37th Parliament, 1st Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 040
CONTENTS
Friday, March 30, 2001
| THE ROYAL ASSENT
|
1000
| The Speaker |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| FINANCIAL CONSUMER AGENCY OF CANADA ACT
|
| Bill C-8. Third reading
|
| Hon. Jane Stewart |
| Mr. Roy Cullen |
1005
1010
1015
| Mr. Richard Harris |
| THE ROYAL ASSENT
|
1025
| The Speaker |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| FINANCIAL CONSUMER AGENCY OF CANADA ACT
|
| Bill C-8. Third reading
|
| Mr. Richard Harris |
1030
1035
1040
1045
1050
1055
| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
| ALLISON FORSYTH
|
| Mr. Bernard Patry |
| SUDAN
|
| Mr. Keith Martin |
1100
| CAMERON HEIGHTS COLLEGIATE
|
| Mrs. Karen Redman |
| GOVERNMENT OF QUEBEC
|
| Mr. Guy St-Julien |
| CULTURE LINK
|
| Ms. Sarmite Bulte |
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Mr. Inky Mark |
| SOFTWOOD LUMBER
|
| Mr. Andy Savoy |
1105
| GOVERNMENT OF QUEBEC BUDGET
|
| Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral |
| CRIME PREVENTION
|
| Ms. Sophia Leung |
| HEALTH
|
| Mr. David Anderson |
| THE ENVIRONMENT
|
| Ms. Aileen Carroll |
| HEATING FUEL REBATE
|
| Mr. Dick Proctor |
1110
| LIBERAL PARTY
|
| Mr. Ghislain Fournier |
| GREAT LAKES
|
| Mr. John Maloney |
| HEALTH
|
| Mr. Gerald Keddy |
| SOFTWOOD LUMBER
|
| Mr. Mac Harb |
| HEALTH
|
| Mr. Garry Breitkreuz |
1115
| CANADIAN HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION
|
| Ms. Libby Davies |
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
| PRIME MINISTER
|
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
1120
| Mr. Grant McNally |
| Hon. Brian Tobin |
| Mr. Grant McNally |
| Hon. Brian Tobin |
| Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
1125
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| NATURAL RESOURCES
|
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
| Hon. Ralph Goodale |
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
| Hon. Ralph Goodale |
| PRIME MINISTER
|
| Right Hon. Joe Clark |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Right Hon. Joe Clark |
1130
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| AUDITOR GENERAL
|
| Ms. Cheryl Gallant |
| Hon. Maria Minna |
| Ms. Cheryl Gallant |
| Hon. Maria Minna |
| PRIME MINISTER
|
| Mr. Réal Ménard |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mr. Réal Ménard |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| MULTICULTURALISM
|
| Mrs. Betty Hinton |
1135
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| Mr. Richard Harris |
| The Speaker |
| NATURAL RESOURCES
|
| Ms. Anita Neville |
| Hon. Ralph Goodale |
| KYOTO PROTOCOL
|
| Ms. Monique Guay |
| Hon. Ralph Goodale |
| Ms. Monique Guay |
1140
| Hon. Ralph Goodale |
| MULTICULTURALISM
|
| Mr. James Moore |
| Hon. Hedy Fry |
| Mr. Jay Hill |
| Hon. Herb Gray |
| TRADE
|
| Mr. Svend Robinson |
| Hon. Pierre Pettigrew |
| NATURAL RESOURCES
|
| Mr. Joe Comartin |
| Hon. Ralph Goodale |
| LUMBER INDUSTRY
|
| Mr. Gerald Keddy |
1145
| Hon. Pierre Pettigrew |
| FRESHWATER EXPORTS
|
| Mr. Loyola Hearn |
| Mr. Denis Paradis |
| LUMBER INDUSTRY
|
| Mr. Andy Burton |
| Hon. Pierre Pettigrew |
| Mr. John Duncan |
| Hon. Pierre Pettigrew |
| Mr. Paul Crête |
1150
| Hon. Pierre Pettigrew |
| Mr. Paul Crête |
| Hon. Pierre Pettigrew |
| HEALTH
|
| Mr. Kevin Sorenson |
| Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
| Mr. Leon Benoit |
| Hon. Martin Cauchon |
| THE ENVIRONMENT
|
| Ms. Paddy Torsney |
| Mrs. Karen Redman |
1155
| MULTICULTURALISM
|
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
| Hon. Hedy Fry |
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
| Hon. Hedy Fry |
| VIRTUAL PARLIAMENT
|
| Mr. Stéphan Tremblay |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| SAGUENAY—LAC-SAINT-JEAN
|
| Mr. André Harvey |
| Hon. Martin Cauchon |
| HIGHWAYS
|
| Mr. Darrel Stinson |
1200
| Hon. David Collenette |
| GASPÉ REGION
|
| Mr. Jean-Yves Roy |
| Hon. Martin Cauchon |
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
| CANADIAN HUMAN RIGHTS TRIBUNAL
|
| The Speaker |
| ORDER IN COUNCIL APPOINTMENTS
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Procedure and House Affairs
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
1205
| INCOME TAX ACT
|
| Bill C-323. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Ted White |
| EMPLOYMENT EQUITY ACT
|
| Bill C-324. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Ted White |
| BROADCASTING ACT
|
| Bill C-325. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Ted White |
| ANTIPOVERTY ACT
|
| Bill C-326. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Réal Ménard |
1210
| PETITIONS
|
| Free Trade Area of the Americas
|
| Mr. Svend Robinson |
| McWatters Project
|
| Mr. Guy St-Julien |
| QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| FINANCIAL CONSUMER AGENCY OF CANADA ACT
|
| Bill C-8. Third reading
|
| Mr. Dick Proctor |
1215
1220
| Mr. Scott Brison |
1225
1230
1235
| Mr. Ken Epp |
1240
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
| Mr. Richard Harris |
1245
1250
| Mr. Paul Crête |
1255
1300
1305
1310
| Mr. Jean-Yves Roy |
| Mr. Réal Ménard |
1315
| Mr. Joe Comartin |
1320
| Mr. Ken Epp |
1325
| PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
1330
| HEPATITIS AWARENESS MONTH ACT
|
| Bill C-243. Second reading
|
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
1335
1340
| Mr. Yvon Charbonneau |
1345
1350
| GOVERNMENTS ORDERS
|
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACT
|
| Bill C-2—Notice of time allocation
|
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
| HEPATITIS AWARENESS MONTH ACT
|
| Bill C-243. Second reading
|
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
1355
1400
| Mr. Réal Ménard |
1405
1410
| Mr. Loyola Hearn |
1415
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
1420
| Appendix
|
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 040
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Friday, March 30, 2001
The House met at 10 a.m.
Prayers
THE ROYAL ASSENT
1000
[English]
The Speaker: Order, please. I have the honour to
inform the House that a communication has been received as
follows:
Government House
Ottawa
March 30, 2001
I have the honour to inform you that the Honourable Ian Binnie,
Puisne Judge of the Supreme Court of Canada, in his capacity as
Deputy of the Governor General, will proceed to the Senate
Chamber today, the 30th day of March, 2001, at 10:00 a.m., for
the purpose of giving royal assent to certain bills.
Yours sincerely,
Anthony P. Smyth
Deputy Secretary, Policy, Program and Protocol
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
FINANCIAL CONSUMER AGENCY OF CANADA ACT
Hon. Jane Stewart (for the Minister of Finance)
moved that Bill C-8, an act to establish the Financial Consumer
Agency of Canada and to amend certain acts in relation to
financial institutions, be read the third time and passed.
Mr. Roy Cullen (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to be here in this
crowded House to take part in the third reading debate on Bill
C-8, an act to establish the financial consumer agency of Canada
and to amend certain acts in relation to financial institutions.
I think we can all agree that the financial services sector
plays a critical role in the Canadian economy. It underpins all
other sectors in the economy by providing the means to channel
savings into investment, resulting in economic growth and wealth
creation.
[Translation]
The role the financial institutions play in the life of
Canadians is equally important. In fact, these institutions
protect Canadians' assets well and meet the needs of consumers
and businesses as far as major financing, purchases and
investments are concerned.
Let us not forget that half of Canadians are shareholders of our
financial institutions, either directly or indirectly, so this
represents an important source of revenue for Canadians now and
in the future.
[English]
As legislators, we have an important responsibility to encourage
the health of this sector. According to 1999 Statistics Canada
data, 863,000 Canadians were employed in the financial services
sector, including finance, insurance, real estate and leasing.
Canada's federal financial institutions operate within a
legislative and regulatory framework defined by parliament. These
legislative acts require the government to periodically review
this framework and to bring before parliament any amendments
needed to ensure that it remains current and relevant.
I would like to call the attention of the House to the four
fundamental principles that underpin the legislation and which
guided the government's decision making on the specific measures
in the policy paper “Reforming Canada's Financial Services
Sector”.
It was released to the public on June 25, 1999, as the
government's response to the MacKay task force report.
1005
The first principle is that banks, trust companies, credit
unions, insurance companies and other financial institutions must
have the flexibility to adapt to the changing marketplace and to
compete and thrive, both at home and abroad. Upholding this
principle is necessary if the financial sector is to maintain its
contribution to economic growth and job creation in the face of
increasing globalization and rapidly changing technology.
To this end the bill provides additional flexibility for banks
and insurance companies to organize themselves under a new
holding company option that would be available to them, thus
permitting them to explore opportunities to improve efficiency
and grow their businesses by reducing the regulatory burden,
among other things.
[Translation]
Similarly, we are raising the limits on widely held ownership of
financial institutions in order to permit the exchange of
considerable shares which is required for the conclusion of
strategic alliances and joint ventures. This important business
strategy is becoming increasingly common in other industries and
ought also to be available to Canada's financial institutions.
[English]
The bill substantially expands permitted investments for
financial institutions and makes these available to both the
holding company and the parent subsidiary structures.
The second principle guiding the bill stresses the importance of
competition. Specifically, we believe that vibrant competition
in the financial services sector is necessary to allow consumers
and businesses alike to benefit from a wide range of choice at
the best possible price. With this objective in mind, the
government is acting to remove unnecessary barriers for a bank
start-up. We want to encourage new entrants. To that end, we
are lowering the minimum amount of capital required to start a
bank to $5 million from $10 million.
We are also proposing a new three tier, size based ownership
regime that allows for the single ownership of small banks.
[Translation]
Banks with equity of $1 billion to $5 billion are also allowed
to be widely held, provided at least 35% of shares are widely
distributed among the public. There will, however, be no
restrictions on the ownership structure of small banks with
equity of less than $1 billion. These measures will make it
possible to increase competitivity in the banking sector and to
encourage new players.
[English]
Large banks with more than $5 billion in equity would continue
to be widely held. Furthermore, commercial enterprises would
also be allowed to establish new banks. This may be potentially
attractive to retail companies that already have a network of
stores or outlets.
The bill also includes measures to strengthen credit unions and
caisses populaires. It contains measures that could accommodate
their plans to restructure themselves in a way that reduces
structural fragmentation and increases efficiency. It also
provides the government with the regulatory flexibility to
respond to new initiatives that may be forthcoming from the
movement. The end result could be a stronger and more
competitive credit union movement in Canada, better placed to
challenge other financial service providers across the land.
We also propose to open up the Canadian payments system to life
insurance companies, securities dealers and money market mutual
funds. We believe that a broader range of participants in the
payments system would foster competition because these firms
would be able to offer services akin to chequing accounts.
[Translation]
Moreover, we will implement measures to align access rules for
foreign banks in Canada with those governing domestic banks, so
as to provide greater flexibility to foreign banks that wish to
settle in Canada.
All in all, these measures will promote competition in the
financial services sector, thus contributing to ensuring that
Canadians get the best possible deal from suppliers of financial
services.
1010
[English]
I know the House is interested in the third guiding principle
underpinning this legislation and that is to empower and protect
consumers of financial services.
To that end, this bill would provide better access to basic
services. It would allow us to specify in regulation what are
reasonable identification requirements for an individual to open
a bank account. The legislation also would provide regulation
making authority regarding the provision of a low cost account
and would oblige banks to follow a fair and reasonable process if
they decide to close a branch.
[Translation]
As for low fee retail deposit accounts, memoranda of
understanding have already been signed by the eight largest
banks. While such accounts may vary from bank to bank, they must
all comply with standards that will allow us to ensure that all
Canadians have access to an account at an affordable price.
[English]
The bill would also establish two new organizations to promote
and safeguard consumer interests in the financial sector. The
Financial Consumer Agency of Canada, or FCAC, would consolidate
related functions currently housed in Finance Canada, Industry
Canada and OSFI. This agency would uphold the consumer
protection provisions of our financial institution statutes,
monitor institutions' compliance with their pledges to
self-regulate, and provide consumer information and promote
consumer education about financial services.
The government would also work with financial institutions to
launch the new Canadian financial services ombudsman. This
office would provide an independent, objective and impartial
third party who would review complaints from individual consumers
and small business owners who believe that their financial
institution has treated them unfairly and have not been able to
resolve these matters with the management of the financial
institution.
However, we are also mindful that regulations are not without
cause, which brings me to the fourth and final guiding principle
underlying this bill.
We believe that our government should initiate improvements to
the safety and soundness of the sector, but we should also take
every opportunity to lighten the regulatory burden when we can.
Bill C-8 would do just that.
[Translation]
The bill before us today seeks to implement a streamlined
approval system for numerous operations that must be approved by
the superintendent.
We are also proposing to improve the payments system, to ensure
that the public participates more fully in the decision making
process, and to ensure that the standards, regulations and rules
of the CPA reflect the public interest.
[English]
The bill would also enhance the powers of the Superintendent of
Financial Institutions to deal with firms that do not meet the
regulatory requirements. It would also bolster the
superintendent's power to intervene in the affairs of a financial
institution that is heading for trouble. This would ensure that
the prudential safeguards for the financial system are consistent
with the new reality of stronger competition which we are trying
to bring about.
In conclusion, the measures embodied in the bill we are debating
today uphold and advance all four of the guiding principles I
have just enumerated.
Canada's financial sector has an excellent reputation. Our
financial institutions are extremely successful, both at home and
abroad. To retain this excellent reputation and to keep our
financial institutions strong, we need this new policy framework,
a framework for the future. We need it because it recognizes the
change around us, it permits our financial institutions to seize
new opportunities and it manages change for the benefit of all
Canadians.
I would like to thank the members of the finance committee and
the hon. members of the House for being very supportive of this
bill. I firmly believe that the measures proposed in this
legislation provide an important framework whereby we can move
forward together.
1015
Mr. Richard Harris (Prince George—Bulkley Valley, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I should like to start my debate by
saying how nice it is to see all the smiling faces of Liberals
across the way. I am sure they are anxious and eager to be here
today to discuss business they were unwilling to discuss
yesterday, serious issues that concern the House such as the—
The Speaker: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member.
THE ROYAL ASSENT
[English]
A message was delivered by the Usher of the Black Rod as
follows:
Mr. Speaker, The Honourable Deputy to the Governor General
desires the immediate attendance of this honourable House in the
chamber of the honourable the Senate.
Accordingly the Speaker with the House went up to the Senate
chamber.
1025
And being returned:
The Speaker: I have the honour to inform the House
that when the House went up to the Senate chamber the Deputy
Governor General was pleased to give, in Her Majesty's name, the
royal assent to the following bills:
Bill C-20, an act for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of
money for the public service of Canada for the financial year
ending March 31, 2001—Chapter No. 1.
Bill C-21, an act for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of
money for the public service of Canada for the financial year
ending March 31, 2002—Chapter No. 2.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
FINANCIAL CONSUMER AGENCY OF CANADA ACT
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-8, an
act to establish the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada and to
amend certain acts in relation to financial institutions, be read
the third time and passed.
Mr. Richard Harris (Prince George—Bulkley Valley, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, once again let me say how gratifying
it is to see so many government members in the House. We have
important business to discuss today, as we did yesterday when the
ranks were a little thin on the government side.
Members from all opposition parties attempted to discuss
important issues, such as the Shawinigate affair and the issue of
the junior minister of multiculturalism, issues for which the
Canadian people demand answers, and there was an absence of
response in the House, to put it kindly.
I am happy to be here on a Friday to discuss government
business, such as Bill C-8. I know you were waiting for me to
get back to that, Mr. Speaker. I wish government members,
including some of the cabinet ministers and the Prime Minister,
took their roles as seriously as we in the opposition take our
roles.
I listened to the presentation made by Parliament Secretary to
the Minister of Finance earlier. The Alliance Party will support
the bill because it would bring Canada's financial institutions
to a more progressive level.
1030
As we know, since the government took office in 1993 precious
little, if anything, was done to put Canada further ahead as a
progressive financial institution country despite calls from the
official opposition in the 36th parliament. We have stayed on
par with countries such as Mexico.
It has taken the government seven and a half long years to
realize that one of the most important sectors and pillars of our
economy is the financial institution sector which includes banks,
insurance companies, securities companies and credit unions. The
progressiveness of this pillar of our economy was lagging behind
all our global competitors, placing our institutions at a severe
competitive disadvantage. Why it took the government so long one
can only guess, but given its record over the past eight years I
suppose it was the status quo.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance said a
number of things with which we agree. However he did talk about
some things that left us rather confused, considering the motions
in amendment that were put by the official opposition and that
were voted down at report stage.
I will deal with statements made by the parliamentary secretary
and the Prime Minister, as well as those made by his colleagues,
indicating that the government wants to run its business in a
very open and transparent fashion so that Canadians, the official
opposition and other opposition parties can judge how it is
doing.
What the government did in reference to our amendment was ask
that the financial consumer agency report to the Standing
Committee on Finance on a permanent basis. The committee is part
of parliament, which includes all opposition parties and
government members. That is openness and transparency. Yet in
the bill it says that the agency would report to parliament
through the Minister of Finance.
Anyone who knows me knows that I am not cynical when it comes to
the government. What that may mean, though, is that the Minister
of Finance would allow only what he wants to report to parliament
out of the reports he gets from the financial consumer agency.
When it comes to Liberal governments, and the door is opened to
allow them to withhold certain information that they do not want
to be made public, we have seen time and time again that they
have taken every advantage of that opening.
A case in point is the current Shawinigate affair. The ethics
counsellor, who is supposed to be the watchdog of how cabinet
conducts its public and private business, reports directly to the
Prime Minister, the very person who appointed him to the job; in
other words his boss.
1035
There have been enough questions raised about this relationship.
The question of the year and maybe of the century is why would
Canadians and opposition members sit by when there are questions
about how the Prime Minister has conducted his private business
and his so-called blind trust.
Time and time again the Prime Minister has stood up and said
that the ethics commissioner, the guy that he hired and that he
authorized in that position, says that he is okay and that
everything was above board.
This is the same situation we have with the financial consumer
agency where it reports directly to the very person who will be
appointing them to that position. There is a bit of a perceived
conflict of interest.
