House time and time again to plead, to
bargain, to do anything to bring the attention of the House to
the farmers.
2225
What happened? We get the same old rhetoric. We do not know if
we can do anything. We are not sure. We are going to have to
pick up the phone and see what the Americans are going to do.
In the short amount of time that I have left, let me say that
Mr. John Solomon,
a former member of the House, was in Brussels once at a UN talk.
He met a French minister. They talked about the agricultural
subsidies and the battles which were going on. What was said to
Mr. Solomon was very clear about how the European Union looks
after its farmers. The French minister said to John that if he
thought for one second that the French were not going to look
after their farmers because of the States or Canada, then he was
out of his head. He also said that France would do everything in
its power to see that its farmers were taken care of. They
wanted French farmers to produce food to feed them.
That is almost a revelation. It is unbelievable that in France
ministers stand up for their farmers. However, what do we do in
Canada? We play the boy scout routine. We cut, slash,
absolutely annihilate the farmers and force them off the lands.
In Newfoundland many years ago there was a premier named Joey
Smallwood who brought in the resettlement program. At least he
had the intellectual honesty to tell the people he was going to
move them from the outports and industrialize them into the major
centres.
The government does not even have the courage to tell the
farmers that it is going to force them off the lands, which is
the exact same thing it did to the fishermen on the east coast.
The same crisis is happening to the fishermen on the west coast.
It is not a surprise. There is no secrecy in this issue. I
honestly believe that the government has an agenda in place to
get rid of the independent family farm and move it to major
transnational corporations and to big agri-farms. I think that
is the future that the government wants to pursue. That is
absolutely incredible.
On the east coast we lost the independent fishermen. We lost
our lighthouses. In central Canada they are losing their grain
elevators and their family farms. How can the government stand
up and call itself a national party that cares about all
citizens when it will not even look after the people who feed us
every single day?
I ask you, Mr. Speaker, in your role in this Chamber, and anyone
who is listening, when you have breakfast in the morning,
to say a little prayer for our farmers and for the women and the
children on those farms. They are the ones who feed us. They
are the ones who take care of us. If we cannot take care of them
and look after them, then we do not deserve to be in government.
We do not even deserve to be in the House of Commons.
In fact, I think it would be excellent for the House and the
Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food to get out of their ivory
towers. Everyone should get on a combine or put on a pair of jeans
and a sweatshirt and go out on the family farm. We should get up
at 4 o'clock in the morning to see what it is like to plant the
seeds in order to look after our farmers and our food. We must
see where it actually comes from.
We have been sanitized to think that we just get up in the
morning, we open up the fridge, the cupboard and, voila, there is
all this food. If we run out, we go to the local store. That
food comes directly from the farm from people who make a minimum
salary and from people who love what they are doing. They feel
absolutely out of touch with what is going on in the government.
The government is absolutely out of touch with them.
I ask all members of parliament, especially my colleagues
from the Liberal party for whom I have great respect, to please
do something to help the farmers now. Bring in the long term
plans for our farmers so that we can have farming in this country
for many years to come.
[Translation]
Mr. Jacques Saada (Brossard—La Prairie, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
believe that if you were to seek it you would find unanimous
consent for the following motion:
That until the end of the debate, no dilatory motion such as
quorum calls or motions to extend debate under Standing Order
26(1) shall be introduced.
2230
[English]
Mr. Bill Blaikie: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. Before we give consent to this particular request, I
would like to make it known that this request was sought not on
the floor of the House but in an earlier meeting and it was
denied. I hope that by agreeing to this now we would not be
setting any precedent or giving the government the impression
that this is something we want to do at an earlier point in an
emergency debate.
The members on the other side do not have to agree but I am
trying to make a point here.
When there is an emergency debate, presumably members of the
opposition or others who sought the emergency debate would want
to have an opportunity to convince the government members that
there is in fact an emergency. In order to do that, we need to
have government members on the other side to talk to, which is
one of the reasons we did not agree to the autopilot motion
earlier. Otherwise we would have been speaking to an empty House
all night.
Seeing as the debate is winding down, we agree but without
prejudice to agreeing to do this in other circumstances.
The Deputy Speaker: Let me take this in the usual two
steps. Does the hon. government deputy whip have consent to
present his motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Deputy Speaker: The House has heard the terms of the
motion. Does the House give its consent to the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Motion agreed to)
Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur (Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, while I am pleased to have this opportunity to include
my comments during this emergency debate, it is unfortunate that
this debate is even necessary.
We must change the mindset that exists in some quarters of
official Ottawa, which may see agriculture as some outdated
sector of our economy and may suggest that better management on
our farms might solve all today's problems. Trust me: management
of our farms is not the problem.
We are asking our farmers to confront and challenge the highly
competitive export market while being tackled by subsidies in the
U.S. and the European Union. Farmers need a level playing field
to continue in the industry. For example, let me share with the
House this evening an income statement from a local farmer, as of
December 31, 2000. He owns and rents about 600 acres. His
nitrogen costs were about $250 per tonne, a 67% increase from
1999. As of January 31, 2001, the cost is $350 per tonne, a 40%
increase in one month. His diesel fuel increased 42% in one
year. His income was just under $186,000 and his expenses were
just slightly over $242,000. His net income is thus a negative
$55,300.
At this point I should mention that I will be sharing my time
with the hon. Minister of Natural Resources.
How long can we expect this farmer to continue? This financial
predicament has nothing to do with bad farming practices but
everything to do with matters outside his or her control, such as
high input costs and low commodity prices.
I hope that the decision makers are listening, because what is
happening on our farms is not due to bad management or outdated
ideas. We have survived thus far, due in large measure to good
management and meeting the challenges of ever changing times. As
a farmer in my life before politics I know well of the trials and
tribulations. We cannot control the weather any more than we
wish we could control the U.S. congress or France's financial
backing of its agriculture sector.
There are many issues, one being subsidies, that our government
is addressing on the global stage. Those matters are important
and vital to the long term survival of our highly diversified
farms.
I hear from farmers and their organizations every day. In rural
Canada we are independent and self-sufficient. Demonstrations,
blocking of traffic and rallies to highlight food freedom day are
not the first objectives of farmers, but the frustration has
grown rapidly.
Last summer several meetings were hosted by the Ontario
Federation of Agriculture for farmers to talk about their
circumstances to their provincial and federal elected members.
One of the largest meetings was held in my riding, which is home
to many farm leaders such as Ontario corn producers, soybean
growers, asparagus growers and Ontario wheat producers, and the
list goes on.
We know that the employment and sale expenditure multipliers
indicate that for every job in agriculture there are an
additional 1.28 jobs outside agriculture, and for each dollar in
sales in agriculture, there is $1.57 in sales in agriculture
related businesses.
2235
When farmers are in financial difficulty the ripple effect is
felt across all sectors of the economy, especially in our rural
communities. Agriculture is big business. It is an original
life science. This sector is continuously evolving and adapting
in order to achieve goals and meet new challenges identified by
science, trade and societal demands. Food production has become
more efficient. Farmers have increased crop diversification, and
agriculture's impact on the environment has gained much
significance, especially in recent years.
To maintain Canada's high standard of agricultural production,
the industry requires investment. Strengthening the agriculture
and agrifood industry will serve to benefit all Canadians by
providing safe and affordable food, greater employment, new uses
for non-food products and a greener environment. We must secure
conditions for success by improving farm income supports,
lessening the tax burden on our farmers, improving research and
development and investing in sustainable agriculture.
A vision for the future of agriculture has been laid out but the
path to get there is still uncertain. Some progress has been
made and too often that gets lost in the rush by others to
criticize and condemn. I congratulate our Minister of
Agriculture and Agri-Food for working with the provinces on the
new $5.5 billion three year national safety net agreement. It is
part of our 85% increase in farm support since 1995 while the
Ontario government, for example, continues to spend less.
