37th Parliament, 1st Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 017
CONTENTS
Tuesday, February 20, 2001
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
1000
| WAYS AND MEANS
|
| Notice of motion
|
| Hon. Jim Peterson |
1005
| CANADA NATIONAL MARINE CONSERVATION AREAS ACT
|
| Bill C-10. Introduction and first reading
|
| Hon. Sheila Copps |
| PETITIONS
|
| Human Rights
|
| Mr. Svend Robinson |
| QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| SUPPLY
|
| Allotted Day—Electoral Reform
|
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Motion
|
1010
1015
| Mr. Alex Shepherd |
1020
| Mr. John Bryden |
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
1025
1030
| Amendment
|
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
1035
| Mr. Alex Shepherd |
1040
| Hon. Don Boudria |
1045
1050
1055
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
1100
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
1105
| Mr. Ted White |
1110
1115
1120
1125
| Mr. John Bryden |
1130
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
1135
| Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
1140
1145
1150
1155
| Mrs. Betty Hinton |
1200
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
1205
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
1210
1215
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
1220
| Mr. John Bryden |
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
1225
1230
| Mr. Roy Bailey |
1235
| Mr. Ghislain Lebel |
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
1240
1245
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
1250
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
1255
| Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
1300
1305
| Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
| Mr. Bob Speller |
1310
| Mr. John Bryden |
1315
1320
1325
1330
| Mr. Scott Reid |
1335
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
1340
| Mr. Werner Schmidt |
| Mr. Scott Reid |
1345
1350
| Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
1355
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
| FOREIGN AFFAIRS
|
| Ms. Colleen Beaumier |
| ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE
|
| Mr. Larry Spencer |
1400
| PAUL DEMPSEY
|
| Mr. Pat O'Brien |
| CREDIT VALLEY HOSPITAL
|
| Mr. Steve Mahoney |
| CANADIAN WOMEN IN COMMUNICATIONS
|
| Ms. Sarmite Bulte |
| EDUARDO SEBRANGO RODRIGUEZ
|
| Mr. John Reynolds |
1405
| WATER CONTAMINATION
|
| Mr. Ghislain Fournier |
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Mr. Ovid Jackson |
| SOPHIE ZEBER
|
| Ms. Judy Sgro |
| VETERANS
|
| Mr. Roy Bailey |
| LORIE KANE
|
| Mr. Shawn Murphy |
1410
| EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
|
| Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
| HEATING COST REBATES
|
| MASTERWORKS
|
| Ms. Carolyn Bennett |
| NATIONAL DEFENCE
|
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
1415
| THE ECONOMY
|
| Mr. Stockwell Day |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| Mr. Stockwell Day |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| Mr. Stockwell Day |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
1420
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| FREE TRADE AREA OF THE AMERICAS
|
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Pierre Pettigrew |
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Hon. Pierre Pettigrew |
1425
| Mr. Michel Gauthier |
| Hon. Pierre Pettigrew |
| Mr. Michel Gauthier |
| Hon. Pierre Pettigrew |
| TRADE
|
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Ms. Alexa McDonough |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
1430
| BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT BANK
|
| Right Hon. Joe Clark |
| Hon. Brian Tobin |
| Right Hon. Joe Clark |
| Hon. Brian Tobin |
| THE PRIME MINISTER
|
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Hon. Brian Tobin |
| Miss Deborah Grey |
| Hon. Brian Tobin |
1435
| FREE TRADE AREA OF THE AMERICAS
|
| Mr. Pierre Paquette |
| Hon. Pierre Pettigrew |
| Mr. Pierre Paquette |
| Hon. Pierre Pettigrew |
| NATIONAL DEFENCE
|
| Mr. Rob Anders |
| Hon. Art Eggleton |
| Mr. Rob Anders |
| Hon. Art Eggleton |
| INTERNATIONAL TRADE
|
| Mr. Richard Marceau |
1440
| Hon. Pierre Pettigrew |
| Mr. Richard Marceau |
| Hon. Pierre Pettigrew |
| NATIONAL DEFENCE
|
| Mr. Peter Goldring |
| Hon. Art Eggleton |
| Mr. Peter Goldring |
| Hon. Art Eggleton |
| FREE TRADE AREA OF THE AMERICAS
|
| Mr. Mauril Bélanger |
| Hon. Pierre Pettigrew |
1445
| TRADE
|
| Mr. Svend Robinson |
| Hon. Pierre Pettigrew |
| Mr. Svend Robinson |
| Hon. Pierre Pettigrew |
| BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT BANK
|
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
| Hon. Brian Tobin |
| Right Hon. Joe Clark |
| Hon. Brian Tobin |
1450
| PRIVACY COMMISSIONER
|
| Mr. Garry Breitkreuz |
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
| Mr. Garry Breitkreuz |
| Hon. Anne McLellan |
| FREE TRADE AREA OF THE AMERICAS
|
| Ms. Francine Lalonde |
| Hon. Pierre Pettigrew |
| Ms. Francine Lalonde |
| Hon. Pierre Pettigrew |
| COAST GUARD
|
| Mr. James Lunney |
1455
| Hon. Herb Dhaliwal |
| Mr. John Duncan |
| Hon. Herb Dhaliwal |
| AUTOMOBILE INDUSTRY
|
| Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
| Hon. Brian Tobin |
| THE ENVIRONMENT
|
| Mr. Rob Merrifield |
| Hon. Ralph Goodale |
1500
| Mr. Rob Merrifield |
| Hon. Ralph Goodale |
| FREE TRADE AREA OF THE AMERICAS
|
| Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire |
| Hon. Pierre Pettigrew |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
1505
| SUPPLY
|
| Allotted Day—Electoral Reform
|
| Motion
|
| Mr. Steve Mahoney |
1510
1515
| Ms. Sarmite Bulte |
1520
1525
| Mr. James Moore |
1530
1535
1540
1545
1550
| Mr. André Harvey |
1555
| Mr. Serge Marcil |
1600
1605
1610
1615
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
1620
| Mr. Bernard Bigras |
1625
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
1630
1635
1640
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
1645
| Mr. John Harvard |
1650
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
1655
1700
| Mr. Scott Reid |
1705
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
| Mr. Lynn Myers |
1710
1715
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
1720
| Mr. Pat Martin |
1725
| Allotted Day—Free Trade Area of the Americas
|
| Motion
|
1750
1800
(Division 9)
| Motion negatived
|
| CANADA FOUNDATION FOR SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT TECHNOLOGY ACT
|
| Bill C-4. Second reading
|
(Division 10)
| Motion agreed to
|
| WAYS AND MEANS
|
| Excise Tax Act
|
| Motion for concurrence
|
| Hon. Don Boudria |
1805
| PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
| CANADIAN SIKHS
|
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
| Motion
|
1810
1815
| Ms. Sarmite Bulte |
1820
| Mr. Gurmant Grewal |
1825
1830
1835
| Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral |
1840
| Mr. Peter MacKay |
1845
1850
| Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
| Mr. Bill Blaikie |
1855
| ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
|
| Foreign Affairs
|
| Mr. Bill Casey |
1900
| Mr. Yvon Charbonneau |
| Health
|
| Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis |
1905
| Mr. Yvon Charbonneau |
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 017
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Tuesday, February 20, 2001
The House met at 10 a.m.
Prayers
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
1000
[English]
WAYS AND MEANS
NOTICE OF MOTION
Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International
Financial Institutions), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to
Standing Order 83(1), I wish to table a notice of ways and means
motion involving amendments to the Excise Tax Act, including
explanatory notes. I ask that an order of the day be designated
for consideration of the motion.
These amendments to the Excise Tax Act deal with encouraging
rental housing, with giving a competitive edge to our Canadian
manufacturers who import and export, and with multi-employer
pension funds. This is very worthwhile legislation that has come
forth from members of the House acting on behalf of their
constituents. We expect speedy passage of the legislation.
* * *
1005
CANADA NATIONAL MARINE CONSERVATION AREAS ACT
Hon. Sheila Copps (Minister of Canadian Heritage, Lib.)
moved for leave to introduce Bill C-10, an act respecting the
national marine conservation areas of Canada.
She said: Mr. Speaker, I am very excited about the introduction
of this act respecting the national conservation areas of Canada.
I think it will add to the framework that we have for ensuring
that our collective heritage is saved not just on land but also
at sea.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
PETITIONS
HUMAN RIGHTS
Mr. Svend Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
I have the honour to present a petition which has been signed by
hundreds of residents of British Columbia that underscores the
concern that Canadians do not wish to be party to a policy that
involves the death of over 5,000 Iraqi children every month.
The petitioners note that Denis Halliday, the former UN
undersecretary for Iraq and co-ordinator of the 661 committee,
has said that the situation amounts to genocide.
The petitioners call on the Government of Canada to pursue
urgently the de-linking of economic from military sanctions and
to rapidly lift economic sanctions in order to improve
significantly the humanitarian situation of the Iraqi people. I
support the petition strongly.
* * *
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I ask
that all questions be allowed to stand.
The Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
SUPPLY
ALLOTTED DAY—ELECTORAL REFORM
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP) moved:
That this House strike a
special all-party committee to examine the merits of
various models of proportional representation and other
electoral reforms, with a view to recommending reforms that
would combat the increasing regionalization of Canadian
politics, and the declining turnout of Canadians in federal
elections.
She said: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to have the
opportunity to kick off this important debate this morning on
electoral reform. I would like to indicate at the outset that I
will be splitting my time with the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle.
I am pleased to have the opportunity to congratulate the member
for Regina—Qu'Appelle for his dogged, persistent, stubborn
determination in pushing forward with electoral reform that is so
badly needed.
I will talk a little bit about the problem that we believe very
much needs fixing and I will also address some of the ways in
which we can do that. We are all familiar with the expression,
“if it ain't broke don't fix it”, but in this case there is
something broken and there is a problem that we need to address.
An hon. member: There is nothing to fix.
Ms. Alexa McDonough: The member just said that we do not
need to fix it. It speaks to the problem that we have too many
government members who agree that our electoral system creates
distortions, divisions and undemocratic results in terms of the
composition of parliament, but in the same breath they ask what
could be wrong with a political system that produces three
majority Liberal governments in a row.
1010
We have an electoral system based on a first past the post
system. The problem with that is that the electoral system
leaves too many people feeling that they do not have any way to
make their vote count. They feel they may as well not vote
because they know perfectly well that if they do not support the
majority view then their view does not count at all and they do
not have any way to influence the composition of parliament so
that important, significant minority views are fairly and
proportionately represented.
It is a problem that our first past the post system creates
distortions and that kind of unrepresentativeness. It is equally
a problem, perhaps even more of a problem, that it creates a
winner takes all mentality. That is the seed of the kind of
arrogance and unresponsiveness that comes from majority
governments that are over-represented.
I know some people say that the NDP keeps pushing for electoral
reform because it believes that if we had an electoral system
that included a proportional representation element that it would
likely end up with more seats in parliament. With many elections
that is true, but even over-represented Liberals must recognize
that it is a problem when we have an election in which, for
example, the Liberals win 50% of the vote, but they win 97% of
the seats as they did in the most recent election in Ontario.
It is not just about the over-representation of Liberals, which
is the problem with the winner take all mentality of the Liberal
government. It is also about other distortions.
Let me give another couple of examples. In the 1997 election
the Reform Party got 19% of the vote. The Progressive
Conservative Party got 19% of the vote. Did it have roughly the
same number of seats? No, the Reform Party won 60 seats in the
House of Commons and the Conservative Party won 20 seats in the
House of Commons. Some may ask what is wrong with that because
that is the system? They say that is just what it means to be in
a democracy where the winner takes all.
Mr. Bill Blaikie: At least in a Canadian one.
Ms. Alexa McDonough: Mr. Speaker, my colleague for
Winnipeg—Transcona has exactly made the point with his comment.
Canada is very much in a minority among democracies in the world
in perpetuating this undemocratic electoral system.
It is a matter of fact not a matter of rhetoric that Canada is
one of only three remaining democracies in the world that has a
population of over eight million people that persists in a winner
take all, first past the post electoral system. Every other
democracy in the modern world with a population of over eight
million people has incorporated some element of proportional
representation into their electoral system
There is a very good reason for that. We know the Liberal Party
and its members do not know what the problem is because they like
the results. The problem is that it does not work for the
electorate.
We have watched a steady decline in the number of Canadians
participating in election campaigns. Back in 1958, 75% of
eligible citizens voted. In the most recent election, 58% of
Canadians who were eligible to vote actually cast their vote.
People want to know what is wrong with members of the public who
do not get out and vote. I know what is wrong. They are
correct when they feel that getting out and voting, if they do
not embrace the majority view of the government in power, it
means that their voice does not really get heard and their views
do not get expressed.
1015
We have a problem. The good news is that we know what to do to
fix it. It is not a question of it being a pat formula. Let me
make very clear what the motion is that we are putting forward
today as our official opposition business because we think it is
that important. Canadians want to see some leadership from all
sides of the House on the issue.
The motion says that we need to have a debate, not just a debate
in the House but a debate that will involve getting out and
talking to Canadians about what the various forms of proportional
representation could be; what it would actually mean for Canada;
what a system of proportional representation would do to
strengthen national unity so that we do not end up with regional
divisions in the House which threaten the unity and future
strength of the country; and what it would mean to ensure that
caucuses are more representative and that in every caucus there
would be some representation that would allow for a more national
view of what the country is, what people want to see in their
parliament and what they want their government to do on their
behalf.
This is not an easy problem for us to deal with as
parliamentarians. To people who are hard pressed to pay their
increasingly costly fuel bills, who are forced to choose between
paying for their groceries or their prescription drugs because of
broken promises by an arrogant Liberal government, the notion of
electoral reform and proportional representation seems a bit
abstract and esoteric.
I think our challenge, not just New Democrats who are pressing
for electoral reform but all parliamentarians, is to talk to
Canadians who properly expect and demand leadership about the
issue of electoral reform to allow them to understand the
problems they are struggling with, whether it is health care,
inadequate income, the difficulty of paying for an education or
whatever their bread and butter daily struggles, and why a more
representative parliament would speak more concretely and
effectively to their needs.
Let me finalize my comments by quoting a Chinese proverb: “If
we do not change the direction we are going, we are likely to end
up where we are headed”. Too many citizens in the country do
not feel they are represented in the House and we have a
responsibility as parliamentarians to fix that.
Mr. Alex Shepherd (Parliamentary Secretary to President of
the Treasury Board, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I enjoyed the opening
remarks of the leader of the New Democratic Party. In spite of
her belief that proportional representation is a cure-all for our
political system, probably just as many Liberals stayed home in
the last election as supporters of the opposition. Even if we had
proportional representation we may well have ended up with the
same results. I know she would not appreciate that.
I am concerned about proportional representation in areas where
it has been used exclusively. I am thinking of Spain before
Franco where there were 100 parties and Ukraine where there are
60 parties because they had proportional representation.
Basically proportional representation would assist regionalism in
Canada. It would allow for a multiplicity of political parties
representing every little interest, every little farm community
and so forth across the nation. It would weaken our form of
government.
The leader of the NDP talks about strengthening national unity.
I think it is a panacea for creating a weakened federation and a
weakened government in Canada.
If the leader of the NDP wanted to talk about people who are
concerned about relevancy, rather than bring an issue like
proportional representation to the floor of the House of Commons,
why did she not talk about health care? Why did she not talk
about child poverty? Why did she not talk about the environment?
Those are things that mean something to people, not proportional
representation.
1020
Ms. Alexa McDonough: Mr. Speaker, I have to say that it
is extremely depressing. There is a call by the Canadian people
to do something about the fact that they are losing confidence in
their parliamentary institutions. It is utterly irresponsible
for any member of the House, and I do not care in which caucus,
to stand and talk about something as absurd as going to a total
PR representation system and creating 100 political parties. They
should not insult the Canadian public like that.
There must be some reason every parliamentary democracy in the
world with a population of over eight million has said that it
needs to be more reflective and more representative of the people
and that it has a responsibility to explore the options.
There are many different formulas for proportional
representation, but in the name of heaven let us not misrepresent
what is being proposed. Let us not display ignorance about why
other democratic countries have moved to embrace some elements
and formulas of proportional representation.
Mr. John Bryden (Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the member for Halifax mentioned that
there are only three countries left in the world which
exclusively have the first past the post constituency system, but
she failed to name those three countries and I will name them for
her. They are Canada, the United States and Britain, the three
oldest democracies and the three most successful democracies.
Ms. Alexa McDonough: Mr. Speaker, it is important to have
this debate because of the amount of self-serving representation
that people will make. Let us be clear about something. Canada
is not the only country with a crisis in terms of the decline of
voter participation. The United States is in an even greater
crisis in terms of the erosion of the participation of the
electorate in the political system.
The U.K. is the second country. In the U.K. today the
parliaments of Scotland, Ireland and Wales are all elected with
an element of proportional representation. The government of the
U.K. has also launched a process of electoral reform and
indicated it is prepared to have a referendum on the issue of
proportional representation.
I plead with members to take the opportunity today, a day we
have chosen as our opposition day, to have an informed, earnest
and sincere debate. We chose today not to make it a votable
motion but for the reason of opening it up to thoughtful debate.
We are not asking people to commit to the bottom line. We are
saying we should have a reasonable debate about the problems we
have and about the solutions we know are at hand.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I want to say a few words about this subject today. I
appeal to the Liberals opposite to look seriously at the merits
of changing our electoral system.
In Canada today there is a real crisis in democracy and I think
we are sleepwalking toward that crisis. If we look at the
turnout in the last election, fewer than 60% of the people voted.
In 1997 it was 67%. Years ago it was 75%, 80% or 85%. People
are being turned off by the political system and by politics.
If we walk down the street in any town or city in Canada we find
people who are alienated from the political system. Part of the
reason is that when people elect parliament their votes are not
mirrored in the composition of the seats. That is one of the big
problems we have today.
For example, the Liberal Party received around 40% of the vote
last November. Only about 60% of the people voted. Therefore
the Liberals received about 25% of the support of the electorate.
About a quarter of the people have elected a government that will
govern constitutionally for some five years. That is a problem
in terms of the credibility of the House of Commons and the
credibility of parliament. That is why we should seriously look
at changing our electoral system.
It is amazing. Those of us who come here, come through the
first past the post system. The last time there was a vote in
parliament on proportional representation was before you were
born, Mr. Speaker. The year 1923 was the last time there was a
vote in the House of Commons on PR.
1025
Last fall my private member's motion was drawn and declared
votable. We had one hour of debate and the election came before
we had a chance to vote on the motion.
We are saying that we should strike an all-party committee to
look at the merits of the various forms of proportional
representation that might be incorporated in terms of an element
into our electoral system. We must have a debate on the issue.
It is a fundamental issue which we should be facing but
parliamentarians are refusing to deal with it.
There is growing interest across the country in the whole idea
of changing our electoral system. There is an organization
called Fair Vote Canada. There are other organizations out there
promoting a change. I will be hosting a conference in Ottawa on
March 30 and March 31 at which all five political parties will be
speaking to and supporting the idea of looking at the kind of PR
that might be relevant to our country. I call upon the
Parliament of Canada to join the cause of looking at changing our
electoral system into something that is more relevant to the 21st
century.
Our system is outdated. There are now only three countries in
the world with more than eight million people that do not have
some form of PR. They are India, the United States and Canada.
Britain, the mother parliament, has an element of PR in the
Scottish, Irish and Welsh parliaments. All other members from
Britain are elected to the European community by PR. In the
election after next England will probably have a measure of PR in
terms of what the Blair government is planning. Canada will be
one of only three countries in the world without some element of
PR.
Another problem with the lack of PR in the first past the post
system is that a lot of people feel their votes are wasted. Many
Canadians vote for people who are not elected to the House of
Commons because of the winner take all political system. If we
had a system of PR people would be empowered and included because
their votes would be reflected in the House of Commons. If we
received 20% of the votes we would have roughly 20% of the seats.
That is not the case in the House of Commons today.
Canada has a very unfair system. Let us look at the last
election. The party to my left over here, the Conservative
Party, required 130,000 votes to elect a Conservative member of
parliament while the Bloc Quebecois required 36,000 votes to
elect a member of the Bloc Quebecois. That is how distorted our
political system is.
Sometimes it works in favour of one party against another, but
the first past the post system always distorts the outcome of
elections. What we see in the House of Commons does not reflect
the way Canadians are voting. That is why the political system
must be changed.
In 1997 the Conservative Party got 19% of the vote and the
Reform Party got 19% of the vote. The Conservatives got around
19 seats and the Reform Party got around 60 seats. The NDP and
the Bloc each had 11% of the vote. We had 21 seats and the Bloc
had 44. The Liberal Party, with just 38% of the vote, won a
majority and can constitutionally govern for five years. That is
not fair. That is not just.
In the province of Ontario we would think everyone is Liberal.
In the last campaign the Liberals won about 50% of the votes and
97% of the seats. In 1997 they had fewer than half the votes,
49.6% or 49.7%, and had all but two members of parliament from
the province of Ontario. The electoral system distorts the way
Canadians think.
It is the same in the west. People might think all but a few
people in the west vote for the Reform Party or the Alliance
Party. In the campaigns of 1993 and 1997 the reform alliance was
a minority party in western Canada. It received 40% plus of the
popular vote, yet it won the absolutely overwhelming majority of
seats.
That is the unfairness of the system. Other countries have
remedied the unfairness by bringing an element of PR into their
electoral systems so that people's votes are counted in
parliament. It is about time we caught up with the trend in
terms of modernizing democracy.
There is also the whole question of national unity and
regionalism. We are seeing more of a regional Canada all the
time. We are seeing it increasing day by day. I am thinking in
terms of the politics of the Harris government, of the Klein
government and of the Parti Quebecois that regionalize Canada.
That is now reflected in the House of Commons where we have in
essence five regional political parties representing one or two
regions of the country.
If we had a system of PR, all parties would be forced to think
of the country as a whole, of a national vision of what is best
for Canada, because a vote in Newfoundland would have the same
power as a vote in rural Saskatchewan or Montreal or Vancouver.
It would force all political parties to have a national vision to
knit and pull the country together. That is not happening today
in terms of our first past the post political system.
There is also the whole question of empowerment. People feel
excluded from the electoral system. If we had an element of PR
in the electoral system everybody's vote would count. Nobody's
vote would be wasted, not just on election night but throughout
the term of the parliament.
It would mean a radical change in the Parliament of Canada. It
would mean almost certainly that most governments would be
minority governments. It would force a radical thing upon the
Parliament of Canada. It would force politicians to work
together to come up with a consensus like most countries in the
world.
1030
Since 1921 we have only had three governments of a majority
sense that were elected by the majority of the people. The other
majorities have been fake majorities in terms of a minority
electing a majority of MPs and then governing as a majority. That
is true in the case of all three Liberal majorities.
There were very few majority governments elected by a majority
of the people. There were Mackenzie King in 1945, John
Diefenbaker in 1958 and indeed Brian Mulroney in 1984 who, with a
big sweep, had about 49.9% or 50% of the votes.
Time and time again we are electing a parliament with a
composition that does not reflect the voting pattern of the
people of Canada. What we are saying today is that we should
strike an all party committee to look at the various types of
proportional representation that might be relevant to this unique
federation of Canada and make a recommendation back to parliament
as to the best type of system for the Canadian people.
People talk across the way of Israel and Spain and many years
ago. There are all kinds of proportional representation systems.
We are saying that we should bring an element of PR into the
Canadian system. We are not specifying as to what that element
should be, that is for the Canadian people to decide. It is the
unique federation. Perhaps we could look at a model that is
similar to Germany. It has half the members chosen on a riding
by riding basis and half of the members chosen through the
proportional representation of the parties. It has what is
called the mixed member proportional system which seems to have
worked very well for Germany as a federation.
There are all kinds of other examples. Some countries have 15%,
20% or 25% of their members elected by proportional
representation and that may also work well for them.
These are some of the things we should be considering in
reforming and changing our electoral system and making it more
fair, more just and more reflective of how the Canadian people
vote. People are losing confidence in the political
institutions, in politicians and in the very democratic practice
of voting by itself.
We are also saying in the motion today that we should look at
other various electoral and democratic reforms as well. The time
has come, for example, to abolish the unelected, undemocratic and
unaccountable Senate. I would abolish it and bring those checks
and balances into the House of Commons by way of stronger
committees, more independence for committees, less power for the
Prime Minister's office and better reflection of the regions
through proportional representation.
Others want to elect the Senate, but either way we look at it,
all the polling shows only about 5% of Canadians support the
existing Senate. Yet members of parliament decade after decade
support keeping the other place the way it is. No wonder
Canadians are losing confidence in the people elected to the
House of Commons. This is another reason why we have to change
the electoral system in Canada.
My time is up but I want to move the following amendment. I
move:
The Deputy Speaker: The amendment proposed by the member
for Regina—Qu'Appelle is in order. Debate is on the
amendment.
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I was obviously interested in what the member for
Regina—Qu'Appelle had to say. I know he has worked on this
issue for a long time. It is too bad that in the last parliament
we did not get to vote on his private member's bill having to do
with proportional representation. It was also raised in the last
parliament by myself. I remember asking a question to the Prime
Minister. We got the usual sort of partisan trivia from the
Liberal front bench.
1035
When I asked, on behalf of the NDP for an all party committee,
for what is being asked for today, not for a particular solution
but for a process by which these concerns of the Canadian people
could be taken into account, the response of the Prime Minister
was that because the NDP lost elections and they won them that
was why it wanted an all party committee struck.
However, it seems to me, if I heard the member for
Regina—Qu'Appelle correctly, we are talking about the country,
not about the NDP, Tories or the Reform. We are talking about
the political fabric of the country and the way in which certain
fault lines are developing, both in terms of voter confidence and
regional division, as a result of the first past the post system,
the way in which it tends to throw up a homogeneous image of
particular regions. As the member said, it looks like everybody
in Alberta is a reformer, everybody in Quebec is a sovereignist,
everybody in Ontario is a Liberal or whatever the case may be.
Could the member elaborate on that?
Hon. Lorne Nystrom: Mr. Speaker, the first past the post
system tends to really distort the composition of the House of
Commons. If we look at election after election we can see good
examples of that.
I think of 1993, for example, when the Conservative Party was
wiped out. One would have thought that nobody voted Conservative
in the country. The party had two members, the member for Saint
John and Jean Charest. However, the Conservatives received some
17% of the vote. It took over a million people or thereabouts,
if my recollection is correct, to elect a Conservative member of
parliament.
As much as I opposed the Brian Mulroney government, we should
have had an electoral system that gave that party some
representation which would have reflected the proportion of the
vote in the country. What has happened now is even worse than
that. We have the regional divisions that are setting into the
country where we have people in the various provinces and regions
voting as a block for their particular party. We come to
parliament now with five regional parties. The Liberal Party
itself is basically a regional party centred mainly in the
provinces of Ontario and Quebec. That is not good for the unity
of the country.
If we had PR it would force all parties to address the regional
issues. It would force Liberals, for example, to address the
issue of the farm crisis in the prairies, which they are not
doing now because they do not have any members of parliament from
there. It would force my party, the NDP, to address the issues
of Quebec because a vote in Quebec would be worth as much as a
vote in Regina. That is not happening in the current political
system.
The other thing it would do is radically change the voting
patterns in the country. People could afford to vote NDP in
rural Alberta, Liberal in rural Saskatchewan and Reform in
Newfoundland and the votes would count. That would change the
voting pattern in Canada and the Canadian people would all of a
sudden find a parliament that reflected the way they felt in
terms of the common good of Canada.
Mr. Alex Shepherd (Durham, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in spite
of the comments of the member from Halifax, who I think said my
comments were somehow ignorant and that we would have an
intellectual discussion, I refer her to the fact that my
political science professor was Dr. Pauline Jewett.
The member for Regina—Qu'Appelle made two what I think are
conflicting statements. First, he went through a dissertation of
majority governments in Canada and said we would never have a
majority government had we had proportional representation. That
is the very point I am was trying to raise: we would never have
majority governments in the country, which would basically weaken
the federation.
He said the individual opposition parties would have a great
national vision. Why should they when 40,000 votes from anywhere
in the country would give them one seat? We would not have five
political parties over there, we would have about 30 or 40.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom: Mr. Speaker, Pauline Jewett was my
seat mate in the House, so I am wondering whether or not he
really understood her lectures or knew Pauline very well.
The member talked about 40 or 50 different political parties.
There are many countries in the world that have PR, like Germany
which has very few political parties. There are different ways
to model a PR system. Some countries have a threshold of 5%.
Some countries have a threshold of 3% or 2%. These are different
things we can do to model the proportional representation system.
In terms of majority governments, I said we would have very few
majority governments likely in a PR system. We have only had
three majority governments elected by a majority in the last 75
or 80 years. What is wrong with that if that is the way the
Canadian people vote? If Canadian people want minority
governments or even, dare I say it, a coalition government or
government that works together with opposition parties, that is
what they vote for. We want to elect a parliament that is
reflective of how people vote.
1040
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak today on
the motion moved by the hon. member for Halifax, which states:
That this House strike a special all-party committee to examine
the merits of various models of proportional representation and
other electoral reforms, with a view to recommending reforms that
would combat the increasing regionalization of Canadian politics,
and the declining turnout of Canadians in federal elections.
I listened attentively to the hon. member for Halifax and to the
hon. member who spoke afterward. I must say that I am not at all
convinced by these proposals.
Our election law is fundamental to our system of parliamentary
democracy. Since confederation our electoral system has been
based on geographically bound constituencies, each generally
electing a single member to the House of Commons. This provides
a clear chain of accountability from an individual member of
parliament to his or her constituents.
When I go to my constituency office, I am the person who was
elected by those people to represent them, not chosen from a
list, not knowing whether I was the first, second, third, fourth,
fifth or whatever on that list of preferences. The elector, of
course, has a right in a subsequent election to directly remove a
member if such is the wish at that time. That is direct
accountability.
Similarly, and on a grander scale, Canadians can remove the
government and replace it with another government if they chose
to do so at a particular point of time, as the Canadian
electorate so wisely did in 1993.
As the sole representative of his or her constituency, a member
of parliament is directly responsible to his or her constituents
on any issue with which parliament may be dealing. Our current
arrangement is such that an MP is exposed to a broad range of
issues and does not merely speak for his or her party. As the
sole representative for an area, he or she must seek redress for
all matters or grievances and take into account the concerns and
views of all constituents.
All members of this House, including me, spend a considerable
share of time responding to specific interests within a
constituency on issues ranging from immigration to agriculture to
everything else. I held constituency office yesterday morning
before coming to Ottawa to discharge my functions both as an MP
in this House and as a member of the Canadian cabinet.
Consequently, an MP is encouraged, in very practical ways, to
fulfil the basic requirements of any political system and that is
the reconciliation of the wide variety of interests within each
constituency and then right across the country.
I believe that Canadians want to be represented by someone from
home, someone who knows them and someone they can talk to and see
in the House of Commons. If such was not the case, why do people
who do not come from the particular constituency or from a
district or from a city, in the case of an urban area where the
boundaries are a little hard to determine, or from the riding
have a much more difficult time getting elected than those who
are? It is because people want to be generally represented by
someone they know. That is only normal and, as far as I am
concerned, that is only appropriate.
As the hon. member across the way indicated, proportional
representation raises many issues. Our current electoral system
allows much greater scope for the voters to judge the merits of a
popular candidate than do countries with a proportional
representation system where in some cases, and granted I will
agree not all cases, voters have little choice but to support a
party list as presented.
1045
Another issue is political stability. We have seen examples in
countries with proportional electoral systems where, after an
election, it has taken weeks to form a government. After the
government is formed, a coalition often involves narrow special
interest parties and the government is often unable to continue
to maintain the confidence of the legislature. That has been the
case many times in places like Israel and Italy and in France,
where they had a system like that which they later abandoned.
France of course did away with proportional representation
several years ago and, as far as I know, at the national level
there is little appetite to bring it back.
Proportional electoral systems frequently require the formation
of a coalition between parties of different political
allegiances. As a result, proportional representation can mean
that the government is formed by coalitions made through backroom
political negotiations rather than through the ballot box. I
believe that is a far less appropriate way of governing than the
system we have now.
Proportional representation therefore allows small one-issue
parties to become kingmakers of a sort, which enables them to
sometimes force their own agenda on a nation as a whole, again,
as has happened in some cases recently.
Some countries have found that proportional representation
exacerbates regional differences and cleavages within society and
makes it more difficult to reach a national consensus on key
issues.
[Translation]
Proportional representation can also reduce MPs' independence
and of course their ability to serve their ridings. Our first
past the post system, however, encourages the formation of major
parties around a coalition of members representing different
regions, different language groups, different ethnic groups and
so on.
In his motion the hon. member claims that a system of
proportional representation would remedy voter apathy. Where is
her proof of this? There is none, of course.
The decline in voter turnout in Canada and other western
democracies, for this is not a solely Canadian phenomenon, relates
to a number of factors. We are not the only ones to have seen
such a decline.
As I have said, it is obvious that there is no proof that
proportional representation would have any effect on voter
turnout. I am not aware of any country that has adopted
proportional representation and seen an immediate improvement in
voter turnout. Personally, I would venture to say that it might
reduce participation, as I have already said. Proportional
representation is bad for political stability and parliamentary
effectiveness, and particularly bad for MPs' accountability to
their electorate. There is no doubt that this is the price to
be paid.
Devotees of the proportional representation system have
maintained, and continue to maintain, that it favours
representation of the major segments of the population or of
certain groups, such as women.
Contrary to what certain people have stated, international
experience has demonstrated very clearly that such an
improvement is the result of the adoption of quotas, for example
parties setting themselves the obligation to increase the
participation of women or some other specific group. This
improves the participation of women candidates or candidates
from other target groups in society.
Finally, our electoral system is characterized by direct
suffrage. All that the voter needs to do is indicate his or her
preferred candidate. That is it. Nothing complicated. The
voter participates, makes his choice quickly, and that choice is
clear.
Our system makes it possible to reduce the number of invalid
votes. As well, the votes are counted quickly in Canada. In general,
Canadians know, within hours of the polls closing, who will form
the government and who the opposition.
1050
Need I remind the House that last fall there was an election in
Canada and another country at the same time. In Canada, 17
million ballots were opened in the space of 90 minutes, or so.
We knew the first and second place winners, the losers, and so
on. This was done in 90 minutes.
A democracy south of us with a system that is not proportional,
but is much more complicated than ours, took over two months to
establish the winner in its election campaign.
This leads me to conclude that our system is better than many
others. Of course, it may not be perfect, but it is better.
[English]
A paper on electoral reform released today by the Institute for
Research on Public Policy notes some of these problems that other
countries have experienced. IRPP still concludes that
proportional representation, in its opinion, is a good idea, but
even it argues that, and I will read from its press
release, “the chief downside” of proportional representation is
that large multi-member electoral districts “would be less
suited to constituency work as Canadian MPs have traditionally
practiced it”. So even the group that likes proportional
representation thinks that it is less accountable than what we
have now. I believe that to be a major downside.
In my view, the IRPP paper understates the serious problems that
other countries have had with proportional representation. It
downplays the negative impact although it even states that there
are some. It ignores the fact that there is little interest
among Canadians for proportional representation, and let us not
forget that either. It was not exactly an issue raised during
the last election campaign as I canvassed door to door. As the
hon. member for Durham said so astutely earlier, Canadians were
asking about health care, child poverty, taxes, agriculture and
so on and so forth. Very few people, I do not remember any, have
raised with me the issue of proportional representation in
Glengarry—Prescott—Russell.
The paper also states that there is no consensus among academics
as to how to implement a proportional system.
[Translation]
Of course, even the best of systems has faults, including ours.
We must not forget, however, that Canada may be proud of having
one of the most stable and democratic political systems in the
world, a system that is used as a model and has in fact been
exported to a number of other democracies.
The Canadian International Development Agency, Elections Canada
and others—even parliamentarians in this House—have been involved
in forums on democratic process around the world. We all have,
of course, in the belief that our system is the right one, and I
think so too.
Our electoral system has stood the test of time, being
sufficiently flexible to allow us to change it as circumstances
required.
In 1991, the Lortie commission, the Royal Commission on
Electoral Reform and the Party Financing, recommended that the
existing system of single member constituencies be retained. So
this is not just anyone.
The question of the proportional representation and of the
entire electoral system is of course a difficult and complex
one. However, caution is at the heart of courage, especially
since the public has shown almost no interest, as I mentioned,
in proportional representation and since a national system of
proportional representation would necessitate all sorts of
changes, including changes to the Constitution.
[English]
In conclusion, I thank the hon. member for bringing this issue
to public attention. However, I do not share her enthusiasm for
proportional representation. Our current electoral system
provides for clear accountability at constituency and national
levels. It has a proven track record that is recognized around
the world and it allows members of parliament to represent a
specific and identified group of constituents, those living
within the geographical boundaries of the area they represent.
Finally, having listened to the speech from the member across
the way, I note that it has as a premise that each party purports
to want to be a national party. That is not always the case.
There is a case of a political party in the House of Commons, the
orientation of which I do not share, which wants to represent a
region, not the entire country. The Progressives of Manitoba did
at some point in the past. The United Farmers of Ontario and a
number of others wanted, by definition, to be regional parties. I
do not share that view, but it is certainly their right to think
so and to run with that premise if that is what they want to do.
1055
All this is to say that I believe we should continue to
modernize our electoral system, as we did in the last parliament
with the adoption of the new Canada Elections Act. The House
will be doing more of that this Thursday when it responds to
election law pursuant to a court decision. Probably later in
this parliament we will have another bill pursuant to the
contributions of the chief electoral officer, which he always
does before the committee, and we will strive to modernize our
election laws again.
The government's gradual modernization of our election laws is,
in my view, a prudent and balanced approach to a complex issue
that is at the heart of our system of democracy. I believe it is
the course that Canadians wish all hon. members to support. That
is why I cannot agree with the motion put before the House today.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I thank the government House leader for his comments and
want to refer to a couple of things he said.
He said that people want someone from home to represent them. I
do not disagree with that. There are PR systems in the world,
like Germany's for example, where there are single member
constituencies with half of the members elected riding by riding
and half elected according to the party's PR vote. In Germany,
for example, when they vote they get two ballots. They vote for
their local MP and their party of preference. They have what is
called a mixed member proportional system, which compensates for
these vagaries and distortions in the electoral system. In many
ways they get the best of both worlds.
Even now I would argue that electors do not always get a member
from home. The member's own leader, the Prime Minister,
occasionally names candidates to run in various ridings, so we
already have a system in which the party leader can refuse to
sign the nomination papers of someone who is nominated in a
particular riding and can parachute in a certain person. That
has happened. I remember sitting on that side of the House when
it happened. It has also happened on this side of the House and
it happens today, so I do not think that is an argument pro or
con a PR system.
The other point is the whole question of regional parties. I
agree with the minister across the way. I like to have broad
national parties with a national vision. I think it is good for
the country in terms of knitting the country together, but a PR
system could easily be designed, particularly in a federation
where we can have regional parties.
We could have PR done on a region by region or province by
province basis. I would not want to have a PR system where we
took the vote of the country as a whole and apportioned parties
in accordance with the national vote. My own preference would be
the German type of system, which is a mixed member proportional
system, doing it region by region or province by province. We
could still have the United Farmers of Ontario or the Bloc
Quebecois. We could still have a party in western Canada. What
is wrong with that? We could design a PR system that fits that
criteria as well.
I ask the government House leader across the way why he would
not be in favour of striking an all party committee to at least
look at the merits of PR and the kinds of PR models that might be
relevant to our country. Almost every democracy in the world has
PR of one sort or another.
We have a crisis in the country in terms of falling voter
turnout, alienation toward the political system and a parliament
that is very distorted in terms of its composition compared to
how people vote, so why not take a look at this? Let us have a
true political democracy wherein members of parliament can debate
the real issues of the day. Is there any greater issue than the
fundamental issue of democracy and voting? I do not think there
is.
This also leads to all kinds of other issues, so why not have a
parliamentary committee look at this issue, look at the various
models and then make a recommendation? We have not done that in
this country. If we do it, I would argue that we would be doing
the Canadian people a great service.
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Speaker, I profoundly disagree with
what the hon. member says.
First of all, he and his leader have stated that Canada is only
one of three countries with a population threshold of above eight
million—I do not know why that number is important—which, she
says, does not have a proportional representation system.
