37th Parliament, 1st Session
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 024
CONTENTS
Thursday, March 1, 2001
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
1000
| SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES(A), 2000-2001
|
1005
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Procedure and House Affairs
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| CRIMINAL CODE
|
| Bill C-290. Introduction and first reading
|
| Mr. Deepak Obhrai |
| SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES (A), 2000-01
|
| Reference to Standing Committees
|
| Hon. Lucienne Robillard |
| Motion
|
| COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
|
| Procedure and House Affairs
|
| Motion for concurrence
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
1010
| PETITIONS
|
| Kidney Disease
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| Mount Logan
|
| Mr. Peter Adams |
| QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
|
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
| SUPPLY
|
| Allotted Day—Maritime Helicopter Procurement
|
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
| Motion
|
1015
1020
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
1025
| Mr. Art Hanger |
| Mr. Loyola Hearn |
1030
1035
| Amendment
|
1040
| Mr. Derek Lee |
| Mr. Art Hanger |
1045
| Hon. Alfonso Gagliano |
1050
1055
1100
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
1105
| Mr. Art Hanger |
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
1110
| Mr. Bill Casey |
| Mr. Art Hanger |
1115
1120
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
1125
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
| Mr. John Duncan |
1130
1135
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
1140
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
| Mr. Lynn Myers |
1145
| Mr. Claude Bachand |
1150
1155
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
1200
| Mr. Gérard Asselin |
1205
| Mr. Art Hanger |
1210
| Mr. Peter Stoffer |
1215
1220
1225
| Mr. Scott Brison |
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
1230
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
1235
| Mr. Art Hanger |
1240
| Mr. Scott Brison |
1245
1250
| Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
| Mr. David Price |
1255
| Mr. Bill Casey |
1300
| Mr. David Price |
1305
| Mr. David Price |
1310
1315
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
| Mr. Gérard Asselin |
1320
| Mr. John O'Reilly |
1325
| Mr. Loyola Hearn |
1330
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
| Mr. Leon Benoit |
1335
1340
1345
| Mr. Lynn Myers |
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
1350
| Mr. Peter Goldring |
1355
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
| STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
|
1400
| INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY
|
| Ms. Paddy Torsney |
| SUPREME COURT OF CANADA
|
| Mr. Vic Toews |
| AMOS
|
| Mr. Guy St-Julien |
| NATIONAL ENGINEERING WEEK
|
| Mr. Andy Savoy |
| NORTHUMBERLAND
|
| Mr. Paul Harold Macklin |
1405
| RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT
|
| Ms. Cheryl Gallant |
| WOMEN'S DEMANDS
|
| Ms. Diane Bourgeois |
| GUN CONTROL
|
| Mr. John Harvard |
| MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES
|
| Mrs. Marlene Jennings |
| GILDAS MOLGAT
|
| Mr. Inky Mark |
1410
| ACTS OF BRAVERY
|
| Mr. Dominic LeBlanc |
| TRANSPORTATION
|
| Mrs. Bev Desjarlais |
| INTERNATIONAL YEAR OF VOLUNTEERS
|
| Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay |
| CANADIAN MEN'S UNIVERSITY VOLLEYBALL CHAMPIONSHIP
|
| Mr. Jean-Guy Carignan |
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Mr. Gerald Keddy |
1415
| WOMEN'S RIGHTS
|
| Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral |
| ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
|
| ETHICS COUNSELLOR
|
| Mr. Stockwell Day |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Stockwell Day |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Stockwell Day |
1420
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Ms. Val Meredith |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Ms. Val Meredith |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| FREE TRADE AREA OF THE AMERICAS
|
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
1425
| Mr. Gilles Duceppe |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Pierre Paquette |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| Mr. Pierre Paquette |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Mr. Dick Proctor |
| Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
1430
| Mr. Dick Proctor |
| Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
| ETHICS COUNSELLOR
|
| Right Hon. Joe Clark |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Right Hon. Joe Clark |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| THE ECONOMY
|