The new safety net agreement followed many months of intense
discussion. It was not easy. The prairie provinces felt they
should be treated differently from Ontario, while the Ontario
government was pushing for its fair share of the nationally
allocated safety net dollars. Ontario received an additional $32
million per year as a result of those positive changes.
I believe we now have the appropriate programs in place, but we
must enhance that with additional funding. It is essential to
point out that the provinces do have a role to play here as well.
They are quick to denounce and, in Ontario's case, slow to
support.
The intent of safety nets is to set a solid foundation for a
complementary package of programs to address a variety of farm
income problems resulting from such factors as fluctuating
prices, poor weather and foreign subsidies, but we must now look
at doing more. Commodity prices are at historically low levels.
For some products, prices will stay low for both the short and
the long term. Foreign subsidies are not coming down. Farm
input costs, including fuel and fertilizer costs, are not going
down. Together they account for about $3.8 billion, or 13% of
total input expenses.
We have enhanced NISA by allowing participants easier access to
their accounts, and the federal government contributes at twice
the rate of the provincial governments. We have renewed crop
insurance. We have extended and enhanced the market revenue
insurance program, which is expected to pay out more than $200
million for 2000.
Farmers often need access to credit to help them get their crops
planted in the spring. That is why in April 2000 we launched the
spring credit advance program, worth $52 million to 3,000 Ontario
farmers.
We also know that farmers have bills to pay in the fall, often
before they want to market their crops, so we continue to provide
fall cash advance programs through the advanced payments program,
through which the federal government pays the interest on the
first $50,000 of an advance issued to a producer. About 4,000
Ontario farmers have been in the program over the past three
years, saving over $6 million in interest.
National and provincial farm groups are suggesting adding $300
million to farm safety nets to address the crisis in the grains
and oilseeds sector in particular, with 60% from the federal
government and 40% from the province. This would help level the
playing field.
We need to make certain that Canadian food continues to be
produced at a reasonable price and at a fair return to our
primary producers. Our nation is a success with a strong and
viable agriculture industry. Let us all work together to ensure
that agriculture remains a success within Canada. We can, and we
must, do more.
2240
Mr. John Maloney (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
am pleased to speak in the emergency debate on our agricultural
sector.
I will take this opportunity to talk about food safety, an issue
that is very important to the agricultural industry and to all
Canadians. Food safety has become an issue in the media recently
as a result of Canada's decision to suspend imports of food
products from Brazil.
I would like to remind the House that Canada has one of the
safest food supplies in the world, and during this debate I want
to explain to the House how the current issues involving
Brazilian food products have arisen as a result of our vigorous
measures to put the health and safety of Canadians first and
foremost.
We have a system of laws, regulations, inspections and product
approval procedures that protects the health and safety of our
food supply. The system is based on checks and balances to
ensure that all parties fulfil their responsibilities. Imported
products are subject to the same rigorous production and
inspection standards that we set for our own domestic food
products. Canadians expect no less.
Recently the food inspection systems in Canada and in other
countries have had to respond to a new and troubling development,
the growing threat of TSEs, transmissible spongiform
encephalopathies. TSEs are fatal diseases that affect the
central nervous system of animals or humans. They include
diseases such as scrapie in sheep. In elk and deer, they take
the form of chronic wasting disease.
In the past few years there has been a growing concern about the
form TSEs take in cattle, bovine spongiform encephalopathy or
BSE, also known as mad cow disease. Researchers speculate that
ingesting BSE infected beef may be related to Creutzfeldt-Jakob
disease, the form that TSE takes in humans.
Canada has taken several measures to prevent the introduction of
BSE or the spread of TSEs. So far these measures have proven to
be successful. We have no reason to believe that BSE exists in
Canada, but there is no such thing as zero risk and we cannot
guarantee that a case of BSE will never occur in Canada.
In today's debate on what is happening in agriculture, I wish to
reassure the House that the government has placed a very high
priority on keeping BSE out of Canada. As a front line of
defence, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency implements Health
Canada's policy of keeping animals diagnosed or suspected of
being infected with TSE out of the human or animal food chain.
Canadian veterinarians and livestock producers have been alerted
to the signs of BSE. They must report suspected cases to a
federal veterinarian. Adult cattle exhibiting symptoms
suggestive of BSE are destroyed and subjected to a laboratory
examination for BSE. Canada tests hundreds of cattle for BSE
every year and has tested over 4,800 cattle in total since its
BSE surveillance program was started. This level of testing
exceeds international recommendations.
However, I want to emphasize that Canadians have a right to
expect that the food that comes into this country meets the same
high standards we apply to domestic products, so we have a policy
of not importing ruminant meat and meat products from countries
that have BSE.
We also have additional import controls in place for other
animal products and byproducts from countries which have
confirmed BSE in native animals. In fact, since December 7 we
have suspended the importation of rendered material from all
species from any country that has BSE. These countries include:
the United Kingdom, Germany, France, Portugal, Denmark, Spain and
Italy.
However, there are troubling signs that BSE may have spread
beyond the countries where it first became a problem. For that
reason, Canada has implemented a fair and reasonable policy to
require our trading partners to provide us with information that
would permit us to assess BSE status. In May 1998 we sent our
trading partners notification of these policies. We provided a
questionnaire to be used in assessing BSE status in these
countries.
Our trading partners responded, except for one country, Brazil.
Argentina, Uruguay, Australia, New Zealand and the United States
all provided information that has allowed the Canadian Food
Inspection Agency to conduct a proper assessment. Brazil did
not. All these countries have been recognized as BSE free in
accordance with the established process. Brazil has not. In
addition, further information came to light that Brazil may have
imported cattle from European Union countries that are not free
of BSE.
In the interest of the health and safety of Canadians, we cannot
stand by and let food products come into the country that we
cannot demonstrate are BSE free. That is why earlier this month
Canada suspended current imports of canned corned beef and liquid
beef extract from Brazil. We proceeded with the removal of these
products from the marketplace.
Until Brazil can show that it meets the established process to
determine the safety of its beef products, we cannot let these
products into the country. This is a health issue. Those who
would confuse this issue with other disputes Canada has with
Brazil are, in effect, asking the government to take its eye off
the ball. The first and foremost priority is the health and
safety of all Canadians.
Canada is taking an extra step to help resolve this issue.
2245
Today the Canadian Food Inspection Agency announced that a team
of scientists would conduct an onsite visit in Brazil as part of
a continuing process to fully assess the Brazilian regulatory
system for the risk of BSE. The team will be joined by officials
from the United States and Mexico that are also working with
Canada to review the documentation provided by Brazil on its BSE
situation.
Together we are assessing three specific risk factors: Brazil's
feeding and rendering practices, its import practices, and its
surveillance and laboratory procedures. We need further
information on these factors before we can have confidence that
the Brazilian regulatory system is keeping BSE out of that
country. Once the information is complete it will be reviewed
and verified.
The Canadian Food Inspection Agency is doing everything possible
to expedite this process and complete the assessment as quickly
as it can. If Brazil meets Canada's requirement and is assessed
as free of BSE, the temporary suspension of imports will be
lifted.
Canadians can be proud of the high standards set by its food
health and safety system. We have one of the best systems in the
world, but that does not mean that we will allow ourselves to
become complacent.
We will continue to be vigilant, to learn, to reassess, and to
respond as science and experience evolve. We impose rigorous
standards on the food produced in this country. We impose the
same standards on the food that comes into this country. In
today's debate on the state of agriculture in Canada, the
strength of that food and safety system deserves the support of
the House.
