37th Parliament, 1st Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 067
CONTENTS
Tuesday, May 29, 2001
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
1005
| CANADIAN FORCES PROVOST MARSHALL
|
| Mr. John O'Reilly |
| GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Aboriginal Affairs, Northern Development and Natural
|
| Ms. Nancy Karetak-Lindell |
| PUBLIC SERVICE WHISTLEBLOWING ACT
|
| Bill C-351. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Greg Thompson |
1010
| CRIMINAL CODE
|
| Bill C-352. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Myron Thompson |
| CRIMINAL CODE
|
| Bill C-353. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Myron Thompson |
1015
| CRIMINAL CODE
|
| Bill C-354. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Myron Thompson |
| PETITIONS
|
| The Environment
|
| Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
| QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| YOUTH CRIMINAL JUSTICE ACT
|
| Bill C-7. Third reading
|
| Hon. Ethel Blondin-Andrew |
| Mr. John Maloney |
1020
1025
| Mr. Chuck Cadman |
1030
1035
1040
1045
1050
1055
| Mr. Michel Bellehumeur |
1100
1105
| POINTS OF ORDER
|
| Tabling of Documents
|
| Mr. Rob Anders |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| YOUTH CRIMINAL JUSTICE ACT
|
| Bill C-7. Third reading
|
| Mr. Michel Bellehumeur |
1110
1115
1120
1125
1130
1135
1140
1145
| POINTS OF ORDER
|
| Tabling of Documents—Speaker's Ruling
|
| The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair) |
| Mr. Ken Epp |
| Mr. Rob Anders |
1150
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| YOUTH CRIMINAL JUSTICE ACT
|
| Bill C-7. Third reading
|
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
1155
1200
1205
1210
1215
| Mr. Pat Martin |
1220
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
1225
| Mrs. Marlene Jennings |
1230
1235
| Mr. Antoine Dubé |
1240
| Mr. Steve Mahoney |
1245
1250
1255
| Mr. Odina Desrochers |
| Mrs. Betty Hinton |
1300
| Mr. Myron Thompson |
1305
1310
| Mr. Dennis Mills |
1315
| Mr. Werner Schmidt |
1320
1325
| Mr. Darrel Stinson |
1330
| Ms. Carole-Marie Allard |
1335
1340
1345
| Mr. Odina Desrochers |
1350
| Ms. Carole-Marie Allard |
1355
| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
| FIVE PIN BOWLING CHAMPIONSHIP
|
| Mr. Mark Assad |
| IMMIGRATION
|
| Mr. Inky Mark |
1400
| CAMERA D'OR
|
| Ms. Nancy Karetak-Lindell |
| GREAT CANADIAN GEOGRAPHY CHALLENGE
|
| Mr. Jeannot Castonguay |
| SPAIN
|
| Ms. Carole-Marie Allard |
| HUMAN RIGHTS
|
| Mr. Deepak Obhrai |
| COMMUNITY SAFETY AND CRIME PREVENTION
|
| Ms. Judy Sgro |
1405
| ANDRÉE RUEST
|
| Mr. Ghislain Fournier |
| W.W. BOYCE FARMERS MARKET
|
| Hon. Andy Scott |
| PARKS CANADA
|
| Ms. Cheryl Gallant |
| THE ECONOMY
|
| Mr. Robert Bertrand |
1410
| MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY
|
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
| BLOC QUEBECOIS YOUTH FORUM
|
| Mr. Richard Marceau |
| MICHENER-DEACON FELLOWSHIP
|
| Ms. Raymonde Folco |
| PUBLIC SERVICE WHISTLEBLOWING
|
| Mr. Greg Thompson |
| THE ENVIRONMENT
|
| Mr. Tony Tirabassi |
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Mr. Garry Breitkreuz |
1415
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
| NATIONAL DEFENCE
|
| Mr. Stockwell Day |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Stockwell Day |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Stockwell Day |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Peter Goldring |
| Hon. Art Eggleton |
1420
| Mr. Peter Goldring |
| Hon. Art Eggleton |
| YOUNG OFFENDERS
|
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
| Mr. Michel Bellehumeur |
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
| Mr. Michel Bellehumeur |
1425
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
| NUCLEAR INDUSTRY
|
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Mr. Denis Paradis |
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Mr. Denis Paradis |
| ACCESS TO INFORMATION
|
| Right Hon. Joe Clark |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Right Hon. Joe Clark |
1430
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
| FOREIGN AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. Monte Solberg |
| Mr. Denis Paradis |
| Mr. Monte Solberg |
| Mr. Denis Paradis |
| YOUNG OFFENDERS
|
| Mr. Michel Gauthier |
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
| Mr. Michel Gauthier |
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
1435
| TAXATION
|
| Mr. David Chatters |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| Mr. David Chatters |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| DEPARTMENT OF CANADIAN HERITAGE
|
| Ms. Christiane Gagnon |
| Hon. Sheila Copps |
| Ms. Christiane Gagnon |
| Hon. Sheila Copps |
| ENERGY
|
| Mr. Brian Pallister |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Brian Pallister |
1440
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| HUMAN RIGHTS
|
| Ms. Jean Augustine |
| Hon. Rey Pagtakhan |
| TAXATION
|
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| FISHERIES
|
| Mr. Yvon Godin |
| Mr. Lawrence O'Brien |
| THE ENVIRONMENT
|
| Mr. André Bachand |
| Hon. Art Eggleton |
1445
| Mr. André Bachand |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| DAIRY INDUSTRY
|
| Mr. Howard Hilstrom |
| Hon. Pierre Pettigrew |
| Mr. Howard Hilstrom |
| Hon. Pierre Pettigrew |
| HEALTH RESEARCH INSTITUTES
|
| Mr. Réal Ménard |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| Mr. Réal Ménard |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
1450
| IMMIGRATION
|
| Mr. Philip Mayfield |
| Hon. Elinor Caplan |
| Mr. Philip Mayfield |
| Hon. Elinor Caplan |
| TRADE
|
| Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
| Mr. John Cannis |
| MULTICULTURALISM
|
| Mr. Gurmant Grewal |
| Hon. Hedy Fry |
1455
| Mr. Gurmant Grewal |
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| NAV CANADA
|
| Mr. Benoît Sauvageau |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| WOMEN'S HEALTH
|
| Ms. Diane St-Jacques |
| Hon. Allan Rock |
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Ms. Carol Skelton |
| Hon. Ralph Goodale |
| MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY
|
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
1500
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
| PRESENCE IN GALLERY
|
| The Speaker |
1505
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Citizenship and Immigration
|
| Mr. Joe Fontana |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| YOUTH CRIMINAL JUSTICE ACT
|
| Bill C-7. Third reading
|
| Mr. Mario Laframboise |
1510
1515
| Ms. Carole-Marie Allard |
1520
| Mr. Michel Bellehumeur |
| Mr. Tom Wappel |
1525
1530
| Mr. Michel Bellehumeur |
1535
| Mr. Lynn Myers |
1540
1545
| Mr. Randy White |
1550
1555
1600
| Mr. David Anderson |
1605
1610
| Mr. John Maloney |
| Mr. Dennis Mills |
1615
1620
| Mr. Myron Thompson |
1625
| Mr. Jerry Pickard |
1630
1635
| Mr. Myron Thompson |
1640
| Mr. Paul Forseth |
1645
| Mr. Rick Casson |
1650
1655
1700
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
| Mr. John Maloney |
1705
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
1710
| Mr. Gurmant Grewal |
1715
1740
(Division 105)
| Motion agreed to
|
| PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
| INCOME TAX ACT
|
| Bill C-222. Second reading
|
1750
(Division 106)
| Motion negatived
|
1755
| PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION
|
| Motion
|
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
1800
1805
1810
| Mr. Scott Reid |
1815
1820
| PRESENCE IN GALLERY
|
| The Deputy Speaker |
| PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION
|
| Motion
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
1825
| Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
1830
1835
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Citizenship and Immigration
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| Motion
|
| PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
| PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION
|
| Motion
|
| Mr. Greg Thompson |
1840
1845
| Mr. Clifford Lincoln |
1850
1855
| ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
|
| National Defence
|
| Mr. Greg Thompson |
1900
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
1905
| Employment
|
| Mr. Loyola Hearn |
| Ms. Raymonde Folco |
1910
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 067
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Tuesday, May 29, 2001
The House met at 10 a.m.
Prayers
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
1005
[English]
CANADIAN FORCES PROVOST MARSHALL
Mr. John O'Reilly (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing
Order 32(2) I have the honour to table, in both official
languages, two copies of the 2000 annual report of the Canadian
Forces Provost Marshall.
* * *
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 36 I have the honour to table, in both
official languages, the government's response to three petitions.
* * *
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS, NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT AND NATURAL
RESOURCES
Ms. Nancy Karetak-Lindell (Nunavut, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have the honour to present, in both official languages, the fifth
report of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs, Northern
Development and Natural Resources.
Pursuant to the order of reference of Friday, May 18, 2001, your
committee has considered Bill S-24, an act to implement an
agreement between the Mohawks of Kanesatake and Her Majesty in
right of Canada respecting governance of certain lands by the
Mohawks of Kanesatake and to amend an act in consequence.
Your committee has agreed to report it without amendment.
* * *
PUBLIC SERVICE WHISTLEBLOWING ACT
Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, PC), seconded
by the hon. member for Winnipeg Centre, moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-351, an act to assist in the prevention of
wrongdoing in the public service by establishing a framework for
education on ethical practices in the workplace, for dealing with
allegations of wrongdoing and for protecting whistleblowers.
1010
He said: Mr. Speaker, the whistleblowers bill is very much in
the same flavour, somewhat identical to Bill C-206 submitted to
the House by the member next to me. Basically it is the same
bill, another whistleblowers bill which is identical to the bill
introduced in the other place by Senator Kinsella.
It is an example of how parliament could and should work
together to get things done. It is a bill that should have been
brought in by the government of the day because obviously it was
a red book promise in 1993.
We have had a series of bills submitted to the House over the
past few parliaments, recognizing that the public servants of
Canada need protection so that they can bring breaches of ethics
and ethical practices to the forefront without punishment from
their employers. The bill would also establish a framework of
education on ethical practices within the public service.
I am hoping the bill will be drawn for debate and will become a
votable bill. Certainly we have support from both sides of the
House, and I hope the government will see fit to bring a bill
forward if we cannot do it as private members.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Canadian Alliance) moved
for leave to introduce Bill C-352, an act to amend the Criminal
Code (dangerous offender).
He said: Mr. Speaker, this private member's bill is entitled an
act to amend the criminal code respecting dangerous offenders. It
provides an application under section 753 of the criminal code to
deem people dangerous offenders before they are released from
prison for an offence on parole or mandatory supervision or on
the date when the sentence expires.
Too many times frontline police officers and parole officials
have been warned that individuals should not be put back into
society since they are in danger of reoffending. The bill would
prevent that from happening.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Canadian Alliance) moved
for leave to introduce Bill C-353, an act to amend the Criminal
Code (arrest without warrant).
He said: Mr. Speaker, my second private member's bill is
entitled an act to amend the criminal code respecting arrest
without warrant. It is based on a number of meetings I have had
with police officers across Canada in which they have repeatedly
stated that they need more power to enforce the law in order to
make society safer.
The bill helps them achieve that by giving peace officers the
power to arrest without a warrant a person who is in breach of a
probation order binding the person or a condition of the person's
parole.
Presently they can only notify parole officers and sometimes it
takes so long that a crime is committed. This would prevent that
from happening.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
1015
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Canadian Alliance) moved
for leave to introduce Bill C-354, an act to amend the Criminal
Code (taking samples of bodily substances).
He said: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to introduce Bill C-354, an
act to amend the criminal code by taking samples of bodily
substances. The idea for the bill came from Bev and Lloyd
Bergeson of Cremona, Alberta, who lost their daughter Janiece to
a dangerous driver.
The bill would allow a peace officer, who has reasonable or
probable grounds to believe that a person is operating a motor
vehicle in a dangerous manner and has caused the death of another
person, to demand that the person provide a urine, breath or
blood sample to determine the concentration of any alcohol in the
person's blood.
The bill would ensure that those who are suspected of driving
drunk would be tested immediately by a police officer. There
would no longer be any reason to delay the testing of a person as
a result of the bill.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
PETITIONS
THE ENVIRONMENT
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I am very pleased to table a petition signed by
residents in my constituency of Winnipeg North Centre and other
citizens of Winnipeg.
The petitioners are concerned that cellular telephone towers and
antennae and the radio frequency electromagnetic radiation that
they emit have not been proven to be unsafe. They are concerned
about possible biological changes as a result of RF emissions.
They are also concerned that the introduction of cellular towers
into residential areas could be problematic in terms of the
health and well-being of those neighbourhoods and the residents
in these areas.
They call upon parliament to impose a moratorium on the erection
of cellular telephone antennae and towers in residential areas
and to create federal standards for cellular telephone and
antennae locations that apply to principles of prudent avoidance.
* * *
[Translation]
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I ask
that all questions be allowed to stand.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
YOUTH CRIMINAL JUSTICE ACT
Hon. Ethel Blondin-Andrew (for the Minister of Justice)
moved that Bill C-7, an act in respect of criminal justice for
young persons and to amend and repeal other acts, be read the
third time and passed.
Mr. John Maloney (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
am pleased to speak today to Bill C-7, the youth criminal justice
act.
The youth criminal justice act is a balanced, fair and effective
approach to youth justice that is supported by a majority of
Canadians.
Of course, there are many views on how to address a topic as
complex as youth crime and the youth justice system. Some argue
that the youth criminal justice act is too harsh. Others argue it
is too weak and not tough enough. The federal government, which
is responsible for criminal law, has heard these views and
considered them in the development of the youth criminal justice
act.
The youth criminal justice act is not about what is tough or
easy, but about what is fair and appropriate. I would like to
focus my comments today on recent get tough recommendations made
by the attorney general of Ontario.
Before addressing some of Ontario's specific recommendations, I
will first comment on Ontario's claim that it has not been
allowed to voice its concerns about the youth criminal justice
act. This claim is simply baseless.
The Minister of Justice met with provincial and territorial
ministers of justice on this issue on a number of occasions and
she has heard Ontario's views. Furthermore, Ontario, like all
other provinces, was invited to have its officials participate in
the parliamentary committee hearings on the bill. It was
Ontario's choice to decline to participate in this forum.
Instead, it held its own hearings after three years of
consultation and debate.
1020
Let us turn to some of Ontario's recommendations in its get
tough approach.
Ontario recommends that 16 and 17 year olds be automatically
tried and sentenced as adults when charged with a serious
offence, such as murder, attempted murder and manslaughter. This
recommendation is part of Ontario's call for adult time for adult
crime. This may be a catchy sound bite but it is a terribly
flawed youth justice policy.
Bill C-7 makes it clear that 16 and 17 year olds who commit
serious offences can receive an adult sentence. The bill
provides a presumption that a young person 14 years of age or
older found guilty of the most serious offences should receive an
adult sentence. These offences include murder, attempted murder,
manslaughter, aggravated sexual assault and repeated other
serious violent offences. The presumption means that it is up to
the young person to persuade the judge that he or she should
receive a youth sentence rather than an adult sentence.
Bill C-7 also permits provincial prosecutors to apply for an
adult sentence for any offence for which an adult would liable to
more than two years in prison. This allows provincial
prosecutors to request an adult sentence for a wide range of
offences.
Unlike Ontario's proposal, the youth criminal justice act does
not make adult sentences automatic. The youth criminal justice
act reflects a belief that judges can be trusted to consider the
specific circumstances of a case and to determine whether a
particular offence and offender requires an adult sentence. It
also assumes that provincial prosecutors can be trusted to seek
an adult sentence in appropriate cases. If the judge finds that
a youth sentence would not be adequate to hold the young person
accountable, the judge is required to impose an adult sentence.
Ontario's proposal neglects to take into account that judges,
after having heard all the elements of the case before them and
after consideration of the facts, are best placed to determine
whether a youth sentence would be adequate to hold the young
person accountable or if an adult sentence is appropriate.
Ontario apparently does not trust its own prosecutors to use
their judgment, consider the circumstances of a particular
offence and apply for an adult sentence in appropriate cases.
Allow me to address another area of Ontario's concerns. Ontario
recommends applying adult parole provisions to young people who
have received an adult sentence for murder.
Under Bill C-7, if a young person receives an adult sentence for
first degree murder a life sentence would be imposed. What is
fundamental to a youth justice system is the underlying principle
that a youth has a better chance of rehabilitation and a
re-integration into the community. This is precisely the reason
for which we have allowed for intensive rehabilitation programs
to be initiated where appropriate.
It is important to remember that no one serving an adult murder
sentence would be released unless the parole board is satisfied
that the public would not be at risk if the person were to serve
a portion of the sentence in the community, under supervision.
Ontario also recommends that the maximum youth sentence be
increased. Ontario fails to specify what the maximum youth
sentence should be and it fails to provide any rationale for
increasing the maximum sentence.
The youth criminal justice act does not increase the maximum
youth sentences for a good reason. There is no evidence that
judges have found the existing maximum sentences to be not long
enough. Longer maximum sentences are not required to impose
meaningful consequences that are fair and proportionate to the
seriousness of the offence. Longer maximum sentences would not
increase the likelihood that the young person will be
rehabilitated.
Ontario may not be aware that young persons often receive
sentences that are more severe than the sentences adults receive
for the same offence. For example, for eight of the nine most
common offences in youth court, youth currently receive longer
periods of custody than adults who receive custody for the same
offence. In addition, youths spend more time in custody than
adults with similar sentences due to the adult conditional
release provisions. These are interesting statistics indeed.
Ontario further recommends mandatory non-discretional sentences
for 12 to 15 year olds who receive a youth sentence for murder.
Under the youth criminal justice act, the judge must impose a
custodial sentence for murder. The maximum youth sentence for a
first degree murder is 10 years and the maximum youth sentence
for a second degree murder is 7 years. The judge determines what
proportion of the sentence will be served in custody and what
portion of the sentence will be served in the community, under
conditional supervision. If the young person breaches a
condition of the conditional supervision, he or she can be
returned to custody.
It is very unusual for 12 to 15 year olds to commit murder. If
such an event occurs, it requires a careful consideration of all
the circumstances of the offence and flexibility for the judge to
design a sentence that will hold the young person accountable for
the offence by imposing meaningful consequences while promoting
the rehabilitation of the young person.
This is the approach taken in the youth criminal justice act. It
is based on the assumption that judges are quite capable of
exercising their discretion appropriately.
1025
Ontario recommends that co-accused adults and a young person be
tried together. Bill C-7 is based on the fundamental principle
that young persons aged 12 to 17 are not adults and they are
entitled to separate rules and procedures to take into account
their reduced level of maturity.
For nearly 100 years in Canada, young persons charged with
offences have been tried separately from adults. A separate
trial for young persons and youth courts are a cornerstone of the
youth justice system in Canada and throughout the western world.
Although joint trials are possible under the Young Offenders
Act, if a young person is transferred to an adult court they are
rarely used, and the current transfer process has many problems,
including complexity, long delays and unfairness. These problems
are addressed in Bill C-7 through the new adult sentencing
provisions. All youths would be tried in youth court and only if
and when the youth has been found guilty does a court turn its
mind to the appropriate sentence. This is fairer and more
efficient.
Ontario further recommends that the focus on alternatives to
custody be removed. The youth criminal justice act emphasizes
the importance of alternatives to custody because a major problem
under the Young Offenders Act is the very high use of custody,
particularly for the less serious and non-violent offences.
The youth incarceration rate is higher in Canada than in other
western countries, including the United States. The youth
incarceration rate is higher than the adult incarceration rate in
Canada.
About 80% of custodial youth sentences are for non-violent
offences. Alternatives to custody, such as requiring the young
person to repair the harm caused to the victim, can be more
meaningful and more effective than custody in terms of
rehabilitation.
Ontario locks up more than 12,000 young persons a year. Ontario
has one of the highest rates in the country of incarcerating
first offenders found guilty of minor theft. Ontario has been
criticized by its own provincial auditor for wasting taxpayer
dollars by failing to use more alternatives to custody.
Bill C-7 emphasizes the importance of alternatives to custody
while retaining considerable discretion for judges to decide on a
fair sentence that holds the young person accountable based on
principles of proportionality and promoting the rehabilitation of
the young person.
Ontario also recommends that the youth criminal justice act
permit publication of the identity of any young offender who is
14 years or older and is charged with a serious offence for which
an adult sentence is being sought for the duration of the trial.
This recommendation would mean that whenever a provincial
prosecutor decides to seek an adult sentence the identity of the
young person would be made public before a judge even determines
whether the young person was guilty of the offence. This would
place enormous power in the hands of prosecutors. It would be
fundamentally unfair to young persons who are entitled to be
presumed innocent and would largely destroy the longstanding
protection of privacy of young persons.
The youth criminal justice act would provide a much fairer
approach. It would permit the publication of a young person's
identity after a young person has been found guilty of the
offence and a judge has determined that an adult sentence is
necessary to hold the young person accountable.
It is clear that Ontario's recommendations cannot be supported.
Ontario's approach is overly punitive and fails to recognize that
young people are not adults. It is not supported by research and
it is not reflective of the approach that most Canadians support.
It also reflects a fundamental lack of competence in judges and
prosecutors being able to exercise discretion to achieve fair,
proportionate results. It also lacks faith that youth can be
rehabilitated and reintegrated into communities.
Bill C-7 is a much more balanced, fair and effective approach to
youth justice. It would require meaningful consequences to be
imposed yet recognizes that such consequences do not necessarily
require incarceration or sending a young person to an adult
system. It emphasizes the importance of prevention,
rehabilitation and reintegration. It recognizes that young
persons are still maturing and should be treated differently from
adults. It recognizes that the circumstances of an offence can
be complicated and that judges should be able to consider these
circumstances in determining a fair, proportionate sentence.
The youth criminal justice act is legislation that most
Canadians support because, unlike Ontario's approach, it is based
on fundamental principles of fairness.
Mr. Chuck Cadman (Surrey North, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, finally we are reaching the last stage of bringing forth
a new law in respect of young criminal offenders.
1030
When I first came to this place in 1997, I remember the minister
commenting on how youth justice was on her list of priorities and
had been since the previous spring. It is now the spring of
2001, four years later. Four years for this piece of legislation
is just a little much, especially when we look at the lack of the
quality of this bill.
Canadians soon became disenchanted with the Young Offenders Act
when it replaced the Juvenile Delinquents Act, but just wait
until this youth criminal justice act begins its journey through
our courts and through our justice system. It is an abysmal
attempt to relegislate our youth justice law. It is complicated
and will be extremely costly, as legal argument after legal
argument is made over what parliament's intention was when it is
passed.
The bill will unduly delay justice for young offenders, for
victims of youth crime and for communities. Anyone listening to
this speech will quite naturally ask why. Because this
government was never interested in listening to sound arguments
and suggestions for improvement. Why? Because the government
had a preconceived strategy to merely go through the motions over
a number of years and appear to hear from interested parties from
one end of this country to the other, while having no intention
of deviating from its own determination of what was right for its
citizens.
I will spend just a few moments to outline the progress of this
legislation.
In 1997 the justice committee completed a cross country review
of the Young Offenders Act and made a number of recommendations.
One of the most significant recommendations of that committee was
to include 10 and 11 year olds under the youth justice
legislation. Remember that Liberals controlled the committee as
they made up the majority of the body. The committee heard of a
number of tragic cases whereby 10 and 11 year olds were
committing serious and violent crimes, and thumbing their noses
at police and the justice system. These young law breakers knew
that the present law would not touch them.
The committee also heard case after case whereby social welfare
or children aid facilities lacked the expertise and the resources
to properly assist these delinquents to get back on to the
straight and narrow.
The justice committee recognized the necessity to bring 10 and
11 year olds into the more formal youth justice process for the
safety and security of communities, but especially for the
interest, guidance and protection of the offenders themselves.
There should be a definite desire to address misbehaviour before
it develops into more serious criminal activity and before it
becomes too late.
Bill C-7 fails to include 10 and 11 year old offenders. Those
who are in so much need for assistance and redirection will not
get it. The government does not seem to be interested in helping
those who desperately need it. The minister's answer seems to be
that we should just leave it to present social welfare
organizations even though it has been acknowledged that they are
failing and have failed in that regard.
In 1997 the provinces of Alberta, Manitoba, Prince Edward Island
and Ontario came to an agreement on youth justice at what was
known as the Prince Edward Island conference. One of the
proposed amendments to the Young Offenders Act was to reduce the
age of criminal accountability. As I already mentioned, this
aspect was completely ignored by the government's youth
legislation even though those provinces represented a significant
portion of the country.
Those provinces also agreed on a number of issues, such as:
first, providing for easier transfer to adult court and automatic
identification of repeat and serious offenders; second,
application of their victim surcharge to young offenders; third,
restriction of legal aid to circumstances where youth or the
guardians cannot afford to pay for legal services; and fourth,
mandatory custody for offences involving the use of weapons.
Needless to say the government did not listen to these
provinces. Their proposals were ignored and disregarded. This
was in spite of the fact that it was the provinces that were on
the ground floor, so to speak, on the whole aspect of youth
justice.
In Canada the provinces have constitutional responsibility to
administer our youth criminal law. The federal government merely
makes the law and leaves it to the provinces to try to administer
whatever mess the legislation creates. No wonder we often
question why the provinces and the federal government seem to be
at odds with each other over so many areas of mutual involvement.
Our constitution could not have been drafted any better for the
federal government. It writes the law and then when the law
causes difficulty, impossibilities, criticism and outrage, it
merely points an accusing finger at the provinces and their
administration of the legislation.
As we can see, the government refused to listen to its own
justice committee and it refused to listen to the provinces, its
partners in the youth justice process. I do not know how much
influence the minister even had over her own legislation. We all
hear how the Prime Minister's Office seems to dictate and direct
almost everything that happens in parliament. I do know that she
is ultimately responsible as this legislation has her name on it.
However, so far I have only spoken about the situation back in
1997. She still had a lot of time to rectify legislation that
was so far off track. After all, she still had debate in this
place to consider.
The justice committee would also have had the opportunity to
review the legislation and propose changes, and the House would
have had the opportunity at report stage to consider further
proposals.
1035
I remember very well the fall of 1997 and spring of 1998 because
it was when I first came here. For a number of months the
minister kept answering questions about legislation to replace
the Young Offenders Act. Upon her appointment as Minister of
Justice in the early summer of 1997, she stressed that a new
youth justice program was among her priorities. She also
characterized the Young Offenders Act as “easily the most
unpopular piece of federal legislation”.
For the rest of 1997, all 1998 and into the spring of 1999, the
official opposition pressured the minister to introduce her long
promised legislation. We all should remember her continual
claims that it would be coming to the House in a timely manner or
fashion.
In March 1999 it finally arrived as Bill C-68. It was little
more than a revision of the Young Offenders Act. A significant
number of experts and persons involved with the youth justice
process criticized the legislation as being as bad as or worse
than the Young Offenders Act. Others characterized it as being
essentially the Young Offenders Act with a new name, the youth
criminal justice act. In any case, the government merely brought
in the legislation to put off the pressure that had been coming
from all directions over just where the youth justice legislation
was.
Not much was done with Bill C-68 when the House recessed for the
summer of 1999. Over the summer the Prime Minister prorogued
parliament and the bill died on the order paper. It should have
stayed dead.
At the beginning of the second session of the 36th parliament,
the justice minister again talked about youth justice legislation
appearing in a timely manner. She then reintroduced her
legislation as Bill C-3. It was nothing more than Bill C-68 with
a new number. From its introduction in October 1999 until
parliament was dissolved in October 2000, the government had
clearly indicated that it was not open to suggestions. After
almost a year before the justice committee, and after a
significant amount of witness testimony, the Liberal dominated
justice committee referred the bill to the House of Commons
unchanged.
The committee did not deal with any of the submitted amendments.
It received approximately 250 proposed amendments, including
roughly 150 from the government itself which were primarily
technical in nature. The Bloc submitted two amendments. In
summary, its amendments were to keep the Young Offenders Act or
exempt Quebec from the youth criminal justice act, allowing the
province to continue operating under the Young Offenders Act.
The Progressive Conservatives had some very practical
suggestions that would likely have received support from many
members of the official opposition. The NDP proposals were not
generally in accordance with our views and we likely would not
have supported them.
I proposed approximately 50 substantial amendments which
followed much of what had been heard through the justice
committee process, as well as a number of changes to simplify
what many experts deemed to be a complex piece of legislation
that would become a haven for legal arguments throughout the
various court levels. Youthful offenders would be subject to
inordinate delays, legal aid costs would sore, as would costs for
court administration, crown attorneys and police.
At report stage of Bill C-3, the opposition parties and the
government resubmitted their committee amendments. In addition,
the Bloc decided to filibuster the process and presented more
than 3,000 proposals to send a message of its dissatisfaction
with the bill. Consequently, Bill C-3 died on the order paper
with the election call in October 2000.
The legislation was essentially reintroduced as Bill C-7 in this
parliament. It was almost in the same format as it was when it
was known as Bill C-68 in 1999. In over two years the government
merely reaffirmed its intention of refusing to accept any
significant change.
Just recently the minister, in response to one of my questions
in the House, attempted to confuse Canadians when she suggested
that she had made some 182 amendments to her youth criminal
justice legislation. Yes, she made about that number of changes,
but at least 90% of them were as a result of poor drafting in the
first place. The government, after almost two years as a
priority and after months of promises to bring forth legislation
in a timely fashion, ended up rushing the law into parliament
with a significant number of French translation problems and a
number of inconsistencies between various clauses.
Other amendments included in Bill C-7 were as a result of the
government finally recognizing some of the problems created by
its legislation. Some things would just not work as set out in
Bill C-68 and Bill C-3.
1040
Other changes came about as a result of lobbying by special
interest groups because they came from left field and had never
been discussed or argued before the justice committee. However
not one word changed as a result of the work of the justice
committee or the amendments proposed by the opposition. As I
said before, the government was obviously not ever in a position
to consider amendments through the parliamentary review process.
It was a done deal.
The whole process of parliamentary review has been in fact a
sham. The opposition, the government backbenchers, the committee
process are merely window dressing to assist the government in
selling its program for youth justice. There has never really
been an open review toward improving proposed legislation. It
has already been decided that only the powers within this
government know what is best for Canadians. Some might say that
is indeed a shame.
I say it is essentially a fraud on the Canadian people. We are
all sent here to do a job as best we can and to have our input
into having legislation take into account the interests and
concerns of all the various parts of the country. When we are
essentially placed in a position of merely going through the
motions for appearances sake, the something is drastically wrong
with the process.
Some listeners may suggest I am being unduly harsh and critical
of this legislation. I do so because of my concern for a proper
and effective response to the universally accepted failure of the
Young Offenders Act. When the country fails to properly address
youth crime, we fail those young persons who get themselves on
the wrong side of the law. When the process becomes so time
consuming and complicated that many offenders are able to beat
the system, we lead them and their peers into believing that they
can get away with breaking our laws. When we fail to properly
rehabilitate those young offenders, we do them no favour as it
often becomes too late to subsequently bring them back on track.
It is not just the offender. What about the family of the
offender who sit on the sidelines to witness that young person
repeat and perhaps move on to more serious and violent crime?
What about the victims of those initial and repeat crimes? It is
a common fact that the most common victim of youth crime is
another youth. Young people assault other young people. Young
people sexually assault other young persons. The list goes on.
What about the communities? When a young offender does not
receive proper guidance and reformation, that person will likely
reoffend against the same community against which he committed
his original crime.
No wonder citizens and communities do not feel safe and secure
these days. We have all heard the horror stories of the failure
of the Young Offenders Act. I am afraid we will hear the same
stories when this youth criminal justice act works its way
through the system.
The government has had almost four years to bring in an
efficient and effective bill to address the youth justice
problem. It has had the opportunity to hear from experts and
professionals from right across the country. It has had the
opportunity to hear from the provinces to address their concerns.
It could have done a much better job than Bill C-7.
I fully appreciate that many members and Canadians have not had
the opportunity to spend the time on this legislation as I have.
I have been the official opposition justice critic responsible to
watchdog this particular piece of legislation. As well, I have
been a member of the justice committee since the bill first saw
the light of day back in 1999.
I would like to cover a few aspects of my concerns. The
minister likes to play lawyer games and provide half truths and
worse about this bill. It is her job to sell the legislation
after all. She needs the support and she is forced to sing the
song to get it.
First, the bill formerly recognizes a process of what has been
described as diversion or alternative programming. The process
has been around for a number of years, and I have worked with it
myself for over five years now. It is essentially an informal
process of dealing with the young person who becomes sidetracked
and breaks our criminal law. Specified members of the community,
the offender and perhaps the victim get together and decide how
to best recognize the damage done and how best to have that
offender address the misconduct and the misbehaviour. The
offender accepts blame, faced agreed upon consequences and moves
on with his or her live hopefully having learned the error of his
or her ways. The program has a good success rate, when limited
in scope.
The problem with Bill C-7 is that this procedure is not
restrictive. It is open for repeat offenders and is available
for violent offenders. Being an informal system, there will be
little, if any, accounting to ensure that the offender has
learned the error of his or her ways if the system permits
offence after offence without a more formal and serious reaction
by society to the criminal behaviour.
The minister said that it would be up to the provinces to police
or administer. We proposed to limit this scheme to no-violent
first time offenders, essentially a one time opportunity to avoid
a criminal record and get back on track. The minister refused to
consider this proposal and has merely dumped the problem on to
the provinces.
1045
The problem of extrajudicial measures is very similar to the
government's introduction of conditional sentencing a few years
back. Conditional sentencing was brought in for adults to permit
less serious offenders to serve their sentences at home. However,
in that case as well, the government did not limit the use of
that form of more lenient sentencing. We have seen our courts
provide home sentencing to violent, serious and repeat offenders.
Victims and communities are outraged.
The minister has finally recognized that there is a problem and
that it should now be studied. Are we to end up with the same
problem with youth extrajudicial measures when it is allowed for
violent and repeat youth offenders? I thoroughly support
diversion and alternative measures but their use must be
restricted, otherwise its whole use will come into disrepute.
Once again, however, the government will not listen.
There is also major concern over the legislation and its
presumptive offence scheme. For some reason the government has
severely restricted the list of offences for which a young person
is liable for automatic adult sentencing and identification. The
minister has been saying that there is provision for naming those
who receive adult sentences. What she has not said is that there
is also provision for those young persons to apply to have their
identity protected.
There is also major concern over the lack of sufficient
resources for our youth justice process. For years now the
federal government has been delinquent in paying its share of the
50/50 cost of youth justice with the provinces. The minister has
been trumpeting the fact that the government has allotted $206
million over three years toward the initiation costs of the new
youth criminal justice act. Nowhere has she acknowledged the
already significant shortfall on the shared financial obligation
toward youth justice.
Two hundred and six million dollars sounds like a lot of money,
and it is, but it is over three years and it is for all the
provinces. The provinces are already raising the red flag that
there has been no real cost analysis of the increased demands of
the changes proposed by the legislation.
Obviously in the past this government has not been too concerned
about ensuring that young offenders receive sufficient and proper
supervision and rehabilitation. The government's cheating on the
50/50 formula is evidence of that. It is no wonder there is so
much skepticism about whether the $206 million will be adequate
to address the additional demands of this law. We are going into
the new initiative with no idea of its cost. Only the Liberal
government operates in this fashion.
Then there is the opting out clause, clause 61, whereby the
provinces can create a different criminal law from province to
province. Under this clause, an offence as serious as murder
would be treated differently depending on the province in which
it is committed.
The government is not too keen to hear criticism of the
legislation. It is bringing in closure on debate of the bill.
Whenever it gets into trouble it does that. How many Canadians
realize that the legislation would reduce sentences for the most
serious offenders? The bill would mandate a supervisory or
probationary period after custody. That period would be half the
custody period. Therefore, instead of serving a maximum sentence
of three years in custody, as was done under the Young Offenders
Act, the most serious offenders would only need to serve two
years in custody and would be able to serve another year at home
under some form of supervision.
The minister often relies on the fact that the Bloc criticizes
the legislation as too harsh and the Canadian Alliance criticizes
it as too soft. She says that she has a balanced approach that
is between the two alternatives.
With all due respect, if the bill is hopelessly flawed—and I
would use stronger terms but that might be unparliamentary—then
it is expected that the opposition parties will disagree with it
from different angles. The minister's response is a copout. She
has failed in her duty to develop proper and effective
legislation.
Mr. Speaker, I know you are aware that about eight and a half
years ago my son Jesse was murdered as he walked home with two
friends from a party on a Saturday night. He was murdered in
what was determined to be a random, unprovoked attack on the
street by six total strangers. He was knocked to the ground
unconscious, beaten, pummelled with a shopping cart and stabbed
once in the back as he lay on the road. A 16 year old was
charged and eventually convicted. I can therefore say that I
have experienced the youth justice system from an entirely
different perspective than most members in this place.
My family and I spent 20 months in the courts. We experienced
the youth justice process. We heard the excuses. We went
through a transfer hearing. We heard counsellors come in and say
that the offender did not need to be transferred to adult court
because all he needed was to finish high school and receive
alcohol counselling.
In the ensuing years I have come to know many families of
victims of young offenders.
1050
Less than a week after my son was murdered there was a case in
Courtenay, British Columbia, where a young girl, six years old,
was murdered by her neighbour. He was 15 at the time and was on
probation for sexually assaulting three young children a year
earlier. The reason that happened was that under his probation
conditions no one was monitoring him and he was allowed to play
with young children. The police did not even know about him and
his neighbours certainly did not know about him.
That opened my eyes to the whole issue of anonymity for young
offenders. I have been a firm believer ever since that people
must be aware when they have sex offenders in the community, even
if they are young offenders.
There is also the case of Mr. Graham Niven, a 31 year old man
murdered on the street by a 15 and an 18 year old. The last
thing Mr. Niven did in his life was help out a 14 year old by
giving him the last of the change in his pocket to take a taxi
home. A few minutes later he was dead at the hands of a 15 year
old.
I went to court with that family and had to sit through the
snickering, laughing and high fives that went on continuously
between the accused and his friends. That is the attitude some
of these young people have with our court system.