Mr. Brian Fitzpatrick: A master-servant relationship.
Mr. Richard Harris: Yes, as my hon. colleague just said,
a master-servant relationship. That is simply not acceptable to
the official opposition nor to the other opposition parties. We
have since 1993 demanded that the government be open and
transparent. When the parliamentary secretary talks about the
openness and transparency in the bill, here is one area in which
he may be a stranger to the actuality of the relationship.
The government voted against the amendment which would have
allowed that openness and transparency.
The parliamentary secretary also made a statement saying that it
was the wish of the government, and it is in Bill C-8, that it
would lighten the regulatory burden wherever it could.
I refer to another amendment that the official opposition put
forward with regard to the payment system. The members of the
payment system said very clearly that they knew there were a set
of regulations and that they wanted to comply with them, but that
in the course of doing business, they now and again need to make
some rule changes to streamline their business in order to give
better customer service to the people using the system. They
said that their association wants to use the most unobtrusive
method within a framework. They asked, through the Canadian
Alliance, for the Minister of Finance to lay out a very clear and
transparent framework under which they could operate, one that
would be self-regulating and allow enough flexibility that they
would not have to report every single rule change as it occurred.
Having to do that is a regulatory burden that is unnecessary.
They wanted a clear and defined framework under which they could
operate, which is what is in the amendment, but the Liberal
government, despite wanting to lighten the regulatory burden
however it could, voted that amendment down.
My last point about the amendments that we put forward deals
with a statement made by the parliamentary secretary. He said
“Credit unions must have the flexibility to compete and thrive
at home and abroad”. How coincidental. Credit Union Central and
members of its association want to have the flexibility to
compete and thrive at home and abroad but it was not provided for
in Bill C-8. We knew how important that was to Credit Union
Central so we put forward an amendment respecting its wishes.
For a government that believes that credit unions must have the
flexibility to compete and thrive at home and abroad, as the
parliamentary secretary said, it voted against that amendment.
1040
These are three distinct areas where the government is saying
one thing yet doing another. Far be it for the government to say
one thing yet do another. I am hesitant to bring up the red book
wherein it promised to scrap, kill and get rid of the GST.
I will draw a comparison. During the election the Liberals went
door to door, doorstep to doorstep, and over fences into
backyards. They went to public meetings, to little restaurants
and coffee shops, and said that they hated the GST. They hated
it since the Tory government brought it in, and to show how much
they hated it, they said that if they were elected they would
kill that nasty GST. I know you would have been re-elected in
any case, Mr. Speaker, because those are words that you never
uttered.
Unfortunately the majority of Canadians believed that promise to
kill, scrap and abolish the GST and elected a Liberal government
in 1993. To their great surprise, the GST was neither scrapped,
killed nor abolished. There was a name change, though, in
Atlantic Canada where it is now blended and called HST. I am
comparing that to the Liberals' continuing readiness to say one
thing yet do another.
In those three areas the parliamentary secretary has been caught
up in his own words because the bill does not reflect some of the
things he said. We now have a bill that will give banks and
financial institutions an opportunity to become more competitive
at home and abroad. It will give them an opportunity to become
more efficient and flexible in their operations, with the
exception of the areas I outlined in the amendments the Liberal
government voted against. These were amendments members of the
financial sector wanted put through, but they were voted down.
Overall the bill would allow banks and financial institutions to
become more competitive, particularly in the global economy. Due
to the Liberal government's inaction over eight years, financial
institutions have lost ground in the global economy. Their
competitive position has gone down, so I am sure they will
welcome the bill.
While the financial services sector will have this progressive
bill to allow it to become more competitive, one wonders why the
Liberals have not addressed some other issues that equally need
to be recognized as areas where we are lagging behind.
As was reported in the news last night, the outdated medical
equipment in our hospitals needs to be recognized. There is even
talk about health dangers because some of the medical equipment
is old, outdated, and possibly becoming a danger to patients who
use it.
The government embarked on many new spending programs such as:
the millennium project, fountains, golf courses and any kind of
vote buying scheme that it could come up with. It has increased
spending every year on brand new programs. It has raised taxes
every year in the neighbourhood of $3 billion to $7 billion.
Yet there are areas of our country that are suffering because
the Liberals have not considered them important enough to make
them progressive, as they have finally done with Bill C-8 for
banks and financial institutions.
1045
I bring to the attention of the House the trouble farmers have
when they go to financial institutions to apply for financing.
Almost every farmer in Canada has either tried to get financing
or is considering doing so and is not able to. They cannot do so
because their farms are at risk, and their farms are at risk
because of the government's refusal to help them compete with our
American neighbours. U.S. farmers receive all kinds of subsidies
and assistance because their government recognizes the important
role agriculture plays in the United States.
Our government has refused to recognize Canada's agricultural
industry to the same extent that our biggest trading partner does
with its farmers. As a result, we are just an imaginary border
away. American agricultural products come into Canada and sell
at lower prices than we can produce them at in Canada. This is
because the government has failed to recognize the importance of
agriculture. It has failed to recognize the great disadvantage
our farmers have when competing with our trading partners in the
United States and abroad.
Mr. Brian Fitzpatrick: Golf courses are more important
than farmers.
Mr. Richard Harris: That is right. The government is
certainly willing to finance golf courses and hotels and highway
projects in the maritimes. One former cabinet minister from Nova
Scotia built a highway to nowhere for about $30 million. That
brought a bit of shame on to the government, but shame does not
last long with this government.
One need only look at the current situation with the junior
minister of multiculturalism who has brought shame, embarrassment
and dishonour to her office. The government has not recognized
that shame, embarrassment or dishonour. The Prime Minister and
the Deputy Prime Minister have stood in the House every day and
said she was sorry and that we on this side should recognize
that.
They said that one of our members had done something and
apologized and that they had accepted the apology. However there
is a difference. The minister of multiculturalism is still
sitting in her chair in the role of junior minister after giving
an unrepentant and half-hearted apology. Our member for
Edmonton—Strathcona is sitting in the backbenches after having
been duly disciplined.
Mr. Roy Cullen: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I do not like to interrupt the hon. member for Prince
George—Bulkley Valley, but I would like to know the relevance of
what he is speaking about. When we started this debate we were
discussing Bill C-8.
The Speaker: The parliamentary secretary is quite right.
I was seeking to draw the attention of the hon. member for Prince
George—Bulkley Valley to the bill. I know he has drawn several
parallels to various things, but this has gone so far off topic I
am not sure we can get it in parallel any more.
Mr. Richard Harris: Mr. Speaker, there is a direct
parallel here. I was comparing the way the government treats
farmers to the way it treats financial institutions. The
government feels that the way it treats our financial
institutions is important, and I agree. However it has forgotten
about farmers. It has forgotten about how its lack of interest
has affected our farmers. It has no shame.
We are happy that the government has put forward legislation to
allow banks to develop their holding company structures. That
will be progressive.
We are also happy that we have a competitive, thriving and
vibrant insurance industry in Canada. We are happy that the
government has seen the wisdom of disallowing banks from
retailing insurance products through their branches. That day
may come, but the insurance industry now has a five year window
to prepare for any impact it might cause.
1050
Alliance members also know there is a competitive, vibrant auto
leasing industry in Canada. We know that Canadian consumers who
are considering buying automobiles can get leasing from a number
of different areas, in some cases down to 0.9%, 0.19%.
We are happy that the government has seen the wisdom of telling
banks they cannot retail auto lease products in Canada, and that
it recognizes the great deal for consumers that now exists in the
auto leasing business.
In order to keep down the actuarial risk in auto leasing there
must be good risks to offset people who are not such good risks.
Overall, one can keep lease rates down and recognize that the
automobile companies, which produce automobiles and have
subsidiaries like GMAC, Ford Credit or Chrysler Credit, have an
interest in selling automobiles. All that seems to work together
pretty well to keep interest rates down when it comes to leasing.
It is a conflict when we see the government doing something
pretty good that we can support and then doing all the other
things that it does. It makes us wonder who is in charge over
there. We can draw many examples. I can draw one in my own
riding.
Bill C-8 is as very progressive bill. It will allow one of the
pillars of our economy to be more competitive globally. That is
a good thing.
Members must ask the question: If the government can put
through a bill like this, how can it be so neglectful of other
important issues? In my riding of Prince George—Bulkley Valley,
in Burns Lake, B.C., there is the Burns Lake Indian Band. The
band has had an agreement for the last number of years in which
the village of Burns Lake, which parallels the band, provides
water and sewer facilities to the band. For the last seven and a
half years the band has decided that for some reason it would
stop paying taxes.
The village of Burns Lake has a very small tax base and to lose
$150,000 a year in taxes has a big impact. The federal
government would not want to lose tax dollars either, as
evidenced by the paltry tax cuts it has given Canadians.
However, I digress a bit.
All of a sudden, after seven years of non-payment of taxes, the
village of Burns Lake said it would cut off the band's water,
sewer and other services because it was not paying its bill. Hon.
members would think the department of Indian affairs would be
concerned about this and try to make up the back taxes and get
the thing rolling again. The shutoff date for the band's water,
sewer, fire protection and emergency services is April 30, 2001.
The mayor of Burns Lake and his officials were here a few weeks
ago and I met with them and the minister of Indian affairs. We
said that the issue was a problem and we agreed to get an
independent negotiator to work it out and—
1055
Mr. John Cannis: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
As we are trying to get a parallel it is only fair that we
clarify. We all have a tendency to stand in caucus and say
things.
The member earlier referred to certain commitments that were
made. I will quote for the record what the Liberal government
said, because the member was a bit misleading.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. I know the hon. member will
have an opportunity to participate in the debate later. It
sounds to me as though he is raising not a point of order but a
debate.
Mr. Darrel Stinson: And he should know better.
Mr. John Cannis: He should represent the people, the
facts.
The Speaker: Different members' views of the facts,
sometimes of the same facts, are seen through different eyes or
maybe different glasses. However the hon. member for Prince
George—Bulkley Valley has the floor, and if he kept his remarks
more directly relevant to Bill C-8 perhaps there would be less
controversy.
Mr. Richard Harris: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the
attention Liberal members are giving my presentation. That has
certainly been lacking in the House over the last few days and as
a result they lost their position yesterday.
After an agreement there is still no negotiator and no extension
of the services planned. As we speak, the Liberal government
and the Indian affairs department know very well that there is a
full blown infrastructure program on the reserve.
To set up a stand alone system on a temporary basis would cost
$600,000 or $700,000 plus $60,000 a month to maintain. That is
just a temporary system. The Liberals are looking to embark on a
permanent system that would cost in the neighbourhood of $4
million to $7 million over the next five years.
All this could have been avoided if they had paid the back taxes
and kept current. They could have saved themselves about $5
million over the next five years. However the government and the
minister of Indian affairs do not see the wisdom of that.
I am happy they saw some wisdom in our financial services
sector. If the member was wondering when I would get back to
that, I had to draw that comparison. There is wisdom in Bill
C-8. I know that the banking industry, insurance companies,
securities companies and the payment system are applauding it to
a large extent. It has a lot of deficiencies. We wish the
government had been 100% progressive rather than 97%. The other
3% represents the three amendments we put forward that the
government voted down.
I know this has been interesting for Liberal members. We have
had a chance to talk about a lot of important issues and I
appreciate the attention of my Liberal colleagues across the way.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[Translation]
ALLISON FORSYTH
Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am
pleased to rise today to congratulate Allison Forsyth, winner of
the giant slalom for the fifth year in a row at the Canadian
championships at Mount Orford, Quebec.
[English]
Ms. Forsyth, a native of Nanaimo, British Columbia, counts this
as her eighth championship victory, tying the record of Kathy
Kreiner for the most national championship titles.
[Translation]
Congratulations are in order as well for Geneviève Simard of
Val-Morin, Quebec, and Anna Prehal, of Outremont, Quebec, for
placing second and third, respectively.
Canada's alpine team is very well prepared for the 2002 winter
Olympics. We have no doubt these young athletes will continue
to make Canada proud.
Congratulations, once again.
* * *
[English]
SUDAN
Mr. Keith Martin (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, last week I returned from Sudan where
I had an unprecedented opportunity to meet with human rights
workers and victims of that terrible conflict. This week I
released a seven point peace plan that would stop the bloodshed
and end the famine in that country.
The plan asks the Sudanese government, first, to enact an
immediate ceasefire and stop arming its proxy militia; second, to
allow relief shipments and NGOs unrestricted access throughout
the country; third, to stop all bombing; fourth, to implement the
declaration of principles it agreed to; fifth, to propose an oil
revenue sharing agreement with the south; sixth, to stop
supporting the Lord's Resistance Army; and, seventh, to start an
intertribal dialogue in the south that focuses on peace and
development.
1100
Canada is in an ideal position to work with the international
community to save the lives of a million people who are poised to
die in the next few weeks. So that we can secure a long lasting
peace, let us act now and save lives.
* * *
CAMERON HEIGHTS COLLEGIATE
Mrs. Karen Redman (Kitchener Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I rise today to recognize a progressive school in my constituency
of Kitchener Centre.
Cameron Heights Collegiate has launched the Cameron Institute of
International Studies to introduce the global perspective to all
its classes. International studies is seen as a natural
progression for Cameron Heights, as its students hail from 57
countries with almost one-third of their families not having
English as a first language.
A wide variety of learning opportunities is presented to each
student, creating informed, tolerant, compassionate and lifelong
learners.
In the knowledge based economy of the 21st century, people are
key to Canada's productivity and competitiveness. Canada's
multiculturalism stimulates innovation and creativity.
I invite all members of the House to join me in congratulating
Cameron Heights for adding this exciting component to its
curriculum. It is through this sort of initiative that we can
bridge differences, bring down barriers created by racism and
discrimination and help more Canadians participate fully in
society.
Cameron Heights International Studies provides a window to the
world for Kitchener youth.
* * *
[Translation]
GOVERNMENT OF QUEBEC
Mr. Guy St-Julien (Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
Quebecers pay over $7 billion annually in interest on the debt
of the government of Bernard Landry.
Why not pay down the debt by $1 billion rather than the $500
million announced? This is a gimmick, not good sense.
Last year, Bernard Landry put his surpluses of $750 million in
non-profit bodies headed by his Péquiste friends.
Today, he is doing the same thing.
The sum of $950 million is being put in the Caisse de dépôt et
placement for the next election campaign in Quebec or for the
referendum.
* * *
[English]
CULTURE LINK
Ms. Sarmite Bulte (Parkdale—High Park, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, today I would like to congratulate the recipients of the
2001 Toronto's Commitment to Diverse-City Awards.
I was honoured to be present when the awards were presented on
March 23 by Culture Link, a non-profit community based
organization located in my riding which facilitates the
settlement of newcomers in Toronto.
The awards honour those who have made a special contribution to
ensuring an equitably diverse community.
I want to congratulate Shaun Chen, a recipient of the award in
the youth category. Consuelo Rubio was the recipient of the
award in the settlement sector. In the general community
category, the award was given to June Veecock.
I wish to extend congratulations to all the winners and to
Culture Link for its continued commitment to the inclusion of all
our people in our diverse community.
* * *
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, the farm crisis in Canada is not over. Our food
producers are struggling harder than ever to survive.
In my riding of Dauphin—Swan River, the Farm Credit Corporation
is beginning to foreclose on farm accounts.
The government does not understand the value of the family farm
or the value of our food producers to the economic wealth of the
country.
The government does not understand that killing the family farm
is the death knell for all rural communities of Canada.
How many of us in this Chamber would survive if our incomes had
been slashed by up to 50% over the last three years?
Instead of helping the farmers by working together with
provincial governments to come up with long term solutions, the
federal government takes the easy way out and blames
international subsidies.
It is low commodity prices that have created the crisis, not the
farmer. I call on the government to do the right thing and help
those who have fed us for over 100 years.
* * *
SOFTWOOD LUMBER
Mr. Andy Savoy (Tobique—Mactaquac, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
in less than 48 hours, the softwood lumber agreement and the
maritime accord expire.
For New Brunswick the outcome of a potential trade war would be
disastrous. One in eight jobs in the province is dependent on
the lumber industry. It is a $670 million business.
Since 1842, when the Webster-Ashburton treaty was signed, New
Brunswick has enjoyed continuous free trade with the United
States. However, this is quickly coming to an end. The U.S.
coalition for free trade in lumber is embarking on its fourth
attempt in less than 12 years to block Canadian access to
American lumber markets. All have proven unsuccessful in the
past and the Government of Canada anticipates a similar outcome
in regard to this one.
Given our unique lumber relationship with the United States and
our exclusion from previous trade action, I urge the federal
government to move quickly and renew the maritime accord before
it expires at midnight on March 31. Time is of the essence.
* * *
1105
[Translation]
GOVERNMENT OF QUEBEC BUDGET
Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ): Mr. Speaker, for
the first time a woman, Pauline Marois, tabled the government's
budget in the Quebec National Assembly.
This budget stood out for its sensitivity to the needs of the
public and its resolutely social democratic thrust, including an
additional $2 billion for health care funding which is coming out
of the Government of Quebec's revenues and not from federal
transfers, which now account for only 14 cents on every dollar
invested in health care in Quebec.
The budget also contains commitments for education funding which
are well above what was expected, tax cuts which target low- and
middle-income earners, major support for the resource regions
through tax holidays and other incentives for local processing
and, finally, additional anti-poverty funding.
In closing, I wish to draw the House's attention to the
announced creation in Laval of a biotechnology and human health
complex and of the Centre de développement des biotechnologies,
evidence of the Bloc Quebecois' firm desire to support the
research and development sector. In short—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Vancouver—Kingsway.
* * *
[English]
CRIME PREVENTION
Ms. Sophia Leung (Vancouver Kingsway, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
on March 9, for the Minister of Justice, I was pleased to
announce $2.6 million to fund 80 crime prevention projects in
B.C.
These crime prevention grants support community projects across
the country in regard to the efforts of communities to prevent
crime. It is the people who work in our local communities to
reduce crime who deserve much credit for continued action and
success in improving the safety of our streets.
I am pleased that B.C. benefited from those grants. Clearly our
Liberal government is committed to a proactive approach to crime
prevention and to safe communities for all Canadians.
* * *
HEALTH
Mr. David Anderson (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the impact from foot and mouth
disease is very real. Canadians have watched the devastation of
the European rural areas.
In Canada people are willing to work to prevent this disease
from entering the country. They are waiting for direction from
the government.
For the last month the Canadian Alliance has called on the
government to ensure that inspection and prevention measures are
adequate and for programs to educate the general public.
I would like to take a few moments this morning to talk about a
real life issue where Canadian people need direction. Across
Canada there are hundreds of high school students who are
planning on going to Europe over the Easter break. These young
people want to do the right thing. If they go, they are
concerned about bringing foot and mouth back to their
communities, but if they cancel and stay home, they are being
told that they will each lose approximately $1,500 of their
deposit.