In the very brief time remaining, allow me to address the
current crisis in our grains and oilseeds industries. A
combination of factors has challenged our agricultural producers.
Subsidies to our trade competitors, especially the U.S.; global
grain stocks surpluses; and financial and political instability
in Asia, Latin America and Eastern Europe have decreased demand
for our commodities and pushed prices to their lowest levels in
20 years.
Unpredictable weather last spring and summer plagued farmers in
my constituency of Erie—Lincoln. Many fields were too wet to
plant, notwithstanding all the spring soil preparation that had
been completed and the significant costs incurred. Indeed the
cost of diesel and nitrogen fertilizers increased over 20% during
the year 2000.
For those who got their seeds in the ground the situation only
deteriorated. When the cool damp weather persisted crop growth
was stunted or non-existent. At the end of June in place of
crops that should have been lush and green, there were vast
expanses of dried mud hard as concrete peaking above ponds of
water. The 2000 crop year in my area was quite literally a
washout with no yield or a pitifully poor yield.
As a result some farmers in my area are experiencing a
disastrous cash crisis. I recall one young farmer coming to the
microphone at an OFA meeting and advising that he had saved
$10,000 a year for the previous 10 years to accumulate enough
capital to buy a farm and embark upon a career he dearly loved.
In one growing season his equity was drowned out. It was enough
to make a grown man cry. In fact, that is exactly what he did
before all those assembled.
This evening we have heard the many forms of safety net policies
already in place. Last summer the federal and provincial
ministers of agriculture reached an agreement on a new three year
framework for safety nets. The Canadian farm income program will
provide up to $5.5 billion in support to farmers over the length
of the agreement, $3.3 billion from the federal government and
$2.2 billion from the provincial government.
Farm groups have long been calling for a disaster component as
part of the safety net programming. The Liberal government has
responded to this request with new funding of over $1.2 billion
for disaster relief over the life of the agreement.
For the first time producers have a safety net framework that
includes such programs as NISA, crop insurance and its companion
programs, as well as disaster relief programming.
The spring credit advance program also deserves mention. Under
the 2000 spring credit advance program, $356 million in advances
were issued to 31,000 producers. An evaluation of the 2000
spring credit advance program indicates that the program was well
received by producers as it provided low cost access to credit.
The spring credit advance program will be available for the 2001
crop year as well.
For the current year, advance payments program producer
organizations have given over $925 million in advances to
producers to provide cash flow until they sell their 2000 crops.
Producers may continue to apply for these advances until May 31
of this year.
We cannot allow our grain farmers to continue down a path to
extinction. The sovereignty of our food supply is too important.
Ms. Carol Skelton (Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, it is with tremendous pride that I
rise to speak to the emergency debate on agriculture. That pride
comes from being a farm partner. I was born and raised on a
farm. I have spent my 36 years of married life farming. I know
firsthand how farming has changed in the last 50 years and the
challenges today's agriculture community faces.
2250
I could stand here and talk for hours about agricultural
subsidies, the failure of the AIDA program, the transportation
costs and the Canadian Wheat Board's monopoly. I could talk
about the decimation of our rural communities, the loss of young
families to urban centres and the fact that our small town can
hardly keep its school open let alone field a minor hockey team,
but I felt this was an opportunity to let the farmers speak with
their own words.
Last year, prior to entering the political arena and during the
ongoing farm crisis, I took some personal action. I was very
discouraged with the words and actions of the agriculture
minister and the federal government toward struggling farm
families. I thought that if I put a face on the problem perhaps
the importance of the issue would be noticed.
I appealed through the media to farm women and children in
Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Alberta to write letters about the
circumstances that they were facing on the farm and to send them
to me. I vowed to somehow try to get the minister of
agriculture's attention with those letters.
Well the minister of agriculture is not here tonight but we
shall have it in Hansard. I am going to speak their words.
I received letters from farm women, farm men and children. They
are amazing letters with words that speak of hard work,
sacrifice, heartbreak and of feeling forgotten by the nation and
their government.
Some of the letters were agonizing to read but most of the
agonizing letters did not come from farm women and children, they
came from men.
This evening I want to read short excerpts from just a few of
the letters. I urge all members of the House to sit back in
their chairs, close their eyes and listen. I wish there were
more members here to hear them. I want members to really listen
to the words they are about to hear. These are not words of a
politician. These are the words of farmers, farm wives and the
children.
Letter No. 1 reads:
I am a farm wife raising four sons age 4 to 15. I work
full-time. Due to low grain prices and excessive moisture, my
husband was forced to work full-time in town. So that left our 4
sons on the farm for long hours. I did not realize how stressed
my eldest son was until he expressed concerns, weeping to me one
evening. He felt he had to (be the) head of the farm while his
dad was away. He's 15. He should be a kid while he can.
Letter No. 2 reads:
Everything that my mom and dad ever made went back into their
12-quarter farm. They never splurged on anything and definitely
don't have any luxuries. They never took my sister and I on a
holiday because they couldn't afford it. I always thought my
sister and I were deprived because we didn't have lots of clothes
and we didn't have our own brand new vehicles when we turned 16.
I have to sit back and watch everything that my dad achieved in
his 37 years of farming go down the drain. Their retirement is
going down the drain because everything always went back into the
farm so they could keep up and make the payments. Years of hard
work and tears are down the drain. Even if my mom and dad
survive another year on the farm, it won't be the same. The hurt
of knowing this cannot even be said. It won't be passed down to
any more family ever again. And that's not because I don't want
to continue in my father's footsteps, it's because we can't make
a living. The government is slapping farmers in the face. Could
I charge the government with abuse? They would slap me in the
face and laugh at how pitiful I am, and continue on with turning
Canada into their goal of becoming the next Third World country.
Letter No. 3 reads:
It is difficult to explain the toll and the effect that the farm
crisis has had on my husband, myself, and my family. Who would
have ever guessed that the year 1998 would be so disruptive for
our family. As usual, the crop was put in this spring, despite
the fact there was basically no moisture. My husband had to have
his gall bladder removed and so he had scheduled his surgery
sandwiched between seeding and springtime. My husband has never
been hospitalized before in his life. The stress mounted daily
as he awaited his surgery and as he awaited the growth of the
crop. Now, only a wife knows and understands the pride that men
have that does not allow them to speak of their innermost
concerns and fears. This is what the government does not see.
It does not see farmers losing their pride and self-respect. It
does not see the wives who try to improve their husband's frame
of mind only to have their husband turn against them. And the
government does not want to see the despair in the eyes of the
farmer.
The beginning of 1999 of course brought no relief—take
extensions on the loans, buy a little at a time, hope for AIDA.
I don't think so; hope is long-gone, not even a subject to be
brought up on the farm these days. This is the real farm
crisis—the loss of hope, continued discouragement and deep
depression and a disregard for government figures who are
clueless as to the plight of farmers.
2255
Letter No. 4 reads:
Our family is in a farm crisis. We are durum farmers in
southwest Saskatchewan who farm two sections of land. My husband
and I both were both raised on farms and we chose to raise our
family on the farm. We were not gifted with a family farm and
realize only too well the stress of trying to make a farm work
financially. We have applied for AIDA but we have heard nothing.
We cashed in on all the RRSPs that we had to make last year's
payments. What more are we expected to do? We do not want a
handout. We want a fair value for the product we grow. We need
the government to see our family as worthwhile contributors to
our Canadian society. I need the government to understand that I
am working as hard as I can to support my family in our chosen
lifestyle of farming. Times are very financially tough for us
right now. The big banks do not care about us but our government
should. We farmers are talking about survival; not acquiring the
newest truck; not travelling to Hawaii for the winter, not
building the biggest, newest home. Please listen to us. Please
understand our situation and help us through it.