As a sideline, that offence occurred in Coquitlam. The mayor at
the time was Mr. Lou Sekora, a former member of this place. I
recall like yesterday the hoopla that Mr. Sekora raised. He said
he would come to Ottawa and change the Young Offenders Act.
However after a photo op with the former justice minister and a
bit of press for about a week we never again heard from Mr.
Sekora on the issue, even when he came to this place as a member.
It was more Liberal lip service.
Another case is that of Mrs. Jeanne Richter, a 79 year old widow
beaten to death by a 15 and a 19 year old. Young girls in the
courtroom who were friends of the accused were partying, winking,
smiling and laughing as if it were something that happens every
day. Again, that is the attitude.
I do not suggest for one minute that this is a reflection of all
young people. It is a very small minority. Unfortunately the
government, through this legislation and philosophy, chooses to
treat these young people the same way it would treat a 12 year
old shoplifter. That is wrong.
Yesterday during report stage debate I heard some of my
colleagues in the Bloc speak of an actor who spent time in a
youth facility studying for a part in a particular project and
decrying the treatment of young offenders in prisons. Things
could be done to improve the lot of young offenders who are
incarcerated. I certainly do not argue with that. However I
think the actor might like to spend time with me and my family,
even eight and a half years later. Within the last month two of
my son's best friends have seen the birth of their first
children. He should see how we deal with that.
There is a family in Alberta mourning the loss of a 16 year old
son just last week. Maybe the actor would like to spend a week
with them and see it from their perspective.
After my son's murder I made a commitment to try to effect
change. I have spoken at schools for the past eight years. I
have spoken with young people, parent groups and legislators. I
appeared before the justice committee a couple of times before I
came to this place. I have done so to increase awareness and to
make young people understand what they are doing, what they are
getting into. I think it gets through to most of them.
As I said before, I work with a diversion program because I
believe it is more important to prevent crime in the first place.
However that does not mean that those who choose to persist in
criminal behaviour or commit serious or multiple repeat offences
should be treated with leniency. As long as the philosophy
persists that killers and rapists should be treated in the same
manner as shoplifters, Canadians will never accept the process.
I will close my comments by saying that this is definitely not
the last we will hear of the youth criminal justice act. We will
be back time and time again to debate its failures and propose
changes. Instead of trying to get it right the first time the
government seems more intent on getting it passed as is and
leaving it to others to rectify. Unfortunately the bill is such
a mess that it will not and cannot be remedied piecemeal after it
passes this place. The bill is doomed to failure and as
parliamentarians we are failing Canadians by allowing it to
become law.
1055
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am
going to try to address the hon. members of this House without a
prepared speech, speaking from my heart rather than from my
head, in a final attempt to convince the government that it is
on the wrong track with this bill.
I am also going to try to convince the House that we in Quebec
did not just decide overnight to set off on a crusade against
the federal government on this young offenders bill.
I am sure that those who have studied the young offender
issue, and I know certain members on the other side have looked at
it very seriously, know deep down that they are off on the wrong
track by wishing to pass this bill at any price, come what may,
despite all that has been said in Quebec, and even in the other
Canadian provinces, about its complexity, about the fact that
the bill is going to be impossible to apply and above all will
not give the anticipated results.
Well before passage of the Young Offenders Act in 1984, Quebec
already had its approach to young offenders. It had the Loi sur
le bien-être social, which addressed young offenders and took a
very particular approach to them, before the federal government
enacted its young offender legislation in 1984. The Quebec
statute applied to young people aged 14, 15, 16 and 17,
particularly the 16 and 17 year olds who had committed serious
crimes.
The Quebec system took charge of these young people and
processed them through a system parallel to the one for adult
offenders.
At that time, we already had an infrastructure for handling
young people in trouble with the law. In 1984, with the great
wisdom of the House, prompted particularly by the paternalism of
the federal MPs—
[English]
Mr. Rob Anders: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I am wondering whether the House has a quorum.
And the count having been taken:
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): The House does not have
a quorum. Let the bells ring for a maximum of 15 minutes.
And the bells having rung:
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): We now have a quorum and
shall resume debate.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Mr. Speaker, I understand the Alliance
members are not happy to have me provide a background and make a
speech that is as apolitical as possible, a speech without
notes, as I was saying earlier. I want to speak to the members
of the House from my heart in a final effort to try to convince
the government members, especially those from Quebec, that they
are making a mistake with this bill.
Before the call for quorum, I was trying to provide a brief
backgrounder on the issue of young offenders in Quebec. Even
before the federal government became involved in the matter with
the passage in 1984 of the Young Offenders Act in Quebec, we
already had an infrastructure for young people in difficulty
with the law, especially those aged 16 and 17 involved in
serious crime.
1100
One fine day, with a view to having some sort of uniformity
across Canada, the federal government passed the Young Offenders
Act. There is good reason the law covers those aged up to 18
years. At the time, all the other provinces wanted the law to
apply to young people aged 12 to 16 only.
Why was the age limit increased to 18? It was because the Prime
Minister at the time was from Quebec and, regardless of what we
think of him, he held up his end on social issues.
The Prime Minister in question was Pierre Elliott Trudeau.
Quite honestly, he was not my idol, not at all, in his view of
Canada, and of Quebec in particular, but on social issues he
was on the mark, unlike the present Prime Minister.
He stood up before English Canada and made the maximum age in
the Young Offenders Act 18 years. From that point on, we
applied the Young Offenders Act in Quebec.
Throughout the period between 1984 and today—
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I want
to apologize for interrupting the member who was speaking.
Following discussions between the House leaders, I seek the
unanimous consent of the House to return to Routine Proceedings
in order to table a document.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): Is there unanimous consent of
the House?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
[English]
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Speaker, I wanted to table the
Report of the Commission to Review Allowances of
Parliamentarians. Nevertheless, I do not need the consent of the
House to do it, so I am giving it to the clerk. It is tabled
right now.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Mr. Speaker, I was
wondering whether the House really wanted to hear what I had to
say. I will continue with my speech as though nothing had
happened, although it is rather difficult to concentrate when
one is constantly interrupted. I hope that you will deduct the
time I lost because I do indeed intend to use the 40 minutes to
which I am entitled.
Quebec has long looked after its young offenders and views the
problem as a very important one. As I said, even before the
federal government passed the Young Offenders Act in 1984, we
were already addressing the problem of youths, particularly 16
and 17 year olds, who had committed serious offences through the
agency of various departments in Quebec, including the social
welfare department.
We also had young offenders legislation.
This was a matter that concerned us. From the outset, we
invested time and money putting together what we now call the
Quebec approach. This was not something we did overnight.
In 1984 the federal government decided to intervene and
introduce the Young Offenders Act for young people between the
ages of 12 and 18 in conflict with the law. This was based on
Quebec's approach at the time, because our young offenders
legislation was aimed at adolescents up to the age of 18.
Since 1984, the federal government has amended its legislation a
number of times, each time taking a harder line with respect to
the approach, the sentences or the treatment of young people in
conflict with the law, but never moving closer to what we were
doing in Quebec.
1105
The act has been amended several times since 1993 and on each
occasion Quebec told the House of Commons and the committees “Be
careful; you are going much too far to the right. You are
getting much too close to the adult justice system”. Since 1993,
this House and the Liberal government have always turned a deaf
ear to Quebec's claims, particularly as regards this issue.
Quebec's representations were based on a very serious study. I
am taking this opportunity to salute youth court justice Michel
Jasmin, who is Quebec's co-ordinating judge and who does a
remarkable job.
From 1990 to 1992, I am mentioning these dates from memory,
because I have nothing in front of me regarding them, a number of
other experts, including Normand Bastien, members of the Bar and
Cécile Toutant, who also sat on that committee, reviewed the
whole issue of young offenders in Quebec, from the time of their
arrest until they left the youth centre or were done with their
treatment.
These experts found that the Young Offenders Act, which was
implemented properly at the time, could be applied even better
by getting all the stakeholders involved, including the police
officers making the arrest, before the
court appearance, the experts and psychologists at trial and all
the experts involved when the young offender was in custody,
should this be the case.
The Jasmin report is now the authoritative reference with
respect to youth justice. Already back then, it warned the
federal government, which wanted to toughen its approach with
young offenders.
The conclusion of that important report is very simple. The
problem is not the Young Offenders Act, but its implementation.
Although the results were good at the time, these people
wondered about our own—
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): I am sorry to interrupt the
hon. member but the member for Calgary West has the floor on a
point of order.
* * *
[English]
POINTS OF ORDER
TABLING OF DOCUMENTS
Mr. Rob Anders (Calgary West, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The government House leader
recently tried to move a motion to table a document. He claimed
that he did not need unanimous consent of the House of Commons to
do that.
I am raising a question with regard to the actions taken by the
government House leader and to what he claims. I am reading from
House of Commons Procedure and Practice with regard to the
daily program, chapter 10, page 371, where it reads:
A Minister or Parliamentary Secretary acting on behalf of the
Minister may table documents in the House during Routine
Proceedings when the rubric “Tabling of Documents” is called.
This method of tabling is often referred to as “front door”
tabling.
In my understanding of the rules, since the government House
leader did not present his motion and his document during routine
proceedings he does not have the ability to go ahead and table
the document without unanimous consent of the House.
I am calling the government House leader on this matter of
procedure.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): The Chair has heard the
point of order. By experience it seems unusual, but I will take
the point of order under advisement and report back to the House
as soon as possible.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[Translation]
YOUTH CRIMINAL JUSTICE ACT
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-7, an
act in respect of criminal justice for young persons and to
amend and repeal other acts, be read the third time and passed.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I
must thank my colleague from the Canadian Alliance for all his
respect toward his colleagues who are speaking today.
I want to assure the hon. member of the Canadian Alliance that
when I am here and his party members are speaking, I shall make
an effort to intervene as often as possible in order to disturb
them.
We can see just how seriously the Canadian Alliance members take
this matter. It is all very well to laugh, but the young
offender issue is an extremely important one. The Canadian
Alliance is treating it lightly, and I find that totally
disgusting.
1110
I was giving a historical overview and saying that, in the
history of the application of the Young Offenders Act, we in
Quebec have examined the legislation on a number of occasions in
order to see whether it could be better enforced.
In the early 1990s we had the Jasmin report, which indicated
that the fault was not with the law but with its application.
That is the conclusion we in Quebec reached with respect to the
system, Quebec's approach, although we were enforcing the law
properly. This conclusion applies to 100% of the western
provinces. If the Canadian Alliance can grasp this, it is not
the law that is faulty, but its application.
The provinces calling for changes are those not properly
applying the Young Offenders Act. Throughout the whole history
of the Young Offenders Act, in Quebec, we were not inactive; if
we reached these conclusions, it is because we were aware of
what was going on elsewhere. We concluded that we had to be
careful, because the young offenders system was not fail-safe since
it was a statute, not to upset the
balance we had struck in Quebec in the application of the Young
Offenders Act.
At the start of my mandate in 1993-94 with the Standing
Committee on Justice and Human Rights, we toured the main
provinces to look at the issue of young offenders.
It was very distressing to see how some provinces treated young
offenders, especially those who had committed serious crimes.
They were simply sent to a separate wing in an adult prison
untreated. The young person lying in bed spent the day reading.
When asked what he was doing, he told us he was doing time.
In Quebec young persons do not do time, they work on who they
are. They do not spend the entire day reading. Young people
incarcerated for a long time, even for a short time, are under
the care of psychoeducators, specialists, academics and
criminologists in an effort to discover why they do certain
things. The aim is to find the right treatment for the
individual young person.
Quebec's objective, which should be everyone's objective in
properly applying the Young Offenders Act, is to try to find the
appropriate measure to ensure that the young person becomes an
ordinary citizen as quickly as possible.
I do not want pity for the young people who have committed a
murder or done something else that is repulsive. In a civilized
society like ours there should be no such crime. We should not
even have 14 and 15 year olds thinking about killing someone.
Children aged 10 and 11 have committed suicide. Society is
changing. We have become a consumer society. All sorts of
actions result in some people needing help. The way the Young
Offenders Act has been applied since the beginning shows that we
can intervene adequately and that we can find the right measure at
the right time.
I sincerely believe the provinces, or rather the Minister
of Justice, did not understand this approach.
From the outset, we can deal with the young person, whether he
is guilty or not of the offence or crime with which he has been
charged. Under the existing Young Offenders Act, we can take
action, deal with that young person and follow him at every
stage of the process, including his trial. This is something
that be difficult to do under the proposed bill. I will get
back to this when I talk about the major differences
between the two pieces of legislation.
1115
During those years, Quebec developed what is now known as the
Quebec approach. I realize we cannot ask western Canada to
adopt an approach similar to that of Quebec overnight.
If these provinces do not have the infrastructures to look
after these young people, if they do not have the experts and
the financial means to suddenly apply Quebec's approach, which
is based on 20 years of experience, I can understand that.
However what I do not understand is why they are asking for an act
to prevent Quebec from continuing to use an approach that gives
good results. I find it hard to understand that way of thinking,
both on the part of western Canada and of this government.
Earlier, I listened carefully to the Canadian Alliance member,
who has followed the bill's progress closely, and I would not
wish what he has been through on anyone. However, should we
build an entire system on one case? Should we rebuild an
unproven system, whose results are cause for concern in the
opinion of all the specialists, on the strength of the worst
case scenario?
I listened to western Canadians, crown attorneys and
provincial representatives, who told us that the
end results were far from guaranteed, that the bill was much too
complex and that implementing it would cost far too much.
We may therefore well wonder whether these provinces, which are
calling for amendments, will implement the new legislation they
have obtained back home in a manner consistent with what the
Minister of Justice has in mind.
Quebec's entire system is
being jeopardized for people who will not deal adequately with
young people in conflict with the law anyway, because it is not
part of their tradition or their longstanding treatment of young
people in conflict with the law. That is a big concern.
From the outset, I noticed that Quebecers agreed with
Quebec's approach and that there was consensus. Since 1996-97,
the federal government has tried on more than one occasion to
amend the Young Offenders Act.
I am sure that Bloc Quebecois members who were here in 1993
remember the government's first attempt to amend the act with
Bill C-68. Because of the Bloc Quebecois' opposition, the issues
raised by this bill and the work we did, we pushed the
government to the limit and, finally—
[English]
Mr. Rob Anders: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I wonder whether or not there is quorum in the House.
And the count having been taken:
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): Obviously there is no
quorum. Let the bells ring for 15 minutes maximum.
And the bells having rung:
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): Since we now have quorum,
resuming debate.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Mr. Speaker, seeing the behaviour of the
Canadian Alliance members, I see they have a great future in
this parliament. I am sure they are very pleased with
themselves. I understand their attitude toward a bill that is
terribly harmful to Quebec. I understand their desire to fool
around as they are doing in this House.
Mr. Odina Desrochers: A cowboy approach.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Yes, as my colleague says, a cowboy
approach that is very typical of them.
1120
To continue, this examination showed us that there was consensus
in Quebec. Having toured Canada and certain parts of Quebec,
the committee readily realized that there were two ways of
applying the Young Offenders Act, one in Quebec and one in
English Canada.
The good legislators and responsible people that we are, I
believe we need to look at outcomes. The results indicate that
the province which applies the Young Offenders Act properly that
being Quebec, has a lower crime rate than the rest of Canada and
a recidivism rate for serious crime that is virtually
non-existent or at least the lowest in Canada.
Looking at the judiciarization of cases, Quebec is the province
that puts the fewest young offenders through the court system.
We have the lowest incarceration rate for this age group in
Canada.
Looking at the other provinces, we see that, although the crime
rate has also been decreasing in other provinces, youth crime
has not followed suit. We see that these provinces make heavy
use of the court system and of incarceration. We see that youth
are not receiving treatment. Consequently, these provinces get
the results they deserve.
According to me and all the Bloc Quebecois, an opinion on which
there is unanimity in Quebec, if a change needs to be made
anywhere, it is not in Quebec but in western Canada, in the
maritime provinces, in—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): The hon. member for
Berthier—Montcalm may resume the debate.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Mr. Speaker, I was about to use a few
choice words that are popular in Quebec. However, I will carry
on. I will take a deep breath, because it is very difficult to
concentrate when we are constantly being interrupted. I will now
deal with the core of this issue.
We realized very quickly that there was a consensus in Quebec.
Even though I had already toured Quebec, even though I had
already met people from English Canada, following the
refusal of the Minister of Justice to hear witnesses from Quebec
on Bill C-7 which is a response to Quebec, I decided to do another tour
of Quebec.
I was accompanied, as everyone knows, by Marc Beaupré, the actor
who played Kevin in a televised series. His life and
professional experiences differ from mine, but he delivered an
excellent message and did a very good job. I am taking this
opportunity today to thank him for depoliticizing the whole
debate.
He comes from Lanaudière and has not only depoliticised the
whole debate, but has raised perceptions in Quebec. I think he
has improved perceptions there of our treatment of young
offenders.
On top of that, I went to hear these witnesses, people the
minister refused to hear. I met them on site: at youth
court, in centres for young people, in rehabilitation centres,
in group homes for young people and in social groups.
The minister would have done well to listen to them,
because their message was clear.
They do not want, for all sorts of reasons, to have Bill C-7,
which will be passed here in the House in a few hours perhaps,
applied in Quebec.
What they want is to continue to apply the Young Offenders Act
as it stands and to try to apply it better, if that is possible.
1125
I was surprised to learn that it could cost an additional
$200 million to $250 million a year to implement Bill C-7, the bill
no one in Canada wants, except perhaps the Alliance. Over five
years, the federal government will invest and
pour $1 billion into this system of criminal justice for young persons.
If the Liberal government opposite has
$1 billion for young people it does not know what to do with,
instead of paying for the luxury of new legislation, it should
take the money and give it to the provinces, as they are asking
it to do.
In committee, representatives from five Canadian provinces came
to tell us that, if asked to choose between a complex,
incomprehensible and unenforceable piece of legislation such as
Bill C-7 and cash, to use their term, they would prefer the cash.
Why? In order to pattern themselves as closely as possible on
the Quebec approach, which is based on rehabilitation, stepping
in at the right time and treating youth fairly, which produces
concrete results, results we have all seen. Department of
Justice statistics document these results. Given a choice
between new legislation and cash, they want the cash.
I am certain that if we invested $1 billion on improving
enforcement of the Young Offenders Act, the results would point
more in the direction of continuing with that legislation. Very
good results would also be obtained in the other Canadian
provinces, as they are in Quebec. What is needed for the
legislation to be enforced properly is money, not new
legislation.
The problem lies in the perception of the Young Offenders Act,
not in the act itself.
The federal government puts out publicity on almost anything
going: Canadian defence, Canada Post, the protection of small
birds, fish, just name it. Why?
Why does the federal government not publicize the real costs of
properly enforcing the Young Offenders Act? There has been
success in some cases, and in many cases in Quebec. I have
personally met people who, at the age of 15 or 16, committed a
murder. Today, they are anonymous members of the public. For
all sorts of reasons to do with families, gangs or drugs, they
committed a reprehensible act, but at least we saved them and
they are now anonymous citizens.
What good will the minister's wonderful legislation do, if a 14
or 15 year old youth gets a life sentence? As we know, under the
current system, that youth would serve 25 years. In 25 years
from now, that 15 year old youth will be 40. He will still be in
the prime of life, but he will have spent half of his life in a
school for crime, an adult prison. What will he do?
In adult prisons, there is no treatment such as the one provided
to young people in youth centres. He will serve his time, as
they say in the penitentiary jargon. What good will it do to
society that that youth get out at 40? The protection of society
might be ensured for 25 years, but that is pushing the problem
forward.
Today, under the Young Offenders Act, that youth may be
sentenced to six years of detention at worst, but those are six
years of firm treatment, six years with specialists, because
there are several working on any given case. Afterwards, he will
be monitored over a 10 year period, until they are sure he has
been rehabilitated or is on his way to be so. During 16 years,
that youth will be monitored.
Eventually, he might end up paying taxes like us. He
might have children. He might get integrated in the society in
which he lives. He will not be branded as some would like him to
be, with his name published, his picture in the papers and a
life sentence for a 14 or 15 year old youth.
1130
I can already hear people say “But this would make it possible
for a province to prevent 14 and 15 year olds from getting an
adult sentence”. This is true, but do members realize that a
young person will still have to stand trial in an adult court,
with adult rules?
It is only after the trial, whether he is found guilty or not,
that the order comes into play. Despite the order, the crown
prosecutor might still ask, for all kinds of reasons, that this
young person be given an adult sentence. There would be a trial,
with a very complex series of judicial measures before that,
such as the adult court.
Would this be a service to both the population and the 14 year
old to have him tried as an adult, to treat him as an adult?
Would we solve his situation or his case? Would society feel
more secure if this young person were tried as an adult? There
are all kinds of legal fictions in this bill. Government
frontbenchers say, one by one, that a youth justice court judge
will hear these cases, that they will no longer be referred to
an adult court.
This is true verbally, but when we take a look at clause 3 of
the bill, we realize this is not the case. The government thinks
we have not read the bill. To say this demonstrates a lack of
intellectual rigour, because this is not the case.
The bill does provide that a youth justice court judge will be
responsible, but in fact it will be a superior court judge who,
for such trial, will be deemed to be a youth justice court
judge. I know very well that in several judicial divisions of
Quebec and Canada, youth courts do not have the necessary
facilities to hold trials by judge and jury.
Everything is provided for in the bill. Such cases will be tried
before adult court, but for the purpose of the proceeding, this
court will be “deemed to be a youth justice court”, and the
judge will be “deemed to be a youth justice court judge”. This
is going very far. It is tantamount to being tried before adult
court. Furthermore, the age limit will be lowered from 16 to 14.
A young person aged 14 could be tried as an adult.
People across the way tell us that the bill does not affect
Quebec's approach. On what planet do they live? During my 12
to 14 day tour, among the many people I met, there was not one
who supported the bill. Everybody wishes to keep the Young
Offenders Act.
An hon. member: Not even the natives.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: As my colleague said, I even heard
aboriginal people, the sons
of the federal government, state in a press conference that Bill
C-7 will never be applied on their territory.
We will continue, even though the federal government passes its
bill, to apply the Young Offenders Act on our territory. They
even said that this act did not necessarily reflect their
cultural values, but that it included everything they could
use to get closer to these values and that they were getting good
results. Even aboriginal people, and they can certainly not be
accused of being separatists, are opposed to the government's
bill. I challenge the members opposite: no one in Quebec
supports Bill C-7.
Yesterday, the Minister of Justice misquoted the letter from the
Quebec bar association. It is not true that the Quebec bar
association supports Bill C-7. Just contact them through Carole
Brosseau, to whom I spoke personally. This is misinformation.
To get a letter from the bar association, the government even
said that the Bloc Quebecois had moved amendments to Bill C-7 in
committee, but that is not true. The Bloc Quebecois never moved
an amendment in committee.
1135
The Bloc Quebecois will never seek to have an act that is so
flawed, ill-conceived and dangerous for Quebec amended. We did
not do so in committee and we did not do so at report stage. We
simply did not. It is being intellectually dishonest to tell the
Quebec bar association, in order to get a letter from them, that the
Bloc Quebecois moved an amendment on the speediness of the
proceedings and that we were satisfied. This was not true. No
member of the Bloc Quebecois was satisfied with that. Contrary to
what the minister said yesterday in the House, the Quebec bar
association does not support the bill. No one in Quebec supports
this bill.
I am convinced that some government members have friends in the
national assembly. Jean Charest, the saviour of the Liberals
opposite, does not support the federal approach. Liberal, PQ and
ADQ members unanimously condemn Bill C-7. Does this not mean
anything to government members? Do they not realize that they
making a mistake?
They always think that they, the government, know best, that they
are right and that everybody else is wrong: all the experts,
youth court judges, reporters, lawyers, crown prosecutors and
criminal lawyers whom I have met and who have expressed their
views on this, all those who are working under the Young
Offenders Act, and the unanimous position of Quebecers. Can they
all be wrong?
It would be so easy to make things right, and it is still not
too late.
The government should wake up, realize that it is mistaken, that
members are mistaken. It is still not too late, before third
reading, to refer the bill to committee in order to include an
amendment that would allow those provinces that so desire to
take a more repressive approach and to let Quebec keep its
approach, which has required a good deal of work and hundreds of
thousands of dollars to develop over the years—
[English]
Mr. Rob Anders: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
Is there quorum in the House?
And the count having been taken:
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): There is no quorum. Let
the bells ring for a maximum of 15 minutes.
And the bells having rung:
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): Quorum has been
re-established.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Mr. Speaker, I will use the four minutes
I have left, despite the fact that I find deplorable what is
happening here. Frankly, when I toured Quebec I always said that
my tour was more of a social than political initiative. It was
an information tour. I did not want to turn the matter into a
political issue.
I understand that the member of the Canadian Alliance may feel
some resentment or whatever. However, since we are dealing with
an issue as important as youth, and an approach that has proven
effective in Quebec, the hon. member could put aside the
partisanship and arrogance he has shown all morning and deal
more seriously with the bill.
I repeat what I have already said “It is not too late for the
government. It is not too late”. Yesterday, I offered
to go on another tour of Quebec with the minister, on a
non-partisan basis and with all the necessary interpreters and
personnel, and meet with the people I met and others also,
because I am ready was anywhere. I am sure of what I am
saying. Quebecers are unanimously saying that the federal
government is on the wrong tack.
The minister refused to meet with these people.
She refuses to listen to them, to go to meet them, as if she
were living in a glass bubble in Ottawa, briefed only by her
officials who have drafted legislation in their ivory tour, the
kind of unenforceable and complex legislation that they alone
can draft. The minister refuses to acknowledge that kind of
reality.
Maybe she cannot spare the time to go on a tour of Quebec.
1140
That is why I am saying that it is not too late to send Bill C-7
back to the committee where it could be further reviewed,
allowing Quebec and other provinces wishing to continue using an
approach based on rehabilitation and reintegration rather than
repression to do so.
I moved an amendment that was rejected yesterday. It was a legal
and constitutional amendment examined by specialists. However the
government is not listening.
It wants, at all costs, to pass legislation based on the
seriousness of the offence and that consideration will influence
the whole process while the existing Young Offenders Act is
based on the needs of young offenders.
By correctly enforcing the Young Offenders Act, we could
individualize the treatment needed by each youth to become an
honest citizen.
The Supreme Court of Canada took at least 15 years to interpret
the act concerning the needs of young offenders and to say what
it really means. How many years will it take it to interpret
what the legislator meant when he said that the seriousness of
the offence must take precedence over the sentence, the
treatment and the process? How long will it take the Supreme
Court of Canada to determine the issue of the day to day
application of the act? There is a series of automatic processes.
Today, with the bill the government wants to impose on Quebec,
judges will use a grid to assess a case and simply put a
checkmark depending on the severity of the offence, without
being able to take the kind of action they would like to take.
That is the difference between the two.
During my tour I met Quebecers who dealt with victims of
crimes, including
people from CAVAC. They shared the same opinion as everyone else.
They were against the approach chosen by the Minister of Justice
in Bill C-7. I would have like the minister to have heard that.
I also met fathers and mothers who told me that I was not making
the point clearly enough that the Young Offenders Act gave them
the tools they needed to help their children get back on the
right track.
Youth crime does not affect only those families where children
are neglected by the parents. If there is one thing that is true
about youth crime, it is the fact that it affects families
indiscriminately, whether the parents' wallets are full or
empty. Youth crime can affect rich families as well as poor and
needy families.
People asked me to stress the fact that the Young Offenders Act
gave them the tools they needed, which they will no longer have
once Bill C-7 has been passed. Everything will be based on
mechanisms. Certain decisions that parents can make now will be
left to the system. This bill will take all responsibility away
from the parents.
It will destroy the balance reached in Quebec over a period of
more than 20 years between the needs of the young offender, his
or her accountability, society's intervention and the measure.
Over the years, a balance has been reached, and everyone agrees
that this bill will hurt that balance. I urge, and this will
conclude my speech, both the Prime Minister, who is from Quebec,
and the Minister of Justice, who is responsible for the bill,
not to go ahead with this piece of legislation. I urge them to
send this bill back to committee to allow us to work on it some
more so we can find a compromise for all the provinces, but most
of all so Quebec can continue to use its approach, which has
been proven effective.
Mr. Odina Desrochers: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
Considering the many unjustified interruptions we had and the
importance of the issue debated today, I seek unanimous consent
of the House to extend by ten minutes the time allocated to my
colleague, so he can address this issue more thoroughly.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): Is there unanimous consent of
the House?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
* * *
1145
[English]
POINTS OF ORDER
TABLING OF DOCUMENTS—SPEAKER'S RULING
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): A while ago the hon.
member for Calgary West raised a point of order concerning the
tabling of a document by the government House leader after
consent had been refused to do so in the House.
Our rules provide two manners of tabling of documents by
ministers. The first is called front door tabling and is done in
the Chamber during routine proceedings. The second is called
back door tabling, and a minister may table documents required by
statute or by an order of the House with the clerk. I refer
members to House of Commons Procedure and Practice, pages
371 and 372.
In this case the minister attempted to table the document by the
front door by unanimous consent because the time provided for
tabling had passed. He did not obtain consent. The minister
still had the opportunity to table by the back door and used that
method instead. In this case there was no need for the minister
to rise in the House to table his document. He simply could give
the document to the table officers by back door tabling.
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker,
I rise on a point of order. I have a question, just for
clarification. Could you tell me which section of our standing
orders was applied?
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): It is Standing Order
32(1).
Mr. Rob Anders (Calgary West, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I believe that when the
government House leader stood he was doing two things if I
understand it correctly. My understanding is that he was, first,
putting forward a motion and, second, tabling a document.
When he stood after I challenged him, saying that he did not
have unanimous consent of the House, he then said that he did not
need unanimous consent of the House.
The question with your ruling, Mr. Speaker, is whether or not
you are saying that the government House leader does not need
unanimous consent, hence my consent, to be able to go ahead and
table documents. Does that also apply with regard to his motion?
Where does it stand with regard to his motion?
Based on some discussions with the clerks and my general
understanding of the rules, since the minister did not do this
with a front door mechanism during routine proceedings he was to
do it by the back door. My understanding is that when he does
these types of things via the back door, like he did in the last
session of parliament with regard to the MP pension plan, he
requires unanimous consent of the House to do so. He asked for
it and was deprived of it.
Therefore, my understanding of the rules and what I was led to
believe half an hour ago was that he did not have the ability to
do it via the back door without unanimous consent. Since he did
not have unanimous consent, I have some serious questions about
this.
I wonder whether or not there is a splitting of hairs with
regard to the idea of tabling documents versus the motion that
the minister was putting forward. I am somewhat at a loss
because I think I am doing as much as I can possibly do to try to
raise the issues with regard to procedure and House affairs here.
I am very frustrated.
Basically my feeling is that the government minister is fast
tracking the MP compensation package in a way that no other bill
has been fast tracked in this place. I am trying to do my best
so that he lives up to the rules that even he tried to somehow
live up to last time with the MP pension changes in the last
session. I am very frustrated by this.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): As I said in my ruling,
there are two ways to table documents, from what we have analyzed
here today, the first one being during routine proceedings where
anyone can table a document without unanimous consent.
In the case at hand routine proceedings were finished, as we
know, and the minister stood to table his document again, asking
for unanimous consent to revert to routine proceedings, which was
denied. He could not go back to routine proceedings to table his
document. That solves the first problem.
The second way of doing it is by back door tabling, as it is
called in the rules of procedure. Any minister, and only a
minister, can come to the table and deposit his or her document.
That also settles the problem.
1150
However, in this case the minister chose to stand in the House
and say that he did not need unanimous consent to table the
document and that he would do it just the same. If the Chair can
express itself, it may not be the ideal way of doing it, but it
was done and according to the rules that we have all adopted it
is legal.
Mr. Rob Anders: Mr. Speaker, I still have questions with
regard to the difference between the tabling of documents and the
motion put by the minister.
Does the tabling of documents by the government House leader or
the minister allow him also, therefore, with regard to this issue
of MP compensation, to group the three readings of a said bill in
that tabling of documents? Does it allow him to group votes?
Does it allow him to go ahead and allow something to pass on
division without votes by members of the House of Commons? Does
it fast track committee of the whole so that it happens here in
the House rather than in various committees such as, for example,
the committee on procedure and House affairs?
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): Again to the member for
Calgary West, the minister stood and asked for unanimous consent,
which was denied. That is very simple. He then used the second
method of tabling his document and that is in the rules of
procedure.
I will put it a different way. He did not even have to stand in
the House and ask for consent. He could have simply walked to
the table and given the document to the clerks, who would in turn
make sure that it was distributed. Does that help the hon.
member understand the situation?
There are two ways of doing it: by the front door during
routine proceedings and by the back door by simply tabling the
document with the clerks. It is as simple as that.
Mr. Rob Anders: Mr. Speaker, I will try to simplify my
question. In regard to the actions of the government House
leader, if he does not require unanimous consent, and you have
made that ruling, does the action that he took in the House this
morning allow him to put forward the MP compensation package
without needing to have a vote and a say by the members of the
House of Commons?
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): As a matter of fact, any
minister can deposit any document he or she wishes. We are not
talking about substance here. We are talking about the technical
aspect of the tabling of this specific document. Ministers can
table any document they want. Basically that is what it is.
Mr. Rob Anders: Mr. Speaker, am I to take it by the
actions of the government House leader that this almost in a
sense served as an order in council and that basically the House
has no say or discretion with regard to what he has done? He
tried to get it done in the House but was deprived of unanimous
consent. Is it deemed to have been adopted anyhow?
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): He could not table it
during routine proceedings at the very beginning of the day. He
tried to go back to routine proceedings by unanimous consent,
which was denied, so he did it through the back door and simply
tabled the document with the clerks. That is in the rules of
procedure. What else can I say?
Mr. Roy Cullen: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
This is the House of Commons, not a seminar in procedure. The
Speaker has made—
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): That is not a point of
order.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
YOUTH CRIMINAL JUSTICE ACT
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-7, an
act in respect of criminal justice for young persons and to amend
and repeal other acts, be read the third time and passed.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, it is with some regret that I rise to take part in
the debate on Bill C-7. It has a lengthy history. As the Chair
and members of parliament know, it has been before the House in
various incarnations since 1993. In effect, Bill C-7 is an aptly
named bill because it is seven years old.
1155
It has had numerous changes. It has been put through
committee. It has been examined and it has been adjudicated
upon, to a degree, in the sense that we have had numerous judges,
lawyers and prosecutors and those who work in the justice system
look at it intensely.
It saddens me to say we have a bill before us that is in a very
flawed and very troubled state. It is a bill that may be
arguably the most important piece of legislation we will see in a
decade. It is a bill that has long term, broad implications,
because it deals with what is, I would certainly say, perhaps our
most valuable commodity. I do not mean to diminish our youth by
calling them a commodity, but the bill deals directly with young
people in Canada. The bill deals with their future. It deals
with the way in which they are dealt with by the criminal justice
system.
One of the supposed assets of this type of legislation is its
flexibility. The legislation was supposed to allow provinces to
be flexible in the way in which they approached youth justice.
They were supposed to be able to hold conferences. They were
supposed to be more inclusive of victims, of social workers and
of accused persons in the way in which they interact, in the way
in which the justice system was to envelop them and hopefully
improve and thus produce a better life.
Yet when one delves into the details, and the devil is in the
details in this type of legislation, one finds, sorrowfully, that
this legislation will have the complete opposite effect of what
it is intended to do.
The philosophy and the emphasis in this legislation is very much
on rehabilitation, on reintegration and on early intervention and
prevention. To that end I very much agree with those sentiments.
I agree with the direction in which the legislation is attempting
to take us in terms of our criminal justice system.
Yet again it falls far short. The legislation will not achieve
these noble objectives. It will not allow our young people to
avail themselves of all of these noble ambitions, because it is a
bill in which the Minister of Justice and her department have
very much tried to please everyone. They have gone so far afield
in trying to bring everything together in this one massive,
complex, convoluted bill that none of these objectives will be
achieved.
Therefore I stand here with great consternation, because the
bill is one which we very much want and need in the country. Yet,
as the Progressive Conservative justice critic representing my
party in this process, I do not feel that I can in good
conscience support the bill. I do not feel that the bill will
achieve all those things that need to be achieved in our justice
system today.
For example, the bill would give unspecified regions power to
customize sentences and trends according to area standards,
whatever that means. The bill would allow judges, who complained
that the first version of this bill was too complicated and upon
seeing it a second time were even more confused as to what the
bill actually intended, various sentencing alternatives, which
might vary by province, by city and by individual judge or court.
For example, paragraph 38(2)(b) states that sentences must be
similar to the sentences imposed in other regions “on similar
young persons found guilty of the same offence committed in
similar circumstances”.
Again, is this effective? Is this the type of language that
leads to any real sense of clarity in terms of what is intended?
The bill has left judges with much experience, with years and
years of work in the justice system, scratching their heads as to
how they would implement this type of legislation.
One of the greatest assets of any justice system is the ability
to be timely, the ability to have justice done swiftly and to
have it be seen to be done swiftly, as the old legal maxim goes.
The legislation would make that virtually impossible because of
this complexity and the new and convoluted route that cases would
have to navigate. In regard to timely hearings, timely trials, a
person having access to justice will surely find that it will
take months, if not years to reach the end, to reach the
conclusion of that process.
1200
I know, Madam Speaker, that you have a history with the justice
committee and have taken a great interest in the process as well.
We are left feeling very shortchanged by the bill. After having
heard from so many with so much expertise, understanding and
history as to how the system works, we are left with a virtual
nightmare in terms of the legislation.
It does not get to the point. It does not accomplish the goals
that we should be striving to achieve. Justice delayed will be
justice denied. That phrase will encompass and be stamped
indelibly on the bill when it comes to fruition, if the
government does not pull back at the last moment, which is
unlikely.
For example, if young people were to find themselves charged
with first degree murder in my home town of New Glasgow, Nova
Scotia, and were taken through the process, would they receive
the same treatment, the same end result as they would in
Vancouver?
That is a test that should be met. The purpose of our federal
justice system is to have balance and parity. The very symbols
of justice must be balanced. My genuine feeling is that it will
not happen. There is a great deal of reason to believe, in
looking at the various clauses in the bill, that a parity of
justice will not exist. There is nothing to mandate that a young
person who commits a deadly crime pays with serious time,
regardless of the province in which it is committed.