The government was willing in the last 24 hours to charge the
Canadian taxpayer thousands upon thousands of dollars in airfare
by forcing its members to return to Ottawa last night. What is
it willing to do to help these young high school students do the
right thing? Can the government give these students help or
direction in making this decision?
* * *
THE ENVIRONMENT
Ms. Aileen Carroll (Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, in the latest of a series of decisions reversing
environmental restrictions, President Bush has withdrawn the U.S.
from the Kyoto accord. He places the needs of the American
economy ahead of such global obligations.
A spokesman for the Union of Concerned Scientists said “This is
the most anti-environmental act by an American president in
modern history”.
Our domestic initiatives will not diminish our competitive edge
with the U.S. Let us not wring our hands and feel compelled to
slow our efforts to follow the incredibly short-sighted decision
of President Bush.
Canada should seize the moment to save the protocol and enhance
our moral authority internationally as we continue to negotiate
with the European Union countries. It would underscore our
determination to move forward with them in our commitment to the
reduction of global warming. It would give evidence of our firm
commitment not to put all our eggs in one sink.
* * *
HEATING FUEL REBATE
Mr. Dick Proctor (Palliser, NDP): Mr. Speaker, Canadians
know that the $1.5 billion home heating rebate had many
difficulties, not the least of which was the sending of cheques
to prison inmates and the deceased. What is less well known is
the manner in which the government accessed this money.
The government did it through the issue of special warrants,
which, according to long established House of Commons procedure
and practice, are only to be used in very special circumstances.
Indeed, the questionable practice does not escape the watchful
eye of Canada's auditor general, who leaves office tomorrow.
Mr. Desautels has suggested that upon assuming office his
successor should investigate how the government accessed the
money without parliamentary approval and whether there is a
precedent for using special warrants to approve new programs.
Clearly the government's haste to implement the program resulted
in a significant waste of taxpayer money. It appears that not
only were Canadians duped with their own money in last November's
election but it was accomplished in a highly questionable and
perhaps unauthorized manner.
* * *
1110
[Translation]
LIBERAL PARTY
Mr. Ghislain Fournier (Manicouagan, BQ): Mr. Speaker, with a
21-seat majority, a low turnout in the last federal election, one
scandal after another, and motions to gag the opposition, the
Liberal majority was taken by surprise.
In their rush to get back home, leaving members of the public
waiting for answers from the government, the Prime Minister and
his MPs made it only too plain how they run the nation.
But what was particularly evident was that the Prime Minister
lacks any leadership over his own party, and is no longer even
able to convince his MPs to do their job.
It is high time that this Prime Minister bowed to the public
interest and gave some thought to his future.
* * *
[English]
GREAT LAKES
Mr. John Maloney (Erie—Lincoln, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
Great Lakes are home to 45% of Canada's industrial capacity and
25% of Canada's agricultural capacity, providing for $180 billion
in annual Canada-U.S. trade.
The Great Lakes basin includes eight of the twenty largest
Canadian cities and 9.2 million Canadian inhabitants.
Water level fluctuations in the Great Lakes result from
environmental factors such as precipitation, runoff from the
drainage basin, inflow from upstream lakes and rivers and outflow
to downstream lakes and rivers, as well as human factors, such as
dredging, diversions and consumption.
This year lake levels are low once again, which is a cause for
alarm for Canadians whose lives depend on these bodies of water
for employment and recreation.
I call upon the government to take action in the fight against
unnecessary water loss in the Great Lakes due to human
involvement. It is essential that we maintain this valuable
resource for Canadians today and for Canadians tomorrow.
* * *
HEALTH
Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Mr. Speaker, Prince
Edward Island's Kensington Intermediate High School has cancelled
a school trip to France and the United Kingdom because of concern
over hoof and mouth disease.
I call upon the federal government to take heed of the P.E.I.
example and immediately take measures to educate Canadians in a
massive Canada wide program to ensure this disease does not enter
the country.
Canada needs more stringent preventative measures to protect
Canadian livestock from hoof and mouth disease. Canadian
travellers must be told what steps they can take to prevent
bringing this disease into the country, whether it is through
dried meat or infected clothing.
Returning travellers from infected areas now have to disinfect
their shoes, but what about the other two pairs of shoes they
have in their suitcases? What about the clothes they are
wearing?
Canada can no longer remain passive about this issue. We must
start a program tomorrow and it is the government's
responsibility to impose it.
* * *
SOFTWOOD LUMBER
Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would
like to draw your attention to the current softwood lumber trade
dispute between Canada and the United States.
Yesterday the subcommittee on international trade tabled a
report that calls on and supports government action to vigorously
defend Canada's interests under international laws.
We also call on the government to appoint a special envoy with
the aim of developing unified strategy for the whole country. It
is critical that Canada speak in a unified voice on this file.
I congratulate the minister and his department for his
leadership and hard work on behalf of our industries.
I would also like to congratulate my fellow committee members
and the 120 members of the House who have signed their names in
support of free and fair trade on softwood lumber.
There is still time for those other members who would like to
sign on to this report.
* * *
HEALTH
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton—Melville, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the risk of foot and mouth disease
entering and gaining a foothold in our country has many farmers
and their families losing sleep at night.
An article in the Edmonton newspaper quoting a lead veterinarian
with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency has me worried. To
quote Larry Delver, the veterinary program officer with the CFIA,
he said:
We are at risk. We don't have sniffing dogs at the Edmonton or
Calgary airports and we can't go through a traveller's luggage
unless we are suspicious...Once people go through the foot baths
at the airports they are gone. We just have to trust them.
This is not a time for partisan politics. All members of the
House and all levels of government need to put every ounce of
effort into protecting our borders from this outbreak.
If the government is so dedicated to Canadian farmers and, for
that matter, our economic prosperity, then how does it justify
only six dogs, minimal baggage inspection and flat out failure to
inspect people and baggage coming here from areas infected with
foot and mouth?
We should not be needlessly ringing alarm bells, but we are
talking about a $20 billion industry that needs protection. Why
has the government not put in place a plan to better handle this
issue?
* * *
1115
CANADIAN HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION
Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Mr. Speaker, does
anyone over there on the government's side of the House care any
more?
The Canadian Human Rights Commission has issued a serious and
damning report on the government's failure to meet its own
objectives and there has been zero response. Why has the
government fallen down on meeting its employment equity
objectives? Why has it again failed the aboriginal people of the
county and robbed the community of its dignity, human rights and
basic needs to health, housing, income security and decent work
opportunities?
I applaud the Canadian Human Rights Commission for speaking out
and recommending that social conditions be added to the act to
prohibit discrimination of poor people.
The question remains, however, of whether the government will
address these serious shortcomings outlined in the commission's
report. While scandal racks the multiculturalism minister and
the PM ponders his bill of sale, people are hurting. Government
policy is failing from neglect and indifference.
We in this party will not let the government off the hook on
human rights, employment equity and justice for the poor.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
PRIME MINISTER
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, Canadians have a right to expect
their Prime Minister to obey conflict of interest rules 100%, yet
the evidence so far confirms that the Prime Minister had a real
and substantial personal stake in the value of the Grand-Mère
golf course during the time he influenced the allocation of
public funds to surrounding real estate.
Is the Liberal government refusing to submit this apparent
breach to an independent inquiry because it knows the Prime
Minister's role in l'affaire Grand-Mère cannot pass close
scrutiny?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member is starting off on the wrong foot again.
There is no conflict of interest here on the part of the Prime
Minister. This was demonstrated by the documents which have been
tabled. The Prime Minister has been quite clear on this. It has
been made quite clear by the agreement of sale between himself
and Jonas Prince, and in Mr. Prince's later agreement of sale to
Mr. Michaud of these very same shares.
There is no conflict of interest. Once again the opposition is
failing Canadians with no questions about softwood lumber, no
questions about agriculture, no questions about unemployment, no
questions about the economy, no questions about the—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Calgary—Nose Hill.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the documents clearly show just the
opposite of what the Deputy Prime Minister said.
Yesterday he evaded a question about the possibility that the
Prime Minister not only had an interest in the golf course in the
form of a debt owed on his shares, but also that he had retained
some of the actual shares not covered by the 1993 note with Jonas
Prince.
I will ask the question again. Did the Prime Minister or any
member of his family personally hold any shares in the Grand-Mère
golf course after November 1, 1993?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, first, the debt is not an interest in the golf course.
Second, I think the documents are clear. Neither the Prime
Minister nor any member of his family held an interest in the
shares. They were all sold to Mr. Prince on November 1, 1993.
Again the hon. member is letting Canadians down, as is her
party. It is failing in its duties as an opposition party by not
asking questions of interest to Canadians as they affect the
lives of Canadians in areas like health care, the environment,
the economy, agriculture and softwood lumber. She and her party
ought to go back to dealing with real issues of concern to real
Canadians.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the Deputy Prime Minister is clearly
letting Canadians down by not answering simple questions that
would clear up an ethical cloud over the Prime Minister's head.
The Prime Minister's company held 25% of the shares of the
Grand-Mère Golf Club. We know that. Yet the note with Jonas
Prince clearly refers to only 22% of those shares.
What happened to the other 3%? Did the Prime Minister or a
member of his family retain, after November 1, 1993, those 3% of
shares representing an interest in the golf course, yes or no?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, she has misquoted the agreement of purchase and sale of
November 1993. It spoke of approximately 22%.
The agreement by which Mr. Prince sold all the shares he had
acquired from the Prime Minister in November 1993 said that in
fact he had sold all the shares he had acquired. There are no
missing shares except in the fog in the hon. member's brain.
1120
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, for two days we have asked the Minister of Industry,
who is responsible to the House to uphold the Canada Business
Corporations Act, to tell us whether the Grand-Mère Golf Club
complied with all applicable laws.
The letter from the head of his corporations branch said that
the registry did not comply with the requirements of the act.
Will the minister stop evading the question and tell us whether
or not the Grand-Mère Golf Club broke the law?
Hon. Brian Tobin (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the examination is complete and direction has been
given. Information will be filed, posted and made public.
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, it is his responsibility to uphold the law. I will
ask him the question again. He says the information is coming.
We want to know the answer to the question. He should have the
information already. Did the Grand-Mère Golf Club break the law?
Hon. Brian Tobin (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, if the member understood the act, he would know that I
cannot comment on the details under the act. The Prime Minister
and other parties had to give consent for the release of
documents because they cannot be released under the act. He
knows that.
[Translation]
Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire (Longueuil, BQ): Mr. Speaker, now that the
Liberal contingent is out in full force, I hope that we will be
getting some real answers on the Grand-Mère golf club and Auberge
Grand-Mère situation.
Far from exonerating the Prime Minister, the documents that have
been released, the September 1999 sales agreement in particular,
prove that the Prime Minister still had an interest in the golf
course when the shares were transferred to Mr. Michaud.
In light of the September 1999 agreement, does the government at
last acknowledge—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire: I am beginning to realize, from the way
they are fussing, just how unhappy they are.
Will the Prime Minister acknowledge that he placed himself in a
conflict of interest situation when he intervened with the bank
in favour of the Auberge—
The Speaker: The Deputy Prime Minister.
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
hon. member is showing a complete lack of confidence in her own
parliamentary leader, who said in connection with the record of
sale:
Let him provide that, and the problem will be over.
It has been provided, yet the hon. member keeps on with her
questions. What lack of confidence in her own parliamentary
leader.
Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire (Longueuil, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I am like
the general public. We lack confidence in both the Prime
Minister and this government.
When reference is made to the sales agreement of September 1999,
the Deputy Prime Minister refers to standard clauses. Yet there
is nothing standard about these clauses, because it is the Prime
Minister and not Jonas Prince, supposed owner of the shares, who
renounces all interest in the golf club and provides guarantees
to the new purchaser.
Will the Deputy Prime Minister admit that the evidence has been
provided that the Prime Minister had a financial interest and
placed himself in a conflict of interest position when he used
his position—
The Speaker: The Deputy Prime Minister.
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, there
is no conflict of interest. The Prime Minister's shares were
sold back in November 1993. When the lawyers prepared the
documents, they did so prudently. It is a matter of the
lawyers' decisions.
Once again, the hon. member's own parliamentary leader is the
one she is attacking with her lack of confidence in asking these
questions, when her leader has said that tabling the bill of
sale would put an end to the situation.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
the documents released this week did not solve anything in the
Auberge Grand-Mère issue. These documents show that, more than
six years after the alleged sale of his shares in 1993, the
Prime Minister got involved again in 1999.
When a seller gets involved in the resale of his house six years
after its alleged sale, does it not mean that he still has an
interest in the property? Is this not the real position in which
the Prime Minister found himself in 1999, that of a person who
had an interest in the transaction?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
hon. member is wrong. The Prime Minister did not get involved.
The shares were sold by Mr. Prince to Mr. Michaud. That is the
whole story.
Again, another member is showing his lack of trust in the Bloc
Quebecois leadership by asking such questions. In spite of the
commitment made by his parliamentary leader, when he asked that
the bill of sale be tabled, they continue to ask similar
questions.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
perhaps some members opposite have misplaced their trust,
however, by putting it in their current leader.
1125
A number of questions remain unanswered, including
this one: How can the Prime Minister justify his involvement
more than six years after the alleged sale of his shares in
1993, if it is not because he still owned these shares in 1999?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
again, the Prime Minister did not get involved. He no longer
owned the shares after November 1, 1993. Once again, the
parliamentary leader of the Bloc Quebecois said “Table the bill
of sale and we will stop asking questions”.
The bill of sale was tabled, which means that the Bloc Quebecois
violated its commitment to the House and to Canadians.
* * *
[English]
NATURAL RESOURCES
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
this has not been a good week for the future of planet Earth with
American President George Bush simultaneously rejecting the Kyoto
accord and saying that he would like oil and gas to flow freely
from Canada to the United States.
I would like to ask the government, perhaps the Minister of
Natural Resources, whether the government will state today that
it does not want Canada to become an unlimited supply of energy
for a country that does not realize that the name of the game is
to consume less energy rather than more energy. Will the
government commit to ratification of the Kyoto accord in 2002 and
repudiate George Bush's position on the Kyoto accord?
Hon. Ralph Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the position taken by the Government of Canada with
respect to the development of our natural resources is a position
that is based entirely upon the principles of sustainable
development. That means the effective integration of economic,
environmental and social considerations.
We have enormous resources to develop. They can be developed to
the great advantage of Canadians in terms of jobs and growth and
investment, but we will do so very squarely protecting the
interests of our environment, our social concerns and, in northern
Canada particularly, the concerns of aboriginal Canadians.
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I hope the House would notice the silence with respect
to the Kyoto accord and the lack of any condemnation coming from
the Canadian government with respect to President Bush's
position, unlike leaders of the European Union countries who have
expressed their outrage at Mr. Bush's position.
I ask the minister to recall a previous time when we had an
American president who did not realize the problem of acid rain
and the stand that Canada took at that time trying to bring that
American president around. Ronald Reagan was his name.
We could do the same with George Bush if we had a government
that was willing to stand up and say that George Bush is wrong.
Hon. Ralph Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the Government of Canada still believes very much in the
principles that are contained in the Kyoto protocol.
We signed that protocol in 1998. We have been working
assiduously to see that its terms are implemented. Just last
year, for example, we invested $1.1 billion to pursue all the
initiatives, some 400 initiatives, to implement the principles of
the Kyoto protocol.
* * *
PRIME MINISTER
Right Hon. Joe Clark (Calgary Centre, PC): Mr. Speaker,
the side deal on Grand-Mère, signed on the Prime Minister's
behalf, refers explicitly to the costs of any inquiry by
parliament or any other body. It explicitly obliges the Prime
Minister's personal company to pay any costs of such an inquiry
incurred by Michaud company that ultimately bought the shares.
The Prime Minister has a financial interest in avoiding any
inquiry. If his government can stop an inquiry it saves the
Prime Minister's personal money. Does that not in itself
constitute a new and serious conflict of interest?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): No, Mr.
Speaker.
Right Hon. Joe Clark (Calgary Centre, PC): Well then, Mr.
Speaker, if that is the standard, there is no such thing as a
conflict of interest. If that is the standard, the government
can roll over the rights of any citizen or any institution in the
country.
Yesterday I asked the Prime Minister a straightforward question
about the handwritten document the Prime Minister claims to be a
bill of sale. I did not get an answer. Let me try again with
the loquacious Deputy Prime Minister.
Will the Deputy Prime Minister tell us whether both parties
signed the document at the same time? In what town or city and
province was that note signed? And sir, were there any—
The Speaker: The hon. Deputy Prime Minister.
1130
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I said yesterday that the agreement speaks for itself.
If my hon. friend wants to get further evidence of the accuracy
of what the Prime Minister and I have been saying in the House,
let him look at the agreement dated September 29 between Park
Inns and Placements Louis Michaud.
It says in part:
Whereas—Akimbo Development—on behalf of and as agent of Park
Inns Canada Limited—and Park Inns hereinafter—referred to as
“Akimbo”, purchased from J. & A. all of the Shares—
The agreement referred to the agreement of November 1, 1993—
The Speaker: The hon. member for
Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke.
* * *
AUDITOR GENERAL
Ms. Cheryl Gallant (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, in his 2000 report the auditor
general condemned CIDA for a lack of due diligence in awarding a
$6.3 million contract to Transelec, a company owned by a close
friend of the Prime Minister. A senior CIDA official admitted in
public accounts committee that CIDA had made a mistake in
awarding the contract to Transelec.
Why, after numerous questions in the House on this issue, did
the minister responsible for CIDA never once admit that her
department made a $6.3 million mistake?
Hon. Maria Minna (Minister for International Cooperation,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as a matter of fact the department saved
$2 million for the public.
Seven companies were proposed to the minister and three went to
bid. Transelec's bid was 30% below bid and $2 million was saved
to taxpayers.
Ms. Cheryl Gallant (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, on February 15 of this year the
minister stated that the auditor general was wrong and CIDA was
right.
Questions asked of the minister soon after the release of the
auditor general's report again gave the minister the opportunity
to admit her mistake. She did not.
Why did the minister send her official to do what she should
have done herself and take the blame for her department's $6.3
million mistake?
Hon. Maria Minna (Minister for International Cooperation,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, first, I said no such thing. Second, as
I said, this contract saved taxpayers $2 million. The bid was
30% below every other bidder. It was a properly bidded contract.
That is exactly what I said then and that is what I am saying
now.
* * *
[Translation]
PRIME MINISTER
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I have
a very specific question for the government, a question the
Prime Minister has refused to answer all week.
Article 3.6 of the agreement the Prime Minister signed in
September 1999 provides that, if there is an investigation into
this matter, the Prime Minister must assume the legal costs of
Louis Michaud, the purchaser of his shares.
Will the Deputy Prime Minister acknowledge that the Prime
Minister has a financial interest in there not being an
investigation or a committee looking into his transactions in
the matter of the Grand-Mère golf club? Will he recognize this
once and for all?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, no.