Letter No. 5 reads:
Farming in Saskatchewan has never been a cakewalk. My
forefathers came to this country shortly after the turn of the
century with a sense of adventure, a need for opportunity, and a
keen desire to succeed. My ancestors no doubt endured hardships
that tested their endurance. Canadian prairie agriculture is
characterized by people determined to succeed. One thing that
has not changed is the farmers' sense of pride and many farmers
still prefer to put on a stiff upper lip regardless of how bad
things get. We still have our pride and fortunately the
facilitator of this letter campaign has pried a few stiff upper
lips into telling their story. The insolence and cold-hearted
responses of our nation's politicians show a pathetic lack of
appreciation for what farmers are sacrificing in terms of
economic stability, mental anguish and family discord.
I hope all members of every political stripe have truly heard
these words. I have one more letter. It reads:
To Someone Who Cares. It has been another one of those days.
Tears at breakfast and again at dinner and probably at supper
too. I have a constant pressure in my chest and nausea all the
time. I have never been so depressed. I have a million things
to do but what is the point? Why work so hard for literally
nothing? Production costs far outweigh what our crop is worth.
Bills are still outstanding.
I am sharing my time with the hon. member in front of me but I want to
state that the government must heed these words. It must
recognize how Canadian agriculture is struggling. It is time for
action from the federal government to support and stabilize an
industry that is so vital to our whole nation.
The words I have read are full of meaning and a heartfelt plea
for help. On behalf of these farm families I would like to table
these letters in the House today. I urge the Liberal government
to immediately and meaningfully address the agricultural crisis
in Canada.
Mr. Leon Benoit (Lakeland, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, it is with great difficulty that I rise in the House
again for another emergency debate on agriculture. This is the
sixth or seventh emergency debate that I have been involved in on
issues involving agriculture in the seven or eight years I have
been in the House.
For all of that, can we honestly say that things are any better?
The answer is no. In fact things are worse than they have ever
been in grain farming. Things have not improved.
Is the problem that members on this side of the House, on the
opposition side, just do not care? No, that is not the problem.
Is the problem that members on this side of the House in the
opposition parties do not work hard? No, that is not the
problem.
Is it that we on this side of the House do not try? No, it is
not.
We have just heard from my colleague who gave her presentation.
We can tell from what she said that she cares, that she is
working hard, and that she has tried.
Opposition members of parliament have done their job and they
will continue to do their job.
2300
Is the problem that members on the government side do not care?
No, I do not believe that for a minute. I do not believe there
is one member of parliament in the House who does not care about
the situation farmers are in right now.
Is the problem that members on the government side do not work
hard? No, that is not the problem. I know and appreciate that
members on the government side work very hard.
Is the problem that they do not try? No, it is not. Members
on the government side work hard and they do care and they do
try.
What is the problem? The problem is for all we care, for all we
work hard, for all we try, it does precious little good because
the fact is that the government is run by one man. It is run by
the Prime Minister. What the Prime Minister says goes. The
Prime Minister has not taken it to heart to do something about
agriculture.
I heard the member for Malpeque talk earlier about the problems
in the department and how public servants are not doing their
job. I have some information for him. It is the responsibility
of government to ensure that public servants in the departments
do their jobs. Public servants work for the government. The
problem is that the Prime Minister runs the show and he does not
understand what is going on in agriculture.
It is time for members on the government side to take a stand,
not just to try hard, not just to care, but to finally take a
stand. This is the issue they must take a stand on. We have
farmers, as other members have said, who will lose their farms
this year. We have thousands who have lost their farms over the
past few years.
I farmed for about 25 years. I still have my land. I rent it
out on a crop share. I still depend on grain sales to make my
payments on the mortgage on my land. I worked as a farm
economist with Alberta agriculture for years, along with farming,
to help support the farm and because I liked working with
farmers.
It was during that time in the late eighties that I sat at the
kitchen table with many farmers who were losing their farms. I
saw the farm wife and the children in tears because they knew
they were about to lose their farm. On many occasions I saw the
husband in those situations with a blank look in his eyes because
he knew he was about to lose the farm that had been in his family
for three or more generations. I lived through this and I hoped
and I prayed that I would never live to see it happen again.
I got into politics so I could try to change this situation and
do my part to ensure that it would never happen again. I have
offered suggestions to the government over and over again. These
suggestions have come from farmers across the country,
particularly my constituency in Alberta, and from my background
in farming and working as a farm economist. Those suggestions
have been ignored. My colleagues have done also brought forward
suggestions.
It is time for government MPs to take a stand on this issue.
This issue is important. The pain that farm families are living
through once again is something that should not be happening. We
cannot go back, but it is time that members on the government
side tell the Prime Minister and cabinet that they are not
putting up with it any more.
They should have a say in what the government does and their
first say will be on agriculture. It is time for that to happen.
I pray that members across the floor will finally take that
stand. That is my hope and that is my prayer. I offer that not
only from myself, my colleagues and members of the other
opposition parties, but from farmers in my constituency, from
farmers I have talked with from across Alberta, and from farmers
who have contacted me and to whom I have listened from across the
country.
2305
It is long enough. It has been eight years. It is long enough.
Many members of the governing party have been here eight years.
They have been involved in the six, seven or eight emergency
debates. They know in their hearts that things are not getting
better. I think they know in their hearts that government could
do many things that will help make things better. They know that
they could act on some of the recommendations that have been made
not only by opposition members but by their own members as well.
It is time. Eight years is enough. I encourage and I extend my
hand to members of the governing party to stand up on this issue,
not to let it just end with the emergency debate but to take the
issue to their caucus meeting tomorrow and to the Prime Minister
and to say that it is time. On behalf of the farmers who will
suffer more and who could be prevented from losing their farms,
on behalf of farmers who want to farm for years to come, I ask
that all members in the government party now take their stand.
I cannot do more. I have offered what I believe are
substantial, very useful solutions for eight years and years
before that when I was not here as a member of parliament. Those
solutions have not been acted on. All that is left is the
members of the governing party. That is all that is left here
now. They are the only people who could finally make the change
which will keep farmers on the farm. They should make it happen.
They are the only ones. I close by asking them to take that
stand.
The Deputy Speaker: Before I give the floor to the member
for South Shore, I want to offer my apologies to the House. It
would appear that I allowed the rotation to somehow get out of
sync a bit, so I will recognize the member for South Shore.
Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Mr. Speaker, it is a
pleasure to rise tonight to speak to agriculture. Like the
member for Peace River who rose earlier, it is also with some
regret that I rise to speak to agriculture.
This is the second emergency debate on agriculture I have
participated in. I would hope it would be the last, but there is
nothing coming from the government. Nothing has been promised.
It is almost at a point where the government looks at agriculture
as nothing ventured nothing gained; same old story; status quo is
good enough; it does not have to deal with it and can forget
about it.
That is simply not good enough. Hopefully, after this debate
tonight and after all members have a chance to participate in it,
we will be able to look back and review what has been discussed
this evening. Surely the minister and his department will take
another look at agriculture and be able to find a positive
solution to a continuing crisis in a resource sector that many of
us are from, many of us have participated in, and many of us hope
to participate in again.
I have been reminded by my colleague that I will be sharing my
time tonight. I know I only have 10 minutes to speak. I wonder
exactly where one starts with 10 minutes to talk about an issue
as vast and as wide ranging as the crisis in agriculture today.
For at least some of that time I would like to talk about some
of the things that have not been discussed tonight. Not only do
we have a crisis today on the farms, whether on the east coast,
the west coast or the prairies. We also have a crisis coming in
the future.
2310
I see the member for Malpeque listening to the debate, as he
should be, because we have a continuing crisis in plant inspection
and food inspection. We have a continuing crisis in our water
supply, not only for crops and livestock but for people.