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| Mr. Jason Kenney |
1435
| Hon. Paul Martin |
| FREE TRADE AREA OF THE AMERICAS
|
| Ms. Francine Lalonde |
| Mr. Pat O'Brien |
| Ms. Francine Lalonde |
| Mr. Pat O'Brien |
| CORRECTIONAL SERVICE CANADA
|
| Mr. Randy White |
| Hon. Lawrence MacAulay |
1440
| Mr. Randy White |
| Hon. Lawrence MacAulay |
| FREE TRADE AREA OF THE AMERICAS
|
| Mr. Michel Gauthier |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| Mr. Michel Gauthier |
| Right Hon. Jean Chrétien |
| NATIONAL DEFENCE
|
| Mr. John Cummins |
| Hon. Art Eggleton |
| Mr. John Cummins |
1445
| Hon. Art Eggleton |
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Mr. Murray Calder |
| Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
| HOUSING
|
| Ms. Libby Davies |
| Hon. Alfonso Gagliano |
| Ms. Libby Davies |
| Hon. Alfonso Gagliano |
| PUBLIC WORKS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES
|
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
| Hon. Alfonso Gagliano |
1450
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
| Hon. Alfonso Gagliano |
| NATIONAL DEFENCE
|
| Mr. Art Hanger |
| Hon. Art Eggleton |
| Mr. Art Hanger |
| Hon. Art Eggleton |
| FREE TRADE AREA OF THE AMERICAS
|
| Mr. Richard Marceau |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
| Mr. Richard Marceau |
| Hon. Stéphane Dion |
1455
| AGRICULTURE
|
| Mr. David Anderson |
| Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
| Mr. David Anderson |
| Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
| TRADE
|
| Mr. Tony Tirabassi |
| Mr. Pat O'Brien |
| TRANSPORTATION
|
| Mr. Jim Abbott |
| Mr. Brent St. Denis |
| Mr. Jim Abbott |
| Mr. Brent St. Denis |
1500
| SUMMIT OF THE AMERICAS
|
| Ms. Diane Bourgeois |
| Hon. Hedy Fry |
| FOREIGN AFFAIRS
|
| Mr. David Pratt |
| Hon. John Manley |
| PRESENCE IN GALLERY
|
| The Speaker |
| BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
|
| Mr. Chuck Strahl |
| Hon. Don Boudria |
1505
| POINTS OF ORDER
|
| Standing Orders
|
| Mr. André Bachand |
1510
| Hon. Don Boudria |
1515
| Mr. Stéphane Bergeron |
1520
| Mr. Derek Lee |
1525
| Right Hon. Joe Clark |
| Hon. Lorne Nystrom |
1530
| PRIVILEGE
|
| Bill C-2—Time Allocation—Speaker's Ruling
|
| The Deputy Speaker |
1535
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
1540
| SUPPLY
|
| Allotted Day—Maritime Helicopter Procurement
|
| Motion
|
| Mr. Grant McNally |
| Mr. David Pratt |
1545
1550
| Mr. Gerald Keddy |
1555
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
1600
1605
| Mr. Rob Anders |
| Mr. Gerald Keddy |
1610
| Mr. Grant McNally |
1615
1620
| Mr. Rodger Cuzner |
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
1625
| Mr. Rob Anders |
1630
1635
| Mr. Paul Szabo |
1640
| Mrs. Elsie Wayne |
| Mrs. Carolyn Parrish |
1645
1650
| Mr. Art Hanger |
1655
| Mrs. Diane Ablonczy |
| Mr. John McKay |
| ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
|
| CANADA SHIPPING ACT, 2001
|
| Bill C-14. Introduction and first reading
|
| Hon. Don Boudria |
| GOVERNMENT ORDERS
|
1700
| SUPPLY
|
| Allotted Day—Maritime Helicopter Procurement
|
| Motion
|
| Mr. John McKay |
1705
| Mr. Scott Brison |
1710
| Mr. Art Hanger |
1715
| Mr. Gerald Keddy |
1720
1725
1730
| PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
|
| EMANCIPATION DAY
|
| Mr. Deepak Obhrai |
| Motion
|
1735
1740
| Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral |
1745
| Mrs. Marlene Jennings |
1750
1755
| Ms. Wendy Lill |
1800
1805
| Mr. Scott Brison |
1810
1815
| Mr. Deepak Obhrai |
(Official Version)
EDITED HANSARD • NUMBER 024
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Thursday, March 1, 2001
The House met at 10 a.m.
Prayers
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
1000
[Translation]
SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES(A), 2000-2001
A message from Her Excellency the Governor General transmitting
supplementary estimates (A) of the sums required for the fiscal
year ending March 31, 2001, was presented by the hon. President
of Treasury Board and read by the Speaker to the House.
* * *
1005
[English]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
have the honour to present the fifth report of the Standing
Committee on Procedure and House Affairs regarding the membership
of the Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages.
If the House gives its consent, I intend to move concurrence in
this fifth report later this day.
* * *
CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Canadian Alliance) moved
for leave to introduce Bill C-290, an act to amend the criminal
code (breaking and entering).
He said: Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to rise today on
behalf of the constituents of Calgary East to reintroduce my
private member's bill that would amend the criminal code to
impose a two year minimum sentence for repeat offenders of break
and enter crime.