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Mr. Speaker, can
the Deputy Prime Minister tell us on what interests the Prime
Minister is basing his decision to reject an inquiry?
Are they those of a Prime Minister who must ensure the integrity
of his government or the financial interests of a Prime Minister
who knows he is in conflict of interest?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
there is no reason, there is no basis for an inquiry. The RCMP
said there was no reason to continue these inquiries. The
ethics counsellor confirmed that there was no conflict of
interest. Most importantly, the documents tabled in the House
of Commons show once again, clearly, that there is no conflict
of interest.
I think we can ask the member why, once again, he is
contradicting his own House leader and calling for an inquiry
following the tabling of the record of sale.
* * *
[English]
MULTICULTURALISM
Mrs. Betty Hinton (Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys,
Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, late yesterday afternoon the
Secretary of State for Multiculturalism reluctantly faxed a
qualified apology for her inflammatory comments about
make-believe racist activities in Kamloops. However, her foolish
comments have completely destroyed her credibility as a fighter
against racism.
1135
The Prime Minister said that we should respect House tradition.
He and his minister should respect cabinet tradition: When one
misleads the House, one resigns. Will the minister stand in her
place today and resign from cabinet?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member has shown why the Alliance Party has
been running out of steam. It is the same old stuff, in spite of
the clear answers that I have given and I repeat. The hon.
secretary of state recognized she made a mistake. She then
apologized to the House.
If the hon. member and her party were serious about respecting
the House and treating it seriously themselves, they would accept
the apology and get back to their job as the opposition of asking
questions of importance to Canadians.
Mr. Richard Harris (Prince George—Bulkley Valley, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I am sure the minister for
multiculturalism wanted to stand but the Deputy Prime Minister
beat her to it.
The junior minister for multiculturalism fabricated a story
about Kamloops. She fabricated a story about Prince George. She
fabricated the story about her staff never calling police
officials.
She remembered all that, but yesterday when the member for
Edmonton North brought up an incident that really did happen, she
had no idea of it despite the fact it was a story in a major—
The Speaker: I do not know that there is a question
there. The hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre.
* * *
NATURAL RESOURCES
Ms. Anita Neville (Winnipeg South Centre, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, as Californians prepare for more periodic blackouts the
Bush administration is talking about an energy crisis and the
need for a North American energy policy to address this problem.
Could the Minister of Natural Resources tell the House if there
is an energy crisis in Canada. Could he expand further on the
position being taken in response to the U.S. point of view?
Hon. Ralph Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, there is no energy crisis in Canada. We are blessed
with enormous assets: conventional fossil fuels, hydro power,
heavy oil, the oil sands, new frontiers in the north Atlantic and
in the Arctic, plus nuclear, plus a growing portfolio of
renewable and alternative fuels, new technologies like fuel
cells, and the best energy brain power in the world.
We do not have a crisis but we do have an enormous opportunity
to seize that opportunity. We are not pursuing a North American
energy policy. We are pursuing the expansion and successful
functioning of energy markets in the Canadian interest.
* * *
[Translation]
KYOTO PROTOCOL
Ms. Monique Guay (Laurentides, BQ): Mr. Speaker, while Quebec has
made considerable efforts to meet its objectives for decreased
greenhouse gas emissions, Canada is dragging its feet, and this
affects Quebec as well. Yesterday, the United States decided
not to ratify the Kyoto protocol, and this too is likely to
affect Quebec and Canada.
Since the beginning of this week, the government keeps on
telling us it wants to get back to real business. If this is
so, can the Minister of the Environment explain his lack of
reaction to the American decision?
[English]
Hon. Ralph Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, Canada is very seriously pursuing its international
obligations. We negotiated with respect to the Kyoto protocol.
We have been very active in the years since Kyoto in not only
elaborating upon the international implementation mechanisms but
taking action at home in Canada.
Last year in the budget of February and the mini budget in
October we committed $1.1 billion over the next five years, which
will eliminate 65 megatons of carbon dioxide from our atmosphere.
[Translation]
Ms. Monique Guay (Laurentides, BQ): Mr. Speaker, that is not the
question.
Yesterday, the minister said “We are going to ask them what can
work for them, if this does not”. The minister appears to be
giving up on the Kyoto protocol, while because of our geography
the American decision will inevitably impact upon Quebec and
Canada.
If the government was serious about wanting to deal with real
problems ought it not to be fighting for the Kyoto protocol
instead of just throwing up its hands?
1140
[English]
Hon. Ralph Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member asks us to do something about Kyoto. In
fact we are. We are investing over $1.1 billion in climate
change solutions.
We will also continue to work with all our international
partners to put together an international arrangement that works.
We obviously disagree with President Bush's decision and we will
work very hard to obtain an international consensus to bring down
greenhouse gases and mitigate the problem of climate change.
* * *
MULTICULTURALISM
Mr. James Moore (Port Moody—Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam,
Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, on top of the Prince George
cross burning smear, on top of the Kamloops smear, on top of the
fictitious letter defence, on top of all we have heard, the
Secretary of State for Multiculturalism admitted to the House
yesterday that she has not been doing her job in policing and
shaming a real cross burning that happened in Montreal last year.
She has misused her office on one hand and has been absent and
irresponsible on the other. Will the secretary of state do
herself, her government, her department and her constituents a
big favour and the honourable thing and just resign?
Hon. Hedy Fry (Secretary of State (Multiculturalism)(Status
of Women), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, following question period I
asked my department to follow up on the question by the hon.
member for Edmonton North.
My department assures me that it did not fund this activity. Mr.
Speaker, I can tell you, I certainly do not condone that type of
behaviour.
Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, there is only one thing we want to
hear from the minister and it is the two words: I resign.
The people from Prince George are demanding accountability. The
citizens of Canada are demanding she should be held accountable.
Even some of her own Liberal colleagues are suggesting that she
should resign.
The Prime Minister talks a lot about parliament's tradition of
accepting a member's apology. Why does the Prime Minister not
follow the time honoured tradition of ministerial accountability
and fire his junior minister of multiculturalism?
Hon. Herb Gray (Deputy Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the mayor of Kamloops, according to a press report in
the Calgary Herald, speaking of the secretary of state with
respect to Kamloops, said:
If the mayor of Kamloops under these circumstances is willing to
accept what the secretary of state has said, the full and
unequivocal apology, why is the hon. member and his party not big
enough to act with the same degree of class? What is wrong with
him?
* * *
TRADE
Mr. Svend Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the Minister for International Trade. The
minister's trade policy is coming under increasing attack with
the Council of Canadians and CUPW this week launching a
constitutional challenge of chapter 11 of NAFTA and the respected
group, Rights and Democracy, urging that any free trade of the
Americas agreement must clearly give primacy to international
human rights treaties.
Will the minister tell his colleagues in Buenos Aires next week
that Canada will not sign any FTAA treaty that does not put
universal human rights, workers rights and the environment
ahead—
The Speaker: The hon. Minister for International Trade.
Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my colleagues, the Minister of the
Environment, the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Finance,
are all working very hard with their counterparts in the Americas
to make sure that on the trade front and on every front we make
progress in our hemisphere.
We have been making remarkable progress in the last 20 years.
There is a lot more democracy in the Americas than there was 20
years ago. There is a lot more respect for human rights in our
hemisphere, and I think trade that leads to development has
contributed a great deal to that progress.
* * *
NATURAL RESOURCES
Mr. Joe Comartin (Windsor—St. Clair, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
since we cannot seem to get an answer from the Minister of
Natural Resources, let me address my question to the Deputy Prime
Minister.
Environment ministers and leaders from around the world have
been vocal in their condemnation of the U.S. for its repudiation
of Kyoto, yet our environment minister and our Prime Minister
remain silent.
Will the Canadian government join the international community,
repudiate the American rejection of Kyoto and commit to a 2002
ratification of an effective protocol? Yes or no.
Hon. Ralph Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. gentleman does not listen. I have said very
clearly that we do not agree. We do not agree with the American
position.
* * *
LUMBER INDUSTRY
Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister for International Trade. What has
the minister done to guarantee that Canadian sawmillers will not
wake up on Sunday morning facing U.S. anti-dumping measures
against Canadian softwood lumber?
1145
Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, anti-dumping investigations are company
specific. We have worked with the industry over the last year
and have consulted with it very narrowly. We briefed it solely
on the American legislation on anti-dumping. It is not up to us
to keep the books of our companies.
I am confident that our companies have respected their
international business obligations, and that when we wake up on
Sunday morning we will be defending Canadian access to the United
States market as we must within NAFTA.
* * *
FRESHWATER EXPORTS
Mr. Loyola Hearn (St. John's West, PC): Mr. Speaker, the
premier of Newfoundland has reintroduced the bulk export of water
issue. He said that even if the governments of Canada and other
provincial jurisdictions think that it as not in their best
interests he will do it anyway.
The premier has told the ministers of industry and trade to butt
out as he has “deserted and abandoned any right to have a direct
say”.
Does the government approve of the stand by the only Liberal
premier? If not, how does the government plan to stop this man
on a mission of self-destruction and protect our valuable water
resource?
Mr. Denis Paradis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Canada's position on
this issue is clear, just like our water. The Canadian
government has full sovereignty over the management of water when
it is in its natural state. What is important is that the NAFTA
parties confirmed in 1993 that water in its natural state was not
a good.
We strongly urge Newfoundland to stand by its original decision
and actions to prohibit bulk water removal. Everyone needs to be
on board to protect this environmental resource.
* * *
LUMBER INDUSTRY
Mr. Andy Burton (Skeena, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker,
the Deputy Prime Minister just asked for a question on softwood
lumber. Here it is. Will the government—
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
The Speaker: Order, please. The hon. member for Skeena
has the floor.
Mr. Andy Burton: Let us hope we get an answer, Mr.
Speaker. Will the government allow the softwood lumber agreement
to automatically expire tomorrow night? Yes or no.
Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the agreement negotiated in 1996 will
terminate tomorrow night, March 31 at midnight. That has been
the agreement of the House for a very long time.
There is a consensus in the industry from all regions of our
country not to renegotiate or re-enter that sort of agreement.
Our government policy is to reflect that.
Mr. John Duncan (Vancouver Island North, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for the clear
answer. There was some non-clarity over the last few days. I am
happy to know that with 24 hours to go the government knows where
it is going.
We have a national industry consensus that emissaries represent
a good option to advance Canadian interests on softwood lumber.
When will the minister announce the Canadian representative?
Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, there was no clarity on the opposition
side. It has certainly not used question period to try to
illuminate a lack of clarity on our part. They have absolutely
ignored softwood lumber. They have not put any questions to us
during the whole week on the softwood lumber issue, even though
it is a very important one.
We have been working very hard on the envoy issue. I have
raised it in every conversation I have had lately with Mr.
Zoellick. We will continue to promote it because we are looking
with the Americans for a long term solution to the problem.
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, as the minister said, the softwood lumber
agreement comes to an end tomorrow. On Sunday, free trade will
automatically kick in.
But the government has reiterated its offer to appoint a special
envoy to defend Canada's position with one voice.
Can the minister assure us that this envoy's sole mandate will
be to negotiate a return to free trade in the softwood lumber
market?
1150
Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, as everyone knows, with the support of the five
parties in the House, including the Bloc Quebecois, the
parliamentary committee unanimously approved the idea of having
one federal co-ordinator and one envoy who could work with the
Americans to identify possible courses of action and long-term
solutions.
I am therefore a bit surprised at this question from the Bloc
Quebecois, which itself supported the appointment of such an
eminent person, who could help us with this situation.
We are therefore going to continue to work on this front, and I
believe that the United States is also interested.
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Mr. Speaker, the minister did not understand the question.
I will repeat it.
Can he assure us that this envoy's sole mandate will be to
negotiate a return to free trade in the softwood lumber market,
so that Quebec will finally be entitled to equal treatment for
its exporters?
Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I believe that the member did not understand the
answer. We have always been very open-minded on this issue. I
have said this many times in the House. It is now March 30.
The agreement negotiated in 1996 is ending tomorrow.
What will happen on April 1? There are NAFTA rules which apply
in the case of softwood lumber. This is what Quebec is asking
for. It is what Canada wants. It is what the whole industry
asked for and it is what we will have.
* * *
[English]
HEALTH
Mr. Kevin Sorenson (Crowfoot, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency has announced
increased security at our international airports to ensure that
foot and mouth disease does not enter our country. These
measures include disinfectant mats and sniffer dogs.
However we have reports from travellers that these measures are
not being followed at all international airports. Has the
Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food personally taken any action
to ensure that the CFIA's increased security is rigorously and
universally applied at all international airports?
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, in
co-operation with customs and immigration, has stepped up the
surveillance of people, goods and materials coming into Canada.
I met again with the agency as recently as 9 o'clock this
morning. I went over the communications plan, the actions and
the ways in which we will inform business and travellers on the
responsibility that we all have in keeping this dreaded disease
out of North America.
Mr. Leon Benoit (Lakeland, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, foot and mouth disease, if it entered Canada, would
devastate our livestock industry, tear farm families apart and
cost up to $20 billion. We must ensure that every effort is made
by all branches of government to keep this disease out of Canada.
Could the minister responsible for customs and revenue tell the
House and farmers across the country what specific measures he
has taken to educate customs officials on the seriousness of foot
and mouth disease, and how he personally is monitoring the
preventive measures taken?
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of National Revenue and
Secretary of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the
Regions of Quebec), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is a very
important question indeed. As has been said by my colleague, we
are working with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency as well as
with Citizenship and Immigration Canada.
We have made sure that over the past few weeks all the necessary
measures have been put into place. The mandate of Canada
Customs is both economic development and the safety of our
community. Since there is a risk we have taken all the necessary
measures to protect our society as well as our farms.
* * *
THE ENVIRONMENT
Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in
1995 the House passed the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act,
an act to ensure that we have clear assessments that contribute
to sustainable development in Canada.
For the past year there has been an extensive review of the act,
and last week the minister introduced an amendment to it. Could
the parliamentary secretary tell the House how the bill will
improve the assessment for all Canadians?
Mrs. Karen Redman (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of the
Environment, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the proposed amendments to
the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act will help safeguard our
environment through a process that is predictable, certain and
timely. It will improve quality assessments through measures to
improve compliance and ensure more follow up. It will increase
opportunities for Canadians to have a meaningful say about
projects in their communities.
Use of the Internet will provide Canadians with easy access to
information about projects across the country, and it will
reflect the unique perspective aboriginal peoples bring to
environmental assessment.
1155
Project by project, the revised act will help deliver the
government's environmental priorities. Clean air—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Calgary Southeast.
* * *
MULTICULTURALISM
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, the disgraced Secretary of State for
Multiculturalism is so busy imagining cross burnings that we find
it hard to believe she did not notice a quarter page picture in a
national newspaper of four crosses being burned in front of a
major Catholic church in broad daylight in Montreal a year ago.
Perhaps the minister just did not notice this because she is the
same person who disgraced Christians by saying that a basic tenet
of Christian faith is bigotry. How does the minister have any
moral authority to criticize this anti-Christian bigotry when she
perpetuates it herself?
Hon. Hedy Fry (Secretary of State (Multiculturalism)(Status
of Women), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I said before, my
department did not fund the particular activity, and I certainly
do not condone the behaviour that went on in Montreal.
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, in fact her department did fund International
Women's Day. The group that ransacked this cathedral had
participated in the parade funded and promulgated by her
department earlier that day.
How can this minister stand here as a self-styled defender of
tolerance when she spreads religious intolerance and division
across the country, when she has been condemned for doing that by
the Canadian Jewish Congress, the Canadian Muslim Federation, the
Evangelical Fellowship of Canada and the Catholic Civil Rights
League, and when her own department supports marches that lead to
this kind of violent anti-religious bigotry?
Hon. Hedy Fry (Secretary of State (Multiculturalism)(Status
of Women), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I can assure you that my
department did not fund this activity, and I do not condone this
type of behaviour.
* * *
[Translation]
VIRTUAL PARLIAMENT
Mr. Stéphan Tremblay (Lac-Saint-Jean—Saguenay, BQ): Mr. Speaker, on
March 7, I sent a letter to all the members of this House on the
need to develop a virtual parliament. That idea was later
approved by the interparliamentary forum of the Americas.
Yesterday, at the Crossing Boundaries National Conference, the
Minister of Finance showed a great deal of interest in this
project.
My question is for the Minister of Finance and chair of the G-20.
Considering that the summit of the Americas and the current
globalization process clearly show that parliamentarians must
play a more prominent role, how does the minister intend to move
from words to deeds regarding an e-parliament project?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, what
the hon. member was suggesting in his letter—and I congratulate
him on that—as did a number of Liberal members who made the exact
same comments, was an ongoing process.
We are not talking about going from one summit to the next, but
about an ongoing process. Everyone on our side agrees that
greater co-operation is necessary between parliamentarians from
all over the world to truly improve the globalization process.
* * *
SAGUENAY—LAC-SAINT-JEAN
Mr. André Harvey (Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of National Revenue.
While the opposition wastes its time trying to fabricate a
scandal, would the minister tell us what Canada Economic
Development has been doing, particularly in the
Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean region, to help us with the difficulties we
are facing?
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of National Revenue and Secretary
of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions
of Quebec), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his
excellent question. I also thank him for the excellent work he
is doing throughout the lovely Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean region.
As is known, Canada Economic Development is taking action to
help all regions, particularly the Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean region.
Since 1996, 748 projects have been funded by Canada Economic
Development out of its total programming, to the tune of
$50 million, for a total of over $170 million in investments, not
including the Institut de recherche sur l'aluminium. Right now,
my colleague and I are working on a very important project,
which we are in fact rethinking with our stakeholders at the Zoo
de Saint-Félicien.
* * *
[English]
HIGHWAYS
Mr. Darrel Stinson (Okanagan—Shuswap, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, last November 27, a busload of Taiwanese tourists
collided with a transport truck in a snow shed near Revelstoke.
In addition to the 6 people killed that day, 120 more were killed
and 2,278 injured in accidents on this section of the
Trans-Canada Highway in the past 12 years.
How many more must suffer before the transport minister sits
down with his B.C. counterpart to negotiate a 50:50 cost sharing
agreement to rebuild this deadly part of Canada's national
highway?
1200
Hon. David Collenette (Minister of Transport, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member will realize that in last year's budget
some $600 million was provided for the beginning of highway
renewal across the country. We are now in the process of
negotiating these arrangements with the various provinces.
Certainly we would hope that the pressure points, particularly
the one at Revelstoke that he mentioned, can be dealt with.
I have to emphasize that the priority for building highways
rests with the provinces. Certainly the federal government wants
to be part of any final solution on the matter.
* * *
[Translation]
GASPÉ REGION
Mr. Jean-Yves Roy (Matapédia-Matane, BQ): Mr. Speaker, everything
appears just dandy in the Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean region, but it is
far from the case in the Gaspé.