There is an amendment, for example, to subclause 42(2)(o) that
three years or less in a penitentiary would be served. In the
mind of the public, a three year sentence coupled with probation,
if it is to follow, does not adequately or proportionately
respond to the gravity of the offence.
However many attempts were made to amend the legislation and
however many sources came forward with innovative and intelligent
suggestions on how to improve the bill, most of those attempts
were rebuffed. There was little time in this round of parliament
to delve into the details of the bill. For all intents and
purposes time allocation or closure was invoked in committee just
as it was in the House.
Again, because of the importance of the bill, members of the
opposition, some members of the government side and perhaps some
members of the committee were left feeling very frustrated
because they were not allowed to call witnesses to go over some
of the very flawed legislation. Some would argue, and I would be
one, that there is so much wrong with the legislation that it is
impossible to improve. It is like trying to polish a rotten
apple; it cannot happen.
Supposedly this process is open to change in order to result in
the best possible bill. Yet that did not happen. It was not
effective. It was not functional. It broke down, perhaps was
because of the personalities involved or perhaps because the
government was not listening. That seems to be very much the
case with not only the bill but with many pieces of legislation
that we see in the House.
There is an attitude of superiority, that members of the
opposition do not quite get it, that somehow they are out for
purely partisan purposes and have a lesser understanding of the
importance of the government's agenda. That is hogwash and
simply not true. Many people in opposition approached the bill in
a very professional, straightforward and common sense way. They
were left feeling as if they got very short shrift. They were
treated with very little respect.
Yesterday I attempted to move an amendment to the bill with
respect to subclause 125(6). I did so at the request of the
Canadian School Boards Association and other associated groups on
behalf of teachers. It was meant to try to improve the
information sharing regarding dangerous youth offenders who may
be in our school system. The amendment would have provided for
the sharing of information so that the provincial director, a
youth worker, an attorney general, a peace officer or a person
engaged in the justice system could share information
mandatorily.
They would have to do so, for the simple reason that information
would be used for a very important purpose. It would protect
other students and help in the rehabilitative efforts of the
young person who is in the school system.
1205
If the bill provides for that in some instances where it says
may, my amendment would have made it mandatory so that it had to
happen. There is a breakdown in the information sharing in the
current system. It was very much in the interest of everyone to
have this information mandatorily shared with our schools.
Others are trusted with the information. There are no privacy
concerns when it comes to police officers, community workers or
the staff involved in the court system. It is almost insulting
to suggest somehow that if we were to give this information to
teachers they would abuse it. One is left wondering why the
government would vote against such a common sense amendment.
Perhaps we will hear some response to that at some point, but I
doubt it.
We have tried time and time again to improve upon the
legislation. I worked with the old Young Offenders Act and there
is no question in my mind that it was not a perfect system
either. Although it was a great motivation in my decision to
come to parliament, I am left with the inescapable conclusion
that the old system will function better or was functioning
better than the system we are about to embark on.
It troubles me greatly to think that simply by being here and
participating in this system I will have to answer to some future
generation as to how parliament could put in place such a
convoluted and complex system, such a monster in terms of the
delay it would wreak on the system. I will have to ponder as to
how I would respond, but at least I will have some solace in
knowing that I tried. I tried to make some changes. I tried to
put forward some suggestions on how to improve the bill.
There is much talk again about the flexibility of holding these
conferences in which the accused, victims and others will be able
to participate in the system. Yet it seems to be left in a cloud
of doubt and a shroud of complexity.
There is a question with respect to new responsibilities of the
police in their actions. They are to engage in a new venture of
counselling wherein they will be required to issue cautions. They
will be required to delve into the young person's life in detail
and to some extent be required to become like social workers. All
the information when gathered, which is another very serious flaw
in the bill, would not be admissible for the purposes of a bail
hearing.
If a young person has been the beneficiary of several warnings
and cautions, if the police are aware that he or she is likely to
embark on more serious crimes such as break and enter, violence
or drug use, and if the person is taken into custody, the police
will not be required to refer to the information they had
gathered through this new system for the purposes of holding or
detaining the young person at a judicial interim release hearing
or a bail hearing.
I brought this information to the attention of the justice
minister and her officials, and yet there is no willingness to
change. The Liberal government has also ignored numerous
community concerns with respect to mandatory increased sentences
for gang violence or swarming. There was no attempt to
essentially up the ante for that type of violent behaviour. There
was no attempt to have recognized in legislation a specific
offence for home invasion when young people were aware or should
have been aware that the person was at home when they entered the
dwelling house.
That would have been the correct message to send if we were to
make the legislation firmer and fairer in order to protect the
public. Our justice system should be about protecting the public
and keeping in mind rehabilitation and reintegration.
At the end of the day there has to be corrective action taken if
young people or otherwise are wreaking havoc in a community.
Sometimes it involves removing them from the community for
lengthy periods of time given the offence that has been
committed. The bill is not sending the signal that violent
offenders and those who commit serious offences will be treated
in a serious and firm but fair way.
1210
I have already mentioned the delay involved in bringing forth
the legislation, but another flaw that ties into my earlier
comments is the lack of language referring to deterrence and
denunciation, deterrence being either general or specific and
denunciation for the crime itself. The bill is completely void
of that type of language. It makes no mention of it, yet it is
used in courtrooms across the country every day. The department
and the minister in their wisdom are loath to use that type of
language in the bill.
We have heard many complaints from numerous individuals across
the country about the way in which the bill has been put
together. I cannot stress enough the complexity of the bill. We
had the Juvenile Delinquents Act which comprised 30 sections.
From there we went to the Young Offenders Act which contained
approximately 70 sections. Then we talked about the need to
streamline and the need to make the legislation more user
friendly so that parents and young people could understand it.
What did the department come up with? It came up with a bill
that has 200 clauses. The legislation will be more than doubled.
Yet the department and the minister have the audacity to say that
it is streamlined legislation. It could not be more the
antithesis of streamlined legislation. It is the complete
opposite. The minister is being very economical with the truth
when she uses that kind of language.
For example, subclause 45(2)is 86 words long in one sentence.
That is the type of complexity we are talking about. It reads
like Chinese arithmetic. It is something that will be extremely
difficult for those working in the justice system to try to
administer.
This leads me to another major flaw or chasm for the provinces.
Due to the new complexity, new processes and new requirements for
the administration of the bill, it will take massive resources to
accomplish this task. The provinces are feeling extremely
frustrated. Many who came before the justice committee stated in
a very straightforward and polite way that they did not have the
resources to accomplish the task given to them by the government.
In many ways that is exactly what is happening. The government
is asking the provinces to administer the bill. Yet it is trying
to micromanage the way in which they would do it. It is telling
them they have these new responsibilities and new hearings to
administer. The provinces will have all sorts of problems in
trying to accomplish this task. Yet the government will not give
them the additional resources they require.
Understandably the provinces are very upset but the government
would not listen. It essentially says that is too bad and that
it will go ahead with it any event. It thanked the provinces for
voicing their concerns but informed them that they would have to
do it. That is not exactly what I would call co-operative
federalism. This is not the type of approach that should be
taken, particularly on a bill as important as this one.
The minister has talked numerous times about a decrease in crime
and how the statistics are plummeting. She should talk to the
police, to case workers and to probation workers. They will tell
her otherwise, particularly when it comes to violent crime. We
know that violent crime is very much on the rise, particularly
among young women. In the last 10 years it has risen over 77% as
far as youth are concerned. Since 1988 it has risen 127% among
young women. These are shocking statistics.
Public concern about lack of accountability for crimes,
particularly those committed by young people, hinges on the fact
that there does not appear to be much in the way of deterrents.
We have new processes of statutory release, presumptive release,
conditional release and conditional sentences. These are some of
the same flawed practices that exist in the adult system. Now
the government is downloading them on to the youth court system
and telling the provinces to do their best. However it will not
be there to help them when it comes to light that it will cost
considerably more and result in more delay.
Frontline police officers are saying the same. They are very
concerned about the new responsibilities. Victim groups are not
satisfied that they will be given enough participation or
recognition in the new system.
1215
The new bill, although it is not new and has been recycled
several times, is one that is fraught with grave financial
implications and grave implications in terms of delay, complexity
and breakdown in the system. The only people perhaps who will be
happy will be the lawyers, particularly the defence lawyers. This
will be the best make work program that the government could
possibly have come up with. What will be accomplished?
Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Madam Speaker, I
listened with great interest to the member for
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough. I know he has a great deal of
background on this issue, having been a crown prosecutor and
having dealt with the very act that Bill C-7 seeks to amend.
I learned quite a bit from his speech. I would like him to
elaborate a little further on one thing he raised. The old
Juvenile Delinquents Act had some 30 odd sections. The Young
Offenders Act had roughly 70 sections. This bill, which
ostensibly seeks to clarify, streamline and make more accessible
the Young Offenders Act, has 200 sections. What is even more
worrisome is the omissions in the bill, which he pointed out.
How can we have a new act that deals with young offenders but
fails to contemplate or mention things like gang activity or home
invasions? The single most frightening thing for senior citizens
today is the possibility that some thug will kick their doors in
and invade their home while they are sitting watching television.
This is a very genuine fear for Canadians. They want some
specific mention of the seriousness of that crime.
Could the hon. member elaborate, not so much on what is
worrisome in the act but on some of the glaring shortcomings or
omissions, which he pointed out.
Mr. Peter MacKay: Madam Speaker, I know he has a real
interest in this issue.
It is difficult for me to answer on behalf of the government as
to why it failed to address these questions he put forward. Why
would the government not take this opportunity to put in place a
system that would leave people, in particular seniors, feeling
that they would be protected in their home? There is no specific
mention of home invasion or the creation of an offence that would
react in a very deterrent and straightforward way on that type of
offence. Nor do we see a genuine attempt to address the issues
of violence or violence using firearms or weapons, which is sadly
another type of offence that is on the rise.
Swarming is another offence that has become commonplace, not
only in big cities, but in rural Canada as well. Groups of youth
maraud, band together, turn upon individuals and beat them into
submission. We saw this happen outside Toronto to a young man by
the name of Jonathan Wamback who was severely beaten within an
inch of his life. His father undertook a very impassioned plea
to the country to try to bring about some change in our justice
system, particularly in this bill. It was completely ignored by
the government.
I am not sure I can give any account as to why the government
did not take the opportunity, which was the most obvious chance
we had, to change the bill. Instead it came forward with this
bill and all the shortcomings, a bill so complex and so
convoluted. It has doubled in size the terms and conditions in
which the legislation will operate.
The government has failed to attack some of the biggest problems
which have existed in the system for the last 10 or 15 years, in
the Young Offenders Act. It completely defies logic. It has
left many, not only those in the legal community but many in the
community who would be most affected, scratching their heads and
wondering why they elected the government in the first place, if
this is the type of legislation they will get as a result.
1220
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Madam
Speaker, I have just a few comments as the end of a long process
winds down, not only in the context of time allocation but also
in the context of a bill that has received a great deal of
attention by this parliament and the previous parliament.
We regret to say that we cannot support Bill C-7 because we all
started from the proposition, with perhaps the exception of the
Bloc Quebecois because the Young Offender's Act seems to be
working in Quebec in a way that it does not seem to be working in
the rest of the country, that the Young Offender's Act did not
live up to expectations. I say that as someone who was here in
1983-84 when we passed the Young Offender's Act. There was a
great sense of progress in that we had finally shed the juvenile
delinquent's act and that a new day in youth criminal justice was
ahead of us. Some 15 years later we do not have that feeling at
all.
We have the feeling that the Young Offender's Act does not work,
that it has many unintended consequences and that it does not have
enough discretion built into it. Too many young people are
being forced into and clogging up the court system. We feel that
that kind of discretion should be available to the system, which
is not available in the Young Offender's Act. So we have before
us the youth criminal justice act.
Unfortunately, we can also say today that, given the
unwillingness of the government to consider many of the
criticisms that have been levelled at the bill, to consider the
need for more resources if this bill is to be implemented
properly, a point that has been made over and over again by
various provincial governments and to consider the complexity of
the bill and the fact that it might actually extend rather than
shorten the distance in time between the offence and
consequences, one has the ominous feeling that 15 years from now,
and some of us may still be here, we will be discussing the
failure of the youth criminal justice act.
That might be something in the nature of this kind of
legislation or it might be something peculiar to this
legislation. It is probably a little bit of both. In the end no
amount of youth criminal justice legislation, whether it is the
Young Offender's Act or the juvenile delinquent's act or the
youth criminal justice act, is going to be enough to solve our
problems.
Our problems are fundamentally social, economic and moral. They
have a lot to do with the kind of values young people are
picking up in the media, on television, from the popular culture
and even from our economic system. We have an economic culture
that more than ever before holds up self-interest as the guiding
light, that everything works well if we all pursue our own
self-interest in an extremely competitive way. The language of
co-operation that we might find in older notions of how we should
relate to each other or that might be found on Sesame Street,
soon evaporates for many youths when they see how the world
unfortunately sometimes really works. We have a much larger task
ahead of us than anything we could accomplish through the youth
criminal justice system.
I want to re-emphasize some of the things we said at second
reading and which have not really been addressed in committee.
We find ourselves in much the same position as we were at second
reading. I already mentioned the fact that the complexity in the
bill was a problem in of itself. However it could also lengthen
the time between the actions and the consequences.
One thing we know, at least it seems so to me, is that there is
a great deal of agreement that for justice to be effective,
particularly with young people, it should be swift. People
should be able to make the connection between what they have done
and what the punishment is or what the consequences are and not
have it so delayed as to be remote in the connection in the young
person's mind.
The question of the changing the reverse onus provisions,
changing the existing situation whereby the state now has to
argue for youth between the ages of 14 and 17 to be brought
before adult court, will change.
What is this going to mean? This will mean a bigger role for
lawyers in the system. This in itself will delay things.
Anything lawyers have something to do with is a source of delay,
sometimes legitimate and sometimes not.
1225
This will further complicate the system, given the fact that
many young people who find themselves in trouble are not always
from families of means. This will mean an increased burden on
legal aid. We are very concerned about the chain reaction
involved. This is all part of a downloading of costs onto the
provinces, legal aid et cetera without the corresponding
resources being devolved to people who will have to deal with the
complexities of this new system.
The province of Manitoba has a concern with this legislation. We
do not want this new act to apply to children under 12. However,
at the same time we need a strategy for dealing with children
under 12. In the inner city of Winnipeg and many other places we
know that children under 12 are being employed by gangs to effect
their criminal intentions. We need a strategy to deal with that
which is effective and at the same time respects the fact that we
do not want children under 12 to be brought, strictly speaking,
within the rubric of the youth criminal justice act.
There are a lot of things that need to be done. This bill does
not do them in terms of resources. It does not do them in terms
of its own stated objectives. For the record, for this reason
and many others which I do not intend to go into at the moment,
the NDP will be voting against the bill at third reading stage.
[Translation]
Mrs. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I wish to inform you that I am sharing my time with the
hon. member for Mississauga West.
We are about to pass an amendment as important as it is needed
in the way Canada deals with youth crime. The rate of youth
incarceration in Canada has now reached a totally unacceptable
level. It is the highest in the western world, even higher than
in the United States.
Some members from Quebec like to praise their province's justice
system, which they say is based on rehabilitation of young
offenders.
According to a pamphlet prepared by the Bloc Quebecois, the
suggested approach calls for rehabilitation therapy in a youth
centre before a young offender commits an even more serious
crime.
The member for Berthier—Montcalm declared that Quebec tends to
personalize the process based on three fundamental principles:
punishing the young person; making him accountable for his
actions; and addressing his psychological and social problems,
all with a view to rehabilitation and reintegration into society
What the hon. member neglects to tell us, however, is that
Quebec tends to make use of committal to custody for young
people guilty of offences that are not particularly serious, I
repeat, as it is very important: young people who have not done
anything particularly serious, more often than any other
jurisdiction except one. This tendency is not affected by
whether the adolescent has no prior convictions or has only one
or two.
Numerous studies and experiments worldwide have shown that what
works best is to get the young offender to assume responsibility
outside the formal system. This type of intervention makes it
possible to react promptly to the adolescent's misbehaviour by
imposing a significant measure, that is one from which he or she
learns something, thus bringing about rehabilitation and
redressing the wrongs caused.
1230
I would like to get back to the hon. member for
Berthier—Montcalm. He engaged in a tour, to which he
referred, during which he described certain scenarios in order to
convince people that Bill C-7 is bad for Quebec.
I will pick up on one of the scenarios to demonstrate the
incongruity of the arguments presented by the hon. member for
Berthier—Montcalm. It is the case of Hugues, which hon. members
may well have seen in the Bloc Quebecois pamphlets so widely
distributed throughout Quebec.
It starts by stating that, under the Young Offenders Act,
Hugues' problem, which is connected to gang membership, would be
revealed immediately upon his arrest and first court appearance.
They go on to say that the crown and the defence attorney will
probably agree on a training and social reintegration program
where he would be kept away from his gang.
They conclude, that is the Bloc Quebecois and the hon. member for
Berthier—Montcalm, that with a six or eight month social
intervention program Hugues seems to have a chance.
Then, in the second scenario, according to the Bloc Quebecois,
Hugues would receive totally different treatment under Bill C-7.
The person who wrote the pamphlet indicates that Hugues would
appear before a court after his offence and temporary detention
would be accepted as a defence strategy. After a trial, Hugues
would be sentenced to eight months detention. He would not have
access to rehabilitation programs because time would be too
short; he would be left to himself. The various intervenors,
specialists, teachers and scholars would become prison guards.
Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Madam Speaker, I think you will find that
we do not have quorum for such an important debate. I would ask
that you please call a quorum count.
And the count having been taken:
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): We now have quorum.
Mrs. Marlene Jennings: Madam Speaker, what is very clear in
Hugues' case, as narrated by the member for Berthier—Montcalm,
is that the comparison between the two pieces of legislation is
based on some unfounded premises which the author is presenting
as absolute rules when in fact everything is hypothetical.
For example, it is hard to believe that the reasons why Hugues
and his lawyer plead guilty and accept the sentence for an
eight-month detention in a youth centre, as is proposed by the
crown, according to the scenario involving the Young Offenders
Act, would disappear simply because another act applies.
Also, it is hard to understand why Hugues would be confined to
temporary detention under Bill C-7 when in fact this new act says
that a young offender can be released from detention in the
custody of someone and requires that the court check if someone
trustworthy can and will take care of the young offender. This
option applies perfectly to Hugues' case, especially if the
purpose of the intervention is to keep him away from his gang.
Finally, it is unthinkable that a teenager could be left to
himself instead of being enrolled in rehabilitation programs. A
good social reintegration requires the implementation of
programs which begin during the custody period and continue
within the community with the support and under the supervision
of a youth social worker.
This is exactly what Bill C-7 provides for by stipulating that
rehabilitation programs assisting young persons to be
reintegrated into the community must kick in as soon as the
offenders are sentenced and held in custody.
It is also important to note that the effectiveness of any
intervention cannot be measured only by the number of days in
custody, but rather by the quality and the relevancy of the
programs designed for young persons and the quick and fair
treatment of young offenders. These are the principles
underlying Bill C-7.
1235
I would now like to deal with the right to opt out.
The Bloc Quebecois is asking the federal government to give
Quebec the right to opt out so it can continue to implement the
current legislation. The federal government has enacted the
current Young Offenders Act and has proposed this bill in
respect of criminal justice for young persons under its powers
pursuant to section 91 of the Constitution Act of 1867.
These two pieces of legislation are codes of procedure and
sentencing for crimes committed by young persons.
The fact that criminal law is nationwide in scope does not
require, and former Justice Dickson said so in 1990 in the
Supreme Court of Canada ruling in R. v S. (S.), that it be
implemented in a uniform way and in all its details in all the
provinces.
The youth criminal justice act provides enough leeway to allow
each provincial government to implement it in a way that meets
its own challenges and particular needs. This leeway will allow
Quebec not only to preserve but also to improve its youth
criminal justice system.
I also wish to remind the opposition that Bill C-7 is the result
of broad consultation of the provinces, territories and people
interested by youth crime. Through this consultation, numerous
flaws were identified in the present system.
The bill is to fix the flaws of the Young Offenders Act, while
building upon its strengths. The main features of this reform
have been approved by the Canadian population as a whole,
including the population of Quebec, as shown by a CROP survey
conducted in June 2000.
The last point I wish to raise is the implementation cost of
this legislation.
I must say that federal support to Quebec, in particular in
terms of preservation and improvement of its youth criminal
justice system, also takes the shape of an increased financial
contribution. As a matter of fact, by 2004-05, basic federal
transfers for youth criminal justice will have increased by 39%
compared to 1998-99.
I hope that these clarifications will allow members of this
House and in particular those of the Bloc to better appreciate
the scope of Bill C-7, and that they will support the bill at
the third reading vote.
Mr. Antoine Dubé (Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, BQ): Madam
Speaker, on the invitation of the member who just spoke, who is
from Quebec and claims that the bill is perfect, I would ask her
if she has taken note of all the support coming from the members
of the coalition.
I would like to know if she has indeed read all the documents of
the coalition, which is against the bill.
I would also like to know if she has read the proposed unanimous
resolution of the Quebec national assembly, which opposed this
bill last week and which is asking that Quebec be allowed to
maintain its rehabilitation program.
I would also like her to try to name organizations, not
individuals, that would be in favour of her position, precisely to
back up her position.
I ask her to name a series of organizations that are in the
justice area, the rehabilitation area or in the area of all
those who are intervening with young offenders.
Moreover, I would like her to name those who agree with the
position she is defending.
1240
Mrs. Marlene Jennings: Madam Speaker, first, I thank the hon.
member for his question. I would like to tell him that I was
elected in the past to sit on the board of Batshaw, which is
responsible for all the youth centres in the English speaking
community of the island of Montreal. I know very well the youth
criminal justice system in Quebec and elsewhere in Canada.
Secondly, I have examined the first bill introduced by the
minister. I did not support it, because it was too complicated
and it penalized the young. I also thought that if it was not
possible to make improvements through that bill, it was better
to simply correct the shortcomings in the Young Offenders Act,
which does have some shortcomings.
However the minister heeded the representations of the justice
committee and more particularly the recommendations of the
Quebec Bar Association. My colleague opposite will probably
agree that the Quebec Bar Association knows what it is talking
about.
In its presentation, this association made comprehensive
recommendations to improve the bill. The minister listened, and
she incorporated all or most of these recommendations. That is
the first point.
Second, I have been asked if I had any knowledge of the
position of the coalition, for example. Yes I do, and I find it
rather unfortunate that that position is in fact a position on
an earlier version of the bill. The coalition does not seem to
be aware of the major changes the minister made to her bill. I
would like to give an example.
Under the Young Offenders Act, 14 year-olds may be given adult
sentences for certain criminal offences. However when we listen to
some of the people who are opposed to Bill C-7, we hear them say
how terrible it is that 14-year-olds may receive adult sentences
under Bill C-7. The possibility already exists.
I wonder sometimes if people are trying to mislead Canadians
when they do not give the facts, when they do not interpret
correctly the present legislation that has been in effect in
Canada for 16 years and when they do not give all the
information.
Also, under the Young Offenders Act, teens can be transferred to
adult court for certain criminal offences. That is terrible. Not
one single expert working with young offenders is in favour of
that. However, Bill C-7 corrects this flaw in the Young Offenders
Act.
Now, the youth court will have exclusive jurisdiction to hear
cases involving young offenders prosecuted under the youth
criminal justice bill, including—
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): Order, please. I
will just remind hon. members that the hon. member split her
time, so therefore she only had five minutes of questions and
comments.
[Translation]
I would ask members on both sides of the House to show the same
respect. When someone replies, we all want to hear what he or
she has to say. The question is good, but we must be able to
hear the reply also.
[English]
Mr. Steve Mahoney (Mississauga West, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I know it has been a while. I am delighted to see that
I have been missed. I have been busy on committee and dealing
with other issues.
I do not know if there is an issue that is more of a watershed,
that is more of a defining matter of philosophy versus pragmatism
than the changes being made to deal with youth criminals in the
youth criminal justice system.
We have heard the debates from friends opposite, and maybe not so
friends opposite. They have talked about some of the solutions
that are envisioned based on their philosophies and their
experiences.
1245
There are some very fundamental differences between the views of
members on that side of the House and members here. Some members
of the official opposition would simply say that three strikes
and the person is out and we should throw away the key. Then we
have other members of the official opposition who believe that
punishment is the goal, which is what it thinks the bill should
be rooted in. These are two of the extremes. We then have the
other extreme—
Mr. Rob Anders: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I am wondering if there is quorum. I count 18 members.
And the count having been taken:
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): We have quorum.
Mr. Steve Mahoney: Madam Speaker, the member opposite
says that I am right in the middle. Yes, the extreme middle is
generally where members will find us. We in this party believe
in a balance that strives to deal with the root problem of youth
violence. Is it a serious problem? There is no doubt about it.
As I have pointed out, the one position on the right of the
political spectrum is to deal with it with a supposedly firm hand
with boot camps.
Mr. Rob Anders: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I do not see quorum.
And the count having been taken:
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): I see quorum.
Hopefully quorum will remain.
Mr. Steve Mahoney: Madam Speaker, when the opposition
benches empty the moment after the bells stop there will be
difficulty in keeping quorum. I suppose the attempt is to throw
off anyone speaking on this side of the House. However, it will
not work because, fundamentally, we believe in the principles
that are in the bill. If members want to talk about the
difference between punishment, revenge, deterrence,
rehabilitation and long term prevention, then that is what the
bill would achieve.
I will tell members about something I saw this morning on
Canada AM that interested me. A man by the name of Jim
Gollert, who is the CEO of the Centre for Education and Training
in Mississauga, has been appointed by the provincial government.
I am hopeful that what I saw is a positive sign from the province
of Ontario that it wants to deal with long term prevention.
Where do criminals come from? Jim has been asked to deal with
young people expelled from our educational system.
We all know, at least in the province of Ontario, that if young
people are expelled from classes it is a very serious matter. If
they are expelled for violent activities it means they are not
only expelled from their board or school but from the entire
education system in the province. I cannot think of a better
breeding ground for young criminals than having young people
kicked out of school and sent home or out onto the streets with
no opportunity to continue their education.
I want to give credit where I hope credit will be due. The
provincial government has announced not a boot camp, which some
members opposite might prefer, but rather an opportunity for kids
who are in trouble at school or who have been expelled on a
permanent basis from the education system and sent home or out
onto the streets.
1250
The province of Ontario has asked Jim Gollert to head up a
project that would look into ways these young people can continue
their education and be rehabilitated before they wind up before a
judge or in jail. I am hopeful this is a sign from our
provincial government that it will do something about these kids
who are the precursors of the young people who wind up being
charged under whatever act is put in place.
There has never been so much misconception foisted upon people
both in this place and across the land about the purpose of the
Young Offenders Act and its replacement, this new act. The
intention here is to take a young person who has been charged and
who, under the Young Offenders Act, can be put into adult court
prior to any conviction. Does that make any sense? We do not
know. One would think that all of us in this place would live by
the premise that one is innocent until proven guilty.
If a 14 or 15 year old is charged under the current act there
are mechanisms in place that would allow the young person to be
tried in adult court. At that time the offender's name would be
published and it would be open to the discretion of the judge to
impose an adult sentence. Under the new act that would only
occur if a conviction is registered in a youth court system. That
seems makes a lot of sense to me. If young persons are acquitted
or they turn out to be not guilty, why would we want to put them
into the stressful situation of having their lives tarnished
perhaps forever because of a charge that was not proven to be
true? We would not want that.
Under the new bill there would be the ability for the court
system to deal with it in a youth system. It then would have the
ability to impose an adult sentence upon conviction. That seems
very reasonable. I do not hear anyone on the other side telling
people about that or speaking about it in committee or in this
place.
One of the goals must be to rehabilitate. I hear members from
the Bloc chirping and heckling and I would say that is the other
extreme. The other extreme is people who are only concerned,
frankly, about provincial jurisdiction. They do not want any
kind of federal jurisdictional interference in the justice
system.
I do not understand why the Bloc would object to this bill. If
Quebec accepts the new five year youth justice funding agreement
that has been offered, the federal government will contribute
more than $191 million over the period 2000-01 to 2004-05 to
support youth justice services in the province. The increase in
the base funding component of that agreement alone would
represent an increase of 39% when compared to the level of
federal support available to Quebec in the 1998-99 agreement.
Quebec has the opportunity to receive stable funding from the
federal government to support the youth justice system in the
province of Quebec.
What is driving the Bloc members? Is it the overriding dogma
they have about not buying into anything with any kind of federal
direction, federal mandate or, what it would call, federal
interference?
Members might find this hard to believe coming from me, but I
think we should look at the benefit of the youth as opposed to
the partisan interests being espoused opposite. It will not help
young people if the bill is opposed because of partisan purposes
on behalf of people from Quebec or western Canada.
I will tell a story about something that happened in Nova
Scotia. I had an opportunity to work as the advocate for youth
entrepreneurship. We had hearings.
In those hearings young people appeared before us. One of them
was a young woman. When we asked her how she had found out about
the opportunity for youth entrepreneurism, she said that her
parole officer had told her about it. It almost knocked us over.
1255
The province of Nova Scotia has implemented a program called
second chance. Is that not exactly what we should be trying to
do: to provide a second chance when we see young people who have
the opportunity to grow? It helped that young lady start her own
business. She has a young child and she has turned her life
around.
That is what the bill is about. That is what the government
believes in. We will be tough where we need to be, but we must
be fair; we must be balanced; we must focus on rehabilitating
young people to build a better country.
[Translation]
Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière—L'Érable, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I
have just heard the most partisan speech that I have ever heard
since the beginning of this debate. It is a partisan and biased
speech made by an Ontario MP who knows absolutely nothing about
Quebec.
For that matter, everything he says in the House of Commons
shows that this member knows nothing about Quebec, that he knows
nothing about the act and that he is only trying to misinform
the House.
When the only example he can find is a situation that occurred
in Nova Scotia, referring to parole, that makes us wonder what
he is taking about.
We in the Bloc Quebecois know what we are taking about. We know
that Bill C-7 is unjust to Quebec's young offenders, and we do
not want to have imposed on us the vision of the west, which,
unfortunately, is also endorsed by Ontario MPs.
The member must know that it is different in Quebec. As the
present parliament progresses, we are realizing more and more
how different we are from them, and that they do not understand
us.
I would like to know if the member would accept, once and for
all, to go to Quebec to find out what is going on there, find
out what Bill C-7 is about and what its consequences are, and to
understand, once and for all, that we are different from them
and that we want to be on our own.
[English]
Mr. Steve Mahoney: Madam Speaker, I am sorry to hear the
personal attacks. I thought I was being fairly non-partisan in
my debate compared to my normal approach to things. I was trying
to notch it down a bit so that we could deal with some of the
substantive issues.
The member hit it on the head. He said he wants us to admit
that they want to stand alone. We know that is what drives them
every working day, but that is not what the bill is about. The
bill is about young people. Whether they are in the province of
Quebec, Manitoba or British Columbia does not matter.
The effect of the youth justice system should have nothing
whatsoever to do with the partisan desire of that party to
separate from the rest of the country. Its members stand and say
they are different from us and that we must come to Quebec
because we do not know anything about Quebec.
I will tell them what I do know about. I know about young
people. I know about Canada. I know that our young people from
sea to sea to sea need a fair and balanced youth justice system.
That is exactly what the bill will provide, and it will do so in
la belle province.
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): Not to repeat myself, members
asking questions and those giving answers are entitled to the
same respect.
[English]
Mrs. Betty Hinton (Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys,
Canadian Alliance): Madam Speaker, my hon. colleague from
Mississauga West made a few comments in his original speech to
which I take great exception. He said that the philosophy of the
Canadian Alliance was “three strikes and you're out”. He also
made reference to things such as boot camp.
He could not be further from the truth. There is no such thing
as “three strikes and you're out” in our party. We want to see
young people have the best opportunity possible. It is not
negative when we bring to the discussion comments about notifying
school boards and schools that they have a violent offender in
their system. It is positive.
By doing so we are protecting the most important resource Canada
has, our youth, and we are also protecting the young offender. If
we know what triggers the behaviour in a person then we can take
the necessary steps to prevent it from happening again.
1300
I spent my twenties and thirties as a school trustee. I have a
very clear understanding of what happens in schools and of the
need for education. In the latter part of my years I was the
mayor of a community and helped to set up a camp for young
offenders. Education was the most important component of that
camp.
I and my party understand the need for education. We understand
that if we can educate children and stop them from doing what
they are doing before they get a criminal record for the rest of
their lives, then we have made a contribution.
Where does the member get the idea that my party stands for
three strikes and the offender is out? That is not true. I
would be very interested in hearing how the member feels about
that.
Mr. Steve Mahoney: Madam Speaker, the answer is fairly
simple. It was in that party's election platform in the past.
Mr. Ken Epp: It was not. Liar.
Mr. Darrel Stinson: You lie.
Mr. James Moore: Stop lying.
Mr. Steve Mahoney: I have heard members opposite speak
about it in this place. They can try to deny anything they want.
Maybe the member brings a softer, gentler approach to this whole
issue than some of the former members who have been here a little
longer. That would be delightful to see. However, no matter how
the Alliance tries to soften or change its image, Canadians know
what it stands for. Canadians have heard it in this place and
they have read it in the Alliance election materials.
Mr. Darrel Stinson: Now I know for sure that you cannot
read.
Mr. Ken Epp: Why do you not speak the truth?
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): I know this debate is
a very emotional one. Three times I have stated, and I am sure
all colleagues agree, that we must show the same respect for both
the colleague who asks the question and the colleague who answers
the question.
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Canadian Alliance): Madam
Speaker, it must be fate that I would be following the speaker
from Mississauga West. It was not my plan because he usually
follows me but today I will get to have the last word. I will
also be sharing my time with the member for Kelowna.
I want to take a moment to congratulate the member for Surrey
North who has put in unlimited hours regarding the problems we
have with youth crime in Canada. Being a victim himself, having
lost his son to young offenders many years ago, his work in an
organization called Crime, Responsibility & Youth, known as CRY,
and his work with other victims' groups over the years indicate
to me that there is a real dedication on the part of this man to
bring very positive changes to the whole idea of youth crime.
Given all his efforts and the clear message that he has brought
to the House from various victims' groups throughout the land to
do something about youth crime, today unfortunately we have to
report to Canadians that the government has failed dismally to
deal with the situation of youth crime, and it ought to be
ashamed of itself.
In 1984 the Young Offenders Act came into existence. In 1994
the 10 year review began. The results of that review, which I
carry in my briefcase, indicate quite loudly and quite clearly
that under the Liberal government's law regarding young
offenders, violent youth crime has increased from 300% to nearly
400% over that period of time. Some success. I congratulate the
government. This report came out of the government's own 1994
review.
1305
When our party came here in 1993, we were assured by the present
health minister, who was then the justice minister, that there
would be a big review and a big resolution to the youth crime
problem that we were facing and that he would require input from
all the parties in the House.
I happened to be the head of the Reform Party justice committee
at that time. I met with many of my colleagues and we diligently
put together our proposals, which we felt would deal with the
situation. They were mainly based on policies that were decided
by grassroots people across the country who helped us develop
them. We submitted our proposals. I looked at hundreds of
submissions from organizations across the country who were
calling for some serious and significant changes to the Young
Offenders Act in 1994. After nearly a year and a half, the
minister at that time brought forward a proposal that was totally
insignificant with regard to what the people across the country
were asking for.
We have continued to carry on. I believe this is at least the
15th time that I have spoken on the Young Offenders Act since I
came here in 1993. This effort, called the youth justice bill,
is just as my friend from Surrey North called it this morning, a
very feeble and weak attempt to resolve the problems that victims
across the land are facing day in and day out because of youth
crime.
It is totally in the hands of the government across the way to
start listening to Canadians and to start taking their views
seriously with the intention of bringing about a safer society
for our young people in particular who are the majority of the
victims. However, the government refused to do it and it has
failed once again.
Government members will proudly vote tonight, accept what has
been delivered and it will be unacceptable across the land. I
can assure members opposite that one year from now we will be
standing here questioning the government on why it is not doing
something about the youth crime across the land. That is an
assurance that members can almost count on.
I heard comments this afternoon about boot camps and that it was
a shame that anybody would even suggest a boot camp. I have news
for the Liberals: probably millions of people in Canada have
gone through boot camps called the military and it did not hurt
them one bit. In fact most of them are quite proud that they
went through a very disciplined training program that delivered
them to a position where they could serve their country.
I do not know of one Liberal who has the guts to visit the boot
camps and work camps across the country. They should come out to
Alberta to see how our work camp is doing. The camp is having
great success because the young people are learning some
responsibility. They are learning how to work. They are getting
an education. They are learning physical fitness. They are
learning how to treat other people. They are learning about
life. They are not in a prison, they are in a work camp. Is
that not scary? It must frighten that Mississauga West character
right out of his boots that we would do such a thing to youth.
As far as what goes on in the schools, having been in the school
system for 30 years and in administration for 15 of those years,
I can assure the House that I would have loved to have known the
backgrounds of the different students who were being transferred
to my school. Not only could we have provided a service to them
but we could have provided better protection for some of the
youth who suffered at their hands because of our lack of
knowledge.
Let us talk about victims. The last thing the Liberals ever
talk about are the victims. What is happening in our society?
The stories we hear from students when we visit schools are
crazy. I believe all my colleagues in the House have visited a
school and have heard the students say that the government should
get tough with violent young offenders.
Many students live in fear. When I visit schools the majority of
students tell me that they are fearful of the situation they find
themselves in today.
1310
I really question the Bloc members. They say that Quebecers
like the law the way it is. All the e-mails, letters and
contacts I have had with people from Quebec over my years of work
on justice issues have said quite the contrary. The grassroots
and down to earth people do not like the Young Offenders Act. I
would ask Quebecers to write to me and let me know if they are
happy with the act. I would like to know because I do not
believe it is true. Whenever I go to meetings or make any kind
of speeches at town halls involving tax problems or other issues,
at the top of the agenda is the subject of young offenders. They
want to know what we are going to do about youth crime.
I would encourage the government to pay attention to grassroots
people, but I know that is difficult for it to do. I have
received a number of notes and have had a number of conversations
with backbenchers on that side of the House who keep encouraging
me to fight against the bill and to keep doing what I am doing
because they do not like it either. Unfortunately, their hands
are tied and they cannot do anything about it. It is a shame
that when members sit in the government backbenches, they are not
allowed to have a strong voice in what the frontbench brings
forward.