Break and enter crime is not only a property offence. It is a
crime against a person. It is a psychologically damaging crime,
often leaving victims feeling personally violated and
traumatized. It has the potential to be a violent crime because
every break and enter is potentially a home invasion.
The bill is a victims amendment to the criminal code because the
result would be fewer victims by imposing a real deterrent on
professional break and enter criminals.
The bill would also cut what is a real source of revenue for
career criminals and organized crime by breaking the cycle of
proceeds of break and enter crime being used to finance other
criminal activities.
The courts need a clear direction from parliament that sets out
the concern Canadians about this very serious crime. I welcome
the support of my colleagues for this non-partisan initiative.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
* * *
[Translation]
SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES (A), 2000-01
REFERENCE TO STANDING COMMITTEES
Hon. Lucienne Robillard (President of the Treasury Board and
Minister responsible for Infrastructure, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 81(5) and 81(6), I
wish to introduce a motion concerning referral of the
Supplementary Estimates (A) to the standing committees of the
House.
There is a lengthy list of these committees associated with the
motion. If it is agreeable to the House, I would ask that the
list be printed in Hansard as if it had been read.
The Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
Hon. Lucienne Robillard: Mr. Speaker, I move:
That Supplementary Estimates (A) for the fiscal year ending
March 31, 2001, laid upon the table on March 1, 2001, be
referred to the several standing committees of the House in
accordance with the detailed allocation as follows:
[Editor's Note: List referred to above is as follows:]
(1) to the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs,
Northern Development and Natural Resources
Indian Affairs and Northern Development, Votes 1a, 5a, 15a, L20a, L21a,
25a, 30a, 35a and 40a
Natural Resources, Votes 1a, 5a, 15a, 20a and 30a
Agriculture and Agri-Food, Votes 1a, 5a, 10a, 20a, 25a, 30a and 36a
Canadian Heritage, Votes 1a, 5a, 15a, 35a, 40a, 45a, 50a, 55a, 65a, 70a,
75a, 85a, 90a, 100a, 105a, 110a, 125a and 130a
Privy Council, Vote 30a
Canada Customs and Revenue Agency, Votes 1a and 10a
Finance, Votes 5a, 30a, 34a and 35a
Foreign Affairs, Votes 1a, 5a, 10a, 20a, 25a, L30a, L35a and 45a
Health, Votes 1a, 5a, 6a, 7a, 10a and 25a
(10) to the Standing Committee on Human Resources
Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities
(11) to the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and
Technology
Industry, Votes 1a, 5a, 20a, 21a, 40a, 50a, 55a, 60a, 65a, 70a, 75a, 80a,
90a, 95a, 100a, 105a, 115a and 120a
Justice, Votes 1a, 5a, 10a, 15a, 20a, 25a, 30a, 35a, 40a and 50a
Privy Council, Vote 50a
Solicitor General, Votes 1a, 10a, 15a, 25a, 30a, 35a and 50a
National Defence, Votes 1a and 5a
Veterans Affairs, Votes 1a, 5a and 10a
Parliament, Vote 5a
Privy Council, Vote 20a
Canadian Heritage, Vote 120a
Privy Council, Votes 1a, 5a, 10a, 15a, 45a and 55a
Public Works and Government Services, Votes 5a, 11a, 15a and 20a
Transport, Votes 1a, 10a, 30a and 35a
Treasury Board, Votes 1a, 2a, 10a, 15a and 20a
(Motion agreed to)
* * *
[English]
COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
PROCEDURE AND HOUSE AFFAIRS
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.) Mr. Speaker, if the
House gives its consent, I move that the fifth report of the
Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, presented to
the House earlier this day, be concurred in.
The Speaker: Does the House give unanimous consent for
the hon. parliamentary secretary to propose this motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Speaker: The House has heard the terms of the motion.
Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Motion agreed to)
* * *
1010
PETITIONS
KIDNEY DISEASE
Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as
this is kidney month I should like to present two petitions from
people who are concerned about those who have kidney disease.
The first petition is signed by hundreds of people from the
Peterborough region who point out that kidney dialysis and
transplantation have been valuable and continue to be useful, but
that there are difficulties with dialysis treatments and that the
rates of organ donation are not sufficient to meet the needs.
Therefore they call upon parliament to work and support research
toward the bioartificial kidney, which will eventually eliminate
the need for both dialysis and transplantation for those
suffering from kidney disease.
The second petition is signed by many people in Peterborough and
central Ontario who point out that kidney disease is a huge and
growing problem, which they want us to note especially during
kidney month.
They also point out that progress is being made in various
treatments, but they call upon parliament to encourage the
Canadian Institutes of Health Research to explicitly include
kidney research as one of the institutes in its system, that
institute to be named the institute of kidney and urinary tract
diseases.