Despite the apparent impatience of the member for
Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok with the time it is
taking Canada Economic Development to release funds from its
special program in the Gaspé region, he and the minister refused
to take part in a debate on this very subject yesterday on
Radio-Canada.
How does the minister and Secretary of State responsible for the
Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec
intend to remedy the situation and provide the funds from this
program in the Gaspé?
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of National Revenue and Secretary
of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions
of Quebec), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, first, I did not refuse to take
part in a program. I could not take part in the program, that
is a different matter.
An hon. member: Ah, that is different.
Hon. Martin Cauchon: Give me a few minutes to answer the
opposition.
While the people in the Gaspé were effectively having economic
development problems, while the people were represented by a
Bloc member, the members on this side of the House met the
people of the Gaspé in order to develop specific projects.
Together with the people, we invested in a special $35 million
fund. We, the Liberals on this side of the House, opened an
office in the Gaspé. At the moment, Mr. Speaker, it is
important that—
The Speaker: This concludes Oral Question Period for today.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[English]
CANADIAN HUMAN RIGHTS TRIBUNAL
The Speaker: I have the honour to lay upon the table
the 2000 Canadian Human Rights Tribunal annual report.
* * *
[Translation]
ORDER IN COUNCIL APPOINTMENTS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I am
pleased to table, in both official languages, a number of order
in council appointments made by the government.
Pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 110(1), these are
deemed referred to the appropriate standing committees, a list
of which is attached.
* * *
GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO PETITIONS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
pursuant to Standing Order 36(8), I have the honour to table, in
both official languages, the government's response to two
petitions.
* * *
[English]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I
have the honour to present the 11th report of the Standing
Committee on Procedure and House Affairs regarding the
parliamentary calendar.
Mr. Keith Martin: Madam Speaker, earlier this week I
released a report on the Sudan, a seven point plan to address the
two major issues affecting that country: war and famine.
1205
In order to be helpful to all members in the House, I seek
unanimous consent to introduce this report to the floor of the
House.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): Is there unanimous
consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
* * *
INCOME TAX ACT
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Canadian Alliance) moved
for leave to introduce Bill C-323, an act to amend the Income Tax
Act (political activities by charities receiving public funds).
He said: Madam Speaker, the bill, when it is finally passed, as
I am sure it will be based on the history of private members'
bills in this place, would disqualify from charitable status
corporations, trusts and organizations that have received
discretionary funding from the public money of Canada or a
province, if they then give direct or indirect support or
endorsement to parties or candidates for election in a federal
election.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
EMPLOYMENT EQUITY ACT
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Canadian Alliance) moved
for leave to introduce Bill C-324, an act to amend the Employment
Equity Act (elimination of designated groups and numerical goals)
and the Canadian Human Rights Act.
He said: Madam Speaker, this is another bill which I am sure
the government will be rushing to pass at the earliest
opportunity.
The enactment would amend the Employment Equity Act to remove
the concept of designated groups and numerical goals and repeal
the employers' reporting requirements to finally put an end to
government sanctioned quotas based on race, which is nothing more
than state sponsored racism and needs to be stopped.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
BROADCASTING ACT
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Canadian Alliance) moved
for leave to introduce Bill C-325, an act to amend the
Broadcasting Act (designation of cable channels).
He said: Madam Speaker, we really should do this one right away
because it gets rid of a terrible irritation for consumers of
cable television, where the CRTC forces suppliers, like Rogers or
Shaw, to reallocate channels on the band of one, channels 2 to
13. It creates great annoyance for consumers.
This would remove the CRTC's power to do that and allow cable
companies to negotiate cable channel positions based on viewer
preferences.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
[Translation]
ANTIPOVERTY ACT
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ) moved for leave to
introduce Bill C-326, the Antipoverty Act.
He said: Madam Speaker, my antipoverty bill proposes to add a
new prohibited ground of discrimination to the Canadian Human
Rights Act, namely social condition.
It also proposes to suggest to parliamentarians that it is
unacceptable that financial institutions refuse to open a bank
account for an individual by reason of insufficient funds. It
further proposes that the Minister of Justice submit an annual
report on poverty in Canada.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
1210
PETITIONS
FREE TRADE AREA OF THE AMERICAS
Mr. Svend Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): Madam Speaker, more
than 18,000 people across Canada, particularly in Quebec, have
signed petitions that I have the honour to present today. These
petitions deal with secret negotiations for a future free trade
area of the Americas, or FTAA, including 34 countries.
The petitioners are asking that all documents pertaining to the
FTAA be made public on or before March 20.
They also say that, if this fair and reasonable request were not
honoured, they would support legitimate and strictly non-violent
means to obtain these documents.
These petitions were written by the alternative group Opération
SalAMI, the Fédération des infirmières du Québec and the group
Rights and Democracy. They were submitted to me, as member of
parliament, as well as to the member for Lac-Saint-Jean.
MCWATTERS PROJECT
Mr. Guy St-Julien (Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
I would like to present a petition signed by residents of
Val-d'Or and workers of the Sigma mine.
The residents of the city of Val-d'Or and of the RCM of the
Vallée de l'Or are asking the government, through its national
highways program, to intervene in the McWatters project for the
Sigma-Lamaque complex on the Trans-Canada Highway, highway 117, in
the municipality of Val-d'Or. The government should reinforce its
presence and increase its activities in mining regions that are
experiencing difficulty in adapting to the new economy.
* * *
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I ask
that all questions be allowed to stand.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
FINANCIAL CONSUMER AGENCY OF CANADA ACT
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-8, an
act to establish the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada and to
amend certain acts in relation to financial institutions, be read
the third time and passed.
Mr. Dick Proctor (Palliser, NDP): Madam Speaker, I am
pleased to take part in the debate in the House today on
financial sector reform. I want to indicate to the House that I
have a time sharing arrangement with my colleague, the hon.
member for Windsor—St. Clair.
Bill C-8 is really a reincarnation of a bill that was introduced
in the last parliament and died on the order paper following
second reading. It purports to implement 57 measures contained
in the June 1999 finance policy paper entitled “Reforming
Canada's Financial Services Sector—A Framework for the Future”.
The paper was the finance minister's response to an extensive
and expensive two year consultation by the MacKay task force on
reforming Canada's financial services sector. The consultation
culminated in the fall of 1998 with a report entitled “Change,
Challenge and Opportunity”. There was a subsequent response by
the Standing Committee on Finance.
[Translation]
One of the positive aspects of this bill is that it expands the
access to the payments system, which is one of our long held
positions in the NDP. This is a measure that increases
competition by allowing insurance companies to offer chequing
and saving accounts and helps credit unions compete by allowing
the creation of a single national entity—
[English]
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): I am sorry to
interrupt the hon. member, but I do not know if he is aware that
the first three speakers have 40 minutes and that those 40
minutes, under the rules of the House, are not divisible unless
we have unanimous consent of the House. Is there unanimous
consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
1215
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): Is the hon. member
aware of that?
Mr. Dick Proctor: I was not aware of that, but I am now.
What you are saying, Madam Speaker, is that I will not be able to
share my time. Just for the record, I stood to speak because
nobody from any other party stood at that time. I thank you for
the clarification.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): I realize the hon.
member stood for that reason. I want to make sure that if he
wants to take advantage of the 40 minutes he can, but he cannot
share his time.
[Translation]
Mr. Dick Proctor: Madam Speaker, I will go on with my speech.
This legislation will help credit unions, designate a financial
services ombudsman, something the NDP has been asking for for a
long time, and create a consumer protection agency, that is
called the financial consumer agency. It will launch a
consultation process whereby the banks could legally be forced
to provide a low fee retail deposit account. This is a position
we have held for a long time in the NDP; however, nothing will
happen in the short term. The bill will formalize a process of
collecting data on small business lending but will not expand
the banks' business powers into the areas of auto leasing.
[English]
These are some of the positive things in the bill. There are
also in the 900 pages many things with which we disagree. Among
those negatives is the wide ownership rules which lead to the
concentration of banking powers in the hands of very few
individuals.
This provides too much power to the Minister of Finance. Unlike
parliament, the minister would then have the final say in
virtually every major change that dealt with financial
institutions, including mergers, acquisitions, regulations and
ownership levels. It also fails to provide a real framework of
accountability between large financial institutions and their
local communities.
There is no community reinvestment act similar to the one in the
U.S. which works very well. There is no effective improvement in
accessing basic banking services, especially in rural areas.
There is no right to lifeline, no cost accounting and no
effective way to stop bank branch closures. Banks are only
required to provide a four to six month window of notice to close
under the legislation.
There are no teeth for the independent banking ombudsman and it
reduces requirements for small banks. The Office of the
Superintendent of Financial Institutions has been given more
powers to deal with the potential for increased risk in the
system, but there is no guarantee that the OSFI would be able to
use these powers effectively because of the complex structures
introduced in the bill, for example bank holdings and new
ownership regimes.
There is nothing on the control and regulation of high risk
derivative products and off balance sheet liabilities or on new
monetary policy tools for the Bank of Canada.
We have dealt with some of the positives and the negatives. We
note as well that it is a highly complex 900 page omnibus bill
which changes eight major financial industry acts and is probably
the largest bill ever to come before a Canadian parliament. Its
main thrust is to increase competition, foreign and domestic, and
flexibility through deregulation and re-regulation.
The Minister of Finance is easing entry requirements in the
financial services market. He is purporting to broaden the
powers of financial institutions including credit unions,
increasing the flexibility and the complexity of ownership
regimes, and allowing access to the payment system by non-bank
entities, for example insurance companies.
The legislation also creates a financial consumer agency, an
independent financial ombudsman.
1220
Bill C-38, its predecessor, included cosmetic measures to
improve access to basic banking services and guidelines for a
bank merger review process which were made available with the
bill but are not included in the current version of the
legislation.
The New Democratic Party opposes the bill. We emphasize that
there is some support, as I have indicated in my remarks. We
support parts of the bill, including the modernization of
financial services, expansion of powers to credit unions, a
potentially better deal for consumers, a better competitive
position for insurance companies, and status quo on the
distribution of insurance and leasing.
We would support the bill at third reading stage if changes to
the wide ownership rules were rescinded, if it provided for more
power to the House of Commons to review megabank mergers and if
the government adopted an effective framework of accountability
among banks, their communities and fully regulated bank holding
groups.
In conclusion, there is quasi-unanimity among major financial
industry players to speed up the passage of the bill which has
incorporated the majority of the MacKay recommendations and has
virtually gone through an invisible committee of backroom
lobbyists. Bill C-8 is a done deal which the government is
selling as a progressive financial consumer package.
Mr. Ken Epp: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I
wonder whether there would be unanimous consent, since the member
used only 10 minutes of his 40 minute allocation, to allocate the
30 minutes to a speaker from the Bloc if he gets here from the
scrums, or to me since I have a lot to say on the bill. Would
there be unanimous consent for that?
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): Is there unanimous
consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Scott Brison (Kings—Hants, PC): Madam Speaker, it is
a pleasure to rise to speak to Bill C-8. The legislation will
have a very important effect on the level and quality of services
available to Canadians and consumers of financial services. It
also has the potential for a significant impact on the
competitiveness of our financial services sector globally.
We are in an increasingly competitive financial services sector
that from a global perspective has become hyper competitive. The
amount of change in the financial services sector in the last 10
years has been greater than the level of change that has occurred
in the entire 150 years preceding that.
In this rapidly changing hyper competitive environment the
government has dragged its feet since 1993. It has avoided
making the necessary updates and improvements to reflect this
reality and the new realities in the financial services sector.
There is very little in the legislation that could not have been
introduced in 1994-95. Instead, the government used every
delaying mechanism at its disposal to wait as long as it possibly
could to introduce the legislation, and that is unfortunate.
Further, the MacKay report of about a year and a half ago
provided an extraordinarily comprehensive and well thought out
long term visionary plan for the financial services sector that
has been butchered by the government. It has selectively chosen
based on political palatability certain elements of the MacKay
task force to recommend.
It has chosen to ignore and to turn a blind eye to many of the
other recommendations which may have been more politically
contentious but would have contributed significantly to improved
competitiveness in our financial services sector and to an
improved environment to create more jobs and opportunities for
Canadians in this sector.
1225
The government has treated the MacKay task force like a buffet
where it could selectively choose from the menu of public policy
options. It chose the various options based on political
criteria, not on economic criteria or on achieving what was best
for Canadians and the financial services sector.
The government has delayed and dithered on this issue for a long
period of time. It is with a pinched nose that the PC Party
supports the legislation because it does not reflect the type of
measures and policies that we believe would harness the power of
the financial services sector in Canada. While it does have some
of the elements that could help to improve the environment for
the financial services sector and create greater levels of wealth
and opportunity for Canadians, it does not go nearly far enough
in many ways.
In 1993 Canada was ahead of the U.S. in terms of deregulating
our financial services sector. Today we have fallen behind the
U.S. With the last vestiges of the Glass-Steagall act gone from
the U.S., American financial services, such as banks and trust
companies, are better positioned to participate in the
opportunities of the 21st century than their Canadian
counterparts.
The government's approach to the financial services sector has
forced Canadian banks to grow in the U.S. and to limit their
growth here in Canada. This is unfortunate because many of the
jobs and opportunities could be here in Canada. I fear that the
government is driving people offshore and limiting opportunities
within our borders.
There has been a significant amount of lost opportunities in the
last couple of years. The last time the issue of bank mergers
was pursued, the finance minister's response in December 1999
closed the door to bank mergers. There was an opportunity for
dialogue between the banks and parliamentarians, and between the
banks and people served by the banks about some of the issues of
concern to Canadians.
Instead of the finance minister taking opportunity to address
those concerns in a constructive way by sitting down with the
banks and negotiating terms that would protect the interests of
Canadian consumers, borrowers and small business people, he
slammed the door shut for short term political reasons. He not
only denied an opportunity for a more efficient financial
services sector, he also denied Canadian consumers the
opportunity to have better, more competitive services well into
the future.
During that time, the Bank of Montreal and the Royal Bank agreed
to several long term commitments which would have given improved
services to consumers. These included doubling the amount of
lending to small businesses and the setting up of a separate bank to
do that, reducing bank service charges, protecting services to
smaller communities and increasing staff in branches.
Instead of taking advantage of these opportunities on behalf of
Canadians, the minister, for political reasons, made a
shortsighted decision. Part of that was to appease the Liberal
caucus witch hunt on banks—I am sorry—the Liberal task force on
banks which constructed the most partisan, poorly written and
researched, short term document ever in the history of
parliament.
Instead, he capitulated to the forces of evil on that side of the
House with its short term, populist, pandering perspective which
denied Canadians the long term opportunity of a stronger
financial services sector and better levels of services to
Canadians.
1230
The Liberals opposite are convenient free marketeers. It is
focus group economics on the other side of the House. It is
whatever is popular this particular week, or month or year.
There was a time when those members opposite campaigned
vociferously against free trade until of course they were
elected. At that point they saw the benefits of free trade and
embraced it. Some would say the government claimed the invention
of free trade in the same way that the former vice president of
the U.S., Al Gore, claimed invention of the Internet. We also
saw that with the GST.
It must be great to be able to go through life unburdened by the
yoke of principle and consistency. Fortunately we on this side
of the House are burdened with the yoke of consistency, principle
and values that may not always be popular but are consistently
well thought out and based on sound values.
This piece of legislation would give the Canadian government a
greater level of intrusion and regulation of the financial
services sector than any other sector or industry in the country.
The government will say that this growth of regulations is good
for consumers, but I would argue this would in the long term cost
Canadian consumers more in the following ways.
First, Canadian bank service charges are competitive globally.
None of us like to pay service charges but the fact is our bank
service charges are competitive. In fact they are lower than
those of American banks. Sometimes it does make sense for us in
this place to deal with reality and not simply perceptions when
we are voting public policy.
Second, this growth of regulation is going to cost a great deal
for financial services players to participate in and to comply
with. Ultimately those costs will be borne by someone. Will
they be borne by shareholders? Perhaps they will in part. I
would argue that ultimately those costs will be borne by
consumers, the very people who the government is claiming to be
trying to protect. Consumers will be paying higher service
charges in order for the financial services institutions to
comply with the government's egregious, oppressive levels of
regulations in this particular area.
Hon. Anne McLellan: Egregious and oppressive.
Mr. Scott Brison: I heard the Minister of Justice
opposite agreeing with my comments and echoing them.
Hon. Anne McLellan: I did not.
Mr. Scott Brison: I recognize that in a sea of ambition
over there she may represent a thimble full of principle. Her
roots are in Hants county, Nova Scotia. She and I share similar
roots. I guess that is where her sudden regaining of the good
common sense of people from the Hants shore prevails here today.
It is great to have her support on my position on this very
important piece of legislation.
Further, the legislation and the government's position and
perspective in dealing with this very important financial
services sector ignores the seven million Canadians who are
shareholders in the Canadian banks. The overwhelming majority of
adults in Canada today in one way or another, either through
their pension funds, unions or mutual funds or through direct
investment, have an ownership in one or more Canadian banks.
The government is not only denying Canadian bank consumers and
the financial services sector consumers the opportunity for
sustainably competitive services, it is also shackling investors
in Canadian financial services entities with a regulatory burden
that is unacceptable.
1235
The government says that it is very important that we regulate
and ensure there is a low cost account provided to Canadians, and
force the banks to provide services to Canadians regardless of
income.
In theory nobody would argue with what the government is trying
to achieve in that sense. If the government is going to actually
embrace this from an ideological perspective, the logical
corollary of this argument would be that the next step for the
government would be to regulate the food companies. That is
Loblaws, Sobey's, et cetera, should have to introduce a new low
cost food provision service to Canadian consumers regardless of
income.
In other words, because of the fact that the government is
forcing Canadian financial services institutions to provide
services to Canadians regardless of their ability to pay, it is
only logical to expect the next step will be that the government
is going to be forcing Canadian grocery distributors and stores
to provide food to Canadians regardless of their ability to pay.
Surely food or the availability of food is more important to
individual Canadians than simply the ability to obtain financial
services.
Shelter is very important too. I would fully expect that the
government is going to be introducing legislation in the coming
months to force real estate developers to provide free apartments
to people, regardless of income, because clearly the government
determines that that is in its best interest based on this
legislation, if we look at it from a logical perspective.
If we are going to go along this route and abdicate any free
market principles that we may still have left, perhaps we should
start at the top with a crown agency. Canada Post should be
giving away free stamps to people if they do not happen to have
the amount of money required to buy a package of stamps.
Clearly the government is going in the wrong direction on this
piece of legislation in many areas from the regulatory
perspective.
That being the case we recognize some of the positive elements
of this legislation, including the ability for greater
flexibility in the financial services sector and greater
opportunities for our Canadian financial services players to
compete and grow. We would like to see those opportunities for
jobs to be created and for shareholder value to grow for
Canadians. We would like to see more of those opportunities.