That needs to change. The members' idea on the frontbench is to
bring the bill forward and then put closure on the debate. They
claim to know best and that their little boys and girls behind
them will vote the way they are told whether they like it or not.
Year after year we hear the same old story. Members do not like
what they have but they have no choice because they are ordered
to vote a certain way.
These problems will never go away if we take the approach that
everything we do must benefit the criminal. If we do not start
focusing on the victims and what their safety means to them
instead of the rights of the criminal, we will never get
anywhere. No one believes in prevention more than I do. Our
communities are offering good measures of prevention and I
support and congratulate them for doing so. However the
government has failed to do so for seven years. The reforms are
no different than what we had in 1994.
Mr. Dennis Mills (Toronto—Danforth, Lib.): Madam
Speaker, I have witnessed the member's passion and his
constructive criticism in the House on justice issues for a
number of years. I like many of his ideas, especially the idea
of having camps or discipline centres. I do not like the word
boot camp but I like the notion of having rehabilitation centres
where people could be taught skills, where they could be given a
sense of discipline, a sense of athleticism and all the things
that would make them a whole person.
The member has given 30 years of his life to young people
through the educational system. He talked about the notion of
working on prevention. The area of prevention is an area that
does not get enough discussion time in the House. Could the
member tell us from his experience where he has seen the best
results of preventative measures young people?
Mr. Myron Thompson: Madam Speaker, I could speak about a
number of occasions but I must say to the member that it was very
difficult after the Young Offenders Act came into force. I was a
principal before it came in.
We were notified of their life situations when they arrived at
the school. After 1984 we were not allowed to have that
knowledge, which made it a great deal more difficult.
We were notified of their life situations when they arrived at
the school. After 1984 we were not allowed to have that
knowledge,
which made it a great deal more difficult.
1315
We were able to implement some programs. The one to which I
like to refer the most is about little Eddy who was in grade one.
We brought in a program in our school for students at risk. The
grade one teacher brought Eddy to my office one day and told me
there might be a problem. He had pulled a knife on the teacher
and had been kicking the teacher in the shins.
I think the member would agree that there was a serious problem.
We identified it early and worked with the young person over the
years. We did not throw him out of school. Expelling kids was
the very last resort although we sometimes had to do so for the
safety of others. We worked hard with Eddy. We brought in his
family and managed to get volunteers in the community to provide
big uncle programs. It was something we had free rein to do.
Regulations did not disallow it. We were able to bring in people
who had the ability to work with a young person like him. As we
went through the year he began to excel a little. He left our
community when he was in grade six.
I ran into Eddy in 1995. He was in prison, but he was a guard.
He remembered me from grade six as being his principal. He ran
up to me to tell me how much he appreciated what we did for him
in those earlier years. He said he would have been on the other
side of the bars had it not happened.
I remind the member that unfortunately, as time progressed, as
the charter of rights came in, as human rights factored in and as
the Young Offenders Act came in, we were less and less able to
put hands on programs in place to work with these students
because somebody had the right to deny it. We were not allowed
the freedom we once had to work seriously in preventing these
things from happening.
Why did it get away from us? Police and school administrators
used to work very closely, hand in hand, because usually my
problems during the day were their problems at night. There were
very successful school resource programs. We are starting to get
back to that a little today. Community involvement is starting.
All of that is great.
I could go on for hours about the experiences we have had, some
positive and some not so positive. The difference is that we
were capable of doing something because our hands were not tied
by some right, charter or Young Offenders Act. That really
destroyed our efforts rather than help them.
Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Canadian Alliance): Madam
Speaker, it is an honour for me to participate in this debate.
The first Young Offenders Act was brought forward in 1993, but it
was my privilege and honour in 1993 to present a petition to the
House signed by 6,000 young people. The petition came to me as
the result of a visit by two young girls who were attending Mount
Boucherie Secondary School. They came to me to ask if there was
anything I could do about a problem they had in their school.
They were fearful because they were being harassed and
challenged. They were afraid they would be attacked by a group
of other girls. The problem was that the legislation did not
work. Their teachers and principal could not protect them
because the problem was happening in the community outside the
school.
They asked what they could do. I told them one of the best
things would be to get their friends and other young people to
tell me about the problem. Some 6,000 young people could not
come to see me, so I suggested they present a petition and that
is what they did.
1320
In 1994 the government presented a bill to the House which was
completely unacceptable. My hon. colleague opposite on the
Liberal benches asked what we could do to prevent it. One thing
would be to have effective legislation. However there is more
than that. We need to change attitudes. We need to change the
attitudes of our parents, our legislators and our kids. We need
to develop a set of values that will encourage people to respect
one another and not accept violent behaviour.
I have a couple of values I will state. There are some virtues
we need to have. The virtue of courage is an example. The
virtue of character is another. We must live our lives according
to what we know is right and wrong, where our word is our bond,
where we keep our promises, and where truth is the watchword.
I take exception when hon. members opposite or even colleagues
exaggerate or tell something that is close to not being true.
Members sometimes deliberately state something that is false. We
have a word to describe that. It is a three letter word and I
cannot use it here. The important thing is that it happens and
it should not.
If we all told the truth, wherever we were, our relationships
would be different. If integrity became the watchword in our
relationships with one another it would be a good idea.
I will respond directly to my Liberal colleague opposite. The
greatest preventive measure, and it ties directly into what my
colleague said a moment ago, is that we engender in our young
people and in ourselves the recognition that we not only have
rights under the charter of rights and freedoms but also
concomitant responsibilities. The actions we undertake must have
consequences and those consequences must be meaningful. They
must entail more than a simple tap on the wrist for violent
offenders or some silly little punishment that means nothing. We
need to get serious.
Some people, like the hon. member for Mississauga West, will say
I want to throw everyone in prison. That is not what I said at
all. That is an example of telling something that is not the
truth. The truth is that when there is a serious offence there
must be serious consequences.
Do those consequences mean we stick people in jail? Not
necessarily. Do they mean we teach people better ways of
handling conflict? Yes, of course. Do they mean offenders
should face their victims and recognize the pain they have caused
those individuals and their families? Do they mean they should
recognize that it is not only the victim who is the object of a
violent attack but the victim's family and indeed the whole
community?
Were the two young high school girls who came to see me
concerned only about their own welfare? No, they were there to
represent a whole other group of girls whom I met later. Then
boys came along and said they were in the same situation. They
were all victims of the threat that was out there. Let us
recognize that we are responsible for our own actions. The hon.
member for Mississauga West is also responsible for what he says
in the House.
I will go one step further. What have we done in the act? I
will refer to only one clause because it is central to the whole
business we are talking about here. Paragraph 146(2)(b) of Bill
C-7 states:
the person to whom the statement was made has, before the
statement was made, clearly explained to the young person, in
language appropriate to her age and understanding, that
What does this refer to? It refers to a police officer or a
person trying to preserve the peace who has the responsibility to
make a charge if someone has broken the law. The young person
being charged does not have to make a statement.
Why is that significant? I will not use more arguments here. I
will use observations made by the former attorney general of
British Columbia. His name was Alex MacDonald. Lest anyone on
that side of the House thinks he was a Liberal or a Conservative,
he was neither of those.
He was not a Canadian Alliance member either. He is retired now,
but he was a member of the NDP. He later became a member of the
legislative assembly and then the attorney general. Here is what
he said:
In 1984, Canada's parliamentarians, perhaps inebriated by their
exuberance for rights, replaced the Juvenile Delinquents Act of
1908 with the Young Offenders Act. It was as if they'd heard the
word from on high: “Come to the charter waters! Drink and your
souls shall live!”
1325
I am quoting Alex MacDonald. He went on further:
The centrepiece of the Young Offenders Act is its Section 556, as
it was renumbered in 1998.
It was renumbered to 145 in 1999, renumbered again in 2001 as
146, and I just read it.
The young person is under no obligation to give a statement to
the police officer. Mr. MacDonald asked what kind of signal that
gave to teens. It expresses one of the shibboleths of our law,
one which the criminal defence bar is apparently prepared to
defend to the death. Never mind that it contradicts the wisdom
of the ages when it comes to raising youngsters to become
responsible adults. Why? Because it allows teens two ways to
escape responsibility for their mistakes.
First, as passed by parliament, the bill would allow young
offenders to refuse to answer a police officer's questions about
wrongdoing in which they may have been involved, even if the
police officer saw them do it.
There is a case in Kamloops where a youngster was seen damaging
some property. A police officer happened to be right there and
asked the kid if he did it. The young kid looked at him and said
he did not have to talk to him, so he did not. The law says he
does not have to do so. That is the first escape.
Second, the bill would place no onus on young offenders to
explain to a court what they have been up to even after a fair,
though not conclusive, case has been presented against them.
Many of us as parents know only too well that when our children
behave in a manner that is not appropriate they will often behave
in a peculiar way. We will know that something is not quite up
to snuff and that there is something bothering them. Usually,
although not necessarily, they will have done something wrong.
The simplest question is to ask what is the matter. If they do
not tell us it often begins to gnaw inside and turn them inside
out. If they have done something really bad we could perhaps
handle it. However when they keep burying it there is a problem.
There comes a time when confession is good not only for the soul
but for society. It needs to be done.
I wanted to talk about ways to rehabilitate young offenders but
we do not have time. I am sorry about that. I would have liked
to draw the attention of members to ways of amending the act so
that it would resolve the issue better than is the case now.
Mr. Darrel Stinson (Okanagan—Shuswap, Canadian
Alliance): Madam Speaker, I listened to my colleague speaking
about the Young Offenders Act and I cannot agree more.
The member probably has run into situations as many times as I
have in going around to schools and talking to young people. The
young people I have spoken to have pushed me to try to have
something addressed in the Young Offenders Act. They have spoken
time and again about the fear they have of their own peers in
many cases. They absolutely point to the Young Offenders Act as
one of the causes of their fear because they know young offenders
will have no penalty handed to them by the courts. That is one
thing I want to ask the member about.
1330
I want to step out of the Youth Offenders Act for a moment.
There are those of us who like to point our fingers at the Young
Offenders Act, and I am one. As far as I am concerned the Young
Offenders Act is a disgrace to our young people and to the
judicial system.
One of the big problems with our young offenders has been the
direct result of not only this government but the governments
before it. I point this out because today parents are no longer
able to stay at home to tend to their children. Parents have
been forced out into the workplace over the heavy taxation and
heavy costs of living in Canada. Therefore, I would like to
point the finger that way too, if I could, and maybe ask the hon.
member to comment on that.
Maybe another way for us to look at this is to hold the
government accountable for forcing both parents out of the home
leaving no parent to look after the children when they come home
from school. The children are now learning all kinds of things
at the parks, everything that goes on in the Young Offenders Act.
Mr. Werner Schmidt: Madam Speaker, I am glad the hon.
member mentioned that because it is certainly a part of this
preventive thing. It is also a part of our responsibility as
parents. He mentioned, in particular, the phenomenon of the
latch-key kids who come home and there is no one there.
My wife and I have two boys. One day when they were in junior
high they were exposed to some things they were not sure about.
In fact, it had something to do with drugs. They came running
into the house and, the younger fellow especially, wanted to talk
to their mom, but she was not there. They both needed to find
her because they had an important question to ask. They ran to
the back of the house and found her working on her flower beds.
She loves gardening. They ran up to her and told her what they
had been offered in the school washroom. They then asked her
what they should do. She was able to deal with them. I will
never forget that because she was there when they needed her.
I know many of my friends' children come home to an empty house.
A note is left on the fridge telling them that there are
sandwiches and that they should help themselves, or a note is
left telling them which button to push on the microwave if they
want hot chocolate. It is a different phenomenon. Does that
mean it is bad for both parents to work? No. It just means that
kids should not be home without some kind of adult influence in
their life. Someone should be there to help them.
I agree with the hon. member. Not only do parents have a
responsibility for their children but the teachers and the
community also have a responsibility for these children. How
many of us simply ignore and walk away from the problems our
neighbour's kids may have believing it is not our problem? When
I was child and I did something bad, I can remember a neighbour
putting his hand on my shoulder and saying “Werner, do you know
what is happening over here? Is this what your dad would want
you to do”, and I would behave myself. It made a difference.
I believe we all have a responsibility. It is part of the
prevention and it is part of the cure.
[Translation]
Ms. Carole-Marie Allard (Laval East, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I
would be glad to share my time with anyone who wishes to speak
to this bill.
There is one thing that strikes me in today's debate. Why is it
that members on the other side are not pointing out to Quebecers
that this bill serves, in fact, two purposes—
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): I am sorry to interrupt the
member, but she must indicate with which member she is sharing
her time. With whom will the hon. member be sharing her time?
Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: Madam Speaker, I wish I could tell you,
but I do not know who it would be. So, I guess I will not be
sharing my time, if that is possible.
1335
There is something that is puzzling me today. How is it that the
Bloc Quebecois on the other side is not telling Quebecers what
this bill is really about? This bill serves two purposes. Where
minor offences are concerned, the emphasis is put on community
services instead of custody. That is easy to understand. Why
send to prison first time offenders? In the case of more serious
offences, three changes are being made. First, there is a change
of courts. Young persons will remain in the youth court system.
They will no longer be transferred to adult courts.
It is important to mention that Quebec, where supposedly all is
well for youth, presently has the highest rate of transfers to
adult courts. This is a sad record. We and Manitoba have the
same number of cases referred to adult courts. Why so many
transfers? We must make sure that young people are protected and
stay within a system adapted to their needs.
This is the reason why I welcome with great enthusiasm the
amendment contained in the bill on the youth criminal justice
system, which will allow to keep young people before youth
courts.
The other proposed change is to lower from 16 to 14 the age at
which a young offender could be sentenced as an adult.
At present, we know that if a youth commits a serious offence,
the onus is on him to show that he should be allowed to remain
before the youth court. With the new bill, this situation
changes. The age limit will be lowered to 14 years, although
under clause 61, a province which wishes to maintain the age
limit at 16 will be allowed to do so. Again, the Quebec system
remains unchanged, since the age limit remains at 16 in Quebec.
It will be up to the government of Quebec to keep the age limit
at 16.
Another major change in the bill has to do with the location
where young people would serve their sentence. It will
necessarily be a correctional facility for youth. This rule
applies in all cases, the only exception being when the judge
passes the sentence on the basis of the evidence submitted.
He or she could decide, depending on the seriousness of the
offence, that putting this young offender in a youth facility
could indeed be detrimental to the other offenders held in that
facility. It is the only instance, and it will be up to the
judge to decide.
This is what this bill is all about, which is why I fail to
understand why there is such strong opposition to this bill. A
rather surprising misinformation campaign is going on right now
in Quebec. Unfortunately, certain statements made by members of
the Bloc Quebecois are a great disservice to the people of
Quebec.
I think the position of our opponents on the other side of the
House, of our friends should I say, is simply unacceptable. They
believe that putting a young teenager who has committed a first
minor offence in a youth detention centre is better than any
kind of action by the parents, the community or a crime
prevention organization, and it is simply unacceptable.
I do not understand that position and it worries me. For
example, does the member for Berthier—Montcalm, the Bloc
Quebecois' critic with regard to the youth criminal justice
system, want to increase the youth incarceration rate, which is
already at an unacceptable level? Right now, Canada's youth
incarceration rate is the highest in the western world. It is
higher than that of the United States.
For example, in 1997 the United States put 775 young offenders
between the ages of 12 and 17 behind bars, compared to 1,046 for
Canada. These numbers are based on proportional calculations, of
course.
1340
It is disturbing, and all the more so because recently in
Quebec four reliable people mandated to investigate issues of
access to residential services and administrative and financial
problems of youth centres in Montreal found that these
centres were poorly managed. When there is bad management,
mistakes and negligence are a risk.
What if some young people are forgotten in these rehabilitation
centres where they should get rehabilitation programs? This
could happen if the management is deficient. It is not right to
give the priority to structure.
As a government, our responsibility is to make sure young people
in trouble grow to be responsible citizens in our society. I do
not think sending them to youth court is the best way, when
alternative measures are available.
I am a lawyer. A few years ago, I worked in a youth court. I
saw parents who were desperate and had to appear as
witnesses in the case of their child. Too many young people have
paid dearly for small offences and will have a criminal record
for the rest of their life.
I have to admit I am a bit ashamed of being a Quebecer when I
hear another Quebecer opposite try to confuse the issues on a
bill as important as this one for the future of young people.
I believe that this bill on the criminal justice system, and let
us say this once and for all, offers a flexibility that will
enable Quebec to continue its good work if it so wishes. It
contains precise principles which will guide the youth
court judges. Access to extraordinary measures was mentioned in
the Young Offenders Act when it was passed in 1986, but now
these are specified, and the judge has the
opportunity to use new measures. This is important.
There is the possibility of reprimands, orders for
support and intensive supervision. There is the possibility of
orders to submit to approved programs and of custody and
supervision orders. There is the provision of programs, when
the youth is in detention, to monitor him once he has returned
to the community.
These new sentences will be to the young offender's advantage,
since they will provide the courts with alternative measures
proportional with each adolescent's offence and situation. The
new bill sets out clear restrictions on custody.
It must also be pointed out that the bill limits the use of
custody to crimes involving violence, repeat offenders who have
not complied with previous sentences, who have
already reoffended and who have been sentenced for a serious
offence. It also limits custody to exceptional circumstances.
It troubles me greatly to learn that this bill has been so
misunderstood in Quebec.
In closing, I also find it regrettable that a young actor has
been used to promote a misinformation campaign. I believe that
confusion is still being spread throughout the public.
Unfortunately, I cannot accept such a situation.
I take this opportunity to invite all hon. members who require
information on this bill to contact us on this side of the
House, and we will be pleased to explain that this bill is not
what they are trying to make them believe it is. It proposes
some innovative solutions to help our young people become the
responsible citizens and adults of tomorrow.
1345
Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière—L'Érable, BQ): Madam Speaker, at
the outset, I want to point out that I will be sharing my time
with my hon. colleague from Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel.
I want to focus on some aspects of the bill that I find
particularly worrisome. First, we see once again that if members
of the Bloc Quebecois were not here to stand up for Quebec, we
certainly could not rely on federal Liberal members to do so.
Everyone in Quebec agrees on one thing. We do not want Bill C-7.
We do not think it reflects the reality in Quebec.
Despite what members on the other side might say today, Bill C-7
deals with Canada, with the problems faced by Canada, and we
believe that the situation in Quebec is quite different. Unlike
the other provinces, we have been successful.
Earlier, when the member for Laval East gave us what she called
alarming statistics, she said that over 1,000 young persons were
sent to prison in Canada. I would have liked to know how many
Quebecers were among these offenders.
I was here, during last parliament, when Bill C-3 was introduced
but could not unfortunately be passed. It was both fortunate and
unfortunate that this bill could not be passed. When the House
of Commons reconvened, we thought we would see some changes to
the bill.
We detected a certain amount of electoral opportunism with the
tabling of Bill C-3. We noted that the efforts of the Minister
of Justice were directed at charming the electors. We all know
the results.
We would have thought, when she again submitted her bill to the
House that she would have provided for a little more realism and
openness in the case of Quebec and the rest of Canada. That was
not the case.
I was a journalist for 16 years, and worked at the Quebec City
court house for two and a half years. In Bill C-7, what I
really object to is the talk of releasing the names of young
offenders. It permits publication of the name of an adolescent
serving an adult sentence.
Reference is made as well to an adolescent serving an adolescent
sentence for violent crimes.
There is no point saying that the worst punishment a young
person could be given is to have his or her name, picture and
background published in the papers. Even today, we see in the
case of repeat young offenders who have reached adulthood, 18 or
19 years of age, that the effect is incredible. The harshest
punishment a criminal can be given is to have his or her
background exposed in the media.
Let us imagine a young adolescent, male or female, aged between
14 and 18, who for all sorts of reasons has committed an
offence, and we know our society is undergoing profound change, these
are turbulent times, and that we publish his or her photo and
background in the papers while this young person is in high
school or college. The effect is extremely negative and may
harm the individual. He or she will carry this image and have a
really hard time, despite the best of efforts, in rehabilitation.
The media trial will be with him or her a long time.
As politicians, we are always on parade, facing the media and
we often make a statement and then retract it the next day. The
retraction may appear in a corner somewhere, while the day
before we made the headlines.
1350
The same goes for young offenders who find themselves in a
similar situation. Indeed, even after a fair trial, a trial that
has taken into account all the circumstances, the young offender
will be haunted by the media coverage of his trial.
People often only remember the original story. When there is a
retraction, or when a sentence or a verdict is handed down later
on, people have completely forgotten.
What they remember is the front page news with the original
story, a story that is often taken directly out of the police
investigation, but whose impact is not fully known.
I cannot believe that Bill C-7 will now allow the media to get
hold of this information. If we let the media get hold of such
stories, the young offender will be judged by the media and will
not be able to make it, regardless of the rehabilitation
efforts.
I also want to point out the fact that, once again, we see that
the situation in Quebec and the one in Canada are very
different. Some are trying to claim that the hon. member for
Berthier—Montcalm and the members of the Bloc Quebecois have been
conducting a misinformation campaign, but it is the other side
of the House that is leading such a campaign.
When Liberal federal members talk, we hear the word Canada
constantly, and from time to time the word Quebec, but they seem
to forget about the consensus that exists and the coalitions
that were formed against Bill C-7. They always follow the party
line. They always hide behind the objectives of Bill C-7 and
forget what really matters, the Quebec reality.
Today, just a few hours away from an important vote that will
certainly have an impact on our young people, I am asking, on
behalf of my colleagues, on behalf of young offenders and on
behalf of Quebec youth, that the present government show some
openness and allow the government of Quebec to continue the good
work it has been doing with the current infrastructures.
This situation could allow us, Quebecers, to continue to
function with a system that has already been proven effective,
while respecting the other vision people from western Canada and
maybe also people from Ontario have with regard to young
offenders.
What we are saying today is that we would like to opt out of
Bill C-7 so that Quebec may continue the good work it has been
doing for many years.
Ms. Carole-Marie Allard (Laval East, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I
heard my hon. colleague say that he had been a journalist, like
me. Therefore I salute a former fellow journalist.
Would my hon. colleague agree to say that the current situation
is unacceptable in the sense that, as the hon. member is surely
aware, the names of young people are currently published even
before they are found guilty?
Is he aware that the new legislation proposes to prohibit the
publication of names before the end of a trial, which means that
a young person will have to be found guilty and sentenced as an
adult before his name gets published?
Does he not find that is a benefit provided by the new Bill C-7?
1355
Mr. Odina Desrochers: Madam Speaker, unless my memory does not
serve me well, as far as I know, under the Youth Protection Act,
when a youth appears before a court, his name remains
confidential. When a 17 year old youth gets arrested, we notice
that photographers always hide his face. I have never seen the
names of youths under 18 identified.
However, the name of a youth can be identified if the case is
transferred to an adult court. However as far as I know, currently
the Youth Court Act fully protects young offenders and their
names are not published. On the contrary, if their names are
published, that can be considered a contempt of court. The
legislation is rather severe on that account.
Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: Madam Speaker, does my colleague know
that Quebec and Manitoba have the highest rate of transfers to
adult court?
This means, for those young offenders transferred to adult
court, and curiously there is a high proportion of them in Quebec,
and I was very surprised to learn that we hold the record on
this score, as soon as their file is transferred, their names can
be published. We should recognize this is one
improvement brought about by this new bill since there will no
longer be any transfers to adult court and all cases will be
heard by the youth court.
Will the member admit that the ban on the disclosure of young
offenders' names is an improvement?
Mr. Odina Desrochers: Madam Speaker, the point here is not to
find out what we will admit or not. The point is that the
situation is different in Quebec and that we do not want Bill
C-7. We find nothing positive in this bill.
We want Quebec to continue to stand alone and to keep a system
that is working well, has proven effective and, most
importantly, is adapted to the social reality of Quebec.
Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: Madam Speaker, does the hon. member
realize that if Quebec opts out from the application of a
federal act, there are risks involved? Quebecers will be free to
invoke the charter of rights and freedoms if they feel
prejudiced.
Young Quebecers not allowed to be tried in youth court, but in
adult court, will be able to claim they were prejudiced.
Consequently, the hon. member's excuse for exempting Quebec from
the new legislation simply does not make sense.
I would like him to explain how he will justify this to
Quebecers.
Mr. Odina Desrochers: Mr. Speaker, I can see that once again
Quebec federal Liberals look at Bill C-7 from a Canadian, as
opposed to a Quebec point of view.
Fortunately, we in the Bloc Quebecois are here to call them to
order, to remind them that in Quebec we have a system that
works, a system that matches Quebec's reality, and that we do
not want Bill C-7.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[Translation]
FIVE PIN BOWLING CHAMPIONSHIP
Mr. Mark Assad (Gatineau, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to
congratulate the Quebec women's five pin bowling team, which
came away from the Canadian championships in Hamilton this past
May 26 with the gold medal.
The team members are Isabelle Plante, Sylvie Carrière, Lucie
St-Gelais, Christine Danis, Natalie Trudel and Joanne Trudel.
All are from the Outaouais region and we are very proud of them.
This is the first year that Quebec has sent a team to this
championship and the organizers commented on the sportsmanship
and team spirit of these bowlers, which they said had not been
seen on the national level for a very long time.
Once again, congratulations.
* * *
[English]
IMMIGRATION
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, this past Saturday a family was torn apart and said
its tearful goodbyes as the department of immigration deported
Pawel Sklarzyk's family back to Poland.
It has caused me to wonder why, if the family was so undesirable
in the first place, the immigration department extended a visitor
visa three times before deciding the family had been here long
enough. That took 11 years.
1400
I do not understand the Minister of Immigration's reasoning for
deporting Pawel and Beata Sklarzyk and their two Polish born
sons. Their two Canadian born children stayed behind with their
grandparents.
I hope now that the minister has split up this family she feels
better knowing that her department works so well that it sent
away a good, hardworking family, yet keeps hardened criminals,
such as Gaetano Amodeo, wanted for murder in Europe; Lai
Chanxing, wanted for a multibillion dollar smuggling scam in
China; and accused Philippine assassin, Rodolfo Pacificador,
within our borders.
* * *
CAMERA D'OR
Ms. Nancy Karetak-Lindell (Nunavut, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
congratulations again to Zacharias Kunuk, whom I congratulated
two months ago for receiving the National Aboriginal Achievement
Foundation 2001 award.
Today I congratulate Zacharias Kunuk, director of Atanarjuat:
The Fast Runner, for winning the prestigious Camera d'Or prize
for the best first time feature film at this year's Cannes
International Film Festival.
Atanarjuat: The Fast Runner has achieved groundbreaking
firsts for Canada. It is Canada's first Inuktitut language
feature film and the first Canadian feature film to win the
Camera d'Or.
The film is an exciting action thriller set in ancient Igloolik
and produced in Nunavut by an Inuit owner company using local
cast and crew. The film's producers are Mr. Kunuk, Norman Cohn
and the late Paul Apak Angilirq. The film is a co-production
with the National Film Board of Canada.
We should be proud of this latest achievement which truly
testifies to the vitality and diversity of Canada's feature film
industry.
* * *
[Translation]
GREAT CANADIAN GEOGRAPHY CHALLENGE
Mr. Jeannot Castonguay (Madawaska—Restigouche, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I would like to congratulate Pierre-Olivier D'Amours, a young man
of 13 who won the national finals of the Great Canadian
Geography Challenge, held at the Museum of Nature on May 20.
Pierre-Olivier, a student at École Cormier, in Edmundston, N.B.,
was one of 167,000 participants in the competition. His
determination and passion earned him first place, a $3,000
scholarship and a chance to take part in the International
Geographic Olympiad in Vancouver this August.
We are all proud of Pierre-Olivier and wish him the best of
luck at the Olympiad. Bravo.
* * *
SPAIN
Ms. Carole-Marie Allard (Laval East, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
Government of Canada has the honour and pleasure to welcome the
Prime Minister of Spain, Jose María Aznar, and his wife, Madam
Ana Aznar. Bienvenido Señor y Señora.
Today and tomorrow, Prime Minister Aznar will be making his
first official visit to Ottawa in order to study the
possibilities of increasing trade and investment relations
between Spain and Canada.
Our Prime Minister has already expressed his pleasure at the
ever expanding links between our two countries. Spain has in
fact been an excellent partner for Canada for 25 years now, not
only bilaterally, but internationally as well. The 1999 figures
for trade between our two countries were impressive.
On behalf of all Canadians, I welcome Prime Minister Aznar and
his wife.
* * *
[English]
HUMAN RIGHTS
Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, the Taliban edict to force the labelling of religious
minorities in Afghanistan is unacceptable in this day and age.
While the statement issued by our foreign affairs minister
condemning the Taliban is a necessary first step, Canada can and
must do more in conjunction with like-minded states to put
maximum international pressure on Afghanistan.
I have asked the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and
International Trade to examine the situation in Afghanistan and
recommend that the government sponsor a resolution in the United
Nations condemning the Taliban for this latest violation of the
human rights of its people.
With the committee's help we can begin to take the necessary
steps to hold the Taliban accountable for its oppression of the
citizens of Afghanistan.
* * *
COMMUNITY SAFETY AND CRIME PREVENTION
Ms. Judy Sgro (York West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise in
the House today to congratulate two community organizations that
have been awarded funding by the National Strategy on Community
Safety and Crime Prevention for their efforts to deal with local
crime prevention issues in York West.
1405
The two groups, Conflict Mediation Services of Downsview and
Doorsteps Neighbourhood Services have each been recognized for
developing innovative, community based programs to respond to
crime with an emphasis on children and youth.
The national strategy invests in local projects that address
crime at the root causes through a social development approach
because crime prevention and the safety of our communities are
priorities of this government.
On behalf of the constituents of York West, I commend both of
these community organizations for their hard work in fighting
crime and keeping Canada's communities safe.
* * *
[Translation]
ANDRÉE RUEST
Mr. Ghislain Fournier (Manicouagan, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the Women
of Distinction Benefit Gala was held in Quebec City on May 9. I
am proud indeed to have as one of my constituents Andrée Ruest,
who was awarded first prize in the field of sports and
well-being.
A former accomplished judo athlete, Ms. Ruest became highly
involved in this sport and has an impressive list of
accomplishments to her credit on the board of Judo Québec, where
she has sat for the past 19 years, including six as its chair.
She was Judo Canada's first female vice president, and is a
pioneer.
Trainer of the Sept-Îles judo team from 1977 to 1984, Ms. Ruest,
through her enthusiasm, increased judo's popularity among women
in my region, in Quebec and in Canada as well.
Everyone in Manicouagan joins me in congratulating her.
* * *
[English]
W.W. BOYCE FARMERS MARKET
Hon. Andy Scott (Fredericton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
congratulate Fredericton's W.W. Boyce Farmers Market on its 50th
anniversary being celebrated this year.
The market occupies a unique place in Fredericton. From Richard
Hatfield to Frank McKenna, Alden Nowlan to Norm Foster,
university presidents to socialists international, many have
viewed the market as a centre of their universe each Saturday
morning.
It is more than a place of commerce. It is where we gather to
become a community. I spend most Saturday mornings at the market
with thousands who love the bustle, the colour, the commotion and
the very good products.
The 50th anniversary celebration is to pay tribute to all the
farmers, the craft persons and other vendors who have made the
market the special place that it is.
I thank Heritage Canada for its contribution to the celebration.
I congratulate the W.W. Boyce Farmers Market and wish us many
more years to come.
* * *
PARKS CANADA
Ms. Cheryl Gallant (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the crisis in our national parks is
deepening.
The decision by park wardens at Forillon and La Mauricie National
Parks and at the Saguenay—St. Lawrence Marine Park in Quebec to
refuse to work in unsafe working conditions is further indication
that the Parks Canada agency is out of control.
Park wardens were ordered out of uniform while the agency spent
tens of thousands of dollars buying shotguns it has now been told
it cannot use. It continues to pay for firearms training in
Regina today. Parks Canada continues to waste millions of
dollars that would be better spent on wildlife protection. The
decision to order park wardens back in uniform is wrong.
As a result of the May 15th interim health and safety ruling by
HRDC, nothing is resolved over who is protecting wildlife in our
national parks. Once again it puts wardens at risk and is
forcing wardens to refuse to work. Morale is at an all time low
as park wardens are being ordered to teach the RCMP—
The Speaker: The hon. member for
Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle.
* * *
[Translation]
THE ECONOMY
Mr. Robert Bertrand (Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the Liberal government's last economic statement was one of
prudence.
The Liberal government can generate surpluses, pay down the
debt, lower taxes and deliver on its promises with respect to
health, children and innovation despite the economic downturn.
This was the message delivered by the Minister of Finance on May
17. Our government is on target and implementing its plan.
Thanks to our foresight, Canada's economy is better equipped to
weather global economic ups and downs.
Yes, we are on target.
We are introducing the $100 billion in tax cuts announced in
October and, thanks to unprecedented tax relief, taxpayers will
have more money in their wallets.
* * *
1410
[English]
MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
an editorial published today in the Canadian Medical
Association's journal calls for the regulation of cellphones as
driver distracting devices that studies repeatedly show as a
cause of traffic accidents. Something needs to be done.
I call on the Minister of Justice or the Minister of Transport
to convene a meeting of their provincial counterparts to consider
all the possible ways of dealing with the issue.
I have a private member's motion calling on the federal
government to make driving while talking on a cellphone a
criminal offence, but the same effect may well be achievable by
means of provincial highway traffic acts. What matters is that
action be taken. It is time for the federal government to show
some leadership in making sure that one way or another this
growing menace to public safety is dealt with.
* * *
[Translation]
BLOC QUEBECOIS YOUTH FORUM
Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg—Jacques-Cartier, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, last Saturday, the Bloc Quebecois youth forum held
its general council at the Cégep du Vieux-Montréal. Some 100
young Bloc Quebecois supporters got together to talk, exchange
views and think about the blueprint for a sovereign Quebec.
Globalization, monetary integration, the fight against poverty
and a host of other topics, all equally interesting, were among
the items on the agenda.
There were some very interesting debates, a new departure for
the Forum Jeunesse, which is an essential component of our
party.
Under the chairmanship of François Limoges, a rejuvenated,
dynamic, intelligent and determined team will carry the voice of
young sovereignists to the four corners of Quebec.
The parliamentary wing of the Bloc Quebecois salutes the new
executive council of the Forum Jeunesse, wishes it good luck and
assures it of its support.
* * *
MICHENER-DEACON FELLOWSHIP
Ms. Raymonde Folco (Laval West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, allow me to
congratulate Martine Turenne, who won the Michener-Deacon
Fellowship. The fellowship was presented to her by Her
Excellency the Right Honourable Adrienne Clarkson, Governor
General of Canada.
The Michener-Deacon Fellowship was established in 1987 to promote
journalism and the public interest through the promotion of
useful values to the community.
The $20,000 award will allow Ms. Turenne, a Quebec journalist,
to report on the significance of NAFTA on an underdeveloped
region of Mexico.
I am also taking this opportunity to congratulate the producers
of the public affairs program The Fifth Estate, on CBC's English
language network.
This program won the prestigious Michener award for meritorious
public service journalism in a report or a series of reports.
* * *
[English]
PUBLIC SERVICE WHISTLEBLOWING
Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, PC): Mr.
Speaker, today I introduced a bill entitled the public service
whistleblowing act, Bill C-351.
The bill serves three purposes: To educate public service
employees on ethical practices in the workplace; to provide a
means for public service employees to come forward to disclose
wrongful acts or omissions in the workplace; and to protect
public service employees from retaliation for acting in good
faith by working to create a new level of transparency in
government.
I urge all members to support the bill and force the government
to honour a promise made in 1993 to pass whistleblowing
legislation.
* * *
THE ENVIRONMENT
Mr. Tony Tirabassi (Niagara Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
our government's sound economic planning is based on careful
consideration of economic indicators, such as gross domestic
product and unemployment rates.
However, these indicators alone are limited in their ability to
assess our progress toward the larger goals of environmental
sustainability and health. That is why we are strongly
supporting a national round table on the environment and the
economy and Statistics Canada in its development of environmental
indicators.
These indicators will provide us with hard, quantitative data to
ensure a sound basis for economic and environmental decisions.
They will show us if we are using our natural resources in a
sustainable manner and if our activities are causing irreparable
environmental damage.
Most important, environmental indicators will help us ensure
that our children will grow up in communities that offer clean
air and water, are free of toxic chemicals and are full of open,
natural spaces.
* * *
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton—Melville, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, how can we expect the people who
provide us with top quality food to live on less than $7,000?
That is what the average Saskatchewan farmer earned last year.
Today's headlines show how dismal the government's efforts are
in addressing the farm income prices. The Free Press
headline blared “Farm income falls for third year”.
1415
Input costs like the costs of fuel and fertilizer are rising
every day, making the picture even darker. Keystone Agricultural
Producers predicted that eventually farmers would quit. They
need to get a return or they cannot stay in business.
These numbers hide the real hardships farm families are going
through. Last week a government minister told prairie farmers to
start growing potatoes. Two weeks earlier another government
minister told P.E.I. farmers to quit growing potatoes.
My question is for the Prime Minister. When can farmers expect
the government to take some real action on the farm income crisis
and not give out conflicting advice from confused ministers? Does
he think $7,000 per year is enough to live on?
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mr. Stockwell Day (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, most Canadians know that our nation's
military is in dire need of more resources and more attention.
An example of this is our maritime helicopter fleet which plays a
vital role not just in defence but also in search and rescue.
The Prime Minister casually cancelled the EH-101 contract which
the federal Tories negotiated back in 1993. Since then we are
learning that his officials have been rewriting the requirements
in such a way that some have suggested it is an attempt to
exclude EH Industries bid from the process altogether.
Will the Prime Minister assure the House today that all
contenders will be dealt with fairly, openly and free from
political experience so that we can send the message that—
The Speaker: The right hon. Prime Minister.
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Yes, Mr.
Speaker, but we want a helicopter that can do the job that is
needed at the lowest cost possible.
Mr. Stockwell Day (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, apparently no decision has yet been
made in terms of the current fleet. However we learned this week
that the government is now facing criticism for appearing to
politicize the requirements of replacing the new helicopter and
actually suggesting that these replacement helicopters will be
less capable than the very ones they are replacing which are 40
years old.