There is a huge debate on food safety in the country that has
not begun to be approached by the government.
An hon. member: There is no long term plan.
Mr. Gerald Keddy: As the hon. member said, there is,
unfortunately, no long term plan and, more important, there is no
short term plan.
There is an issue at stake here. We could use a couple of
examples. It was mentioned earlier this evening that P.E.I.'s
potato production has been completely shut down. We have a
provincial program in P.E.I. to buy potatoes and compost them. We
do not have any kind of program from the federal government. We
have a promise but no cold hard cash is on the table. The only
things on the table on a farm in P.E.I., if they are lucky, are a
teapot and couple of elbows. They are sitting there
contemplating their future and wondering whether it will be in
the potato industry or in any other industry.
We have an ongoing issue. It is not complicated. We cannot
expect our farmers to produce against the rest of the farmers on
the planet, and specifically against farmers in the United States
and in the EU, if we do not subsidize our farmers to the same
degree that the Americans and the Europeans do, and we do not.
We are a buck and change behind the Americans, and we are two
dollars and change behind the Europeans.
This is not rocket science. We have to be on a level playing
field and maybe then we could convince the Americans and the
Europeans to drop their subsidies back. However we cannot do
that when we are behind them in the starting blocks. We can only
do it when we are at par. We do, without question, have a crisis
in agriculture.
I would like to point out some numbers. Numbers make our eyes
glaze over after a while and we start to say that maybe it is not
a number issue, but it is always a number issue and it is always
an issue of dollars before it is all done.
As we enter the 21st century and Canada faces new challenges and
trends, some of which I talked about earlier, such as
globalization and liberalization of trade forces, Canada will be
forced to become more and more competitive. Farm incomes are
already unstable. Infrastructure is crumbling. Access to
capital is restricted. Foreign governments continue to subsidize
their agriculture industries at high levels.
I used some rough figures a minute ago but I have an example
here of real numbers. In 1997, for every dollar Canadians spent
on farm support, the Americans spent $2.06, the European Union
spent $2.14 and Japan spent $3.47.
According to Brian Doidge of the Ridgetown College of
Agricultural Technology, Canada spends 78% of its GDP on
agriculture support, while the Americans spend 1.7% of its GDP.
The figures are based on the OECD aggregate measures of support.
The figures say very clearly that we are behind and we are not
doing anything to catch up.
From 1998 to September 2000, emergency income support program
payments directly to growers amounted to $48.2 billion in the
United States and $3.1 billion in Canada. The debate is over.
With that type of a ratio it is impossible to catch up unless the
government is determined to catch up and unless the government
says that it is going to reach parody and that when it reaches
parody it will talk about being equal and about everyone dropping
their subsidies back. In the meantime, if we do not do that we
will not have any farmers left.
The grains and oilseeds may be the hardest hit today, but that
will spread to the other commodity groups. It is only a matter
of time.
2315
A Statistics Canada report in August 2000 noted that a look at
the month by month statistics since January 1997 shows that total
employment in agriculture has plummeted from the fall of 1998.
Agriculture employment on the prairies used to hover around the
200,000 mark. An August survey puts that number at 160,000, that
is, 40,000 fewer people were working in agriculture on the
prairies. That computes, then, to 22,100 farmers.
I do not mind entering this debate, but I am beginning to
question why we are here, why we stand on our feet, why we
continue to ask the government to deal with a crisis situation,
to deal with a major problem in this country, while government
members continue to sit over there and do nothing and literally
sit on their hands.
We have a huge neighbour to the south that is a very powerful
trading partner. It has shown us at every turn of the wheel that
it will use a phytosanitary certificate for a non-tariff trade
barrier. It continues to do that. It has done it in the
Christmas tree industry, my background. It has done it with
P.E.I. potatoes time and again. It has done it in other
commodities. It has done it in lumber.
We, as the Parliament of Canada, have to better represent
Canadians. We can encourage the government but we cannot force
this majority to do something it does not want to do. I think
the member for Peace River said it best. The members over there
have to decide. The backbench members of the government have to
force and lobby their own government and their own Minister of
Agriculture and Agri-Food to respond to this crisis. If it is
not done, we will see a day in this country where not only will
we no longer have the family farm, we will be importing food.
That is not a day I look forward to.
Mr. Loyola Hearn (St. John's West, PC): Mr. Speaker,
perhaps people will wonder why somebody from Newfoundland, mainly
known as a fishing area, would want to enter into a debate on
agriculture.
There are two reasons. One is the similarity between what is
happening now in the agricultural industry and what happened in
Newfoundland a few years ago when we had a total collapse of the
fishery. Earlier tonight one of the members mentioned that
comparison. We once saw a resource where people made a
reasonable living, giving and taking over the years. Then,
perhaps because of mismanagement, perhaps because of overfishing,
perhaps because of climate conditions or migration patterns, or
perhaps more realistically because of a combination of all of
them, we had a total collapse of the ground fishery.
The government at the time, being a good Tory government,
stepped in immediately and helped out in that crisis. Now we see
a similar crisis in the west. In comparison, besides the crisis
and besides the need for help, there is the effect afterwards.
Once the present government moved in and realized the magnitude
of the problems, it seemed it was easier to turn control over to
the larger corporations, which is what we see happening now in
the fishery. The smaller, independent fisherperson is being
frozen out of the industry. More and more control is being taken
by the bigger players.
What we fail to see sometimes when we look at rural Canada,
whether it be a farming area or a fishing area, is that it is the
work, the product and the income generated in the rural areas
that make our urban areas a success.
2320
Why have our major towns and cities grown so fast? Is it
because of the office work, because of the stores that are built
there? Yes, but these offices and stores only exist because they
serve the needs of many of the people in the rural areas who come
into the larger areas for all their needs and services.
Consequently, one is dependent on the other.
We also forget quite often to look at the spinoff from the
primary industries, from the fishery or the farming industry, not
realizing that when a farm goes out of business and the farm
family is affected and has to go into bankruptcy or move away, a
number of other people are also affected by that move.
Listening to the members on the government side speak tonight
reminds me of Nero, who fiddled as Rome burned. Each one stood
up, many with prepared texts, and talked about all the good
things government is doing to assist the agricultural industry.
Mr. Wayne Easter: You obviously weren't listening.
Mr. Loyola Hearn: I hear my friend from Prince Edward
Island say that I was not listening. I was listening very
carefully, and I know that the farmers in Prince Edward Island
are listening tonight too and still wondering when the federal
government will step in and help them, as their own provincial
government has done in the present crisis they are facing. They
are asking if their help will come before Easter or after Easter.
Hopefully it will come very soon. Whether it will be the Easter
bunny or not who delivers the help to them, I am sure they
certainly will need it.
The farmers in western Canada are listening tonight and
wondering where the solutions are. We hear the problems being
raised and enunciated on both sides, but we hear the excuses
being given about all the government is doing, which is a sign
that it intends to do very little to help them in their present
crisis.
There are two things we have to look at. One is a long term
plan for farming. In my own province of Newfoundland, the
farming industry is also basically neglected by governments, both
federal and provincial, yet dairy farming is an extremely
important, lucrative industry. We do have plenty of land for
vegetable farming. We do have people growing specialty crops and
doing very well, but very little attention is being paid to the
agricultural industry.
If somebody comes in and wants to create a few new jobs with a
call centre or some other weird and wonderful idea, governments
flock in with all kinds of handouts. The fly-by-nights come in,
grab the money, last a few months and then are gone. Yet our own
solid industries, our own solid working people who can create all
kinds of new jobs in industries like the agricultural industry,
get absolutely no encouragement and no help. These things have
to change. That is where the long term plan comes in.