Unfortunately the government in this hodgepodge legislation,
this buffet style of picking and choosing from those
comprehensive reports like the MacKay report and focusing on the
politically palatable while ignoring any long term consistency or
vision from an industrial strategy perspective for the country,
is giving us a piece of legislation that we will be supporting
with pinched nose.
I know the Minister of Justice agrees with me on this. I know
she as well would like to see a more competitive, stronger
financial services sector in the 21st century, and not one
shackled by the Liberal incompetence in this very important part
of the Canadian economy.
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Canadian Alliance): Madam
Speaker, I listened with interest to the member's speech. He has
perhaps a confused view of the role of government in protecting
the rights of people who deal with banks.
He used an analogy of grocery stores and people who own
apartment buildings being forced to provide facilities. If I am
not mistaken, the legislation does not address that question with
respect to the low cost accounts. It does not state a specific
amount. It simply says that the bank shall provide a low cost
account for people who have limited financial means. He has
perhaps to some degree not fairly represented the purpose of the
statement that was put in the bill in this particular regard.
Would he care to clarify that and perhaps correct his small
error?
1240
Mr. Scott Brison: Madam Speaker, I urge him to look up
the word irony in the dictionary and at the same time to look up
the word humour as well.
The fact is that the legislation provides an unprecedented
opportunity for the Canadian government to intrude in a private
sector environment and tell financial services players what to
charge for various services. My point is, which I would expect
the hon. member would agree with in a more whimsical moment, that
it is analogous and comparable to telling grocery stores what to
charge for their produce or telling real estate developers in
private settings what to do. There is no difference.
Hon. Anne McLellan: Hogwash.
Mr. Scott Brison: I hear again more support from the
Minister of Justice opposite on my point, and I thank her. The
fact is banks are not a utility. That is the first thing we have
to realize. When governments start telling private entities what
to charge for products and services, it is embarking upon a very
slippery slope. I do not think it bodes well for the future of
the free market in the country.
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I must rise in response to
some of the things that I have heard my hon. colleague say here
this afternoon. He has accused the government, I think “of an
oppressive regulatory regime”.
I would like the hon. member to explain to us what he means by
suggesting there is an oppressive regulatory regime in the
country as it relates to financial services? Is the hon. member
suggesting that there should be no regulation in the name of the
public good of financial institutions? If so, I would ask him to
stand in the House and tell the Canadian public who use those
financial institutions that he does not support regulation
thereof.
Mr. Scott Brison: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the hon.
minister's question and her continued support. She mentions
oppressive regulatory burden, and I think that is the key. That
is what I am going to be focusing on in my response.
I will give her another example of oppressive regulatory burden
from the government. That is a gun registration that does not in
any way protect Canadians in their homes or elsewhere. It in
fact adds an immense amount of costs to the Canadian taxpayers'
burden and at the same time treats law-abiding citizens in this
country of ours as if they are criminals, and yet does not
provide any level of protection. That is a position that I am sure
she would like to speak further on and try to defend, but one
cannot defend the untenable.
When the hon. member talks about helping rural communities, I would
remind her of what I, the member for Kings—Hants, did on behalf
of people in Kennetcook in working with the credit union to
ensure there continued to be banking services after the Bank of
Nova Scotia closed its branch there. That is the type of
progressive and co-operative effort that I would urge her to
engage in with me.
I am sure she would appreciate the comparison of the banks'
oppressive, egregious regulatory burden with that of her own
department with Bill C-68. I am certain she would see that this
is a fair comparison because in fact the government, that party,
believes in big government telling Canadians how to run their
lives. My party believes in Canadians' ability to run their own
lives and make their own decisions.
Mr. Richard Harris (Prince George—Bulkley Valley, Canadian
Alliance): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. member
this question. I know he has looked at Bill C-8 quite
extensively. He knows the government has been talking the talk
about giving more flexibility to the credit union movement in
Canada.
1245
Would the hon. member give us his opinion on why the government
voted down a very key amendment which would have provided this
flexibility to credit unions in Canada in spite of the fact the
government has talked about its wish to make this more flexible?
Mr. Scott Brison: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member
for his question. I, at committee, and our party, in the House,
did support that amendment.
While the government talks about wanting to encourage
competition, to encourage the credit unions and the co-operative
movement to compete more fully with banks, this is only a
half-hearted initiative by the government to enable the credit
unions and co-operative movement to do so.
The fundamental tenet of the co-operative movement is very
different from that of the banks. There is a democratic
cornerstone to the co-operative movement that is not reflected in
the government's failure to support that very important
amendment, which would allow credit unions and the co-operative
movement to compete more fully and at the same time not have to
betray the principles of democratic management which have been a
tenet of the co-operative movement since its inception in Canada.
I would suggest that it was a significant mistake for the
government not to support the credit union and co-operative
movement more fully by recognizing the importance of that
movement and allowing and in fact supporting that amendment which
would have made a huge difference in a realistic sense.
Hon. Anne McLellan: Madam Speaker, I have to rise again
to respond to what I can only describe as the outrageous response
to my earlier question. In fact, I think what we see is why the
hon. member's party and other parties are destined to stay in
opposition for a very long time.
As opposed to dealing with and responding to my legitimate
question about his outlandish assertions regarding oppressive
regulation, what does he do? He attacks a program committed to
public safety, a program that derives support from well over 75%
of Canadians.
I would ask the hon. member to get his head out of the sand and
respond to my earlier question. Does he or does he not support
reasonable regulation in the financial services sector?
Mr. Scott Brison: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank
the minister for her question. She is a pretty good questioner
and I hope she is practising, because in four years she will have
an opportunity to be asking members, including some of us here,
questions more regularly, although she will have to hone her
questions significantly to less than 30 seconds.
Hon. Anne McLellan: Answer the question.
Mr. Scott Brison: I would suggest that her preambles—
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): I guess it is Friday
again. I would like to caution hon. members about impugning
motives in terms of questions and answers. The hon. member for
Kings—Hants still has 49 seconds to answer the question.
Mr. Scott Brison: Madam Speaker, I do thank the minister
for her question. It is interesting, and perhaps unprecedented
in this parliament, to have members of the government looking for
answers to questions, because we have been trying to get answers
to questions on some very important fundamental issues and the
government has not provided us with any answers on these issues.
The minister mentioned regulations again. I think it is
important to get back to Bill C-68, the gun legislation that is
costing the Canadian taxpayers now upward of $1 billion that
could be going into health care, that could be providing rural
services, that could provide the money to—
Hon. Anne McLellan: Answer the question.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Grant McNally: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. It seems as though the Minister of Justice would like to
ask a few more questions of the opposition. I am wondering if we
could have unanimous consent to extend the question period so the
Minister of Justice may ask my hon. colleague one or two more
questions.
1250
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): Is there unanimous
consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques,
BQ): Madam Speaker, it is a great pleasure to take part today
at third reading stage in the debate on Bill C-8, an act to
establish the financial consumer agency of Canada and to amend
certain acts in relation to financial institutions.
What we have before the House is a major piece of legislation
concerning the overall structure of the banking system in Canada
and all the operations of our financial institutions.
This bill deserves our full attention. It is the result of a lot
of hard work that started when the Minister of Finance announced
the mandate and membership of the Task Force on the Future of
the Canadian Financial Services Sector on December 18, 1996.
This bill is the result of an extensive consultation process. We
finally have a bill we find acceptable after making significant
representations and winning on a number of points concerning the
implementation of the bill.
This bill deals with major issues such as the banking sector. It
deals with changes to the rules governing bank ownership, with
bank holding companies and with the whole issue of foreign
banks.
With globalization, deregulation and new developments, it was
important to review the bill. This is what this legislation does
in a major way.
However, the Bloc Quebecois had major concerns regarding the
treatment of banks with assets of less than $5 billion. We have
one of those in Quebec: the National Bank. It may not be the
biggest bank in Canada but it is the biggest one in Quebec. We
wanted to ensure it would be adequately protected under the act.
The first version of the bill, introduced before the election,
contained no provisions to this effect. I believe our
representations helped, since we were opposed to Bill C-8 which
gave
the Minister of Finance too much power over the future of banks.
In the first bill, there was no guarantee that he would take
into consideration the specificity of Quebec's financial system.
The member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve rose to say that we wished
there were in this bill important additional provisions
allowing community reinvestment by the banks. The United States
has such legislation, and it has yielded interesting results.
We do not have this type of adjustment. People living in regions
have seen in recent years a reduction of the number of bank
branches. We have noticed that the services provided to
customers, namely credit services, are not always those we
should expect from a competitive system. We would have liked the
bill to provide for greater competition.
After several representations, in particular by my colleague the
member for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, who kept a close eye on the
federal government, the finance minister and the parliamentary
secretary with respect to this issue, the government established
guidelines on the reclassification of the banks previously
listed in schedule I with an equity capital of less than $5
billion. This is the case of the National Bank.
We would have liked to see these guidelines in the bill. At
least, they now exist. They have been published by the
Department of Finance and will have to be taken into
consideration when decisions are made about the ownership of
this type of bank.
Under these guidelines, the Minister of Finance may reclassify
such banks in restricted ownership categories. The guidelines
set out the framework for the review of transactions requiring
reclassification.
A certain number of factors are identified, which will have to
be taken into consideration by the minister when he has to make
a decision following a transaction dealing with the ownership of
a bank.
1255
For example, the cost-effectiveness and objectives of the
proposal would be analysed. Consideration would also be given to
the impact of protecting the proposed transaction on the
security and soundness of the bank, on direct and indirect
employment, on the location of the centre of decision making and
management of the bank, on the needs of consumers, on the
business and activities of the bank and on the future prospects
of the bank in world markets.
In other words, there are a series of criteria which will oblige
the Minister of Finance to consider all these issues when making
his decision.
This means that the people working at the National Bank, its
owners and shareholders, will have to ensure that these
guidelines are observed because Quebecers want this bank to
continue to serve Quebecers.
In the case of transactions the Minister of Finance will have
to ask questions to determine whether there is sufficient
protection for direct and indirect employment and where the
bank's centre of decision making and management is located.
In this connection, I will digress for a moment. Our arguments
have also contributed to a debate within the National Bank,
which has adopted administrative rules to protect itself against
a hostile takeover, a takeover not wanted by its shareholders.
These people took a stand on this issue and on the issue of the
bank's head office.
Thus, in this respect, not only through Bill C-8 but also
through the way the bank has responded to adopt a responsible
attitude, it now seems to us that the necessary protections are
there to protect this type of bank and particularly the
National Bank in Quebec.
One of the other major criteria that are particularly a cause
for concern for me and that the minister will have to consider
when he determines the value of the transaction, is the
interests of Canadians and, when the institution is operating
mainly in a region, the interests of the people in the region.
We know what the word region means to the federal government.
Usually, it means Ontario, Quebec, western Canada or the
Atlantic.
In this regard, it will have to consider the interests of the
people of Quebec, if ever there were a transaction relating to
the National Bank.
We wish this had been included in the legislation, instead of
being covered simply by guidelines, since we do not know who the
finance minister will be in a few years. We do not know what
pressure he will be under. We know the value and the strength of
lobbies here in Ottawa, particularly in terms of our funding
rules. This allows for very strong lobbies.
In the past, we have seen banks make very large contributions,
especially to traditional parties. We hope that through these
guidelines the bill, once enacted, will provide adequate
protection to small and medium size banks within Canada.
As I said earlier, this is major legislation because it deals
not only with the banks but also with all other financial
institutions. As concerns the protection of savers and
investors, this bill contains interesting features.
We have proposed many amendments but they have not been
selected. I want to put them on the record so that people will
know that the Bloc Quebecois took to heart the protection of
their interests.
I will say a word later about community reinvestment. In the
last parliament my colleague for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve
introduced a bill on community reinvestment, and he also tried
to have the content of his bill included in Bill C-8.
Unfortunately, the government refused.
There is always room for improvement and I am sure my
colleague, with his great tenacity, will find other ways to
ensure that financial institutions assume their social
responsibilities.
When I hear about the profits our banks make throughout Canada,
I think we should look at what they do and see whether financial
benefits in the regions where they operate are high enough. In
the same vein, I think we should legislate in order to have the
power to make an assessment of the situation and to require of
the banks that they correct the problems, or perhaps establish
criteria, a code of conduct or procedures that would go beyond
what exists now.
1300
Bank branches have disappeared year after year in my area.
Having made a lot of money with our people for
many years, when they do not meet the levels of profitability
demanded by the shareholders, not because they are in deficit
but because they are not meeting the levels of profitability
anymore, the banks get rid of their staff, their facilities and
their branches. This is always hard on the regions.
When we want to negotiate a loan for a small or medium size
business at the regional level, it is always better to talk to
somebody we know, somebody who understands our business.
I do not think that we can say that we are really happy with the
Canadian banking system in that respect.
Let me go back to the proposed amendments. For example, we
suggested limiting the number of boards a director is allowed to
sit on at any one time. The House certainly understands from the terms
of this amendment that we want to ensure, in all logic, that
power and financial decision making capacity is not excessively
concentrated in the hands of a few.
We were also talking about an amendment on the suppression of
potential conflicts of interests between board members and those
who supply goods and services to the institution. This is also
self-explanatory.
Amendments also provided for the requirement to submit financial
statements for review and discussion during the annual
shareholders' meeting.
Hon. members know that the banks' small shareholders are more
and more interested in having a say in decision making. They do
not want to just sign proxy letters; they want to be able to
influence decisions, even if they are only minority
shareholders. We want them to be able to have a voice. The
purpose of this amendment was to enhance their powers.
There was also talk of making shareholder presentations for
approval of the officers' remuneration policy.
This too is in line with the banks' social vocation. When we
heard of inordinately high salaries being paid to people who may
have generated substantial financial profits, but did so at the
expense of the bank workers, with more than 1,000, 2,000 or
5,000 jobs cut to maximize profits, while officers were getting
considerable salary increases, we figured it would be extremely
appropriate to bring in an amendment. It did not make its way
into the bill however. There was one but it was rejected. We
feel it ought to have been part of this bill.
There was also talk of proposing a code of procedure for
shareholders' meetings, a requirement for companies to make a
full report of each and every shareholders' meeting to be sent
to each shareholder, all with a view to improving the
transparency of the banking system.
All of these amendments would have made this bill even better
and given it more transparency. They were rejected, and the way
it was done strikes us as improper. We do not question the
pertinence of the bill, but the amendments would have made it possible
to make the bill a more significant one.
I will say a bit more about community investment.
It is based on the banks' social responsibility to the
community. It is still not a part of C-8, despite the comments
by the Bloc and, as I was saying earlier, the member for
Hochelaga—Maisonneuve.
He proposed important objectives for the bill, including having
the banks analyze their operations, their systems, their rules
and their practices and measure the spread between deposits and
loans to designated persons in a given community. This way one
can see the economic impact a bank has on a community, its
relevance, and assess whether it has fulfilled its social role
and table a report on the remedial action to be taken. The
superintendent of financial institutions should have been
required to propose assessment criteria to promote
implementation of the concept of community reinvestment.
This is therefore a positive contribution that could have been
made to the bill but that the government rejected. It still
seems relevant to us but unfortunately it was rejected.
I would like to remind members of something my colleague from
Hochelaga—Maisonneuve said: “There are whole communities where
banks are pointedly absent and, when they are present, there is
a real problem of availability of banking services for low
income individuals that only the passage of legislation will
correct”.
1305
I congratulate him on his very accurate view of what goes on
throughout Quebec. The member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve is from
an urban centre, where the problem of people with limited
incomes accessing banking services must certainly be an issue.
This quote shows as well that he is informed on the situation
throughout Quebec, in the regions, and that a member from the
Montreal area can be very much aware of the situation throughout
Quebec. This quote reflects that. This is what I was saying
earlier. In Quebec, the problem is often one of not finding
bank branches any more.
We hope that Bill C-8 will at least solve the competition problem
to provide for good competition and adequate services in our
regions. However, it will not solve the issue of community
reinvestment because the government refused to act on it.
In this regard, we could say that market forces do not support
economic growth. The community is less competitive when there
are community disinvestment.
In the end, a community where investment ceases to flow is a
community where there is no capital movement. When capital
movement slows down because banks invest the money from the
checking and saving accounts of the people in other regions, the
population of the affected community loses out.
Overall, the bill will change and update the banking system and
all the other financial institutions. I think that it includes
many positive aspects. It results from relatively broad
consultations. We had major concerns regarding the protection of
banks like the National Bank, but thanks to our pressing
demands, the Minister of Finances produced guidelines to protect
them.
Even though they are not included in the bill, these guidelines
represent an improvement that will ensure an adequate level of
protection. We also think that the banks themselves can take
steps to improve the situation.
However, we think that the government could have taken this
opportunity to make the administration of banks and the
functioning of boards of directors more transparent.
We are sorry that these amendments were rejected. We are also
sorry that our amendments on community investment were not
accepted. However, we believe that overall it is a good piece
of legislation which deserves our support.
When proposed
measures seem positive the Bloc Quebecois is happy to support
them. In the last parliament I think that we, in the Bloc
Quebecois, were the ones who most often supported the
government when we deemed it appropriate to do so. We know how
to address the real issues people are faced with in their
everyday lives. When we disagree, we say so, hoping to find
interesting solutions.
To end the week on a bill such as this one is a lot more
interesting than the general attitude shown by the Liberal
government this week. For example, we had to set the record
straight on Thursday. During statements by members the member
for Laval East said that we had not spoken about the vast police
offensive against criminal biker gangs when the previous day,
the same day the police operation was carried out, the member
for Berthier—Montcalm had made a statement on that very subject.
It seems that the Liberal majority is not paying much attention
to the debates, as evidenced by the fact that yesterday
afternoon, throughout oral question period, the majority kept
telling us that the opposition was not interested in the real
issues, that its only concern was the Auberge Grand-Mère.
Half an hour later, when the question was put on a motion, the
Liberal majority was unable to find enough members to ensure
continuation of House proceedings.
As far as I am concerned, this clearly demonstrates how
irresponsible the Liberal majority is. We taught them a good
lesson. Even from the opposition side, the Bloc Quebecois can
address the real issues like the integrity of the Prime
Minister. We are also able to consider any other problem coming
our way, and we do so. We make representations. We make our
points forcefully. We believe the House of Commons should be
taken seriously, should hold real debates.
1310
This is why I think we should conclude consideration of Bill C-8
this afternoon. It will give some sense to the House business. I
hope Liberal members will go home this weekend and acknowledge
that they made a serious mistake in believing that they could
determine for the House of Commons what the important issues
are. However, I think that the people of Quebec and of Canada
need to be sure that their Prime Minister is honest but also
that other problems are being dealt with. So I hope the
Liberals have learned their lesson for the week.
Mr. Jean-Yves Roy (Matapédia-Matane, BQ): Madam Speaker, I heard
my colleague from Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques
talking about community reinvestment.