We would like to know from the Prime Minister if the decision
has actually been made already and will the new helicopters be
actually less capable than the 40 year old replacements.
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we want a helicopter that will be able to do the job. We
are not politicizing this problem. It looks like it is the
Leader of the Opposition who is doing that.
Mr. Stockwell Day (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, seven years ago in the Prime
Minister's own white paper he said that this was an urgent need.
Is that his definition of urgency? We believe this is an urgent
need.
Will the government send a message to members of Canada's
military personnel that we support them in their desire to be all
they can be and to be the best they can be? Will he personally
take this on and get an immediate resolution of this issue?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, so far we have replaced some helicopters because search
and rescues have been contracted at this moment. We are waiting
for the helicopters to be delivered. The other part of it is
being done at this moment. The bid requests will go out soon.
Of course in 1993 we had a Conservative government which had a
$42 billion deficit and we could not afford at that time to
proceed. We waited for the government to be in a position to buy
the helicopters and we are in the process of buying them right
now.
Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton Centre-East, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, national defence documents describe
our Sea King helicopters as materially obsolete and operationally
irrelevant when they do fly. The emergency landing on an
Australian warship last week again showed how unreliable they
are.
Recently a Sea King kept in touch with the Katie mission
by Bell Mobility. The government has now delayed replacements
until at least 2006. For the safety of our crews will the
government consider looking for interim options including leasing
new helicopters before a disaster occurs?
Hon. Art Eggleton (Minister of National Defence, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, it has been said time and time again that we will
not fly these helicopters unless they are safe to fly.
In fact, the hon. member continually uses outdated information.
The up to date information is that we are investing an additional
$50 million in the Sea King helicopter to make sure that it will
remain safe to fly and can complete its duties until the new
helicopters arrive.
1420
Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton Centre-East, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, Canada's government has the dubious
distinction of continuing the worst procurement circus in
history.
After 25 years of studying, haggling and indecision the
government is prepared to replace the 40 year old Sea Kings with
craft whose range in a straight line is 20 nautical miles short
of Canada's 200 mile maritime boundary and 50 nautical miles
short of the Sea King's range.
Why does the government want replacements that fall 50 critical
life saving miles short of the 40 year old Sea Kings?
Hon. Art Eggleton (Minister of National Defence, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, let me make it very clear that the requirements for
this helicopter were written by the military. They were changed
in no way by the government. We are seeking a helicopter that in
fact meets the very requirements of today.
What the hon. member is talking about is old, cold war
requirements. What we are talking about is what we need for
today and the future. It is military requirements and no
political changes were made to the statement of requirements.
* * *
[Translation]
YOUNG OFFENDERS
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
Prime Minister claims that the criminal youth justice system
proposed by his government will allow Quebec to continue to
promote the rehabilitation of young offenders.
If the Prime Minister is telling the truth and if the new
federal criminal system does not jeopardize Quebec's success
with rehabilitation, why does the government not put in black
and white in the legislation that Quebec will be able to
continue to apply the existing act?
[English]
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I have said many times in
the House, one of the principles on which our new youth justice
legislation is based is flexibility.
I have said over and over again that they will be able to
continue, enhance and build upon those policies and programs in
Quebec. On top of that we will provide them with more resources
to do it.
[Translation]
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, this
is not true. All the experts in Quebec, all the stakeholders say
so.
Right now, as soon as a young person commits a first minor
offence, we determine the most appropriate measure for
rehabilitation purposes. From now on, this will no longer be
possible. The new legislation includes automatic sentences and
it ignores the specific needs of young offenders. The
flexibility will no longer be there.
Can the minister understand this? All the stakeholders say that
the proposed legislation is too strict. Why does she not specify
in the act that Quebec will be allowed to maintain the current
act? Just that. Then things would be clear.
[English]
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let me say again that I think
some of that which the leader of the Bloc has said is a
misrepresentation of that which appears in the youth criminal
justice legislation.
One of the guiding principles of our new legislation is the
particular circumstances in which the young person finds himself
or herself.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Mr. Speaker, with
this bill, the minister is introducing into the youth justice
system the calculation of provisional detention and the whole
matter of conditional supervision, principles that are already
in the adult system but are not currently part of the young
offender system.
Does the minister realize that this new method of calculating
provisional detention, and the fact that a young offender serves
only two thirds of his sentence as an adult, is going to have a
direct impact and to prevent the specialists from intervening
properly and from providing young offenders with the
rehabilitation they so greatly need?
[English]
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let me reassure the House that
there is no provision for parole in the new youth justice
legislation.
However, if that which the hon. member is complaining about is
the fact that young people after serving all or some part of
their sentence receive supervision in the community, I can only
say that I profoundly disagree with the hon. member. I think
that is a positive thing and will help with the quick
reintegration of young offenders back into society.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): There is another
example, Mr. Speaker. With the minister's bill, a 14 year old,
regardless of any provincial order in council, will be tried as
an adult for certain designated crimes, under adult rules and
before a judge who usually tries adults.
Does the minister realize that the new rules will prevent the
Quebec system from delivering the right measures at the right
time to this young offender, and thus will bring about the
failure of the rehabilitative approach used in Quebec?
1425
[English]
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I presume the hon. member
knows that under the existing Young Offenders Act, of which they
speak so much, it is possible to seek transfer of a 14 year old
to adult court. In the province of Quebec they transfer more
young people to adult court than almost any other province.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Not at age 14.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please, otherwise it will be impossible to
hear the hon. member for Halifax ask her question.
[English]
The hon. member for Halifax has the floor and we will hear her
question. I urge hon. members to show some restraint.
* * *
NUCLEAR INDUSTRY
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the G-8
has resolved to help Russia get rid of 34 tonnes of weapons grade
plutonium. That can be a good thing, but the current proposal
for accomplishing it involves transporting this hazardous
plutonium 4,000 kilometres across Russia and burning it in fast
breeder reactors which create more plutonium.
The German government is so concerned about these hazards that
it has said no to exporting the technology. I would like to ask
the Prime Minister what is Canada's position on this
controversial matter.
[Translation]
Mr. Denis Paradis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the Government of Canada
has made no decision on the program to dispose of Russian
plutonium.
Senior officials have met representatives of Greenpeace on
several occasions. They are aware of their concerns and share
many of them, naturally.
At some point, if the government decides to go ahead with this
program, it will certainly be on condition that safety and
environmental standards are set and that this does not
contribute to the proliferation of nuclear weapons.
[English]
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, it is
getting awfully close to decision time. I think it is fair to
say that every responsible citizen and every responsible nation
agree that we need to rid the planet of weapons grade plutonium.
The G-8 proposal under active consideration is simply too high
risk: too high risk in environmental insecurity and in health
terms. Why is the government not now using its diplomacy, its
influence and its resources to promote the immobilization of
plutonium as the safer solution?
Mr. Denis Paradis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I was saying, the
Canadian government has not yet taken a decision.
We received representations from Greenpeace and some other
groups. We share some of those recommendations. There is
nothing in front of us on the table right now. We will assess
the situation and if we go ahead we will be sure it is in
conditions that are safe, sound environmentally and do not
contribute to the proliferation of nuclear weapons.
* * *
ACCESS TO INFORMATION
Right Hon. Joe Clark (Calgary Centre, PC): Mr. Speaker,
the government has set its attack dog, Liberal lawyer David
Scott, on the access to information law. Mr. Scott has filed 15
separate legal proceedings designed to keep the Prime Minister's
records secret. He wants to hide information that may shed more
light on the Prime Minister's inference in Shawinigate.
Did the regular lawyers of the Department of Justice refuse to
launch these actions which are designed to subvert the law of
parliament? Why is the Prime Minister trying to shut down the
information commissioner?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the law is a law that was passed by the Conservative
government. It is being implemented. We want to respect the
law.
There is a debate among lawyers on how to interpret that. There
is nothing to hide, but there is some confidentiality in
government that has been authorized by parliament. The lawyer is
arguing with the other lawyers about exactly what we have to make
public or not make public. I will do whatever the court decides.
[Translation]
Right Hon. Joe Clark (Calgary-Centre, PC): Mr. Speaker, the
government's task force asked the Public Policy Forum to
consider the Access to Information Act.
1430
Could the Minister of Justice confirm that the first round of
discussions was held in camera, in the absence of the media?
Why are meetings on the subject of openness held behind closed
doors?
[English]
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, far from being secret, my
colleague the President of Treasury Board and I have put in place
a process by which all Canadians can participate in our review of
access to information legislation.
It is true that we are consulting with those who use the act and
have studied the act, but we are also encouraging all Canadians
through our website and by other means to participate in an open
and public dialogue about the future of access to information.
* * *
FOREIGN AFFAIRS
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, Bill Sampson has been in a Saudi prison for six months
now. He has never been charged with any crime and yet may
potentially face the death penalty. Canadians are deeply
concerned about his fate.
He was visited yesterday by our ambassador and by a doctor.
Would the government bring us up to speed on the condition of Mr.
Sampson?
[Translation]
Mr. Denis Paradis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Canada has regularly raised
the case of Mr. Sampson with Saudi authorities and has, on a
number of occasions to the various authorities, expressed its
concerns over his treatment, his right to have a lawyer and his
right to a fair and impartial trial.
[English]
Canada reacted swiftly and firmly to recent reports that Mr.
Sampson had been mistreated. We called in the Saudi ambassador.
We had meetings. Our ambassador in Riyadh had meetings with the
deputy minister of the interior, and we will continue to put on
pressure.
Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, we recognize that this is a very delicate situation.
There have been fairly recent newspaper reports speculating on
his condition.
We know that the ambassador visited him yesterday with a doctor.
Canadians are very concerned. I wonder if the parliamentary
secretary could tell us about Mr. Sampson's medical condition.
Mr. Denis Paradis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as the member knows
because he was briefed this morning, we do not have the doctor's
report yet.
Like I said yesterday, as soon as we have the report we will
analyze the situation. We will continue to put pressure on Saudi
authorities for good treatment for Mr. Sampson. I can assure Mr.
Sampson and his family that we are doing all things possible to
have a good situation for him.
* * *
[Translation]
YOUNG OFFENDERS
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the existing
Young Offenders Act is flexible enough to allow Quebec to deal
successfully with its young offenders. The new act is much
stricter when it comes to standardizing the approach with young
offenders from coast to coast.
Will the Minister of Justice admit that there is still time to
refer the bill back to the committee before it is passed at
third reading and to amend it so that Quebec can continue to
apply the act as it is currently doing so successfully? There is
still time, Madam Minister.
[English]
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I have said before, we have
gone out of our way to ensure that the legislation is flexible
and will permit local jurisdictions to pursue policies, programs
and approaches that they feel are fitting for their young people,
their communities and their provinces.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, there is a
problem. According to the minister, the judges, lawyers, the
national assembly, stakeholders and police officers in Quebec
are all mistaken. Everyone is mistaken except the minister, who
is in Ottawa but who knows what is going on in Quebec.
Is the minister not making young Quebecers pay the price for
Canadian unity? This is the truth.
[English]
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, indeed, nothing could be
further from the truth. Let me underscore again that the
legislation is flexible and permits local approaches.
Therefore I encourage the province of Quebec to continue those
policies and programs that work for Quebec. As I have said
before, we will even give it more money to do it.
* * *
1435
TAXATION
Mr. David Chatters (Athabasca, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, last year in Canada gasoline averaged 41 cents a litre
before tax. At the same time in the U.S. the average price of a
litre of gasoline was 47 cents before tax. Yet after taxes a
Canadian litre costs 71.2 cents whereas an American litre would
cost 62 cents, a difference of 9 cents a litre because of the
different tax rates.
The current energy crisis is an American crisis, but Canadian
consumers are paying more than U.S. consumers for gas. Given
that Canadians are now paying all time record prices for
gasoline, when will the government provide tax relief for
gasoline prices?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, as the hon. member knows, gasoline taxes are imposed at
both the federal and provincial levels. In many instances the
taxes at the provincial levels are higher than they are at the
federal level.
The Canadian government has offered to sit down with the
provinces. It has recognized that if action is to be taken on
this basis it would have to be taken by both levels of
government. So far the provinces have not indicated a desire to
do so.
Mr. David Chatters (Athabasca, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, it seems to me that the government did not have to
consult with the provinces before it raised gas taxes, so as the
senior level of government why will it not show some leadership,
cut gas taxes and provide relief to Canadian motorists?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, as a number of provinces have already indicated, unless
there were a very large decrease it would not make any difference
given the volatility of the price. That would require action by
both levels of government and the majority of provinces have said
exactly that.
* * *
[Translation]
DEPARTMENT OF CANADIAN HERITAGE
Ms. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, through its
official propaganda office, the Canada Information Office, the
government has decided to further step up it propaganda
activities and is now meddling in the content of educational
material intended for schools in Quebec.
Will the minister tell us the principles which guided cabinet in
changing the content of educational material intended for
Quebec?
Hon. Sheila Copps (Minister of Canadian Heritage, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, the program under which funding was provided is one
which was begun when Lucien Bouchard was secretary of state.
An hon. member: That was ten years ago.
Ms. Christiane Gagnon (Québec, BQ): Mr. Speaker, what we want is
for the minister to stop interfering in matters that concern
Quebec's department of education.
Why is the minister butting in?
Hon. Sheila Copps (Minister of Canadian Heritage, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, once again, the Bloc Quebecois sees problems where
none exist.
The program was introduced by the former secretary of state, who
wanted all students throughout Canada to have access to
educational materials in both official languages.
This is only normal in a bilingual country.
* * *
[English]
ENERGY
Mr. Brian Pallister (Portage—Lisgar, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, this week the premier of Alberta announced that he
plans on meeting with American vice-president Dick Cheney in an
effort to discuss energy exports. The Prime Minister's reaction
is to claim federal jurisdiction in the matter, undermining the
premier's credibility or at least attempting to do so.
My question is for the Prime Minister. Why does the Prime
Minister insist on turning provincial initiatives into power
struggles?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I have had a few occasions to discuss this problem with
the premier of Alberta. He has even praised my position in the
press. I have a letter from him in which he says:
Mr. Chrétien, Alberta appreciates the work of you and your
government in promoting Canada's energy industry—and notably
Alberta's—abroad.
I think I am in agreement with the premier. It is the member
who does not read the proper documents.
Mr. Brian Pallister (Portage—Lisgar, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, not since the national energy program have Liberals
understood provincial jurisdiction over energy resources in the
country. Provinces clearly have exclusive constitutional
jurisdiction over their natural resources.
The North American Free Trade Agreement allows Albertans to sell
their energy resources without bowing to the Prime Minister of
the country. Will the Prime Minister promise Albertans and all
Canadians that he will respect the rights of provinces under the
constitution and under NAFTA to market their own energy
resources?
1440
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we always respect the constitution. We have power and
obligations in international trade. We have an obligation to
make sure that security of supply is protected for all Canadians.
* * *
HUMAN RIGHTS
Ms. Jean Augustine (Etobicoke—Lakeshore, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, Canadians were shocked to learn last week that an edict
issued by the Taliban in Afghanistan would force religious
minorities in that country to wear special identification on
their clothing.
Could the Secretary of State for Asia-Pacific tell us what the
reaction of the Government of Canada is to this edict that
religious minorities must wear identification?
Hon. Rey Pagtakhan (Secretary of State (Asia-Pacific),
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for
Etobicoke—Lakeshore for her question. Indeed Canada condemns
this unconscionable Taliban policy that requires religious
minorities to wear special identification labels.
We believe that this edict violates the fundamental principle of
freedom from discrimination. Hence Canadian officials in
Islamabad have brought Canada's concern to Taliban diplomats
situated in Pakistan and to senior officials in the Pakistan
foreign ministry who have regular contact with Taliban
authorities in Afghanistan.
* * *
TAXATION
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. Last year
Canada's leading CEOs received a raise of some 43%, putting their
median pay package at $3.7 million. Meanwhile Revenue Canada has
said now that 41 major corporations with annual revenues of more
than $250 million paid no corporate income tax at all between
1995 and 1998.
How could the minister justify giving his rich friends and the
big corporations they direct tax breaks that amount to nothing
less than corporate welfare for the rich? How could he justify
that in today's modern society?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member knows that numbers such as the ones he
has just cited have always existed. There is a running number
because it really depends upon how much investment individual
corporations made over what period of time. Oftentimes the reason
that taxes are not being paid is that they have made very large
investments for the future.
The fact is that corporate income taxes are the fastest growing
section of our income tax take.
* * *
[Translation]
FISHERIES
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Speaker, northeastern
New Brunswick is experiencing a fisheries crisis that gets worse
with every season.
Lobster catches are smaller and smaller, crab quotas are cut
every year and plant workers are laid off after three weeks
work. This crisis is aggravating the gap effect, to which
thousands of families fall victim every year.
How does the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans plan to resolve
this situation and provide some relief to these people, who are
being increasingly affected by a crisis that is getting worse
with every passing year?
[English]
Mr. Lawrence O'Brien (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Fisheries and Oceans, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the issue raised by
the hon. member is one that has to be resolved primarily between
crab fishers and fish plant workers.
When the licences of an enterprise are sold, it is the
responsibility of the enterprise owner to deal with the crew
members.
* * *
[Translation]
THE ENVIRONMENT
Mr. André Bachand (Richmond—Arthabaska, PC): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Health and deals with the
situation in Shannon, Quebec, where the drinking water supply
has been contaminated by federal government actions.
The Minister of National Defence has announced a program that
will not solve the problem. Federal responsibility is clear,
and the contamination continues.
When is the Minister of Health going to require his government
to assume its responsibility and announce a proper long term
solution to the serious problem from which the people of Shannon
are suffering?
[English]
Hon. Art Eggleton (Minister of National Defence, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, we are working on a solution to this matter with the
mayor and the townspeople of Shannon. I met with them very
recently.
We have invested over $2 million to get to the bottom of this
matter so that we can make sure the water, both for the people
who are on our base at Valcartier and in the nearby communities,
will be safe. We are working toward a solution now.
1445
[Translation]
Mr. André Bachand (Richmond—Arthabaska, PC): Mr. Speaker, we have
a drinking water problem, and the government is dragging its
feet on this.
Some weeks ago, the House passed a motion calling for national
standards. Yesterday, the Canadian Federation of Municipalities
called upon the government to take action.
When is the Minister of Health going to act? What progress has
been made in the consultations with the provinces? What is the
government waiting for before it acts?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, at this
time we are working in conjunction with our provincial partners
in developing drinking water guidelines.
A few days ago in this House. we passed a resolution to
work more closely with the provinces and even to enact federal
legislation if that is an objective shared by the various
governments of Canada.
* * *
[English]
DAIRY INDUSTRY
Mr. Howard Hilstrom (Selkirk—Interlake, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the Liberals are telling dairy
farmers one thing and doing the opposite behind their backs.
The trade minister continues to give supplemental import
licences that allow more milk products into Canada than agreed
upon during the trade negotiations. This is a deliberate effort
by the government to undermine the integrity of Canada's supply
management system.
Will the minister commit to ending this practice and guarantee
that future milk imports will not exceed the agreed upon quota?
Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, no, our government of course respects its
international trade obligations. It respects the quotas it has
agreed to.
It might happen from time to time that a consumer locally needs
a particular product and some exceptions are made around it.
Obviously it is not our intention to make a habit or a rule to go
beyond the quotas we have actually agreed upon.
Mr. Howard Hilstrom (Selkirk—Interlake, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the minister cannot blame it on the
consumer. He and his department are giving the permits to do it.
It is typical Liberal action to say one thing in public and do
the opposite in private, to blame the consumer and to blame the
farmer. How about taking action and living up to our trade
agreement which says that we should only import as much as what
we agreed to? Otherwise we are hurting our dairy farmers on
farms across the country.
Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am very glad to hear the Canadian
Alliance Party supporting supply side economy and our politics on
dairy products. It is good news for all Canadian farmers.
As a matter of fact I think the House is now unanimously behind
the supply side economy in agriculture that we want to have. We
will continue to promote it to the rest of our dairy workers. We
will protect their rights in international trade negotiations. We
will continue to do that job in every international trade
negotiation we embark upon.
* * *
[Translation]
HEALTH RESEARCH INSTITUTES
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
when the bill to create health research institutes in Canada was
being considered, the federal government indicated that no
provincial health institution would be funded directly, without
the approval of the provinces.
How does the minister reconcile this commitment with his
announcement of May 23 that four health facilities in Quebec,
namely a CLSC, two regional boards and a hospital, would receive
$10.8 million for telehealth projects, when Quebec was never
consulted?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Quebec
was consulted by the Government of Canada.
In fact the Quebec department of health and social services
wrote me a few months ago to express its support for these
projects. They requested our funding and we gave them a
favourable response.
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the
Quebec minister of health has stated that his government was not
consulted.
I ask the Minister of Health to promise right now to put an end
to the unacceptable practice of providing funding over the head
of the government of Quebec for medical research projects in
Quebec facilities such as CLSCs, the regional boards and
hospitals.
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
hon. member must communicate more often with the mother house.
I am very happy to have here today and to table in the House the
letter, dated July 28 of last year, in which the Quebec
department of health sought funding for these projects.
We are very happy to invest this money to serve Quebecers as
well as people throughout Canada.
* * *
1450
[English]
IMMIGRATION
Mr. Philip Mayfield (Cariboo—Chilcotin, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of
Citizenship and Immigration. Ivy Tauber of Lac La Hache, B.C.,
an English war bride, landed in Canada on May 21, 1946. On
October 18, 1951, she was issued a Canadian passport by Canadian
external affairs. Last year, after applying for a new passport,
Tauber was advised that her first Canadian passport was no longer
proof of Canadian citizenship and that she had to apply again to
become a Canadian citizen.
Could the minister explain why this is so? Incidentally, I
wrote to the minister last August but have had no response.
Hon. Elinor Caplan (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if the member had given me notice of his
question I would have had an answer for him today. I am not
familiar with the case. I will be pleased to look into it.
Mr. Philip Mayfield (Cariboo—Chilcotin, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, after working, contributing to our
community, raising her family, paying taxes and voting for 55
years, I am appalled that Ivy Tauber can summarily be
disenfranchised. She was a Canadian citizen and has proof of
that.
Why and when was that citizenship revoked? Who has the
authority to summarily revoke it? Will the minister reinstate
Tauber's citizenship? Would it help if Tauber had voted Liberal?
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
The Speaker: Order, please. The Chair has to be able to
hear the questions and the answers. Even the minister might say
something out of order.
Hon. Elinor Caplan (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the suggestion that the member makes is
clearly ludicrous. It does not matter how a person votes in this
country as to what his or her citizenship is.
What I know is that there is often more to the story than what
the member opposite has to suggest. I would be pleased to look
into this case. If in any way something inadvertent has been
done it can be corrected, but often there is a situation. If the
member would give me the information, I would be pleased to look
into it.
* * *
TRADE
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian (Brampton Centre, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Industry. Presently
there are more restrictions on interprovincial trade than there
are on international trade. Interprovincial trade barriers
impede the free flow of goods and services between Canadians and
stifle the economic development of Canada.
Could the minister tell the House what efforts have been made by
the Canadian government to promote the removal of impediments to
interprovincial trade in these changing economic times?
Mr. John Cannis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Industry, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let me thank the member for
Brampton Centre for his question and acknowledge his interest in
the issue.
Over the years the government has been a strong advocate of
reducing interprovincial trade barriers. Let me point out the
agreement that was signed on international trade with the
provinces, the territories and Yukon in 1994.
Let me also point out that there was a meeting in April of all
ministers. They put forth an agenda which will culminate in a
meeting of all ministers on May 31 to June 1, basically to work
on reducing trade barriers within our country.
* * *
MULTICULTURALISM
Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, everyone in Canada knows that the multicultural
minister has slurred communities. Today at the heritage
committee she insisted that she did not need cultural sensitivity
training, even though she promoted this training for everyone
else.
Will the Prime Minister demand that his junior minister receive
her own training?
Hon. Hedy Fry (Secretary of State (Multiculturalism)(Status
of Women), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, while we are on the question
of cultural sensitivity training, I would like to quote the hon.
member across the way when he said:
The focus of the federal government's multicultural activity
should be on enhancing the citizenship of all Canadians based on
equality and not on race, language, culture and ethnicity.
We cannot enhance the equality unless we understand the barriers
that people face to achieve it. I invited the hon. member to
come with me to listen to Canadians across the country when I
went on eight regional consultations. He told me that—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Surrey Central.
1455
Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, that person needs help anyway. This morning the
minister told the heritage committee that her department policy
is to not share daily press clippings with the opposition
critics.
Canadian taxpayers are paying for this service. This is the
only department that has an official policy not to provide press
clippings. Why is it denying the opposition critics this
information? Why the secrecy?
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. We cannot waste time. There
are a lot of other people who want to ask questions. The
government House leader has the floor.
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member will know,
or at least his House leader knows, that this kind of subject is
discussed frequently at House leaders' meetings and is always
solved in a positive manner.
* * *
[Translation]
NAV CANADA
Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ): Mr. Speaker, rather than
meddling in the content of educational materials, the government
would be better advised to see that Nav Canada respects the
rights of francophones.
Apparently, Nav Canada will not hire unilingual francophone
candidates because they have to be taught English.
Does the minister responsible for official languages intend to
require that Nav Canada respect the law so that francophones
receive the same treatment as anglophones?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, Nav Canada is required to meet its obligations under the
Official Languages Act.
Nav Canada is subject to the provisions of the act and a
complaint has been filed with the Office of the Commissioner of
Official Languages. The process will go forward and we will
follow it very closely.
* * *
WOMEN'S HEALTH
Ms. Diane St-Jacques (Shefford, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Health.
The Centres of Excellence for Women's Health are a vital link in
the government's efforts to improve the quality of care being
provided by the health care system, the protection of health, and
the health of aboriginal women and of women living in rural
areas.
Will the Minister of Health tell the House what steps he has
taken to ensure the continuation of the vital work being done by
the centres of excellence?
Hon. Allan Rock (Minister of Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, last
week, I was very pleased to announce our intention to invest an
additional $1.7 million next year in the Centres of Excellence
for Women's Health.
The centres have contributed greatly to knowledge and have truly
established Canada as a world leader in all women's health
issues. I am particularly grateful to the women in the Liberal
caucus for their strong support of these centres.
* * *
[English]
AGRICULTURE
Ms. Carol Skelton (Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the average Saskatchewan farmer
earned under $7,000 last year. That does not include any wages
or return in equity.
The wheat board minister claims that his government has provided
$30 billion of passive farm subsidies. Saskatchewan farmers
could not have received much of this passive money. They would
like to know how much of this passive phantom money was used for
advertising and administration.
Hon. Ralph Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the statistics show that since 1985, through various
initiatives of the Government of Canada, there has been something
over $30 billion invested in a variety of farm support programs
across the country of which about one-third or so would have
flowed into the province of Saskatchewan. Those are the historic
statistics.
This year, through a variety of safety net measures, more than
$2.6 billion is being provided to Canadian farmers through a
variety of programs in co-operation with the provinces, and the
amount flowing into Saskatchewan is over $700 million.
* * *
MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the Minister of Justice in her capacity as the
minister in charge of dangerous driving legislation, et cetera.
The minister will be aware of the controversy surrounding the
use of cellphones while driving. The Canadian Medical
Association Journal had an editorial on it today. Could the
minister tell us whether she would be willing to convene a
meeting of her provincial counterparts to discuss the merits of
various ways of regulating the use of cellphones while driving?
1500
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, obviously the hon. member
raises an issue of some growing concern for many Canadians. I
would certainly be happy to have a discussion with my provincial
and territorial counterparts in relation to this issue.
Since the hon. member is a member of the justice and human
rights committee, he might want to suggest the committee take up
the subject. If he has recommendations I would be happy to
consider them.
* * *
PRESENCE IN GALLERY
The Speaker: I draw the attention of hon. members to
the presence in the gallery of a delegation of members from the
State Duma of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation, led
by His Excellency Mr. Gennady Seleznev, Chairman of the State
Duma.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Mr. Derek Lee: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I
think you would find unanimous consent to revert to routine
proceedings for the purpose of presenting the 21st report of the
Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs regarding the
selection of votable items in accordance with Standing Order 92.
Under the rules this report is deemed upon presentation.
The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to revert to the
presentation of reports by committees?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Joe Fontana: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
On Monday the first report of the Standing Committee on
Citizenship and Immigration was tabled. A couple of amendments
will be required to make sure the report actually reflects what
the committee did. Could I move the amendments to that report
with the consent of the House.
The Speaker: Is the hon. member for London—North Centre
asking for consent of the House to move amendments to a report of
a committee tabled on Monday? Is the hon. member moving for
leave of the House to amend a report that was tabled on Monday?
Mr. Joe Fontana: Yes, Mr. Speaker.
1505
The Speaker: Does the hon. member for London North Centre
have unanimous consent of the House to move these amendments?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[English]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
Mr. Joe Fontana (London North Centre, Lib.) moved:
That the first report of the Standing Committee on Citizenship
and Immigration tabled on Monday, May 28, 2001, be amended by
adding the following amendment to clause 94:
(a) by adding after the line 10 on page 39 the following: (b)(1)
in respect of Canada the linguistic profile of foreign nationals
who became permanent residents; and
(b) by replacing lines 22 to 24 on page 39 with the following:
any
(c) the number of persons granted permanent resident status
under subsection 25(1)
(d) a gender based analysis on the impact of this act.
The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to
adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[Translation]
YOUTH CRIMINAL JUSTICE ACT
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-7, an
act in respect of criminal justice for young persons and to amend
and repeal other acts, be read the third time and passed.
Mr. Mario Laframboise (Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-7, an act in respect of
criminal justice for young persons and to amend and repeal other
acts.
This will be my last opportunity to speak to this bill. It is
difficult to see how arrogantly the Liberal government in power
is treating the citizens, youth, and adolescents of the province
of Quebec.
For more than 16 years now, Quebec has been enforcing the Young
Offenders Act, and the system has worked very well. It has worked
so well that the Liberal government commissioned a study called
“Canada's Youth Justice Renewal Strategy”, conducted by the
officials responsible for drafting Bill C-7, which involved a
province by province analysis. It was noted that Quebec's charge
rate was the lowest in Canada.
Quebec's youth incarceration rate was also the lowest in Canada,
at fewer than 500 per 100,000. Quebec is the only province under
this threshold.
It was therefore not for nothing that last week, on May 23, all
parties in the national assembly of Quebec, the Parti Quebecois,
the Liberal Party and the Action Démocratique party passed a
unanimous motion rejecting Bill C-7, which the House of Commons
is getting ready to pass.
1510
In this House, we are supposed to represent the elite, but in
some areas, we are not the elite. When dealing with young
offenders, the rehabilitation and reintegration of young persons
in Quebec and in Canada, we are not the elite.
In Quebec, the elite is made up, among others, of members of the
Quebec coalition for youth justice, representatives of the
Association des policiers et pompiers du Québec, youth
organizations and defence attorneys, all those who deal day in
and day out with young persons.
They are the experts in rehabilitation who, for sixteen years
now, have made the Young Offenders Act successful in the
interest both of the people in Quebec and in Canada who are
watching us and of young offenders in need of rehabilitation.
Their task is enormous but so useful to society.
It is always sad to realize that a young man or a young woman
has committed a crime. Thanks to the comprehensive strategy
concerning the reintegration of young offenders in the community
developed by Quebec, the number of charges laid and offenders
sentenced to custody is lower in Quebec than in the rest of
Canada. So, the system in Quebec is working fine.
With Bill C-7, the federal government is again interfering with a
system that works well in one province in Canada. Members of the
House must understand that, if Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan
or Atlantic Canada had a system that was working well, everyone
would be inclined to defend the interests of that province.
Well, that is what is happening in Quebec. As a member of the
Bloc Quebecois, it is hard for me to see that Liberal members
from Quebec, who were elected in that province, do not understand
that the approach used by Quebec over the last 16 years with
regard to the Young Offenders Act is the best in Canada.
It is hard for me to understand that some of my colleagues in
the House speak out against Quebec's interests, against an
approach that has been recognized as being effective by all
experts who deal with the rehabilitation of young offenders.
There are several reasons for committing a criminal offence. In
the case of young teenagers, rehabilitation is the key to
getting back on the right track. That is how Quebec treats young
offenders, by going to the root of the problem and by trying to
rehabilitate the young teenager, in his or her interest, before
imposing a sentence.
That is why we have the best success rate in Canada.
So it hard for me to see members and the Prime Minister, who is
also a member from Quebec, take a stand yesterday, in this
House, and say: “If the Quebec act is so good”. As far as I
know, the Prime Minister of Canada is still a member from
Quebec. He should know and he should have noticed.
Numbers were used in the Canadian renewal strategy by
those who drafted Bill C-7. Those persons noticed, when they
drafted tables that the situation in Quebec was the best in all Canada. I
have copies of them that I could table in this House.
We can see that young people, young men and women who have
committed criminal acts have a better chance of getting back on
the right track in Quebec.
Ideally we should never have to use such a bill. Young people
should never have to appear before youth courts, but this is
still a reality.
1515
It happens not only in Quebec, but in every province in Canada.
Too often, young men and young women commit crimes for any number
of reasons. When we can understand young persons and their
problems, it is not too late to set them back on the right track,
which is what the Young Offenders Act is doing in Quebec. Once
again, the justice minister told us that all provinces
could adapt the bill to their own situation. We still have time
before the end of the session to include an amendment that would
allow any province to opt out of Bill C-7 and continue to enforce
the legislation currently in force in its jurisdiction.
It would be so simple and much easier for community
stakeholders. However no, look at how dumbfounded the members
opposite seem to be. Even if they do not want to believe the Bloc
Quebecois, the members from Quebec should at least take note of
the motion unanimously passed last week, on May 23, by the
national assembly of Quebec.
At the national assembly, members of the Parti Quebecois, the
Liberal Party and the Action démocratique du Québec unanimously
agreed to urge the federal government not to pass Bill C-7 or at
least not to implement it in Quebec.
Once again, in Quebec we have our own way of doing things, our
own approach. It is a societal choice.
Each province has the right to have its own vision for the
future. It has the right to make societal choices. Quebec made a
choice for its teenagers. It chose to take charge of them, to
trust the professionals, who tried to bring the young offenders back
on the right track, whatever their sentences were.
It is never too late to understand. That is exactly what I hope
my Liberal colleagues from Quebec, the Prime Minister, who is
from Quebec, and many of his ministers will do. Once again, they
are trying to make Quebecers believe they are wrong. I repeat
that all of us here do not form the elite who can best judge what
is good for our youth.
Let the specialists in the field decide. Leave it up to those
who deal with the difficult cases of teenagers and treat them
individually depending on their crimes. Quebec has a success
rate that all other provinces envy. When we get to the vote, let
us try to make the intelligent choice. Let us vote in the
interest of Quebecers. I hope my colleagues opposite will
understand that.
Ms. Carole-Marie Allard (Laval East, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this
concerns me as a Quebecer. The provisions of this bill do not
dismay me. On the contrary, this bill will improve the lot of
young people who commit minor offences.
When the member opposite presents his statistics, does he
realize that Statistics Canada figures show that Quebec
incarcerates the most young people with no criminal record?
I would like to know whether the member is aware of the 1996,
1997 and 1998 Statistics Canada figures showing that 319 young
people with no criminal record were incarcerated in Quebec.
Can this be called an ideal situation? The member opposite
comes from a small community. Does he not trust the community
organizations in his area to help young people who do not have a
criminal record? He knows very well that his municipality does
not have youth centres, which means that young people must go
elsewhere for the help they provide.
Mr. Mario Laframboise: Mr. Speaker, I simply wish to point out to
the hon. member that, according to Statistics Canada figures,
community centres, as she says, which should look after young
people, are represented by the Youth Justice Coalition.
1520
This coalition opposed Bill C-7: the Conseil permanent de la
jeunesse, the Centre communautaire juridique de Montréal, the
Fondation québécoise pour les jeunes contrevenants, the Quebec
Association of Police and Fire Chiefs, the Conférence des régies
régionales de la santé et des services sociaux, the Crown
Prosecutors' Office, the Child Welfare League of Canada, and the
Association des avocats de la défense du Québec.
I will stop listing the organizations opposed to Bill C-7 who
have said they support the Young Offenders Act as enforced in
Quebec. I hope that this will satisfy the hon. member.
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I
just want to make a comment. When I heard the member for Laval
East compare the youth centres to prisons, I thought to myself
that she must not have set foot in a youth centre in a long
time, because these centers really focus on rehabilitation in
the community.
I have met several of the 319 young persons she mentioned when I
toured Quebec, and especially on the North Shore. I spent a
whole morning talking to the parents of these young persons and
to the people who implement the Quebec legislation on a daily
basis. The youth centres are not prisons. That is the kind of
misinformation we can expect from the member for Laval East. She
should go over the bill more carefully.
I would like the member to comment on what the member for
Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine said this morning about the Quebec
coalition for youth justice making its position about Bill C-3
and Bill C-68 known, but not about Bill C-7.
No later than today, Pierre Lamarche sent out a press release
where he said:
We have to realize that the federal government is going ahead
with a backward bill that is totally inconsistent with what is
going on in youth crime in Quebec as in the rest of Canada.
My question concerns the comments made by Mr. Lamarche, who is
the president of the coalition of the various organizations that
were mentioned earlier, saying that, according to the coalition:
—Instead of wasting public money to implement a new system that
is not needed, the government should spend wisely and use the
money to strengthen the current Young Offenders Act, instead of
drafting a new legislation.
What has the member to say to Mr. Lamarche on this issue?
Mr. Mario Laframboise: Mr. Speaker, once again, when a taxpayer,
an influent member of society and a member of the elite who
knows and understands young people, both male and female, and
young offenders in Quebec, is asking us to do that, we must
listen to his comments.
Like him, we believe the federal government has an obligation to
invest in youth rehabilitation instead of spending time and
energy trying to change a law that is working very well in
Quebec.
Of course, I cannot but agree with Mr. Lamarche and ask the
federal government and the Liberal members from Quebec why we
should not take this opportunity to make a little amendment in
committee before the end of the session to allow Quebec to opt
out of the application of this legislation and invest the moneys
requested by the elite, those representing the people who work
with young people in Quebec.