1100
The U.K. does not have a proportional representation system. As
far as the argument about Wales, since when is that a national
government? I would hope that is not what she is suggesting on
the floor of the House of Commons. France does not have a
proportional representation system. Actually it probably has the
closest to the reverse of that anywhere. It has a second round
to weed out even someone who had 49% of the vote. That system is
the opposite of what she says. It simply does not do that.
The member is arguing that a modification of the proportional
representation system on a region by region or province by
province basis is really what he wants. That is the opposite
proposition that was raised by his own leader about an hour ago
in the House when she argued that this would be a way to have
representation from across the country.
The member is now advocating that this is a way to ensure that
regions would have a higher proportion of people who purport to
represent that region rather than the national interest. That is
the opposite proposition which has now been raised. It is not
the same at all. As a matter of fact I agree with him. His
proposition, although undesirable, is probably what would result.
The member cites the German example where the greatest virtue is
that half of the MPs have no riding. Half of the MPs are elected
per riding; the others are proportional. The translation is that
half of them do not have a riding. I do not want a system where
half of the MPs do not have a riding, where they represent no one
except the whip of their party.
If there has been criticism around this place that party
discipline is too strong, could we imagine what it would do to
have people whose names would go up and down on the list only
based on whether or not the officials of their party would like
them? That is what we would have: no riding for half of the
members and, on top of that, chosen from a party list according
to the whims of someone who has nothing to do with what the
electors want.
Is that supposed to be better than what we have? I do not think
so. Our system may not be perfect, but it certainly will not be
improved by advocating a policy like that one.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Public Works and Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
was following the debate and I will start off by saying that I
was a little concerned by the reaction of the leader of the NDP
to my colleague, the member for Durham, who laid out some points
of view to his best knowledge. The leader of the NDP decided
that he was ignorant, arrogant and a few other words that she
used. That represents intolerance, which is exactly what
Canadians do not want. I think the member should accept that we
have to be open to ideas.
I should like to ask the member a question. Would he explain
whether or not the proportional representation typical model the
NDP is advocating would mean that a party could designate a
region where a person could come from and deem him or her to be
representative of the region simply because it does not have an
elected member there?
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Speaker, that is difficult to say.
I suppose it would depend on what model we would adopt, but
presumably that is exactly why this system is wanted. In other
words, a party that would not win the seat in a first past the
post system would have a second crack at it to take people from
its list and make them responsible or somehow the spokesperson
for the particular area of the country.
I do not know if that is bad per se. I do not believe that part
is inherently bad. I suppose all political parties where they
are not represented in the country have their shadow critics
visiting the area or they twin with another riding. They do all
these things right now. This is something that is done
informally by probably most caucuses in the House, save perhaps
for the Bloc Quebecois. Because of its particular orientation
that is not something it wants to do. I accept that, but for
most others that would probably be the case at the present time.
That in itself is not what is wrong. It is the whole business
of having MPs, who are not elected directly by anyone and who do
not represent ridings, sitting in the House with us and having
the same kind of participation as the rest of us even though no
one directly voted for them. To me that is not democratic.
1105
Some perhaps would say, and it is arguable, that a second round
is an idea. Of course that has nothing to do with proportional
representation. It is actually the reverse of it. It is a
debate.
However the issue of proportional representation, particularly
when tampered with in the way that it was advocated in some of
the speeches, is a form of proportional representation that is
not really proportional anyway. We kind of wonder what it is
supposed to achieve. If it is moderated by all these factors
then it ceases to be proportional. We have all of the negative
effects from it and presumably none of the benefits.
Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, this is my first opportunity to give a speech in the
House since the last election, although I did ask a question a
week or two ago.
I guess the time is appropriate to thank my constituents for
sending the Liberal appointee in my riding packing. My vote
percentage went up again for the third time, so that was pretty
good. The appointee in my riding, an NDPer who switched horses
in the middle of the NDP's mandate in B.C. to join the Liberals,
was sent packing with a lower percentage of the vote than the
previous Liberal candidate, so that was pretty good too. Actually
NDP members provincially are jumping ship at an increasing rate
because there is an election any day and the NDP are expected to
go down in a massive defeat in B.C.
I will read the motion and the amendment we are debating today:
That this House immediately strike a special all-party committee
to examine the merits of various models of proportional
representation and other electoral reforms, with a view to
recommending reforms that would combat the increasing
regionalization of Canadian politics, and the declining turnout
of Canadians in federal elections
The motion is really about fairness, despite all the words we
heard from the minister just a few minutes ago. Frankly it is
hopeless talking to the minister about fairness or about the idea
of proportional representation, because after all his party has
100% of the power with considerably less than 50% of the popular
vote. Why would he be the slightest bit interested in any
fairness? He has well under 50% of the vote and 100% of the
power. What could be better for them? It is not surprising.
Mr. Paul Szabo: That is democracy.
Mr. Ted White: Somebody yelled out “That is democracy”.
How in anybody's mind could it be democratic that they have 100%
of the power with less than 50% of the votes? It just does not
make any sense.
I heard the minister say a few minutes ago that he does not like
the idea of any type of proportional representation because there
is no consensus on how to go about implementing it. New Zealand,
the country that I am originally from, gave us a wonderful
example of how to go about doing it. In 1994, I think it was,
there was a referendum in New Zealand that asked the people
whether they wanted to change the system. That is democracy.
The people of New Zealand decided they did want to change the
system. Over the next 12 to 18 months elections New Zealand, or
whatever the body responsible for elections in New Zealand is
called, set about informing the people of New Zealand of the
alternatives.
Every home in New Zealand received a booklet of about 28 to 30
pages describing the various forms of proportional representation
and the likely outcome in an election. I have a copy of it in my
office. At the end of that period there was a second referendum
where the people of New Zealand chose the system they favoured.
They chose mixed member proportional, which is similar to the
system in Germany.
Within that system there are many variations: how the list is
appointed and whether they are elected or appointed.
1110
For the minister to stand there and say that there is no
consensus on how to proceed is silly. Frankly, I am surprised
the minister would be that silly.
Unfortunately, the motion is non-votable, so we all know that it
is pretty much meaningless to have this day of debate. It is sad
to say it but that is the reality. I heard the minister himself
say that it was like shovelling air. That is true. What a
disgrace that we can spend a whole day here debating and giving
careful thought to this topic but at the end of the day we cannot
even vote.
I realize the NDP members have the opportunity to choose which
of their motions will be votable and which will not, but I put
the question forward: Why should there even be any non-votable
motions? Why should anything in this place where there has been
a debate be non-votable? It defies logic to have a whole day of
debate in this place at a cost of hundreds of thousands of
dollars to run this place every day and not even be allowed to
vote on the issue at the end of the day.
The same logic applies to private members' bills. I spoke this
morning with a member from the Liberal side of the House who was
very disappointed that his private member's bill was made
non-votable. He had the feeling that it was because of
opposition members on the committee that his bill was not made
votable. The fact is we should not be facing this sort of
position. All private members' bills should be votable, just
like government business is votable in the House.
It is sad that we have a motion that is non-votable, but on top
of that we have a motion that the NDP members already raised in
this place less than a year ago. It puzzles me why they would be
revisiting something that we already debated less than a year
ago. Why did they not use their day on a votable motion about
parliamentary reform? Goodness knows there is plenty that needs
to be done in this place to make it more democratic. Why on
earth did they waste a whole day debating something they already
thrashed in private member's business a year ago?
Regarding the subject of the motion, I constantly hear the NDP
members bleating about the growing gap between the rich and the
poor. I hear them talking about child poverty, about NAFTA and
about the need for more social programs. Why have they not
brought any of those issues forward today instead of bringing
forward something they already debated 12 months ago?
The debate illustrates the reason why the NDP is in decline.
There is no new thinking there. There is nothing stimulating
about what it is doing. No wonder it is in decline. I guess
because it never wants to be the government it can pretty well
say anything it wants to.
I will give an example. During the election campaign I was at
an all candidates debate at Capilano College in my riding, which
is a well known hotbed of socialism in my riding. The NDP
candidate for North Vancouver was unable to come, so the member
for Vancouver East filled in that day. I must say that I do
enjoy debating the member for Vancouver East. It is always very
entertaining for both of us and for the audience as well.
In this particular case, the audience at Capilano College was
entirely on the side of the member for Vancouver East. The
member for Vancouver East promised anything. The students could
have free tuition as much as they wanted. They could have
interest free student loans. They could have their student loans
waived. They could have gay marriages. They could have anything
they wanted. Everything they asked for she said an NDP
government would give them.
Some of the students were in tears. They were so happy at what
they were being promised by the NDP they were sobbing in their
seats. Of course I got the thumbs down. I probably got a two
pointer out of ten.
The fact is that the NDP members are out of touch. They know
they can promise anything to any special interest group and never
be faced with having to enact those measures in this place.
One NDP member has talked a lot about parliamentary reform. One
way those members could have contributed would have been to have
proposed a motion today about parliamentary reform and what needs
to be done differently in the House. We could have even
re-debated the child poverty issue. They even get their own
history incorrect.
A motion was introduced and debated in the House on November 24,
1989. Every November we get regurgitated throughout the country about
how parliament promised to get rid of child poverty by the year
2000 and the NDP rush around the country saying that it promises
to get rid of child poverty by the year 2000.
1115
The fact is that is not what the NDP motion said in 1989. I can
read the exact wording. It states:
That this House express its concern for the more than 1 million
Canadian children currently living in poverty and seek to achieve
the goal of eliminating poverty among Canadian children by the
year 2000.
It was not to get rid of it but to seek to achieve it. The
reason it was worded that way is that it was the last day in the
House for Mr. Broadbent, the leader of the NDP at the time. It
was a votable motion and the whole place wanted to send him off
on a high note.
It was of course a motherhood and apple pie motion that would
seek to achieve and to try to eliminate something at some time in
the future, and everybody voted for it. Since then the NDP has
regurgitated the motion every February by promising to get rid of
child poverty by the year 2000.
Frankly, if the NDP can point to a country anywhere in the world
that has managed to do that—
Hon. Lorne Nystrom: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I hate to interrupt the hon. member but there is such a
thing as a rule of relevancy. We have a motion before the House
on parliamentary reform for proportional representation. I
wonder, Mr. Speaker, whether you would ask the member speaking to
be more relevant to the point.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): I am sure at some point
in time the hon. member for North Vancouver will tie everything
that he has said to date to the motion that is before the House.
Mr. Ted White: Mr. Speaker, of course I am tying it to
the debate. What I am trying to point out is that the members of
the NDP had a wealth of subjects that it could have debated today
and I am trying to assist them. If they had debated something a
bit different, the benches above us would be filled with the
media wanting to report it. Instead there is not a single person
from the media in this place today. I would be willing to bet
that there will be nothing, not a word, of a report in a
newspaper anywhere about what has happened in the debate today.
What I trying to do is help members of the NDP to see that
perhaps they could have got more bang for their buck if they had
discussed one of their critical issues instead of talking about
something we already talked about and got nowhere on less than a
year ago.
With regard to the parliamentary reform aspects, if we had truly
meaningful free votes in this place, the first past the post
system would not be as critical. It would not matter so much.
If each of us was truly representing our constituency views and
voting that way in this place, it would not matter that we were
elected by first past the post because representation would be
the key issue not how we got here.
On the other hand, as the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle knows, I
and my party are supportive—and the critic will be speaking
about this in more detail later—of the general thrust of the
motion. We spoke in favour of it in past times when he brought
this issue forward. The issue is not whether we are in favour of
the motion, it is whether they are getting a good bang for their
buck today.
Let us talk a bit more about parliamentary reform that they
could have introduced, quite apart from free votes. If the
private members' business was all votable then it would be
meaningful to bring back this motion in a votable form and during
private members' business.
We should have the ability to vote from our ridings when we are
there on business, as is done in some other countries. In this
day of technology, why do we actually have to be physically here
to stand in our places and vote on an issue, which we fully
understand and which we have been following? Just because we are
in our riding for a day should not exclude us from the ability to
vote. That is not democratic.
There are systems available now. We could even have fingerprint
recognition where we would put one of our digits into a little
machine which would recognize us in our riding. There is no
reason that we should not be able to vote remotely. When we are
away on parliamentary committees or overseas on some important
issue to do with parliamentary business, why should we be
deprived of the ability to represent our constituents by voting
in this place? It just does not make sense.
The only reason we are not moving toward some of these reforms
is the intransigence of the minister opposite. He is not willing
to accept anything that represents a greater degree of democracy.
He talks the good talk about modernizing the elections act but
when push comes to shove he is not interested in doing that.
He had to be dragged kicking and screaming to the bill that he
tabled this week to change the Canada Elections Act to allow
parties with 12 candidates to have their names on the ballot
during elections.
1120
When the new elections act came through this place several
months ago and the small parties, including the Communist Party
and the Green Party, came to Ottawa to give committee evidence,
they all said that the 50 candidate rule was unfair. I agreed
with them. We worked out a compromise; 12 candidates, the number
that is recognized in this place.
We went to the minister with that compromise and he said no.
What happened? He got involved in an expensive court case which
was won by the Communist Party of Canada. The court ruled that
two members were sufficient to constitute a party and insisted
that the minister come back to this place and fix the problem
before February 15. The day before the deadline he introduced a
bill to change the number to 12.
The minister argued that he was trying to improve democracy by
modernizing the bill but he had to be dragged kicking and
screaming to that point, only to accept the number that was
proposed in a compromise nine or twelve months ago. In the
meantime, he spent huge amounts of taxpayer dollars defending
that position.
I would predict confidently that he is into the same problem
with the Canada Elections Act, with the challenge by the National
Citizens' Coalition over third party advertising. He will spend
a fortune, probably millions of dollars, challenging it in the
courts only to have it struck down as unconstitutional as it has
been three times previously.
Those are the sorts of issues, if the NDP really wanted to be
forward thinking and creative, that would have moved us forward
from where we are. We should be talking about the things that
would make this place work better for the people we represent.
Another modernization we could do is, if the government would
not accept absolutely total outright free votes, maybe we could
agree that if, say, 30% of the total membership of the House,
which would be about 60 members at the moment, demanded a secret
ballot, that we would do something completely different. Let us
get outside the box. If 60 members in this place demanded a
secret ballot on a private member's bill or on a government
motion or a government bill, then we have a secret ballot. I
know the minister would argue immediately that we could not do
that because our constituents want to see how we voted. There is
some validity to that sort of statement.
However, the fact is that sometimes democracy would be served by
having a secret ballot in this place. The example I just gave,
of the 12 candidate rule, is a good example of where a secret
ballot could have fixed the problem. That side of the House was
compelled to vote for something that the courts were saying was
wrong. In a couple of weeks time they will vote 180 degrees
opposite for something completely different because they are
whipped into voting the way they are told, instead of voting with
common sense. There are good debates in the House where common
sense prevails. Members from the opposite side have told me that
they liked the idea I had talked about with a proposed bill but
that they could not vote for it.
There is something wrong with our democratic process when we
have that state of affairs in the House of Commons, where people
on the government side know that they should not be voting
against something but they are compelled to vote against it by
the whipping on that side of the House.
We could achieve a lot with a decent piece of parliamentary
reform.
Apart from parliamentary reform, members of the NDP could have
talked about other issues. I mentioned child poverty. They are
always on about taxing the rich and that corporations do not pay
enough income tax or that 1,000 corporations did not pay any
income tax this year. I have been in at least three public
debates with the member from Vancouver East where she has spouted
the usual rhetoric about corporations that do not pay income tax.
I have challenged her on all three occasions to name the
companies that did not pay the income tax and to tell me why they
did not. She has never come up with a list and has never come
up with the reasons. I know why. As soon as she gets the names
of the companies and looks at the reasons, she will see there are
very good reasons for not paying the income tax.
For example, the Royal Trust, I think, was used as an example
one time. It is a subsidiary of another company. It transferred
its profits to the parent company which then paid the income tax.
1125
Hon. Lorne Nystrom: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. There is such a thing as a rule of relevancy. No wonder
people do not think much of the institution. We have a debate on
a specific topic, PR, and we have a member who is hardly talking
about it at all. Mr. Speaker, I would like you to call him to
order and get him to address the motion before the House.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): Of course we are all
expecting the hon. member for North Vancouver to indeed tie up
his remarks to the subject at hand. On the other hand, if the
hon. member for Regina—Qu'Appelle has questions or comments, he
should feel free to stand up and I will recognize him.
Mr. Ted White: Mr. Speaker, as you know, I always manage
to tie it into the topic in the end and I certainly will in this
case.
As I was stating, this day could have been used to debate
critical NDP issues, such as corporations that do not pay any
taxes. I am sure that at least half of the reason the member
wants to keep stopping me is if there are NDP members watching
today all manner of myths are being dispelled about the rhetoric
that is handed out to them on a daily basis. Whenever I have
these people approach me in my office I always ask for examples
of the corporations that did not pay taxes and the reasons they
did not. When they do the research they find out that it is all
nonsense.
The NDP members could have used their day today for these other
topics and we could have talked about these critical key issues.
Instead of that, we are stuck with an issue that we have debated
before.
As other members of my party will say, we do support the thrust
of the motion. If it were votable today, we would be voting in
favour of it. Unfortunately, it is non-votable. That is just an
example of how undemocratic this place really is.
Mr. John Bryden (Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I commend the member opposite for his
remarks, particularly as they are aimed at the issue at point,
proportional representation. I would like to ask the member a
somewhat delicate question.
He alluded in his remarks to the possibility of being able, with
electronic voting, to vote from one's constituency. I would like
to ask him a question. Does he feel that an MP's primary
responsibility should be to be at parliament, on this hill at
least if not in this Chamber, when parliament is in session? In
other words, do his voters not actually expect him to be here in
Ottawa, at parliament, when the House is sitting?
Mr. Ted White: Mr. Speaker, that is a great question from
the member on the Liberal side: Do the constituents expect us to
be here in parliament when the House is sitting? That is a wide
ranging question.
In my experience, I have found that most people do not even know
when parliament is sitting, for a start. In the summertime, they
quite often ask when we are going back to parliament. I would
expect the hon. member probably gets the same sorts of questions.
People do not even know when parliament is sitting. However,
they also recognize, certainly in the west, that this place is
not terribly relevant to the process of governing.
Unfortunately, because of the lack of democracy in this place,
they know that the outcome of every vote is known before the
debates begin. They know that today when I stand here and give a
20 minute speech and answer questions it will not make one bit of
difference to the outcome of today's business.
In 1993, I made a promise to my constituents, and I repeated it
in writing in the North Shore News four days before the
vote in the election of 2000. I promised that while parliament
was in session that I would be here three days and in my riding
two days. The reason for doing that is so that I can meet with
my constituents and deal with their concerns, assist those who
want to come here to give evidence before parliamentary
committees, talk about the bills that are before the House and be
available because, frankly, many of us would recognize that a lot
more can be achieved dealing with our constituents than can be
achieved in this place.
There are many surveys that have been done in Canada by
Ipsos-Reid and other polling companies that have discovered that
the longer a person is in this place as a member the more
emphasis he or she places on helping constituents because it is
the one area where there is satisfaction, and virtually nothing
in this place gives satisfaction.
In terms of the voting from the constituency, of course at any
time while parliament is in session there are always large
numbers of people away on committee travel and overseas travel.
Those people should be able to vote remotely.
1130
In New Zealand there is a house rule that was adopted in 1996,
at first on an experimental basis and made permanent a year
later. Up to 20% of the caucus of each party can be absent at
any time and the whip votes by proxy for that 20%. That gives
flexibility for people to be away on committee travel or overseas
travel and yet there is 100% attendance all the time. Some may
argue it is cheating the system, but it is really no different
from being able to vote from the riding.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, the member who just spoke has been fighting the B.C.
election that is going to come in a few weeks' time, and I find
it very strange that he would also talk about why we are once
again putting the motion forward.
The Library of Parliament tells us that the last time there was
a vote on PR in this parliament was in 1923. The last time it
was debated as a private member's initiative prior to last fall,
when I had a motion that was votable before the House, was in
1979 when Jean-Luc Pepin, who was a Liberal member at the time,
had a non-votable motion on looking at the wisdom of the PR
system being part of our electoral system in Canada.
Last fall my Motion No. 155, which was votable and was similar
to the motion today, asked to strike an all party committee to
look at the wisdom of looking at elements of PR for our system.
This initiative has hardly ever been discussed in the Parliament
of Canada, so I am very surprised the member would be criticizing
us for putting forth an idea that has hardly ever been talked
about before. Just last week the member's own party had a motion
in the House dealing with the ethics counsellor. That was a
repetitive thing too because that was a promise of the Liberal
Party in the 1993 red book. The argument he is making is a
rather strange one indeed.
I want to ask the hon. member specifically about proportional
representation. He has studied the New Zealand system and I
would like to have him tell the House what kind of model of PR he
would think is relevant for our country. We are a unique
federation. We have the uniqueness and distinctiveness of
Quebec. Geographically we are the second largest country in the
world outside of Russia. We have very diverse histories and so
on. What kind of a model would he suggest we look at if indeed
we did have an all-party committee to take a look at this?
I also remind the House that I think the chief electoral officer
has a mandate in which he could look at PR. Therefore all we
need to do is strike a committee to look at various electoral
systems. I wonder what contribution he would make in regard to
the kind of model if we indeed had such a committee.
Mr. Ted White: Mr. Speaker, I would first say that the
member for Regina—Qu'Appelle should not be complaining that we
have not had a vote in this place since 1923 when he has made the
NDP's own motion today non-votable. If NDP members wanted a
vote, why did they not make it votable today? Why use today for
a non-votable motion if they only get one votable motion?
Everyone is laughing. Is that not a sad commentary? This is
what I said earlier. Why on earth are these motions non-votable?
It is an affront to democracy and everyone in this place should
be absolutely ashamed that it even happens.
In terms of our motion last week, which was votable, I think the
member would have to agree there was good bang for the buck in
that one. The Liberals voted against their own policy. The
newspapers and the media were very happy to talk about that one.
It is a shame that there will not be any coverage of today's
discussions.
In terms of the system I would support myself, as the member
knows I have been the critic for direct democracy right up to the
last election. I always took the position that I needed to be
neutral because people tend to be wedded to one form or another
of proportional representation. I always felt it would be
difficult for me to continue in my role as critic if people felt
that I was predisposed toward one system or another. I would
prefer to retain that neutrality at this time just on the off
chance that we ever get that all party committee. I would like
to be sitting on the committee with people knowing that I am
taking a neutral stand.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
find it interesting that the member refers to the issue of the
1989 resolution of parliament with regard to child poverty. I
think his recollection is quite right. In fact, it was a Friday,
there were only 25 members in the House and there was no vote.
In any event, the member did make a statement which I think is
heard in this place often enough, and maybe it deserves the
question. The member said that this place is not relevant
because the results of most votes are known even before they are
held. The member is probably right. It is reflective of the
fact that there are 172 members of the Liberal Party out of 301
members of parliament.
1135
I wonder whether the member would like to tell the House what
number of members a government needs to have to be able to win a
vote. Does it require 90% of the seats in the House and 90% of
the votes? Would that be acceptable to make it relevant? At
what level would he deem it to be relevant when there is a vote
in the House and there is a majority government? There must be a
point somewhere. If 100% of the seats were held by one party and
there was a vote, would it be relevant? I would really like to
know whether or not the member has a position in regard to at
what point the result of a vote of democratically elected members
of parliament has relevance.
Mr. Ted White: Mr. Speaker, the fact that we know the
outcome of votes in this place before the debates begin is not
reflective of the fact that the government has 172 members out of
301. It is reflective of the fact that there are no free votes.
The fact is that because there are no free votes in this place we
know the outcome of every vote.
The member asks me what numbers the government needs. If this
were truly a democratic place, the number the government would
need is the number it could convince to vote for its measure, so
that we could have meaningful debates here and meaningful input
at committees because the government would be challenged with the
task of convincing every member in this place that it was a good
measure. Each one of us would have a lot more power to
influence, to tweak and to make minor adjustments. Earlier today
I gave the example of the 12 candidate rule; it never would have
wasted millions of dollars of taxpayers' money because it could
have been solved right in this place with a free vote.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
since the core issue being debated today is democracy and how it
is exercised in Canada, allow me to first congratulate the
Speaker of the House on his election, since I had not yet had
the opportunity to do so. Mr. Speaker, I also congratulate you
on your appointment to the Chair.
I would also like to thank the people of Verchères—Les-Patriotes
who, for the third time, in November 2000, elected me to
represent them in the House of Commons.
Let us now turn our attention to the motion before us. The
Canadian Alliance member who just spoke seemed surprised that
the media will not be reporting on today's proceedings in the
House in the news at midday, this evening or tomorrow.
Based on what I have heard so far, I personally am not surprised
that the media are not interested in reporting such debates.
First, the New Democratic Party brought forward this motion in
favour of a system based on proportional representation. Then,
the government House leader rose and, for all sorts of
reasons—some legitimate and others totally fallacious—opposed any
form of proportional representation.
He went so far as to say “We do not even want to debate and
discuss this motion”. Finally, the member of the Canadian
Alliance member got up and said “This may be an important issue,
but you should have discussed this or that other issue instead”.
I respectfully submit to member of the Canadian Alliance that
this is none of his business. It is not up to him to decide
which issues other political parties may wish to debate.
The New Democratic Party is perfectly entitled to choose
whatever issue it may want to submit to the attention of this
House, without having to put up with criticism from other
political parties.
Furthermore, when the Canadian Alliance member said that the
debates in the House were utterly pointless because they were
not put to a vote, I think that he is underestimating or
trivializing their importance.
1140
Of course, it would be eminently desirable for every debate to
be followed by a vote so that parliamentarians' intentions could
be put on record. But I think it is pretty insulting to us as
parliamentarians to say that the discussions and debates we have
in the House are pointless, to say ,if I may take the logic to
its ultimate extreme, that freedom of expression is basically a
waste of time.
I think that we have this privilege of full free freedom of
expression here in the House especially. In no way would I want
to see us attempt to trivialize the opportunity we have to
express our views on a whole range of public interest issues.
As I said earlier and I repeat, it would be eminently
desirable for us to be able to vote on each subject debated, but
the fact of the matter is that this is not now the case. While
we are on the topic of the whole issue of electoral reform, we
should perhaps in fact look at a parliamentary reform that would
eventually result in votes on all issues that attract the
attention of the House.
I would like to address more specifically the New Democratic
Party motion, which reads as follows:
That this House strike a special all-party committee to examine
the merits of various models of proportional representation and
other electoral reforms, with a view to recommending reforms
that would combat the increasing regionalization of Canadian
politics, and the declining turnout of Canadians in federal
elections.
There are a number of elements of interest in this motion.
First, in connection with the statement about the desire to
create an all-party committee to examine the merits of various
models of proportional representation and other issue of
electoral reform, I do not feel it is heretical in any way to
state that it would be desirable for all parties to meet
together in a committee to debate such issues. The matter of
striking a committee is, I believe, an idea that merits looking
at, merits examination and analysis.
Now some may claim that there is already a committee in the
House mandated to examine all matters relating to the electoral
system, the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.
Should the government, for one reason or another, as seems
likely to be the case, for there will be no vote on this, decide
not to follow up on the wishes expressed by the New Democratic
Party for the striking of a special all party committee to
examine matters of electoral reform, perhaps the procedure and
House affairs committee, which is made up of representatives of
all parties in the House, could decide to act on this wish. This
could be done as a follow up on the report the Chief Electoral
Officer must file on the last federal election and to ensure that
we are able to make some amendments to the Elections Act in
order to modernize it and bring it more in line with the
expectations of Canadians and Quebecers.
There is another very important element in this motion: the
consideration of various models of proportional representation—I
will come back to this in a few minutes—and other forms of
electoral reform. Naturally, since the start of the debate,
the Liberals and the Canadian Alliance have taken some care to
limit the discussion to the question of proportional
representation. However, I draw to the attention of the House
the fact that the NDP motion is also intended to make us think
about other potential or foreseeable electoral reforms.
There is another part to the motion. Reference is made to
committee deliberations leading to a way to combat the
increasing regionalization of Canadian politics and the
declining turnout of Canadians in federal elections. I will
return to this in a few minutes.
First, though, I would say quite simply that it is a
simplification to claim that the growing regionalization of
Canadian politics and the declining turnout of Canadians in
federal elections is the fault solely of the current electoral
system.
1145
I think that there is a host of reasons behind these two
phenomena, and I think that it would be simplistic to say it was
the fault of the electoral system alone.
I would now like to say a few words on proportional
representation itself. Naturally the system of proportional
representation appears attractive from several standpoints and
would modernize the Canadian electoral system, since most
democracies in the world have either integrated an element of
proportional representation or have adopted the system of
proportional representation in its entirety.
There are some significant benefits.
Proportional representation, or at least the integration of a
proportional component, could ensure better representation for
minority groups such as cultural communities, the disabled and
women.
Political parties could decide to strike a balance between the
number of women and men in the House of Commons and ensure that
a larger number of women are on party lists, so as to increase
women's representation. The same would go for young people. When
it comes to representation, there are a number innovative
solutions to be considered here.
Another very important and interesting factor with a system that
is fully or partially based on proportional representation is
the idea that parliament would better reflect the various
ideologies among the public, that the House would better reflect
these ideologies. This would allow the small political parties
that have a difficult time getting candidates elected under a
single constituency single ballot system to have a voice in
parliament.
Incidentally, if Germany's electoral system did not have a
proportional component, the Green Party would never have been
represented in the Bundestag. Therefore, it is very important
for small political parties to have a system based on
proportional representation, so that they can be heard in
parliament.
Proportional representation would also eliminate the inevitable
distortions of the first past the post system. In a system such
as ours, it is paradoxical that a government elected with 38% or
40% of the vote can run the country and have almost 100% of the
power concentrated in its hands. With a system of proportional
representation, the distortions inherent in the present system
could be avoided.
As was pointed out earlier, a system of proportional
representation would result in greater co-operation among the
various political parties in the House, since the very survival
of a government, or its composition, depends on co-operation and
even coalitions between various political parties.
In countries with proportional representation, there is less of
this very rigid dichotomy between the government, which has all
the powers and sees itself as being in a position of almost
dictatorial authority for four years between elections, and the
opposition, which does its best to represent the public interest
to the fullest extent possible.
There are certain disadvantages to the system of
proportional representation. Thought needs to be given to how
proportional representation can eventually be incorporated into
the existing system while trying to avoid those disadvantages.
We need only think of the instability to which a system of
proportional representation can lead. We have seen this
especially in countries with a pure representation by population
system, such as Israel. This gives rise to a certain
instability. Governments are not in power for long and depend on the
co-operation of the various parties forming a coalition.
There was talk of a pizza parliament here, with five political
parties. What sort of parliament would there be with seven,
eight or nine parties?
1150
This would definitely be problematical and the situation will
have to be addressed within a study of electoral and
parliamentary reform. There could eventually be more than five political
parties. The rules would have to be changed to accommodate that reality.
The Leader of the Government in the House of Commons has raised
the problems connected to integrating proportional
representation with a first past the post system, in Germany for
example. To all intents and purposes, this leads to the
creation of two categories of MPs.
How can the two categories be reconciled: those elected by a
riding and those elected from a list put forward by their party?
This takes us to another problem we will eventually have to
address: to whom MPs are answerable in a pure or mixed
proportional representation system. To whom are they
answerable? If elected by the population of a riding, we tend to
think they are answerable to the people who elected them. If elected from
a list provided by the party, are they still answerable to the
people, or to the party? There is a problem here. How are we
going to reconcile all this?
I can foresee another really serious problem with the
proportional representation system, for the same reasons as were
just given by the hon. member for Regina—Qu'Appelle relating to
the opportunity the various regions and components of a
federation would have to make their voice heard, if the
electoral system tends to uniformize expectations and programs
countrywide.
As the hon. member for Regina—Qu'Appelle has said, a vote in
Newfoundland has the same importance as a vote in British
Columbia, Saskatchewan or Quebec. Obviously, for members of a
federation who have particular needs and expectations and wish
to make these known through a federal parliament, a proportional
representation system can be somewhat problematic. I am, of
course, referring to the very specific case of Quebec's position
within the Canadian federation.
How could we, if the system of proportional representation is
intended to give a platform to the most isolated ideas, give a
platform in a system such as this to a province that is, to all
intents and purposes, isolated within a federation, because it
is the only province with a francophone majority? Clearly in
our case this could create fairly significant problems.
The motion before us talks as well of examining other forms of
electoral reform. I would not want the government to close the
door on this idea of the NDP simply because it does not share
the view that there should be proportional representation.
At the moment, a system is in place in Canada, and, as we know
full well, it has certain imperfections. Winston Churchill said
that democracy was the least perfect of the political systems.
Our elections act, however democratic it may be, contains
certain imperfections and warrants a look.
The last election showed us just how many gaps there are in the
current elections act. It needs corrective measures. If there
is one thing the all party committee should consider with respect
to the Elections Act, it is first and foremost applying
corrective measures immediately to the existing act.
We need think only of the issue of the appointment of returning
officers. In the latest election, a number of incidents occurred across
Canada arising clearly from the inexperience and, in certain
cases, I would even say the incompetence of returning officers
in a number of ridings. Why is this the case? Simply because
returning officers are appointed not for their ability but
because of their partisan allegiance.
1155
Opposition parties are not the only ones to be concerned. The
Lortie commission, which the government House leader quoted
extensively earlier, wrote the following on page 483 of its
report, and I quote:
A cornerstone of public confidence in any democratic system of
representative government is an electoral process that is
administered efficiently and an electoral law that is enforced
impartially. Securing public trust requires that the election
officials responsible for administration and enforcement be
independent of the government of the day and not subject to
partisan influence.
This is not from mere opposition members.
It is from the report of the Lortie commission on electoral
reform and party financing.
Let me also mention a statement made by the chief electoral
officer himself, Jean-Pierre Kingsley, when he appeared before
the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, on
October 28, 1999. He said:
—when I go out on the international scene I do not recommend that
the Canadian system be emulated where it comes to the
appointment of returning officers. I clearly indicate, as I do
in Canada, that the present system is an anachronism.
Some changes could definitely be made to the existing
Elections Act regarding the appointment of returning officers,
the financing of political parties, the cap on contributions and
the restrictions as to their source.
I will conclude by saying that it is wrong to think or to
suggest that all the problems referred to in the motion, whether
regionalization or the declining interest of Canadians in
institutions and policies, are only due to the electoral system.
One only has to think about the government's ethics to see why
the public is losing interest, or why the Canadian federation is
dysfunctional when it comes to regionalization.
We should not try to explain or trivialize this issue by saying
that it is simply a matter of reforming the Elections Act.
[English]
Mrs. Betty Hinton (Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys,
Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I listened very carefully to
the comments made on both sides of the House. The proportional
representation being discussed today is very valuable, and it
should have been raised. I appreciate the fact that everyone has
been able to comment on this.
There were some things that were said that I take exception to
though. One came from my colleague in the Bloc who paraphrased
my caucus colleague's comments as freedom of expression is a
waste of time. That is not the case at all. That is not what he
was saying. He was saying why raise the expectations of the
House if there will be no a vote on the issue.
Another thing I find very offensive is that part of this is
saying there should be quotas. I do not accept quotas in any
form. I do not think people should be put in the House of
parliament based on their gender, disabilities or anything of
that nature. People are put in the House to represent the public
based on merit. That is the way it should stay.
I also took exception to some comments that were made by the
government House leader when he said “force their own agenda on
a nation as a whole”. I believe that is what we are talking
about when we talk about having some sort of reform. There are
people in parts of this country who rightly believe that they
have had the agendas of one party forced on them. Any sort of
parliamentary change that could lead to more freedom across the
country would be a benefit to all of us.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her
comments. First of all, I must say that I tend to agree with
her last comment regarding the intrinsic merits of parliamentary
reform, of electoral reform or of reform of our democratic
institutions in general and of its impact on the public good.
1200
I would, however, like to make two points with respect to my
comment on freedom of expression. For the benefit of the
Canadian Alliance member, I did indeed understand that the point
she was making was simply that there is not much use raising an
issue in the House if it is not put to a vote. I have already
said that I agreed with this point of view.
Nonetheless, and contrary to what she said, I am far from
thinking that what we are doing here today is a pointless waste
of time. In this regard, I pointed out that, if we took logic
to its ultimate extreme, we could conclude that freedom of
expression is a waste of time.
As for the issue of quotas, I do not know if she was referring
to my own speech, but I did not advance the suggestion that
there should be quotas for youth, the disabled, cultural
minorities and women, far from it.
I merely said that, in a system of proportional representation,
political parties could increase the representation of women,
youth, the disabled or cultural minorities simply by selecting
those whose competence is beyond reproach and who also meet
these other criteria, if I may say so, by putting them on their
lists for proportional representation.
To reply to my colleague's question with respect to quotas, that
was what I was talking about.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I wish
to ask a question of the hon. member of the Bloc Quebecois.
If I recall correctly, some time ago, when he was the Premier of
Quebec and leader of the Parti Quebecois, René Lévesque was in
favour of proportional representation. I am certain that all
members of the Bloc Quebecois share Mr. Lévesque's point of view.
Is the Bloc Quebecois whip in favour of a particular model of
proportional representation? This is my first question.
My second relates to Australia, which has the same system for
the House of Commons and also a Senate that is elected by a
system of proportional representation. That would be another
way to go.
Today, we are having a discussion just on the principle of
proportional representation.
There are, however, a number of models of this, including the
Italian, German, Australian, and English models. There are a
variety of models, therefore.
If we had an agreement in principle to use certain elements of
this system here, we could have an important discussion on the
which model we could have in Canada. This is why I have these
questions for my friend and colleague from the Bloc Quebecois.
Is he in favour now of a model for the system of proportional
representation and what does he want to see done with the
Senate, which is not elected? Do we need to have elections for
the Senate? What could we do about that other institution?
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, I think that my colleague is
quite right to point out that, like the Parti Quebecois, the
Bloc Quebecois came out at its last convention in support of the
idea of proportional representation in an independent Quebec.
There is not a shadow of a doubt about that.
I explained earlier that, within the present federal system, for
the reasons he gave regarding the protection of smaller or less
important groups, we have
some concerns about the application of a system of proportional
representation across Canada.
I also expressed other concerns and reservations with respect to
the system of proportional representation, but generally we
recognize the advantages of such a system.
That said, to respond to my colleague from Regina—Qu'Appelle, I
return to the wording of the motion, which invites us to examine
various models with a view to defining what would be most
desirable for Canada and, more broadly, and not simply with
respect to proportional representation, what electoral reforms
would be appropriate for Canada.
In this regard, I agree entirely with the idea of creating such
a committee, or of giving such a mandate to the Standing
Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.
Generally speaking, the committee's mandate is to oversee the
reform, if necessary, of federal parliamentary structures and
procedures.
1205
As for the Senate, Canadians' lack of interest in federal
politics in general, which is growing as we saw during the last
federal election, since the participation rate was among the
lowest in Canadian history, relates, as I said earlier, to this
whole issue of rather opaque transparency, if I can use that
expression, on the government's part, to its control over the
affairs of the state. The government's ethics are questionable,
to say the least.
I do think that the Senate is itself a perpetual irritant to the
collective psyche of Canadians and Quebecers, who do not see the
need, in a modern world, for such an archaic institution. If the
Senate must be reformed, then so be it. But as I think the
member for Regina—Qu'Appelle said, I feel that we should consider
abolishing it instead.
It is clear that in the current context the Senate, in its
present form, does not arouse, if I may use that expression, the
interest of voters in federal politics. Rather, they feel that
an old system is being perpetuated, a system that no longer
matches the new realities, a transparent democratic policy, an
exemplary public policy of integrity.
The majority of our fellow citizens, as we know, see the Senate
as a house of patronage.
[English]
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, it is my
pleasure to share my time with this handsome young man, the
member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough.
The motion before us calls attention to the serious problem
confronting the Canadian system of government. I congratulate
and thank the New Democratic Party for bringing forward the
matter for debate in the House.
Our system of government and the means by which we are elected
are in crisis. This is a horrible situation brought about by
voter cynicism and apathy. I need not tell the House that voter
turnout rates have been declining. Everyone has been talking
about it. There is a marked sense that it does not matter if I
vote or not. That is what I hear back home.