In my region and my riding, we have just experienced the closing
of two branches of a major financial institution in two
important centres, Matane and Amqui.
I would like to ask him a question on a point that I am very
interested in, because these two regions are going through a
crisis at this time. What happens when a financial institution
leaves a town with bank accounts, with depositors' money, and
transfers this money to another town? What does it mean for a
town to lose a significant amount of money, a lot of capital,
when it is already in a difficult financial situation?
I ask my colleague to elaborate.
Mr. Paul Crête: Madam Speaker, I am happy that the hon. member
for Matapédia—Matane is actually giving us a very specific
example of the reality I was describing in my speech. Matane and
Amqui are small towns, and when a number of jobs are lost
because a bank branch is closed, there is a major impact. In a
large city, this could translate into the loss of hundreds of
jobs.
I think the solution was to be found partly in the proposal of
the hon. member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve. He wanted to ensure
control of community reinvestment by banks. I believe this could
have been an objective of this bill. It could have led to an
interesting solution.
I also hope that Bill C-8 once passed will allow greater
competition in the banking system, thus forcing banks to finally
have more respect for their clients.
I would also challenge people as shareholders, as bank clients,
not to be afraid of making representations to see where their
capital is going and how it is used, to really be actors more
than spectators, in the development of the financial situation
in their region.
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Madam Speaker,
in our caucus and in the House, the hon. member for
Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques is an asset. He
makes a brilliant contribution to our debates. I hope the
Minister of Justice has understood these recommendations, and
that she also understands what I am saying.
I have two questions for my colleague. Does he think it is
possible that the pattern of lack of banking services in Canada
is a reflection of the geographic distribution of poverty?
I am very disappointed with the Chair, Madam Speaker, but not
with you in particular. I am very disappointed that my
amendments, which had been accepted previously, have not been
accepted this time. Some day, in fact, we should discuss with
the Chair about the excessive role given to traditions from the
United Kingdom. But that is another matter.
Does my colleague agree with me that as parliamentarians we
cannot really fight poverty if we do not secure access to
financial services for all Canadians? I am sure that in Alberta,
where the Minister of Justice was re-elected with a comfortable
majority, banks are also closing some branches.
1315
Just this morning, I tabled an antipoverty bill, which brings me
to my second point. I hope we will be able to count on the
support of the Minister of Justice—who is spending a lot of time
in the gymnasium with me—to amend the role of the Canadian Human
Rights Commission and to recognize that social condition must be
included in the Canadian Human Rights Act.
Does my colleague believe that including “social condition” as a
prohibited ground of discrimination could make a difference for
the poor in this country?
With the unanimous consent of the House, the justice minister
could be given two minutes to answer.
The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Bakopanos): I am sorry, I believe the
question was for the hon. member for
Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques.
Mr. Paul Crête: Madam Speaker, I listened with interest to the
question from my colleague from Hochelaga—Maisonneuve. There is
indeed a direct connection between the presence of banks and
economic development.
We should perhaps hearken back to what happened in the early
20th century. Mr. Desjardins, a former clerk of the House, came
to the realization that small investors had no way of maximizing
their savings, and this led to the creation of the Dejardins
movement.
Its creation was prompted by the inability of the banking system
of the day to meet the needs of small investors, people with
only a small amount of capital. Now, in the early days of
another century, the solution to the problem lies perhaps in the
proposal we have made relating to community reinvestment.
If we have not managed to convince the Liberal majority to
include this in the bill, the banking system might perhaps
develop a code for itself, to show the public that they can
achieve the same result on their own. I have some doubts that
this would be something it will impose on itself. I think the
hon. member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve needs to continue his
action, to continue to call for legislation to be put in place.
Nevertheless, I call upon those in charge of the banking system
to do it for themselves.
As for the second question, on making social condition one of
the grounds for discrimination prohibited the Canadian Human Rights
Commission, this strikes me as a good approach to ensure a solid
foundation which any subsequent legislation will have to take
into account.
As we saw with the human rights charter and with basic documents
of that type, this can have an impact. Sometimes it suits our
needs and sometimes it does not. If the suggestion of the hon.
member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve was implemented, we as a society
would ultimately benefit. Social condition is an important issue
that deserves to be taken into consideration to ensure that it
is not an accepted grounds of discrimination, but rather
something that drives us to amend the legislation and provide
equal opportunities to everyone in our society.
[English]
Mr. Joe Comartin (Windsor—St. Clair, NDP): Madam
Speaker, I have worked extensively with the credit union movement
in Windsor and across Ontario. Looking at the legislation I
cannot help but wonder if more could have been done to facilitate
the development of the credit union movement outside Quebec in a
way that mirrors the success the Desjardins movement has had in
that province.
Could my hon. friend from the Bloc suggest improvements to the
legislation that would help the credit union movement across
Canada duplicate the successes that have occurred in Quebec with
that movement?
1320
[Translation]
Mr. Paul Crête: Madam Speaker, the Desjardins movement is
indeed a very good example of how to provide adequate services
to people, through co-op or credit unions, as they exist in other
regions of Canada.
I would invite the hon. member to take a look at the relevant
legislation prepared by the Quebec National Assembly. For years
now, this legislation has allowed the Desjardins movement to
develop, to become increasingly competitive and to face the bank
network; thus helping to create a better balance between the
financial interests that govern the banking world and the more
social or personnel interests of community groups.
For us, the Desjardins movement is a good policy insurance.
Again, the hon. member should take a look at the legislation,
and he should also meet officials from Desjardins to help them
improve their contacts with co-operatives in the other provinces,
so that all Canadians can benefit.
[English]
Mr. Ken Epp (Elk Island, Canadian Alliance): Madam
Speaker, I am both pleased and somewhat distressed to speak on
the bill today. The reason I am distressed is that after a long
week of sleep deprivation I am not my usual bubbly self. I am
struggling with a sore throat and other things. I feel sorry for
myself and I am sure the Speaker does too.
Today we are dealing with Bill C-8. I have estimated that to
read the bill would take 15 hours. If one were to read it with
meaning, in other words read it to understand what is going on
and actually verify some of its claims, it would take many more
hours.
It is a huge undertaking for us today to go through Bill C-8, an
act to establish the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada. The
bill would basically set up the way financial institutions in the
country are run.
On balance I support the bill, although I definitely have
concerns. Ever since 1992 when the then Conservative government
changed the rules for banks, there has been a need for revisions
and for our banking sector to, if I can use the phrase, get with
the times and be able to compete in the international market.
In a sense the bill is much overdue. The government moved very
slowly in that regard. To make matters worse, in June 2000, not
quite a year ago, the government introduced Bill C-38 in first
reading. The bill then sat there and the government basically
did nothing about it. It did not call for a debate on the bill in the
House. It was a very slow process.
Then, to our chagrin, there was a totally unnecessary election
in the fall which caused a great number of bills to drop off the
order paper. The bills were enveloped into nothingness with the
call of the election. The election was called for only one
purpose, and that was a political purpose. The business of the
country and helping our financial institutions with a new bill
took a secondary position to the Prime Minister's overriding goal
of getting yet another mandate. That seems to be so important to
the Liberals, hanging on to power.
In retrospect we see that it was a good strategy, politically
speaking. It is very much in keeping with a cartoon I saw in
which the Prime Minister is shown reading a newspaper that says
“Liberals have overwhelming third majority government”. The
Prime Minister is saying to the people reading the cartoon “That
is the best $200 million of your money that I ever spent”.
1325
It is incredible that the government could drop all the business
of the country and hold an unnecessary election one and a half
years early, an election which cost the taxpayer $200 million and
was conducted strictly and totally for political reasons. The
Prime Minister wanted to win and did not care what it cost.
This bill along with many others was dropped and has now been
resumed. It is interesting that Bill C-38 became with a few
technical changes Bill C-8. If I wanted to reluctantly
compliment the government I would thank it for bringing the bill
back to the House with some urgency and allowing us to debate the
issues in it.
Previous speakers, including my colleague from Prince
George—Bulkley Valley, have spent quite a bit of time talking
about the structure that is involved. It comes under the broad
topic of having a bank we can trust. I really think that is
important.
From my life experience and from having been on
the finance committee studying this bill and other issues, it is
my view that
Canada is richly blessed with a financial system that is strong
and trustworthy in the big picture.
In other words, we do not have a great deal of fear about our
banks collapsing or about financial transactions not being
completed in a timely fashion. As a matter of fact, and I do not
believe this should be addressed in legislation, we should have a
website where people can post their complaints about the banks
for everyone in the country to see, unfiltered by the press. That
would give huge accountability to the banks.
As a member of parliament I receive complaints, not many but
some, about the banks. It says something about our post office
that these days I receive more complaints about the banks than
about the post office. Neither type of complaint is huge in
number, although some are of significance to the people who visit
their members of parliament on an issue. However by and large
our banks are trustworthy and we can count on them.
We have a banking system in which we can conduct financial
transactions and know that everything will work
clickety-clickety-click. It is all very smooth. It is a well
structured organization. That is due to the combined efforts of
the Bank of Canada, which has been well run during the last
number of years, and the individual banks that have taken their
responsibilities very seriously.
I have a question for the banks if any of them happen to be
listening. If I get a cash advance on a Friday it is posted
within two seconds, but if I make a payment on that same advance
I do not get the credit until the next banking day. Sometimes it
takes two days if it is a weekend. I wonder why that is.
The banks should be consistent. If I bring a cheque to the bank
I know it has the capability of cashing it and doing the
electronic transaction immediately.—
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): The hon. member will
have 11 and a half minutes when we resume debate on the bill.
[Translation]
It being 1.30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the
consideration of Private Members' Business as listed on today's
order paper.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
1330
[English]
HEPATITIS AWARENESS MONTH ACT
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP) moved that Bill C-243, an act to provide for a
Hepatitis Awareness Month, be read the second time and referred
to a committee.
He said: Madam Speaker, it gives me great pleasure after three
and a half years of researching, studying and working with
activists to finally bring the bill for debate before the House
of Commons.
I wish to thank the following people for their tireless efforts
in promoting hepatitis awareness throughout Canada and the world.
Mr. Bruce DeVenne and Mr. Neil van Deusen of Nova Scotia have
been tireless in their efforts to bring an understanding of the
effects of the disease to parliamentarians and to all Canadians.
I also thank Mr. Joey Haché from Ottawa who is one of the bravest
young men I have ever met and the House of Commons has ever met.
Joey and his father, Joe Haché, are with us today and we thank
them very much for coming.
Joey Haché has been very effective in raising the profile of
hepatitis throughout the country on his bicycle tour across
Canada. He has sent numerous e-mails and faxes to high schools
and school groups advising children about the terrible effects of
hepatitis and how it can be prevented. The House and the country
owe young Joey a debt of gratitude.
I also thank the hon. Pat Binns, premier of Prince Edward
Island. Through the efforts of young Joey Haché and myself to
bring this issue to the attention of Mr. Binns, he and the
legislature, without further ado, moved an enactment to make the
month of May hepatitis awareness month in P.E.I. We are now
trying to do that in the entire country.
We have breast cancer month, cancer awareness month and various
months that are designated to bring awareness to the population
as a whole. Hepatitis is a disease that is serious enough that
parliamentarians at all levels and of all political stripes
should do what they can to raise its awareness so that people
will not be inflicted with it as they go through life.
I will now give more information about hepatitis. There are
seven forms of hepatitis in the world today. Canada's first
nations are at the highest risk of contracting hepatitis either
through blood contact, sexual contact or, what is most
frightening, drinking water.
Everyone knows what happened in Walkerton. Had the people of
Walkerton been aware that they may contract hepatitis through
their drinking water, the fear would have been even greater.
Everyone is concerned about contracting hepatitis from drinking
water, from sexual contact or from blood contact. Seven
different forms of hepatitis can be contracted through these
means. It is estimated that almost half a billion people in the
world today may have one form of hepatitis or another.
When I began the debate on hepatitis three and a half years ago,
my neighbour came over and told me that she had hepatitis. When
I lived in the Yukon, some personal friends of mine called me and
said that they had hepatitis. It makes me wonder how many other
people in Canada have it?
It is estimated that over 700,000 Canadians are inflicted with
one form of hepatitis or another. It is one of the most widely
spread diseases and yet it is very rarely debated or talked
about, except for hepatitis C which has been discussed at great
length, not only in parliament but throughout the country.
1335
However there are six other forms of hepatitis. What is
frightening is the number of people who have hepatitis. There
are approximately 50,000 people who are unaware that they have
hepatitis. Some people find out when they go to their doctor for
a blood check or medical treatment. It is very frightening that
over 50,000 Canadians are unaware that they may have hepatitis.
We are not asking the government for any money or to stop all
the business of the nation and just concentrate on this one
issue. We are asking to make the month of May hepatitis
awareness month and proclaim it through the House of Commons.
That is not very difficult. The reason is that it is only
through education and awareness that the disease will stop being
spread as easily as it is now.
In all the things we do in life, awareness of a particular
disease and education about the particular disease are extremely
beneficial to unsuspecting people throughout Canada and the
world. There are about six billion people on the planet and half
a billion of them have one form of hepatitis or another. It is
spreading because many people are basically ignorant of the
disease itself.
It is extremely frightening. Some people find their daily lives
hardened by this terrible disease, hepatitis C or the other
forms. They really have to struggle. I consider myself
extremely healthy. By the grace of God, I am very lucky because
I do not have a disease like that. Nor do any of my family
members. However I cannot help thinking about the over 700,000
Canadians who do.
In the previous parliament I passed around the bill and received
100 signatures in one day. I had over 60 members on the
government side sign the bill willingly because they knew people
who have hepatitis in their ridings. The official opposition
signed it willingly, as well as the Bloc, the Conservatives and
ourselves.
It was not a political motive. We are not discussing this issue
because of politics. We are discussing it so that all
parliamentarians can say to the nation that we recognize
hepatitis is a terrible disease and thus will make the month of
May hepatitis awareness month, just the same way we do with
breast cancer month in October.
There is not a person in the House, either elected or working,
who is not proud to wear the pink ribbon for breast cancer. We
all know some women and we all have a mother in our lives. Some
of us are fortunate to be married to a lovely woman like I am. I
have two beautiful daughters and I am very concerned about them
ever getting breast cancer, so the attention we pay to it is very
important.
Another concern out there is hepatitis, and that is why I bring
it forward. Many people over the years have contacted me through
the e-mail system or knocked on my door and said that they have
hepatitis. They ask me what they can do to promote awareness and
education in terms of this terrible disease. I tell them to
contact their members of parliament and their members of the
legislature or house of assembly, wherever the case may be. I
ask them to tell their counsellors, neighbours, doctors or anyone
they speak to in order to get the idea across that hepatitis can
be easily transmitted through blood, sexual contact or drinking
water. Everybody should know about the effects of this terrible
disease. Maybe then we can stop it from spreading.
It is too late for the over 700,000 Canadians who have it now.
It will be too late for the over 50,000 Canadians who do not
suspect they have it. However through awareness and education we
can eradicate this disease. I have been an optimistic person all
my life and we have the technology to help eradicate this
disease. Several drugs companies have contacted me and said that
they would like to help to assist in eradicating this disease.
They would like to disseminate promotional materials throughout
the country
I ask the government to assist in terms of proclaiming the month
of May hepatitis awareness month.
If we do that it will show Canadians that we recognize hepatitis
is a terrible disease, especially after what happened yesterday.
I am just as guilty as anyone for entering into the fray and for
showing Canadians how silly parliamentarians can be sometimes. I
apologize to my constituents and to the House for my own
behaviour.
1340
We have a chance to put that behind us and to move forward. We
can say to those people who are inflicted with hepatitis that
this House of parliament has a heart. It does care and we can
proclaim the month of May hepatitis awareness month.
Unfortunately the bill is not votable as I have to wait my turn
and it was not made votable. I welcome comments from fellow
colleagues at the conclusion of my remarks and I hope to make the
bill votable. I will be moving that motion at the end of the
debate.
I thank colleagues who have come to me and discussed this issue
with me, especially the former health critic for the Alliance who
is extremely aware that this disease is very frightening. All
members are aware of what we can do by educating people to be
more aware of this terrible disease.
It was Mr. Bruce DeVenne of Lower Sackville, one of my
constituents, who brought it to my attention. He came to me, not
in a panic, a rush or condemning me or anyone else, but to
educate me. I cannot thank him enough for that. Mr. DeVenne,
Mr. van Deusen and Mr. Joe Haché have diplomatically shown me
that there are ways we can work together to put political
differences aside and move forward.
I even thank the hon. Mike Harris, premier of Ontario, who
addressed this issue very quickly. I thank the other provincial
premiers who addressed the issue as well, but we need to do more.
It is quite simple. If we can make the month of May hepatitis
awareness month, then quite possibly we can eradicate disease in
the near future. We have to think of the children because if we
do this for them then we can give them a better life and a world
free of diseases.
I know that sounds holistic and it may not happen. The
government has been active in terms of financial contributions to
the department of health. It has been working on one form of
hepatitis, but we need to go a bit further and it does not cost
any money.
All it takes is for members to stand and say that they support
the bill and that they will make May hepatitis awareness month.
Then we can tell Joe Haché, Neil van Deusen, Bruce DeVenne, their
families and friends, and those 700,000 Canadians who have the
disease that we recognize they have a terrible disease. We can
tell them that education and awareness is the way to go and we as
parliamentarians will do what we can to assist them in trying to
eradicate this disease.
It has been over three and a half years since I first introduced
the bill. Many members have signed the bill to make it votable
and to move it forward. I will ask again at the end of the
debate to make the bill votable.
I welcome remarks from my colleagues in this non-political
debate. If we do this we will be doing a world of good for over
700,000 Canadians who are afflicted with hepatitis.
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I take this opportunity to
speak about the important issue of hepatitis. I commend the hon.
member for Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore for his
efforts to declare the month of May hepatitis awareness month. I
support the principle behind the bill notwithstanding that it has
been deemed not votable. I am sure all members appreciate the
value of various awareness months.
All hon. members would agree that awareness months raise the
profile of a particular issue and thus public education
opportunities.
1345
Greater awareness about hepatitis will help to create a
compassionate and caring public environment for those infected or
affected by this disease.
[Translation]
I agree entirely with the member who said that awareness months
for different causes or illnesses are a very effective way of
raising public awareness on those issues.
I would now like to talk about some particular aspects of
hepatitis. Hepatitis is an inflammation of the liver, mostly
caused by one of the five viruses called virus A, B, C, D and E.
It was noted that about 90% of acute hepatitis cases in Canada
are caused by viruses A, B or C.
Hepatitis A can cause a liver inflammation, which can become
serious but is mild in most cases and disappears fairly rapidly.
This inflammation is propagated by contamination of hands, food
and water. This is why the virus spreads more easily in areas
where sanitary conditions are poor.