[English]
Mr. Tom Wappel (Scarborough Southwest, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I wish to advise you as I begin that I will be splitting
my time with the hon. member for Waterloo—Wellington.
I am very pleased to engage in the debate on Bill C-7 today. I
want to do so by taking an historical look at what has happened
in the treatment of young people in Canada. The reason I want to
do this is that I believe we can learn from history and that we
can predict from history. If we examine history, we can get a
general feel for where we are going and for what is likely to
happen in the future.
I want to remind the members of the Bloc Quebecois in the 10
minutes I have that ever since the first day of Confederation
criminal law has been the exclusive jurisdiction of the federal
government.
It is up to the federal government of the country to pass
criminal law. That makes us distinct from the United States
where, for example, there are 50 states and 50 different types of
criminal law. Here in Canada we have one criminal law for the
entire country and it has been so since the creation of our
country. The various laws governing the treatment of young
offenders have all been federal laws and have pertained to all
youth across Canada from coast to coast.
1525
In approximately 1911 we passed the Juvenile Delinquents Act. It
existed in one form or another for over 70 years. I doubt very
much there are too many people in Canada who would seriously
argue that the frame of mind in place in the early 1900s insofar
as it related to youth remained in place in the late seventies
and eighties. Over the course of those 70 years, the ideas about
youth and about treatment of young people changed. As a result,
there was a movement to modernize, shall we say, the treatment of
young offenders.
That movement to modernize culminated in 1984 in the Young
Offenders Act, which was developed during the Liberal years in
power. It was, however, implemented during the Progressive
Conservative government of Brian Mulroney.
It became evident rather quickly that there were some problems
in the legislation. As time went on, it became more evident. A
lot of people started to complain about the Young Offenders Act.
Indeed, it became such a problem that during the second Mulroney
government mandate between 1988 and 1993, the government amended
the Young Offenders Act. Then justice minister Kim Campbell
brought in what I would call cosmetic amendments to try to
placate voters who complained about what were seen as defects in
the act.
One example of the kind of cosmetic amendment I am talking about
is, on the one hand, the Conservative government saying it had
increased the sentence for violent crimes to five years when the
reality was that the sentence remained at three years of
incarceration with an additional two years tacked on by way of
mandatory supervision in the community. On the one hand the
Conservative government pretended that it had increased the
maximum sentence to five years in jail, when on the other hand in
reality it was three years with two years of mandatory
supervision.
In any event, along came the 1993 election. In the 1993 red
book we said the following:
The Young Offenders Act will be reformed to increase sentence
lengths for certain violent crimes, allowing for full treatment
and rehabilitation of young offenders. We will ensure that
treatment and rehabilitation services are available to all
convicted young offenders. A Liberal government will restrict
the charges for which a young offender could be transferred to
adult court, but at the same time will develop the category of
“dangerous young offender,” designating a youth who could be
transferred to adult court, receive an adult sentence, and be
kept in an adult facility.
Obviously there is a question that has to be asked. If that is
what we promised, what did we deliver? Indeed, it is a fair
question. What we delivered was this: Bill C-37 provided for
amendments to the Young Offenders Act which came into force in
December 1995. The amendments focused on harsher remedies for
violent young offenders while encouraging alternative sentences
for non-violent offenders. That, however, was only phase one of
a two phase process. The second phase implemented by the justice
minister of the day was to ask the justice committee of the House
of Commons to fully review the youth justice system.
That second phase began during the first mandate of the Liberal
government and indeed was completed by the justice committee.
That was between 1993 and 1997. Once the justice committee
completed that study, it then had to be studied by the justice
department. The department considered the study and began the
drafting of legislation.
1530
Along came the 1997 election campaign. This was one of the
issues that was dealt with in the 1997 election campaign and we
on this side promised to improve the Young Offenders Act. The
result of that promise was the youth criminal justice act.
It turned out that it was apparently too tough for the Bloc
Quebecois. There were some arguments about what was going on in
the province of Quebec, which we heard many times. On the other
hand, it was too lenient for the then Reform Party. I would say
that is probably not a bad thing. It is therefore a middle of
the road approach: too tough for some and not tough enough for
others. It is probably a fairly good middle of the road
approach.
In any event, we asked the justice committee to consider the
legislation. During a period of time between 1997 and 2000, the
justice committee did that. It reported, there was a filibuster
by the Bloc Quebecois and the bill was stalled. The bill
continued to be stalled until along came the election of the year
2000. We won again, thankfully, and as a result we reintroduced
the act in February 2001.
Let us remember, then, that there was a two-pronged promise in
1993 to toughen up the existing act and to study the Young
Offenders Act. In 1997 we had the results of the study by the
justice committee and then we introduced this legislation. It
got stalled, then we had the election, and we have reintroduced
it again. The subject matter has been studied for many years. It
is now time to pass it. We will not be able to please the Bloc
Quebecois. We will not be able to please the critics. Our role
in government is not to dither but to get on with the job, so we
are going to pass the legislation, or at least that is the hope.
What will we be able to learn from history? I think we will be
able to learn that the treatment of young offenders changes with
time and with societal values. That means it is not static. That
means that after we pass the bill, in future years society may
decide to treat young offenders in a different way and this bill
may become anachronistic.
Second, we can learn from history that anything drafted by human
beings is not perfect. That is not a startling statement, but we
should remember it. This bill is not perfect. The bill before
this one was not perfect. Nothing we do can be perfect. All we
can say is that we have done the best we can given the
circumstances and given our knowledge.
Third, we can learn from history that it takes time and
experience to expose the faults of any legislation.
Fourth, we can learn that it has taken 17 years for the problems
in the Young Offenders Act to be exposed, studied and hopefully
dealt with in the youth criminal justice act.
Fifth, we can learn that the problems with this new act, and I
am sure there will be some, will be exposed, studied and
corrected over time, but probably not in less than a decade. In
the meantime, we can only do our best to try to enact corrections
to the problems we have found in the Young Offenders Act. I
believe this act does just that and I believe, therefore, that it
deserves the support of the House.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur (Berthier—Montcalm, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
my question is very simple.
How does the member explain the fact that, despite all that he
said, nobody in Quebec supports this bill? It does not have the
support of any youth worker, any judge, any crown prosecutor, any
defence attorney or even any crime victims' assistance centre.
Senior citizens are also against it. Several branches of the
Quebec Federation of Senior Citizens in certain administrative
regions have expressed their opposition to the bill.
I toured Quebec and I did not meet even one person who supports
this bill.
1535
I know the member was very active in the justice committee,
perhaps not as much recently, when we started looking at this
whole issue in 1994-1995. He has a good knowledge of the Quebec
approach with regard to the Young Offenders Act.
Here is my question: Why is his government refusing to allow
Quebec to continue applying the Young Offenders Act? Why is it
refusing to indicate clearly in Bill C-7 that a province could,
by order in council, continue to apply the Young Offenders Act,
knowing that constitutional experts, lawyers and legal experts
have already assessed the legality of such measure, considering
the fact that the Young Offenders Act deals with social law as
well as criminal law and affects various departments within the
province?
Why is the government, his government, ignoring Quebec's
unanimous request to continue to apply the Young Offenders Act?
[English]
Mr. Tom Wappel: Mr. Speaker, I listened attentively to
the questions of the member, who I know takes a passionate
interest in the subject matter and has for many years.
It may very well be, although I am not going to concede the
point, that there is not a great deal of support for the bill in
Quebec, according to the member, but I heard the justice minister
say yesterday that the Barreau du Québec supported the bill.
Certainly the lack of support would not be unanimous if that is
the case.
In any event, first of all this is a very contentious bill. It
is not surprising that there are very polarized views about it.
Just because there are polarized views does not mean that we
should not act. We are a government. We must act. We made
promises to the electorate. We indicated that we would change
the bill to make it better, to deal fairly and more effectively
with youth.
For the hon. member to suggest that the current system remain in
Quebec is the reverse of saying that Quebec should opt out of the
new bill. We cannot have that. We cannot have one criminal law
for one part of the country and another for another part of the
country.
Our system for the entire time we have been a country has been
one criminal law for all citizens. All citizens should be
treated equally before the law, under the same law, regardless of
where they live in the country. That includes youth.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Bellehumeur: Mr. Speaker, there is something I need
to clarify.
The member should read today's newspapers. He would see that,
contrary to the claim made by the Minister of Justice yesterday,
the Barreau du Québec does not support Bill C-7. There was a
correction by the president of the Barreau du Québec in the
newspapers today. The member should contact the Barreau du Québec
directly, particularly Mrs. Carole Brosseau, to know exactly
where those people stand on the issue.
The Barreau du Québec does not support the minister's bill and
it is part of the Quebec consensus unanimously asking the
government not to go ahead with Bill C-7.
[English]
Mr. Tom Wappel: Mr. Speaker, I will not argue with the
member as to the information he has given. I have not seen the
newspapers and, believe me, I do not believe what is in the
newspapers. I can assure the member of that.
It is my understanding that certain misinformation has been
provided to people in the province of Quebec. I believe that if
the information was put fairly to them, they would not be as
opposed as the member appears to say they are.
Mr. Lynn Myers (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I want to point out first of
all that criminal law is the responsibility of the federal
government, and for good reason. The previous exchange points
that out. As a federal government we need to bring to view the
balance and flexibility that is required. I believe we have done
a very good job with Bill C-7, the youth criminal justice act. We
have done it in a balanced and fair way.
On the one hand we hear people in Ontario saying to wait a
minute, that we are being very weak-kneed and not tough enough,
yet we just heard the member for Berthier—Montcalm say we are
too tough and it is too much.
1540
That is the beauty of being a federal government that has
compassion, ability and the political smarts to get the job done.
That is exactly what we are doing. We are ensuring that we bring
about the kind of balance and flexibility that is required.
I marvel at the Bloc member arguing about whether or not Quebec
would benefit. In reality, $191 million more would flow to
Quebec between 2000-01 and 2004-05 if it signs the agreement,
which represents a 39% increase over what Quebec received
previously in other agreements.
Fair minded Canadians wherever they live in this great country,
including Quebec, the maritimes, the west and central Canada,
recognize that the government has to act in this very important
area in a way that underscores the values and the generosity of
the people of this country especially as they relate to our
youth.
It is important to underscore that this is a pillar of the youth
justice renewal strategy our government has undertaken. Yes, it
has taken a little longer than we would have liked, but at the
end of the day I think we have a workable piece of legislation, a
piece of legislation that I believe people across Canada will see
as fair minded and important given their day to day lives, the
lives of their children, their neighbours and the children in the
community.
I believe it brings about accountability. I believe it brings
about responsibility. I believe it notes rehabilitation in a way
that is in keeping with the way Canadians operate, not too tough
and not too weak, but balanced in the way the Liberal government
has always tried to do it. We do it effectively. I think it is
worth trumpeting to Canadians the fact that we are able to bring
forward the kind of legislation that brings about the broad
interests of all Canadians across this vast country of ours in a
meaningful way.
We talk about respect in the bill. We talk about fairness. We
talk about the kind of built in flexibility sought by the
provinces to ensure that accountability is there at the end of
the day. Having listened to many witnesses, having been in
committee, having gone through the ways of this parliament in
terms of coming out with a good piece of legislation, that is the
kind of measured response we have done.
It has been a meaningful exercise. Despite some of the protests
of the opposition, I think that at the end of the day people will
see this as a very meaningful approach to youth justice. They
will see it as having the very key elements that are required.
I would like to take a few minutes to review them, if I may.
First is prevention. Fair minded Canadians understand that the
key to preventing people from getting into the system is to
ensure that prevention is there. We will be spending additional
money, $206 million over the course of the next little while, to
ensure that prevention is part of this.
In my own community I think of the Waterloo Regional Crime
Prevention Council that we were able to implement and put in
place. These are important grassroots initiatives. They are
important things that we have done community by community to
ensure that we have built in prevention for our young people. I
can tell the House that if we spend one dollar now, we will not
have to spend seven dollars later.
I think fair minded Canadians, who are what this legislation is
all about, will say “Wait a minute, an investment of one dollar
now is far better than seven dollars later”, especially in the
process of ensuring that young people with promising futures in
this country are then able to advance what they believe is right,
in keeping with their family values and the values of this great
country.
Second, we talk about meaningful consequences. We have to
ensure that people, especially young people, understand that
there are consequences of actions. As a former high school
teacher, I can tell the House that this is part and parcel of
what is required for any young person. Knowing that there are
meaningful consequences in place as a result of one's actions is
part of growing up.
Finally, rehabilitation and reintegration make up the third key
element in terms of what is required. We do not want young
people to get into that system and learn to become even better
criminals. We want them to know that there are consequences. We
want to rehabilitate them, get them back out with their
community, their school, their family and others in the area to
ensure that they go down a path that makes sense for them, their
families and the community at large. That is precisely what this
bill does, and I think in a very effective way.
We have gone on to ensure that the youth criminal justice act
better distinguishes between violent and non-violent crimes. For
example, punishments are proportionate to the seriousness of
offences.
1545
That is part of listening to people through the committee
process, listening to Canadians through consultation and focus
groups and listening to parliamentarians and others with vested
interests in these very important areas. We have done that and I
am encouraged by the net result. It is a very good piece of
legislation, in keeping with what the great family of Canadians
think is required.
I also want to highlights a few things in the bill. Canadians
need to understand that the bill encourages community based
sentences, for example, which will be more appropriate. They
will note that the compensation for victims will be part of that,
as well as community services, supervision in the community and
other things.
I also want to note that it would allow courts to impose adult
sentences on conviction when certain criteria apply. It presumes
that adult sentences will be given to young people, 14 and older,
who are found guilty of murder or attempted murder. In other
words, it may be the answer to more serious offences. That is
important. That is what I was talking about earlier when I
mentioned meaningful consequences.
It would create an intensive rehabilitative custody and
supervisory sentence. That is in keeping with the underlying
philosophy of this bill and the intent of the justice minister,
who worked very hard, along with the parliamentary secretary to
my left, to make sure the bill had the kind of details in it that
would make sense to Canadians wherever they lived.
It would require in general that youth be held separate from
adults. We do not want them mixing in a way that would end up
putting them into a different kind of situation that is far more
criminal. That is a real problem.
It would require all periods of custody to be followed by a
period of supervision and support in custody as well. We have
that kind of support mechanism built in that enables our young
people to be taken care of and hopefully mentored in a positive
and not a negative way.
While publications of names would be permitted, there would be
limitations with respect to that. It would only be permitted
when the crime was very serious.
I want to note that it underscores the ability of the government
to listen to Canadians, to deal as required and act as required
in a very positive and meaningful way in this very important
area. It underscores the ability of our government, the justice
minister, the cabinet and the caucus, to ensure that at the end
of this process, which has been a while, we come up with a very
workable piece of legislation which is in keeping with the
benefits that should go to our young people and with the
requirements that I believe society demands of us.
It saddens me a little when I think that the Ontario government
believes that punishment alone serves to protect society. It
saddens me a little when I understand that it wants to take, as a
philosophical base, that very harsh kind of approach. I do not
see that as working. I did not see that in high school. I did
not see that when I served with the Waterloo Regional Police.
What it requires is a concerted effort by all of us
parliamentarians.
I see the members opposite are clapping the Waterloo Regional
Police. They should because that is a police service it is
second to none in this great country of ours.
At the end of the day, this is a balanced approach, a flexible
approach and is an approach in keeping with the values of this
great country; tolerance and compassion. We are very grateful
that people on this side of the House had the wherewithal to
bring in this kind of excellent legislation.
Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, I was watching this with great intent. I appreciate
having the time to discuss Bill C-7, the youth criminal justice
bill, and the implications of that bill in communities such as
mine.
1550
There are several things I want to address. One is the age upon
which the current Young Offenders Act is applicable to and where
I think it should go.
One of the biggest questions I get when I talk to young people
in colleges and schools is when do we decide they are adults.
The age of sexual consent in Canada, thanks to the government,
has been reduced from 16 to 14.
People can drive cars I believe at 16. In some provinces people
who are younger than 16 can get a learner's permit. Drinking is
allowed at the age 18 or 19. People can be sent to adult court
maybe at the age of 18, or 17 or 16, but certainly at the age of
18. In fact, we are not sure when a young person is an adult.
We give the widest of messages to our young people.
The age of a young offender in this act remains at 12 to 18. We
suggested that ages 16 and 17 up to age 18 be applicable to adult
court. For instance, a young person can drive a car, and I
cannot think of a bigger weapon in the hands of anybody in this
society. If young people are old enough to drive a car, they are
old enough to think right from wrong and know that their actions
are right or wrong. Therefore, I believe the age of an adult is
above the age of 16. I will come back to this in a moment.
One of the frustrations I have personally had with the bill is
that the government has been messing with it, quite frankly,
since 1993 when it came into office. I was not elected yet, but
back in 1989 and 1990 many of us said the Young Offenders Act had
to change because it did not work. This is now the third act
that has been tabled in the House after three parliaments, and we
are still debating this. Even today I do not have the confidence
that this is going to become legislation at the end of the day.
I do not feel the government has the commitment to it nor
understands all the implications of the bill.
A part of the legislation particularly disturbs me. It is the
list of presumptive offences for which an adult sentence may be
imposed. The list includes murder, attempted murder,
manslaughter and aggravated assault. It does not include sexual
assault with a weapon, hostage taking, aggravated assault,
kidnapping and a host of other serious violent offences. Where I
come from issues like sexual assault with a weapon, hostage
taking, aggravated assault, kidnapping are all serious offences.
Yet they are not acknowledged by the government as being so.
I went through this with some British officials last week. Two
individuals in England, named Thompson and Venebles, are young
offenders. These individuals murdered a very young person who
was about two and a half years old. A price is on their heads.
The courts said that because of that they will allow them to
change their name and change their identity. In fact, they are
looking at shipping them to another country.
1555
I believe these two young people have turned 18. The British
government is looking for somewhere to send them. My information
is that it has one of two choices: Canada or Australia.
I bring this up because the government side is so sympathetic to
issues like this. I am concerned that individuals like them
cannot only come to our country, hide their identities and live
next door to anyone, but under the Young Offenders Act we still
refuse to make full identification of young offenders who commit
serious offences. Not only do we not disclose that, but we are
now in consideration of bringing two young offenders into Canada
under other names, and we will never know who they are until they
commit another crime.
I asked the solicitor general in committee a couple of weeks ago
whether these two would be coming to Canada. Of course he denied
knowing anything about it. What I did not ask him was whether or
not the justice minister or the immigration minister knew
anything about it. I believe that someone in the government
across the way has made a deal, and it is most inappropriate that
it happened.
In Canada there are individuals who commit serious offences like
murder or kidnapping. These are crimes for which a 16 or 17 year
old should be treated like an adult. There should be no deals or
appeals to a judge. They are adults. In my opinion if they are
old enough to drive a car, they certainly are old enough to know
right from wrong.
Although complex, the bill does not address two significant
things which I am concerned about. It does not address the age
factor nor the seriousness of crimes. If it were just these two
issues in and of themselves, I would say we probably could sit
here and negotiate something more worthwhile with the government.
However the fact is we have heard a whole litany of problems
with this piece of legislation.
What we will end up with is another convoluted, ineffective
young offenders act. I will call it that because that is really
what it is. We will end up with the same mess we had before,
except with a few more lawyers trying to simplify it and make
sense out of it, busier judges and a lot more police scratching
their heads, still not understanding it.
As much as the government would like to say it has everything
figured out on this, it has not. It has not addressed the two
issues that I and the people of Langley—Abbotsford, British
Columbia are concerned about, yet because we have a majority
government of course this perhaps will go through. It has only
been eight or nine years in coming.
I will be voting against this. It is high time the government
got off its keester and started listening to the Canadian people,
as well as the people in opposition who know full well that this
has become another convoluted piece of legislation that the
police will give up on, judges will not understand and lawyers
will make money.
1600
Mr. David Anderson (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, we are here today to talk about the
youth criminal justice act. The question I have this afternoon
is: Why do we even need the act? The answer is obvious. Youth
crime has increased in the country. It is something that touches
everyone including the government, and it has finally realized
that there is a problem.
We have a Young Offenders Act that has been demonstrated to be
clearly inadequate. Since 1993 the government has promised
change. The committee on justice and legal affairs held
extensive cross country hearings in 1996 and 1997. It presented
its report to parliament called “Renewing Youth Justice”.
There was a change of ministers in 1997 and at that time the
reform of the act was to be a priority. In 1999 the government
finally introduced Bill C-68. It was reintroduced in October
1999 as Bill C-3 and it hung around until the last election. It
was revived again this spring. The bill has had a longer life
than some of the young people it was supposed to protect.
We expected that when it did come forward it would deal with the
issues but it clearly did not. It not only demonstrates a lack
of ability to deal with children's issues but it demonstrates the
government's inability to address the real issues in the country.
It shows the government is out of touch with its people.
The definition of arrogant is having an exaggerated sense of
one's own importance or abilities. I would add a second half to
that definition. It shows a refusal to accept one's
responsibility. Arrogance is shown in how the bill has been
handled. It has been reintroduced for the third time with a new
name. Simply calling something by a different name does not
change it.
The Liberal government has refused to apply responsible
amendments. It has applied some of its own technical
housekeeping amendments, but it would not accept responsible
amendments from other parties. They have not even been
considered so Bill C-7, which was Bill C-3, which was Bill C-68,
is the bill we are discussing today.
First, there is a general refusal in the bill to deal with the
issues. There is a refusal to take responsibility for young
offenders. The bill does not deal seriously with the youngest
offenders. It still leaves children of 10 and 11 years of age to
child welfare and social services. We are not suggesting that
children of this age should be locked up, but it is essential
that they are involved with the justice system to get the help
they need.
Some of these kids need a structured solution. In the newspaper
in the last few weeks there was a case involving a young person
who was so out of control in his community that the community was
asking someone to come in and do something.
I have worked with young people for many years and one thing I
know is that they need structure. The younger they are, the more
important it is to give them a direction which they do not
necessarily have. The bill deprives them of that.
Second, there is a refusal in the bill to take responsibility
for older offenders. In our previous Young Offenders Act,
offenders aged 14 and up could be transferred to adult court for
a very limited number of offences. That provision was used very
rarely. Bill C-7 would allow for even more latitude in this
area. Provinces could essentially opt out of this provision in
whole or in part. They could change the provision so that it
only applies to 15 or 16 year olds. Some kids need to be in
adult court to get access to the services they require.
There is also a refusal in the bill to take responsibility for
the communities. In terms of identifying young offenders, Bill
C-7 would prevent a limited number of instances where young
people could be named to protect their community. The list is
restrictive. It does not include all violent or dangerous
offenders. It would provide courts with discretion to override
the identification of the offender.
We saw last night, in the government's defeat of a good
amendment that was presented to it, its lack of commitment to
these kids, the communities and the school systems that need to
deal with young people. We saw it vote en masse to restrict the
provision regarding the naming of young offenders.
I have been involved somewhat with education and with young
people. Educators and other people in our schools need to know
who these young people are in order to deal fairly and squarely
with them.
In Bill C-7 the protection of the public is second to
understanding the circumstances and the perpetrator. There is an
extensive emphasis on rehabilitation and reintegration. We have
already seen the results of that approach in my area.
Regina has been attacked by car thieves for years. Some of
these kids have been arrested dozens of times, with little or no
consequences for their actions. Where is the deterrence when
people can keep going back again and again to the same offences
and grow into adults who have little regard for the law?
1605
The protection of the public is not an overriding principle in
the legislation. Why should the protection of our communities
take second place?
The bill also refuses to take responsibility for crime
seriously. People have always been concerned about the three
year maximum sentence in the Young Offenders Act. We heard about
that often. We heard about extreme circumstances and an extreme
crime that took place, and young people were not held accountable
for more than the three years maximum sentence.
Bill C-7 would actually reduce the maximum custody period from
three years to two years. The maximum is three years but a
supervisory period must be included. For most offences we are
looking at two years of custody and one year of supervision being
the maximum sentence young people can face. One of the main
concerns of Canadians about young offenders is being ignored in
the bill.
There is also refusal to take responsibility for provincial
governments. The government would download the bill on to
underfunded provincial governments. At present the cost sharing
program is at about 75%, with the provinces paying 75% and the
federal government paying 25%. Our position is that the federal
government should be paying 50% of that cost.
It is a strange situation when the federal government has
responsibility for criminal law but absolutely no obligation to
fund the implementation of it. There have been long term
shortfalls in financing and there has been a shortage of
consultation with the provinces.
There is also a refusal to keep things simple. The bill is
extremely complicated. As one member mentioned this morning, the
Young Offenders Act has gone from 30 sections to 70 sections, to
over 200 clauses in the current bill.
The bill sets up rules. It sets up procedures. It sets up
exceptions to the same rules. The court may or may not name
offenders and adult sentencing may or may not be imposed. Many
of these things are left to the court's discretion. It is so
complicated that there were problems in trying to define a
violent act or a serious violent offence.
I have worked with kids, as I mentioned before, but the real
problem is not with youth crime. It is policy that destroys
families. Every one of us would recognize that the family is the
foundation of society. We need strong families if we are to have
stable young children.
We have many government policies that cause community and family
breakdowns and family stress. We have parents who want to be at
home when their kids get home from school. They want to be at
home when their kids leave in the morning. However they are not
able to be because of their financial situation brought about by
government policies. There are families that cannot keep up in
the world unless both parents work.
There are some things that need to be done to address the
problem of family stress. The government needs to take a fair
look at its taxation policies. At every turn people are being
taxed to death. Taxes continue to increase. We hear daily about
the government's huge supposed tax cuts that took place, but they
just do not register with people and they do not register on
their paycheques. We have property tax. We have income tax. We
have fuel tax. We have sales tax. The list goes on and on. The
government needs to take a look at its taxation policies and how
they affect families.
Our monetary policies have a great deal to do with family
stress. We see our dollar falling. We see Canada falling behind
in production. We see that people must work harder and harder to
break even, which continues to put pressure on the people who
least need that pressure on their families. People are forced
into the workplace. Some of them do want to be there. Families
are under stress.
Earlier I talked about arrogance and defined it as an
exaggerated sense of one's importance or abilities. The whole
bill smacks of that. It seems to be a congratulatory and
ineffective piece of legislation. It is unfortunate that it does
not deal realistically with the problems of youth justice in a
concrete way.
The problem has existed. It continues to exist and it will
continue to exist. Our kids are being left at risk. The
government should not be wasting our time and taxpayer money, but
I am afraid that is exactly what the bill would do.
1610
Mr. John Maloney (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
find it interesting that in consideration of the new youth
criminal justice act opposition members are getting into tax
policy. It shows the depth of their opposition to the bill by
grasping at straws.
I also find it interesting that members opposite and their party
keep insisting that crime, as well as youth crime, is going up
when in fact statistics show the contrary.
When the member says that nothing is new and nothing has
changed, why does he ignore the emphasis of the act on
accountability, proportionality, meaningful consequences,
rehabilitation and reintegration? Why does he ignore this
targeting of custodial sentences for repeat serious violent
offenders? Why does he ignore community supervision to help
integrate a young person after release from custody? Why does he
ignore adult sentences for youths 14 years of age and over for
very serious crimes and the presumptive offences? Why does he
ignore the publication of names for serious violent offences when
there is an adult sentence? Could the member explain this to me?
Mr. David Anderson: Mr. Speaker, I do not know how the
government members could possibly justify the taxation method
that they have in the country. People are overwhelmed by taxes.
We talked this afternoon in question period about fuel taxes that
are stressing people out.
If we ask the kids in our high schools today if they feel safer
than they did a few years ago they would clearly say that they do
not. They do not feel that those people who are threatening them
are being dealt with in a way that would remove them from the
system and keep them safe.
The bill offers discretion in every area. That is just an
excuse for people not to put in effective legislation. If we
offer discretion in every possible area, then we could say that
we have set it up that way, but everyone would know that we do
not intend to use it that way. It has just become a bureaucratic
mess and it may get worse.
Mr. Dennis Mills (Toronto—Danforth, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I feel privileged to have an opportunity to speak on the
legislation. I would like to come at the legislation from a
different point of view.
I have been listening to most of the speakers here today and I
have heard some good ideas coming from all sides of the House. I
especially want to acknowledge some of the thoughts put forward
by the member for Wild Rose who spoke earlier today.
I personally do not support the notion of a boot camp but I am
very much in sympathy with the notion of creating environments
for young people where they can achieve an atmosphere of
discipline and athleticism because all those things affect the
development of the whole person.
The preamble of the bill states:
Whereas members of society share a responsibility to address the
developmental challenges and the needs of young persons and to
guide them into adulthood.
With that preamble in mind, I want to share with the House an
experience I had last summer in Tor Vergata, Italy, which is a
university campus just outside of Rome. Last August, on behalf
of the members of the House of Commons, I attended the World
Youth Day event led by the Holy Father. This was the eighth or
ninth World Youth Day event.
It is an event where young men and women come from all over the
world to celebrate the values of sharing and caring for each
other.
1615
What I experienced at the event, which was attended by close to
two million young people from all over the world, was an attitude
and a spirit I have never witnessed in my entire life. I was in
attendance with the premier of Ontario, Mr. Harris; his minister
responsible for the World Youth Day celebrations coming to
Toronto; Mr. Chris Hodgson; and our mayor.
I raise this event today in the House because it can serve as an
example to members of parliament. They can draw on it in working
together to mobilize and motivate all the machinery of government
around the whole area of youth crime prevention. It can help
build the confidence, vision and hope of young people and teach
them that the values of caring and sharing are central to
building the fabric of the country.
For members of the House who may not be up to date on the
project, in July 2002 Canada is hosting the next World Youth Day
celebration in Toronto. We as a nation, along with the Catholic
church and the Conference of Bishops of Canada, will be inviting
probably close to a million people from all over the world to
come to Toronto for five days from July 18 to 28.
When these young people come together they will be demonstrating
to us as parents and legislators that they are interested in
working in their own communities and countries on issues related
to personal development, human development and whole person
development.
This is one thing I wish we could talk about more today when
debating the legislation before us. I sense that members of the
Bloc Quebecois are much more sensitive about the notion of
personal development and growth than many of us, quite frankly.
They have done a magnificent job in the debate today in talking
about the personal growth of young people.
I wanted to speak to the bill today and remind the House of
World Youth Day because it is a concrete example of where all
members of the House have come together with over 13 departments
of the Government of Canada to touch a million young people from
all over the world.
Our former ambassador to Russia, Ann Leahy, and her assistants
in Toronto are busy organizing the event. I wanted to put it on
the record today because as the year unfolds I do not think we as
members of parliament can do enough in the whole area of
prevention, of touching young people before they are put at risk.
I believe that has been the mission of the member for Wild Rose
for most of his life as an educator. It was the primary point he
was trying to get across today in the House when he talked about
his experience as a principal and an educator. He said we need
the tools that will allow us to assist in the personal
development of young people.
1620
I go back to the preamble of this piece of legislation which
reads:
Whereas communities, families, parents and others concerned with
the development of young persons should, through
multidisciplinary approaches...respond to the needs of young
persons, and...provide guidance and support—
That is where I want to come from. We do not do enough in
Canada to build dreams and hope and give proper instruments of
support to young people. Quite frankly that is why I am pleased
that we as the House of Commons have been so united in promoting
this event which is coming to Toronto in July 2002.
Some people have not connected with the profound impact the
project will have. I will give an example. If we hosted the
Olympic games we would touch, at most, 300,000 people per day.
With this project we will be touching one million people or five
times that number. I will be splitting my time with the member
for Chatham—Kent Essex.
On behalf of the House of Commons and the entire federal team
under the direction of former Ambassador Leahy, Cardinal
Ambrozic, Bishop Meagher and Father Thomas Rosica, I want to
convey that we believe in working with young people to develop
the whole person. We will be with them in Toronto in July 2002.
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I believe prevention is the key to success with young
offenders. There is no doubt about that.
The member and I could debate all day about the effectiveness of
so-called boot camp. The ones I have seen are very effective. I
encourage him to visit one some time just to take a look and make
up his own mind from what he sees.
I think he would agree that good parenting is a good thing to
have. A good solid home makes a big difference in the lives of
young people. In the province of Alberta a poll was taken of
working mothers. Seventy-four per cent said they would prefer to
stay home with their children if they could afford to do so, but
they could not. We have been after the government for some time
to give tax relief to families who choose to keep a parent at
home. That has never occurred. Could the hon. member tell me
why?
Mr. Dennis Mills: Mr. Speaker, I could not agree more
with the member. A mother should be given the option to stay at
home or to work. If a mother chooses to work, obviously that is
not a debatable point. However if she wishes to stay at home and
raise her children, there is no way tax policy should punish her
for doing so.
It is no secret that I have been a passionate supporter of that
idea for many years. Those of us who believe in the idea will
keep promoting it so that one day a majority of us in the House
will realize that it is a very special experience and a very
special gift for young people to have a mother who chooses and
can afford to stay at home and give that added amount of time to
her children.
1625
The Deputy Speaker: It is my duty pursuant to Standing
Order 38 to inform the House that the questions to be raised
tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon.
member for New Brunswick Southwest, National Defence; the hon.
member for St. John's West, Unemployment.
Mr. Jerry Pickard (Chatham—Kent Essex, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to participate in debate at third reading
of Bill C-7. The introduction of Bill C-7 followed a lengthy
period of consultation and review.
I remind members not only of the breadth and depth of the study
that preceded the introduction of the bill but of the very strong
arguments that were put forward to make sure the Young Offenders
Act and the youth justice system would be changed. I further
point out the extent to which the youth criminal justice act
responds to the recommendations of task force and standing
committee reports tabled over a number of years.
When the current Young Offenders Act was last amended in 1995
the government reiterated its commitment to conduct a
comprehensive review of the legislation and the operation of the
youth justice system. After a decade of experience with the
Young Offenders Act it was time to step back and assess how the
legislation and the youth justice system were working, and how
they could be improved in ways that took into account the
concerns and values of Canadians.
The standing committee on justice and legal affairs was asked to
undertake an extensive review of the youth justice system. In
carrying out its review the committee convened round table
discussions, held a national forum, canvassed various parts of
the country, heard from witnesses representing more than 100
different organizations and received more than 100 written
briefs. The standing committee on justice and legal affairs
released its report entitled “Renewing Youth Justice” in April
1997. It included significant findings about the youth justice
system and made 14 recommendations for change.
Contributing to this comprehensive review by the standing
committee was the report of a federal-provincial-territorial task
force on youth justice. The task force, established in 1994 by
the federal-provincial-territorial ministers responsible for
youth justice, was given a mandate to review the Young Offenders
Act and its application. The task force was composed of
provincial, territorial and federal officials with expertise in
youth justice. Its members worked in prosecution services,
correctional services, statistics and research, youth law policy
and law enforcement.
In proposing its response to the standing committee report
entitled “Renewing Youth Justice” the federal government took
into account not only the findings and recommendations of the
report but also the findings of the task force and calls from
Canadians across the country for a strategy to change the Young
Offenders Act.
As a result, a strategy for the renewal of youth justice was
released in May 1998. The strategy sets out the basic themes and
policy directions contained in Bill C-7 and, perhaps more
important, the rationale. The strategy identifies three key
weaknesses in Canada's youth justice system.
First, not enough money is being put into the system to prevent
young people from falling into a life of crime. Prevention has
been mentioned by almost everyone in the House. My colleague who
preceded me was very much of that mind and many members of the
House have said very clearly that prevention is important. This
is the direction in which we need to go.
Second, the system must improve the way it deals with the most
serious violent youths, not just in terms of sentencing but in
terms of ensuring they are provided with extensive, intensive,
long term rehabilitation that considers their interests and those
of society.
Third, the system relies too heavily on custody for the vast
majority of non-violent young offenders when alternative,
community based approaches could do better. The system must
instil social values, help right wrongs and ensure that valuable
resources are targeted where they are most needed.
1630
In response to these weaknesses, the new strategy proposes to
renew Canada's youth justice system with a focus on three key
areas: crime prevention and effective alternatives to the formal
youth justice system; meaningful consequences for youth crime;
and rehabilitation and reintegration of young people. All of
these, working together, will help society have a better system.
It commits us to target custody as a response to the more
serious offenders and to provide more meaningful community based
sanctions for the vast majority of youth crime, thereby
contributing to a reduction in Canada's youth incarceration
rates, which are among the highest in the western world.
For provincial and territorial governments, the federal
financial commitment takes the form of a five year financial
arrangement worth a total of $950 million to support the
implementation of the youth criminal justice act and the overall
policy objectives of the youth justice renewal initiative. The
new agreements promote and support a wide range of services and
programs considered most likely to assist in the rehabilitation
and reintegration of young persons in conflict with the law and
in reducing reliance on the youth court system and incarceration.
Additional federal funding would also be available to support
the development of programs required for the implementation of
the new intensive rehabilitation custody and supervision
sentencing option. These financial arrangements are an important
component of the flexible implementation phase undertaken in
close co-operation with the jurisdictions.
Through the youth justice renewal fund, provincial and
territorial ministries responsible for youth justice may apply
for grants and contributions to assist in the preparation for and
implementation of the youth justice renewal initiative. Funds
are available for activities related to training, community
partnership development or expansion, reintegration planning and
support and implementation contingencies. Examples of such
activities include: assessment of staff training needs in light
of new legislation; development of policies that will govern
youth justice committee work; review of policy and procedural
materials; and development and delivery of orientation sessions
on the new legislation for frontline workers, managers,
administrators and youth justice committee members.
With respect to the legislative process, let me note that prior
to the third reading of Bill C-7's predecessor, Bill C-3, the
election call came. However, the government's commitment to move
forward with new justice legislation remained strong. The Speech
from the Throne to open the first session of the 37th parliament
of Canada stated that the government would reintroduce
legislation to change how the justice system deals with young
offenders. New legislation would encourage alternatives to
custody for non-violent offenders, emphasizing rehabilitation and
reintegration into society while toughening consequences for more
violent youth.
This commitment to reintroduce youth justice legislation has
been kept. Bill C-7 was introduced in the House of Commons on
February 5. Bill C-7 is basically the same bill previously
introduced as Bill C-3, except that Bill C-7 incorporates
government amendments that were made public before the election
call. The inclusion of these amendments demonstrates once again
the ongoing consultation that is accompanying this bill as it
moves through the parliamentary system.