They talk about the fact that many of the backbenchers on the
government side have to do what they are told. They have to vote
the way they are told. People have lost faith in the
parliamentary system.
It is insufficient for us to examine only the problems facing
our system if we do not take a critical look at ourselves to
determine what has caused this dark shadow which has cast itself
over our democracy. While we do not as yet have the official
report from the chief electoral officer on the 2000 general
election, it is clear that there is a growing indifference toward
the political system across Canada.
Canadians are opting for single issue groups instead of
political parties as a place to voice their concerns. We see it
every day on the Hill. People come up here to protest because
they feel that their voices are not being heard in the House of
Commons.
Mr. John Bryden: Yours is.
Mrs. Elsie Wayne: I am glad to hear that. The Liberal
member just said that my voice is being heard. I would like my
people back in Saint John to know that.
As the motion points out, there is disturbing evidence of
continued regional alienation. That is a sad thing. Today we
see a five party system in the House of Commons. Before 1993 we
did not see that. This has caused a great deal of problems in
the House. A government that makes light of regional differences
and whose Canada is the Canada of the sixties and seventies has
created part of that problem.
Another problem is the abuse of the trust and authority vested
in us as members of parliament and in the members yonder who have
formed the government.
1210
Last fall's election was totally unnecessary. It was called
early, not out of conviction but out of convenience for the
Liberal Party. Calling an election when the opposition was not
yet prepared was about politics and not about principles.
Elections Canada has suggested that the federal election cost
taxpayers over $200 million. Let us imagine what incredible
benefits we could have received by using that $200 million in
other ways.
Let us think of the ever present crisis in the health care
system. If we assume an average of $150,000 for a doctor, we
could have afforded 1,274 more family physicians. We could have
had over 5,000 more nurses. We could have funded a four year
medical program at Dalhousie University for over 6,000 students.
Let us imagine the appreciation of the Canadian people had the
federal government invested in 80 MRI units at a cost of about
$2.5 million each instead of wasting $200 million. St. Joseph's
Hospital and the Saint John Regional Hospital in my riding would
have been eternally grateful if the federal government had
invested in new equipment for our hospitals.
The government could have chosen to give that money directly
back to Canadian taxpayers. If it wanted to give a GST rebate on
heating oil, it could have provided all Canadians with it, not
just those who are in jail. This would have cost a total of $118
million.
The government could have provided a $500 tax credit for
emergency service volunteers, such as our brave volunteer
firefighters. The excise tax on diesel fuel could have been
eliminated. This is a tax that is crippling our trucking
industry for the same $200 million that the government instead
chose to spend on an exercise in personal ambition.
Fifteen minutes ago I was passed a document which states that
Canadian government officials suggest that the monetary funding
of the Kosovo project for the RCMP and the police forces for
budget years 2001-02 and 2002-03 will suffer significant budget
cuts. This is once again because the money was wasted. This is
not what the people of Canada want.
I do not have to tell members that there are many in our country
who are far less fortunate than we are. A $200 million
investment in our food banks could provide well over 36 million
meals, 2 million food baskets for families in need or could fund
610 food banks for a full year. The possibilities are endless.
Three areas where that money could have been spent that are
close to my heart include fully compensating the merchant navy
veterans, putting that money directly into new equipment for our
armed forces, or even the establishment once and for all of a
national shipbuilding policy.
When Canadians see such government waste, when they see so many
missed opportunities, is it any wonder why they have lost faith
in parliament? It distresses me greatly that our people are so
indifferent to who now forms the government of our country that
they are unwilling to vote. In the process they elect officials
by default.
The NDP motion suggests that one option might be some form of
proportional representation but it also allows for other
electoral reforms. The door is open to other potential avenues
of change.
In the last election the PC Party platform recognized the
importance of electoral reform and promised to examine a number
of possible changes, including proportional representation in run
off elections.
We also recognize that many people are happy with the status
quo. We do agree that there needs to be a full and open debate
before any change can be contemplated. We must gauge whether
there is an appetite in the country for the kind of dramatic
changes to our basic principles of government that might well be
needed to set our system straight. The motion agrees with our
position and calls on the House to begin a serious study of all
the alternatives that are worthy of our support.
Reaching back through our PC heritage, I must caution members of
the perils of opening what are really constitutional questions.
There are always difficulties in the details.
1215
Discussions of that kind have always brought with them a
balanced share of both unity and division. I believe we all
agree in the House that one thing our country does not need is
further division.
My party has proposed that we restore the value of our
parliament for Canadians to have faith in their system of
government. The onus is on us to make the system worthy of their
pride.
Part of the restoration involves our giving power back to the
people and the elected representatives who they send to Ottawa,
not only the Prime Minister or those he chooses for his cabinet.
Our American neighbours elect a president and I am thankful to
the Fathers of Confederation that they resisted the temptation to
forge our country in their image. Simple matters of compassion
and common sense have become issues of competence in government.
We all know of examples when members of the governing party have
wanted to vote against their party's stand but have been
intimidated and threatened until they have literally broken down
into tears or they have been forced to sit on the opposite side
as an independent. This was the case with respect to child
pornography, hepatitis C and the ethics counsellor.
It is important for us to praise those precious few members on
the other side who have had the courage in the past, some even in
the recent past, to challenge their government when they believe
it to be wrong.
At the end of the day the challenges we must overcome as a
parliament are varied and wide ranging, so too must be the
options we examine.
I say again without hesitation that the New Democratic Party and
the member for Halifax should be commended for bringing the issue
to the House for debate. Whatever the solution to our problems
may be, it is only through reasoned debate in this great House
and in the homes of Canadian families that we will arrive at it.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I wish to make a comment in terms of our electoral
system compared to the rest of the world. I have a list of 98
countries that have a proportional representation system or a
semi-proportional representation system in their legislatures
dependent on whether they are a unicameral state or, in the lower
house, of a bicameral state like we have in our country.
There are also countries that have proportional representation
in the second House. Australia, for example, has first past the
post in the lower house and they have proportional representation
in the senate. Most countries in the world do have a system that
has PR.
I would like to take a minute to place on the record some of the
countries that do have a PR system. They are: Australia,
Austria, Belgium, Brazil, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland,
Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan,
Mexico, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal,
Russia, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Ukraine, and
Venezuela, just to mention a few. Since PR—
Mr. John Bryden: Mr. Speaker, I do protest. This is a
debate in the House on an issue that the member for
Regina—Qu'Appelle has told us he thinks is important. Reading a
list into the record is not part of the debate nor relevant to
what we are discussing. I would suggest that he should go on
with his question.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): This is not really a
point of order, but I would ask the hon. member for
Regina—Qu'Appelle to come to the point, please.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom: Mr. Speaker, this period of time is
for either questions or comments. I said I had a comment. This
demonstrates the need in our country when there are 100 countries
in the world that have an element of PR in their lower houses or
in their house if they are a unicameral system. Other countries,
like Australia, have it in the other house, the senate, where all
the members are chosen by PR.
This is extremely relevant in terms of looking at what we want
and perhaps learning a little bit from other countries around the
world. We may not have all the solutions in Canada. Perhaps the
Germans, the Scandinavians or others have some answers to the
questions we are looking at.
Would the member for Saint John like to comment on the fact that
so many other countries have at least an element of PR?
Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Mr. Speaker, I agree that there are
other countries with PR. When I was mayor, I was asked to go to
Germany to look at unification. I met with many of the
representatives of the German government while I was there. I
have also had the opportunity to do that in St. Petersburg,
Russia and in other countries.
1220
There are different forms of government. When I sit here and
see how torn are some of my colleagues on the government side,
for whom I have great respect, I realize the system in place now
must change. It is time to have an all-party committee where we
sit down and work it out all together.
Mr. John Bryden (Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am someone on the government side who
has voted against the government on major legislation at least
four times and countless times on private members' legislation. I
do not feel torn. I feel that I am still a valued member of this
side. The reality is that we always, as MPs, have the option of
voting as we think it is necessary, not just for our constituents
but for the issues as we understand them.
I have not noticed many instances where her party members have
actually voted against their party's position on any major
legislation. I would ask the member for Saint John to comment on
that. Does she apply free votes only on the government side or
would she see them on her side as well?
Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased the hon.
member has raised this point. In 1993 when I was elected and
Jean Charest was the leader of our party, he told me that he
wanted me to stay. I told him that I would stay but I told him
never to tell me how to vote, and he never ever did.
Since then on this side of the House we have had the freedom to
vote on all the moral and major issues. When the Liberal member
said he voted against his government and that he is still sitting
there, I wonder whatever happened to poor old Nunziata after he
stood up and voted against the government. They told him to go
over there and sit in the corner somewhere, but he could not vote
again with the Liberals. He was gone. We have a lot of free
votes and we will continue to have them because we—
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): The hon. member for
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise to take part in the debate on
what is a very important issue and again to echo the comments of
the ever loquacious and relevant member for Saint John, New
Brunswick. She has pointed out that the NDP has brought forward
a motion that is very much relevant and very much on the minds of
many Canadians.
I have listened with interest to the comments of the government
House leader that this was not something he encountered during
the past campaign. He did not feel that the majority of
Canadians were bursting with enthusiasm for any sort of
parliamentary reform.
However, the outcome of the election is what highlights the
importance of this issue. As we saw in previous elections, for
example in 1997, we had a majority government elected by 38% of
the Canadian electorate, which resulted in a disproportionate
majority government.
Mr. John Bryden: You wouldn't say that if it was a
Conservative government, would you?
Mr. Peter MacKay: Mr. Speaker, when in opposition the
member opposite like most Liberal members used to rail against
the government and the need for proportional representation. We
have seen this kind of pliable stance taken time and time again
by not only that member but the government House leader saying
that things had to be changed and that a new system has to be
brought about.
Now they sit pretty. They sit in an opportunity before
Canadians with the chance to bring about real parliamentary
reform. Will it happen? Absolutely not. Will they give lip
service to it? Will they talk about ways to modernize
parliament? Yes, they will.
They will talk to Canadians endlessly about the pressing need
for electronic voting and try to pass it off as electoral reform.
It is absolute nonsense. It would allow government members to
stay away from the Chamber and it would allow voices of the
opposition to be further muted.
We have seen an unprecedented period in the last seven to eight
years of Liberal administration where the government has done
everything in its power to mute the opposition. It has done
everything to essentially take away methods by which the
opposition could raise relevant issues, important objections to
whether it be government legislation, policy direction or
legitimate issues the opposition has heard from its constituents.
We have seen systematic efforts to emasculate the opposition in
that regard.
1225
I would characterize the motion that is before the House in a very
non-partisan way. It is to be commended for recommending a
special all party committee to examine the merits of various
methods of proportional representation. It also does not limit
the debate to just proportional representation. It is a broad,
all encompassing, all inclusive motion that calls upon all
members of the Chamber to take part in the debate, to flesh out
the matter and to give it some substance. We know that is the
last thing the government wants to do and the last thing we will
see. The simple reason for that—and the member opposite may
holler his righteous indignation—is that it is not in the
government's interests to change a system that rewards it. There
is no appetite to bring about a change that will undermine the
current government's ability to be elected.
As was demonstrated in the past, by low voter turnout and the
proportionately low electoral support, there is no interest in
changing the system that might eke away or somehow result in the
government not being re-elected. That is not in the interests of
the current government.
The temptation in the debate will be to focus on proportional
representation but I do not believe that is the intention or the
fashion in which the motion is before us. It mentions
proportional representation but it leaves the door open to look
at other methods of electoral reform.
Going outside the traditional party parliament system is a way
in which this place can gain greater relevance in the hearts and
minds of Canadians. Empowering individual members of parliament
is also a very important part of the debate.
The faith that Canadians have in their representatives is at the
very root of this issue and is at the very heart of what should
be accomplished throughout the debate and throughout future
debates if this motion were to pass in a committee.
It is important that Canadians understand the significance of
committees. Committees go on sometimes out of the glare of the
media. They are without the partisan tone that we all tend to
fall into in the Chamber. Committees are where legitimate work
can be done, the heavy slogging, and where the opportunity exists
to hear from impartial stakeholders in matters such as this.
Committee work is crucial to the inner workings and the success
of parliament. On the one hand it is unfortunate that the public
does not have access to all of that work, but it is important
that it is done in a forum where real ideas can be discussed
without the sometimes poison partisanship that ekes into the
public debate.
It has been mentioned as well that much of the power that is
lost by members of parliament has been consumed by lobby groups
or interest groups that take a particular position on any given
issue. That is fine. That is a natural system that has evolved
as well.
However, lobby groups that have access or trade on access to
government becomes a little more troubling. When power is
increasingly concentrated, as we have seen under the Liberal
government, in the PMO and those who surround the Prime Minister,
either by favour or appointment, this is where it becomes
undemocratic. It becomes most troubling when people trade on
access and when people can bring about and effect decisions
because of a personal or past connection, whether it be former
cabinet ministers or otherwise. This is where democracy starts
to come undone. The erosion and the rot sets in when individual
members are not feeling empowered to the extent that they feel
they have legitimate input into our system.
Time and time again in the House of Commons, the practice of
this government has been to make public announcements, important
shifts in policy, important public pronouncements in the press
gallery across Wellington Street as opposed to standing here
before Canadians and displaying respect for not only their own
colleagues but for opposition members who carry the same burden,
and I do not say burden in the negative sense, but carry the same
responsibility of being elected by Canadians.
Those announcements are not made here. They are most often made
across the way in front of the press or they are leaked. The
trial balloons are sent out prior to the announcements actually
being made public. That practice has to stop.
1230
I come back to the issue of committees. There was a recent
opportunity to empower and put greater faith in committees by
giving them the opportunity to elect chairmen, but again this
would not be consistent with the PMO's reign of power, with the
hold on those committees to control the agenda and to control the
membership. If one is representing the PMO, one does not want to
have a rogue chairman who might somehow be out of step or out of
line with the PMO's thinking on any given issue. The government
completely passed up this opportunity, displaying once again my
point that this talk of parliamentary reform, this lip service
that we hear from the government, is really just that. There is
really no genuine intent to reform this place, because it would
undermine, undercut and erode the ever increasing concentration
of power that we have seen in the Prime Minister's office.
Do not take my word for it. Do not take any member of
parliament's word for it. History will bear this out.
Professors of politics have repeatedly suggested that this is the
case in the country. It is well documented.
I know my time is brief. I want to again suggest that we have
an opportunity here to take part in a very meaningful debate to
discuss ideas about parliamentary reform and electoral reform. I
very much associate those two because it lends greater legitimacy
to parliament if we have a system in place in which Canadians
have faith.
The member for Regina—Qu'Appelle has listed at length the
number of countries—100 plus—around the world that have
embraced a system of proportional representation or a derivation
thereof. This is an opportunity for Canadians to learn more
about what sometimes is seen as an overly complicated system but
is not. There are systems that working very effectively in
places like Australia and Ireland and in places that have a
history of democracy much longer than our own.
I appreciate the opportunity to partake in the debate, although
I do not appreciate the endless hyena heckling that is coming
from across the way. This debate once again demonstrates that we
in this place have an opportunity to say what we have to say on
an important subject such as this.
Mr. Roy Bailey (Souris—Moose Mountain, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I have listened to the debate with
great interest. I have studied this from time to time, maybe not
as much as the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle, but I have been
very interested in it.
I would like to ask the member a question. You mentioned the
fact that the Liberals formed a government with 38% of the vote.
That too was a regionalized vote. How would proportional
representation affect or change the position that I find my
constituents in, where we have two government members elected
from the province and some 16 or 14 more from across the west? If
we had proportional representation, you still would not find a
member of the ruling party standing on his or her feet and
speaking out for the constituents who are going downhill very
quickly. Proportional representation might change the
composition, but in a country as wide as Canada I still think we
would fail to get regional issues addressed by the House.
At present Saskatchewan has two Liberal members. Never once,
going into my second term, have I seen anyone on that side of the
House standing up in support of true agricultural reform that
would benefit the people in western Canada. Look at what
happened in the November election. Could the hon. member tell us
how proportional representation would benefit my constituents and
put them at ease that their voice was going to be heard by the
government?
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): Before I give the floor
to my colleague, I would like to remind members to address their
comments and questions to the Chair, please.
Mr. Peter MacKay: Mr. Speaker, to respond directly to the
question, I think there are two issues that the hon. member for
Souris—Moose Mountain has pointed out. There is the issue of
whether there would there be more opposition, as opposed to
whether the members elected under the current system in
government would have a greater say or a greater ability to speak
out for regional issues.
1235
I think it is fair to say that there will always be regional
issues that arise. I am very proud of the province that I come
from and of that region in northern Nova Scotia of
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough and all that it has accomplished
and will accomplish. I bring those issues forward on behalf of
my constituents, as does the hon. member.
There are two separate issues here. One is the issue of having
a voice in government, and the effective individual ability to
raise regional issues or issues of importance also on a national
scale is something different. The dynamic that exists within the
current government does not speak to that. It does not encourage
that. It does not embrace individuality.
The other issue about how it would result in a change in the
current dynamic or the current makeup of the House is that under
proportional representation, for one thing, we would not have a
majority government. Second, I would suggest that there would be
greater representation under that system in terms of it really
expressing the will of the people. For example, if we had not a
first past the post system but a system of runoff, we would not
have these types of anomalies whereby members of parliament are
elected with such a low proportion of the vote. I think that is
how the dynamic might differ if we had a system such as that.
I thank the hon. member for his question. I know that he is
engaged and interested in this issue as well.
[Translation]
Mr. Ghislain Lebel (Chambly, BQ): Mr. Speaker, it is always
very interesting when new ideas such as these are advanced. The
danger, however, comes when they are taken to extremes. A
politically correct attitude can go too far.
I worked in a party that talked about proportional
representation. One thing led to another and suddenly all sorts
of minorities—visible and invisible minorities, women, sexual
dissidents—wanted to be represented in parliament.
The result would be that one person could have four votes: one by
virtue of his citizenship and three more by virtue of his other
attributes. Is this not a danger?
[English]
Mr. Peter MacKay: Mr. Speaker, I think the issue is not
to rush towards judgment in changing our system. No one is
advocating that. Even the mover of the motion has suggested that
we go about this in a very pragmatic and practical way, which is
to have an all party committee look at different forms of
potential proportional representation or other changes to the
electoral system.
I agree that minority rights are always important. That is very
much a part of this debate. I am encouraged by the level of
interest of those who have taken part in the debate today.
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I am glad that the member for
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough is encouraged by the level of
debate because to some extent, although I was encouraged by the
level of debate coming forward from the Progressive Conservatives
on the issue, I have not been encouraged by the level of debate
coming forward from some quarters of the House. I think the
attitude of the Liberal members on this has generally been far
too defensive and not open and exploratory enough as to how we
might address some agreed upon problems in our electoral system.
For the record, Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with
the hon. member from Winnipeg North Centre.
I am disappointed in the defensiveness of the Liberals on the
motion. We made this a non-votable motion for a reason. We
thought that we might create an opportunity for non-partisan
debate in this place. There are legitimate arguments to be made
in favour of incorporating some element of proportional
representation and there are legitimate criticisms of
proportional representation as it has been implemented in many
countries.
It would have been nice to have had that kind of debate. We
were trying to transcend the sort of cheap shot culture that
sometimes develops in the House. Some members who I sometimes
associate with a higher level of debate have disappointed me
today by being so ready to partisanize the debate.
1240
In any event, I want to pick up on the point made by the member
for Souris—Moose Mountain. He was a member who did try to
engage the topic and I thought he asked a good question of the
member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough. He said that even if
there were more members from the west on the government side, he
had no confidence that they would be saying what he wanted them
to say.
However, that is to miss the point. It is to miss the point
that regions have diverse points of view. What the problem is in
our current system the way it has developed is that it creates
the impression that regions only have one point of view: that
there is only one point of view from Alberta, the Alliance point
of view; that there is only one point of view from Ontario, the
Liberal point of view; that in the last two parliaments there has
been only one point of view from Quebec, the Bloc point of view.
The list goes on and on of times in which it seems, if we look at
parliament, that there is only one point of view from a
particular region.
I say to the hon. member from Moose Mountain that his question
is a good example of the problem. He assumes that there is only
one point of view from the west. Indeed, I think that is a
characteristic of his party, which I sometimes find offensive,
that is, the fact that it sometimes pretends to speak for all of
the west in the way that western Progressive Conservatives once
did. Even when there were three NDP governments and NDP members
of parliament galore in western Canada, there was still this
pretension, particularly on the part of right wing western
Canadians, that somehow they spoke for the west. They speak for
one point of view in the west, but they do not speak for all
westerners.
What we want to see is a parliament in which that diversity of
views that exists within regions, not between regions, is
reflected here in the House of Commons, not just for the sake of
accuracy, but because we believe that would lead to a parliament
and a political culture that would be less divisive, that would
tend more toward national unity, that would create fewer
opportunities and less temptation for political parties to
exploit regional perceptions, regional hostilities and regional
grievances, both real and perceived, in order to obtain electoral
success, electoral success in a particular region but often at
the expense of a more national political success.
At a time when we are talking about national unity in Canada, as
we always are, I suppose we could say, at a time when western
alienation is in the headlines and of course at a time when
Quebec separatism is still in the headlines, it would be very
important for us to at least consider—and this is all the motion
asks parliament to do—setting up a process by which we could
consider ways in which we might, through electoral reform,
alleviate the problem that I have just identified. We would then
stop having, as I tried to say earlier in a question and comment
opportunity, an electoral system which throws up, no pun
intended, these homogeneous regional identities that mislead
Canadians and lead Canadians into a way of looking at political
parties and the political culture in their regions that denies
the heterogeneous as opposed to the homogeneous nature of their
regions when it comes to politics.
If only, and I say this partly facetiously, all provinces could
be like some provinces that tend to have a diverse political
culture and elect members from all political parties. I am
thinking of my home province of Manitoba as a province that does
so more consistently than others. There are other provinces like
Nova Scotia which will do that, although sometimes a certain
party gets blanked out there as the Liberals did in 1997.
1245
My point is this, without wanting to get into the sort of
parliamentary and political trivia of who got elected where and
when, we have a serious problem in Canada in terms of the
regionalization of our politics and the regionalization of our
parliament.
What the motion is asking the House to do could be done if there
was consensus, but obviously there is not. We were wise on two
counts. We rightly predicted that if we moved a votable motion
it would lose because the government has demonstrated no interest
in this project. We wanted to make it non-votable at this point
because if there was a consensus we could move by consensus or by
unanimous consent. We wanted to make the point that we should be
having this debate in a non-partisan context with the best
interests of the country in mind, rather than the best interests
of the Liberal Party in mind.
I do not make any apologies for being partisan. I have seen the
smiles on the faces of the Liberal members. They are basically
saying what the Prime Minister said to me last year when I asked
him a question based on this very same idea. I asked him whether
or not he would consider agreeing to an all party committee that
would look at proportional representation. He said “the NDP
always lose, no wonder they want a different system”.
Yes, we always lose, that is fair enough, and the Liberals
always win, or so they think they do, and most often they do. It
is a very successful political party. Surely there is a
responsibility on the part of a political party with so much
responsibility to ask itself just every once in a while, or on a
day like today on a non-votable motion, whether or not there is
not something that might be in the interests of the country which
is not in the short term interest, or for that matter the long
term interest, of the Liberal Party.
If the Liberals are interested in the whole question of majority
and minority government, which is another thing talked about, I
do not take it for granted that whatever system we might come up
with will always produce minority governments. Some studies have
been done that showed how one could have an element of
proportional representation but would also still ensure
majorities, except that those majorities would be more
representative. Canadians would know that the people who were in
that majority caucus were from right across the country and not
exclusively from one particular region.
If the majority-minority hang up is the Liberal hang up, take
that hang up into the all party committee meeting and look at
models that might be designed to address that concern, rather
than dismissing out of hand the idea that this would be a good
thing to do.
I am very disappointed in the government's response today and in
the response of some members. However, all in all it has been
partly the kind of debate that we had hoped to achieve.
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague who is a
long time veteran of the House of Commons. He has been pushing
reforms like this in a very even handed manner. He is not saying
that it will benefit strictly our party or diminish another
party. He is basically saying is we need this debate for all
Canadians.
My question for him would be how do we translate the debate
today into the average Canadians' lives to make it relevant so
that they can push their members of parliament to have this
debate in the future?
Mr. Bill Blaikie: Mr. Speaker, one thing that would be
nice is if this particular debate was being covered more
thoroughly by the media. Maybe it is being covered remotely,
anonymously.
Sometimes we are criticized in this place because all we do is
engage in scandal mongering and partisan activity. When a
political party brings forward a motion that tries to elicit an
intelligent, constructive debate on a topic which elsewhere in
the country is being discussed in an intelligent, non-partisan
way and to the extent that we have, but not totally, I would hope
this would be the kind of thing that would be covered.
This is a concern that goes right across the political spectrum.
I say this particularly to the member for North Vancouver who
spoke on behalf of the Alliance Party. I am told he was not at
his best in contributing to the debate.
1250
This is the kind of issue that brings together a Judy Rebick on
the left and a Walter Robinson on the right, the National
Citizens Coalition. I guess where it does not have any
resonance, or so it would seem today, is in the so-called centre,
the Liberals. I say so-called centre because the Liberals really
are as right wing a party as we would ever want to find on most
issues. They see themselves as exercising the modern equivalent
of the divine right of kings to govern. It is that sense that
comes from the Liberals that somehow they have this divine right.
It is such an illegitimate divine right. It is a divine right
that comes from very seldom obtaining a majority of the votes in
any given federal election.
In answer to the question, we need to get out there and talk to
individual Canadians about the need for electoral reform and
for proportional representation so that they can make their vote
count. That might not always be helpful to the NDP. I do not
think we should assume that. There are people who would like to
vote for the Green Party, for instance. They vote NDP now, where
the NDP is competitive or either the incumbent is NDP or is seen
to be a possible winner, because they see the NDP as being more
of an environmental party than the other parties. However, if
they could vote green and make their vote count, in terms of
getting Green members into the House of Commons on the basis of
proportional representation, that might be harmful to New
Democrats.
We will all win and lose in various ways depending on the
various permutations and combinations at any given proportional
representation system and any given election. However, the real
winner, if we do it right, would be Canadian democracy.
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I want
to commend the hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona for what I
think is his hallmark to make an appeal to all members to rise
above the short term considerations, to rise above the partisan
considerations and think about what the objective of this
exercise is and what is the objective of the debate is.
I know the member for North Vancouver used up half his time
beating up on the NDP because we did not make the motion votable.
We brought in motions that have been votable in the past. In
fact, we had some success in getting the government to support
some of our votable motions. For instance, we had motions on
banning bulk water exports and advancing the Tobin tax. These
have been helpful as a way of registering support but they do not
necessarily get the job done. We get the support on the motion
but the object of the exercise is to engage parliamentarians in
doing what is right for Canada.
Today is an opportunity for us to advance that and for us to
work together, not just opposition parties against government but
hopefully all parliamentarians who understand that we have a
crisis in terms of the low voter participation and in terms of
how regionalized our politics are. One of the things that is
very disappointing is that the Alliance Party says it supports
the notion of proportional representation but what did the
Alliance spokesperson do? He spent half his time beating up on
the NDP for things that have nothing to do with this issue.
I would like to ask a brief question of the member for
Winnipeg—Transcona. Frankly, it arises from a well known
Canadian political scientist by the name of Henry Milner who said
“It is one thing to lament polarization; it is another to insist
on maintaining the very institutions that exacerbate it”.
Could the hon. member elaborate on how the kind of polarization
we have seen in the last few years, that is surely tearing the
country apart and taking us away from the focus on moving
forward, could be cut down by a system of proportional
representation?
Mr. Bill Blaikie: Mr. Speaker, if we incorporated some
element of proportional representation into our system and
incorporated it in a way that would led to the regions being
better represented in all caucuses and led to less temptation on
the part of all political parties to play regional cards in their
politics, we would have a country much more inclined to national
unity in its politics rather than to national or inter-regional
hostility in its politics.
1255
I want to second the sentiment expressed by my leader with
respect to the member for North Vancouver. I know there is
sympathy within the Alliance Party ranks. I have talked to
individual members. I thought that this was the kind of debate
that they would relish in terms of democratic reform. It would
have been an opportunity for them to bring forward some of their
proposals. Instead, we get the kind of performance that we got
from the member for North Vancouver.
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I am very pleased to be able to follow my colleague, the
member for Winnipeg—Transcona, in discussing this very serious
proposal before parliament. I share the member's comments and
concerns about how members of the Liberal Party and the Alliance
caucus have treated this motion with so much disdain.
Who better than the member for Winnipeg—Transcona to
acknowledge the problem that that creates for the future of this
place and for democracy in this country. The member from
Transcona has served this place for almost 22 years. That kind
of service certainly gives him the right to speak in this place
with force. He ought to be listened to by all members.
One would think that after representing a constituency and
serving in this place for some 22 years, one would get stuck in
one's ways, get hung up on tradition and not be willing to look
at new innovative approaches. Well, that is not always the case.
In fact the opposite is the case for the member for
Winnipeg—Transcona who has continued over the course of those
years to respect the traditions of this place while at the same
time fighting for innovations and improvements.
The same goes for our colleague from Regina—Qu'Appelle, another
longstanding member of the House who has for many years
persistently raised the idea of electoral reform and proportional
representation in this place and everywhere possible across the
country. That should be a lesson and a model for members of the
government side, at least, who have members who have served this
place for great lengths and who should be reminded about how
important it is to get out of the rut and look at new innovation.
The same cannot be said for the Alliance. The most recent
political party on the scene seems to be the most resistant to
change and the most contrary to any kind of cross party
productive debate and dialogue on the part of parliamentarians.
I hope all members in the House will see the seriousness of this
motion and look at it in terms of what we can do to make a
difference in this place in addressing a very serious problem in
Canada today. Let us remember, this motion is about a problem we
have in Canadian society and is proposing a way to solve the
problem. It is not coming forward with a set prescription and a
fixed idea but is proposing that parliament look at the problem
and come up with solutions.
The problem is quite simple. It is something each and every one
of us deals with on a day to day basis, and that is the growing
sense from Canadians that they feel helpless and hopeless in this
political system and in this changing global economy. If we stop
and think about the apathy, the cynicism, the doubt and despair
that people feel about our political system and about some of us
as politicians, is that not enough of a reason to look at an
alternative to how we elect our members?
It is not just members of the New Democratic Party who are
proposing this. This is not about what is good for the NDP. This
is, as my colleague said, something that is about the future of
the country and the health of democracy.
I want to quote from a reputable organization, the Centre for
Research and Information on Canada, and refer to the January 18,
2001 issue of Opinion Canada where it is clearly stated
that:
There is a profound political malaise in Canada. It has
developed gradually. There have been various signs of it, which
when viewed in isolation, mean little. When taken together,
however, a disconcerting reality emerges.
1300
Surely this accurate description of the political malaise in
Canada ought to be taken seriously. Surely every issue and idea
that is put on the table to deal with the malaise ought to be
taken seriously and not just dismissed out of hand, as members of
the Liberal party are wont to do today.
We have heard from my colleagues about why the motion is before
us. We have heard from many members about why proportional
representation needs to be considered in the context of the
political malaise and of voter apathy. We have heard from
members that reform needs to be considered because of Canada's
Balkanization along regional lines. Surely that kind of
devastating and disastrous development ought to be redressed as
soon as possible.
There is another reason that we need to look at proportional
representation. I refer to a left-wing magazine, Canadian
Dimension, and to an article written by Denis Pilon in its
November-December 2000 issue. Mr. Pilon says that Canada needs
proportional representation to deal with Balkanization and the
fact that our electoral system has become inherently perverse in
terms of reflecting the will of voters. He also suggests that we
need to look at PR as a way to deal with the fact that our
electoral system has become dominated by spin and media. He goes
on to talk about the money driven politics of media and spin. He
refers to some of the long term structural changes in campaign
finance, voter contact and political communication that have led
to Canadian politics becoming more media dominated and more open
to spin and the tools of commercial advertising than ever before.
This is another reason we need to look at proportional
representation. It is another justification for opening up
discussion on this very important matter.
Denis Pilon in that article also suggested:
Clearly needed to adopt some form of PR. By doing so we will open up
more democratic space for new ideas, new representational
concerns and even new parties if that is what Canadians want. At
the same time, PR will contribute to a different kind of
democratic process. Election results will be more transparent
and less open to spin and horse race coverage. Majority
governments will likely result from a coalition of parties, and
media will have to comment on the deliberations and negotiations
with more than just sound bites. Money will still make itself
felt in the political process but it will have to work harder and
longer. PR will open more space to resist its machinations.
That is another very important reason for looking at a complete
revamping of our electoral system and for considering
proportional representation or a mix of our present first past
the post system and the PR model.
The malaise I talked about is serious. It is not just a result
of our electoral system and the way we elect members, although
the first past the post system is a significant part of the
growing cynicism and apathy among Canadians.
Just as important is the way our present election system works
against people. Many members have commented before and during
the debate about the serious disenfranchisement people feel and
have experienced in terms of the way our present elections are
run.
Many have commented on the damaging consequences of the
permanent voters list in terms of denying low income Canadians,
students and people who must move regularly, the ability to
exercise their democratic rights and freedoms.
1305
My colleague, the member for Palliser, has described the impact
of the permanent voters list on Canadians as rank discrimination.
I cannot agree with him more coming from a constituency where
some 40% of the people live below the low income cutoff line. If
time permitted I could describe in great detail how these people
felt about being left off the voters list, about the difficulty
they had getting on the voters list and about their sense of
being completely disenfranchised from the democratic process.
The double whammy comes from an electoral system that does not
reflect the majority will of Canadians. It comes from a system
that makes it very difficult for people to get on the voters list
and exercise their right to vote with as few barriers as
possible. Those things have to be addressed, and that is the
purpose behind the motion today.
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian (Brampton Centre, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, this is a very important issue, especially in a system
like ours.
The hon. member mentioned that she is supporting proportional
representation. Some countries in the world, especially east
European countries, have such a system. Some countries have a
mix of PR and first past the post.
If proportional representation is NDP policy, would it consider
adopting it in the two provinces that have NDP governments? It
could be tested at the provincial level before being tested at
the federal level. If PR is that party's policy, perhaps it
should consider adopting proportional representation in a
province where it has control. We could then see how the public
would react, and perhaps it could then be adopted federally.
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Speaker, that is an
interesting proposition on the part of the Liberal member.
We in the New Democratic Party prefer to show leadership at the
federal level. That is why we have the motion before the House
today.
It is the federal New Democratic Party's policy to pursue the
idea of proportional representation and to ensure that the
necessary changes to our electoral system are made so that people
would not feel disenfranchised and would believe the votes they
cast actually counted and made a difference. That is the kind of
leadership we would like the federal government to show.
What is wrong with this place taking the lead and providing
direction for the rest of the country? What is wrong with this
place having dialogue on the merits and possibilities of
electoral reform and proportional representation?
The question skirts the issue at hand, which is why Liberal
members today have been dismissive of the motion, a motion that
simply calls for a dialogue on the possibilities and merits of
proportional representation.
When we have a serious problem of political apathy and cynicism,
it surely must be taken up by the federal government. That is
where we must begin. That is what Canadians are counting on us
to do.
Mr. Bob Speller (Haldimand—Norfolk—Brant, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I listened to the hon. member as she talked about
leadership. I do not see this as a question of leadership.
I come from a rural area in southwestern Ontario. I am of the
view that my constituents elected me to represent them. I have a
lot of concern with the idea of proportional representation
because it means that the party will choose the people it wants
to run. I believe in the democratic principle that we are here
as the result of the work we do in our ridings and as a result of
every person in my riding having the ability to run for
parliament.
I do not think this is a question of leadership, as the hon.
member has tried to say. I think there are differing opinions in
the House and from across the country on that. We in rural areas
are scared to adopt such a system because of our small numbers.
There are a small number of people in agriculture, and we
understand how important the crisis in agriculture is. If we
adopt a system of proportional representation, as it exists in
certain other countries, I do not think will not have the same
representation.
1310
I would say to the hon. member that it is not only a question of
whether the government wants to show leadership. I suggest to
her that in many ways we have shown leadership in the House on
this issue, particularly with regard to electoral reform and
making changes to it.
I am not saying we could not do more. I would invite a debate
on that. However, I would say to the member that there are real
feelings of differences in the country, which have nothing to do
with the politics of it.
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Speaker, I certainly agree
with my colleague from the Liberal Party that there are different
views in the House, but that is the very essence of the motion
that is before the House today.
The motion recognizes that there is a looming crisis of
political legitimacy. It points to, what we all talked about and
heard about, the problems with our electoral system, with
parliamentary reform and with providing real ways for citizens to
participate and to believe that their actions make a difference.
If that is the case then surely the member can support the
motion.
To conclude, I refer the member to one comment in the January
issue of Opinion Canada which states:
Electoral reform has been described as “the plaintiff chorus of
the perennial losers.” However, a study commissioned by the
Privy Council Office and conducted by C.E.S. Franks, a noted
Professor of Political Science, pinpointed several aspects of the
political system for reform. Among them was the suggestion
that—
The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I have been as
generous as I think the Chair can be. There may be an
opportunity to conclude those remarks at another time.
Mr. John Bryden (Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have a very good and very personal
reason for being opposed in principle to the idea of proportional
representation.
That reason is simply this. If this parliament had proportional
representation I would not be here. You can hear the applause,
Mr. Speaker. It is true that some on all sides of the House, my
own side as well, and a number of special interest groups out
there in the community would be probably quite delighted if I
were not here, but in fact I am here and I am here because of the
first past the post constituency system that we have.
I would like to explain to the Canadians who may be watching a
feature of proportional representation that tends to be
overlooked in the debate, and that is that no matter what version
of proportional representation we have, one way or another the
leader, or the party leadership, gets to choose who sits in the
House.
The way it works is that if it is a percentage system, and
proportional representation is a percentage system, if the
particular party gets say 10% to 20% of the vote, then that party
is entitled to have a proportionate number of seats. What
happens in all systems of proportional representation is that in
one way or another the party leader or the party
leadership—sometimes it is the party leadership rather than just
the leader himself—gets to decide after the election who gets to
sit in the Chamber.
Well, Mr. Speaker, I can assure you in the very first place that
I would never have been even allowed by my party to even stand a
chance, because in 1993 when I first ran for election I was an
unknown in the Liberal Party. I had never had anything to do
with the Liberal Party. When I ran for my nomination in my
particular riding of Hamilton-Wentworth, as it was called at the
time, the party backroom people had decided on an entirely
different person. The only reason I won the nomination and
arrived here in this House was because I had been born and
brought up in the community and I was able to produce more
memberships and get more votes at the nomination meeting.
The reason I am here is because I had grassroots support, not
from the party, not from the party leader at the time, who was
indeed our present Prime Minister, but from the people in my
community. That is one of the great strengths of the first past
the post system.
It goes on, if I may say so, because I think it is very
important for people to understand that proportional
representation, rather than enhancing the opportunities of people
to be represented, or of MPs in this House, it actually
diminishes it because proportional representation, which gives
such power to the leader to choose who sits in the House, makes
it very impossible to have the kind of healthy dissent that
indeed we do have on this side of the House.
1315
Indeed, I recall very vividly when the election was on in 1993,
I ran a campaign that presented myself as a Liberal certainly,
and a Liberal I am still, but as a very independent minded
Liberal. In my own campaign brochure I announced that I was
against the red book plan for a billion dollars to be spent on
national day care. I thought that was the wrong thing to do.
I also said in my brochure that I was against the funding of
multicultural groups for organizational assistance. I am
certainly in support of multiculturalism in general, but I do not
think organizations need government largesse in order to exist. I
ran that in my brochure during the 1993 election.
There were people, Liberals in the riding, who were very unhappy
with the fact that I had won the nomination because I was not the
chosen person and they reported back to party headquarters that
they had this renegade during the election campaign. I got an
amusing call from a person right in the middle of the campaign,
who identified himself as somebody called Paul Martin and
apparently this Paul Martin, I did not know him from Adam, was
one of the architects of the red book.