[English]
Unlike hepatitis A, hepatitis B is not spread by contaminated
food or water. In Canada, as in western Europe and the U.S.,
the majority of infections are acquired during young adulthood by
injection drug use and sexual activity.
Although acute hepatitis B continues to be an important clinical
problem in Canada, the majority of acute cases will clear
spontaneously. Chronic infection accounts for the greatest
burden of disease. There are an estimated 250,000 persons who
have chronic hepatitis B infection in Canada.
[Translation]
I would like to take the rest of my time to talk about hepatitis
C and the initiatives taken by Health Canada to deal with this
serious public health problem.
Hepatitis C is a virus that can be transmitted by blood; it
infects the liver and can cause serious damage.
[English]
Although some people may experience symptoms such as fatigue and
jaundice, many others have no symptoms following initial
infection. The hepatitis C virus progresses slowly in the body.
Symptoms can take 20 to 30 years to appear after initial
infection.
Having said that, the federal government, specifically Health
Canada, committed $50 million over five years in September 1998
to develop and design a prevention, support and research program
for Canadians living with hepatitis C.
[Translation]
Moreover, over the next 20 years, the government will transfer
$300 million to provincial and territorial governments so that
they provide these people with the medical care they need. That
financial assistance will ensure that no Canadian, wherever he
or she may live, has to pay for the health care and treatment
required.
The hepatitis C program encompasses support for health care and
treatment. This component is aimed at increasing awareness about
hepatitis C by providing a better understanding of this disease
and the related risk factors.
Prevention and community support are also components of the
prevention, support and research program for Canadians living
with hepatitis C.
The community support component includes dozens of programs,
hundreds of initiatives aimed at supporting both a strong
community response to the needs of persons infected or affected
by hepatitis C and a substantial role for community
organizations involved in the area.
Moreover, the program supports targeted projects aimed at
preventing transmission of hepatitis C to people not currently
infected, particularly those with a high risk level, especially
injection drug users and young people, for whom risks are high.
[English]
This component has funded 27 research projects and 11 training
and salary awards through the Canadian Institutes of Health
Research and has contributed toward the endowed research chair in
liver diseases at the University of Manitoba health sciences
centre foundation.
1350
Health Canada already supports the Canadian Liver Foundation
declaration of “Help Fight Liver Disease Month” for the month
of March. Hepatitis C is one of the viruses that can cause liver
disease, and Health Canada is a major sponsor of the first
Canadian conference on hepatitis C which will be held in Montreal
in May 2001.
[Translation]
The Canadian Hemophilia Society, the Hepatitis C Society of
Canada, the Canadian Liver Foundation and other non-profit
organizations all work in co-operation with Health Canada to
ensure that this conference will be beneficial for Canadians.
In conclusion, members will no doubt have realized that the
cause of hepatitis in general, and of hepatitis C in particular,
is among the first priorities of Health Canada and of this
government. The government devotes much attention to this
disease and its various forms.
We wish to congratulate the member for Sackville—Musquodoboit
Valley—Eastern Shore for having taken the initiative, over the
years and again now, to promote this bill and hence this
debate, which will have helped once again, at least I hope, to
focus public attention on the risks of this terrible disease and
on the damage it can cause.
GOVERNMENTS ORDERS
[English]
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE ACT
BILL C-2—NOTICE OF TIME ALLOCATION
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. An
agreement could not be reached under the provisions of Standing
Orders 78(1) and 78(2) with respect to the report stage and the
third reading stage of Bill C-2, an act to amend the Employment
Insurance Act and the Employment Insurance (Fishing) Regulations.
Under the provisions of Standing Order 78(3), I give notice that
a minister of the crown will propose at the next sitting a motion
to allot a specific number of days or hours for the consideration
and disposal of proceedings at the said stages.
That being said, negotiations are still under way. There is at
least the possibility of an agreement to a format. It is just
that it was difficult to achieve it by the end of the day today.
I do not want the House to think that negotiations are not
continuing. They are, and even though I am now giving this
notice I hope the negotiations will come to fruition at least as
is possible.
Such being the case, I would not be moving the motion on Monday.
Instead, I would be moving the motion that there has been a
majority party agreement, which is still possible at least in
theory. I wanted to notify members of that as well.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[English]
HEPATITIS AWARENESS MONTH ACT
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-243,
an act to provide for a Hepatitis Awareness Month, be read the
second time and referred to a committee.
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Canadian
Alliance): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill
C-243. I appreciated the remarks of the Parliamentary Secretary
to the Minister of Health today. I hope his remarks mean that he
will support my colleague's motion to make this item votable so
that we can get on with the job of increasing awareness of
hepatitis and all the problems it can cause. It is a preventable
disease.
Awareness is very important if we are to get to prevention. As
my colleague mentioned, we have with us today Joey Haché and his
dad Joe. We acknowledge the work of members of the Hepatitis C
Society, including the Hachés who have worked tirelessly and put
a great deal of their own money, time and credibility into moving
forward public awareness of this very important issue.
As has been pointed out, hepatitis is preventable, but
prevention hinges on education and education brings awareness.
That is why my colleague has been asking that May be designated
hepatitis awareness month.
This is a non-partisan issue. It touches any family, any
Canadian. We need to work together to try to address the
situation.
1355
Many people are not aware of the great deal of information about
hepatitis. For example, there are a number of kinds of
hepatitis: hepatitis A, hepatitis B and hepatitis C. We know
about hepatitis C particularly, but a lot of people do not know
that there are also hepatitis D, E, F and G.
It is interesting to note that chronic viral hepatitis in the
United States, and we assume the figures are somewhat comparable
here, represents the 10th most common cause of death. We are
talking about a very big issue for Canadians and one which is
appropriate for us to address in the House.
Hepatitis A can occur from contaminated water or foods being
ingested. It can also be passed from person to person and from
hand to mouth. That is why the kind of education that would take
place in an awareness campaign such as my colleague is proposing
would make people aware of these dangers.
Hepatitis A can also result from poor housing, poor water
supplies and sewage treatment. These are major factors in
periodic outbreaks of hepatitis A. Again that is why we need
awareness. Then the public and legislators would be more aware
of the need to deal with the issues of water safety, housing
quality and poor sewage treatment.
If our citizens are not made aware of the ramifications of some
of these issues and some of these public policy matters, they
cannot apply the kinds of demand and pressure that provide checks
and balances in our system.
According to the Minister of Health it is likely that
considerably more than 100,000 Canadians have chronic hepatitis
B. That is also a big issue for Canadians. We also have the
situation with hepatitis C, which is passed on by the unsafe use
of needles especially in drug use and to people who receive blood
transfusions.
In 1990 donor screening for hepatitis C began. However, as we
know and as we have talked about at some length in the House,
there was a real problem with innocent Canadians becoming
contaminated through blood transfusions that were not properly
screened. Had we had the kind of awareness campaign my colleague
is proposing, there would have been a great deal more knowledge
that could have prevented some of the tragedies we have been
talking about in the House and for which the government is being
asked to compensate.
The Minister of Health also pointed out in his public documents
that the cumulative burden of hepatitis C was large and its
future societal and medical costs were likely to be high. This
is another reason all of us should care very much about the
hepatitis problem. The cost to society, to our families, and the
demand on our medical system are high.
People with hepatitis C are at risk of consequences such as
profound fatigue. At least half the people with hepatitis C
experience profound fatigue. Some 25% experience sclerosis of
the liver and liver cancer after having the disease for a number
of years. Liver disease is related to hepatitis C infection and
is the leading reason for liver transplantation in Canada. This
is another costly procedure that could be prevented.
Then we have hepatitis D. Although 90% of active hepatitis
cases are A, B and C, there are others. Hepatitis D tends to
enhance the frequency and severity of the symptoms of
hepatitis B.
1400
Hepatitis E is often transmitted through contaminated water, and
although it is not a huge problem here, it is both endemic and at
times epidemic in the developing world.
More awareness can help us provide the assistance and the aid to
people in other parts of the world, which could save a lot of
lives and a lot of human misery. There is no specific treatment
for hepatitis E. Again, prevention is very important. There is
only a handful of hepatitis F cases, but again, it is a part of
the disease of which we need to become more aware.
Hepatitis G is another uncertain phenomenon. There is
uncertainty about risk factors. There is uncertainty about means
of prevention. Its transmission through blood transfusion has
been documented. We also know there is an increase in the
prevalence of hepatitis G among groups that have frequent
exposure to blood and blood products.
There are a number of aspects of this disease of which most
people are not aware, and that awareness can be a key to
prevention and to taking proper steps to deal with this disease
and this issue.
In particular, we have had so many concerns about people with
hepatitis C, which is the most common form of hepatitis. We need
to be aware of the cost to society. When people have hepatitis C
they have a very difficult time not only earning a living but
getting the kind of insurance they need to protect their
families, such as mortgage, life and medical insurance. It is
very debilitating.
It also is something that is not properly provided for in our
health care system. For example, in the Atlantic provinces there
is a real shortage of trained medical personnel. There is money
allocated for only one hepatologist in an area where there are
12,000 people infected with hepatitis, one doctor who has a
specialty in a disease that affects 12,000 people in only one
part of our country, the Atlantic provinces.
There are a number of other examples of funding shortages. If
members of the public were aware of the need for better treatment
and a better emphasis on prevention, these issues could be dealt
with. I support my colleague's bill to declare May hepatitis
awareness month and I urge the House to support it as well.
[Translation]
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, BQ): Madam Speaker, I
would like to start by congratulating my colleague on his
excellent initiative. I understand this is the second time he has
tried to raise our awareness of this issue through the means
available to him, namely a private member's bill. Should he ask
for unanimous consent for his bill to be deemed votable,
therefore allowing the debate to continue in the House, he will
have the support of the Bloc Quebecois.
I have been the Bloc Quebecois health critic for three years
now. I was appointed during the Krever inquiry.
I believe it should be recognized that Quebecers and Canadians
were made aware of hepatitis C, among others, through the Krever
inquiry.
Today we must reflect on the importance of an awareness month.
It is not simply an academic exercise when we have an awareness
week, month or day, or when parliamentarians want to declare an
awareness month just as we have World AIDS Day. Earlier the
parliamentary secretary reminded us that there is also a liver
disease awareness day and a cancer awareness day.
1405
It is not just academic, since an awareness day, we hope, will
lead people in the various communities in Quebec and Canada not
only to discover the various forms of hepatitis but to work
together to support those who have the disease.
It has been pointed out that there are various types of it. I
think we are more familiar with hepatitis C, which is transmitted
by body fluids, by the blood. We are more familiar with
hepatitis C, of course, because of what happened in Canada's
blood supply in the early 1990s.
The first recommendation of the Krever Commission was that there
be a no fault compensation package. A person with hepatitis C
may have contracted it not only because of what they have done
but through circumstances over which they had absolutely no
control, such as in the case of a blood transfusion.
As the person receiving the transfusion is not responsible for
anything other than for needing a transfusion, for needing blood
at one time or another in their life, we do not understand why
the compensation package is not universal. However, different
types of hepatitis are transmitted in different ways, and in
these cases, prevention is necessary. This is the case with
food, water and certain health conditions.
If there were awareness days and programs, if the media got
involved, if people in the various communities mobilized to get
this information out, we as parliamentarians are betting that
the more people are informed, the less they will be at risk.
This was what we counted on in the early 1980s, when acquired
immunodeficiency syndrome, better known as AIDS, was first
discovered.
I well recall how, in the early 1980s, the various forms of
AIDS, its side effects and methods of transmission, were
unknown. There were international conferences. Canada hosted
two: one in Montreal, in 1992, and the other in Vancouver, in 1996.
Once again, awareness is needed, because awareness leads not
only to less risky behaviour, but also to the reflex that is
necessary in a certain number of cases of transmission of
hepatitis C, where one can be a carrier without knowing it.
The House was reminded earlier that there are 700,000 Canadians
with hepatitis C; this is also the figure I had. It is
staggering. This means that hepatitis, particularly hepatitis C,
is the 10th most frequent cause of death. There is also
another reality which governments face and for which awareness
is important. That reality is that there are close to 50,000
Canadians who, as we speak, are perhaps at work, perhaps playing
sports, are perhaps in a classroom, in a park or with their
parents or friends, and who do not know that they have hepatitis.
This is why governments must support any initiative that will
promote awareness.
Technology is changing. There are more
sophisticated technologies that help to track these people. If
my information is correct, the Government of Canada announced in
1999 or in 2000 that $300 million would be provided in the next
years to help track, through the blood banks and the hospitals,
people who have had blood transfusions.
1410
Governments must implement mechanisms for reaching people and
tracking those who, at some stage in the medical chain, may have
had access to blood products and may be carriers.
That being said, there is no point in panicking, in thinking
that the blood system is not safe. I remind members that the
Krever commission, in its report, had come to the conclusion,
after the various corrective measures it had proposed were
taken, that right now, in Canada, there is one chance in a
million that a blood product is not safe.
In Canada and in Quebec, we have a very safe system of blood
transfusion, supply, collection and distribution. But as a
physician reminded us, there is always some danger associated
with a blood transfusion just as there is with an operation.
However, statistics show that the blood supply and distribution
system in Canada is just as safe an anywhere else.
Also, community awareness can be increased. The example set by
young Joey Haché is quite something. Members will surely agree
with me that it took a lot of courage to cycle across Canada and
visit every community along the way. This young man, still a
minor, represented our best hope and gave us our most solid and
real example of how community awareness and support can be
increased.
Should we not be asking ourselves if someone in the House will
continue the remarkable work started by Joey. In a sense, our
colleague, the hon. member for Sackville—Musquodoboit
Valley—Eastern Shore, is asking us to complete the work started
by Joey.
I am quite proud that I was able to remember the whole name of the
member's riding. It is more complicated than
Hochelaga—Maisonneuve. What our colleague is asking us to do is
to continue the work started by Joey.
To conclude, I hope that this bill will be made votable and that
we will be able to increase community awareness and support,
because that is where our best hope lies.
[English]
Mr. Loyola Hearn (St. John's West, PC): Madam Speaker, it
is a real pleasure to support the bill brought forward by my
colleague from the NDP, the member for Sackville—Musquodoboit
Valley—Eastern Shore, a beautiful area of Nova Scotia that I
visit quite often.
I wish to congratulate him on his initiative in bringing forward
this bill and I wish to congratulate individuals such as Joey
Haché and his father, who have shown great initiative in this
field. I look forward to their visit to Newfoundland. Hopefully
we can join the hon. member and spend some time there in the near
future.
The issue of hepatitis is certainly not a new one for our party.
I would like to remind the House that the Conservative Party was
the leader on this issue in November 1997 when the member for New
Brunswick Southwest raised the issue and debated it for quite
some time, as members are aware. The file is now carried by our
health critic, the member for Richmond—Arthabaska.
We in our party are proud and pleased to join in supporting the
bill, which creates an awareness month for a disease that so many
of our friends and neighbours have.
In my remarks I will try to concentrate on hepatitis C. We have
been told today that there are many types of hepatitis, but
hepatitis C is perhaps what has initiated this bill and is the
type that most concerns us.
1415
One of the major concerns we have, despite the agreement of
support on the government side, is the government's slowness in
reacting to the needs of people affected by hepatitis. People
are affected by the government's inability to recognize that many
people are outside the four year time frame, from 1986 to 1990. The
government should assume responsibility for them.
While the health committee is doing a very good job of moving
the file forward, all those people who were not involved in
the positive side of the government decision are again facing, as
many people have pointed out, great hardships in their lives.
Perhaps the government should expand that file and recognize the
people who are outside the minuscule time frame that it has set.
All of us have friends and relatives affected by different
diseases. We recognize the pressures on them, on their families,
on the communities which quite often support them, on the
agencies that are directly and indirectly involved and on the
country generally. If a disease limits our ability to be a
contributing partner in society or within our own families and
despite the fact that while we are contributors the costs of
trying to deal with our afflictions are above and beyond what we
can master ourselves, then the rest of society is involved and
has a major concern.
That is what the country is all about. That is what
confederation is all about. The rich provinces help the poor
provinces, the pendulum swings every now and then and those who
were helped find themselves the healthy ones.
It is the same way in society. Many of the people affected by
diseases, especially a disease like hepatitis C, are some of the
strongest willed individuals. They show us through their
determination how to fight such afflictions and are important
players in society. It is an example to the rest of us.
The government should recognize that and look for avenues where
this should take place, not continue to look for ways of
escapism. The word escapism as it relates to hepatitis C should
not be a word used by government or by any of us. The government
should recognize the fact that people need assistance, they
deserve assistance and it should be there to help them. Not only
should the government be there to help but to help expeditiously.
That is a word the government does not recognize either.
Many people have waited too long for too little. Unfortunately,
the amounts that were set aside to help them have eroded through
the process, whether it be through the legal process or just by
dragging it out. Let us concentrate on the fact that there is a
major problem and people are being affected by that. The needs
and the wants are there. As a government, let us fulfil our
responsibilities, move up to the plate and address it quickly.
We wish the best for those who are involved in this initiative.
I say to my hon. colleague that we certainly support the bill. We
support his call to make it votable, and hopefully in turn we
will see government do its part also.
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Madam Speaker, first, I wish to thank all my
hon. colleagues who spoke on this important initiative which I
brought forward on behalf of many people throughout the country.
I will allow the words of Joey Haché to speak through me to the
House.
He said that awareness equals prevention. That can save lives,
and as parliamentarians we have an obligation to all Canadians.
1420
Joey Haché is a young man fighting a terrible disease. He knows
it is too late for him. However he is trying to get some good
out of the disease by saying to people throughout the country,
especially to teens his own age and kids who are younger, that
the disease can be prevented and that it can, with hope, love and
optimism, be eradicated. However that cannot happen unless there
is awareness, education and prevention. That is all we are
asking for.
Hon. members have spoken about the various issues, and I am sure
we can all relate not only to hepatitis but to other diseases as
well. We implore the government to look into itself and to
understand that this is not a political or monetary issue but an
issue of love, caring and sharing.
That is especially true for the sectors of our society which are
most at risk. These include aboriginal people in coastal and
rural communities without proper water and sewer facilities, poor
people, and the functionally illiterate who are unaware of the
dangers. It is our responsibility to let them know this disease
is out there. Again, as young Joey Haché would say, if we can
make them aware of it we can prevent it.
I will not take up much more of the time of the House. If I
could get on both knees to ask this I would, but I would be
hidden under the desk. I ask for unanimous consent to make the
month of May hepatitis awareness month. If that were made
votable and passed on to the health committee, I would be forever
in debt to the House of Commons.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): The House has heard
the suggestion of the hon. member. Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): The time provided for
the consideration of private members' business has now expired.
As the motion has not been designated a votable item, it is
dropped from the order paper.
It being 2.23 p.m., the House stands adjourned until Monday next
at 11 a.m. pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).
(The House adjourned at 2.23 p.m.)