However, the immediate plan that is needed right now is
immediate action to help farmers who need help today, not
tomorrow, not next month or not the month after. They are
preparing now for spring planting and if these farmers do not
receive help, if they do not receive a cash injection
immediately, this coming year is shot. If this year is shot for
them, the same thing will happen to farmers in Saskatchewan,
Alberta, Manitoba and Ontario that happened to fisherfolk in
rural Newfoundland. They will pack up and leave the rural areas
to find work somewhere else. The primary resource, the food
producing areas in the country, will die, and we know what
happens when food is not produced. More than the areas die.
People die also.
I will conclude with words from a song by a great Canadian
singer and songwriter, Murray McLauchlan. It is called The
Farmer's Song. He talks about “these days when everybody's
taking so much, somebody's putting back in”. The farmer is the
one putting back in and perhaps it is time we here in this great
establishment recognize that.
2325
Ms. Sarmite Bulte (Parkdale—High Park, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I appreciate having the opportunity this evening to
speak to the financial situation facing some of our agricultural
producers and our government's response to the hardship that
these growers are experiencing. I will be sharing my time with
the member of parliament for Essex.
Mr. Speaker, you may ask why a member from a very urban riding
in Toronto would want to stand up and speak on this issue this
evening. Perhaps even more you might ask what an urban member
could possibly know about the situation facing our farmers in
Canada.
I would say to the members opposite that in fact my colleagues
on the government side have done their job very well, but let me
start with the why. I can only use as an example for the why
something from a conversation that I had with the member of
parliament for Essex, who so eloquently said that when we speak
about the quality of life we are also speaking about the quality
of the food we eat. That is what is integral to the quality of
life. It begins with the food we eat. All of us need to realize
that it is not just a rural issue but a national issue, and today
I am proud to rise and say it is an issue that is important to
the constituents of Parkdale—High Park.
I sat through the debate in which my colleague from the riding
of Haldimand—Norfolk—Brant actually provided a very interesting
statistic. He said that one in six jobs in Toronto is in the
food industry. When I speak of the member for
Haldimand—Norfolk—Brant, let me tell the House that I had an
opportunity this summer to visit his riding and speak to his
constituents about their concerns. I would say to those people
if they are listening that they have a wonderful advocate for
farming issues, and these are not just farming issues but
national issues. He spoke to other colleagues who had come to
the riding and we met with these people, listened to them and
talked to them.
Let me use as another example my colleague who is the member for
Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford. Her riding is perhaps 80% urban and
20% rural, but again she has talked to us and stressed what has
happened to the farmers in her riding with the adverse weather
conditions that Ontario farmers have experienced.
When we talk about it and people say that it is just a rural
issue and the urban MPs do not care, that is not true. Actually
it was last spring that the member of parliament for
Toronto—Danforth organized a farm aid concert in downtown
Toronto to bring this issue to everyone's attention. He did it
to help the farmers and to help our urban colleagues understand
just what an important national issue this is.
One of the members opposite this evening also spoke about the
member of parliament for Malpeque and said that he hoped the
farmers from Prince Edward Island were listening. I hope so too,
because I would tell them that they have a passionate advocate
who understands their issues and brings them to caucus on a
regular basis. I also had an opportunity to meet with his
constituents this summer.
Even more so, when I was on the foreign affairs and
international trade committee and had the opportunity of chairing
the international trade committee in the last session, I
travelled with the committee across the country. We listened to
farmers. We listened to the Canadian Federation of Agriculture.
We listened to the National Farmers Union. It was at that time
that I learned that our member for Malpeque was once the
president of that National Farmers Union.
It is funny how a city girl can actually not only learn a lot
about what is going on with our farms and our farmers but also
realize, as the member for Essex said, that it is about the
quality of life that affects all of us.
What has been the approach of our government to help these
growers who are experiencing these financial difficulties? At
the beginning of the debate this evening, the Minister of
Agriculture and Agri-Food outlined the government's approach,
which has been to stabilize incomes while working on several
fronts to encourage long term growth in the industry.
First, we are investing in programs and services that are having
a direct impact on the sector's ability to adapt and diversify in
today's competitive global economy.
2330
We are investing in innovation, in protecting our environment
and in the safety of our food supply. We are investing in
promoting trade which is so vital to the agriculture and food
industry and to the Canadian economy in general.
I cannot stress enough how all parties across Canada should
listen to what farmers and the agricultural federation have to
say about what our position should be at the World Trade
Organization and also as we negotiate the free trade of the
Americas agreement.
From what I have learned over the last few years, I can only
conclude that Canadian agriculture is successful and that current
programs work well to stabilize farm income fluctuations for the
vast majority of commercial operations. At the same time we
recognize that some Canadian farmers are facing serious financial
constraints. Low commodity prices, international subsidies and
adverse weather have had serious impact upon some of our
producers, particularly those in the grains and oilseed sectors
who have experienced significant income decline.
We have all listened to the concerns of the farm community and
understand the difficulties that some producers are facing due to
circumstances well beyond their control. The government has
worked with farm organizations and other levels of government to
address the situation with financial programs designed to target
its assistance to those who need it the most.
As my hon. colleagues are aware, after many months of extensive
discussions with the provinces and territories, the Minister of
Agriculture and Agri-Food reached a national framework agreement
on safety nets for farmers. The agreement, signed by all
provincial and territorial ministers last July, provides for a
total investment by the federal and provincial governments of up
to $5.5 billion for farm income programs for the year 2000, 2001
and 2002.
The agreement was a significant step forward. For the first
time ever, all agriculture ministers across the country agreed on
a common integrated approach to our farming safety net programs.
One of the most important aspects of the agreement is that it
includes an ongoing income disaster program, a feature which the
producers had actually called for.
Funding under the national agreement is based on the standard
60:40 federal-provincial cost sharing ratio. Over the three
years of the program, the federal government will provide up to
$3.3 billion to fund the most comprehensive safety net packages
to date.
I should point out to my hon. colleagues that annual funding for
safety nets now committed by the federal government is almost
double what it was before the agreement was reached. The
commitment of funds allows us to help farmers manage the risk
they face from natural events and market fluctuations.
Specifically the government contributes a major portion of the
funding for crop insurance and for the net income stabilization
account which is a program designed to provide income
stabilization to individual producers for long term. Farmers
have the opportunity to deposit money each year into their net
income stabilization accounts and receive matching government
contributions. Farmers can then withdraw money when needed in
lower income years.
The Government of Canada has also put in place the spring credit
advance program that provides interest free loans for producers
to help with the cost of spring planting. The program has been
very well received by the farm community. An amount of $356
million in interest free money was delivered in the first year of
the program.
There is also the advance payments program. Under the program
producers can obtain loans of up to $250,000 for the storage of
eligible commodities, with the federal government paying the
interest on the first $50,000. This allows producers to market
their crops when prices may be more favourable while still
meeting their short term financial obligations.
As I mentioned, the three year framework agreement with the
provinces includes disaster assistance that is targeted to those
who need it most. Under the Canadian farm income program, $2.2
billion in federal-provincial money has been allocated for
disaster programming for the 2000, 2001 and 2002 fiscal years.
Applications for the 2000 tax year will be available very soon.
We are continuously improving our existing programs and looking
at ways to help farmers manage risk. For example, changes were
made to the NISA program last year to increase producers' access
to their NISA funds. For 1999, thousands of those participants
have made withdrawals of more than $400 million dollars.
This program is doing what it was designed to do; stabilizing
producers incomes when needed.
2335
In conclusion, I believe that we are going in the right
direction. The government with the help of all of my colleagues
will continue to work for farmers across Canada to ensure that
Canada's agricultural sector continues to be both competitive and
strong.