On the other end of the phone he said “Well, this is Mr. Martin
calling”. You will find out, Mr. Speaker, that this was before
anyone was elected. This Mr. Martin was on the end of the line
and he said “Well, Mr. Bryden, I understand you have trouble
with our red book”. “Well, Mr. Martin”, I said, “I do. There
are a couple of things in it that I disagree with very strongly
and in fact would not go down in my riding really; they just do
not work”. He said “Do you not feel a little uncomfortable,
you know, saying these things during the election campaign?” I
replied “Mr. Martin, do not worry, when I get elected I will
come back up to Ottawa and I will persuade the Liberal Party not
to go ahead with these programs”. Because, of course, I felt
very strongly then, as I do now, that they were not the best
policy planks for the red book.
I do point out to you, Mr. Speaker, that the government never
did actually proceed to spend a billion dollars on day care and
there has been enormous efforts over the years to rein in
government spending without accountability. There is a lot of
progress to go into that department but I feel very confident
that as a backbench MP who was not afraid to speak out against my
party, not “against” my party, speak out independently of my
party, independently of the leadership, and have my own voice.
In proportionate representation, it is that kind of independence
of members of parliament that would not exist. First of all, Mr.
Speaker, you would not even get there because no leader would in
his right mind accept somebody who already at the very beginning
says that he does not agree, I do not agree, with all the aspects
of the basic platform of the party and yet I and so many in that
election of 1993 did come to this parliament.
I think it is because we represent our constituents, and it is
not proportionate representation, that we have been tremendously
successful in changing the whole attitude, the way this
parliament, at least on this side, operates because I would
observe and you, Mr. Speaker, are a person who has a long memory
of this House, you will appreciate that there have been more
votes against government policy on this side of the House than
has ever occurred in parliamentary history.
The member for Cambridge and I were talking together during the
debate and I was observing to him that I believe I had voted
against the government on major policy legislation four times.
The member for Cambridge, who sits just not very far from me, he
went a little crimson, a little embarrassment there, because he
had to admit that he had voted against the government even more
often.
We are still valued members of this party and we have never had
any hesitation to stand up in this House and speak our minds, no
matter what these people on the opposition say from time to time.
We have made changes when we have spoken our minds. I point out
that as recently as the opposition motion of last week, four
members of this side voted against the government.
1320
What happens is we consider very carefully and the reality, when
we talk about free votes in the House, the reality is that any
member on any side of the House does not have the time to examine
every issue in the kind of depth that we would all like to
examine every issue. In fact the reason why the ability to vote
independently, not freely, is important is when you have studied
an issue very carefully and you want to send a message to your
government, you do that by standing in the House, Mr. Speaker.
I have done that on four occasions. The one most important to
me, and very successful, was about five years ago the government
was introducing a piece of legislation pertaining to electronic
monitoring of people who were accused of sexual stalking. The
government's legislation proposed that this electronic bracelet
would be put on the individual based simply on an information to
the police authorities.
I felt very strongly that this was contrary to the fundamental
human rights of the accused. We are not supposed to be subject
to arbitrary arrest. Even if it was an electronic bracelet
operated by global positioning, if it was applied to an
individual involuntarily in my view it was a fundamental breach
of the rights of the accused and the presumption of innocence. I
failed to persuade my government in caucus and I failed to
persuade the minister of the day so I wound up standing alone in
this House. Mr. Speaker, you just try it; you try standing alone
in this House when everyone is supporting the legislation.
As it happened, I just happened to be the person who had studied
it in depth that I knew it was a fundamental issue. I am happy
to report that the government paid attention and in the end it
made the amendments that eliminated this offensive clause. Mr.
Speaker, you do have this opportunity in this current system, but
you have this opportunity because in the end you are not
nominated because of your party loyalty. You arrive in this
place in our system because of the will of your constituents.
In the end you are answerable to your constituents. In the end
the Prime Minister, no matter what he wants in this House, has to
always allow for the fact that everyone in this House, on this
side and that side are ultimately answerable to their
constituents. In the end if the government leadership steps out
of line, the members on this side along with the members on the
other side can get rid of the government like that, one vote of
confidence.
It has been said, I think quite correctly, that the Canadian
parliamentary system concentrates more power in the House of
Commons and in the leadership of the party, the governing party,
than any other parliament or democracy in the world. It also
provides for the instant dismissal of that government.
What the dynamic is over on this side, and I have to allow for
the fact that the opposition parties, particularly the NDP and
the Bloc Quebecois and the Canadian Alliance, but particularly
the NDP, have never had the experience of being on the government
side, so they have no idea of the dynamics that operate with the
members here.
I can assure you, Mr. Speaker, that the Prime Minister always
has to take careful account of what is happening in the opinion
that exists on this side. We always want to support the
leadership. We always want to give the leadership the benefit of
the doubt, and that is the correct thing to do, but it is still
at our discretion, not at the leadership's discretion.
That is one of the fundamental differences between the
constituency system and the proportional representation system,
because the proportional representation system gives the
discretion to the leader or the leadership. They get to say
whether you are nominated or not. They get to say whether you
sit in the next parliament. So if you do not mind your ps
and qs with your leadership, you stand a good chance of not
being named under proportional representation to the following
parliament.
We have a very strong system. It is not a system that does not
need reform. I would agree that there are things that need to be
done, but the one thing we do not need to do is convert to
proportional representation.
1325
I must also, just in passing, make the observation that the
opposition movers of this motion, in counting all the countries
that have proportional representation, conveniently ignore the
fact that the four countries that retain the first past the post
system are the most successful and oldest democracies in the
world. At least the top three are the oldest democracies in the
world. They are Canada, the United States and the United Kingdom
and, as we learned earlier, India as well.
I point out to you, Mr. Speaker, that in three of those cases
these are countries of enormous land mass. We cannot possibly
hold together in a democratic system spaces that go from the
Atlantic to the Pacific Ocean, that are as enormous as Canada and
India with its one billion population, and the United States,
which is the fourth largest country in the world. The three
largest countries in the world, three out of four, are the ones
that have the first past the post constituency system. There is
a reason for that. The reason for it is that it works.
If we had minority government after minority government, as
happens with proportional representation, I do not think we would
last more than two decades. We just could not last. We could
never tolerate what goes on in the parliaments of Israel or the
parliaments of Italy and many other countries in the world in
which small interest groups, which may have only 5% or 6% of the
proportion of MPs in parliament, actually control the debate. We
would then be held to ransom by small special interest groups. We
have to have a system, and we do have a system, that one way or
another creates as many majority governments as possible.
It is not our fault, it is not parliament's fault, and it is not
the system's fault that at this moment in time the opposition is
fractured into four parties. I would venture to predict that in
the next election that will change very dramatically, because the
natural balance in the Canadian and the British parliamentary
systems is to have two parties or three parties at the most.
We have a very unusual situation, but it is only a matter of the
Alliance and the Conservatives getting together plus the NDP
finding a life. I do not know where the Bloc are going to go. I
suspect we will see more Quebecers realizing that the Liberal
Party is a better future for the people of Quebec than the
separatist Bloc Quebecois, but I do not want to make this into a
partisan dissertation.
On the subject, though, of the power of MPs on this side to
make their presence felt, I would like to take advantage of the
fact that the motion is phrased widely and the member for
Regina—Qu'Appelle talked about the Senate. I would like to just
extend it a little bit, too, and talk about electronic voting,
because that is an issue that is very relevant right now.
I would like to go on record right at this moment for my
opposition colleagues to say that I am totally opposed to
electronic voting. I have been arguing against it in principle
for several years. Obviously I am not winning all of those
arguments on this side. I feel that electronic voting, the
danger of it, is as the member for Vancouver Island North
mentioned in his speech as a positive. He said “Look, what can
happen is that I can press a button and vote from my constituency
and I would not even have to be here”.
If we talk about maintaining the relevance of parliament and
maintaining the abilities of members of parliament to influence
the course of politics in this country, to influence the
government, we have to be here in this Chamber. The terrible
temptation of electronic voting is to do precisely what the
member for Vancouver Island North suggested. We could have
electronic voting only in this Chamber and require the presence
of everyone, but that has its flaws as well.
I will come back to the dynamics of what happens on this side as
government MPs. It becomes terribly important whether or not you
stand with your party or you do not stand with your party. Prior
to 1993 the tradition in this House among all the parties was
that if members did not agree with their parties, whether it was
in the opposition or on the government side, they would just
refuse to come into the Chamber. Some of us after 1993 took
issue with this, and I have to admit that I am very much an
original mover in this.
I said to my constituents and I say to them now “You voted for
me to come here to vote, not to hide”. So when a vote comes
that I do not like, I am going to rise here in my place against
the government.
I cannot help it. It is important for me to show how I vote.
1330
The trouble with electronic voting is it takes away that
privilege. I would be able to sit in my place and press a button
and no one would know. The beauty of that is that the government
would never have to experience the difficulty of feeling the
pressure of the backbench behind it not in agreement.
We had a bill last year in the previous parliament that dealt
with pension reform and the rights of same sex couples. I
believe about 16 members of the Liberal side stood against the
government on that. Mr. Speaker, that is healthy democracy. That
is important because it shows all Canadians everywhere in the
country that we are independent and that we do vote our
consciences. I regret that I cannot say the same for the other
side because too often they have not stood and voted against
their own party lines.
Rarely, Mr. Speaker, rarely do we ever see the NDP, the
Conservatives or the Bloc Quebecois stand against their own
party's position. Never, Mr. Speaker. Occasionally with private
member's bills but never with their opposition to government
bills.
In conclusion, I do not know why it is that we cannot as
parliamentarians realize that this country is 134 years old, with
a democratic system that has stood the test of time and is one of
the oldest in the world. It is one of the best in the world and
I do not think it needs the kind of fundamental change that this
motion is talking about.
Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, the member made a minor factual error when he cited
the number of countries of large geographical size in the world
that have the first past the post system. He mentioned two of
the top three. Russia and China are both larger than the United
States. Therefore, strictly speaking, it is two of the top four.
Leaving that aside, he also made the observation that it is
difficult to maintain the unity of a continent sized country,
such as Canada or the United States, without a first past the
post system. I would dispute that and then invite his comments
upon the observation.
Australia, where I lived for several years, does not have a
first past the post system. It has a single transferable ballot
at the level of the house of representatives, its equivalent to
our House of Commons. The Australian system has not created any
form of disunity.
At the level of its senate, Australia has a system in which each
of its six states has 12 senators. The senators are elected
through a form of multiple voting in which each elector gets to
choose 12 candidates from a list which can have, depending upon
the state, as many as 100 or more candidates for office.
Some problems can be pointed out in the Australian system, which
I will return to later in the debate, but it causes no national
unity problem.
The first past the post system has had splendid success in other
countries. However, we should consider our unity problems, the
current ones, as well as the more spectacular conflicts of the
late 1970s and the early 1980s when there were only two Liberal
members west of the Ontario-Manitoba boundary and only two
Conservative members between 1979 and 1980 in Quebec. We see
therefore that the first past the post system has served our
national unity very poorly indeed.
The United States is one of the most spectacular failures of
national unity in the world. Its first past the post system
ensured that the democrats would dominate the south prior to the
civil war and that a variety of parties, first the whigs and then
the republicans, would dominate the north. That was one of the
primary reasons for the tremendous split in the U.S. congress,
and particularly in its senate, which was one of the fundamental
reasons for its civil war.
In looking at the spectacular record of failure, would the
member be willing to consider the possibility that there are
alternatives that perhaps create a superior sense of national
unity in large, ethnically diverse and geographically dispersed
countries such as Canada, Australia or the United States?
Mr. John Bryden: Mr. Speaker, I do not know that
Australia is really a fair comparison in any event because it is
a much smaller country than Canada. It is in isolation and it is
not anywhere near as ethnically diverse as Canada.
1335
Very few countries in the world are founded on two great
cultural and linguistic roots, as is Canada. I point out in
Canadian history that up until the creation of Canada, the French
and British cultures had been at one another's throats since
1066. The traditional enemies in Europe are the English and the
French.
Yet through our democratic system, and we were one of the very
first democracies, Mr. Speaker, who brought in the parliamentary
system as you see it, we are one of the first just after the
United States and after Britain. We have managed to keep this
country united, and I just do not understand where the member is
coming from, because we have held together one of the largest
land masses in the world and one of the two most distinct
populations in the world, the French and the British. That is an
incredible success.
I am glad he raised the point, though, because I think one of
the reasons why it is successful is because everyone in this
country, including my colleagues from the Bloc Quebecois,
including my colleagues from Quebec or Nova Scotia or Acadia or
New Brunswick, do have the option of representing their regions.
That is the very gift and genius of this country. It would be
absolutely dreadful if some leader came along and said to the
Bloc Quebecois, or because he was a Bloc Quebecois leader, said
“Well, you have to have a representative in Vancouver”. That
would be crazy.
No, Mr. Speaker, we are on the right track with this. I
congratulate Australia on its limited success, but it is not
better than what we are doing here in Canada.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I have a couple of comments. The hon. member said that
never has a member of the NDP or the Conservative Party voted
against the party stand. If we look at history that is not the
case.
In 1980 I was the constitutional critic for the party. When Mr.
Trudeau tried to unilaterally repatriate the constitution, I
resigned as critic. There were four of us who voted against the
stand of the caucus at the time. There are many cases throughout
history where that has happened, and in the Conservative Party as
well.
I wanted to ask the member about majority governments. He said
one reason he wants the status quo is that he likes to have
majority governments. I could also make the assertion that many
of Canada's minority governments have been very productive.
Lester Pearson was never the leader of a majority government. He
became prime minister in 1963 with a minority. He won again in
1965 with a minority and he stayed on as a minority prime
minister until he retired in 1968. That was probably one of the
best periods in Canada's history in terms of good progressive
government that reflected the country as a whole.
The Trudeau government between 1972 and 1974 was also a minority
government. The most productive of the parliaments that Mr.
Trudeau led was probably 1972 to 1974. One reason was that there
had to be some give and take and consensus with the opposition
parties to reflect the country as a whole better than a majority
government often does when it is bulked up in certain regions.
The last thing I wanted to ask the member about was the Senate.
It is an institution that is, by definition, not democratic. What
will we do about the Senate? Only about 5% of Canadians who have
been polled support the existing Senate.
Mr. John Bryden: Mr. Speaker, all I can say is that I
only go back to 1993, not to 1980. I can assure the member
opposite since 1993 I have not seen any. I do not think I can
remember a single instance of NDP members voting against their
own party on a policy issue in the House of Commons. I have not
seen much action in that direction with the Conservatives,
either.
As to the question of minority versus majority governments in
Canada, I think the key word with our system is not a question of
whether the government is a minority or majority; it is
decisiveness. What our system provides for is a decisive
government rather than indecisive government.
We do not have a system where we would have small parties of
five or six that come up and hold the balance of power. So when
we have a minority government, it is still a decisive government
in our system. In the proportional representation system, you
could have the potential for a lot of minority parties and
consequently when you have minority governments, they would be
indecisive governments.
Finally, the Senate: I have had to change my mind about the
Senate quite a bit because I have watched what has happened in
Ontario. In Ontario there is no Senate obviously at the
provincial level. The Ontario government last year sat only 40
days of the year. We will sit 135 days this year and we will
discuss legislation back and forth.
What happens in Ontario is the Ontario government rockets
legislation through that is poorly conceived and it is suddenly
passed into law. Where I see the advantage of the Senate is the
Senate really is a potential check.
1340
When this House, be it a private member's bill or a public bill,
if it goes through the House too fast, and it is possible for us
all to get onside and send it through too fast, is that the
Senate is an important check, and the evidence of that is what is
happening in Ontario now where laws are being passed that really
need a second thought.
Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I was very impressed with the hon. member opposite. I
have been impressed with him before because he is a very deep
student of democracy and democratic behaviour.
I was struck by three words he kept repeating about halfway
through his speech, “in the end”. I wondered when he was going
to come to the end. He did come to the end of his speech, but he
also suggested that, in the end, he and every elected member here
is responsible to their constituents. I could not agree with him
more.
He actually said something sensible about the other place just a
moment ago. That is good. If he would now only add that we will
elect those people as well, he would really be in the good books.
There is a question I want to ask the hon. member. I believe he
was elected on the promise that the Government of Canada and
parliament would appoint an ethics counsellor who would report to
the House and to parliament.
I noticed when I looked at Hansard and at the voting
record of the hon. member that he voted nay on that issue. Whom
was he representing: himself, his constituents, or the Prime
Minister?
Mr. John Bryden: Mr. Speaker, I do wish the member had
taken the time to look at my speech as well as my voting record,
because he would have seen that I made the argument that indeed
we kept that red book promise because that clause in the red book
only referred to public officials and lobbyists. It did not
refer to members of parliament, so there was no reason. I regret
to say that I did not feel that those members on this side of the
House who felt that they had to vote against the government on
that issue were correct. I thought they were incorrect. The
promise was fulfilled.
Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I would like to take the opportunity to read the motion
once more.
That this House strike a special all-party committee to examine
the merits of various models of proportional representation and
other electoral reforms, with a view to recommending reforms that
would combat the increasing regionalization of Canadian politics,
and the declining turnout of Canadians in federal elections.
As I address this question I will talk about not only
proportional representation but electoral reforms of other sorts
as well, and some of the issues that go along with those
considerations.
I will start by making the objection that the system in Canada
really is broken at this point. We saw that in 1997 a 38% vote
of the Canadian people gave the Liberal Party a majority
government. In 1993 a 41% vote gave the Liberals 60% of the
seats in this place, whereas the Tories got 16% of the vote and
less than 1% of the seats.
In Ontario 2.3 million votes in the 2000 election gave the
Liberals 100 seats. By contrast, one million votes gave my
party, the Alliance, two seats, one of which I hold. While I am
honoured at the thought that I represent 500,000 Ontarians, I
think it is an incorrect assumption to look at the results and
think it is an acceptable system when 98% of the seats go to a
party that had only about half the vote.
This is about democracy. As we talk about democracy and
democratic reform we must think as well about other related
issues of importance which tie in with the question of electoral
reform.
I want to run through some of these by way of suggesting that we
have a problem that goes far beyond the mere problem of an
inadequate electoral system. We have a serious problem, as my
hon. colleague from the New Democrats pointed out, with the
Senate. He proposes abolishing the Senate. That is certainly an
alternative.
1345
My own party has proposed a triple E model for the Senate. We
have suggested an elected Senate as opposed to an appointed
Senate and a Senate that is equal in representation, at least
more equitable in representation and a great deal fairer than
what we have right now.
I cite as examples of countries with pure triple E senate
models, Australia and the United States. Switzerland has
something close to a pure model. Some of the smallest cantons
are referred to as half cantons and get half representation, but
otherwise there is full equality. It provides for some kind of
representation for those more peripheral areas of the country and
prevents the kind of inner Canada, outer Canada phenomenon that
we see here occurring there.
At the very least one would think that there would be some form
of regional equity which would ensure that British Columbia, for
example, would have a substantially larger number of senators
than New Brunswick. This would make sense given that British
Columbia has a much larger population.
It is in the spirit of our original plans for the Senate, going
back to 1867, that there should be some form of regional equity.
In 1867 there was equal representation for the maritime region,
which consisted of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, and for Ontario
and Quebec. Those were the three regions of Canada at that time.
That was a good system and we favour some kind of return to it.
Reforms should also take place for the rules that govern this
place. This House was intended to be a legislature in a country
which was, while nominally a monarchy, a republic in the
Aristotelian sense of the term; that is, a country which had an
equal balance of the democratic, oligarchic or aristocratic and
monarchical elements in its constitution.
In practise, what has happened is that the Prime Minister has
become our real monarch and the House sits, not as a legislature,
but as an electoral college in perpetual session and required
periodically, frequently in fact, to give its assent once more to
the king continuing to sit in his place reigning over us all.
This form of elected dictatorship is completely unsuitable and
needs to be reformed. There are many reforms that could take
place, but I will simply mention one or two.
First, secret ballots for the election of committee chairs just
as secret ballots are used for the election of the Speaker.
Second, more free votes, and a simple change to the rules of the
House would accomplish this goal. Many other proposals have been
made by a number of scholars, commissions and committees.
Reforms to the Election Act would also make a substantial
difference. I cite, as an example of us going in the wrong
direction, clause 11 of the government's proposed act to amend
the Canada Elections Act, which has the effect of depriving small
parties of access to the voters list. This is a very
undemocratic move in the wrong direction and something that needs
to be stopped in order to ensure that we continue to be
democratic in our elections, elections that bring people here,
even if we cannot function democratically in how we act within
this place.
I note as well that clause 17 of that proposed act would deprive
independents and small parties of access to free broadcast time
in order to spread their message and educate the public, which
after all is the function that these parties see for themselves,
small parties like the Green Party, the Canadian Action Party and
so on, as well as many independents. Many of these parties and
independents who realize they will not be elected, see the
election as an opportunity to spread what they believe to be
important truths. It is also the only time when they have the
public eye and they deserve that.
Recall is another measure that could accomplish a great deal. If
members of a constituency had the right to petition for their
members to be forced into a byelection situation, a number of
very undemocratic and unpopular measures could never have made it
through the House. The GST, the Meech Lake accord and many other
measures would not have been approved. Many members would have
considered very carefully whether they could continue to support
the kind of action that occurred the other day when the
government voted against its own 1993 red book promise.
Electronic voting could take place. Citizen initiated
referendum is another possibility that would do substantial
things to change the way in which Canada operates as a democracy.
I turn now to the question of proportional representation and to
the question of what type of proportional representation is most
appropriate.
I take it from the language of the motion that the New
Democratic sponsor of it feels that democratic reforms to the
electoral system, other than actual changes to the manner in
which individual members are chosen, is something the New
Democratic Party would support.
1350
Fixed election dates as something that would perhaps be
beneficial and that they would perhaps support as we do on this
side of the House. That would prevent the sort of nonsense that
goes on where the Prime Minister consults the polls and tries to
arrange to hold an election when the governing party is in fact
at the top of the polls. This has been unconstitutional in the
United States for two centuries and something that other
countries, which have a system similar to our own such as
Australia, have tried to restrict by having shorter periods
between elections.
I note that there are several different proportional
representation models and in the remaining time I will go through
them very quickly. Our party does not favour any particular
model. We think that the first past the post system is broken
and is probably not acceptable to most Canadians. We also think
the decision on whether the system should be replaced is one that
should be made by the Canadian people by means of a referendum.
We have turned to our friends in New Zealand and would like to
follow its model. They held a referendum on whether in fact they
should abandon their first past the post system. The people
advised them that they wanted change. Then a commission
travelled across the country, consulted widely, proposed several
models, and the people selected the multi-member proportional
system which is not the only system that could have been chosen.
It is the one that appears to have made New Zealanders happy.
I am not sure that model would work here. I am not sure it is
my business to say it is the model that would work. I cite as
another possible example the pure list system. I am not a
particular fan of that system but it is used in Israel and has
been used in Italy. In addition to New Zealand a somewhat
different version of the mixed member proportional system has
been used in Germany. In Australia, which is my former home, I
observed that there are several different systems at work at
different levels of that country's government.
The house of representatives, as I mentioned when questioning
another member earlier, uses a single member system but a
transferable ballot so that a more consensual process goes on in
selecting a member in an individual district. Its senate uses a
12 member system. Each state chooses its members at large and
each voter can choose their 12 top choices from a list.
Tasmania uses yet another system for its house. It has a system
whereby there are districts with five or six members. The
Australian capital territory has selected yet another system
which I think would not be appropriate for Canada but reflects
the fact the particular jurisdiction has an evenly spread highly
homogeneous population. They had the danger of perpetually
electing all members of one party over and over, and so they had
to choose some other method to assure that there would be some
form of genuine democracy, opposition and debate within their own
legislature. This has been very successfully accomplished there.
I therefore put before the House the suggestion that what ought
to happen in this country is that there should be a vigorous
debate as our friends in the New Democratic Party are suggesting
and that in the end the people be the ones to make the decision
on what is in fact the best approach.
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian (Brampton Centre, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I believe the member supports the motion introduced by
the NDP. He addressed the question of regional issues in this
Confederation, but I am sure he knows that the headquarters of
the Alliance Party is in Alberta.
How could he claim the Alliance Party is a national party when
its headquarters are in Alberta? Would this be supporting
separatist concepts in the west, or is he talking about moving
the national headquarters of the Alliance Party from Alberta to
where it belongs in Ottawa?
Mr. Scott Reid: Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for his
question. I am not exactly sure how the hon. gentleman feels
that having one's headquarters in Calgary constitutes support for
western separatism.
If that were the case, surely when the federal government made
the decision in the 1970s to cast its own votes as a partial
shareholder in Sun Life, in favour of Sun Life keeping its
headquarters in Montreal, that was in fact hidden support for
separatists in Quebec. I cannot give any other interpretation to
that bizarre assertion.
1355
Having widespread representation for members of all parties in
all parts of the country, unless the party is completely
unacceptable to voters, is something that is profitable. Almost
any system other than the current one does a better job at that.
Again I look at the example of Ontario. We know that in 1998
Ontarians did not vote 97% in favour of the Liberal Party but in
fact 100 of 103 members came from Ontario. That block then
dominated the House. Under the leadership of the Prime Minister
it had 100% control of all legislation that came out here. There
is spectacular insensitivity to the regional concerns of many
regions, the west being one.
We see perpetual lack of concern about the interests of Quebec,
which is the reason Quebec separatism over 30 years of almost
perpetual Liberal administration has risen from being a
fractional concern to being a movement that almost split apart
the country under the watch of the Prime Minister. We see
Premier Hamm of Nova Scotia being essentially told to hit the
road when he comes forward with very intelligent proposals for
equalization changes.
I just cannot see how anything the hon. member has said adds to
the debate. It is just typical of the kind of arrogance we see
from some members of the Ontario caucus of the government. That
is most disappointing.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member who has just spoken, my colleague from
Windsor—St. Clair and another member of the Reform Party
represent almost half of the voters in the province of Ontario
and 100 Liberals represent the other half, which shows the great
distortion in our electoral system.
I will make a couple of other comments and ask for a response
from the member from Ontario. In terms of referenda, I think we
should use them very sparingly in our political system. My party
and I would only use them for great issues of the day such as a
constitutional issue and maybe one or two other exceptions. I
think we could have too many referenda.
I believe the power of the Prime Minister's Office is much too
strong, with the power to appoint by himself or herself all the
judges, the head of the military or the RCMP and other major
appointments. Many of these should be vetted by a parliamentary
committee that is relevant to the issue being discussed. I also
believe that we should have fixed election dates constitutionally
to take away that power from the premiers and the Prime Minister
both at the federal and the provincial level.
I think we should have fewer confidence votes in the House of
Commons and stronger parliamentary committees with more
independence to set their own legislative timetable.
These are some of the other reforms that should go along with
the idea of looking at proportional representation and getting
rid of the unelected Senate.
Mr. Scott Reid: Mr. Speaker, I agree with just about
everything that the hon. member has said. I personally think
there should be a somewhat broader scope for referenda,
particularly for citizen initiated referenda.
He would probably agree with me that the system used in
Switzerland and Australia, whereby the people have to approve any
form of constitutional amendment, has been profitable in those
countries and might likewise be profitable here.
I think we disagree a little over the Senate, but I think hearts
are in the right place in his party when they say that there
really needs to be change to that dysfunctional institution.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
[English]
FOREIGN AFFAIRS
Ms. Colleen Beaumier (Brampton West—Mississauga, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, the foreign affairs committee unanimously called for
the de-linking of sanctions against Iraq. Canada is one of only
four countries continuing to insist that sanctions remain intact.
Five thousand young children die each month in Iraq as a result
of the sanctions. Health experts report that the southern part
of Iraq has one of the highest rates of childhood leukemia in the
world due to the effects of spent uranium.
High profile UN workers have resigned over these sanctions. We
collectively condemn the actions of Saddam Hussein. However we
must realistically acknowledge that our sanctions are hurting the
children of Iraq, not the military.
The U.S. dropped yet another bomb last week. This time in a
populated area. I believe it is time for us to stand up and be
counted. Mr. Bush had been in power for 28 days when he bombed
civilians. Perhaps a thorough review of his policy is in order
before more bombs are dropped.
I also encourage our minister to look for creative ways to help
solve the serious crisis in Iraq.
* * *
ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE
Mr. Larry Spencer (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, it is a privilege and an honour to
serve as the member of parliament for Regina—Lumsden—Lake
Centre.
There is a wonderful spirit of co-operation and community in my
constituency. This extends to community based policing. The
RCMP knows the dangers of losing touch with the citizens in the
communities in which it serves. RCMP F Division headquarters and
depot training academy are in my constituency. It is there that
every RCMP recruit in the country is trained.
1400
With increasing costs for policing, the Canadian public wants a
police service that is accountable, efficient and effective. In
an effort to meet public expectations, the RCMP has developed
community based policing. I am proud of the effort it has made
since the 1980s to get back into the communities in which it
serves.
I trust the government shares the pride all Canadians feel for
the RCMP. I believe, however, that it is absurd that we would
spend nearly half a billion dollars on registering guns and
manufacturing criminals when funds are so badly needed by those
responsible for arresting criminals and protecting law-abiding
citizens.
* * *
PAUL DEMPSEY
Mr. Pat O'Brien (London—Fanshawe, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
today I wish to pay tribute to Ireland's ambassador to Canada,
His Excellency Paul Dempsey, and his wife Janet. This wonderful
couple have been outstanding representatives of the Republic of
Ireland in Canada for over five years.
Ambassador Dempsey has travelled extensively in Canada and has
visited every region of our country. He has been an enthusiastic
supporter of many initiatives important to Canadians of Irish
ancestry throughout Canada.
The Dempseys have encouraged and successfully co-ordinated the
visits to Canada of many of Ireland's leading public figures,
including President Mary McAleese.
On behalf of my colleagues in the Canada-Ireland
Interparliamentary Friendship Group, may I thank Ambassador and
Mrs. Dempsey for their great friendship to and support of our
group here in Ottawa. May Paul and Jan enjoy a long and happy
retirement.
I invite all parliamentarians and you, Mr. Speaker, to say
farewell to Ambassador Dempsey today between 4 p.m. and 6 p.m. in
Room 238-S, the Commonwealth Room, in Centre Block.
* * *
CREDIT VALLEY HOSPITAL
Mr. Steve Mahoney (Mississauga West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I extend congratulations to the Credit Valley Hospital in the
city of Mississauga on joining the energy innovators initiative
of Natural Resources Canada.
The energy innovators initiative is set up to support Canadian
companies and institutions in adopting environmentally friendly
practices, procedures and technologies. As one of 850 energy
innovators, Credit Valley Hospital has made a long term
commitment to use energy efficiently to reduce costs and slow the
growth of Canada's greenhouse gas emissions.
The leadership shown by energy innovators such as the Credit
Valley Hospital will assist Canada in meeting its environmental
objective of reducing atmospheric emissions that contribute to
climate change.
Once again I congratulate the Credit Valley Hospital for its
voluntary commitment to energy efficiency and for doing its share
in assisting Canada with its goals toward the ongoing protection
of our environment.
* * *
CANADIAN WOMEN IN COMMUNICATIONS
Ms. Sarmite Bulte (Parkdale—High Park, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, yesterday evening Canadian Women in Communications
celebrated its 10th anniversary at its annual awards dinner held
in Ottawa.
Canadian Women in Communications is a national, bilingual, not
for profit organization supporting the progress and impact of
women in the communications and telecommunications industries. It
has almost 1,500 members across the country.
I take this opportunity to congratulate three outstanding
individuals who were honoured last evening. The Canadian Women
in Communications woman of the year is Denise Donlon, president
of Sony Music of Canada. The award for mentor of the year was
awarded to Michael McCabe, president and CEO of the Canadian
Association of Broadcasters, who helped create the organization
that grew into this communications organization. The trailblazer
of the year award went to Michèle Fortin, CBC's vice-president of
French television services.
I congratulate these individuals and Canadian Women in
Communications for their superb work in advancing the role of
women in the communications industry. This industry and the
country benefit from their great efforts.
* * *
EDUARDO SEBRANGO RODRIGUEZ
Mr. John Reynolds (West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I rise to petition the Minister of
Citizenship and Immigration and seek her intercession in
rectifying an oversight which has brought an unintentional
injustice to an individual who requires expedited Canadian
citizenship in order for him to represent Canada on the Canadian
soccer team competing in the 2002 World Cup.
Eduardo Sebrango Rodriguez recently lost his appeal for
expedited Canadian citizenship due to his inability and modesty
to articulate to a federal court judge that he is a world class
soccer player who has an opportunity to represent our country in
the World Cup in 2002. By the judge's own explanation, she said
had he raised this aspect for consideration his citizenship might
have been expedited.
1405
It would be a shame to preclude this talented individual from
having all relevant information and facts taken into
consideration by the court before a final decision is rendered.
I submit to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration that
Eduardo Sebrango Rodriguez did not get a complete hearing of his
complete set of circumstances warranting expedited citizenship.
We ask for her help in getting this done.
* * *
[Translation]
WATER CONTAMINATION
Mr. Ghislain Fournier (Manicouagan, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in 1993,
the Department of Transport learned that the product it was using
to de-ice the runways at the Sept-Îles airport could contaminate
the drinking water in the Plages sector and pose a threat to the
public. Despite that, it continued to use it for another three
years.
Only in 1998 did the Minister of Transport recognize his
culpability, and since then no long term solution has been
implemented. Three years later, parents are still washing babies
in bottled water according to the experts' directives.
In the throne speech, the federal government announced its
intention to increase standards on the quality of drinking water.
The residents of the Plages sector of Sept-Îles have developed a
thirst for water and justice. The federal government has a duty
to follow its own guidelines and apply a permanent solution
immediately to this disaster it has itself caused.
* * *
[English]
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Ovid Jackson (Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, this is the first time I have risen in the House since
the last election. I thank the people of my riding of
Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound for electing me for a third time. I also
take the opportunity to congratulate you, Mr. Speaker, on your
election to the chair.
Part of my job is to walk around in my community and listen to
the concerns of my community. What I am hearing from my farmers,
who by the way have provided cheap, affordable and healthy
foodstuff for us over the years, is that there are some hardships
in one commodity group in particular, that of grains and
oilseeds.
This group says that it requires some help right now. My job in
the House is to say to the government and all my colleagues that
we should make sure that this commodity group gets some help
immediately for the short term and that in the longer term it is
protected from some of the tariff protections of other countries.
* * *
SOPHIE ZEBER
Ms. Judy Sgro (York West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise
today to congratulate a very special constituent and friend, Mrs.
Sophie Zeber, on the occasion of her 80th birthday. Sophie has
been living in my riding for over 30 years and is an active and
influential member of our community.
She has been a voice for many people of different backgrounds
who may not have had the language skills necessary to make their
concerns heard. She is a passionate advocate for seniors in the
community and her efforts are directed at enriching the quality
of life for all seniors.
Sophie works tirelessly. She organizes fitness classes. She
constantly represents her community. She is a woman of
unbelievable energy and continues to fight for all of us and for
our community. I wish Sophie a happy 80th birthday.
* * *
VETERANS
Mr. Roy Bailey (Souris—Moose Mountain, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, George Harry Mullin and John Robert
Osborn are Victoria Cross recipients and their names are
legendary in my constituency.
Today I want to inform the House of another hero. Roy Sweet is
a World War II vet in his 80s who wanted to preserve the memory
of these Victoria Cross heroes. They were honoured years ago
with plaques placed on a corner of the land owned by their
families, but over the years the families moved away and the
plaques became overgrown with weeds and were seldom accessible to
the public.
Mr. Sweet and members of the local legion wanted to move the
plaques, one to a local cemetery in Wapella and the other to the
cenotaph in Moosomin. They ran into numerous obstacles and it
seemed the plaques would languish in obscurity in the seldom
visited farm fields, but thanks to the intervention of many, the
plaques were eventually moved to their new locations and are
accessible to the public all year round.
I ask the House to join me in saluting veteran Roy Sweet for his
thoughtfulness in preserving the memories of two of Canada's
Victoria Cross recipients.
* * *
LORIE KANE
Mr. Shawn Murphy (Hillsborough, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise in the House today to recognize and salute the
accomplishments of a resident of the constituency of
Hillsborough, Canada's premier female golfer, Lorie Kane.
During the past 12 months Lorie has been on a real hot streak on
the ladies professional golf tour. In August of last year she
won the Michelob Light Classic, played in St. Louis, Missouri.
In September of last year she won the New Albony Classic, played
in New Albony. In October of last year she won the Mizuno
Classic, played in the country of Japan. Two weeks ago she won
the TACA-Fugi Tournament, played in Hawaii.
1410
In the year 2000 her earnings exceeded $800,000, placing her
fifth on the LPGA money earnings list. This year she has earned
in excess of $250,000, placing her second on the LPGA money
earnings list. I should point out to you, Mr. Speaker, and to
the Minister of Finance that we are talking about American
dollars here. Recently she received the honour of being named
Canada's Female Athlete of the Year for the year 2000.
* * *
EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, today in Winnipeg closing arguments are being heard on
the first charter challenge that the government's Employment
Insurance Act discriminates against women and part time workers.
Women make up 70% of the part time workforce and still carry
most of the responsibility for raising children, making it
difficult to qualify for benefits under an hours based system.
Last July a federal government survey indicated an 8% gender gap
that favours men over women in being eligible for benefits.
Kelly Lesiuk, a part time nurse, was unable to claim maternity
benefits in 1998 because she fell 33 hours short of qualifying.
Problems with her pregnancy had forced her to stop work at five
months. To make ends meet she had to return to work six weeks
after undergoing a Cesarean section and the family had to deplete
its savings and borrow money.
Over 60 other similar cases are waiting to be heard. It is
unfortunate that Canadian women and part time workers must resort
to lawsuits in order to receive fair treatment. Why will the
federal government not act to change this discriminatory
legislation to reflect the realities of the present labour force?
* * *
[Translation]
HEATING COST REBATES
Mr. Michel Guimond
(Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, many of my constituents have expressed their disapproval
of the federal heating cost rebate program.
I would like to read part of a letter from Lise Arsenault of
Beauport, who summarizes very well the dissatisfaction this
program causes:
When this promise was fulfilled, I obviously thought that the
government had finally begun to understand us middle income
earners and taxpayers.
I own an oil heated home. I am married
and the mother of two. My husband and I have worked from the age
of 17 for an average income. So we pay, as our kids put it
“full taxes” and have never benefited from an assistance
program.
I would like it if one day you could help the right
people. This year, the price of heating oil was double that of
last year, and you provided help, to a large extent, to those who
do not even use this type of heating.
The government explains its failure by its haste in acting. The
Bloc Quebecois considers it vital to quickly implement specific
measures to help those affected by the rise in the cost of
heating oil.
* * *
[English]
MASTERWORKS
Ms. Carolyn Bennett (St. Paul's, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
rise today to draw attention to the wonderful MasterWorks program
and its founding organization, the AV Preservation Trust.
The MasterWorks program recognizes 12 culturally significant
classics each year, drawn from the archives of Canadian film,
radio, television, video and sound recording industries, and
provides the necessary funding to underwrite the preservation and
restoration costs of each master work.
This year's selections in radio are: The 1927 Jubilee
Broadcast, L'heure provinciale, and Glenn Gould's
Solitude Trilogy.
This year's film winners are: La vraie nature de
Bernadette by Gilles Carle; The Loon's Necklace by
Crawley Films; and The Grey Fox by the late Philip Borsos,
with the wonderful Jackie Burroughs and produced by my husband,
Peter O'Brien.
Sound recording selections were awarded to Robert Charlebois,
Raoul Jobin and Gordon Lightfoot, and in television and video
Cré-Basile! Télé-Métropole and Femme d'aujourd'hui
were recognized.
I congratulate everyone who received an award. I encourage my
colleagues to support the endeavours of the MasterWorks
preservation program for the benefit and enjoyment of future
generations.
* * *
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, I now
have in my possession a document that details in unprecedented
terms the horrible conditions to which our soldiers are being
subjected in Bosnia. It is a letter to the Minister of National
Defence, dated February 8, from the Dominion President of the
Royal Canadian Legion, Mr. Barclay.
Mr. Barclay writes of the conditions witnessed by a concerned
legion funded group that travelled to Bosnia. The shocking
details of that report compelled Mr. Barclay to contact the
minister directly.
The report details in critical terms the “poor state of morale,
tattered and unsightly clothing and equipment deficiencies that
were experienced”. On the issue of clothing alone, the observer
reported “worn, threadbare, stained and patched combat clothing,
and a lack of uniformity among Canadian soldiers”.