The government has consulted and listened. Many views have been
expressed, some diametrically opposed to others. The overriding
goal is to put in place a youth justice system that is fair and
effective, and that is what Bill C-7 would do.
1635
The substance of Bill C-7 has been open to public scrutiny for a
long time. Its introduction was preceded by lengthy studies and
consultation. Now is the time to move forward and replace the
Young Offenders Act with the youth criminal justice act, an act
that would instil values such as accountability, responsibility
and respect, which are long overdue in all of our systems. This
is an act that would result in the kind of youth justice system
all Canadians want.
Mr. Myron Thompson (Wild Rose, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, again I hear a speech that follows the rhetoric that the
justice minister has put forward for the last seven or eight
years. No matter who the justice minister is, it is the same
kind of carrying on in terms of rhetoric.
I would like the member to understand first of all that I do not
believe that young people who commit non-violent crimes should
even be in jail. I believe there are some good answers as to how
to deal with young people who decide they are going to break the
law in a non-violent act. I do not think jail accomplishes a
thing for them. Maybe after they commit many non-violent acts we
may have to jail them, but for at least the first one or two
times it is not necessary.
I constantly hear from that side of the House that it would be a
shame, for example, if the principal of a school expelled a
violent student from the school system. I constantly hear that
the person needs to stay there and learn and get educated and be
rehabilitated within that society. When will the government
recognize that in regard to any student who is a well known
violent individual maybe the 400 other students would be better
off and safer without that individual there?
When will the government start considering the safety of
neighbourhoods by saying that we need to open up the information
banks? What about someone who was once in jail for murdering a
senior and then is living next door to a senior couple, which has
happened many times? Why is the government so adamant that
violent people have to be treated with kid gloves?
Violence is something that has to be taken out of our society.
People should not be subjected to individuals who have constantly
proven to be violent. We all know it happens all the time. This
system allows it to happen. When will it stop? When will let
young people learn that they cannot violently hurt people and get
away with it, that it is a very serious crime and that very
serious consequences will follow? When will we stop treating
violence with kid gloves?
I do not see anything in the bill or hear anything that comes
out of the mouths of those people that indicates the government
is really serious about protecting the innocent victims. We
never even hear those people use those words any more. Instead
it is “rehabilitate the poor guy”.
This violence has to stop. What does this member suggest we do?
Mr. Jerry Pickard: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the
member for Wild Rose for giving me an opportunity to clarify that
position. I, like he, spent 25 years in education and I
certainly am very aware of what can happen when young people
disrupt the classroom. It is very unfair to all the other people
in the classroom. When children are disruptive, do not allow the
classrooms to operate and do not allow things to work, I do not
think there is a colleague in the House, either on this side or
that side, who would think that those children have to be in that
classroom and continue to disrupt it daily. That is not the
case. I do not believe it to be the case. I certainly would
never support it and I know that most of my colleagues would not
support it either. It is an accusation that is not supported by
my colleagues or myself.
The hon. member was very clear about separating the non-violent
people and not incarcerating them but instead giving them some
guidance, support and help. That is very important. The
non-violent people should have guidance and support where it is
required. However, as far as the violent offender is concerned,
with this bill we would have a lot more latitude in dealing with
the violent people the member referred to.
It is not just about putting them behind bars, but we can do that
and we will do that. It is not just about sending them to adult
court as adults, but we will do that under the bill. That is
very clear.
1640
This is not about just dealing with them on one basis, putting
them in jail, locking them up and saying that is the end. Per
100,000, Canada has more young people locked up than any country
that I am aware of. We have in jail 1,000 per 100,000 young
people who commit crimes. In comparison, the United States has
700 per 100,000. The U.S. numbers are much lower. The Americans
do not incarcerate as many young people.
The fact is that those young people need more help, a tremendous
amount of it. They need guidance. They need counselling. I
believe the members of the—
The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I regret to interrupt
debate, but I am particularly sensitive to the large number of
colleagues who wish to speak in the time remaining.
Mr. Paul Forseth (New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby,
Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I am splitting my time. I
have been given only 10 minutes to speak on third and final
reading of Bill C-7.
Third reading is the time to talk about the general thrust of a
bill as a whole. There has been a lot of talk and deliberation
about this type of legislation since the nationwide consultation
conducted by the Conservative government during 1992-93. It was
attempting at the time to address the anger in the land that had
developed over the operation of the Liberal legislation of the
day.
At this point we as a country are still not much further ahead,
because the Liberals are still in charge. Since they have caused
the present problem with the law, they are not now in any
position to repair the basics of their errors. The Liberals have
had reviews and some small amendments, but this time they are to
be judged by the public on what they are finally bringing to the
communities of Canada.
The bill is an example that goes to the heart of the competence
to govern. In the broadest estimation the bill is an utter
failure. It is a failure in many technical ways, but on the
general level it is another example of why the Liberals are not
worthy to govern. The bill is an example of a bureaucracy
entangling itself with objectives that are at cross purposes,
combined with insufficient political leadership to provide
guidance out of the forest.
Although many political analysts admit that the Liberals are
without principle, the bill is certainly the technical evidence
that the Liberals have no canopy of values to find the moral
compass of direction when they become lost in the tall forest of
competing interests and opposing concepts.
The nation is in this mess because of a previous Liberal
government that in its usual high purpose, we know best manner,
with all the great arrogance of the day, gave us the Young
Offenders Act over the clear objections of millions of Canadians.
In many respects the very objections and warnings given years
ago about the folly of the underlying assumptions about social
psychology and of the criminal justice theory assumptions have
all come true.
Here we are now, years later, still trying to fix the flaws.
True to form, the arrogance of the government over the bill,
which would be an administrative labyrinth, brings us convoluted
fixes to the problems that the Liberals created. They can never
fix their dilemmas as they do not possess the vision or the
principled perspectives to address what the community needs in
order to respond to the most fundamental Canadian social
problems.
The minister claims with self-satisfaction that the enactment
would repeal and replace the Young Offenders Act and provide
principles, procedures and protections for the prosecution of
young persons under criminal and other federal laws. The bill
sets out a range of extrajudicial measures. It would establish
judicial procedure and protection for young persons alleged to
have committed an offence. It would encourage participation of
parents, victims, communities, youth justice committees and
others in the youth justice system. It sets out the range of
sentences that would be available to the youth justice court. It
would establish custody and supervision provisions. It sets out
the rules for the keeping of records and protection of privacy.
It provides transitional provisions and makes consequential
amendments to other acts. In summary terms, those are the claims
of the government.
However, it is obvious that the government has failed,
particularly at the operational community level and at the levels
of broad themes and societal objectives. The Minister of Justice
has tabled legislation three times and three times she has struck
out.
Like most Liberal bills this is well intentioned, but it is
barely an improvement over the old YOA. It does not address the
concerns of Canadians, including provisions for realistic
sentences for violent crimes, focusing the law to deal truly with
young offenders rather than youthful adults or comprehensively
accommodating victims' rights needs.
1645
British Columbia has had a legislative basis for diversion since
1968, some 33 years ago. Street diversion and community programs
for offending youth, especially through Christian churches, were
working in the urban settings of Canadian cities for years before
matters became of such national concern that parliament began to
deal with it in about 1908.
When Liberals talk of their bill, one would think that the
alternative measures and diversions were invented by them.
Parliament has been struggling with a criminal set of rules at
cross-purposes to address the specialness of young offenders
seemingly forever.
Since we have had mostly Liberal governments, we as a society
have never been able to put to rest these issues. Now we have a
bill that is so complex that it caves in upon itself trying to
accomplish broad and competing objectives.
We need to clarify the basics. We are striving for a set of
rules that would outline how criminal law would apply to a child
or a young person. It is assumed that there is a diminished
capacity for a young person to appreciate criminal acts and
therefore they should not be subject to the full weight of the
law. As the bill shows, the Liberals have fallen all over
themselves. They have tied themselves in knots because they do
not have a guiding vision.
In each province we have social welfare legislation with large
systems of care, including social workers who have the legal
capacity to take into care with the full authority of a legal
parent any child who is deemed to be in need of care and
protection. If we had a wise but simple and more circumscribed
youth criminal justice act, it could complement and support the
social welfare mandates of the provinces.
We could have a supportive law that would help break the cycle
of offending and more fully support the huge amounts of money
that is spent in community responses. However the latest
managerial disaster of the government is off target in this
respect because philosophically the Liberals do not stand for
anything.
A dichotomy is revealed in the bill. Through many convoluted
provisions it tries to deal with the principle of diminished
capacity for young people, but in a most complex way it tries to
accommodate violent offenders and criminal code precepts such as
protection of society and denunciation. Gradually victims are
being allowed back into the scene. The bill is most inadequate
in that regard also.
Community expectations of a government providing peace, order
and good government are not met in the bill. The anger in the
land over public observance of how young offenders are dealt with
generally in the courts would not be diminished by this prime
example of Liberal ideological confusion.
It is clear that the government wants a bill, any bill that is
in the topic area, just so that it can say it has one. However
when the fundamentals of secrecy, age of application and a
confusion of focus is the substance, we can understand why the
Liberals have refused all the contrary evidence provided by so
many that they should be going in a different direction.
It goes to the heart of how we as a society value family and
children, how we care for those who do not seem to be able to
care for themselves and help those who are out of step with
community norms. It is about the knowledge to care. If a social
welfare agency, a social worker and a school authority are to be
part of the community response for children in conflict with the
law, they must be knowledgeable and fully informed. That must
not be discretionary.
People in my community are aware of young offender cases. They
observe what happens and they follow a case through the
community. They are not part of the process and anger begins to
increase. They watch time and time again as the case slowly
winds through the system and then they react. They call their
local MP and they sign petitions of protest.
Parliament has received millions of signatures in objection to
the philosophical underpinning of the bill that we have before us
today. People almost have a fatalistic approach. With a law
that is so out of touch with community values they have just
given up protesting at this point.
In view of what I have heard over the years, I can say that my
community does not support the bill and the underpinnings within
it. I cannot justify it either. Consequently I will be voting
against the bill at third reading.
Mr. Rick Casson (Lethbridge, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise to speak to the bill today. It
takes me back to the first year I campaigned for this job in
1997.
When I went door to door, one of the topics at the time was the
Young Offenders Act and the changes that people wanted to see.
1650
I remember one business that I went into. The gentleman was
completely distraught over the fact that he could not get any
justice for the problems he had been having with young offenders.
It is interesting to note that many years later Bill C-7 still
does not address the issues that so many Canadians are concerned
about.
I compliment my colleague from Surrey North who has made it his
life's work to bring in proper youth justice in Canada. Some of
the amendments he put forward would have made great additions to
the bill. Every amendment we put forward would have strengthened
the bill, made it more receptive to the needs of Canadians and
would have made our streets safer. These were the underlying
factors for putting forward our amendments to the new youth
justice act. We wanted our streets to be safer so people could
feel more comfortable in their homes and in their daily lives.
The member for Surrey North put a lot of effort into those issue.
He knows from personal experience what can happen when young
offenders go wrong.
One of the things our party proposed and probably one of the
most contentious was the lowering of the age range from 12 to 18
to 10 to 16. People said that we would be locking up 10 year
olds but that was not what we were talking about. We were
talking about helping young people in trouble, and heading in the
wrong direction, to get back on track and become better citizens
in order to contribute to society in a way that all Canadians
should.
Our party wanted a clear definition of a violent offence. We
wanted a schedule of offences so there would be no necessity to
play legal word games in the courts and no need for millions of
dollars to be spent in legal costs for arguments and appeals. We
should have a list of what a violent offence means. We should
include the offence of murder plus all the listed offences in
schedule I and II of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act.
These are the offences Canadians want to see listed as violent
offences. Those were in the amendments we brought forward.
We proposed the deletion of the term presumptive offence within
the legislation. We preferred the term violent offence to
determine when a young person ought to receive adult punishment.
We proposed the deletion of the term serious violent offence
because we felt that all violent offences were serious and that
it should be left up to the courts to decide the punishment in
those circumstances. However violent offences must be handled in
a specific manner to protect our citizens and our communities.
We proposed an overriding principle making the legislation the
protection of the public. We heard time and again that the
government placed more emphasis on the interests of the offender
than on the protection of citizens. The protection of our
communities should not take second place to anything.
We proposed the limitation of extrajudicial measures to first
time non-violent offenders and only if those extrajudicial
measures were adequate to hold a young person accountable.
Accountability is a part of the act that really needs to be
highlighted. Young people and their parents have to be held
accountable. If we did that it would put some real meaning into
the legislation.
We proposed a requirement for the attorney general to inform
victims of their specific rights. We felt that was important. We
proposed that the principles of denunciation and deterrence be
included within the legislation. A big aspect of any youth
justice act should be methods of deterrence.
We proposed that an adult sentence be imposed on young persons
who commit violent offences after their 14th birthday. The range
of adult sentencing would still be left up to the courts, and
that would include youth style punishments, but 14 and 15 year
olds who commit violent offences would be held accountable for
potential adult sentencing. Some people felt that proposal was
fairly harsh but we were talking about serious, violent and
repeat offenders. We must deal with those people in such a way
that our communities will be safe and our public will be
protected.
We proposed that young persons who commit violent offences be
identified for the protection of the public. People wanted to
know who those young offenders were and what they had done. They
felt they had the right to know if somebody who was capable of a
violent offence was living in their community.
1655
We proposed that a young person who received a life sentence
through adult court should receive parole eligibility between 10
and 15 years at the discretion of a judge. This was an increase
from the present range of 5 to 10 years, to put a little more
bite into the legislation.
We also proposed an increased maximum sentence for violent
offences other than murder. Bill C-7 would bring a custody
period followed by a supervisory period with supervisory time to
be one-half of the custody time.
We put forward all these proposals as amendments to the
legislation. They were researched and had the benefit of the
firsthand knowledge of the member for Surrey North. Not one of
them was accepted.
We ended up with a bill that appears to be the same as Bill C-68
and then its subsequent Bill C-3 and now Bill C-7. There is no
change. There is no more bite in the bill and no more protection
for Canadians than there was in the bill introduced as Bill C-68.
After months of review and hearing experts from all aspects of
youth justice, the only changes made include many of the
technical amendments proposed by the government to correct errors
in Bill C-3.
The government has not been open to change on any aspect of the
legislation. There were hearings where witnesses came forward
with many good ideas and with firsthand experience. People
involved in the youth justice system brought forward excellent
ideas that were not accepted. All the opposition parties, except
the Bloc, presented substantive amendments to Bill C-3. None of
them received debate in parliament. None of them appear to have
been considered by the government.
The provinces will be tasked to administer this legal nightmare
but the federal government does not seem to care. The government
has not been open to serious discussion over the proposals in its
youth justice law. There needed to be more willingness on behalf
of the government to listen to Canadians, the experts and the
other parties in the House of Commons to improve the law.
The government has promised $206 million over the first three
years for the implementation of the bill, but it would not even
come close to meeting the responsibility of providing 50% of the
funding for youth justice. The government has allowed federal
funding to slip to about 20%.
This does not only apply to the bill. We have seen that in
other areas of government responsibility where it has
historically committed funding to a certain level to help the
provinces administer the laws that are created here. The funding
has decreased from 50% to 20%.
The provinces have to carry that financial burden and to take
that extra cost into their own budgets to administer a law that
many of them are not happy with because it does not go far
enough.
An initial review of Bill C-7 indicates that the government has
made it even weaker likely to appease the Quebec government and
the Bloc Quebecois. That was one thing we saw. It said that if
the Canadian Alliance thought it was too soft and the Bloc
thought it was too severe it had to go right down the middle of
the road. We do not agree with that at all.
The age range of application will remain at 12 to 18. Many
people thought 10 to 12 year olds that were starting to get into
trouble needed some help. They needed someone there to pull them
back, to help them out and to put them back on the right road.
That has not happened and these young people are still out there
without direction.
The restrictions on naming violent offenders have not been put
into the legislation. It is up to the courts to do that. That
was something of critical importance to Canadians.
After the entire process of bringing the bill forward three
times this will be its last debate before it is voted on this
evening. We still do not have what Canadians have asked for. A
lot more could have been done with the overall philosophy that
the protection of Canadians as a whole should be the meat of the
bill. If the government had kept that in mind, it would have had
a bill that Canadians would have appreciated and supported.
1700
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, I commend my hon. friend for his comments. They
were very precise comments that delved into ways in which the
legislation could have been improved. I would also attach myself
with his complimentary remarks to the member for Surrey North who
found out in a firsthand way the tragedy that can be invoked for
families and victims in the criminal justice system.
My question, specifically, is about a reference that he made to
lowering the age of accountability to 10. I have a slightly
different take on this. I would like to get his reaction. It
deals with the element of transfers.
Currently in our justice system we have the ability to transfer
a person who fits the definition of a young offender, that is a
person between the ages of 12 and 18, into the adult court
system, whereby there is judicial discretion based on evidence to
take the person and try them as an adult.
I would like to suggest to him that a system that would apply
similarly where a young person aged 10 or 11, who had committed a
serious offence and had escalating behaviour as identified by
police or counsellors, could be transferred through a courtroom
based on evidence and submissions made by interested parties and
stakeholders before a court of competent jurisdiction, by using
the same principles of transfer. A child could be brought into a
court system where the circumstances permitted, for the good of
the child and the community.
This would be of great benefit and would enhance our current
system. It would enhance public protection, deterrents and
rehabilitation, all those elements of our criminal justice system
that we want to encompass in this and future legislation. I
would like to get his remarks on that suggestion.
Mr. Rick Casson: Mr. Speaker, my hon. friend's input into
the youth criminal justice act has been noted and appreciated.
His expertise in justice issues is appreciated by all members in
the House.
Any method we could use, whether it is a transfer through courts
or whatever, to bring these young people some much needed help is
important. That is the problem. We are not seeking to lock 10
to 12 year olds up. We are trying to do is to help these young
people. A lot of our young people are not in a family situation
that most of us would recognize. They do not have a mother and
father in a responsible relationship and the right instruction to
go out and be good citizens. They need that, and a lot them are
crying out for it.
As a nation, we should be able to take these young people and
get them on the right track before they go too far wrong. To not
do that is a crime. We are turning our backs on some large
numbers of young people. If we had the ability and the legal
right to reach out, help them and bring them back, we could make
a lot of difference to a lot of young people. Unfortunately,
this legislation does not allow us to do that.
Mr. John Maloney (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
am a little confused. Is the hon. member suggesting that we
should have a further separate system for those between the ages
of 10 and 11 or 11 and under? He referred to large numbers of
individuals in this category.
The statistics I have show that roughly 1.5% of the incidents
reported to police involve children under 12. Of that, 81% are
property offences and 19% are violent offences. Two-thirds of
the violent offences are minor assaults. How does the hon.
member justify those statistics with the approach that my hon.
friend is suggesting, even though public opinion indicates that
the preference is that these children be dealt with in the mental
health system and mental health intervention?
Mr. Rick Casson: Mr. Speaker, in my opinion one young
person lost is one too many if with a little help he or she could
have turned the corner and become a productive member of society.
We need to do whatever we can to ensure we reach out to as many
as we possibly can.
1705
The statistics the parliamentary secretary offered probably are
factual, but the fact is that whatever fraction of a per cent it
is, one young person is too many.
[Translation]
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski-Neigette-et-la Mitis, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, I am glad to share my time, because the more views
expressed in this House the better.
The clock is ticking. Usually, I am pleased to take part in the
House's debates. Today, however, I am quite sad to have to repeat
once more what I said before: this bill will leave Quebec unable
to extend a helping hand to young offenders who are themselves
victims more than anything else when they turn to crime.
They need help, not coercion. It is unfortunate that we have
before us a bill that does not please anyone. Alberta is
obviously not pleased at all with this bill. Ontario and Quebec
are not either. If we were to consult the residents of all of the
provinces, we would probably find out that a majority of
Canadians are against this bill.
There is only one flicker of hope left. It may sound strange,
but let us hope that the Liberal senators will be more
intelligent and more understanding than the Liberal members from
Quebec and will come up with the necessary amendments to make
this bill more palatable to Quebec.
When I hear people say that they would like this bill to be even
harsher, when I hear them talk about 10, 11 and 12 year olds and
in some cases 8 year olds, I cannot help but wonder what planet
this is. In what kind of country do we live in if we think, even
for 30 seconds, that we should take 8 to 12 year olds and hand
them over to the justice system because they did something we see
as reprehensible, when the first question we should be asking
ourselves is what kind of education they have received? What kind
of school do they attend?
What kind of primary care has society been providing to them
since birth for these children not to be able to behave as we
would like them to behave even though they were born with the
full potential of becoming perfectly balanced citizens?
It makes me very sad, and I hope all Canadians will know it
tonight through television, to think that in a few minutes
members will vote in favour of this bill. Those who vote against
it will do it for two reasons. For some, the bill does not go far
enough, it should be even harsher. For us, Quebecers, it goes too
far.
1710
The legislation is so rigid, contrary to everything the minister
said, that it will be impossible for any province to apply its
provincial system of justice and the approach it wants to use
with young people.
It is astounding to see that the minister is totally deaf to all
our pleas for justice for children. Finally, when we think about
it seriously, two things are
wrong: there are two officials sitting at the justice department
who see this as a personal victory. The bureaucrats are in the
process of defeating the parliamentarians. Since 1993, they have
been trying to impose upon us a legislation that makes no sense
whatsoever. These two officials, along with the minister, are
challenging us. They keep telling her not to back down.
This is what is so sad here: the bureaucrats are working against
the parliamentarians.
[English]
Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, I rise on behalf of the people of Surrey Central to
make our final statement in opposition to the youth criminal
justice system, which the Liberals are about to force upon our
nation. This is third reading of the bill and the last
opportunity we have to try to force the government to change it.
I want to take a moment to appreciate the hard work done by all
my colleagues, first in the Reform Party then in the Canadian
Alliance, particularly my neighbour and my friend, the hon.
member for Surrey North, who has worked quite hard on the
legislation.
The debate provides this side of the House with the chance to
summarize the great failing of the justice minister in her
attempt to change the Young Offenders Act. Speech after speech
in the House, witness after witness in the committee, bill after
bill in the House, the government has not listened to what
Canadians want in terms of addressing youth crime. In all
regions of the country there is opposition to many aspects of the
bill. However the justice minister will not listen nor address
these concerns, despite the fact she stated in the House that her
top priority was to deal with the bill.
Experts with a wide range of specialties were generous with the
government in terms of providing testimony, recommendations and
amendments, but still the weak, arrogant Liberal government did
not listen to them. The government continues to reintroduce the
bill, but it has failed to address the important issues facing
this nation.
We are now facing closure on debate on the bill. The government
wants to hastily pass a bill which will not work. Even the
senators are upset because they will not get enough time to deal
with the bill.
When the arrogant, weak Liberal government passes the
legislation, the complexity and loopholes will cause horrendous
delays and costs to our youth criminal justice process. Legal
bills will be phenomenal.
The government has not been open to change on any aspect of the
legislation and has refused to accept amendments. Oppositions
parties, except the Bloc, have presented meaningful and
significant amendments to this bill, but the government failed to
address them.
I can say so many things about what the government missed in the
bill, but my time is limited. However I will say that the
federal government did not consult Canadians about it. It
refused to listen to Canadians. It refused to have extensive
consultations with various provinces prior to bringing forth
these new procedures. The provinces will be tasked to administer
the legal nightmare, but the federal government does not seem to
care.
In conclusion, using closure to stop debate to move the bill
through, clearly shows that this arrogant, weak Liberal
government does not care about the youth criminal justice system
in the country. Protection of the public and victims take second
fiddle in the government's regime.
1715
As I have said, if this legislation passes, its complexity and
its loopholes will cause serious and horrendous problems with
extremely high costs to the Canadian society.
As a parliamentarian I am ashamed to stand in the House and tell
the government, which does not listen, that the bill will fail
because it does not address the real issues.
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: It being 5.15 p.m., pursuant to order made
Monday, May 28, it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings
and to put all questions necessary to dispose of the third
reading stage of the bill now before the House.
[English]
Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Deputy Speaker: All those in favour of the motion
will please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Deputy Speaker: All those opposed will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Deputy Speaker: In my opinion the nays have it.
And more than five members having risen:
The Deputy Speaker: Call in the members.
1740
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Adams
| Allard
| Anderson
(Victoria)
| Assad
|
Assadourian
| Augustine
| Bagnell
| Baker
|
Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Beaumier
| Bélair
|
Bélanger
| Bellemare
| Bennett
| Bertrand
|
Bevilacqua
| Binet
| Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
|
Bonwick
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
| Brown
|
Bryden
| Bulte
| Caccia
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carignan
| Carroll
|
Castonguay
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Charbonneau
| Comuzzi
| Copps
| Cullen
|
Cuzner
| DeVillers
| Dion
| Dromisky
|
Drouin
| Duhamel
| Duplain
| Easter
|
Eggleton
| Eyking
| Farrah
| Finlay
|
Folco
| Fontana
| Fry
| Gagliano
|
Godfrey
| Goodale
| Graham
| Grose
|
Guarnieri
| Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
|
Hubbard
| Ianno
| Jackson
| Jennings
|
Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Keyes
| Knutson
|
Kraft Sloan
| Laliberte
| Lastewka
| Lavigne
|
LeBlanc
| Lee
| Leung
| Lincoln
|
Longfield
| MacAulay
| Macklin
| Mahoney
|
Malhi
| Maloney
| Marcil
| Marleau
|
Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Matthews
| McCallum
| McCormick
|
McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
| McTeague
|
Mills
(Toronto – Danforth)
| Murphy
| Myers
| Nault
|
Neville
| Normand
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
|
O'Reilly
| Owen
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
|
Patry
| Peric
| Peterson
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
|
Pillitteri
| Provenzano
| Reed
(Halton)
| Regan
|
Richardson
| Robillard
| Rock
| Saada
|
Scherrer
| Scott
| Sgro
| Shepherd
|
Speller
| St. Denis
| St - Jacques
| Steckle
|
Stewart
| Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibault
(West Nova)
|
Thibeault
(Saint - Lambert)
| Tirabassi
| Tonks
| Torsney
|
Ur
| Vanclief
| Volpe
| Wappel
|
Whelan
| Wilfert
| Wood – 143
|
NAYS
Members
Abbott
| Anders
| Anderson
(Cypress Hills – Grasslands)
| Bachand
(Richmond – Arthabaska)
|
Bailey
| Bellehumeur
| Bergeron
| Bigras
|
Blaikie
| Borotsik
| Bourgeois
| Breitkreuz
|
Brien
| Brison
| Cadman
| Cardin
|
Casson
| Chatters
| Clark
| Comartin
|
Crête
| Cummins
| Dalphond - Guiral
| Day
|
Desjarlais
| Desrochers
| Doyle
| Dubé
|
Duceppe
| Duncan
| Elley
| Epp
|
Fitzpatrick
| Forseth
| Fournier
| Gagnon
(Champlain)
|
Gagnon
(Québec)
| Gallant
| Gauthier
| Girard - Bujold
|
Godin
| Goldring
| Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
|
Guay
| Guimond
| Harris
| Hearn
|
Herron
| Hilstrom
| Hinton
| Jaffer
|
Johnston
| Kenney
(Calgary Southeast)
| Laframboise
| Lalonde
|
Lebel
| Lill
| Loubier
| Lunn
(Saanich – Gulf Islands)
|
MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Manning
| Marceau
| Mark
|
Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Mayfield
| McDonough
| McNally
|
Ménard
| Meredith
| Merrifield
| Moore
|
Nystrom
| Obhrai
| Pallister
| Paquette
|
Penson
| Perron
| Peschisolido
| Plamondon
|
Proctor
| Reid
(Lanark – Carleton)
| Reynolds
| Ritz
|
Rocheleau
| Roy
| Sauvageau
| Schmidt
|
Skelton
| Solberg
| Sorenson
| Spencer
|
St - Hilaire
| Stinson
| Stoffer
| Strahl
|
Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Toews
| Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean – Saguenay)
|
Tremblay
(Rimouski - Neigette - et - la Mitis)
| Vellacott
| Wasylycia - Leis
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
|
White
(North Vancouver)
| Yelich – 106
|
PAIRED
Members
Asselin
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Coderre
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Lanctôt
| Manley
| Parrish
| Pettigrew
|
Picard
(Drummond)
| Venne
|
The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.
(Bill read the third time and passed)
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[English]
INCOME TAX ACT
The House resumed from May 28 consideration of the motion that
Bill C-222, an act to amend the Income Tax Act (deduction of
expenses incurred by a mechanic for tools required in
employment), be read the second time and referred to a committee.
The Speaker: Pursuant to order made on Monday, May 28,
2001, the House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred
recorded division on the motion at second reading stage of Bill
C-222 under private members' business.
1750
[Translation]
(The House divided on the motion, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Abbott
| Anders
| Anderson
(Cypress Hills – Grasslands)
| Bachand
(Richmond – Arthabaska)
|
Bailey
| Beaumier
| Bélanger
| Bellehumeur
|
Bergeron
| Bigras
| Blaikie
| Borotsik
|
Bourgeois
| Breitkreuz
| Brien
| Brison
|
Cadman
| Cardin
| Casson
| Chatters
|
Clark
| Comartin
| Crête
| Cummins
|
Dalphond - Guiral
| Day
| Desjarlais
| Desrochers
|
Doyle
| Dubé
| Duceppe
| Duncan
|
Elley
| Epp
| Fitzpatrick
| Forseth
|
Fournier
| Gagnon
(Champlain)
| Gagnon
(Québec)
| Gallant
|
Gauthier
| Girard - Bujold
| Godin
| Goldring
|
Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Guay
| Guimond
|
Harris
| Hearn
| Herron
| Hilstrom
|
Hinton
| Jaffer
| Johnston
| Kenney
(Calgary Southeast)
|
Laframboise
| Laliberte
| Lalonde
| Lavigne
|
Lebel
| Lill
| Loubier
| Lunn
(Saanich – Gulf Islands)
|
MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Manning
| Marceau
| Mark
|
Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Matthews
| Mayfield
| McDonough
|
McNally
| McTeague
| Ménard
| Meredith
|
Merrifield
| Moore
| Nystrom
| Obhrai
|
Pallister
| Paquette
| Penson
| Perron
|
Peschisolido
| Plamondon
| Proctor
| Reid
(Lanark – Carleton)
|
Reynolds
| Ritz
| Rocheleau
| Roy
|
Sauvageau
| Schmidt
| Skelton
| Solberg
|
Sorenson
| Spencer
| St - Hilaire
| Stinson
|
Stoffer
| Strahl
| Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
|
Toews
| Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean – Saguenay)
| Tremblay
(Rimouski - Neigette - et - la Mitis)
| Vellacott
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| Whelan
| White
(Langley – Abbotsford)
| White
(North Vancouver)
|
Yelich – 113
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Allard
| Anderson
(Victoria)
| Assad
|
Assadourian
| Augustine
| Bagnell
| Baker
|
Bakopanos
| Barnes
| Bélair
| Bellemare
|
Bennett
| Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Binet
|
Blondin - Andrew
| Bonin
| Boudria
| Bradshaw
|
Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
| Caccia
|
Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
| Carignan
|
Carroll
| Castonguay
| Catterall
| Cauchon
|
Chamberlain
| Charbonneau
| Comuzzi
| Copps
|
Cullen
| Cuzner
| DeVillers
| Dion
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
| Duplain
|
Easter
| Eggleton
| Eyking
| Farrah
|
Finlay
| Folco
| Fontana
| Fry
|
Gagliano
| Godfrey
| Goodale
| Graham
|
Grose
| Guarnieri
| Harb
| Harvard
|
Harvey
| Jackson
| Jennings
| Jordan
|
Karetak - Lindell
| Keyes
| Knutson
| Kraft Sloan
|
Lastewka
| LeBlanc
| Lee
| Leung
|
Lincoln
| Longfield
| MacAulay
| Macklin
|
Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
| Marcil
|
Marleau
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| McCallum
| McCormick
|
McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
| Mills
(Toronto – Danforth)
|
Murphy
| Myers
| Nault
| Neville
|
Normand
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
|
Owen
| Pagtakhan
| Paradis
| Patry
|
Peric
| Peterson
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
|
Reed
(Halton)
| Regan
| Richardson
| Robillard
|
Rock
| Saada
| Scherrer
| Scott
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
St - Jacques
| Steckle
| Stewart
| Szabo
|
Telegdi
| Thibault
(West Nova)
| Thibeault
(Saint - Lambert)
| Tirabassi
|
Tonks
| Torsney
| Ur
| Vanclief
|
Volpe
| Wappel
| Wood
– 131
|
PAIRED
Members
Asselin
| Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Coderre
| Kilgour
(Edmonton Southeast)
|
Lanctôt
| Manley
| Parrish
| Pettigrew
|
Picard
(Drummond)
| Venne
|
The Speaker: I declare the motion lost.
[English]
It being 5.55 p.m., the House will now
proceed to the consideration of private members' business as
listed on today's order paper.
* * *
1755
PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP) moved:
That, in the opinion of this
House, the government should work towards incorporating a
measure of proportional representation in the federal
electoral system, making use of a framework which includes:
(a) a report on proportional representation prepared by an
all-party committee after extensive public hearings; (b) a
referendum to be held on this issue where the question shall
be whether electors favour replacing the present system with
a system proposed by the committee as concurred in by the
House; and (c) the referendum may be held either before or
at the same time as the next general election.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to move a motion that would
take a look at changing the voting system in our country.
If we looked at the turnout in the last federal election
campaign, we would see that only 61% of the Canadian people
voted. It was an historic low. I was also surprised to see that
only 67% of the people voted in 1997. I think that was also
lower than we had ever seen before. During most previous
elections we have had 75% to 80% of the people participating at
the polls. I think the declining turnout reflects the growing
alienation people have toward politics in general and the voting
system in particular.
I put a motion before the House that asks the House of Commons
to consider the possibility of striking an all party committee
that would look at the various models of proportional
representation that could be mixed into our constituency member
system and have a measure of PR in the system itself.
Unfortunately the motion is not votable.
Last fall I had the same motion before the House. We had two
hours of debate at that time. Just before the third hour of
debate was to take place and a vote was to follow, the Prime
Minister called an election. That vote would have been the first
time the House of Commons had voted on proportional
representation since 1923.
The idea of PR in our system is one that is not very popular for
incumbent politicians. All of us were elected through the first
past the post electoral system. We were elected through a system
where members who get the most votes in their riding get to
become members of parliament. Some of us get here with well over
50% of the votes. Roughly half of the people get here with fewer
than 50% of the votes. In most parliaments we have members
elected with about a third of the votes, anywhere from 32% to
35%. At least half of us do not represent the majority of our
constituents.
1800
Most other countries in the world have a different kind of
electoral system whereby the number of seats in the assembly, the
house of commons or the parliament reflects the number of votes
in the country, state or province. In fact we are one of only
three countries in the democratic world with a population of more
than eight million people that use the pure, first past the post
system. The other countries are the United States and India.
Even in Britain, the mother of parliaments, under the Blair
government there has been a change where there is a blend of PR,
in the election of the Scottish members of parliament in the
Scottish parliament, in the Welsh parliament, and in Northern
Ireland. In fact, all members elected to the European community
parliament in Strasbourg from Great Britain are elected by
proportional representation.
According to the Jenkins commission, in the election after
next—there is a campaign going on in Britain right now—there
will probably be a mix of PR in the Westminster parliament
itself. The Blair government has committed to a referendum on
whether it should bring some PR into the British parliament.
Most of the countries that have left the first past the post
system and have gone to a system of proportional representation
have brought in a measure of proportional representation. Some
of them, like France, use what I call the majoritarian system. In
France, a member must have 50% of the vote to be elected.
[Translation]
In France, a candidate must have 50% of the vote or more to be
elected to the National Assembly. The French president must have
50% of the vote to be elected.
[English]
They have the two tours, the two different votes, one on a
Sunday and a second on the next Sunday. If a candidate does not
have 50% of the vote in the first selection, the two top
candidates run off. Most countries that do not have the first
past the post system do have a measure of PR.
Under our present system we have tremendous distortions. Today
we have a majority government elected with 41% of the votes and
holding roughly 60% of the seats. It has a constitutional right
to govern for some five years with all the powers that a
government has under our constitution today. In the last
parliament the government had a majority with only 38% of the
people supporting it, one of the lowest support levels of any
majority government in the history of the country. Sixty-two per
cent of the people voted for the opposition parties.
If we look at the history of our country in terms of the
parliaments, we find that since about 1921 or 1923 we have had
only three majority governments elected by the majority of the
people: Diefenbaker in 1958 and Mackenzie King twice during his
long tenure as prime minister. Brian Mulroney in 1988 came very
close with 49.9% of the vote or thereabouts.
We are electing in this country what are called fake majorities,
whereby a majority is elected by a minority of the people. When
we also factor in the turnout at elections, the last one being
61%, we find that only about 25% of the electorate actually voted
for the governing party. That was with a voters' list which was
not an enumerated list. Roughly one million people were left off
the electoral rolls.
As we can see, we elect a parliament that does not reflect how
the Canadian people actually vote or how the Canadian people
actually feel. This also happens among the opposition parties.
When I came back here in 1997 after being away for four years, I
found that not only did the government get 38% of the votes, the
Reform Party had 19% and the Conservative Party had 19%. Reform
had 60 seats and the Conservative Party had 20. The Bloc
Quebecois had 11% of the vote and our party had 11% of the vote.
There are 21 New Democrat MPs and 44 members of the Bloc
Quebecois. We have these distortions right across the board.
Looking across the way, one would think that every single person
in Ontario voted Liberal. The Liberals had 99 of 101 seats, I
believe, in the last parliament. In this parliament the Liberals
again have all but two seats in Ontario, with 101 or 103, despite
the fact that in 1997 the majority of Ontarians actually voted
for the NDP, the Conservatives and Reform, and despite the fact
that last November once again almost half of Ontarians voted for
the opposition parties. There are great distortions.
It is the same thing in the west. Historically in the vote in
the west the Liberal party is under-represented. We have all
these distortions right across the piece.
1805
There is a growing sense of alienation that our country is not
as democratic as it should be. If we were to bring in a measure
of proportional representation it would be a way of making sure
that nobody's vote is wasted. Every single vote would count in
the composition of the House of Commons. It would empower people
to make sure that their votes would count not just on election
night but during the whole four year period that the House of
Commons is in session. That is why I put the motion before the
House today that we look at the various methods of PR that might
be brought into fact in this country.