Ms. Susan Whelan (Essex, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like
to start tonight by reminding everyone about Canadian agriculture
and Canadian farmers, a bit of a history lesson perhaps.
First, our farmers farm in Canada under some of the most severe
geographic and weather conditions in the world. Over 55% of our
food production is produced farther north than any other country
in the northern hemisphere.
How did this come about in this land called Canada? I ask the
House to think back to the time when the king of France, occupied
by the European war, when asked about the settlers in New France
and what would happen to them, said “Who cares. Let them
survive the best way they know. Who wants that land of ice and
snow anyhow?”
They did survive and became the most productive part of our
society. If all other parts of our society were as productive as
our farmers we never would have known inflation as we did. There
was no other part of our society that became as productive per
person as those engaged in agriculture.
At one time in the early development of our country, Canada, one
farm family produced enough for itself and one other family. Now
today one farm family produces enough for itself and 160 other
families. How do they accomplish this great feat? From the very
beginning the governments of the day established display farms,
research stations and experimental farms to help the new settlers
from all over the world.
Through Agriculture Canada our scientists and our farmers worked
together. They developed new short season hardier crops, disease
resistant cereal grains, a new variety of soyabean, canola,
lentils and the very best genetic breeding programs in the world
for our livestock and poultry industries. They learned how to
produce fruit and vegetables in short seasons. They developed
the best storage systems in the world; controlled atmospheres for
apples, oranges, cabbage and carrots. You name it, Mr. Speaker,
we stored it.
We developed programs in Canada to help our farmers build this
kind of storage. For example, the government paid up to
one-third of the cost if three farmers joined together to build a
storage facility. British Columbia in time was able to ship the
highest quality of apples to over 30 countries in the Pacific Rim
area.
Canada took advantage of the international laws to create the
Canadian Wheat Board, the Canadian Dairy Commission, the Canadian
Egg Marketing Agency, the Canadian Chicken Marketing Agency, the
Canadian Turkey Marketing Agency, all of these fair marketing
agency systems that allowed good farmers a decent profit for what
they produced, as well as providing consumers with a very fair
priced product.
Would it not be just great if the energy producers of oil and
gas could offer the consumers of their products the same fair
priced products today?
When we make a comparison to other parts of the world we must
remember the differences. For example, in the United States of
America the constitution is different. The federal government
in the United States has total authority, 100%. It does not
have to deal with 51 ministers of agriculture. The states'
secretaries of agriculture are nothing more than agriculture extension
services. Imagine the United States of America's secretary of
agriculture having to do the same as the Canadian minister of
agriculture? Under our constitution it is a shared
responsibility, much different and more difficult to administer
among rich and poor sectors. For instance, Alberta is oil rich
and Manitoba and New Brunswick have very limited resources.
It is nearly impossible to run a fair national program with the
status quo. However, I must say that our farmers are victims of
their own success, doing what the economists told them to do:
“Produce, produce, produce. That's your answer to economic
prosperity”. For agriculture in an over produced global world
it can be economic death.
I would like to read from the Palm Beach Post from Sunday,
December 24, 2000.
It reads:
For somebody who works the hard northern land that was first cut
by homesteaders' plows less than a century ago, the big harvest
of government checks usually happens in the fall $40,000 for just
being a farmer, another $40,000 for emergencies like bad market
conditions, more than $100,000 for not making any money on what
is grown, and $50,000 for taking other land out of production.
Good crops or bad, high yields or low, it hardly matters, the
checks roll in from the federal government, the biggest payroll
in farm country. By the end of the year, some farmers can
receive up to $280,000 simply by having another miserable year of
failure.
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In eight states, including Montana, government assistance made
up 100% of all farm income. This is what is happening in the
United States today. This is what is causing the price of grains
and oilseed to be depressed so that Canadian farmers who are the
most productive, efficient farmers in the world cannot compete
fairly.
The government has put programs in place. However, the
government also needs to take a look at how we fix those programs
to address the grain and oilseed crisis. All the parties have
to come to the table, the federal, the provincial government and
all the farm commodity groups. We must find a way to help
Canadian producers compete. We do not want to be, as the article
goes on to say “a ward of the federal government, a slow fading
county, a society that is similar to welfare”. We do not want
our agriculture sector to resemble that. We have to work to
ensure that trade laws are changed so that rules are enforced so
we can play on a fair playing field.
In the meantime, we need to do something now for our Canadian
farmers. Our farmers and our rural communities that are at risk
in the grain and oilseed sector need immediate assistance. The
government is looking for a solution and working toward a
solution, but again we need all the parties to come to the table.
We need to find a way to help our Canadian producers compete.
They are part of our society and contribute greatly to our
quality of life. We cannot forget the history lesson of how
Canada was formed. We cannot forget what they mean to the fabric
of our society. We cannot forget how important it is to ensure
that Canadians have safe, efficient, good quality and low cost
food for all Canadians, whether rich or poor, so that we can
ensure that this country stays strong. We do not want to be at
the mercy of any other country for our food supply. We must
always remember the important history lesson of our Canadian
farmers. We must not forget, we shall not forget.
Mr. Kevin Sorenson (Crowfoot, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, it is indeed a privilege to be in the House tonight to
speak on behalf of farmers in the west and to speak on behalf a
sector that is hurting, a sector that is diminishing and
disappearing. We are here tonight because we believe that we can
make changes. We have not totally given up hope. We believe
that there is still a place for the family farm in western Canada
and throughout Canada.
I realize, Mr. Speaker, that you are a sporting enthusiast. We
may be all having a little difficulty this evening staying awake.
It is 12.45 p.m. here and 9.45 p.m. in Alberta.
As a new member of parliament, I have already given my response
to the throne speech. Tomorrow I will give a speech with regard
to the young offenders legislation. I was not aware that I was
going to give a speech on agriculture tonight, but I was told
that if I waited until midnight I might find a opening. I am
glad I did.
This little illustration I am about to tell the House is about a
football game in 1929. California was leading Georgia Tech by a
score of seven to two. The quarterback went up to the line and
shouted for the ball. When the centre passed the ball to the
quarterback he turned and handed the ball to a running back by
the name of Roy Regals. Roy Regals took the ball, ran into the
line and bumped up against his tackles and his guards and got
turned around. He started running one way. Then he started
running another way. Pretty soon he found himself running in the
wrong direction. As he ran the wrong way the crowd hollered
“no, no, no” but Roy thought they were hollering “go, go,
go”. He continued to run in the wrong direction.
California had a player by the name of Benny Lam. Benny Lam
took after the running back and he tried to run him down. He
caught him at the five yard line. He explained to his running
back that he was running in the wrong direction.
Georgia Tech tried to kick the ball from its end zone and get out
of trouble. When they kicked it, it was blocked. The opposing
team fell on it and won the football game.
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I believe we have a government very similar to the player who
was running in the wrong direction, putting out all the effort to
get a job done and working hard to see that agriculture and many
other sectors that are in dire straits get help. However the
government is running in the wrong direction.
We have stood for years and decades in the House to tell the
government that there were troubles coming in the agricultural
sector which needed to be addressed. They put it on hold.
Everything was continually put on hold.
This past fall we travelled throughout the constituency of
Crowfoot, a constituency that is dependent on agriculture and
whose lifeblood is agriculture. We saw communities that are
dependent on farming, grain and cattle. We were told that they
would not make it.
I have travelled through many small towns in this past election
campaign and found many more doors locked on main street than
opened. When we talk to businessmen, whether in Drumheller,
Stetler, Hannah, Camrose or Killum, they say that if we want to
help their businesses we should help the farmers. If we want to
keep the businesses alive, it will not come in any other way than by
helping the agricultural sector.