The Geneva convention requires us to treat enemy forces better
than we appear to be treating our own soldiers. This is totally
unacceptable. How can the minister possibly account for these
disgraceful standards?
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
1415
[English]
THE ECONOMY
Mr. Stockwell Day (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, on Friday the Deputy Prime Minister
admitted after weeks of denial that we are into an economic
downturn. Yesterday the finance minister admitted after some
denial that we need a financial update and that he will be
bringing one in. I am encouraged by that because overcoming
denial is the first step on the road to recovery.
Because the Minister of Finance asked for our suggestions, in
his mini budget he said that he would lower some marginal rates
but would not increase either personal exemptions or spousal
exemptions. Will he do that to take thousands of low income
workers off from paying any federal income tax at all?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member knows full well that we are raising the
threshold. It was this government that brought in indexation
which makes sure that it happens automatically each and every
year.
I would simply ask a question of the hon. member. If the hon.
member wants to cut taxes, which I understand is his point of
view, will he also at the same time have to cut spending in order
to pay for those tax cuts? If he is to cut spending, does he
think that cutting government spending will add stimulus to the
economy?
Mr. Stockwell Day (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, we are asking the questions here.
That is why we need to see that financial update. Since he will
not do anything—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. We will hear the question.
The hon. Leader of the Opposition is asking a question.
Mr. Stockwell Day: Mr. Speaker, since he will not
indicate that he will help low income workers, will the minister
take a look at the corporate tax rates because our corporate
taxes, our business taxes, are higher than the average of
countries with which we trade at the OECD?
Will he accelerate his indicated reduction of those taxes, the
28% to 21% reduction, to reflect his confidence in the economy?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I might as well ask the questions as well as answer
them. Somebody had better ask decent questions in the House.
The hon. member ought to know that as a result of our tax cuts
our corporate taxes will be five percentage points lower than
those in the United States. Our capital gains taxes are now
lower than those in the United States. Our treatment of stock
options is now lower and more generous than that in the United
States. As a result we have the largest fiscal stimulus ever
brought in by a Canadian government.
Mr. Stockwell Day (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the minister well knows that the
ratio of taxes vis-à-vis the GDP is 43% in Canada and 31% in the
United States. He should keep that in mind.
[Translation]
I thought the Minister of Finance was being sincere yesterday in
asking for our suggestions. Today, I do not know. Can he at
least assure workers that his economic statement will announce a
cut in EI contributions from $2.25 to $2?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, since
we became the government, we have reduced contributions to
employment insurance by over $6 million. Again in November, we
made another 15 cent cut.
We have already indicated our intention to lower taxes and
contributions and to encourage the Canadian economy. That is
why we are going to get by despite the downturn in the United
States. That is why Canada is going to have the best growth
rate of all G7 countries this year.
[English]
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, one little fact the finance minister forgets to
mention is that with his CPP tax hikes there will actually be an
increase in payroll taxes this year.
In his political statement in the fall the finance minister
projected growth at 3.5%. Then the Governor of the Bank of
Canada said 3% in January. His parliamentary secretary
speculated about growth as low as 2% last week. I was on a show
yesterday with the member for Markham who speculated about a 1.5%
growth.
1420
Among all these incredible shrinking growth projections where
does the finance minister stand? What does he believe growth
will be in Canada this year? How will he incorporate that into
his fiscal plan?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member knows we operate on the basis of the
consensus of private sector economists and that consensus will be
out somewhere near the end of March. The hon. member also knows
that in October we set in place a substantial contingency reserve
and prudence to cover exactly the kind of slowdown we are now
seeing.
I have another question, if I might. When the hon. member
refers to the Canada pension plan premiums, is he referring to
the Canada pension plan premiums which we and the provinces, me
and the then treasurer of Alberta, the current Leader of the
Opposition, increased? Are those the ones that he is referring
to?
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
The Speaker: Order, please. I know there is a lot of
exuberance in the House today but we are losing time on the 45
minutes for question period.
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, I can understand the exuberance when this tax on the
CPP represents one of the largest tax increases in Canadian
history. It was opposed by this opposition. The Alberta
government sought a way to treat Albertans through a separate
system.
What I can tell the finance minister is that we continue to have
a tax burden which is 12% higher as a percentage of our GDP than
that of the United States. How can he stand in this place and
tell Canadians who are leaving this country in the brain drain
that our taxes are lower when every available statistic
demonstrates that our tax burden is substantially higher than
that of our major trading partner?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, and our health care system is a lot better. I want to
go back to the Canada pension plan. To the best of my knowledge,
at all of the federal provincial meetings that I was at,
including that with the then treasurer of Alberta, there was
support for the Canada pension plan.
Is it now the position of the Alliance that it is against the
Canada pension plan? Is it the position of the Alliance that it
would renege on the unfunded liability?
What is the Alliance saying about the Canada pension plan, which
is one of the pillars of our retirement system? It is one that
all Canadians believe in. The hon. member ought to stand now and
tell us if he supports it or if he does not.
* * *
[Translation]
FREE TRADE AREA OF THE AMERICAS
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, on
February 8, the Prime Minister said that he could not make the
negotiating documents for the Summit of the Americas available
because certain countries were opposed.
But three weeks prior to his statement, the 435 members of the
U.S. House of Representatives and the 100 U.S. senators already
had access to these very documents.
How can the Prime Minister explain the response he gave in the
House, when he knew that U.S. parliamentarians had access to
these documents?
Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, instead of talking about the American
system, let us talk about our own Canadian one.
Here, we include parliamentarians in the development of policies
and priorities having to do with trade negotiations. Here, we
listen to Canadians, and we will continue to listen to them and
to communicate with them by various means.
Our government defends its position on trade negotiations before the House
committee. This government is more inclusive than any that has
gone before it.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, this
is amazing. We are told that there is transparency and that we
have access to these debates, but we are not even permitted to
have the agenda for these meetings.
We do not know what will be discussed there, and we are told
that we are involved in the development of a position.
I once again ask the Prime Minister, who was so quick to tell us
on February 8 that he could not show us the documents because
certain countries were opposed, how is it that we may not see
them here but they are available in the United States?
The Prime Minister is aware of this. If he is not, there is a
problem. How can he tell us such a thing when he knows it is
not the case? Did he not tell members the exact opposite—
The Speaker: The hon. Minister for International Trade.
Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is our strong belief that all
Canadians—not just parliamentarians, but all Canadians—should have
access to the drafts of negotiating texts, and we are bringing
pressure to bear on our 33 partners in the Americas for the very
purpose of having these texts made public.
We cannot take unilateral action. Our partners must be in
agreement.
1425
Once again, I can assure you of one thing: Canada leads the
hemisphere with respect to open and transparent initiatives.
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, with such a
protector, Canada is not out of the woods.
On the same issue, yesterday, during Oral Question Period, the
Minister for International Trade said, and I quote: “If it is
available to congress, it will not be long before it becomes
public”. A few minutes later, during a media scrum, he said
that members of congress are bound by a confidentiality rule.
My question to the Minister for International Trade is: Does he
not have a serious credibility problem in the area of
international trade, as he did with human resources, when he
says one thing and then the exact opposite a few minutes later?
Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I clearly said that the United States and
Canada have different ways of doing things.
In this case, the parliamentary committee was consulted, and our
negotiating positions in Buenos Aires reflected what the
parliamentary committee had heard.
We have our own way of doing things. We will continue to closely
consult with the provinces, and also with parliamentarians.
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, what trust can
we put in the comments of the Minister for International Trade
when he tells us in the House that it is impossible for us, as
parliamentarians, to have access to the texts of that agreement
because, as he puts it, our partners are opposed to that? We
assume leadership when it comes to transparency. We are clear.
The U.S. congress is no Mickey Mouse institution; its members
have access to these documents. How can we find the minister
credible?
Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we were the first country to make our
negotiating mandate public. The Canadian positions were the
first ones available on the Internet for all Canadians to see.
We have offered leadership to the countries of the hemispheres
at the meeting in Toronto, at the last meeting of trade
ministers, and we will continue to take steps in that direction,
but also in the respect of our partners, contrary to what Bloc
Quebecois members are requesting.
* * *
[English]
TRADE
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, that is
the website that has no position for Canada on services. In the
rush to give market access to multinational health corporations,
the federal government is recklessly abandoning our universal
health care system.
When the U.S. wants to protect something it values like its
national security measures, it demands a general exception as a
condition of signing any trade deal. Surely health care for
Canadians deserves similar safeguards.
Instead of recklessly abandoning it, will the government make a
clear exception for health care a condition of signing any trade
deal?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we have said many times that the health care system will
not be affected at all by any negotiation in relation to a trade
agreement with the Americas.
Ms. Alexa McDonough (Halifax, NDP): Mr. Speaker, maybe
we should see that on the website where there is no position set
out now. The auto pact was supposed to be safe and yesterday it
died a permanent death. Our environment was supposed to be safe
and yet yesterday citizens and the government had to go to court
to fight a NAFTA tribunal decision to let polluters pollute.
Canadians want trade deals and trade rules that safeguard what
they value most. Will the government refuse to sign any GATS
deal that fails to safeguard such priorities as health,
environment and decent jobs?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we have established rules clearly on the question of the
environment and, as I mentioned clearly, on the question of
health that cannot be affected by NAFTA or by the trade
agreements we are having with the Americas.
1430
It is also not against GATS to have medicare in Canada. On the
environment, we signed international agreements and we respect
them. Sometimes there are appeals in front of the NAFTA or GATS
panels and we defend our interests there, as any other country
has the right to do.
* * *
BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT BANK
Right Hon. Joe Clark (Calgary Centre, PC): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the Prime Minister.
I wonder if the Prime Minister would confirm that a memorandum
was prepared in the spring of 1999 by officials in the Prime
Minister's office and delivered by Mr. Jean Carle through the
office of the president of the Business Development Bank
proposing answers to inquiries about the Prime Minister's
intervention in the Yvon Duhaime and Auberge Grand-Mère file.
Hon. Brian Tobin (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I think most members of the House, in light of the very
clear and definitive statement yesterday by the RCMP, would have
expected the right hon. gentleman to stand today and apologize to
the Prime Minister of Canada.
I say with respect that this Joe runs the risk of going from Joe
who to Joe McCarthy if he does not stop this kind of politics.
Right Hon. Joe Clark (Calgary Centre, PC): Mr. Speaker,
let me quote from that memorandum to the president of the
Business Development Bank.
[Translation]
The memo reads:
Jean Carle gave us the questions and answers that the Prime
Minister's office had prepared on the Duhaime file.
[English]
This memo confirms the direct involvement of Mr. Jean Carle. Why
did the Prime Minister tell the House so categorically on
February 7 that Mr. Carle had no involvement in any way in the
Auberge Grand-Mère file?
Hon. Brian Tobin (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, we have a definitive statement from the ethics
counsellor saying that this matter has been investigated and
there is no basis for the allegations being made.
Yesterday we had an RCMP statement saying that the matter raised
by the member has been investigated and that there is no basis
for any further investigation.
What we have is a stubborn leader of a party in the far shadows
of the Commons that cannot accept the right and decent way to
proceed and to apologize to the Prime Minister for his behaviour.
* * *
THE PRIME MINISTER
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, while it is no bombshell, it is no secret that the
Prime Minister has been propping up the Auberge Grand-Mère for
years. By coincidence, of course, the better the hotel did the
better the golf course did next door.
There are a couple of competing hotels in town: the Prime
Minister's favourite, the Auberge Grand-Mère, and of course the
Gouverneur. The Gouverneur is close to the Prime Minister's
constituency office and the Grand-Mère is across town. Can
anyone guess where his staff stayed, though, to the tune of
$33,000? It was at the Grand-Mère, of course. Over at the
Gouverneur less than $300 was spent, although it was far more
convenient for them.
The question is, what could it be that draws the staff of the
Prime Minister over to the Grand-Mère?
Hon. Brian Tobin (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I would have thought the member would be amazed by the
fact that after visiting the riding and doing all of the work,
the total payout was only half as much as the payout to the
Alliance Party from a law firm that benefited by some $300,000
from the taxpayers of Alberta to cover the last bit of slander
coming from that party.
Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, I guess we could spend the next 40 minutes
apologizing back and forth across the aisle. However, from 1999
until 2001—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. The Chair cannot hear the
question. It is very important that we all hear the questions and
the answers. The hon. member for Edmonton North has the floor.
Miss Deborah Grey: Mr. Speaker, from 1999 to 2001 the
Prime Minister's staff spent a grand total of 330 nights and
$33,000 at the Auberge Grand-Mère. By stark contrast, they spent
exactly three nights and less than $300 at the Gouverneur. The
Grand-Mère is clear across town and the Gouverneur is practically
next door. Was it official policy that they would stay at the
Auberge Grand-Mère or just a subtle—
The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Industry.
Hon. Brian Tobin (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, having the member stand and explain why the Prime
Minister got such a big majority because he visited his riding
quite often over the last number of years is frankly something we
appreciate. However, trying to turn that into something suspect
or questionable should be beneath the member. Sadly it is not.
* * *
1435
[Translation]
FREE TRADE AREA OF THE AMERICAS
Mr. Pierre Paquette (Joliette, BQ): Mr. Speaker, problems like
those currently being experienced in relation to negotiations on
the free trade area of the Americas have already arisen, when
the multilateral agreement on investment was being negotiated.
Why? Because of the same desire as today to keep everything
secret.
When the government was asked what was going on, its answer to
us was “Everything is fine. Trust us. There is no reason to be
afraid”.
When the texts became known, we realized that we were headed for
catastrophe and that a good portion of what is known as the
Quebec model would have been passed over.
Are we to understand today that the minister is again asking us
to place blind trust in him as far as the free trade area of the
Americas is concerned? Is this what we are to understand?
Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, what we have undertaken to negotiate is on
the Internet. We have made our position absolutely public in
the tables available there.
The mandate entrusted to me by the Canadian government is known.
The positions have been discussed with the provinces. Each
province has access to the Internet site in question and is
providing us with its position on each of the points.
We held a federal-provincial conference here on February 5, and
there were discussions precisely on this matter. I can assure
the House that Canada is going to play an important role in
Buenos Aires.
Mr. Pierre Paquette (Joliette, BQ): Mr. Speaker, what the
minister appears not to understand is that the Canadian
positions cannot be evaluated if we do not know the positions
that are on the table being negotiated.
Does the minister understand that more and more bodies in civil
society, in all communities throughout Canada and Quebec, are
mobilizing against this negotiation? Does the minister not
recognize that his lack of transparency and his close-mouthed
attitude are responsible for this mounting public opposition?
Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we are going to respect our partners in the
hemispheres of the Americas. We are going to continue to ask
them to be so kind as to make these texts public, because they
should be and we want them to be. Canada will not do so
unilaterally, however, out of respect for the other countries
with whom we are in negotiation.
* * *
[English]
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mr. Rob Anders (Calgary West, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, yesterday the Minister of National Defence tried to
pretend that Canada's coastal defence is not compromised despite
the cut in Aurora flying hours to 8,000. His air force chief
disagrees. We have a document signed by General Campbell warning
that any cut of Aurora flying hours below 11,500 would seriously
impair the ability of the air force to protect Canadian
sovereignty.
Given this warning from a soldier who ought to know, why has the
minister pushed for these cuts?
Hon. Art Eggleton (Minister of National Defence, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, this is in fact what General Campbell and the air
force staff have recommended. They are saying that because we
can invest more in upgrading our equipment and putting better
technology into the equipment so that we can get more efficiency
out of it, we will get a better quality product and be able to do
just as much patrolling as we were been able to do before.
Where they will save money and time is in the fact that they
will do more on land simulation to train people in terms of
flying. This will cut down on the number of hours that the
aircraft are needed in the air.
Mr. Rob Anders (Calgary West, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I have the document right here. They are either in the
air or they are not.
When the Liberals took office in 1993 annual Aurora flying hours
were 19,200. Now the minister wants only 8,000 hours. Yesterday
the minister denied these numbers but we have the proof right
here. General Campbell thinks this 58% cut will have an
unacceptable impact “on border protection”.
Why should we trust a career politician instead of the expertise
of a career soldier?
Hon. Art Eggleton (Minister of National Defence, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, again I repeat that this is not something that comes
from me or from the government. It is a recommendation from the
air force. It is a recommendation from General Campbell and
others in the air force who feel that they can operate this in a
more efficient fashion and that we should put more investment
into upgrading equipment, and that is exactly what we are doing.
* * *
[Translation]
INTERNATIONAL TRADE
Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg—Jacques-Cartier, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs and the
Minister for International Trade often praise the European model.
The European Commission, which negotiates trade agreements on
behalf of the European Union, is mandated directly by the
countries in the European Union.
1440
Is the government prepared to set up a similar mechanism for
co-operation with the provinces, that is to have the team of
Canadian negotiators mandated explicitly by the federal
government and the provinces?
Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I am happy to see that the Bloc Quebecois
continues to look for inspiration from models elsewhere. After
wanting the American model, here it is back again with the
European model, now.
I can tell the hon. member that we are very happy with the
co-operation we have initiated with the provinces. We have had a
federal provincial conference where we discussed all the issues
in the negotiations, and the discussion was very useful. We are
definitely on the same wavelength as regards most of the issues.
Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg—Jacques-Cartier, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, the mandate to negotiate is defined and given by the
governments comprising the European Union and they must also
formally approve the result of the negotiations.
If, once again, they are serious in their praise for the virtues
of the European model, as was the Minister for International
Trade in the media recently, is the government prepared to set it
up here, in other words to have the provinces approve the outcome
of the negotiations as well?
Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is true that the European model is
evolving pretty quickly toward our model of federalism.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Hon. Pierre Pettigrew: So it is clear that, if Europe is
becoming a federation, it is the choice of many.
I can tell the member that we will continue to work very closely
with the provinces in this area, because it is vital to us that
the Canadian position reflect all of our interests across the
country.
* * *
[English]
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton Centre-East, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of National Defence
wants to reduce the Aurora's patrol hours from 19,000 when the
Liberals took office to just 8,000 hours today.
When it comes to determining minimum operational requirements,
who is more qualified, the chief of the air force with 30 years
of military experience or the minister with 2 years?
Hon. Art Eggleton (Minister of National Defence, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, as I indicated previously, the recommendation does
not come from me. The recommendation is bottom up not top down.
It comes from the air force.
Mr. Rob Anders: Have you not read it?
Hon. Art Eggleton: They frequently get all their research
wrong, and I am sure I will find out where they got it wrong on
this one as well.
First, they are wrong to say 19,000 because it is currently at
11,000. We are talking about an 8,000 difference. However the
difference will be in terms of a more efficient training system,
not in terms of any fewer patrols to ensure the security of the
country. That will continue to be maintained.
Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton Centre-East, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, recently the cannons used for the
Governor General's gun salute for the Speech from the Throne had
to be brought to Parliament Hill by autoclub tow trucks because
the military truck wheels are unserviceable.
Obviously, operational readiness is at a low ebb and has little
priority by the Liberals.
Would the minister tell us when the wheels of our army will be
turning again?
Hon. Art Eggleton (Minister of National Defence, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, the army did a magnificent firing the cannons to
honour the Governor General when she was here.
Let me say that the government is replacing or upgrading every
piece of equipment in the Canadian forces. In fact, I was just
over in Eritrea, Ethiopia. Our troops are raving about the new
armoured personnel carrier known as the LAV III. It is state of
the art, up to date equipment. Even the Americans now want to
buy Canadian.
* * *
[Translation]
FREE TRADE AREA OF THE AMERICAS
Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister for International Trade.
Given the importance that an agreement on the free trade area of
the Americas would have for Canadians, does the minister agree
that it would be reasonable to have all members of the House
express their views and those of their constituents?
Is the minister prepared to recommend a take note debate on this
issue before the summit in Quebec City, in April?
Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Ottawa—Vanier
for his question and his continued interest in this very
important issue.
I am pleased to announce to the House that, indeed, I pledge to
ensure that our government ask the House to hold a special take
note debate on the FTAA before the summit in Quebec City.
* * *
1445
[English]
TRADE
Mr. Svend Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the trade minister. Yesterday Metalclad
Corporation was in a B.C. court defending its NAFTA right to run
a toxic waste dump in Mexico, which ignores the health and
environmental concerns of elected local and state governments.
While the federal government has intervened in this corporate
attack on democracy, will the minister assure the House that
Canada will not sign any new FTAA accord that includes any type
of investor state provision like that in chapter 11 in NAFTA
which led to this dangerous and destructive Metalclad tribunal
decision?
Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the member knows very well that I have
been quite clear that we are already seeking clarifications on
chapter 11 of NAFTA as drafted.
We have been working with the Mexicans and the Americans to
bring those clarifications in order to ensure that chapter 11
reflects the intentions of the drafters of NAFTA at the time. In
an eventual FTAA we would not bring elements of ambiguity to a
situation that we are trying to correct.
Mr. Svend Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
I wish the minister could have just said no. The minister has
said that he will not make the FTAA negotiating documents public
unless we get permission from all 33 of our FTAA partners.
Why is the minister giving effectively a veto to these countries
over the right of Canadians to know the contents of these
important documents that affect our future? Why is he paying
more respect to the governments of St. Lucia, Barbados and Peru
than he is to the people of Canada? Why the contempt for
Canadian people?
Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, when we negotiate with partners we
respect them. We respect the name of the game of the
negotiations.
We are the first country to have put our position on the
Internet. On behalf of Canada I have been asking to have all
documents published. We will try to persuade our partners to do
so because we believe it would be in the best interest of all
citizens and all parliamentarians to have them.
* * *
BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT BANK
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, with evidence that has now been put before the House
that clearly shows an intervention by Jean Carle on behalf of the
Prime Minister to the BDC in the auberge file, could the Prime
Minister tell us whether or not there has been any further
intervention from himself, from Jean Carle or any other member of
the Prime Minister's staff with respect to the Auberge Grand-Mère
affair?
Hon. Brian Tobin (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, given the issues surrounding agriculture, given the
issues surrounding the auto industry, given the issues
surrounding the IT sector and given the kind of issues that
concern Canadians where they live in their communities, the
people of Canada should be asking themselves why that party, with
the evidence of an ethics counsellor and an RCMP investigation
saying there is no basis for any further investigation, continues
to ask questions that are designed to smear the reputation of
somebody who has given 38 years to public life and who has
emerged after 38 years with a sterling reputation and a sterling
character. He does not deserve these kinds of attacks.
Right Hon. Joe Clark (Calgary Centre, PC): Mr. Speaker,
why does the Prime Minister not stand in the House and have the
courage to speak for himself and tell us why he assured the House
that Mr. Jean Carle was not involved in this file when this
memorandum proves the opposite? I would be prepared to lay this
memorandum on the table of the House of Commons.
Hon. Brian Tobin (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, quite frankly the real question that is consuming most
members of the House and those who watch it is what exactly is
the right hon. gentleman trying to do.
I will quote what the right hon. gentleman said yesterday. He
said:
The RCMP appears to have decided that there was no criminal
wrongdoing and I accept their decision on the basis of the facts
that are known now.
What happened since yesterday? Did he have another conversation
with the former president of the BDC?
* * *
1450
PRIVACY COMMISSIONER
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton—Melville, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, after more than five years the
justice minister continues to ignore the recommendations of the
privacy commissioner. Three and a half million Canadians are
labelled as potentially dangerous because their names are
contained in a police database.
The minister claims success for her registry because of
information in that database. This turns out to be a bogus
claim. The privacy commissioner revealed the minister's database
even contains the names of witnesses and victims of crime.
Why is the minister ignoring the privacy commissioner? Why has
she not fixed this mess?
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let me reassure the House that
we have not ignored the privacy commissioner. In fact, on a
number of occasions over the past seven years we have consulted
with the privacy commissioner.
We have laid before the privacy commissioner questions that we
would ask. The privacy commissioner and his staff indicated that
those questions were appropriate.
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton—Melville, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, that is not true, according to the
privacy commissioner. Most of these 3.5 million Canadians in the
police database do not even know the police have a file on them.
They do not even know that they could become targets of police
action because of the incorrect information the minister has on
them.
The privacy commissioner raises other concerns in his letter
that information in the police database is irrelevant and exceeds
the authority granted to the minister in the Firearms Act.
Millions of Canadians have to abide by the Firearms Act. Why not
the minister?
Hon. Anne McLellan (Minister of Justice and Attorney General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let me reiterate for the hon.
member that we have consulted with the previous privacy
commissioner on a number of occasions over the past seven years.
If the member is referring to the new privacy commissioner and
if the new privacy commissioner wishes to talk to me about
concerns he might have, I am certainly willing to do that. I
would expect that he would give me the courtesy of contacting me
directly to discuss any concerns he might have.
* * *
[Translation]
FREE TRADE AREA OF THE AMERICAS
Ms. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the Minister
for International Trade just told us that he wanted the House to
hold a debate on the free trade area of the Americas issue
before the Summit of the Americas in Quebec City.
In all logic, in order for us to have a serious debate and
before parliamentarians express their points of view, will he
undertake to make available to us the texts which will form the
basic of negotiations for the free trade area of the Americas?
Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the House is perfectly aware that the free
trade agreement will bear a strong resemblance to the other free
trade agreements we have negotiated. Obviously, one free trade
agreement is pretty much like another.
The Canadian government's negotiating position is there. I can
assure the House that, on the basis of the information contained
therein, parliamentarians, who have already made a large
contribution to the Canadian government's position through their
participation in House committees, will be perfectly able to
express very interesting points of view, and I am looking
forward to taking part in this debate.
Ms. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, earlier, I was
happy that the minister agreed to a debate, but surely he cannot
mean what he just said. If we want to debate the negotiating
position in the House, we must have the texts.
Why did he earlier tell us that it would be a lack of respect to
make them available to us? Is he saying that the United States
showed a lack of respect towards the other countries by doing
what the Bloc Quebecois is asking be done?
Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the Americans have a process allowing the
release of a certain number of documents. It is a different one
from the one we have in Canada.
The Canadian system also has a large number of other advantages,
because parliamentarians, through committees, have already been
consulted by the government, which is not necessarily the case
in other systems.
We can assure the House that we will have an ongoing dialogue on
this very important issue with all parties and with every
province in Canada, so that we can make a fine contribution in
Buenos Aires.
* * *
[English]
COAST GUARD
Mr. James Lunney (Nanaimo—Alberni, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, on Friday I asked the Minister of Fisheries and
Oceans a question about the disbanding of the Canadian Coast
Guard search and rescue divers. Tragically on Sunday Paul Sandhu
died when his car jumped a dike and landed in the Fraser River.
1455
The search and rescue hovercraft was there within three minutes.
Divers could have attempted a rescue but they were not allowed to
bring their diving gear due to the minister's order. They were
forced to stand by as firefighters pulled the vehicle from the
water.
Will the minister explain to the House how he could justify this
bureaucratic decision that has already resulted in one lost life?
Hon. Herb Dhaliwal (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I extend from all of us in the House our
sympathies to the Sandhu family on this tragic accident.
The hon. member should know that rescue diving is not a core
mandate of the coast guard. In fact it is a mandate of the
Department of National Defence. However, the coast guard has had
a pilot project which it assessed over the last six years. As a
result of the comprehensive assessment it decided to discontinue
that pilot project.
This was an operational decision by the experts. Judging from
the question the member asked earlier, I think he wants—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Vancouver Island North.
Mr. John Duncan (Vancouver Island North, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the minister's own advisory committee
advised and recommended against this move. The coast guard
rescue team was implemented in 1994 because there was a pressing
need, and there still is. The rapid response of the Sea Island
hovercraft and the diving team create a unique capability that
cannot be matched by DND or the RCMP.
The minister has cancelled this against the recommendations of
his own advisory group. Why is the minister saying no when his
experts are saying yes?
Hon. Herb Dhaliwal (Minister of Fisheries and Oceans,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, let me repeat for the hon. member that
rescue diving is not a core mandate of the coast guard. This is
consistent with the U.S. and British coast guard.
This was a pilot project for six years started by this
government. There was a comprehensive assessment of the pilot
project. As a result of that assessment the experts decided on
an operational basis that this could not be continued, but I can
assure the member that the Department of Defence will continue to
provide the excellent service that it has in rescue diving.
* * *
AUTOMOBILE INDUSTRY
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian (Brampton Centre, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Industry. Yesterday
a delegation from Canadian Auto Workers, led by Buzz Hargrove,
met with the Deputy Prime Minister, the Minister of Industry and
members of the caucus to discuss the current situation of the
Canadian auto industry in the light of the end of the Canada-U.S.
auto pact.
Will the minister inform the House what impact this development
will have and what the position of the Canadian government will
be in the context of NAFTA following the expiry of the auto pact?
Hon. Brian Tobin (Minister of Industry, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Brampton Centre for his
question. There is no doubt that Canada has been extremely
successful in the auto business in North America. In fact, we
make two cars for every one we sell in this country, so we have
done very well.
The purpose of the CAW visit was to say that it is important to
look to the future. We agreed to re-establish the auto industry
advisory panel. We agreed to look at the possibility of R and D
investment to keep Canada competitive and to ensure that
innovation is very much present in the sector. We agreed to
continue to work with members of parliament, such as the hon.
member, who represent their constituents in this area and who are
very concerned about ensuring that our competitive edge is
maintained in this country.
* * *
THE ENVIRONMENT
Mr. Rob Merrifield (Yellowhead, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, the Cheviot coal mine in my riding is still waiting for
an answer from the government with regard to environmental
assessment. It has been waiting for five years.
It was approved in 1997. Appeal after appeal has delayed it, so
much so that the buyers now have torn up their contracts and have
gone elsewhere looking for coal. Twelve hundred jobs have been
lost in my riding. It sets a bad precedence and puts a chill in
Canadian development.
Will the minister today commit to the House that he will
streamline the government's red tape before any more jobs are
lost in Canada?
Hon. Ralph Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, in this case there was a joint federal-provincial panel
that examined the potential for any negative effects with respect
to the Cheviot coal project. It determined that there were
likely to be none that could not be mitigated or compensated for.
Obviously in the meantime the company involved has taken some
other decisions with respect to its future business plan.
The hon. gentleman raises an issue with respect to streamlining
regulatory processes. That is a suggestion the government takes
seriously. Over the last number of years I am pleased to say we
have made some progress. We have some further—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Yellowhead.
1500
Mr. Rob Merrifield (Yellowhead, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, this is an interesting day. We blew it on Cheviot, but
it is our lucky day because we have another chance. Just up the
road from Cheviot there is the Grande Cache coal mine that is
going through exactly the same thing in trying to reopen an
existing mine and trying to complete an environmental study at
the same time so that miners can go back to work.
The government has a chance to streamline that process and give
a good project the Canadian advantage. Will the government show
some leadership and get rid of the red tape so that Canada is
open for business in the 21st century?
Hon. Ralph Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and
Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, in a number of cases that involve complexities with
respect to regulatory procedures we have made some very good
progress in recent years. I think, for example, of the
development of diamonds in the Northwest Territories, the Cheviot
case that was referred to earlier, and some of the activities
offshore.
There are a number of regulatory agencies that are engaged in
these projects. Some of them are federal. Some of them are
provincial. We always do our very best to streamline the
processes so there can be a very definite beginning, a clear set
of rules, an end and a decision that investors can rely on. We
will continue our efforts to make that system better.
* * *
[Translation]
FREE TRADE AREA OF THE AMERICAS
Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire (Longueuil, BQ): Mr. Speaker, according to
the statement by the Minister for International Trade, there
would appear to be two methods, the Canadian and the American.
If I understand the minister rightly, the American method
appears to consist in a debate based on the texts that will make
up the agreement, while the Canadian one would be a debate based
on what the government, or in fact the minister, feels like
telling us. Is that what I am to understand?
Hon. Pierre Pettigrew (Minister for International Trade,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, there is also a third, the European method
referred to by our colleague, the hon. member for
Charlesbourg—Jacques-Cartier.
However, I can say this. Before the Summit of the Americas, an
exploratory debate will be held in the House—and I think this is
a piece of very good news—on the free trade area of the Americas.
This will, I believe, be of very great help to the government
and to the negotiators who will be heading to Buenos Aires.
[English]
Mr. Peter MacKay: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I would seek consent of the House to table the documents
referred to by the right hon. member for Calgary Centre with
respect to the involvement of Jean Carle in the Auberge
Grand-Mère file and the Business Development Bank.
The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
1505
[English]
SUPPLY
ALLOTTED DAY—ELECTORAL REFORM
The House resumed consideration of the motion and of the amendment.
Mr. Steve Mahoney (Mississauga West, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
there is a fairly substantial amount of activity going on around
here, but I will try to focus on this particular debate.
The interesting thing about this motion in one sense is where it
comes from. The motion comes from the New Democratic Party,
which all of a sudden, in this place at least, seems to have
discovered something on the road to Damascus: that perhaps there
is a better way of getting elected. I can certainly understand
why the NDP would want to look for a better way to get elected
given the lack of success that it has endured over the past many
years.
I will be sharing my time with
the hon. member for Parkdale—High Park.
I can understand why the NDP would want to make changes and I
can understand why members of the official opposition might want
to support those changes. This issue of representation and how
people arrive at this place is something that generally occupies
the minds and time of those who cannot succeed under the current
system.
The proof of that would seem to be in the fact that when the New
Democrats have enjoyed power for some number of years in British
Columbia there is no talk of proportional representation or
changing the system. I suspect that after the next provincial
election the NDP will be reduced to a rump of their current
status and of course the first thing on their agenda will be to
change the way the NDP gets elected in British Columbia.
The other example would be the province of Ontario, where Bob
Rae enjoyed five years in office. The rest of us did not, but he
did. During that five year period when I had the challenge,
shall we say, of serving in opposition with the Liberal Party of
Ontario, I do not recall the government of the day, the New
Democratic government of the province of Ontario, leaping
forward, standing up and shouting that it would have to find a
new way to get elected.
Clearly this only occurs when someone is either bitter or
confused or is looking for something that might work because the
current system simply will not work.
The other issue that I find curious coming from opposition
parties is this constant feeding frenzy about reform in the
House. The denigration of members of parliament, particularly on
the government side, I personally find offensive. I know the
great work that many of my colleagues have done and continue to
do. I have talked about it in this place so I will not go there
today.
I would suggest that is another example of the bitterness that a
political machine or a party has when it arrives in this place
and realizes that over 90% of the Canadian public did not vote
for it, that it is not the government and that it does not get to
make the decisions about how the country runs, whether it is the
budget or whatever it happens to be. These parties can only try
to put some pieces of metal into the spokes of the wheel of the
governing party to see if they cannot trip it up.
Frankly that is what is happening here. This is the second time
we have had an opposition motion. We have not had a motion here
that deals with the substantive issues Canadians are concerned
about, such as the changes in our health care policies that are
occurring at the provincial level, such as upholding the Canada
Health Act and the role of the national government. I have not
seen a position come from the opposition saying that the
government should do that, even though that indeed is what we do.
I have not seen concern expressed by the opposition with great
indignation about the two tier health care systems that are on
the verge of occurring in the province of Alberta and, who knows,
possibly even in the province of Ontario.
1510
I do not see an opposition motion coming forward dealing with
the recent decision that perhaps should be debated in this place,
the decision of George W. Bush to bomb Iraq. I do not see
anything coming forward. That is an issue that I think Canadians
care about. Canadians care about what is happening in that part
of the world.
I do not see an opposition motion coming forward to deal with
the government's recent announcement to put $120 million into
clean air in the province and the country to meet the standards
we committed to at Kyoto.
What do we hear from opposition members? We hear them saying
let us find a different way to get elected, because it did not
work in 2001, it did not work in 1997 and it did not work in
1993. All they want to do is talk about how they can change the
electoral system.
There are perhaps some areas where reform could and should be
looked at. The Lortie commission was started by this government
and reported here. There were bills adopted and there were changes
made. It makes sense. We should not just say everything we do
is right.
Surely to goodness there are other areas of concern that
parliamentarians should be putting their minds to. I am sure
that the Canadian Alliance would get somewhat nervous if we were
to have parliamentary reforms that dealt with the referendum
policy we all heard about with such fondness during the last
election, about how if 3% of the people would submit a petition
there could be a referendum on any particular item. Then the
leader of course distanced himself from that particular issue and
said it was not necessarily 3%, that it could be greater, that
the party members were not sure. In fact at one point, I think,
they were going to conduct a referendum on what the percentage
should be so that they could then determine when and where they
should hold a referendum.
Maybe we should have a look at reforming policies like that, at
reform in the electoral system and making it more transparent.
How about releasing the names of people who contribute to
leadership campaigns? Would that not be interesting?
We do that. We have no difficulty with it. Members opposite do
not seem to want to do that, yet we see as recently as yesterday
and today the Leader of the Opposition trying to respond, in a
rather feeble way, to questions put by the media about a $70,000
contribution to the Canadian Alliance Party made by a member of a
law firm that was paid some $300,000 or $400,000 to defend the
Leader of the Opposition in his defamation suit. Interestingly
enough, the payment of that $300,000 or $400,000 came from
Alberta taxpayers. Maybe there should be some way for us to
investigate that.
Is it appropriate in electoral reform that when a leader of the
opposition or a leader of any party in the House is elected at a
party convention that the party then has the moral and legal
authority to write a cheque for $50,000 to a sitting member so
that person will vacate a safe seat, in the case of the Canadian
Alliance, obviously, to allow the leader to run in that seat? Is
it proper? Is that appropriate?
An hon. member: Why don't you talk about the motion?
Mr. Steve Mahoney: Is that not something the member
chirping over there thinks is the kind of electoral reform we
should undertake? I would have no difficulty with that. I do
not think it is not right to pay off a sitting member to vacate
his seat so that the leader can simply come walking in.
We know that the Canadian Alliance, like its predecessor, the
Reform Party, simply wants to adopt the American system. I have
heard some rumours the Alliance is going to take a committee of
its own down to Florida to learn how to count in the electoral
process. We have—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Lanark—Carleton.
Mr. Scott Reid: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. It is
my understanding that the rules of the House require that all
speakers actually address the question at hand, and I can see
absolutely no connection between what the member is saying and
the matter at hand. It is a partisan rant.
1515
The Speaker: The motion before the House deals with
electoral reform. The hon. member for Mississauga West, the last
I heard, was addressing the question of adopting an American
system, which I assume he was going to say dealt with elections.
Perhaps it was a bold assumption on my part. The hon. member for
Mississauga West.
Mr. Steve Mahoney: Mr. Speaker, I know the Alliance
members do not like it when people bring up the problems they
have within their own organization, I understand that. However,
it is about electoral reform, there is no question.
The motion here is that the NDP members wants to change the
system so they can get elected a little easier and in greater
numbers than they have been able to up to now. If we are going
to do electoral reform, should we look at what does it mean to
get elected as a leader in a party structure? I think that is
relevant to this motion.
We cannot get to this place until we are nominated and elected
by the party, either to be the candidate in a given riding or to
be the leader of the party. Do we want to just talk about what
they want to talk about or do we want to talk about the entire
issue?
I will close by saying we have to compare apples to apples. If
we are going to reform the system then we have to look at some of
the mistakes and the unusual circumstances that have been going
on across the way.
Ms. Sarmite Bulte (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to also
join in on the NDP motion that the House strike a special all
party committee to examine the merits of various models of
proportional representation and other electoral reforms.
I am happy to participate in the debate because in the last
session I had the opportunity to discuss the whole issue of
proportional representation and proportional electoral systems in
Alberta. I was there as the federal representative to the
Commonwealth Parliamentary Association.
The Commonwealth Parliamentary Association is the only
parliamentary association in Canada which actually has separate
provinces as its members. Once a year, I, my colleagues from the
other provincial legislatures and members of the federal branch
meet to discuss topical issues. We did so in Alberta. It
provided for lively debate but we could not reach consensus. It
was a very emotional debate. People felt strongly one way or the
other way. However, we could not arrive at consensus, not only
at the federal level but also looking at it provincially.
I know this matter was actually the subject of an international
conference of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association two
years ago in New Zealand, when the member for
Haldimand—Norfolk—Brant was the chair of the CPA. Again we led
an all party delegation and again no consensus was achieved at
that time.
I would like to address the motion in the context of whether or
not the proportional system works best as far as women are
concerned. Does it increase women's participation in the
political process? Does it actually increase the number of
elected women?