There are different methods of PR. In Israel there is basically
one constituency for the whole country. People vote for a list
and it is divided up on a proportional basis after the vote. I
do not think that is appropriate for our country.
In Germany there is what is called mixed member proportional,
where half the German members are elected riding by riding like
we do it in this country and the other half in accordance with
proportional representation. There are two ballots. Germans
first vote for their local member of parliament and then for
their party of preference to govern the state of Germany. It is
the proportion of the list votes, of the proportional votes, that
determines the number of members of parliament in their house of
commons. If one party receives 30% of the vote and less than
that percentage in terms of the elections for their own local
members of parliament, they are compensated for that from the
members elected by the PR system.
I think that is probably the more appropriate system to look at
if we are to have a measure of PR in Canada. In our country I
believe it should be done on a province by province basis. It is
important that Quebecers elect Quebecers in terms of proportional
representation and that Ontarians elect Ontarians. It can be
done in Saskatchewan, Manitoba, British Columbia and across the
piece. I think we could devise a unique Canadian system that
would be reflective of the country and good for the country as a
whole.
In Germany, half the members of parliament are elected by
ridings and half by the proportional or list system. In our
country we can look at what is best for us. We could have a
50:50 system. We could have any number from 15% to 40% elected
by the list and others elected riding by riding. We could look
at any kind of combination that might be good for and relevant to
our country.
The main thing to note is that Canadians are feeling so
alienated by our political system. They feel that their votes do
not count, that their votes are wasted.
If we did have a measure of PR in this country we would have
radically different voting patterns as well. I have now been in
10 election campaigns of my own. As we have campaigned
throughout Canada, how often have we heard stories of people
voting strategically? They say they would vote for our party if
it could win. They say they would vote for our party in a
particular riding but we could not win the particular riding. Or
they say they do not like such and such a party so they are
voting for another party to stop party A. In fact, I know
someone who is a member of a certain party who has not voted for
that party for 25 years because he is always voting for another
party he does not like. If we had a system of proportional
representation, he would be voting for his first choice.
Many Canadians now vote for what they call the lesser of two
evils. In terms of the way we try to strategize the impact of
our votes on the electoral system, when we vote for the lesser of
two evils we are still getting evil.
With PR we vote our preference. With PR our votes are reflected
in the House of Commons. As I said, every country in the world
with more than 8 million people, except for three, has abandoned
the first past the post system as being unfair and unjust.
People feel their votes are wasted. Most people vote for losing
candidates. People feel their votes do not count.
An hon. member: They're not voting.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom: They are not voting. They are turned
off in droves. That is very worrisome in terms of a dynamic
political and parliamentary system.
I think this is just one of the democratic reforms we will need
if we are to make this place more relevant for the Canadian
people. Parliament itself has to be reformed. The Prime
Minister's Office has far too much power.
1810
The Prime Minister's Office can appoint not only all the cabinet
members and all the senators but the head of every important
public agency in the country, including the judges in the supreme
court, the head of the military, the head of the police, the head
of state in our country and the head of state's representatives
in each of the provinces, the lieutenant-governors.
When there is a majority government here, almost dictatorial
powers rest in the hands of the Prime Minister of Canada. Surely
the time has come to reform the system, to make it more open,
accountable and democratic.
We just had a vote in the House a few minutes ago. We have
votes in the House every week. Government bills are never
defeated. Members cannot tell me that in the last 40 or 50 years
every government bill has been the right one or the proper one
for the country. We have a system of confidence votes whereby
members of parliament cannot vote their conscience or for the
wishes of their constituents or for what they think is best for
the country without voting non-confidence in the government of
the day.
We have to change those rules. The only votes that should be
confidence votes in the House of Commons are budget bills, the
throne speech or anything else that might be designated
confidence by the government itself. Everything else should be a
vote in which members have the freedom to vote how their
constituents feel. In other words, the confidence vote should
not be there.
We have the most handcuffed political and parliamentary system
in the world. In Britain even popular governments such as the
Blair government have lost several bills in the house of commons.
Margaret Thatcher, a very strong and popular prime minister at
one time, lost several votes in the house of commons when she was
the leader of a majority government. In this country it does not
happen.
Those are the kinds of changes we have to make. We need
stronger parliamentary committees and more independence. The
Speaker of the House of Commons is elected through a secret,
independent vote where the whips are not applied, but the chairs
of committees are not elected secretly. They are technically
elected but are appointed by the government itself.
These are the kinds of reforms we need to make this place more
relevant. We need parliamentary reform, but we also need
electoral and voting reform so that when people go to the polls
they can vote for their first preference and when the votes are
counted on election night the composition of the parliament would
reflect how the Canadian people voted.
I will conclude by saying that my motion today asks for an all
party committee to study the various kinds of proportional
representation that might be incorporated into our electoral
system. It also calls on that committee to report to parliament.
If parliament adopts the motion, it calls on parliament to put
the preferred model of PR to a referendum, whereby people can
choose between the model of PR recommended by parliament and the
status quo, the first past the post system. If the people decide
to change the voting system, we would have a system that I think
the people of this country would feel is more inclusive and equal
for each and every Canadian.
Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, for all the failings of the first past the post
electoral system, and they are considerable, there is
nevertheless a very powerful interest group that has a strong
incentive to keep that system in place. That interest group is
us.
All 301 members of parliament are here because the first past
the post system put us here. It may be that we will be able,
through the efforts of high-minded members such as the hon.
member for Regina—Qu'Appelle and others like him, to temporarily
build a majority within the House that is brave enough or
self-sacrificing enough to abandon the status quo for a future
that would return only some of us to this place, but it will be
an uphill battle. If we engage in uphill battles, we have to
make sure that as many factors as possible are on our side.
Today I want to make a specific proposal, not a proposal for a
specific electoral system to replace first past the post. I do
not want to endorse the multi-member proportional system or the
alternative ballot or multiple member districts or any of the
other versions of proportional representation that have been put
forward in the past. Each of these has its own unique merits.
Each has some demerits as well. Most significantly, each system
has a reasonably predictable impact on how each of the existing
parties would perform in a future election if the vote
distribution were to be the same as it was in last November's
general election.
If we try as a group to select a system in advance I can
guarantee that the system will be reviewed and analyzed by each
person and each party with one question foremost in mind: how
will this help me or how will this hurt me? If any part of the
tenuous coalition that we are today beginning to build decides
that partisan or personal considerations outweigh the merits of
the specific system being proposed, that in itself will likely
prove sufficient to kill the proposal.
1815
Today I am proposing that we engage as parliamentarians in a
three stage process to bring about the successful implementation
of genuine electoral reform.
First, we need to build a coalition of parliamentarians,
intellectuals and journalists behind the idea that first past the
post is not acceptable in a mature democracy and that some kind
of electoral reform is needed. This process is already partly
under way. Electoral reform has a prominent place in the
Canadian Alliance statement of policies and principles, which
reads:
To improve the representative nature of our electoral system, we
will consider electoral reforms, including proportional
representation, the single transferable ballot, electronic
voting, and fixed election dates, and will submit such options to
voters in a nationwide referendum.
Second, and here I am merely repeating my party's proposal on
the matter, we need to establish a process by which Canadians can
vote directly on the question of electoral reform. However I do
not favour a single referendum. That would involve putting a
single model of electoral reform on the ballot and letting voters
choose between it and the status quo.
Instead I recommend a referendum to authorize the striking of a
commission and the holding of a second referendum on the findings
of the commission. The commission could contain members of all
parties or it could contain experts and individuals of undoubted
integrity and impartiality. Its mandate would be to select three
or perhaps four alternative models which could be presented to
the Canadian electorate in a second referendum.
The third stage of the process would be the holding of the
second referendum that had been mandated by the first. In the
second referendum the electorate would be presented with a
preferential ballot on which each voter would rank the proposed
models in order of preference. If one model had the support of a
majority of voters on the first count of the ballots, it would
become the new electoral system of Canada.
If no model were chosen on the first count, the least preferred
model would be removed from the table and all ballots in which it
had been the preferred model would be recounted and redistributed
according to the second preferences on those ballots. This
process would continue until one model had obtained at least half
the total votes cast.
Such a process would ensure a consensus result. The system
finally chosen might not be the ideal preference of most voters,
but it would at least be a system which very few people had found
to be their least favourite choice or totally unsuitable.
To be on the safe side, the existing first past the post system
should be one of the alternatives that voters could select on
their preferential ballots. This would ensure that even if the
commission had done its job poorly and selected a range of
entirely unacceptable options, the worst that could happen would
be a return to the status quo.
Such a process would produce a majority in favour of change.
What would the new electoral process look like in the end?
Frankly I do not know. That is the whole point. I can support
the process. The member for Regina—Qu'Appelle can support it,
as can members on all sides of the House as long as each of us is
confident in the wisdom of the people and hopeful that the system
we prefer will at some future date get a fair hearing.
One of the great philosophers of the past century, John Rawls,
wrote in his book, A Theory of Justice, of the
impossibility of achieving consensus on moving forward to a just
society as long as participants in the process know who the
winners and losers will be. He proposed a thought experiment in
which each person's existing position within society was hidden
from view behind what Rawls referred to as a veil of ignorance.
In such a situation all would endorse a new and more just state
in an improved society because everybody would have a greater
possibility of being a net winner than of being a net loser.
If we hope to succeed at changing our system of electing
representatives to this place, we need to emulate Rawls' model.
We need to place the final outcome behind the Rawlsian veil and
move forward, certain only of the fact that what will be produced
in the end will be better and more beneficial for the country
than what we have today.
* * *
1820
PRESENCE IN GALLERY
The Deputy Speaker: I ask hon. members to take note
that in the gallery we have a very special group of visitors who
communicate by way of sign language. On your behalf, I say
welcome to the House of Commons and thank them for coming to
visit us. We wish them all very well.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
* * *
PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION
The House resumed consideration of the motion.
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
Canadians are justly proud that their country has one of the most
stable and democratic political systems in the world. It is a
model for many countries.
This has not happened on its own. Rather, it is the result of
the commitment of Canadians from every region to ensuring that
all citizens can express opinions on important issues and cast
votes for the candidate of their choice. To translate this
commitment into reality we have developed an electoral system
which provides the flexibility needed to keep up with changes in
our very dynamic country.
Of course, even the best system has its critics. It is natural
that from time to time people and groups will come forward with
suggestions for improving our system. Today's private member's
motion, with its call for the introduction of a new electoral
system based on proportional representation, is a good example of
this. The Green Party of Canada has also brought a challenge
before the courts to look into the same issue.
If I may, I will take a few minutes to discuss some aspects of
the motion. I will discuss how it might impact on Canadians and
why it arguably represents a risky gamble which might not be
warranted under present circumstances.
To begin with, it is important to note that proportional
representation is not a new idea. It has been tried in various
forms in a number of countries over the years with varying
degrees of success. It is currently used in one form or another
in a number of countries, most notably France, Germany, Israel,
Ireland and New Zealand.
While all these systems fall under the heading of proportional
representation, they vary enormously and use very different
approaches. Some use a two ballot runoff system where marginal
candidates are eliminated in the first round of voting. Others
have true proportional representation systems where the entire
country is treated as one constituency and members are selected
from party lists based on the percentage of the popular vote
received by the parties. Others have mixed systems where some
members are chosen on the basis of first past the post contests
while others are chosen from party lists.
This is a complex situation involving many different
alternatives, each with its own advantages and disadvantages.
While proponents of the system claim it leads to better
representation, particularly of minorities and regions, and that
it encourages higher voter turnout, the experience of those using
proportional representation suggests there can be negative
impacts as well.
For example, proportional representation can lead to more
minority governments. It can make governing more difficult,
increase political instability and force parties to engage in
lengthy political deal making to cobble together coalitions with
very different interests.
As well, small one issue parties can sometimes find itself in
the position of king maker which may allow it to force its own
agenda on the nation as a whole. Proportional representation
also sometimes gives a voice to extremist groups which would have
been shut out in the normal course under a first past the post
system.
Some countries have found that proportional representation can
exacerbate regional differences and cleavages within a society
and make it more difficult to reach national consensus on
important issues. That could be particularly true of Canada
where there exist and have always existed huge differences
regionally, culturally, linguistically and religiously.
Finally, some countries have found that the use of party lists
in selecting members of legislatures can strengthen the power of
the unelected party insiders responsible for deciding who will be
on the lists and in what order of precedence.
In Canada a proportional representation system could involve a
change to the provisions in our constitution which require that
provinces be proportionally represented in the House of Commons.
One of the strengths of our current electoral system is that
Canadians are represented at the constituency level by a specific
member of parliament. This provides a specific point of contact
for Canadians at the constituency level.
In other words, our current system ensures that members of
parliament must be in ongoing contact with specific groups of
Canadians.
1825
Clearly, this is a difficult and complex issue where caution
might be urged. Because of this and the fact that the issue is
currently before Canadian courts in a constitutional challenge,
it is my view that it would be unwise to go forward with the
proposal shown in the private member's motion.
In the meantime however, this is not to say that no action
should be taken. There are always many things that can be done
now and in the future to improve the functioning of our existing
electoral system. This was demonstrated recently by the passage
in the House of a new elections act. As well, the chief
elections officer will lay his report on suggested amendments to
the Canada Elections Act before parliament this fall, and a
committee will study and discuss these recommendations.
In conclusion, I commend the very experienced member moving the
motion for his demonstrated and continuing commitment to
improving Canada's electoral system. It is a commitment I hope
that is shared by all members in the House and by the government.
I urge him and other members to work within the House as we all
seek new ways of ensuring that our electoral system can continue
to do the best possible job of serving Canadians.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, it is my pleasure to take part in the debate on Motion
No. 21, presented by the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle, which reads
as follows:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should work
towards incorporating a measure of proportional representation in
the federal electoral system, making use of a framework which
includes: (a) a report on proportional representation prepared
by an all-party committee after extensive public hearings; (b)
a referendum to be held on this issue where the question shall be
whether electors favour replacing the present system with a
system proposed by the committee as concurred in by the House;
and (c) the referendum may be held either before or at the same
time as the next general election.
I will have occasion a little later to come back to each of the
points of this motion, but first, we must, as the
parliamentary secretary to the government House leader has said,
acknowledge the dedicated continuing commitment and consistency
of the ideas of our colleague from Regina—Qu'Appelle. For a
number of years, he has regularly raised in the House the need to
reform the Canadian electoral system.
Why should we reform it? For a number of reasons. First,
intrinsically speaking, our first past the post system has a
number of advantages to it. The advantage for voters is they can
identify directly with the person they elect, to get any
jurisdictional problem that may arise dealt with by the elected
member.
The system has a number of minor anomalies as well. It can lead
to certain distortions, to certain problems that may be due to
the fact that the candidate elected is the one receiving the most
votes.
This is not, however, an absolute majority. Very often an MP
can get elected with, who knows, 38%, 40% or 42% of the votes.
Thus the majority of the people in the riding will have voted for
a candidate other than the person who will be representing them
in parliament for four years.
Beyond the intrinsic nature of our political system, our
electoral system, there are certain things that have to be
acknowledged. On many occasions during the various debates in
this House, particularly those involving the hon. member for
Regina—Qu'Appelle and the hon. member for Halifax, when I have
had the opportunity to speak to this matter, I have stressed the
point that, despite the efforts of the election officials and by the
chief electoral officer to make voting more accessible, we are
forced to conclude to our great surprise, and I must add that
this is cause for concern, that voting is on a downward spiral.
There is a downward trend. Fewer and fewer people seem
interested in public affairs and the electoral process.
1830
This must be of concern to us, because in a democracy,
regardless of our efforts to make voting more accessible, fewer
and fewer people are exercising their right to vote. This has to
be a cause of concern.
Obviously, there are most certainly grounds for a parliamentary
committee to address the matter.
In the coming months, following the tabling of the chief
electoral officer's report dealing with the last election and
containing his recommendations, we will have the opportunity to
consider the advisability of reforming our electoral system
to better meet the expectations of the public.
This time, I hope the government will be more willing to make
in depth changes to our electoral system.
Let us now go back to the motion put forward by the hon. member
for Regina—Qu'Appelle. The motion specifically refers to a
system of proportional representation.
At first glance, the motion seems to be somewhat restrictive.
The member for Regina—Qu'Appelle himself talked earlier about
implementing a two vote electoral system, which would ensure that
any candidate who is elected in a riding got the majority of the
vote. However that does not seem to be one of his major concerns, at
least from what we see in the motion now before the House.
That might somewhat limit the scope of any debate we could have
on the reform of the Canadian electoral system.
Of course, I find the suggestion to set up an all party
committee to consider the issue quite attractive. However we
already have the Standing Committee on Procedure and House
Affairs that would normally deal with such an issue.
Perhaps we could then go through the Standing Committee on
Procedure and House Affairs or a special committee struck for the
occasion.
We now wish to pass reforms following a referendum, during which
electors, citizens of Canada and of Quebec would be asked to
vote on the model defined by the committee charged with examining
the matter.
I think that the Canadian Alliance member made it clear that we
would also have to reflect on the referendum process used to
approve the model proposed by the Standing Committee on Procedure
and House Affairs.
Here again, I find that the framework given us here is, in
essence, relatively limiting because the desire seems to be to
propose only the model which would be defined by the committee
charged with examining this matter. We presume right off the bat
that the model proposed would be proportional representation.
In closing, I wish to address one final point. The referendum
in question should take place before or at the same time as the
next general election. We obviously have no objection whatsoever
to this last recommendation.
Let us return briefly to the issue of the referendum. One of
the concerns we should have as members of this federal parliament
is to recognize the federal nature of this country, a federation
composed of very different provinces. Therefore, in the event
that we go ahead with a system of proportional representation, we
must ensure that we take this federal nature of Canada into
account, both in the results of the referendum and in the
implementation of a proportional system.
This motion, which refers to a proportional system, has already
been debated in the House, at which time the member for Laval
Centre laid out the position of our party most eloquently.
1835
We said at the time that, because of the current system's
limits and despite its benefits, the introduction of a proportional
component could ensure better representation for minority
groups, as I always say when we debate this issue, which would be
an improvement over the present situation.
I am thinking about groups such as cultural communities, the
disabled, women and also young people, who are underrepresented
in parliament.
Such a system would also better reflect the various ideologies
found in our society, which are not well represented here.
Indeed, people who vote for small parties often have the
impression that their vote is lost because is it very unlikely
that a candidate for a small party will be elected to
parliament.
The introduction of a proportional component would give small
parties the opportunity to be represented in parliament, so
democracy in general could benefit from their input.
Incidentally, this may prevent the distortions inevitably
brought about by the current system where, for example, with only
38% or 40% of the votes, a government, and specifically a Prime
Minister holds in his hands 100% of the power over a certain
period.
This could also further greater co-operation between the various
political parties represented in parliament and prevent that
system enhancing confrontation and antagonism.
Or course, we have to recognize that, despite all that, a pure
proportional representation system or one with a proportional
representation component has some drawbacks, notably the
political instability associated with pure proportional
representation systems and also the creation of two classes of
members in a system with a proportional representation component.
For all these reasons, I would say that the motion before us is
very interesting. It has some limits, and it is unfortunate that
we do not have the opportunity to vote on the motion to follow up
on the very commendable intentions that we have heard today
in the House.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[English]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, after
full and comprehensive consultations with all parties in the
House, I think you would find consent for the following motion
which would propose an amendment to the first report of the
Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration tabled
yesterday. I move:
That the first report of the Standing Committee on Citizenship
and Immigration, tabled on Monday, May 28, 2001, be amended by
adding the following amendment to clause 94:
(a) by adding after line 10 on page 39 the following: “(b.1) in
respect of Canada, the linguistic profile of foreign nationals
who became permanent residents;”
(b) by replacing lines 22 to 24 on page 39 with the following:
“any; (e) the number of persons granted permanent resident
status under subsection 25(1), and (f) a gender-based analysis of
the impact of this act”.
The Deputy Speaker: Does the House give its consent for
the parliamentary secretary to table the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Deputy Speaker: Is it the please of the House to
adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Motion agreed to)
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[English]
PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION
The House resumed consideration of the motion.
Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, PC): Mr.
Speaker, I look forward to taking part in this debate. I want to
congratulate the member from Regina—Qu'Appelle, who is almost my
seat mate now with the close proximity, on this issue. I know he
has spent a lot of time on this.
For the viewing public to understand what the motion is, it
states:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should work
toward incorporating a measure of proportional representation in
the federal electoral system, making use of a framework which
includes: (a) a report on proportional representation prepared by
an all-party committee after extensive public hearings; (b) a
referendum to be held on this issue where the question shall be
whether electors favour replacing the present system with a
system proposed by the committee as concurred in by the House;
and (c) the referendum may be held either before or at the same
time as the next general election.
1840
Again, I commend the member for this. It is very insightful. I
know the member spent a lot of time on this.
By the way, the other day we were stranded together at the
Ottawa airport heading east to Atlantic Canada. With the way the
air service was to that part of the country, we were both delayed
by six or eight hours. However the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle
was on his way to Prince Edward Island to speak to students at
the University of P.E.I. on this very subject. Although he was
late and did not arrive until something like 10 o'clock at night,
they waited for him. He gave his speech and had a number of
interviews with the P.E.I. press on this very topic.
The reason I mention that is I was able to pull something off
the Internet today regarding P.E.I., what it is doing and how it
is responding to some of these new ideas floating around on
proportional representation.
The headline reads that P.E.I. is now investigating proportional
representation. It states that Prince Edward Island's chief
electoral officer says he hopes to have some options on
proportional representation ready later this year. It speaks of
a legislative committee on the elections act which has tabled a
report in the legislature. Therefore P.E.I. is looking at the
situation and how it can be improved.
One of the things I point out is that in P.E.I. the ruling party
is the PC Party. I guess I should not be the one arguing with
the success of the Conservative Party in P.E.I. However the fact
is it has 96% of the seats, and received about 58% of the vote in
the last election. The Liberal Party and the NDP received about
42% of the vote between them, but only one opposition seat in the
P.E.I. legislature. I think that points out quite effectively
the problem with our system as it now exists.
I only have to look at my home province of New Brunswick. In
1987 Premier McKenna won every single seat in New Brunswick. He
won 57 out of 57 seats, yet received less than 60% of the vote.
The Conservative Party at the time received somewhere in the area
of 40% of the vote, but did not elect one single member to the
New Brunswick legislature. If we asked Frank McKenna what one of
his biggest handicaps was as a premier, it was the fact that he
held all the seats. How does one practise democracy in a forum
where one holds all the cards?
I will point out how our party has suffered under that system.
Let us go back to the election of 1993. Of course, Mr. Speaker,
as you well know, I was part of the class of '88 as were you.
The only difference was, you won your election and I did not.
The Conservative Party went from the party of power to having two
seats on the opposition side.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom: At least you had gender parity.
Mr. Greg Thompson: Incidentally, the member has so much
information that he wants to throw out that he can hardly resist.
However I hope I touch on some of the things that we spoke about
privately.
In 1993 the Conservative Party had approximately the same number
of votes as the Bloc. The Bloc sent 54 members to the House of
Commons with the same number of votes that sent only two
Conservative members in all Canada to the House.
The 1997 election is another example of how the system has to be
fixed, changed or modified in some fashion. The then Reform
Party had within 100,000 votes, the same number of votes the
Conservative Party had.
1845
Yet in 1997, if memory serves me correctly, the Reform Party
sent approximately 60 members to the House of Commons and the
Conservative Party sent only 20. Although we received
approximately the same number of votes within 100,000 or so, the
Reform Party had 40 more seats in the House of Commons. So on
the story goes.
Let us take a look at British Columbia. In its recent election
of a week or so ago the NDP sent three members to the
legislature. The governing Liberals who won the election had
approximately 56% of the vote but again some 90% of the seats.
The system in some ways is patently unfair.
Not to be unkind to the Liberal Party and the government of the
day, the truth is there are many members on that side of the
House and on this side of the House, to be fair, who are sitting
here with far less than 50% of the vote. In the last parliament
nationally the Liberal Party received about 39% of the vote and
formed the government. Clearly over 60% of Canadians voted
against the very party that formed the government. It simply
means that the system has to be examined and changed.
We can look at many examples around the world where the system
has been changed and is working quite well. The problem in
Canada is that once a party forms the government there is
reluctance on the part of that prime minister and the government
to change the system. Why would they change a system that is
working in their favour? Hence the problem.
We cited the case in P.E.I., of which the hon. member for
Regina-Qu'Appelle is quite aware. It has gone through successive
elections where this has happened and now the Conservatives are
the beneficiaries of a system which hurt them in two previous
elections. This flip-flopping back and forth in some sense hurts
all of us because it basically destroys what democracy is all
about.
We support the member's initiative. It is thought provoking.
This is a place where new ideas have to be brought in, where new
ideas have to be encouraged. We have to examine better ways of
doing things.
I cannot speak for the Prime Minister, but the downside of the
motion is that I do not expect the Prime Minister will want his
caucus to support it or his party to support it. The truth is
that they are in power and I guess the intent of the game
politics is to ensure that they continue to keep power.
In conclusion we support the member. We support the initiative.
I look forward to debating the issue and fleshing out the details
as we go along.
Mr. Clifford Lincoln (Lac-Saint-Louis, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, in a sense the debate points to the weaknesses of our
system in regard to private members' bills and motions. It
underlines very clearly that the system needs a basic reform
because of the anomaly of finding today that we are debating a
motion which is not votable and will die in a few minutes when
before the election the same motion was deemed votable by another
committee and was debated fully until acceptance or rejection.
Perhaps we should reflect upon why the same motion is votable one
day and non-votable today.
1850
I have a lot of reservations about strict proportional
representation because of the instability it has caused in so
many countries where it has been tried as a pure system. I also
have reservations about a referendum that would decide on a
question with either a yea or nay without a huge amount of study
as to what is the best system.
I congratulate the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle for bringing
the motion before us. I wish it was votable because I believe
these fundamental questions should be debated and studied by us.
I believe that for us to say our present system is the best of
them all without looking at all the others and finding out what
improvements can be made is short term. We should not close our
eyes to possible improvements that could make our democratic
process far more effective and far better for Canadians at large.
The members before me have quoted obvious examples. In the last
B.C. election three New Democrats were elected but no Green Party
members were elected in spite of having gathered 12% of the vote.
B.C. now has a government with all the seats except three. This
obviously will create problems because a government cannot govern
without an effective opposition to put pressure on it to perform
over the years.
We also have the example of New Brunswick and of our own party.
Although I rejoice in that, when I look at it objectively and
fairly I have to admit that it was a quirk of history which gave
us most of the seats in the province even though we did not get a
majority percentage of the votes.
I look at what the Australians have done and admire them for
their grit, daring and courage in having looked at different
systems. They have realized that first past the post is not the
perfect system. They have devised a system where the person who
wins truly wins an overall majority.
I look at various European nations that have tried different
systems and have decided that pure proportional representation
does not quite work but have adopted a mixed system of runoffs
and different types of proportional representation systems. Today
certain countries in Europe, such as Germany, Finland and France
are showing very stable democracies and all have various segments
of their populations duly represented by elected representatives.
I wish the motion had been made votable because I would have
voted for it. I believe we must study these questions. During
this quiet debate I felt there was a consensus or a feeling among
us that nobody had the perfect answer but that everybody wanted
to seek out a way to make democracy fairer and more workable.
I congratulate the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle. I invite him
to bring his motion back to the House but to perhaps leave out
the referendum and strict proportional representation. Perhaps
he could look at fixed term elections every four years. I wish
he would bring it back because I for one would love to vote on it
and have the matter studied further.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom: Mr. Speaker, I want to follow two
themes in conclusion. First, I thank the member for
Lac-Saint-Louis for his remarks. I had exactly the same motion
before the House last fall and it had been deemed votable. We
had two hours of debate and were about to have a third hour when
the Prime Minister called the election.
Since the election there has been growing popularity in looking
at the idea of PR. A court case has been launched by the Green
Party and it is now before the courts. However, all of a sudden
the private members' committee decided not to make the motion
votable even though it is exactly the same motion as the one I
introduced last fall. This motion too will die in about four
minutes time.
1855
I appeal to the House to look at the idea behind this. All the
motion is asking is that we strike an all party committee to look
at the various models of proportional representation or various
measures that could be mixed into our system. It does not call
for a pure system of PR but leaves it very wide open. This all
party committee could hold public hearings to look at improving
our electoral system.
At the end of the process, if we agree in parliament, we would
go to the Canadian people in a referendum with our
recommendations and the status quo so that they could choose
between the two. The people would be sovereign and would choose
want they want to do, as they did in New Zealand a few years ago.
That is all the motion calls for.
I hope we could look at new ideas. It is a radical new idea in
the country but we as parliamentarians should be looking at new
ideas and new ways to do things.
There is a national organization called Fair Vote Canada which
is trying to organize across the country a push on voting reform
and proportional representation. It is not trying to push a
particular model but a principle of having a system where the
people's votes are accurately reflected in the House of Commons
so that we do not get the great distortions we have had over the
years.
The last thing I want to say is that we may have some initiative
on the provincial level. I was in Prince Edward Island three
weeks ago, as the member for Fredericton said, and I met with
Premier Binns. I wish to commend him publicly. They are looking
now at bringing in a blend of PR in Prince Edward Island. A
legislative committee there recommended some options. The chief
electoral officer of Prince Edward Island is saying that he hopes
to have some options for proportional representation ready later
this year.
The last four election campaigns in Prince Edward Island
resulted in very lopsided parliaments. In three of those four
elections there were only one or two members of the opposition.
Today there is only one member despite the fact that 42% of the
people voted for the opposition parties. I was there for their
question period. There was one Liberal member in opposition to
the leader asking question after question for over half an hour.
That kind of system does not function properly.
Premier Binns has made Canadian history by being the first
premier in the first province, just like it was a cradle of
Confederation, to bring in a blend of PR. My conversation with
the premier has led me to believe that he is very sincere about
putting the question to the people of Prince Edward Island in a
referendum as to whether they want to try a blend of proportional
representation.
We have so many distortions. In the last provincial election in
Quebec, Jean Charest and the Liberals got more votes than Lucien
Bouchard and the Parti Quebecois, yet Bouchard formed a majority
government. In my own province of Saskatchewan, Roy Romanow of
my party got 38% of the vote and the opposition Saskatchewan
Party got 39% of the vote, yet Mr. Romanow formed a majority
government. In British Columbia five years ago, to show I am not
partisan because it is not a partisan issue, the provincial NDP
led by Glen Clark got fewer votes than the opposition Liberals,
yet Glen Clark formed a majority government.
I could go on and on about these great distortions but the time
has arrived for us to do something about them. I will keep on
pursuing this matter. All I am saying is that we should set up
an all party committee to look at the various models that might
be relevant to our country and to design in the end a unique
Canadian model that would be good for Canada, that would be more
inclusive, empowering, democratic and accountable. Part of that
model, I say to my friend across the way, is a fixed election
date. I believe in that and I always have. We need
parliamentary reform to make our country more democratic, more
inclusive and more accountable.
The debate has now died. I appeal to all members on all sides
of the House, because of the alienation people toward the
political process, to consider in the future an all party
committee to look at the important area of voting reform. I
thank members for their participation.
The Deputy Speaker: The time provided for the
consideration of private members' business has now expired. As
the motion has not been designated a votable item, the order is
dropped from the order paper.
ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
[English]
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to
have been moved.
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, PC): Mr.
Speaker, again I am back on the topic of Lancaster Aviation and a
contract awarded to it by the Government of Canada. I have some
concerns which I have put to the Minister of Public Works and
Government Services and the Minister of National Defence on many
occasions in the House.
1900
There are many unanswered questions on this file. For the
benefit of the interested Canadians who are watching tonight, I
am referring to the selling of surplus military equipment, spare
parts, under a contract awarded to Lancaster Aviation. It won
that contract under competition. It was a tendered contract. It
went from selling spare parts to selling Challenger aircraft. In
addition it sold 40 Huey helicopters.
How could it go from selling spare parts to selling helicopters
and Challenger jets? We are not talking about nickel and dime
items. We are talking about assets worth hundreds of millions of
dollars. When we examine the sale of the Challenger aircraft, by
all accounts they were sold for less than 50% of their value. How
could that be allowed to happen?
It is the same situation with the helicopters. There have been
allegations of kickbacks within the department in terms of how
the contract was let and how Lancaster Aviation was allowed
without tender to sell these aircraft. Where did the aircraft
end up? To whom do they now belong?
We know that the Government of Canada at last count had about
$100 million in surplus inventory that left the plant owned by
Lancaster Aviation in Milton, Ontario, only to wind up in
Florida. Those parts are now in a warehouse owned by a convicted
felon who owns a company by the name of Airspares Incorporated.
I am not making this up as I go along. I can quote from a story
in the Ottawa Citizen of May 4 of this year talking about
Mr. McFliker, the man who owns Airspares. He is now awaiting
sentencing on drug trafficking, international transportation of
women for prostitution and money laundering.
What recourse do we have to that military equipment now sitting
in a warehouse in Florida owned by a convicted felon? That is
the bottom line. Why was that equipment allowed to leave Canada?
Once the individual is sentenced, will we be able to get the
equipment back?
Who is watching this man? Why would something like this be
allowed to happen in Canada? Where is due process? How was a
convicted felon allowed to get into a contractual agreement with
a Canadian company, putting Canadian assets at risk? With that I
rest my case.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Public
Works and Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to respond. Lancaster Aviation won competitive contracts
in 1997 and again in 2000 for the disposal of surplus aerospace
assets, not simply spare parts as the member alleges. Allegations
that the contract to dispose of the Twin Huey helicopters and
Challenger aircraft were sole sourced are also false. They were
competitively bid.
The 1997 RPF also contemplated special project sales such as
planes. When such a need arises the process calls for an
amendment to the contract to legally bind the parties. That is
exactly what we did with the sale of the helicopters and the
Challenger aircraft.
Through Lancaster Aviation the government sold eight Challenger
aircraft to DDH Aviation of Fort Worth, Texas, for approximately
$30 million. The sale was a result of a competitive tender
issued by Lancaster Aviation. These aircraft did not have civil
certification. Nor were they outfitted for executive use. As
such they were in need of extensive modifications.
1905
As for the assets being warehoused in Florida, I reiterate once
again that Lancaster Aviation is using and renting that facility
in Florida strictly for warehousing purposes. Lancaster Aviation
is solely responsible for marketing the sale of assets. The
assets are in Florida because that is where the market is and
that is where the sales are taking place.
The DND assets are not in danger as the member alleges. The
assets are the property of the Department of National Defence and
are only in the custody of a contractor. Lancaster Aviation is
responsible for the safekeeping of the assets and is liable for
any losses. No parties other than the crown have any rights to
those assets.
I think that shows the assets are not at risk. Even though
there may be allegations against somebody out there, our assets
are not in danger.
EMPLOYMENT
Mr. Loyola Hearn (St. John's West, PC): Mr. Speaker, my
issue is with the Minister of Human Resources Development. We
were discussing the summer career placement program. This year
the minister changed the rules of hiring under the program as it
relates to municipalities.
Until this year all non-profit sector groups could take on
students for the summer and it would not cost them anything. The
private sector would pay 50% of the wages. Municipalities would
pay the benefits, which would be a very small amount, but
generally they received practically full funding to hire
students.
This year for some reason the minister decided that
municipalities would be lumped in the same category as the
private sector. They in turn would pay half the wages of the
students who would be hired during the summer by the municipality
or any agency directly connected with the municipality.
When I asked the minister why she did it, she basically said
that it made sense because she could spread the money a lot
further. Instead of a municipality getting full funding for one
student, it could hire two students because it was contributing
half their wages.
That sounds very laudable. It would give more students the
opportunity to receive employment for the summer. However the
minister is forgetting that many municipalities throughout the
country are in no position at all to pay the cost of hiring
anybody.
The smaller municipalities in particular have been subjected to
downloading from the federal government to the provincial
governments and eventually to the municipal governments, to the
degree that many of them cannot afford to pay for the basic
services they provide right now and are in deficit positions.
Many small communities in rural Canada are trying to balance
their budgets by cutting back on services such as picking up
garbage and providing street lights. Consequently they have no
extra funding to hire students or anybody else, as I mentioned,
during the summer or at any time.
This means that many municipalities are taken off the hiring
list entirely. It did not solve any problem. It created a big
one. In many smaller communities the most responsible body, the
best organized body, is the municipality. Supervision and
organization of programs are usually done better by
municipalities than some of the other agencies.
This year in smaller communities in particular, and even in
larger ones, other non-profit groups have to pick up the slack
and hire the students. Nobody wins. The municipalities lose.
That is why we ask the minister to change her mind, to allow the
municipalities to hire students and to pay the full funding to
them to do that.
Ms. Raymonde Folco (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Human Resources Development, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I take great
pleasure in answering the question asked by the member for St.
John's West.
The summer career placement program is a program that provides
wage subsidies to employers in the private, public and not for
profit sectors to create career related summer jobs for students.
1910
Employers gain by hiring high school, college or university
students from 6 weeks to 16 weeks. Students benefit by gaining
career related summer work experience and by earning income to
further their education and thereby prepare for future entry into
the labour market.
The minister understands that some municipalities have raised
concerns about changes to wage subsidy levels under this year's
summer career placement program. The SCP program is very popular
and each year the total demand exceeds the total amount of funds
available.
[Translation]
Besides, in the riding of Laval West, which I represent in the
House of Commons, this program will have helped over 300 students
find gainful employment this summer.
[English]
Because the SCP program is so popular, the Government of Canada
looked at new ways of allocating SCP funds to help even more
students get summer jobs. That is why the public sector SCP wage
subsidy was changed to match the private sector SCP subsidy,
which is up to 50% of the provincial minimum wage.
To be fair to all applicants, we are treating public sector
employers the same as private sector employers. The difference
in wage subsidy to employers in the public sector could
potentially result in up to 1,400 additional students gaining
work experience through SCP this year.
Overall funding for the program will be at least the same as
last year, that is $90 million, which is expected to help over
50,000 young Canadians acquire work experience through the
program.
We encourage employers to hire summer students with or without
subsidies. All summer programs help to ensure that students gain
valuable, much needed workplace experience.
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: The motion to adjourn the House is now
deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly, this House stands
adjourned until tomorrow at 2 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order
24.
(The House adjourned at 7.12 p.m.)