We have looked at ways of helping agriculture. Government
members looked at ways of helping agriculture. They were heading
in the wrong direction. They came up with the AIDA program. They
promised billions of dollars to farmers. They promised that
there would be money coming and then gave us a paperwork
nightmare. The other ones having nightmares are the accountants
because they are the only ones who can fill out the forms. More
farmers end up paying a higher accounting bill than they get in
return from the government. We need to change the direction in
which we are headed.
We have talked about the concerns of transportation. I am a
farmer. I have farmed for 25 years. Farming is the only
business which pays the end price for every purchase made.
Farmers pay a retail price on everything they buy. Everything
they sell is sold at a wholesale price. They also pay the
freight both ways when they sell it. Before they sell any grain
they pay for the freight when it leaves the farm gate. When they
buy sprays and cover their input costs, they pay the final cost,
which includes all those things.
We have talked about tax reform. Many of our members won the
election on our stand on tax reform. One of our directors, a
gentleman from Czar, Alberta, went to the United States and
toured a John Deere factory. He spoke one evening with the
president of John Deere. He told the president the problem with
a lot of the equipment and machinery manufacturers was that they
did not make equipment for the smaller farmer, the farmer who is
looking for a $40,000 tractor.
He was told that when the iron comes out of the smelter and
rolls out it is taxed. It goes to the next level and is taxed
again. If all levels of accumulative taxes were removed from a
$100,000 tractor, we would end up with a $40,000 tractor. The
level of taxation on all input costs is too high.
The family farm is disappearing. I want to mention a true story
about what happened during the election. I knocked on the door
of farmhouse, walked in and went to the kitchen table. The
farmer sat down with me and told me that he would not make it.
He was 72 years old and he had no hope. In past years he had a
glimmer of hope. He thought there would be hope, but he saw no
hope coming from the government or anyone.
2350
As he sat there he told me that he spent two hours on the Sunday
previous looking for a .22 shell. He said that there was no hope
for him. When I left that farmhouse, he was sitting, weeping at
the table.
The only time I have ever stolen anything in my life is when I
left the farmhouse that day. I went to his gun rack on the
porch, took the rifle and put it in my pickup. It is a true
story. It simply illustrates the degree of hopelessness people
are feeling out there.
I have received phone calls and letters from people in my
riding. I have had individuals sitting in my office, breaking
down and weeping. A 58 year old farmer from Edgerton told me
that on the night previous his 26 year old son who has one young
child had come in to his home and had told him “Dad, I am
leaving. Why would I stay?” This individual had most of his
land finally paid for. He was looking forward to his son taking
over the farm. We are losing a generation from the farm and they
will not come back.
What do we want farms to look like in 10 years? What do we want
western Canada to look like in 10 years? My communities are
dependent on the family farm. We are begging the government to
listen. The Prime Minister stood in the House the other day and
said that he would go to the United States and encourage
President Bush to drop the subsidy.
We need help and we need it now in the agricultural sector in
western Canada. We need help from a government that will say
that we will not simply ask Mr. Bush but will lobby governments
in Europe, in the United States and throughout the world, our
competitors. We want our farmers on a level playing field with
farmers around the world.
There are too many stories out there about people who have lost
hope. Twenty-two thousand farmers over the last year have packed
their bags and said that they were going somewhere to find a job.
They were going to learn about computers so that they could work
in the city somewhere, which our government is encouraging them
to do.
The family farm is disappearing. What will it look like in 10
years? I have no idea. I do realize that just as in the 1930s
in Alberta and throughout western Canada populist movements came
along and people found hope. People are looking to the
government today for hope. They are looking to each side for
hope. Let us hope and pray that we come up with some long term
solutions soon and a quick influx of cash before spring work.
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, I consider it a privilege to be able to end the
debate this evening. I thank you, Mr. Speaker, for entertaining
the application for the emergency debate. I think that we have
made points on all sides of the House tonight on why it is a very
important topic. I will reflect for a moment on the speech my
colleague from Crowfoot just gave. What he has done is he has
given us a human context for this issue.
We can come to this place and debate numbers, failed programs
and subsidies that are in place in certain jurisdictions and not
in others, and then leave at the end of the night. We will have
done our part somewhat in raising these issues, but the fact of
the matter is that when we leave this place tonight people across
the country will still be in dire straits because of the farm
income crisis my colleague and others have mentioned. We need to
do something immediately.
The government provided relief with the AIDA program, but we
know that has not completely solved the problem, partly because
of the administrative quagmire that has ensued where the money
has not gone to the people who have needed it. We have heard
from individuals, from our own members today who represent the
constituents across the country, that it needs to be fixed and
needs to be fixed now. We need to get those dollars to the
people who need them so that they can put their crops in this
year.
2355
My riding is one that is an urban-rural riding. I consider
myself a city boy. I spent most of my life in the city, but had
the opportunity to spend many of my summers as a young man on my
uncle's farm in Killarney, Manitoba, and to see firsthand what it
was like to live on a farm and what hard work went into the
production of foodstuffs in our country.
We have a network of people across this country that puts food
on the table for all Canadians. We need to keep that in mind, no
matter what region we may come from or what demographic we might
associate ourselves with. We need to put the help out there
right now.
I would like to correct a couple of comments that I heard from
my colleague across the way who has been here and listening to
the debate. The member for Malpeque mentioned that the Alliance
does not support supply management. Nothing could be further
from the truth.
I have many dairy farmers in my own riding, in Agassiz. We have
a research station in Agassiz that does good work and we have
producers who work very hard. This is an issue that touches us
from coast to coast.
We have heard passionate speeches tonight as to why the
government needs to move ahead in terms of foreign subsidies,
which other nations are providing to their farmers. Our
government seems to have moved in a unilateral disarmament way in
relation to subsidies. We need immediate action on that.
We have asked for implementation of measures that would help
with input costs, such as reducing fuel taxes and many other
measures. As my colleague for Crowfoot so eloquently explained,
our farmers are paying the retail price for production. They
are putting in the input costs themselves, such as the high cost of
transportation, and getting wholesale prices.
We know there are solutions out there. One of our colleagues
from the government side said that we need to find a way to help
our farmers compete. There are ideas. They are here before us.
They have been laid out in debate this evening. We are asking
that the government take the ideas that are there and put them in
place and do it now. It is only when we take the actions
necessary to back up our words that we show with our deeds we are
serious about what we say in the House.
Opposition members and government members, we need to move ahead
co-operatively. This is not a partisan issue, as we are all
aware. We perhaps have different ideas about how to get to the
solution, but we know that there are people in need tonight in
our country. They are the producers, our farmers and their
families, who may not be putting in a crop again, who face
personal loss, and not only of their jobs. It is more than a
job. It is a way of life for so many and I think all of us have
been touched by those who have lived that life.
It is for that very reason that as we leave this place tonight
we need to put action to our words. I implore my colleagues on
the government side to use whatever influence they may have with
the ministers and with those who have the opportunity to move
ahead on regulatory changes, input taxes and the foreign
subsidies that have been mentioned. I implore them to move ahead
on those things and do what they can. People across the country
are waiting for that and looking for leadership from this place.
Tonight's debate has been a great opportunity. I hope the
importance of this issue is not lost on any of us. It is my
sincere hope and wish, as I think it is the wish of all members,
that as we leave this place tonight we do not just
compartmentalize this debate, put it on the shelf and say that we
did our job. It is my sincere hope and wish that we move forward
on the initiatives that have been suggested and look for real
solutions to help real people who are in dire straits tonight
across our country.
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: It being midnight, I declare the motion
carried.
The House therefore stands adjourned until tomorrow at 2 p.m.,
pursuant to Standing Order 24.
(The House adjourned at 12 a.m.)