Two years ago another parliamentary association, the
Inter-Parliamentary Union, released a global analysis of what has
worked for women in politics and what has not between the years
1975 and 1998. It also surveyed all of its members.
One of the questions addressed was “Which electoral system
works best for women”. Was it the majority system, was it a
proportional system, was it a mixed system? Interestingly
enough, the IPU's world inquiries led one to be rather prudent in
its conclusions. While it found that the proportional system may
be the most conducive to the election of women, it was only
conducive provided there were a number of safeguards that were
applied.
The safeguards included, for example, including at least one
woman or giving a percentage of women in each electoral list and
including at least one woman in an elected position in every
closed list. It found that it worked well if it alternated
between men and women in every list. Also, it needed to
establish that a certain percentage of lists would be headed by
women.
The issues to be dealt with in putting women on a list or people
on a list are quite complex. In addition, quite surprisingly the
study found that a proportional system, even with the safeguards
that I just talked about, was only a temporary measure for a long
existing imbalance.
We still have a long way to go to ensure that the House of
Commons is represented 50:50, that being 50% women, 50% men,
which reflects our population.
1520
While at first glance one might argue that the proportional
system assists in increasing the number of elected women, I would
respectfully submit that the proportional system does not in
itself ensure the increased participation of women in politics.
Here are the important things that have to be decided. Who
decides whose name appears on the list? Who decides how many men
will appear on the list? Who decides how many women will appear
on the list? Who decides what percentage of women will appear on
each electoral list? More important, who decides what percentage
of the list will actually be headed by women?
It is not our riding associations or constituents at grassroots
who decide who is going to be on those list. It is the political
parties and the people in power who decide. The grassroots, the
constituents and the riding associations have no input whatsoever
into those lists. However, they are the people to whom we are
all accountable, not the powers that be.
I would like to take this opportunity to share with my
colleagues what has recently transpired in France. The last two
or three weeks the front page story of the New York Times
has been about France's new parity law. Last year France passed
a law which requires all political parties to field an equal
number of male and female candidates in almost all elections,
starting with the municipal elections which are coming up in
March.
This is the first country in the world that has actually
required this and I would submit that the jury is still out on
it. We do not know what will happen and how this will increase
women's participation in the political system or being elected,
but it is a novel way. Again, it is not just a proportional
system. Where there is a list it requires 50:50 parity. It is
an interesting experiment and is something we should all watch
very carefully.
Let us go back to the Inter-Parliamentary Union study of what
has worked to increase the number of elected women, which has
nothing to do with the proportional system. The study found that
women's chances of getting nominated are higher when their party
has realized that women can be and are an electoral asset.
It found the success higher if the party had incorporated the
gender dimension in taking on a number of steps, be it
establishing a committee on gender equality, or gender focal
point with a mandate to scrutinize the party's policy in that
connection, or re-orienting the party's women's wing so that it
promotes women's vision and it secures support for women within
the party, not just offering women support to the party.
It also found it was important that the parties reviewed rules
and practices for internal elections to ensure equality of access
by women and men to the leadership positions in the party and to
local and national elected mandates.
As an aside, today I was speaking to my colleague, the member
for Scarborough—Rouge River. He said that he just had his
annual meeting of his riding association and the majority of
people on his executive are women. I do not believe it had a
list at that time or that it was done on a proportional basis.
Again, it goes to how the party promotes from within and how the
party values its women.
The study also interestingly found that quotas established by
law did not work. It found that quotas do not permit the
development of a real political space for women. That is
something that we as parties have to deal with ourselves.
Moreover, requiring political parties to have a given percentage
of women candidates failed because there was no sanctions for
failing to meet that type of quota.
What the study found to be most effective was self-imposed
quotas. The self-imposed quotas result from recognition that
women are not only an electoral asset, but that women's full
participation in all aspects of the political process is not only
essential for the good of society but is also an essential
ingredient of democracy.
1525
Witness the leadership of the Prime Minister and his commitment
to ensure the full participation of women in Canada. It was our
present Prime Minister who appointed a woman, Canada's first
chief justice of the supreme court, the Right Hon. Beverley
McLachlin, an appointment that was applauded, not just by women
or by members of this party, but by the legal community across
Canada.
It was our present Prime Minister who also appointed the first
woman commissioner of official languages, Madame Dyane Adam. It
was the Prime Minister who appointed the Right Hon. Adrienne
Clarkson as the Governor General of Canada. Also, since taking
office our Prime Minister has indeed made sure that half of all
Canadians appointed to the Senate are women and one-third of the
Canadians appointed to our judiciary are women as well.
Certainly, this is a leader who leads by example. He shows us
the important role that women play in our society, within our
party, within our major institutions and within our government.
This is a man who understands, and I am proud to be part of that
team.
Last but not least let us not forget, as I said a few weeks ago
in the House, that our Prime Minister made history once again on
January 15, 2001 when he appointed the first woman to occupy the
position of chief government whip, the hon. member for Ottawa
West—Nepean.
Mr. James Moore (Port Moody—Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam,
Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, that was a truly,
legitimate, well thought out and excellent speech as compared to
some of the other speeches we heard today. She spoke clearly and
honestly. I appreciate that very much and so will Canadians who
will be reading this and perhaps viewing this today.
She said the magic word quotas at a certain point in her speech.
I am just curious as to why. Having an all-party parliamentary
committee looking at some aspects of electoral reform, is it
possibly a bridge to the kind of reforms that she is looking at
about opening up a system to have more access for women as she
described? There is no reason why that could not be included in
this exact motion, or that this motion could not be an avenue to
precisely that kind of reform that she is concerned about. That
could be contained entirely within this motion as well. The fact
that she speaks against the motion is unfortunate.
I also notice that, just like some of the previous speakers, she
took the issue of proportional representation and grossly
oversimplified it. She analysed the issue of proportional
representation in the macro level quite well, then tried to apply
it vis-a-vis concerns about having more women candidates and a
more proportional voice in the House for women. That is fair
enough. However, the oversimplification of proportional
representation being just this sort of big balloon that she pops
from the one angle of having more women in this place does not do
this debate justice. It does not do the issue of proportional
representation justice.
There are all sorts of models of proportional representation out
there. I personally do not happen to be a fan of proportional
representation.
I have a couple of questions for the member. She spoke of the
need of political parties, maybe her own, to have a quota system
for candidates, that 50% of candidates should perhaps be women.
Some political parties have that. For example, the NDP in
British Columbia has that in its platform.
I am not sure if she thinks that candidacies for political
parties should be prorated on some other physical
characteristics, for example, income. Should we have candidates
of different brackets of income? Some political parties and
political scientists have seriously advocated that. Should we
have candidates for political parties who represent a wide
variety of people with disabilities? Should we have political
candidates who represent or are prorated on a wide variety of
ages? Different people have advocated that.
If she is willing to bend on this one principle that we ditch
equality and prorated candidates based on physical
characteristics when it comes to gender, is she willing or
interested in doing the same thing with some other
characteristics that people have and people are concerned about?
I come to this Chamber having replaced a Liberal member of
parliament. Prior to that member of parliament, there was a
female candidate who represented my constituency of Port
Moody—Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam. Her name is Sharon Hayes.
She represented my constituency very well. She is a woman of
honour and class.
1530
I asked her what was her greatest frustration as a member of
parliament. She said it was her inability to stand up and say
what was of concern to her constituents, to have tangible
legislative powers at the committee level, to have tangible
powers in the House of Commons and to have real reform
possibilities in this place. She said those powers are not there
because the government, and it is a long entrenched history, does
not allow people to stand up for what they believe and that
affects everybody, men and women.
Could the member please address the issue of quotas and other
aspects? Could she please address the issue of allowing this
place to allow more members to have more power and how that
affects women?
Ms. Sarmite Bulte: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if I have
enough time to answer all the questions but I will certainly try.
First, I looked at the whole issue of proportional
representation in the context of getting more women elected to
the House of Commons or to government. There seems to be this
belief that by having a proportional system we are automatically
going to get more women into the House of Commons. That is too
simplistic.
My whole point in raising this issue is that it is incumbent
upon all parties to encourage women to participate in the
political system. Twenty-one per cent of the House is composed
of women members of all parties, yet women represent 50% of the
population. It is important that we encourage more women to
participate in politics so they have a say.
One of the great and wonderful things about being a Liberal
member of the government, and in being a woman, is that this is a
party that encourages women to participate. It encourages us to
stand up, to be heard and to speak on behalf of our constituents.
I know this is the hon. member's first term, but I hope he
will be able to watch me. As I did in the last term, I stood up
many times and spoke on behalf of my constituents. I watched the
concerns that I brought to the House finally take place in the
form of legislation and policy by the government.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Guimond
(Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré Île-d'Orléans, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, this is my first speech House in the House since
the November 27 general election. I have risen to speak at other
times but not on a motion. I would like to take this opportunity
to thank the voters of
Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans for showing
their confidence in me for the third time.
I would also like to congratulate them for their wise judgment
in being able to separate in their minds the work of an MP and an
issue that was really not pertinent to this election, namely the
whole matter of municipal mergers. As we know, certain of my
colleagues were defeated, unfortunately, because of the Liberal
party's special knack of deflecting attention from real issues.
Having made this point, I am pleased to speak to this motion by
the New Democratic Party calling for the striking of an all party
committee to examine the merits of various models of proportional
representation and other electoral reforms.
I would like to begin by stating that no one can oppose what is
right. I believe that there is some merit to having committees
address certain methods of representation. We would respectfully
submit, however, that what lies behind all this, whether general
elections or voting, is the entire issue of democracy. It is a
matter, above all, of the exercise of democratic rights. It is a
matter of democratic institutions.
Before thinking about creating an all party committee, it would
be a good idea, in my opinion, for the government to focus some
effort of reflection on certain aspects of the electoral process.
1535
Among other things, for the purposes of the debate, I would
like to raise three questions. Let us ask ourselves, and I think
that this concerns those watching these proceedings at the
moment, if democracy can be improved. Is the electoral process,
whether we mean a uninominal single ballot system or a
proportional system, a component of democracy? Third, is
proportional representation a means of improving the democratic
process?
As I do not have enough time allotted me, I will not be able to
answer each question in detail. However, I want to make it clear
in my remarks that we must consider this question a lot more and
in much broader terms than by just looking at the way the
representatives of the people of Canada are chosen.
Among other things, and it would have been useful for the NDP to
mention this, we should look at the whole question of corporate
funding of political party coffers. Today, we note, and I think
the report of the chief electoral officer is clear, contributions
by individuals and we see those of the major corporations, which
contribute hundreds of thousands of dollars to party coffers.
In the case of the six major banks, which had profits of some $9
billion last year, if we looked at their contributions to the
traditional parties, such as the Liberal Party or the Progressive
Conservative Party, or at those of the oil industry lobby, which
contributes happily to the election fund of our colleagues in the
Canadian Alliance, we would see that there is a sort of
two-tiered funding in Canada.
On the one hand, there are the big contributors representing
corporations, to the detriment of mere voters. When I say “mere
voters”, members will of course understand that I do not wish to
minimize the importance of a middle class worker who supports a
particular party and who calls his MP or candidate to tell him:
“I have studied your party's platform. You have been my MP for x
number of years. I have looked at what you are doing, the
stands you take, and I think that you are representing me well.
It is with pleasure that I am sending you a cheque for $20 or
$25”.
I think that members understand very well that my remarks are
not intended to pass the same judgment on all contributors to
campaign funds. I think that there is a difference between a
major bank or a large oil company or multinational that is going
to invest several hundreds of thousands of dollars in a party
seeking office. Naturally they will expect the favour to be
returned.
That is why I say that we have a two tier funding system in
Canada. When one has funded an election campaign such as the one
last fall, when we had people giving us $2, $5, $10, $20 and
sometimes, if we were luckier, $50 or $100, to whom is one
accountable when the election is over? We are accountable to the
ordinary members of the public who funded the election campaign,
and not big companies and powerful lobbies.
Another point that this motion should address is the whole issue
of how election officials are appointed.
1540
The timing is good, because we just finished an electoral
process. The 301 members who are here were elected by the people.
I do not think that any of those who voted in Canada did so with
a loaded gun to their head. Members of parliament were
democratically elected.
We could ask ourselves, however, why voter turnout was so low in
the last election. Why? This reflects a lack of democracy system
that is becoming increasingly more serious.
I am sure that even though you are now the Speaker of the House,
you are back in your riding of Kingston and the Islands on the
weekends. You can see that, unfortunately, a percentage of the
population has totally lost confidence in the political system
and in politicians. This is a realistic conclusion.
We, the 301 elected members of the House of Commons, should
wonder why some people have lost their trust in democracy. Why
are some people telling us “We do not want to be bothered
anymore. You are all the same. It is all the same. You are trying
to fill up your pockets. We see you during election campaigns,
but once you are elected, you ignore us”?
Félix Leclerc lived on Île d'Orléans, which is in my riding. In
one of his songs, he said “On the eve of an election, he'd call
you son.
The day after, of course, he had no clue what your name was”.
This song dates from the 1950s and I think it is as current today
as ever. Why did people not put themselves out to vote on
November 27? Because of cynicism, if not outright disgust, with
politicians. In a democracy, that is cause for alarm.
The candidates for all parties who were defeated and the ones
who won seats, as the 301 of us here in the House of Commons did,
have experienced the process. We had to deal with a
government-appointed electoral machine as far as the returning
officers went, reporting to the Chief Electoral Officer, Mr.
Kingsley.
The objective of the Bloc Quebecois is going to be to ensure
that the government reaches a decision on specific improvements
to the Elections Act and to the electoral process, including the
whole matter of how election workers are appointed.
During the 36th parliament, we had the opportunity to introduce
some amendments in committee, because we believed that the
government was not contributing to democratizing the electoral
process. Far from it. It was our opinion, our firm opinion, in
the Bloc Quebecois, that the government is leaving an
unacceptable degree of power with the governor in council when it
comes to the selection of election workers.
What does governor in council mean for those watching, who are
not familiar with this jargon? It means that the Prime Minister,
with his cabinet and caucus, makes the appointments, and only
rarely are these appointments not partisan. We need only look at
the returning officers in each of our ridings.
When the Liberals are in government, these are the people who
have been very good Liberal organizers, who have done things in
the Liberal association. When the Conservatives were in
government, returning officers were Conservatives. This is known
as the theory of Tweedledum and Tweedledee. Under the Liberals,
they wear red, under the Conservatives, they wear blue.
1545
In any case, some of the members, such as the one for
Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, who changed from blue, to independent, to
red, will perhaps be wearing green on the eve of St. Patrick's
Day on March 17. Who knows?
We in the Bloc Quebecois propose that the appointment of the
Chief Electoral Officer be made by a resolution of the House of
Commons approved by the opposition parties and not just the party
in office. At the moment, the Chief Electoral Officer, Mr.
Kingsley, was appointed by the party in power, after it had
informed the opposition parties.
I think it is worth while looking at what is done elsewhere.
The large number of very competent researchers put at our
disposal could check to see how these appointments are handled in
the Quebec National Assembly, and also in other parliaments and
provincial legislative assemblies.
I want to talk about a legislative assembly I am more familiar
with. In the National Assembly, important appointments require a
two thirds majority and sometimes even a unanimous vote, whether
it is for the position of ombudsman, chief electoral officer or
other senior public positions whose duties require a very high
level of credibility and impartiality. We are far from such an
appointment process.
What we are asking is simple. We want the federal Elections Act
to be transparent and we want to ensure there is no appearance of
conflict of interest.
As I mentioned earlier, the appointments of returning officers,
that is those responsible for the voting process in the ridings,
are partisan appointments. This is why the Bloc Quebecois is
asking that officials and returning officers in the ridings be
appointed following a public, official, open and transparent
competition, as is the case in other jurisdictions. Again, I
would ask our researchers to look at what is being done in the
National Assembly.
This morning, in his reply to the NDP motion, the government
House leader referred to the Lortie commission, formally known as
the Royal Commission on Electoral Reform and Party Financing.
That commission addressed the need for the independence of
election officers. On page 483 of its report, the Lortie
commission reached the following conclusion:
A cornerstone of public confidence in any democratic system of
representative government is an electoral process that is
administered efficiently and an electoral law that is enforced
impartially. Securing public trust requires that the election
officials responsible for administration and enforcement be
independent of the government of the day and not subject to
partisan influence.
Even Canada's chief electoral officer, Jean-Pierre Kingsley, in
his appearance before the Standing Committee on Procedure and
House Affairs, said:
When I go out on the international scene I do not recommend that
the Canadian system be emulated where it comes to the appointment
of returning officers. I clearly indicate, as I do in Canada,
that the appointment of returning officers under the present
system is an anachronism.
All this is a concern. When Canada's chief electoral officer,
Jean-Pierre Kingsley, is in other countries, he recommends that
they not use the Canadian model to appoint returning officers.
But we know that Canada likes to give lessons on democracy in
many countries and to monitor elections in Zimbabwe, in Haiti,
and all over the world. It likes to pass itself off as the
guardian of democracy and a model to follow.
I think that some serious questions are in order when we see
that Elections Canada is disavowing this system, that the chief
electoral officer describes it as an anachronism.
1550
Finally, still on the issue of transparency, there is the major
point of identifying voters. During consideration in the
Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, the Bloc
Quebecois asked that a voter identification process be included
in the legislation. The primary objective is to prevent a voter
from usurping someone else's voting right. Once again, the
government turned down this request.
We might wonder what the government has to hide. Why is it
against transparency? Why is it against a system that would
improve democracy, with one person one vote? What is the
government trying to hide? There is cause for concern.
The Bloc Quebecois was asking for a new appointment process for
at least the chief electoral officer, who is more or less
responsible for the enforcement of the elections act, in order to
reduce the government's control over this area.
We need to ensure that the chief electoral officer is appointed
by at least the majority of the opposition members. If we, in the
opposition, were to take part in the appointment process, then we
would not be able to criticize the government, because we would
have given our support. Members on both sides of the House would
have to agree on the qualifications required of the incumbent.
To conclude, I would like to say that, whatever happens, if we
can make democracy more transparent by dealing with the flaws in
the current system, we might then be able to consider other
options of representation, including proportional representation.
The government still has a lot of work to do before we can
get to that point. I have discussed this issue with some Liberal
members and I know they also expect some improvements to the
electoral system.
Mr. André Harvey (Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
would like to draw attention to the work of my colleague. When
he says that there is always room for improvement, he is right.
In fact, many members of this parliament want to see the
electoral process improved by being made more transparent.
There are two expressions heard very often from members of the
Bloc Quebecois: more transparency, more democracy. We need to
check that we do not have a beam in our eye, before trying to
remove the mote from our neighbour's.
My colleague referred to electoral democracy. It is always a
good thing to stick to the things one knows best. In the last
election, in my own riding, as was reported in the media, the
Bloc Quebecois had trouble accepting a profoundly democratic
process. One of their top members for the past 10, 15, maybe 20
years sold 600 membership cards in order to gain eligibility for
the fine position of official candidate to run against André
Harvey in the last election campaign.
Unfortunately, as members are aware, this was against the most
elementary rules of democracy. a candidate was refused access to
a convention that seemed above-board in everyone's eyes. Those
who claimed in the House of Commons to be profoundly democratic,
highly respectful of the basic rules of citizen participation in
the elector process, got pushed around, shunted aside, by their
leader. The leader of the Bloc Quebecois arrived with his
parliamentary leader, the ineffable member for Roberval, to
announce “You no longer have a spot, so move over”.
1555
As hon. members have seen, two days before the election, the
Bloc Quebecois leader was in my riding, both times proclaiming me
the winner. So sure was he of my victory, perhaps, that he
decided to ignore the elementary rules of democracy and did not
even nominate a candidate.
Before thinking about reforming the entire world, what does my
honourable colleague think of each of the parties in our own
ridings? a young fellow sold 600 memberships, yet he could not
even take part in a convention, because the Bloc Quebecois had
decided that a certain person was to be the candidate.
Mr. Michel Guimond: Mr. Speaker, the member for Chicoutimi—Le
Fjord has really mastered the art of dodging. That would make him
a very good boxer, except that he does not know how to throw a
good punch.
I agree with him that Sylvain Gaudreault was an excellent
candidate. There is no question about that. The best proof that
the member for Chicoutimi—Le Fjord has a natural tendency to
exaggerate is when he says that that person has been a very
active supporter of the Bloc for 15 or 20 years, when we all know
that the Bloc will be celebrating its 10th anniversary on May 15.
According to the member for Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, that man was
so loyal to the Bloc that he was an active supporter of that
party even before it was formed. That is loyalty for you. To
support a party 10 years before it is formed, it takes some
extraordinary powers and a good crystal ball.
I remember a few
things that happened on his new side of the House. We could ask
the people of Markham how they felt about having the former chief
economist of the Bank of Montreal being forced upon them as a
candidate. Were they happy about that? We see these kinds of
things everywhere.
There are some unfortunate events. There may be different ways
of doing things, but that is not the issue. The member for
Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, from 1997 until the 2000 election, did not
base his campaign on the merit of his own candidacy, but rather
on internal divisions, on other parties' problems. Good for him
if he can do that. I wish him a lot of success in his career. He
will probably be appointed Minister of Transport because he is
certainly a good candidate to become a member of the cabinet.
An hon. member: He will build roads.
Mr. Michel Guimond: He will build roads and he will build
bridges, even if there is no river. We will relive the Duplessis
years with the member for Chicoutimi—Le Fjord.
Mr. Serge Marcil (Beauharnois—Salaberry, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I am pleased to speak to this debate on the motion by the NDP on
proportional representation.
I always like to speak following a member of the Bloc in the
House of Commons. It is rather amusing to see how these people
demean democracy. They are very good in speeches, but in
practice, they do not necessarily serve as a model.
They say “Why have voting percentages dropped in the country as
a whole?” This sort of speech, where they say any old thing,
contributes to people's impressions that politicians do not in
fact have much to say.
However, on the plus side of our democracy—I will use the Bloc
Quebecois member's example—who elected our candidate in the
riding of Chicoutimi—Le Fjord? The people did. They decided
André Harvey was the candidate they wanted to represent the
people in that riding.
1600
André Harvey appeared to be the most competent person. So,
democracy as such always finds expression in our system.
Let us return to the NDP motion. The question that perhaps
should be put at the outset is, why are we questioning our
electoral system in Canada? There is always some reason for
doing so. I have never seen a party in government advocate
proportional representation. It is always the opposition parties
that do.
I could refer to Quebec. Between 1970 and 1976, there was a
party called the Parti Quebecois advocating proportional
representation. When it was in office, between 1976 and 1985,
nothing more was said.
In 1985, it was back in the opposition and began talking about
it again.
As we know, this is an issue that was discussed by the Bloc
Quebecois. At one of their conventions, they even considered
including it in their platform. But I think they were told by
their head office in Quebec City to take it off the agenda as
quickly as possible.
Proportional representation has a beginning and an end. But in
fact there should be no limits regarding proportions, because we
are talking about numbers of parties and numbers of votes.
Earlier, my colleague also mentioned the lists of candidates and
the proportion of women on these lists. That could also apply to
ethnic groups. It could apply to the number of women from each
ethnic group. It could apply to languages.
It could apply to a number of elements. Therefore, this concept
should not be restricted to proportional representation.
The fundamental question is: Why are we proposing to establish a
multi-party committee to take another look at the possibility of
establishing a new electoral process whereby anyone in this
place may speak on the behalf of whom? The majority, the
minority, the minorities of the minorities? This is what we must
ask ourselves.
This is basically what it is all about. This is a problem in
just about every house of every legislature. Studies are
conducted, usually after each electoral process.
Commissions are set up, and committees do studies, organize
public hearings, and consult the parties in the House and the
public. After every election, the same conclusion is always
reached here in Canada, and that is that the Canadian electoral
system, our electoral system, is perhaps not perfect, but that
so far—as Churchill said—none better has been found.
The system of proportional representation has also been tried in
other countries, and people went back and changed their system.
Why always go back and keep asking the same question?
Does our electoral system allow all citizens to express their
views in an election? I can compare two electoral laws.
I can compare the electoral laws of Quebec and of Canada. I was
pleasantly surprised to see how Canada's law encouraged
Canadians to vote. If an individual citizen does not wish to
vote in Canada, and does not vote, it is because they have
decided not to do so.
People can register at any time. They can register when they
arrive at the polling station. They have only to show
identification and say “I am a Canadian citizen; I live at such
and such an address; here is my identification” and they are
registered and allowed to vote. This is not the case with
Quebec's electoral law. It is more limiting in this regard.
1605
So, as far as the Elections Act is concerned, I find that our
legislation is a model compared to other democracies around the
world. Let us draw a parallel with the election of the U.S.
president, where there is no popular vote per se. The president
is never elected directly by popular vote, but rather by an
electoral college. In this country, however, the people decide
who is going to represent them in the Quebec National Assembly,
or in the House of Commons in Ottawa. Thus, anyone can vote,
provided he or she is a Canadian citizens with identification.
The Elections Act, therefore, is not restrictive. In fact, it
is extremely permissive.
We are going to refer to those who administer it, and say it is
up to the returning officers in each area, because they are the
ones running the show.
I have had experiences. As far as I know, I represent the
Liberal Party of Canada, but the person in charge of the
election, the returning officer for the riding of
Beauharnois—Salaberry—I do not know what happened on election
day—did not rule in our favour on many points in applying the
legislation.
When someone is appointed to this position, on the face of it,
that person is objective and has only to apply the legislation.
Overall, this is done in a highly satisfactory manner. Often,
when there is a problem, it is with the political organizations
and the riding level, not with the administration of the act
itself.
Why then this idea of proportional representation? I keep
coming back to this point.
Our electoral system allows all citizens in all ridings
throughout the country to voice their opinion on the candidates.
There is no limit on the number of candidates in one riding.
In some ridings, we can find up to 12 names on the list of
candidates and on the ballot. So anyone, if a citizen, is free
to run for election. There is no limit.
We can say today that, obviously, only one person per riding
will get elected. That person is usually chosen by the majority
of the voters in his or her riding. A person is elected when a
majority of voters decide to vote for the candidate of the
political party whose message and agenda appeal to them, and this
is true right across the country. A majority elects a candidate
who is part of a team representing a political party and its
leader. Of course, a political party is made up of many
supporters.
If we look at the results of the last election, we see that the
Liberal Party of Canada was elected in all the provinces.
Liberal candidates were elected in Alberta, Saskatchewan, the
Yukon, the Maritimes, British Columbia, Ontario, Quebec,
everywhere. The question is, and that brings me back to the
motion before the House, why should we once again examine the
merits of proportional representation? What political party is
raising this issue?
To promote democracy and to provide a greater choice to the
people, maybe the political parties should ensure that their
agenda is for all the people of Canada. We are elected by the
people of Canada. That is what it is all about. Is our message
reaching everyone in Canada or is it heard only by the residents
of a particular region?
1610
The results lead to the conclusion that some political
parties are regional whereas others are national.
First and foremost, we must work with the various political
parties to help them develop a message or a platform for all
Canadians. If the majority of Canadians across the country decide
to choose a particular political party, it should be because
their analysis showed that the platform put forward by the
Liberal Party of Canada best responded to their needs. Other
parties may have more specialized platforms that are more
responsive to the needs of a particular region.
Before we think about changing the mechanism or the structure,
or the electoral process, we should reflect on what we stand for
as individuals and also on what each political party stands for.
In Quebec, there are more than 30 members of the Bloc Quebecois.
However, that party's platform does not respond to the needs of
Canadians in general nor is it accepted by them.
To have an even more democratic system in Canada—and I should
not say more democratic—we could say in the Canada Elections Act
that any political party that wants to be active on the national
scene must have a federalist vision and not a separatist vision.
One can see how far democracy is applied in Canada. Even
those parties whose goals oppose the Canadian federation are
allowed to take their place on the Canadian chessboard. Let us
see whether, in other countries, such parties, within a federal
system, are allowed to take up a position on the national
chessboard. It is fairly peculiar to Canada to allow a party,
whatever its origins or its vision, to become part of the
Canadian electoral process.
In this regard, I think we have done enough studies in the past
20 or 25 years. Reports have been prepared and tabled,
softcover reports and others in five volumes.
I think we should first encourage parliamentarians or the
members of political parties to give more thought to what they
represent, to the message they want to get across to the people
of Canada. Let us allow the people, the population as a whole,
to decide.
One of our principles is to let the people in a riding decide on
the candidate to represent them in the House of Commons. They
voted for that person. It must not be a question of mathematics
applied after the fact because a political party obtained a
percentage of votes and must therefore then be allotted a
representative or two. This is not quite how our House should
be organized.
We always say that, when a member speaks in the House, it is on
behalf of the people in his or her riding. This is why as well
ridings are set up with a percentage, an almost identical number
of voters. There are a few exceptions, but on the whole there
are approximately the same number of voters, give or take 10,000
federally, because the ridings are very large compared to the
provincial ones.
When I rise in the House, I represent my fellow citizens, not
just those who voted for me, but all of them, all the voters
whose names were on the voters' lists. Such is the principle
that guides us.
The idea is not to develop new rules that would allow just about
anyone to create a political party and to be here in the House
because he or she represents 1% of the population. That is not
the idea.
Our system works well since there is a rotation. The problem may
be that some political parties in this House convey a message
that does not meet the expectations of all Canadians. That, in
my opinion, is the problem.
The party in office changes the moment another party carries a
message that better reflects the views of the majority of
Canadians.
We must develop national messages and programs, not regional
ones.
1615
In conclusion, a good friend of mine, Michel Bélanger, who is no
longer with us, held prestigious positions in Quebec, both in
the banking industry and in the Quebec government. He was
involved in the referendum. He left a message that his son read
in church, at his funeral, in which he said “What is feasible
is not necessarily desirable”.
I wanted to end on this note, but before I conclude, I would
like to pick up on a few points raised by Bloc Quebecois members
when they spoke about party financing. Quebec has its own
legislation on party financing, but so do other countries.
Canada's system allows political parties to receive donations
from individuals and from corporations, but this should apply to
all political parties.
It makes me smile to hear members of a political party
criticizing this form of financing while they use it indirectly.
During the last election campaign, the Bloc Quebecois invited a
minister of the Government of Quebec, who was bound by the
legislation prohibiting corporations from making campaign
donations, to a fundraising dinner as a guest speaker. Honestly.
They sometimes take a pretty ambiguous stand.
I will conclude by quoting the headline of an article in La
Presse, which read “According to Michel Gauthier, the Bloc
Quebecois must disappear”. This would perhaps be a little more
in line with our electoral process, the representation system we
have developed in the House of Commons.
[English]
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, I congratulate the member on the fact that he
presented his speech without notes from government officials but
regret the fact that his remarks were so redundant and circular
in nature. In particular, it seems like this was a pretty
fatuous effort simply to defend the status quo, which is after
all the driving motive of force of the government.
The member suggested that the opposition parties support the
motion in principle because they fail to garner the support of
most Canadians for their programs. Would the hon. member not
admit that the party of which he is a member has failed to obtain
the support of most Canadians in each of the last three
elections?
In the last two elections respectively, the Liberal Party earned
38% and 41% of the popular vote, which was far short of majority.
Yet, with roughly 60% of Canadians opposing its program, it
managed to completely monopolize political power in the country.
Does he think that is in the best interest of democracy?
Furthermore, does he not think it would be helpful to national
unity if the composition of parliament in some way reflected the
diversity and plurality of political views which we find in the
regions? Would he not think that the 25% of the voters of my
province of Alberta who voted for Liberal candidates should have
a larger representation in this place than they currently have?
Would he not similarly concur that the 1.5 million Ontarians,
the 25% of Ontarians who voted for the Canadian Alliance, should
have more than 1.5% of the representation of this province? Is
he not at all disturbed that roughly half of Ontarians have
virtually no voice in this place in terms of their partisan
choices?
Does he have any regard at all for the fact that Canada is now
the only multiparty advanced democracy in the world that has a
system of voting designed in and for 16th century England when
candidates really were non-partisan candidates elected for the
purpose of representation?
Would he not concur with me that we should be mindful of the
many international precedents in other parliamentary systems,
such as sister Commonwealth countries including Great Britain
which has adopted a form of modified PR for its regional
assemblies in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland?
1620
I wonder if the member could address these points. Does he not
think that a greater reflection of the plurality of views in
different parts of the country would be healthy for democracy?
Does he apologize at all for the fact that his government
shamelessly exercises completely uncontrolled power, even though
it is opposed in elections by 60% of Canadians? Does he think
that every other complex multi-party democracy in the world has
it wrong and Canada alone has it right?
Now that we have managed to drive voter turnout down to 60%,
does he think that is a record of success and vibrancy in our
democracy?
[Translation]
Mr. Serge Marcil: Mr. Speaker, first, if my approach is
circular, it covers all of Canada. It goes beyond a regional
vision.
In the last election, the Liberal Party of Canada won 41% of the
vote, the Canadian Alliance 26%, the Bloc Quebecois, 11%, the
Progressive Conservative Party, 12% and the New Democratic Party,
9%. So the people spoke.
Italy has an electoral process. It has approximately one
government a year. It is therefore always dealing with
coalition governments.
I think a government should not constantly be blocked by silly
games being played in the House because when a political party
goes to the people it presents a platform and makes commitments.
If it is elected with a majority, it has four or five years to
honour those commitments.
Having a majority government gives that party a better chance of
honouring its commitments and following up on its platform. That
means it is also assessed on its platform at the end of its
mandate.
Should we ignore that? The electoral process has evolved both at
the federal and provincial level. I remember when candidates
could run in two or three ridings during a campaign. That has
changed. Now there is one candidate per riding. No candidate can
run in more than one riding.
There was a time when candidates could be both a member of
parliament and the mayor of a municipality at the same time.
Today, the system has been changed so a member of parliament can
no longer hold any other position.
The Canadian electoral and parliamentary systems have evolved
over the centuries as a result of pressure coming from the
people. It is not only because of individuals expressing ideas
here and there. It is often when these ideas are accepted or
assimilated by the general public that our system starts to
change gradually. That is something we can see in the provinces
as well as here, in the House of Commons.
I always come back to the expression “What is feasible is not
necessarily desirable”.
It should be demonstrated that the present system does not meet
the aspirations of Canadians. Canadians should be asked if they
want changes in the parliamentary system because, if they can
vote, they can say what they want.
Mr. Bernard Bigras (Rosemont—Petite-Patrie, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, I listened carefully to my colleague from
Beauharnois—Salaberry who unfortunately has to sit on this
side of the House. That shows how the government chose to treat
him on his arrival here.
He talked about transparency, openness and improvements to our
electoral system and the way we run election campaigns, among
other things.
I would like to know what the member thinks of the approach used
by his own party in the last election campaign, where they
promised to build roads and bridges here and there. What does he
think about that?
1625
Mr. Serge Marcil: Mr. Speaker, the difference between my hon.
colleague and I is that I am not afraid to make commitments and
to fight to uphold them.
I would tell him this: I could ask all the Bloc members here in
this House to show what they have done for their ridings since
1993;. How have the people in their riding benefited from
Canada's economic growth?
Back home that was our priority during the election campaign.
People realized that the economy was growing in Quebec and in
Canada, but that they had yet to reap any benefits in their
riding.
I would go even further than that.
I even challenge them to read all the speeches Daniel Turp, the
Bloc member for Beauharnois—Salaberry, made in this House. I
challenge them to find in all his speeches in his three and a
half years here the number of times he mentioned highway 30, used
the words “riding of Beauharnois—Salaberry”, “of my fellow
citizens”, “at home”. I would like that. This is where the
difference lies.
I will talk about home. And, here in the House of Commons, I
will talk and represent the people of my riding. I will
represent all Quebecers. I will defend their rights. I will
defend Quebec's interests, but I will not represent the
separatists. I will represent all of the people.
I hear them saying all the time in the House and everywhere in
public that they speak on behalf of Quebecers, when they got
barely 36% of the vote compared to the federalists, who got 64%
of the vote. And, in the case of the Quebec provincial election
of 1998, the Liberals in Quebec got 200,000 more votes than the
PQ, and yet they are still saying they speak on behalf of the
majority of Quebecers.
If democracy is to be the subject, then the rules of democracy
must be followed and applied, especially.
[English]
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, for Canadians watching the debate I
would like to indicate that every so often opposition parties
have an opportunity to set the subject for debate during a
particular day. Today the New Democratic Party has set the
subject for debate with the following motion:
That this House strike a special all-party committee to examine
the merits of various models of proportional representation and
other electoral reforms, with a view to recommending reforms that
would combat the increasing regionalization of Canadian politics,
and the declining turnout of Canadians in federal elections.
Others before me have given some statistics about the
regionalization of this place: most government members are from
one province of the country; other parties mostly draw their
members mostly from a particular part of the country; and voter
turnout in the recent election fell somewhat dramatically.
Our party has taken the following position with respect to
electoral reform. We have long argued that the Canadian
political system has a long way to go to achieve the standards of
democracy, openness, representativeness and accountability that
we have set for ourselves as Canadians.
The Canadian Alliance takes the position that elections must be
conducted in a way that best allows the people to express their
will, not only about the person they wish to represent them in
Ottawa but on the kinds of policies they wish their national
government to pursue. We also take the position that another
vital principle is that elections must be held in the most open
and fair manner possible so that Canadians will feel absolute
confidence that there is no manipulation of the vote.
I could go in a number of directions in expanding on those basic
positions of the Canadian Alliance Party, but I should like to
spend some time on the issue of proportional representation, the
one issue of parliamentary reform specifically mentioned in the
New Democratic motion. It is fair to say that the New Democrats
have a particular interest in this kind of reform. If the seats
in the House were allocated strictly by proportional
representation, instead of 13 seats the New Democratic Party
would have 25 seats given the percentage of popular support that
it garnered in the last election.
Members can see why the party feels somewhat cheated in that the
results of the popular vote are not reflected its proportion in
the House of Commons.
1630
Our party struck a task force on democratic reform a little
while ago. It was a very good task force because it had as one
of its members my colleague from Lanark—Carleton. It came down
with a report on a number of issues. I should like to read to
the House and to Canadians watching some of our observations
about the matter of proportional representation.
The principle is that representation in parliament of groups of
like-minded voters is in proportion to the groups' voting
strength. For example, if a party wins 40% of the popular vote
it obtains 40% of the seats. Proportional representation, says
the task force, is sort of like ice cream. It comes in many
flavours and colours and includes everything from the Italian and
Israeli variety, which has some downside, to the mixed member
proportional system used in Germany and New Zealand.
The proportional representation principle ensures fairness to
parties because no party is overcompensated or under-rewarded. In
addition, the PR principle aims at fairness for voters in that
few votes are wasted. Election results under proportional
representation are more truly shaped by the voters and hence
produce governments that are more accurately representative of
citizens.
Voter turnout was highlighted in the New Democratic motion
today. Voter turnout under proportional representation is
between 8% to 11% higher. In addition, when few votes are wasted
voters need not resort to strategic voting. Voters can be true
to their own honest beliefs without the worry that their vote
will be wasted or that they will inadvertently elect the least
desirable party. That is particularly the case in the province of
Quebec, to which the previous speaker alluded.
Under proportional representation the allocation of seats in
parliament would more accurately represent the political
diversity which exists among Canadian voters. No party is likely
to hold a majority of seats. The result would be a fundamental
realignment of power within parliament, breaking down Canadian
practices which have excessively concentrated power in the
executive.
Especially beginning with this parliament there has been much
gnashing of teeth about the centralization of power in the
executive in the Prime Minister's Office. Proportional
representation would be a fair and obvious way to address that.
It is asserted by some, rightly or wrongly, that our country is
run out of the Prime Minister's Office by a handful of mostly
unelected political appointees. The concentration of power leads
to abuse of power. The House of Commons is unable to fulfil its
function, which is to hold the government responsible.
You have already heard, Mr. Speaker, points of order and
questions of privilege in which members have expressed concern
about not being able to do their job, to be heard in this place
or to hold the government to account. Combined with party
discipline such parliamentary majorities permit Canadian prime
ministers to be elected dictators. Those are strong words, but
some members feel there is a strong reason to use them.
A proportional representation voting system would eliminate such
dictatorial tendencies and redress the imbalance of power within
parliament. How is that? It is because no party could enjoy a
majority, or rarely in any event. Proportional representation
would transform parliamentary practice from an adversarial
confrontational style which concentrates power and excludes most
MPs from participating to a practice of inclusion, rule by
consensus and meaningful participation by all.
1635
Mr. Speaker, you would hear a lot fewer howls of outrage and
heckling because under proportional representation members would
have a more meaningful role.
There is strong evidence suggesting that a less adversarial
style of governing, aimed at the long term public good rather
than short term partisan interests, results in a more efficient
government.
The conventional wisdom among political scientists is that the
British Westminister responsible government model delivers strong
government while proportional representation, coalition
consensual governments are weak, was turned on its head by the
findings of political scientist Jankowski who devised a study to
measure economic results and efficiency under different voting
systems.
Jankowski's study encompasses 12 democracies over a 100 year
time span and measured per capita gross domestic product. His
conclusion was that:
The statistical evidence rejects the responsible, or Westminster
political parties argument. Strong, centralized two-party
systems do not promote economic efficiency... Westminster parties
actually reduce economic growth relative to weak, or multi-party
systems.
In addition, there is much circumstantial evidence that Japan,
Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg and the Scandinavian
countries each have educational systems and economies that out
performed or did as well as Canada's throughout the last 40
years.
Most governments cannot resist influencing the economy for
purely political reasons. They inflate the economy before
elections and deflate the economy after elections. I find this
hard to believe, Mr. Speaker, and I am sure you do to, but this
is the finding of the task force.
Academic Edward Tufte studied the frequency of this self-serving
practice and found that all but eight democratic governments
worldwide were guilty. Each of the eight exceptions have a
proportional representation system. The opportunity to
manipulate the economy for short term political gain is less
likely when power is shared.
The task force also concluded that Canada has precisely the
wrong voting system for its social realities and regional
differences. Countries such as Belgium, Switzerland and South
Africa have successfully incorporated differences more numerous
and more pronounced than Canada's. These countries have
proportional representation.
The task force made a number of findings that proportional
representation would be a much better way of dealing with the
national unity issue, and I know other speakers have elaborated
on that.
In summary, the task force found that proportional
representation has the potential to give fair results to parties,
give voters more choice, waste fewer votes, bring greater
political diversity into parliament, build national unity, weaken
the power of the Prime Minister and cabinet, increase the power
of parliament, encourage responsible government, render
government more responsive to changing public demands, deliver a
more efficient government, connect the government to the people,
and foster a political culture of democratic participation.
Would it not be wonderful if we had even half of those changes
in our particular democracy?
Although there are advantages and disadvantages to be weighed
and different approaches to proportional representation, I
believe that the NDP's motion, if we were to support it in the
House and set up a committee to conduct such a study, would serve
the interests of Canadians. It would further the democratic aims
and objectives of our country and be a positive step for us to
take.
1640
In addition, my colleague from Fraser Valley has over the last
several months spoken a great deal about other democratic reforms
we believe the House should pursue: that there be free votes in
the House; that the ethics counsellor become an officer of
parliament rather than an employee of the Prime Minister, which
we debated and voted on in the last few days; that there be a new
standing committee on privacy, access and ethics; that
appointments for officers of parliament be made more
democratically; that there be more restricted use of closure and
time allocation; and that there be more spending accountability
on the part of the government.
There is a lot of scope for us to move forward in our democracy
by examining those measures. I support the motion by the New
Democratic Party. I also urge other members of the House to
support the very sensible step of actively and vigorously
examining these measures, hopefully with a view to reinvigorating
and re-democratizing the institutions that serve Canadians from
coast to coast.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I thank the hon. member for the comments she made about
the motion before the House today. She pointed out the need for
a committee to look at proportional representation, an idea whose
time has come. Most countries have an element of PR in their
systems.
I should like to hear the member comment on other kinds of
electoral and parliamentary reforms that we should perhaps look
at. It seems to me that the Senate must be reformed, elected or
abolished. Very few Canadians, about 5% according to the
polling, actually support the unelected, unaccountable and
undemocratic Senate.
The power of the Prime Minister's Office under the constitution
is much too great in terms of its ability to appoint so many
people without a proper vetting of his appointments by the
appropriate parliamentary committee.
We should also have set dates for elections, throne speeches and
budgets so that we can properly plan those important events. The
power of timing should be taken out of the Prime Minister's hands
and indeed out of the hands of the premiers who enjoy similar
powers under the constitution.
I believe there should be fewer confidence votes and more free
votes in the House so that we can reflect on what is best for the
country, for the common good for Canada and for all their
constituents. It goes without saying that House of Commons
committees should have more power and independence in terms of
initiating and timetabling legislation and in the free vote of
committee chairs.
Those are just some of the things that are important. Added to
that is the motion the other day by the Leader of the Opposition
to have an independent ethics counsellor reporting to the House
of Commons and not to the Prime Minister.
That is the sort of package my party and I look at in terms of
providing a bigger democracy and more democracy in terms of our
electoral and parliamentary systems. In addition, we need more
economic democracy in terms of the power that transnational
corporations take away from ordinary people and from governments
in trade deals and the like. However that is another issue for
another day.
Could the hon. member sum up her vision or her party's vision of
a bigger democracy in terms of our electoral and parliamentary
systems?
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: Mr. Speaker, our party, the Canadian
Alliance, has a complete section in its policy book on democratic
reform. We have a section on economic principles. We have a
section on social principles, and we have a whole section on
democratic governing principles and democratic reform.
Our policy book includes many of the measures the hon. member
just mentioned, such as free votes in the House of Commons, fixed
election dates, looking at proportional representation, and
putting more power in the hands of people to hold their
government and elected members accountable.
As the member mentions, most democratic countries have moved
toward proportional representation. Of thirty-six liberal
democracies with over two million people only three have still
not implemented proportional representation. They are Canada,
the U.S. and Jamaica. Britain, Scotland and Wales brought
proportional representation to the political table and their
discussions began in 1999. Canada is a bit behind the curve in
looking at more democratic ways to arrange its electoral affairs.
1645
One area where I disagree with the member who asked the question
is in the whole area of abolishing the Senate. I think that
would be a big mistake, unless there are some electoral reforms
made in the way the House operates.
The Senate represents regional issues as opposed to the one
person one vote way of representation that this Chamber
represents. If the Senate were abolished there would be
imbalances and regional inequities, which are reflected in this
Chamber where the governing party comes mostly from one province,
the province of Ontario. There would be much less of a voice and
much less vigour in defending and representing the views of other
parts of the country. If that were the only arrangement whereby
issues could be dealt with, there would be a real imbalance in
the way regional interests were handled.
It is because we have a Senate that regional issues have a
fighting chance of being properly considered in the second
chamber. I urge the member to think about the implications of
abolishing the Senate because of the need to reflect more
properly and more truly regional interests.
Mr. John Harvard (Charleswood St. James—Assiniboia,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the New Democratic Party
bringing this proposition before the House today. It would have
a little more credibility if the New Democrats had tried this
kind of system in provinces where they have been in power. As
far as I know the NDP has not tried that.
The Alliance has a lot of time for this proposal. It has a lot
of friends in Alberta and as far as I know Alberta does not use
the PR system. It is still very much using the first past the
post system.
What I have to say is nothing new. I am sure the member for
Calgary—Nose Hill knows that the first past the post system
gives a much better chance of a majority government. From a
majority government there should be more accountability and more
focus on responsibility.
For example, when Bill Clinton came to the presidency in the
White House back in January 1993, in his campaign throughout 1992
he had more or less promised a public health care system across
the United States. We all know what happened to it. It did not
happen mainly because he could not get the support. He could not
strike up a coalition among fellow democrats and republicans.
If Mr. Clinton had been a prime minister with a majority under a
parliamentary system, he could have got that kind of proposal
through. That speaks well of a parliamentary system and it
speaks well of a system that very often produces a majority
government. Would the hon. member for Calgary—Nose Hill like to
comment on that aspect?
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: Mr. Speaker, the member raises a
very important point. His argument, as I understand it, is
essentially that a strong majority government which does not have
to compromise or be diluted with input from other groups is able
to push an agenda through more vigorously and more effectively
than a government that has to be dependent upon the support and
concurrence of more groups than just its own members.
We have to look at how effective that system of government has
been in Canada. In my short time in the House, which has been
just over seven years, I have personally seen the effective input
of members and the opportunities to hold the government
accountable and have a system of checks and balances on what
government wishes to do significantly eroded. Committees now are
simply run as closed shops by a particular department.
The ministers do not really have to answer to committees or
change their legislation because of committees.
1650
If we think dictatorship without a lot of checks and balances is
an effective way to go, perhaps we should go all the way toward a
totalitarian state. Then the governing head of state could do
whatever he or she wishes to do. However, we would argue that
according to democratic convention that is not a desirable way to
run a country.
I would certainly be aghast if the member suggests that we need
to go more in the direction of unchecked majority power and less
on the need to build consensus and support to bring a broad
coalition of thought and support behind a particular initiative.
I reject the member's premise and I think if he is a democrat he
should too.
The Deputy Speaker: Before we resume debate, it is my
duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the
questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as
follows: the hon. member for Cumberland—Colchester, Foreign
Affairs; the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, Health.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
will be splitting my time with the member for
Waterloo—Wellington. Today the opposition motion concerns the
issue of striking an all-party committee to look at various
models of proportional representation and other parliamentary
reforms. It also concludes or hypothesises that it would combat
the increasing regionalization in Canadian politics and the
declining turnout of Canadians in federal elections.
It is an important motion. I listened to much of the debate
today. I listened to the lead speech by the leader of the New
Democratic Party. I was confused why the New Democratic Party
did not want to have a vote in the House on the motion. It seems
strange since one of its strong points is that the matter has not
been voted on in the House since the 1920s.
It is a broad motion. It is a broad issue. It raises some
interesting points that I think members have spoken about quite a
bit.
Proportional representation is probably a concept which is
foreign to Canadians generally because it is not simply defined.
There are various models, as members have noted in their
speeches, such those in Israel, Russia or Germany. However there
is one principle that is characteristic to all of them: Should a
party that receives 20% of the votes in an election also have 20%
of the seats in the parliament as a reflection of that support in
the national vote?
In principle Canadians would probably agree that the
representation within a parliament should be fairly reflective of
their views. However in our parliamentary system votes are not
split riding by riding in the same proportion, which raises some
interesting questions.
Most members have not talked today about the practicality or the
implementation of such a plan and what it would mean to
parliament. I tried to think about it a bit. Today we have 301
members of parliament representing each of the 301
constituencies. There are some 30 million people, which means
that on average we each represent about 100,000 people.
The role of the parliamentarian is extremely important. Most
members would agree that serving the needs of their constituents
is probably one of the most important and relevant activities
discharged by a member of parliament. It is a difficult job
because in most ridings members of parliament do not get elected
with much more than 50% of the vote. Many in fact get elected
with only 40% of the vote.
We have five official parties. In most provinces there are at
least four candidates representing official parties and many
other candidates representing other parties that are not as well
known. It does mean that we do have representation by members
who do not have the majority of votes.
1655
As we go across the country and look at who is first past the
post, in the last election the Liberal government elected 172
members of parliament. That represents a majority government. It
is interesting to consider that although members of parliament
would like to think we are elected substantively on our own merit
they are running on behalf of a party with an election platform
and with a foundation of policy and a philosophy of party
structure that have evolved over long periods of time.
Electors have many reasons for voting for a particular member of
parliament representing a party and a platform. I would think
that a large majority of them would say that they vote for the
party first, maybe for the platform and then for the leader. If
they still have some doubts they might look to the candidate.
Others are so dedicated to and such great fans of their members
of parliament that they would look to them as long as they are
pleased with the representation they give and trust that they
will use their best judgment in all matters before the House.
Some experts have suggested that members of parliament could be
worth as much as 10% of the vote in most ridings.
The system of proportional representation is an attack on the
accountability of parliamentarians in this place. We are elected
to represent constituencies with defined boundaries. We are
elected, not so much on what we promise to do but on what we have
done. Canadians would find that the common bond of association
we have in this place is that we have all been very involved in
our communities through charitable work, volunteer service and
other levels of representation.
Much of it was done on a voluntary basis, much of it without
compensation and much of it because we were involved and love our
communities. We wanted to make them better places for our
families. Those kinds of things distinguish members of
parliament in this place. It is what they have done, not what
they promise to do. There is an integrity issue.
Proportional representation basically says that we want to add
another class of parliamentarian. Many basically say they want a
list of people particular parties would like to have. In the
event they have a greater percentage of the vote and get a
greater percentage of seats, they would like some of the members
on their lists to become members of parliament.
I am not sure how we could pragmatically implement it in Canada.
I am not sure which ridings they would represent. I am not sure
whether constituents would have a place to go to talk to them. I
am not sure whether or not they would be people who could be
elected if they actually ran in an election. I am not sure they
would reflect the quality of people who Canadians would like to
see in their parliament.
It raises some questions. There are some very good people out
there, but can we imagine having another class of parliamentarian
in this place? One would be elected by the constituents of a
riding and the other be slotted in or deemed to be here simply
because the party as a whole somehow got a few more votes.
There are many examples of the pitfalls of proportional
representation. Let us imagine an area in the country where some
group was able to organize itself and to make outlandish promises
that very enticing and alluring but knew it would never have to
deliver because it would never form a government. Could we
consider a party that said it would come in here and eliminate
the GST, reduce income taxes by another 20%, give every Canadian
$500 a year in heating rebates or take care of our families? The
list could go on. A lot of these things would be nice to have
but fiscally imprudent.
Is it possible that a group which could lay out a very alluring
and enticing platform could in fact get 10% of the vote across
Canada? I have a feeling that it is possible.
1700
In fact, what would happen in this bizarre case would be that
10% of the members in this place would not be elected in any
riding but would be here simply because of their party, which had
an imprudent platform, and then they all of a sudden would be
members of parliament in this place. That is what I characterize
as the affront to democracy and the affront to members of
parliament and the accountability and integrity members bring
here.
Mr. Speaker, I do not know what would happen, for instance, if
you were to have 20 more members of parliament in this place.
Would that mean that we would have 20 more seats in here, which I
am not sure would be a great platform to run on, or would it mean
that existing members of parliament would have to represent 20%
more people? There are a lot of implementation problems with
such a thing.
I would just suggest to members that these kinds of ideas,
although they have been operating in other countries, all have
had significant problems. What I do know is that people across
Canada, riding by riding, know, respect and care for their member
of parliament, because I think all members here legitimately do
the best they can to represent the best interests of their
constituents.
Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, I know that the hon. member does do the best he can
for his own constituents and I respect him for that.
However, when we face a situation in which some members, and I
use my own example, are elected with pluralities that are far
lower than an absolute majority of constituents—in my case 38%
of the vote and in the case of one of my colleagues on this side
of the House when he was initially elected less than 30% of the
vote—it is hard to say that we have a system that is genuinely
representative of the well-being of all of the constituents, no
matter how hard that member tries to do his or her best on behalf
of those constituents.
This leads to curious cases. In one riding I know of, in 1993,
a riding moving from the New Democrats to the Reform Party, as it
then was, based on a very small shift in votes in what was
essentially a four way race, there was not a dramatic ideological
shift from left to right among constituents.
There is one way to overcome this that I think might address
some of the concerns the hon. gentleman raised and I wonder if he
would consider this as a possibility. It is to use the model of
the single transferable vote. I do not think that falls outside
the suggestions made by the New Democrats. It has been used
successfully in a number of jurisdictions. Again, I cite my own
experience in Australia watching elections being held on this
basis.
When there is a transferable ballot, one member per district,
voters have the opportunity to cast their ballot for their
preferred choice as candidate and then for a second and third and
so on down the list. If they have someone they particularly
dislike and think is inappropriate, they can mark that person at
the bottom of the list.
The consensus candidate tends to emerge, so that in a very real
sense everybody except those who absolutely put that candidate
last can say that to some degree he or she is being represented
by that member and that member has the obligation to do so.
Indeed, if he or she wants to get elected he or she must respect
that breadth of wishes. A more consensual candidate tends to get
elected.
Would that kind of proposal perhaps accomplish some of the goals
that the hon. member has brought up in some of his concerns?
Mr. Paul Szabo: Mr. Speaker, this is one of the many
models that the NDP is suggesting we consider. There is no
question that we do have colleagues in this place who did not get
50% of the vote—some got as low as 30% and maybe even in the
low 20% range in some parliaments—but that is part of democracy.
I think there are well over 150 official registered parties in
Canada and that is part of our democracy.
It may very well mean that we will not have high numbers, but
generally speaking I believe that the vast majority of members
here have earned sufficient support within their ridings to do a
good job. We will never get 100% of the vote and we should not
be naive enough to think that is what we should be striving for.
What we should be striving for, once elected here, is to do the
best job possible and remember that we are part of a party
system, that we ran on a platform and that when we are elected to
come here we should be supporting what we ran on. We have to do
that, because if we cannot support our party's platform then we
should resign from our own caucus and sit as independents.
1705
There are some fundamental principles here which members tend to
forget sometimes in the heat of debate: that we have been
elected for certain reasons and that when we vote, even as a
group, it is not because of any reason other than it is what we
ran on in front of our constituents.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I want to make the same point the member from Ontario
just made. The member across the way talked about certain MPs
just being slotted in. I would certainly oppose that. It would
be like the present Senate where senators are slotted in.
I think we could look at making as democratic as possible the
single transferable vote, which is what I certainly favour as a
member of the House, or a preferential ballot. We used that, by
the way, in Saskatchewan for the NDP leadership vote about a
month ago where there were seven candidates. People could mail
in a ballot and choose their candidate among one, two, three,
four, five, six or seven. A real consensus candidate emerged
from the process.
We can use that as well in terms of PR. For example, in
Saskatchewan right now we have 14 MPs. We could have seven
ridings and have seven people elected riding by riding. We could
have the other seven elected from democratically chosen lists and
allow the voters to vote in terms of a single transferable
ballot. I think that would be real democracy. I wonder if the
member across the way would be open to that kind of idea.
Mr. Paul Szabo: Mr. Speaker, I listened to the member's
speech this morning as well. I understand that there are a
number of models. However, I think the experience that Canadians
have had over history has shown that we have a stable system of
parliament. In fact, our first past the post system tends to
produce majority governments, which allows governments to
implement the platforms they run on in elections. That is a very
important part of it.
As well, I noted in the NDP leader's speech this morning that
she tends to think this would improve regional representation,
but what the member described to me will not increase regional
representation, simply because in the case of a party such as his
own there are not many spaces open considering the popular
support that his party received.
Mr. Lynn Myers (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General
of Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is a great honour to speak
to this motion today.
I want to begin my comments by saying that our country, Canada,
has over time developed a very strong and good electoral system.
I think it is fair to say, too, that people across the country
have supported it and have cast their ballots accordingly. I
think it is democratic in the sense that it underscores the very
foundations and values of Canadians, wherever they are in this
country.
I also want to point out that it seems to me that other
countries have emulated Canada when it comes to our electoral
system and that is something worth noting. It is also worth
noting that with our electoral system as it is we have a kind of
built in flexibility which enables us, then, to do the kinds of
things that are necessary, especially in a country as growing and
dynamic as Canada. That too is worthy of note.
I find it a little bit ironic that the New Democratic Party has
this motion before us today. After all, 91.5% of Canadians voted
against it. Under proportional representation it would fall from
being the fourth party to the fifth party. It has no members in
the territories. It has no members in a number of provinces. It
had a chance under a number of provincial governments, quite
frankly, to implement proportional representation and it did not
choose to do it. Typical New Democrats: always talk a good line
but never quite follow through.
I also find it a bit interesting that when it comes to
regionalization, New Democrats are going down this path as well.
I find it a little hard to take, but after all, they are like
that. They like to kind of tinker around and make grandiose,
grandstanding kinds of comments, but when it comes time to
deliver they cannot quite seem to do it.
By the way, I should add that in the New Democrats' electoral
platform there were maybe one or two lines about proportional
representation, so yet again there they go. They did not really
give it the prominence that they pretend to give it today.
What I want to say is this: we have over time had our critics
on our electoral system, but I think it is important to note that
at the end of the day it has been a very good system which has
benefited Canada. While all the systems fall under the heading
of proportional representation in other parts of the world that
have it, it seems to me that they vary enormously as a result and
there are different approaches used as a result.
1710
Let me just outline a couple of them. First is the preferential
ballot, whereby voters rank candidates in order of preference
with votes for low-polling candidates being transferred to
remaining candidates according to voter preference. Another
point is the pure proportional representation system, where the
entire country is treated as one constituency and members are
selected from party lists based on the percentage of the popular
vote received by the parties. Finally, there is another system,
a mixed system, whereby some members are chosen on the basis of
first past the post contests while others are chosen from party
lists.
As we can see, this is a complex issue and a number of
alternatives are presented. I might point out that there are
advantages and disadvantages to each.
I hear the members of the Alliance heckling me. It is
interesting that they would heckle. As we start into electoral
reform, remember their referendum question where they were going
to have 3% of the voters across Canada triggering a referendum?
Can we imagine the ludicrousness of that kind of situation, where
3% could change a motion on major issues? That is how out of
touch those members are with what Canada wants and what people
see.
What if electoral reform went down the path of asking, for
example, whether or not parties should release the names of
donors who donated to political leadership campaigns? We did
that. Why does that party not do it? Or what about making
payments to former MPs? Was it not $50,000 for Jim Hart's seat
so the leader of the loyal opposition—yes, loyal, let us think
about that for a while—could take his seat? Why do we not
examine that under electoral reform? What about checking out and
auditing the Gaspé in terms of people on the list? Remember that
boondoggle in the Gaspé when those people, those reformed
Alliance people opposite—
Mr. James Moore: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
I believe the member for Waterloo—Wellington is steering
dramatically far from the issue at hand, which is proportional
representation. He is talking about all sorts of issues that
have absolutely nothing to do with the motion at hand. Frankly I
think it is not showing the due respect that the motion deserves.
[Translation]
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Harvey): I would ask members to limit
their comments, as much as possible, to the subject matter of the
motion now before the House.
[English]
Mr. Lynn Myers: Mr. Speaker, I am dealing with electoral
reform because the motion actually calls for a review, an all
party committee to examine various models.
I just wanted to say that the committee, in its wisdom, could
broaden into looking at those kinds of issues. This is part of
the give and take of debate.
The committee could take a look at whether or not it is
legitimate, for example, for a leader to spend $800,000 of
taxpayers' money and then have Mr. Britton, a lawyer in the firm
of Bennett Jones, turn around and cut a cheque for $70,000. That
is real electoral reform. Perhaps the spotlight should turn on
the Alliance people.
I note with great interest that the motion deals with
regionalization of Canadian politics. What better way to try to
regionalize than the member for Okanagan—Shuswap and the member
for Wild Rose going to the separatist meetings in Alberta? Boy,
there is division for you. There is a chance and an opportunity
for people to sew the seeds of regionalism, in this case, western
separation.
Did the member who is the leader sanction that? He certainly
did not rebuke them and quite frankly I think he should have. He
should have rapped their knuckles in the interest, as they point
out, of preventing regionalization of Canadian politics.
It seems to me, as is the case with their national counsellor
who went to the east and said that all easterners are lazy and
always want a handout and other things, that the Alliance Party
is trying to have it both ways as usual. It is unbelievable to
hear about the kinds of things it is doing.
1715
Let me get back to the point at hand with respect to what we are
dealing with.
Listen to them. They can always give it out but they cannot
take it, those holier than thou sitting over there. It just goes
back to the whole point about the fact that they will talk as
they did last week about ethics, morality and all the kinds of
things that they claim the moral high ground. They preach with
their evangelical zeal and on they go.
However, the leader spent $800,000 of taxpayers' money on a
court case that he could have settled for $60,000, and $70,000
was kicked back by way of Mr. Britton of Bennett Jones. It is
outrageous.
Mr. Chuck Strahl: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
During the rhetorical flights of fancy from the member opposite,
I noticed he was actually in his own seat, which is unusual.
Normally he would be behind a minister looking for a free camera
shot.
Once I heard him refer specifically to this bill and that is
unusual for him because normally he is completely irrelevant. I
wonder if he could just once keep with the topic at hand and
perhaps finish the debate off in style, for a change. It would
be unusual for him but I wonder if he could do that.
Mr. Lynn Myers: Mr. Speaker, I am happy to continue and
speak from this great seat her as the member for
Waterloo—Wellington.
The people who are irrelevant are those Alliance people, those
people who are hypocrites, those people who, with great
duplicity, end up always taking the moral high ground. However,
when it is really down and dirty, the Leader of the Opposition is
there taking a $70,000 handout from Britton, the man who is part
of the law firm of Bennett Jones.
Hon. Lorne Nystrom: I rise on a point of order. Mr.
Speaker, no wonder this institution is being degraded. There is
irrelevancy, there is a motion before the House, the speaker must
speak to the motion.
The Deputy Speaker: I am sorry to tell everyone on either
side of the House but the time has lapsed and we are now into
questions and comments. I am sure the questions will be very
relevant.
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, I will assuredly give my friend from
Regina—Qu'Appelle time because he is the mover of this motion.
I just want to recognize his determined advocacy of electoral
reform and a principled advocacy it is.
I had the pleasure of speaking with his former leader, Mr.
Broadbent, about this issue and agreed that, in principle, we
could join in common cause from left to right across the
political spectrum to advance the cause of democracy in the
country. I am disappointed but not the least bit surprised, and
nor were any of my colleagues opposite, with the kind of partisan
rant which just came forward from the member opposite, who has a
reputation about his seating patterns, as well as other things. I
see the Minister of Finance has almost put that member in a
camera angle. It is amazing, he just attracts cabinet ministers.
Does the member care at all about the fact that Canadian
electoral turnout has gone down to 60%, the lowest percentage in
history? Does he care at all that Canada is now the only complex
multiparty democracy in the developed world which still relies on
a 15th century voting system designed for medieval England? Does
he care at all that 60% of Canadians in the last election voted
against his government's program and yet the government holds
100% of the political power?
Does he have the capacity for one moment to transcend
partisanship and his government's defence of the status quo to
suggest that yes, perhaps this place, the voice of the people,
the place where we speak, parliament, should consider an
electoral system which allows the plurality and diversity of
political views to be properly reflected in this, the people's
House?
Mr. Lynn Myers: Mr. Speaker, it is so nice to see the
member oppose in the Chamber for a change. He has been most
invisible recently. I guess he is feeling the heat a little out
of that disastrous election campaign his party ran. In fact, he
was in my city, Kitchener, when he made that big brouhaha about
having two tier health care. It went all downhill from there.
I can say this, I care passionately about Canada.
Despite what the presumptive finance critic opposite, who has
never met a payroll in his life, would tell us, we on the
government side have a very dynamic electoral system in place.
We will stand by a system that makes sure that Canadians,
wherever they live in this great country of ours, are well
served.
1720
We on the government side will continue to present that kind of
good peace, order and good government which is the very
foundation of this country. Why? It is because of the values
Canadians cherish very much. We will ensure those values, unlike
the Alliance people who flip and flop and say one thing and do
another. They say things with great hypocrisy and duplicity.
They are all over the map. Their leader gets $70,000. They are
the holier than thou. They just cannot seem to get their act
together. It is unfortunate, but Canadians have ruled and they
have spoken very loudly.
Mr. Pat Martin (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I too
want to compliment the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle who has
dedicated much of his career to the topic of electoral reform. At
the end of the last parliament he saw fit to bring forward a
private member's bill which stimulated a great deal of interest
and debate. He is now using our opposition day motion to debate
this same important issue of electoral reform in Canada.
Why reform our electoral system? Our system is outdated and
needs to be amended. It needs to be put back into a condition
where it actually works for Canadians. It has to be a living
institution. As our country evolves and grows our system needs
change. We have been saddled with an outdated system that is not
serving our needs. Low voter turnout, which speaker after
speaker has pointed to, is the most graphic illustration of this.
In 1968, 80% of Canadians voted. There are those who argue that
during good times people do not bother going to the polls. The
economy was fairly buoyant in 1968 as well and 80% of Canadians
chose to exercise their franchise and cast a ballot.
In the most recent election about 60% of Canadians voted. Sixty
percent of those who were registered voted. Fifty percent of all
eligible voters actually voted. This is a horrific record. It
is as bad a level of disinterest as in the United States. That
is what we see with our partners to the south.
Many people have given up on the idea that the electoral process
is some way they can get satisfaction. Many people are
completely disillusioned with the electoral process that they do
not bother to exercise their right to vote. That is a serious
problem. There is something fundamentally wrong with the state
of democracy today.
We have heard the full range of debate from the sublime to the
ridiculous today. The most poignant thing about the debate that
I heard, especially from the government benches, is their
complete unwillingness to revisit the issue in any kind of a
serious way. It makes us wonder what they are afraid of. Why
would they not embrace the idea of being able to reach more
Canadians and have more Canadians play an active role in the
political system?
One of the most interesting points raised during this debate was
made by the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle in his argument, and an
argument that I accept, that some form of PR would help foster a
greater sense of national unity. What could be of more interest
to the people in this room than some way to bring the country
closer together?
The logic he used was that under PR to win seats in a federal
election the political parties would have to run on platforms
that would appeal to citizens right across the country. In other
words, if my only interest was representing the interests of my
home province of Manitoba, I might be able to get elected on that
basis by being a booster for the home team. Under PR I would
also have to have a platform and a campaign that addressed the
issues in various regions. One would think that that in itself
would be a good enough reason to seriously visit the idea of
introducing proportional representation.
The way things are now, unity is not served because there really
are no truly national parties. We take care of our base of
strength. The Liberal Party takes very good care of the province
of Ontario. The Bloc Quebecois does an admirable job
representing the interests of the province of Quebec. The
Albertans have their party.
1725
It would seem that if we are serious about threading the country
together with some real vision of national unity, one of the
elements has to be reforming our electoral system. I believe the
PR system is the way we can do that.
The reason many people are not voting today is because they are
concerned that their vote is wasted. Under PR every vote weighs
equally. Even if one is an NDPer living in downtown Edmonton, a
person could cast a ballot for the party of choice knowing it
would do some good. It would not be a throwaway vote. That
makes some sense in the interest of fairness and in the interest
of balance.
If a person is a reformer in Newfoundland, the person could have
the confidence that his or her vote would not be meaningless.
That is a positive thing. I do not know what the resistance was
to this idea from the opposite benches. I find it frustrating
that they would not at least seriously entertain the idea.
We are also seeing part of the cynicism about Canadian politics.
Low voter turnout stems from the messaging that is going on in
federal elections today. There is a growing awareness. The
pollsters, the Hill and Knowltons of the world et cetera, will
advise political parties that the lowest 15% or 20% income
bracket do not really vote. Why would someone bother addressing
messages to them?
In other words, the people who actually need representation the
most and arguably need the services of strong advocacy in the
House of Commons, do not bother to vote at all. Frankly, at the
other end of the political spectrum, we all know how the top 15%
or 20% of the economic scale vote. There is no point in
addressing our messages to them either.
All the messaging goes to the middle class band. It is a
homogenizing of the political messaging because those are the
people we have to reach. Even there voter turnout is tragically
poor.
If we are going to move forward as a country we have to engage
more of the population. The most basic way we can do that is by
having them take part in the political process, which is
obviously a gift in a free society. To not exercise their right
to vote is an absolute shame as there are places in the world
that do not have those rights and freedoms.
I have nothing but admiration for the member for
Regina—Qu'Appelle for his dedication to this cause. He is doing
a great service to all Canadians to try and move this issue
forward. If we could have a proper and an honest debate, nobody
could guess what the outcome would be. However, the motion does
not try to dictate any particular solutions. It only calls for
the creation of a committee to review the subject.
Who knows what kind of positive outcomes we could have if we
embraced this idea in a fair and honest way and visited it
without all the rancour and some of the parry and thrust that we
have heard today. That dialogue deviated so far away from the
actual issue at hand that it did a disservice to all of those
people listening and the people who would benefit very much if
Canada adopted something along those lines of PR.
The other frustrating thing is that the people who need the
representation the most are now the least likely to vote. Those
are the people that we have an obligation to address, to reach
out to, to engage and to ask them their opinion. Under this
system of PR their opinion would weigh just as much as our
opinion.
In closing, we all know that something is fundamentally wrong
with the democratic process and the state of democracy in Canada
today when only 50% of all eligible voters bother to come to the
polls. We could give them a new confidence if we seriously
embraced the idea of proportional representation and increased
that to an acceptable level of engagement.
The Deputy Speaker: It being 5.30 p.m., it is my duty to
inform the House that proceedings on the motion have expired.
[Translation]
ALLOTTED DAY—FREE TRADE AREA OF THE AMERICAS
The House resumed from February 15 consideration of the motion
and of the amendment.
The Deputy Speaker: Pursuant to order adopted on Thursday,
February 15, the House will now proceed to the taking of the
deferred divisions pertaining to the business of supply.
Call in the members.
1750
Before the taking of the vote:
The Deputy Speaker: The question is on the amendment.
[English]
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, I believe you would
find unanimous consent that the amendment now before the House be
deemed defeated on division.
The Deputy Speaker: The proposition of the chief
government whip is that the amendment be defeated on division. Is
it agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Amendment negatived)
[Translation]
The Deputy Speaker: The next question is on the main motion. Is
it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
The Deputy Speaker: All those in favour of the motion will
please say yea.
Some hon. members: Yea.
The Deputy Speaker: All those opposed will please say nay.
Some hon. members: Nay.
The Deputy Speaker: In my opinion the yeas have it.
And more than five members having risen:
1800
(The House divided on the motion, which was negatived on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Anders
| Anderson
(Cypress Hills – Grasslands)
|
Asselin
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
| Bergeron
|
Bigras
| Blaikie
| Borotsik
| Bourgeois
|
Breitkreuz
| Brien
| Brison
| Burton
|
Cadman
| Cardin
| Casey
| Casson
|
Chatters
| Clark
| Comartin
| Crête
|
Dalphond - Guiral
| Day
| Desrochers
| Doyle
|
Dubé
| Duceppe
| Duncan
| Elley
|
Epp
| Fitzpatrick
| Gagnon
(Champlain)
| Gagnon
(Québec)
|
Gallant
| Gauthier
| Girard - Bujold
| Godin
|
Goldring
| Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Guay
|
Guimond
| Hearn
| Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
|
Hilstrom
| Hinton
| Jaffer
| Johnston
|
Kenney
(Calgary Southeast)
| Laframboise
| Lalonde
| Lanctôt
|
Lebel
| Lill
| Loubier
| Lunn
(Saanich – Gulf Islands)
|
Lunney
(Nanaimo – Alberni)
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Manning
| Marceau
|
Mark
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Mayfield
| McDonough
|
McNally
| Ménard
| Meredith
| Merrifield
|
Mills
(Red Deer)
| Moore
| Nystrom
| Obhrai
|
Pallister
| Pankiw
| Paquette
| Penson
|
Perron
| Peschisolido
| Picard
(Drummond)
| Plamondon
|
Proctor
| Rajotte
| Reid
(Lanark – Carleton)
| Reynolds
|
Ritz
| Robinson
| Roy
| Sauvageau
|
Schmidt
| Skelton
| Solberg
| Sorenson
|
Spencer
| St - Hilaire
| Stinson
| Stoffer
|
Strahl
| Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Toews
|
Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean – Saguenay)
| Tremblay
(Rimouski - Neigette - et - la Mitis)
| Vellacott
| Venne
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| Wayne
| White
(North Vancouver)
| Williams
|
Yelich – 113
|
NAYS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Allard
| Anderson
(Victoria)
|
Assad
| Augustine
| Bagnell
| Baker
|
Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bellemare
| Bennett
|
Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Binet
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Boudria
| Brown
|
Bryden
| Bulte
| Caccia
| Calder
|
Cannis
| Caplan
| Carignan
| Carroll
|
Castonguay
| Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
|
Charbonneau
| Coderre
| Collenette
| Comuzzi
|
Copps
| Cotler
| Cullen
| Cuzner
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Dromisky
|
Drouin
| Duhamel
| Duplain
| Easter
|
Eggleton
| Eyking
| Farrah
| Finlay
|
Folco
| Fontana
| Gagliano
| Gallaway
|
Godfrey
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
| Grose
|
Guarnieri
| Harb
| Harvard
| Harvey
|
Hubbard
| Ianno
| Jackson
| Jennings
|
Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
| Keyes
| Knutson
|
Laliberte
| LeBlanc
| Lee
| Leung
|
Lincoln
| Longfield
| MacAulay
| Macklin
|
Mahoney
| Malhi
| Maloney
| Manley
|
Marcil
| Marleau
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Matthews
|
McCallum
| McCormick
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
|
McLellan
| McTeague
| Mills
(Toronto – Danforth)
| Minna
|
Mitchell
| Murphy
| Myers
| Nault
|
Neville
| O'Brien
(Labrador)
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
|
Owen
| Paradis
| Patry
| Peric
|
Peterson
| Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
|
Pillitteri
| Price
| Proulx
| Provenzano
|
Redman
| Reed
(Halton)
| Richardson
| Robillard
|
Saada
| Savoy
| Scherrer
| Scott
|
Serré
| Sgro
| Shepherd
| Speller
|
St. Denis
| St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Steckle
|
Stewart
| Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
(Saint - Lambert)
|
Tirabassi
| Tobin
| Tonks
| Torsney
|
Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
| Wappel
|
Whelan
| Wilfert
| Wood – 147
|
PAIRED
Members
Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Fry
| Regan
| Rocheleau
|
The Deputy Speaker: I declare the motion lost.
* * *
[English]
CANADA FOUNDATION FOR SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT TECHNOLOGY ACT
The House resumed from February 19 consideration of the motion
that Bill C-4, an act to establish a foundation to fund
sustainable development technology, be read the second time and
referred to a committee.
The Deputy Speaker: The House will now proceed to the
taking of the deferred recorded division on the motion at the
second reading stage of Bill C-4. The question is on the motion.
Ms. Marlene Catterall: Mr. Speaker, if the House would
agree, I would propose that you seek unanimous consent that members
who voted on the previous motion be recorded as having voted on
the motion now before the House with the Liberal members voting
in favour.
The Deputy Speaker: Does the House give its consent to
proceed in such a fashion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Mr. John Reynolds: Mr. Speaker, the Canadian Alliance
members present vote no to the motion.
[Translation]
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: Mr. Speaker, members of the Bloc
Quebecois will vote against this motion.
Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Speaker, members of the New Democratic Party
will vote against this motion.
Mr. Rick Borotsik: Mr. Speaker, members of the Progressive
Conservative Party will vote in favour of this motion.
[English]
(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the
following division:)
YEAS
Members
Adams
| Alcock
| Allard
| Anderson
(Victoria)
|
Assad
| Augustine
| Bagnell
| Baker
|
Beaumier
| Bélair
| Bellemare
| Bennett
|
Bertrand
| Bevilacqua
| Binet
| Blondin - Andrew
|
Bonin
| Bonwick
| Borotsik
| Boudria
|
Brison
| Brown
| Bryden
| Bulte
|
Caccia
| Calder
| Cannis
| Caplan
|
Carignan
| Carroll
| Casey
| Castonguay
|
Catterall
| Cauchon
| Chamberlain
| Charbonneau
|
Clark
| Coderre
| Collenette
| Comuzzi
|
Copps
| Cotler
| Cullen
| Cuzner
|
DeVillers
| Dhaliwal
| Dion
| Doyle
|
Dromisky
| Drouin
| Duhamel
| Duplain
|
Easter
| Eggleton
| Eyking
| Farrah
|
Finlay
| Folco
| Fontana
| Gagliano
|
Gallaway
| Godfrey
| Graham
| Gray
(Windsor West)
|
Grose
| Guarnieri
| Harb
| Harvard
|
Harvey
| Hearn
| Hubbard
| Ianno
|
Jackson
| Jennings
| Jordan
| Karetak - Lindell
|
Keyes
| Knutson
| Laliberte
| LeBlanc
|
Lee
| Leung
| Lincoln
| Longfield
|
MacAulay
| MacKay
(Pictou – Antigonish – Guysborough)
| Macklin
| Mahoney
|
Malhi
| Maloney
| Manley
| Marcil
|
Marleau
| Martin
(LaSalle – Émard)
| Matthews
| McCallum
|
McCormick
| McGuire
| McKay
(Scarborough East)
| McLellan
|
McTeague
| Mills
(Toronto – Danforth)
| Minna
| Mitchell
|
Murphy
| Myers
| Nault
| Neville
|
O'Brien
(Labrador)
| O'Brien
(London – Fanshawe)
| O'Reilly
| Owen
|
Paradis
| Patry
| Peric
| Peterson
|
Pettigrew
| Phinney
| Pickard
(Chatham – Kent Essex)
| Pillitteri
|
Price
| Proulx
| Provenzano
| Redman
|
Reed
(Halton)
| Richardson
| Robillard
| Saada
|
Savoy
| Scherrer
| Scott
| Serré
|
Sgro
| Shepherd
| Speller
| St. Denis
|
St - Jacques
| St - Julien
| Steckle
| Stewart
|
Szabo
| Telegdi
| Thibeault
(Saint - Lambert)
| Thompson
(New Brunswick Southwest)
|
Tirabassi
| Tobin
| Tonks
| Torsney
|
Ur
| Valeri
| Vanclief
| Wappel
|
Wayne
| Whelan
| Wilfert
| Wood – 156
|
NAYS
Members
Abbott
| Ablonczy
| Anders
| Anderson
(Cypress Hills – Grasslands)
|
Asselin
| Bailey
| Bellehumeur
| Bergeron
|
Bigras
| Blaikie
| Bourgeois
| Breitkreuz
|
Brien
| Burton
| Cadman
| Cardin
|
Casson
| Chatters
| Comartin
| Crête
|
Dalphond - Guiral
| Day
| Desrochers
| Dubé
|
Duceppe
| Duncan
| Elley
| Epp
|
Fitzpatrick
| Gagnon
(Champlain)
| Gagnon
(Québec)
| Gallant
|
Gauthier
| Girard - Bujold
| Godin
| Goldring
|
Grewal
| Grey
(Edmonton North)
| Guay
| Guimond
|
Hill
(Macleod)
| Hill
(Prince George – Peace River)
| Hilstrom
| Hinton
|
Jaffer
| Johnston
| Kenney
(Calgary Southeast)
| Laframboise
|
Lalonde
| Lanctôt
| Lebel
| Lill
|
Loubier
| Lunn
(Saanich – Gulf Islands)
| Lunney
(Nanaimo – Alberni)
| Manning
|
Marceau
| Mark
| Martin
(Winnipeg Centre)
| Mayfield
|
McDonough
| McNally
| Ménard
| Meredith
|
Merrifield
| Mills
(Red Deer)
| Moore
| Nystrom
|
Obhrai
| Pallister
| Pankiw
| Paquette
|
Penson
| Perron
| Peschisolido
| Picard
(Drummond)
|
Plamondon
| Proctor
| Rajotte
| Reid
(Lanark – Carleton)
|
Reynolds
| Ritz
| Robinson
| Roy
|
Sauvageau
| Schmidt
| Skelton
| Solberg
|
Sorenson
| Spencer
| St - Hilaire
| Stinson
|
Stoffer
| Strahl
| Thompson
(Wild Rose)
| Toews
|
Tremblay
(Lac - Saint - Jean – Saguenay)
| Tremblay
(Rimouski - Neigette - et - la Mitis)
| Vellacott
| Venne
|
Wasylycia - Leis
| White
(North Vancouver)
| Williams
| Yelich – 104
|
PAIRED
Members
Bachand
(Saint - Jean)
| Fry
| Regan
| Rocheleau
|
The Deputy Speaker: I declare the motion carried.
Accordingly, the bill stands referred to the Standing Committee
on Aboriginal Affairs, Northern Development and Natural
Resources.
(Bill read the second time and referred to a committee)
* * *
WAYS AND MEANS
EXCISE TAX ACT
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, there has been consultation
among House leaders and I understand that there would be
unanimous consent to deem that a motion to concur in the notice
of ways and means tabled earlier this day by the Secretary of
State for International Financial Institutions to have been duly
proposed and adopted on division.
1805
The Deputy Speaker: Does the government House leader have
consent to propose the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Deputy Speaker: The House has heard the terms of the
motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Motion agreed to)
The Deputy Speaker: It being 6.06 p.m. the House will now
proceed to the consideration of private members' business as
listed on today's order paper.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[English]
CANADIAN SIKHS
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP) moved:
That this
House recognize the importance of April 13 to all Sikhs and
the contributions that Canadian Sikhs have made to our
country, and that this House also recognize the importance
of the five K's: the KIRPAN—a sword representing
indomitable spirit; KES—unshorn hair, representing a
simple life, saintliness and devotion to God; KARA—a steel
bangle worn as a sign of the eternity of God; KANGA—a
wooden comb worn to represent a clean mind and body; and
KACHA—short breeches, representing hygienic living.
He said: Mr. Speaker, it is a great pleasure for me today to
bring this motion before the House for debate and hopefully even
for passage at the end of the hour.
The motion that is before the House today is a motion that was
originally passed by the Manitoba legislature on July 13, 1999
with the support of all parties in that house. It was with the
intention or the hope that this motion might also pass this House
that I brought it forward at the request of the Sikh community.
It was with that in mind that I sought to have this motion made
votable when I appeared before the subcommittee on private
members' business. However, since it was not chosen as votable,
now we are only debating it. I am still hopeful that perhaps we
might find our way to passing the motion.
There are three dimensions to the motion. The first one is
recognizing the importance of April 13, the festival of
Vaisakhi, which is the anniversary of the creation of the
Khalsa.
The second dimension is recognizing the contribution of Canadian
Sikhs to Canada.
The third dimension is recognizing the importance of the five
K's: the kirpan, the kes, the kara, the
kanga and the kacha to the Sikh community.
1810
I begin with April 13, the anniversary of the day in 1699 when
Sikhism's last guru, Guru Gobind Singh created the brotherhood of
the Khalsa. The brotherhood was built on the sense of community
that Sikhism's first guru, Guru Nanak, established much earlier
when he started among other things the tradition of the community
kitchen, or the Langar which continues to this day. The Langar
is such a great practical symbol of the egalitarian spirit that
permeates the Sikh tradition. It is a spirit of equality that
extends to men and women and which distinguished Sikhism from the
values of the caste system long before it became popular to do so
in any modern sense of the word.
The story of Sikhs in Canada, according to a book I am reading
about Canadian Sikhs and written by Narindar Singh, probably goes
back to Queen Victoria's diamond jubilee in 1897 when Sikh
regiments passed through Canada on their way to London. They
passed through again in 1902 for the coronation of Edward VII.
By 1903 Sikh immigration to Canada had begun. Between 1903 and
1908 nearly 6,000 Sikhs entered Canada, most of them travelling
directly from their village in the Punjab to British Columbia.
Unfortunately, their arrival in B.C. was greeted with opposition
in many quarters. There were Vancouver members of parliament and
the mayor of Vancouver who called for a ban on further
immigration of Sikhs.
In April 1907 Sikhs were denied the right to vote in B.C. and
laws were passed prohibiting Asians from entering the
professions, serving on juries, obtaining government contracts,
and buying property in some parts of Vancouver. The recently
arrived Sikhs were included in this category and therefore these
laws also affected them, although they were not directed only at
them.
To make a long story short, Sikhs were eventually prevented from
entering Canada by virtue of the continuous journey mechanism
that flowed from the then deputy minister of labour, a man by the
name of William Lyon Mackenzie King. The consequence of this was
that Sikh immigration did not resume until the late 1940s with
the exception of the wives and children of people who were
already here.
Sikhs were employed in many jobs, but they were employed mainly
in the sawmills of British Columbia. An almost exclusively male
community until 1920, they maintained their sense of community
and tradition by living together, supporting each other and
gathering in their gurdwaras or temples. I am pleased to now
have two in my riding, the Khalsa Diwan Society Temple and the
Guru Nanak Darbar Temple. The Khalsa Diwan Society was formed in
B.C. in 1907 for the protection of Sikhs in Canada.
In 1913 the worst incident of anti-Sikhism in Canada occurred
when the ship the Komagata Maru arrived in Vancouver on May 21,
1913 and was kept from landing for two months and then was
eventually sent away. This is a story that I do not have the
time to tell in great detail, but the details are both
fascinating and embarrassing in this day of multiculturalism,
human rights and racial and religious tolerance and pluralism.
Given this early experience of Sikhs in this country, we should
be all the more pleased with the attachment that so many Sikh
Canadians feel today for Canada. We should be all the more
pleased to recognize, through the passage of this motion and
speaking to this motion, the great contribution they went on to
make to all of Canada, as Sikhs immigrated to provinces other
than British Columbia and made their mark in many Canadian cities
in all walks of life.
Certainly in my own city, the Sikh community has made a
tremendous contribution to the growth, development and the nature
of the city of Winnipeg. Winnipeg is a city that has always
prided itself on its diversity.
1815
Sikhs in Winnipeg have certainly enriched and enhanced that
diversity by bringing to it the values that emanate from their
way of life and their religion: the values of equality, social
responsibility, community service and the importance of family.
It is an ethic that resonates with the values that Canadians want
to uphold as Canadians, no matter what their origin or religion.
It is in this spirit that I urge members of the House to
contribute their own comments to the debate on this particular
motion and to consider whether or not at the end of the debate we
might find our way through to passing the motion.
I am not going to take up all my time because I believe there
should be an opportunity for as many members as possible to
contribute to this particular debate. I will finish by reciting
words often heard in gurdwaras across the country and which I
have had occasion to utter myself when speaking to Sikh
congregations in my riding:
Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa, Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh
Ms. Sarmite Bulte (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Canadian Heritage, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is with great
pleasure that I participate in tonight's debate on the motion of
the member of parliament for Winnipeg—Transcona, Motion No. 32.
The Sikh community has made many contributions to Canadian
society. The success of the Sikhs in participating in the
political process is increasing in all levels of government.
This success should be applauded as the experience and knowledge
within the Sikh community brings another perspective to the
Canadian political stage.
The Sikh community, along with Canada's other ethnic and
cultural communities, not only contributed to the diversity of
the nation but also helped to challenge and change Canadian
society through mutual understanding. Canada's experience with
diversity distinguishes it from other countries. Our 30 million
inhabitants reflect a cultural, ethnic and linguistic makeup
found nowhere else on earth. Approximately 200,000 immigrants a
year from all parts of the globe continue to choose Canada, drawn
by its quality of life and its reputation as an open, peaceful
and caring society that welcomes newcomers and values diversity.
The bill of rights in 1960 barred discrimination by federal
agencies on the grounds of race, national origin, colour,
religion or sex. Changes to Canada's Immigration Act in 1962
specifically stated that “any suitably qualified person from any
part of the world could be considered for immigration to Canada,
without regard for his race, colour, national origin, or the
country from which he comes”.
As a consequence, Canada's immigration policies gradually became
less European and the mix of source countries shifted to nations
in Southern Europe, Asia and the West Indies. Substantial
increases during the 1970s and 1980s in the number of immigrants
admitted as refugees under humanitarian and compassionate grounds
further diversified the ethnocultural origins of newcomers to
Canada.
Canada has learned a great deal from its diversity. Accepting,
and then coming to value the differences between our peoples, has
changed and continues to change Canada, making our country a
better place. However, as Canadians look to the future it is
clear that new pressures will make balancing diversity and unity
even more challenging.
Through practice we have come to understand that the differences
between us do not have to divide us. This encourages citizens
who face common challenges to step forward and claim their right
to full participation in Canadian society.
As a consequence, Canada's concept of what constitutes diversity
is constantly expanding. Diversity is moving beyond language,
ethnicity, race and religion to include cross-cutting
characteristics such as gender, sexual orientation and range of
ability and age. The same approaches that have helped Canadians
develop into a bilingual, multicultural society are now helping
to bring down other barriers that prevent individuals from
reaching their full potential.
1820
Lessons learned through experience with bilingualism and
multiculturalism have taught Canada that acceptance and
understanding of differences between peoples make collective
development possible. However, experience with diversity also
shows that inequities must be acknowledged and addressed for a
diverse people to move forward together. This is sometimes a slow
and sometimes a painful process, but it is essential if all
Canadians are to enjoy the same sense of belonging and attachment
to their country. It also serves to familiarize Canadians with
the history that they share and the obligations that their
history confers.
Making equality of opportunity meaningful in a diverse society
requires more than constitutional measures and legislation. All
levels of government in Canada deliver programs that mobilize
communities to promote dialogue and help people overcome barriers
to their participation in society.
As with official languages and multiculturalism, Canada has
learned that constitutional measures and legislation alone are
not enough to assure equal opportunity in a diverse society. To
contribute fully and achieve their full potential, all peoples
must have a voice in society and a chance to shape the future
direction of the country of which they are part.
Canada's future depends on maintaining and strengthening its
capacity to bring together peoples with many differences, even
grievances, and building an inclusive society where no one's
identity or cultural heritage should be compromised.
Canada's approach to diversity is based on the belief that the
common good is served when everyone is accepted and respected for
who they are and that this ultimately makes for a more resilient,
more harmonious and creative society. This faith in the value of
diversity recognizes that respect for cultural distinctiveness is
intrinsic to an individual's sense of self-worth and identity,
and a society that accommodates everyone equally is a society
that encourages achievement, participation, attachment to country
and a sense of belonging.
Canada has embraced diversity, or cultural pluralism as some
people refer to it, in both policy and practice. It is viewed as
one of Canada's most important attributes, socially and
economically. Canadians value diversity for enriching cultural
expression and making daily life more varied and interesting.
Businesses and employers recognize that diversity in the
workplace promotes innovation, stimulates teamwork and creativity
and helps expand markets for goods and services.
As the diversity of the population expands, new links are forged
with the world at a time when Canadians recognize the increasing
importance of having a credible voice in international affairs
and strengthening our advantages in the global economy.
Canada stands as proof that it is possible for women and men of
the world's many races, religions and cultures to live together.
We admit our problems and we work across our differences to find
solutions. We show the world that different people can accept
and respect one another and work collaboratively to build one of
the most open, resilient, creative and caring societies on earth.
Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, as a Sikh member of parliament and as the chief
critic for multiculturalism for the official opposition of
Canada, I am very pleased to speak in favour of Motion No. 32:
that this House recognize the importance of April 13 to all Sikhs
and the contributions that Canadian Sikhs have made to our
country, and that this House also recognize the importance of the
symbols of the Sikh religion called the five Ks, which I will be
talking about later.
I congratulate and appreciate the efforts of the hon. member for
Winnipeg—Transcona in tabling this motion. In 1999 the Manitoba
legislature recognized a similar motion to commemorate the 300th
anniversary of the birth of khalsa, the pure Sikhs.
It is also important that one should respect all religions,
irrespective of one's own faith.
According to Sikhism, a Sikh should try to become a better Sikh,
a Hindu a better Hindu, a Christian a better Christian, a Muslim
a better Muslim, a Jew a better Jew and so on.
1825
However, when the Prime Minister's office allegedly interfered
with the services for the Swissair tragedy at Peggy's Cove by
asking them not to refer to Jesus in the prayers in services,
that was not fair. I stood up for my Christian brothers and
sisters to oppose that interference by the Prime Minister's
office.
Surrey Central, the largest constituency in Canada in
population, has a large population of many ethnic communities,
with a huge majority of Sikhs. In fact, the highest
concentration of Sikhs in the world outside India's Punjab state
live in Surrey.
The Sikhs are basically inhabitants of Punjab, which has about
3% of the area and 2.5% of the population of India. That state
of Punjab produces over 70% of the food in the country. Sikhs
participated in large numbers in the British and Indian armies.
Their contribution in the great wars, World War I and World War
II, has been recognized by the Queen. Of the total sacrifices
made to get freedom for India, 97% were made by Sikhs. Their
contribution to the Indian Olympic teams has also been very
significant. Lastly, according to a recent congressional report
in the U.S. senate, Punjabis have the highest per capita income
and the highest per capita education level of any ethnic
community in North America.
The history of Sikhs in Canada is about 100 years old. During
this period, Sikhs have contributed in the making of railway
tracks and in work in the sawmills and have made professional
contributions in the fields of medicine, law, education,
engineering, et cetera. Sikhs own big businesses and industries
and of course contribute in politics, as we see by their
contributions in the House.
Sikhs all over the world have been renowned for their hard work,
great courage and enterprise, but a big scar in Canadian history
is the Kamagatamaru ship incident, as the hon. member from
the NDP mentioned. Most of the passengers on that ship were
Sikhs who were fighting for human rights and freedom. Because of
their country of origin and their race, the Liberal government
did not allow them to land on Canadian soil. Upon the ship's
return to India, most of the passengers were killed by the
British army.
The history of Sikhs is about half a millennium old. It starts
with the birth of the first guru, Guru Nanak Dev Ji, who was born
in 1469. On April 13, 1699, at a huge gathering, with a
glittering sword in his hand, the tenth guru, Guru Gobind Singh
Ji, gave a call for those who would protect the truth and live
the faith even at the cost of their lives.
The first five who offered themselves to the guru were called
panj pyaras, or the five beloved ones. They were baptized
and then were requested by the guru to admit him into the
panth by administering amrit to him, or baptizing
him. About 20,000 persons took amrit and became members of
the khalsa panth that day. This was the birth of
Khalsa and the day is called Vaisakhi.
The amrit is partaken of after adopting the essential five
external Sikh symbols, called the five Ks, which are a unique
gift from the great Guru Gobind Singh Sahib. A Sikh is not
supposed to part with any of these symbols.
To be a member of the khalsa panth, all individuals, even
the guru, had to take amrit, adopt the five K uniform and
have the name Singh for a male, which means lion, and Kaur for a
female. Partaking of amrit is open to everyone,
irrespective of caste, creed, race et cetera.
Now let me talk about the five Ks I referred to.
1830
Out of the five K's, the first one is kes, or hair.
Kes is a symbol of saintliness or holiness and is
considered an important part of the human body. The hair of
Khalsa creates a blessed appearance and outlook.
Guru Gobind Singh Ji said “Khalsa is my special form. I
live in the Khalsa”. To keep hair intact and not meddle
with hair is the first and foremost duty of a Sikh. Even the
place where baptism of five beloved ones at Anadpur Sahib
took place was named Kesh-Garh.
It is required of every Sikh to keep his or her head covered.
Males do it by tying a turban while females keep a big scarf
called a chunni or a smaller turban called a keski.
The turban is a very important part of the Sikh religious
tradition and also a matter of huge respect, pride and honour.
This is why Sikhs cannot be asked to remove their turbans in any
place under any circumstances.
In the past, oppressive Mughal emperors forcefully ordered Sikhs
to cut their hair which resulted in Sikhs choosing to be beheaded
rather than succumb to the orders of the oppressors.
The second K is for kangha, usually a small wooden comb.
Khalsa combs the hair twice daily, ties the hair on the
head in a topknot, sticks the kangha behind the knot and
then ties the turban with pride.
The third K is kirpan, a stainless steel sword that is a
symbol of power, dignity, courage, self-confidence and faith in
the victory of good over evil. It is also called sri
sahib. It is a weapon of defence and not offence. It is
regarded as a scourge of the tyrant and the wicked. It is used
to provide for the protection of a good or righteous cause.
Sikhs keep the kirpan, the active symbol, in a sheath and
wear it in a belt called gatra.
The Sikhs had to struggle to get concessions in regard to
keeping these symbols intact as part and parcel of the
*Khalsa code of conduct at all places, including the army,
jails, flying or even on motorcycle rides.
In recognition of the loyal and distinguished services rendered
by the Sikhs in the great wars to the Queen, in September 1920
Sikhs were allowed to wear the kirpan even in the army both
in uniform and in plain clothes.
In the past, Singhs used the kirpan to free young Hindu
ladies who were abducted and raped in the thousands by oppressive
rulers and traded in the market. Sikhs freed them and returned
them to their respective families safely.
The fourth K is kara, a stainless steel bracelet worn on
the right wrist. It reminds the Sikhs of the vows of baptism.
Thus it prevents Khalsa from doing anything evil that is
unworthy of a Khalsa. Additionally, it serves the purpose
of a shield to protect the arm while fighting with an enemy. Even
those Sikhs who have not taken amrit wear kara.
The fifth K is kash or kashehra, which is underpants
or drawers. It is so tailored that it covers the private parts
well and does not restrict movements of the marshall
Khalsa. It is a symbol of sexual restraint and moral
purity. Khalsa has been known for not committing adultery.
On the day celebrated as Vaisakhi, the sangat
founded by the first Guru Nanak Dev Ji was transformed into the
Khalsa Panth. The mandate of the Khalsa is to spread
righteousness, protect the human rights of truthful people and
destroy tyranny.
The Vaisakhi brings the spirit of chardi kala, that
is the high spirit to the Panth and reminds them of their
great heritage, self-esteem and high character. To be a member
of the Panth, one has to follow the life of
Sewa-Simran and wish all humanity well.
1835
During the 18th century becoming a Sikh was against the law of
the land ruled by oppressive Mughal rulers who ordered that
anyone who could find a Sikh could chop his head off and could
exchange that head at any police station for about one year's
wages.
Sikhs not only survived this elimination or genocide, but also
before the turn of the century Sikhs became the formal rulers of
the Punjab from Pishawar to Delhi. The Sikhs were famous for
their pure conduct, bravery, love for humanity and the protection
they provided the poor and helpless, even at the cost of their
own lives.
The high character of Sikhs was so popular with the people that
even a Muslim historian, Kazi Noor Mohammed, could not help
recognizing it and recorded it on pages 156 to 159 in his book
Jang Nama.
In conclusion, I congratulate the member for Winnipeg—Transcona
for the motion and urge all members of the House to support it.
Recognizing the importance of Vaisakhi, the Reform Party of
Canada and now the Canadian Alliance, Her Majesty's Loyal
Official Opposition of Canada, proudly celebrates Vaisakhi
in parliament every year since 1998. This year's annual
celebration of Vaisakhi will be celebrated on Wednesday,
April 4, in Room 237-C, Centre Block, from 4 to 6 p.m. As
always, I invite members of all parties and the public in general
to join us in the celebration.
In 1998 the leader of the Reform Party was the first and only
federal leader of any political party in Canada to visit the
Golden Temple, the holiest shrine of the Sikhs and the Durgiana
Mander in Amritsar.
I would also like to say that I am a politician and not a
religious leader in any way. Due to my limited knowledge, wisdom
and time, I may have unknowingly made omissions or statements
that may not have expressed the exact feelings or principles, for
which I apologize.
However I am proud to end the speech with the Khalsa
slogan, Bole So Nihal, Sat Sri Akaal and share the Guru's
greetings, Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.
[Translation]
Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
states do evolve over the years.
Quebec and Canada are no exception to this rule and one of the
main reasons for changes in states is, of course, the
contribution of new citizens, new communities, people different
from us.
Many groups have come to Quebec and to Canada to seek a better
life and more dignity. Some of them chose to settle here to
escape famine or persecution or simply to try to build a better
life for themselves.
The hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona is giving us today the
opportunity to talk briefly about a community that is not well
known in Quebec, because not many of its members are living in
Quebec.
Sikhs came to Canada toward the end of the 19th century. They
made their way over here as members of a unit of the British
Army. They were on their way home to India after the
celebrations surrounding Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee when
they chose to stay in Canada. That was probably not a bad
choice.
A few years later, following Kind Edward VII's coronation, a
second group arrived in Canada. All of them had a military
background.
There are currently 300,000 Sikhs in Canada and the motion put
forward by the hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona asks the House
to recognize the importance of April 13 for all Sikhs and the
contributions that Canadian Sikhs have made to our country.
The motion also reads as follows:
—that this House also recognize the importance of the five K's:
the KIRPAN—a sword representing indomitable spirit; KES—unshorn
hair, representing a simple life, saintliness and devotion to
God; KARA—a steel bangle worn as a sign of the eternity of God;
KANGA—a wooden comb worn to represent a clean mind and body; and
KACHA—short breeches, representing hygienic living.
1840
I personally have a great deal of admiration and respect for
communities that show their attachment to the symbols that
represent them. In the life of all people, symbols are part of
their vitality, culture and identity.
In that context, I wish to thank the hon. member for putting
forward this motion. Clearly, I hope that the House will
recognize the importance of April 13, because to the Sikh
community April 13 is what New Year's Day is to us. It is the
first day of the new Sikh year, the Vaisakhi. Unfortunately,
that is the extent of what I can read in Sikh.
In 1999, Canada Post recognized the Sikh community by issuing a
stamp. Canada Post issues many stamps, but this one was quite
special since it stressed the importance of the Sikh community,
of the April 13 celebrations for that community and of the role
that its members play in their communities.
That is what I had to say. I hope that after today's debate,
April 13 will be an important date for Canadians and Quebecers.
[English]
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC):
Mr. Speaker, we are here today to acknowledge, as part and parcel
of the motion, the significant contribution that has been made by
Canadian Sikhs to Canadian society and to recognize the
importance of April 13 as the birthday of Khalsa.
I extend sincere congratulations to the hon. member for
Winnipeg—Transcona, a respected colleague, fellow House leader
and a dean of the House of Commons, on his attempt to have the
whole House support the particular motion.
As you will undoubtedly be aware, Mr. Speaker, Canada has a rich
history of diversity and one that spans many religions, cultures,
languages and ethnicities. I believe it is in our very best
interest to support and celebrate each and every one of these
diverse cultures to the extent that we recognize important
religious heritage days.
Canada as a whole was built upon the efforts of immigrants,
coupled with the foundation and origins of our aboriginal
peoples. On this special day, April 13, Sikhs across the world
celebrate Vaisakhi, the Sikh New Year. Today in Canada we
have close to 300,000 Sikhs. On this day the Sikhs pay tribute
to their faith, not unlike the Christian significance of
Christmas, and we join in that celebration.
While the Sikh population in my constituency of
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough is relatively small compared to
that of more urban centres across the country, we recognize the
contribution Sikhs make in each and every riding, in each and
every corridor and corner of Canada.
I support the motion that has been presented to us by the hon.
member for Winnipeg—Transcona for a number of reasons. First
and foremost, Canada's diversity is only strengthened by the
encouragement of all religions and ethnicities to participate
fully in Canadian society and to integrate themselves further
into the social fabric in our economy, in our culture and in our
way of life.
By supporting resolutions such as this one we are setting a
landmark example of the acceptance of religions, ethnicities and
cultures in Canada, again a very fundamental founding principle
that all Canadians embrace.
1845
Second, I unequivocally support this motion, as do members of my
party, as one would not question the significant contributions
the Sikh community has made in Canada in the business sector, in
the human rights field and in numerous other fields.
During the early settlement of this country, Sikhs laboriously
and reliably worked in lumber mills and yards to better their
lives and to better the lives of those in their communities. Some
Sikhs eventually went on to own their own mills like the Mayo
Lumber Company and the Kapoor Lumber Company in British Columbia.
The wealth accumulated from those particular businesses was used
to benefit the advancement of the Sikh community on the west
coast by building schools, temples, homes and other
contributions. You will be the first to agree. Mr. Speaker,
that this type of dedication and determination is commendable and
it is a symbol to all Canadians of innovation, perseverance and
entrepreneurial spirit.
During this same period Sikhs were actively promoting human
rights in their new land, not only for Sikhs in Canada but for
Sikhs around the world. Often we will hear about the early days
when those in Sikh communities across this nation would raise
money for humanitarian efforts such as natural disasters that
occurred in their homeland or in other countries. Their
commitment to Sikhs in this country was also equally intense.
Fighting for equality, the Sikhs were diligent in overturning
and rewriting discriminatory laws that many immigrants faced when
arriving on our shores. The Khalsa Diwan Society was started and
led this immigration fight, lobbying both the Canadian government
and the government of India for fair immigration policies. These
were laudable efforts and significant accomplishments. This
group was successful in finally working toward a more equitable
and non-discriminatory immigration policy.
I truly believe that this community has worked hard to earn the
right to call Canada their home and to be fully embraced by all
Canadians. We in this parliament can take a significant and
symbolic step by embracing this motion. I know there may be
efforts made later to make this matter votable. We fully endorse
the significance that would attach by having a vote by all
parliamentarians on this motion.
I believe, like all Canadians, that anyone who pays taxes, who
abides by the laws of the land, who makes and works toward a
better Canada deserves the respect of all of us in the Chamber. I
say this and say it in the hope that each and every member of the
House of Commons will see it within themselves to support this
motion and recognize the importance of April 13 to all Sikhs and
to further acknowledge the importance of their spiritual symbols.
As the Sikh community grows in numbers and they continue to
observe and practice the customs and traditions of their new
country, as well as their former country, I believe it is only
appropriate that we extend this goodwill. Through this motion
and others like it, we can find a common meeting place that all
Canadians, whether they be Sikh, Christian, Muslim, Jewish or
those of any background, can take pride in having a sense of
ownership. Mutual understanding and respect are the keys to a
more balanced and solid fabric in Canada. I do not believe that
Sikh Canadians, or any Canadians for that matter, should feel
obliged to alter their customs or belief. These should be a
source of pride and a source of beauty.
I want to record again the unequivocal support of the
Progressive Conservative Party for this motion. I call upon all
members of the House to do the same. It is with pride that the
Progressive Conservative Party does attach itself to this
particular motion. As mentioned by the member for
Winnipeg—Transcona, it is a motion that originated in
legislature of his home province. A Progressive Conservative
government in Manitoba embraced a similar motion.
All Canadians, all religions, all spiritual beliefs should be
given this significant recognition by this, the home that all
Canadians should look to. The symbolism would be significant. By
working together, a motion like this embraces the very essence of
this country and the great culture and the cultural mosaic that
has become the catchphrase for Canada.
My congratulations to the NDP member for bringing this motion
forward. He will certainly have our support on this motion.
1850
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, let me in the few minutes available to me say how proud
I am to second the motion before us today sponsored by the member
for Winnipeg—Transcona.
Like my colleague who represents an area that has a very
significant population of Sikhs, I too have been blessed with the
opportunity to represent an area where the Sikh population is
large, active and contributes a great deal to the health and
well-being of our whole community.
In my area, the constituency of Winnipeg North Centre, there are
two gurdwaras that have been a source of inspiration to me
and to our whole community. They are the gurdwara of Singh
Sabha and the Sikh Society of Manitoba. Those two
gurdwaras have played a very active role in bringing the
community together to appreciate the cultural significance of
Sikhism and to share with everyone the sense of spirituality that
really signifies this community and the contributions it makes to
the country.
I too am very pleased to join with my colleagues in the House in
recognizing the significance of the April 13 birthday and to pay
tribute to my colleague from Winnipeg—Transcona for taking this
initiative to bring the motion before the House.
It would certainly be my hope, as I am sure is a hope shared by
colleagues from all parties in the House, that we could agree to
support the motion with a vote of confidence and make it a
unanimous recommendation from the House of Commons.
It is a significant moment to pay tribute to Sikhism and the
contribution by Sikhs in the history and development of the
country. I certainly have felt that contribution in my community
and value very much the sense of spirituality of Sikhs. Their
devotion to the values of justice, equality and dignity is very
much a part of the faith and culture that surrounds Sikhism in
Manitoba and in Canada.
I would pass the speaking over to my colleague and hope that the
House would agree to unanimously support the motion.
Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
I want to begin by thanking all members of the House who have
contributed to this debate. It is the kind of debate that I had
in mind when I put forward the motion. This is an opportunity
for members from all parties to put on the record their views on
the importance of April 13 with respect to the contribution of
the Sikh community to Canada and with respect to the importance
of the five Ks to the Sikh community.
I hope the Sikh community will be able to look back on this day,
February 20, 2001, as a day when the Canadian parliament saw fit,
not only to debate in a consensual and harmonious way this
particular motion, but also, as I will very shortly request, to
go beyond that and use the powers we have through unanimous
consent to deem the motion votable and to pass it by unanimous
consent, which is within our power to do so.
I know it is somewhat unusual, and I apologize to the House for
the unusual nature of the request, but it is not without
precedent. I have seen it happen on a number of occasions when
people felt that it was a special enough occasion for us to use
that particular power. I think today is that kind of day.
1855
Again I thank the hon. members who have spoken. I thank the
person in Winnipeg, Mr. Kewal Singh, who initially suggested this
to me as a measure that I might bring forward. I am very
grateful that we see the kind of unanimity we have here. Everyone
has spoken in favour of the motion.
If the motion passes, if we deem the motion votable and put the
question, no particular burden, legislative or otherwise, will
flow from this except that the Sikh community in this country
will know that at this particular time in our history we were
able to reflect on their history in Canada, to reflect on some of
the things that were done that we wish had never been done, to
reflect on many of the great things they have done in this
country and finally to express ourselves as the House of Commons
in the way that this motion suggests.
I would ask, Mr. Speaker, that you seek unanimous consent to
deem this motion votable. I am not exactly sure what the
procedure is. I ask the House for unanimous consent that it be
deemed votable and passed.
The Deputy Speaker: Does the hon. member for
Winnipeg—Transcona have consent to present his motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Some hon. members: No.
Mr. Gurmant Grewal: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. The hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona, who put Motion
No. 32 before the House, asked for unanimous
consent of the House to make it votable. I want to
point out that members of the Canadian Alliance said yes, and
it was Liberal members who said no.
The Deputy Speaker: The time provided for the
consideration of private members' business has now expired. As
the motion has not been designated a votable item, the order is
dropped from the order paper.
ADJOURNMENT PROCEEDINGS
[English]
A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to
have been moved.
FOREIGN AFFAIRS
Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Mr. Speaker,
I rise to request more information on a question I asked earlier
with respect to the Vienna Convention and the immunity for
diplomats, which has been brought to light because of the very
unfortunate accident in Ottawa involving a Russian diplomat which
resulted in a fatality and the serious injury of another person
and a pet. It certainly put the focus of attention for all of
Ottawa and a great deal of the country on this issue of
diplomatic immunity and just how far diplomatic immunity extends.
Although for a while it did not look like the Russian diplomat
would be charged, it now looks like there is at least a chance he
will be charged for this fatality. There will be an
investigation done in Russia under article 264 of their criminal
code, which appears to be the appropriate place for it.
In any case, the problem with this issue is that the diplomat
was known to be an abusive person and was also known to have a
record of driving while intoxicated. The diplomatic immunity
that we have and need as politicians and diplomats around the
world was used to protect this person from prosecution or even
from discipline for driving while intoxicated.
While we realize the Vienna Convention is very important, we
think there are serious flaws in it and we would like the
minister to lead the charge to change the Vienna Convention.
Canada is not the only country to have experienced difficulties
with diplomats who abuse the immunity rules. We think there
would be consensus in other countries to change the Vienna
Convention with respect to immunity to prevent diplomats from
abusing the system, repeatedly breaking the law and endangering
people's lives like the Russian diplomat did in Canada.
I would also like to point out that I believe the administration
of the Russian embassy is partly responsible for this, because it
knew that it had a diplomat who was acting in a dangerous manner
and was abusive to the police every time he was stopped.
He abused his immunity rules to protect himself when really they
should not have been used for that purpose. They were never
intended for that.
1900
We want the minister to take the initiative to change the Vienna
convention to prevent diplomats from abusing it in cases where
they are endangering lives of people in other countries. We
think that Canada should take a leading role in spearheading the
amendment to the Vienna convention. We think there would be a
great deal of support around the world for it.
The question I asked before is the same question I am asking
now. Will the Government of Canada spearhead an international
initiative to change the rules on diplomatic immunity and in
particular to stop protecting drunk and dangerous drivers?
[Translation]
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as everyone knows, Catherine MacLean
was killed and Catherine Doré was seriously injured in a tragic
accident that happened in Ottawa, on January 27.
The driver of the car that struck both women was Andrei Knyazev,
a Russian diplomat who was apparently driving under the
influence.
[English]
Immediately after the accident the Department of Foreign Affairs
sought a waiver of Mr. Knyazev's diplomatic immunity by the
Russian government. As is normally the practice in such cases,
the Russian government refused to waive his immunity and Mr.
Knyazev returned to Moscow on January 29.
[Translation]
Since the accident, the Minister and the Department of Foreign
Affairs, as well as the Canadian embassy in Moscow, have been
working hard to see that justice is done in Russia. We have just
learned that the Russian attorney general has announced that
criminal charges will be laid against Mr. Knyazev.
[English]
We understand that the case is now being turned over to the
Moscow police for investigation. The Canadian police file on the
accident involving Mr. Knyazev was sent directly to the Russian
authorities through police channels on February 12. It has now
arrived in Moscow.
[Translation]
The tragedy that occurred on January 27 has led the Minister of
Foreign Affairs to ask for an urgent review of the policies and
procedures followed by the Department of Foreign Affairs. The
results of this review carried out by the deputy minister will
be made public shortly.
The department recognizes that diplomatic immunity was crucial
to bilateral relations and allowed diplomats to appropriately
serve their countries.
The convention is clearly supported by the world community.
[English]
HEALTH
Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (Winnipeg North Centre, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I am very pleased to have the opportunity to elaborate
further on my question in the House on February 13. It pertains
to the whole Brazilian beef episode. It refers to the treatment
of Health Canada scientists. Most significantly, it pertains to
the very serious matter of mad cow disease in our society today.
Without going into great detail about the whole Brazilian beef
fiasco which is unfolding as we speak, suffice it to say the
entire issue has highlighted the adequacy or inadequacy of
Canada's food safety system. It has raised serious questions
about the ability of our government to protect Canadians from mad
cow disease.
The question I raised on February 13 followed the fact that two
senior Health Canada scientists spoke out in early February
suggesting that there was no sustainable argument for singling
out Brazilian beef products ahead of those from other countries.
It also referred to the fact that the government chose to gag the
scientists who had spoken out.
Whatever the sequence of events, the critical issue scientists
have raised for all of us is: What is the state of our food
safety system? Are there reasons to be concerned? What is the
process that the government has in place for ensuring a
completely fail-safe science based system to protect Canadians
from mad cow disease?
Various questions have been raised. The scientists themselves
have asked why Brazil. What about the beef we get from other
countries such as Australia, Argentina, India and so on?
1905
Other reports talk about the fact that, contrary to the minister
of agriculture's assertion, Canada did import beef products and
bone meal products from Britain at the very time that it knew
about mad cow disease.
Recent reports have come out of the United States, in particular
from a biologist associated with the U.S. consumers union,
suggesting that Canadians may be at risk of contracting the human
form of mad cow disease from domestic beef because current
testing is inadequate. Those are the questions behind the whole
issue.
The scientists chose to speak out. They were the same
scientists who had spoken out about bovine growth hormone and
were subsequently intimidated and gagged by this government.
However, they pursued that case through the courts and won the
right to speak out whenever they felt the public interest or the
public good was in question.
Today we face the same situation, a repeat of that sad chapter
in our history, and yet the government has not come forward with
any explanation for gagging those scientists, let alone assure
Canadians it has a fail-proof, science based system in place.
The questions today for the parliamentary secretary are: Will
the government come forward with precise details about how to
protect Canadians from mad cow disease? Will the government tell
Canadians whether the precautionary principle is truly at work
and whether scientists with expertise in the area of research on
beef products will be included in the review of the area?
Canadians must be absolutely confident that the beef they buy in
supermarkets is safe and that there is no reason for concern in
terms of this very serious and dangerous disease.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvon Charbonneau (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Health, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, a great many scientists work at
Health Canada. They are responsible for public health and food
safety, but they do not all work in the area of mad cow disease.
I assure the House that Health Canada and the Canadian Food
Inspection Agency each have a team of specialists who oversee
the scientific, political and administrative aspects of this
issue.
The Health Canada scientists who were recently quoted in the
media and by the opposition member were not members of either of
these teams.
[English]
In addition to that, I have the pleasure to communicate to the
House that an independent science advisory panel within Health
Canada has endorsed the government's controversial decision to
temporarily ban Brazilian beef over concerns that it may be
contaminated with mad cow disease.
The science advisory board is headed by astronaut Roberta Bondar
and composed of people with expertise in areas such as science,
medicine and bioethics. The board has stated that the temporary
suspension of imports and the removal of Brazilian beef products
are justified actions on scientific grounds.
[Translation]
As can be seen, the opposition member is committing a serious
error in implying that this decision was unfounded
scientifically.
When it comes to public health, Canada has clear policies which
are based on a scientific approach developed by experts, an
approach supported by independent experts, as we have just seen,
and this enables us to reduce to a minimum all known or
apprehended threats to public health in Canada.
The Deputy Speaker: The motion to adjourn the House is now
deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly, this House stands
adjourned until tomorrow at 2 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24.
(The House adjourned at 7.09 p.m.)