MOUNT LOGAN
Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.): Lastly, Mr.
Speaker, there are still people concerned about the renaming of
Mount Logan. My understanding is that this is no longer an
issue, but I have recently received a petition that urges
parliament to put on hold efforts to rename Mount Logan until
such time as this and other suggestions concerning memorials to
Pierre Elliott Trudeau have been properly assessed.
* * *
[Translation]
QUESTIONS ON THE ORDER PAPER
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would
ask that all questions be allowed to stand.
The Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
[English]
SUPPLY
ALLOTTED DAY—MARITIME HELICOPTER PROCUREMENT
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC) moved:
That this House call on the
government to eliminate the barriers in the Letter of
Interest to the aerospace industry, which impede a fair and
open Maritime Helicopter Project, and that maritime
procurement be conducted on a “best value to the Canadian
taxpayers” basis, in accordance with the Treasury Board
guidelines.
She said: Mr. Speaker, I should like to inform the Chair that I
intend to split my time this morning with the member for St.
John's West, Newfoundland. You have Saint John, New Brunswick,
here and you will have St. John's West, Newfoundland. Boy, when
they come from Saint John and St. John's, the Liberals better
look out.
The motion we debate today cuts to the very heart of an issue
that has seized the attention of the House and indeed of the
country for some time. In my seven years in this place I have
risen many times to speak against the government's actions on
defence and speak out for the military.
In the last seven years we have watched as our military forces
were cut. We have seen a near constant decline in troop morale.
We have witnessed countless equipment failures, all due to
government neglect. That which we will discuss today is
certainly the most outrageous and offensive example of government
interference and misconduct I have ever seen.
I need not tell the House that in August of last year the
Minister of National Defence and the Minister of Public Works and
Government Services initiated a program to replace our aging Sea
King helicopters, something they had promised to do by the year
2000 in their 1994 defence white paper.
I need not tell the House that the procurement process put in
place has come under serious attack by stakeholders in the global
aerospace industry. I need not even tell the House that the
majority of those now sitting on the government side were elected
in 1993 on a promise to cancel a helicopter contract to replace
the same Sea Kings still in use today, which cancellation cost
taxpayers anywhere from $800 million to $1 billion.
The Canadian armed forces are in need of our help. Our men and
women in uniform cannot come up here, as so many others do, with
placards to protest the injustices committed against them.
1015
These people need safe equipment capable of doing the difficult
jobs that we all assign to them. We ask the sons and daughters
of our Canadian families to lay their lives on the line for each
and every one of us in the Chamber. We send them to every corner
of the globe. We in the House therefore have the great
responsibility and awesome duty to afford them all the protection
and security that we can.
That protection will come with cost, costs that can either be
financial or even political in nature. I stand here today to
tell everyone that the government is so worried about paying the
political costs of replacing the Sea Kings that it has distorted
the tendering process to undermine competition so that it is not
embarrassed one more time. The government has already decided
who is going to get the helicopter replacement contract. That is
very clear.
I could talk about political trades between this government and
the governments in Europe. I could talk about industrial
exchanges, a helicopter contract there for a manufacturing plant
here, but let me for the moment just share a little story.
Last May, a caucus colleague of mine, someone who now sits on
the government side, came to me with a conspiracy theory. He
said the government was going to award the Sea King replacement
contract to a company called Eurocopter. As history and
Hansard will record, my colleague at that time and I rose
in the House and called on the Minister of National Defence to
deny the story. He did.
The minister stood and told us “all that sounds like a lot of
nonsense to me.” However, within months, within three short
months to be exact, the minister stood in another place and
announced a procurement process so strict that it, to the eyes of
many, eliminated all of the competition but Eurocopter. The
minister and his colleagues produced a document. To be specific,
it was a letter of interest addressed to the aerospace industry.
That document and the problems it contained is the reason I stand
here today.
The letter of interest showed for the first time that it would
be “the lowest price compliant” bid that would be chosen.
First, it means that no matter what aircraft competes, even if it
is only of marginal ability, as long as it meets the statement of
requirement and is the cheapest helicopter, it will be selected.
If an operationally marginal competitor is even $1 cheaper than a
helicopter with 100% more operational capacity, then saving a
dollar will win that contract. That is a disgrace. All this
despite the fact the treasury board guidelines 9.1.1 and 9.1.2
state clearly that government procurement should be done on the
best value.
That document opened the door to a process with certification
deadlines and technical requirements that penalized some of the
most respected helicopter manufacturers in the world. It opened
the door to a procurement process so alien to both logic and
reason that major industry stakeholders took one look at it and
scratched their heads.
The House knows that one company was so disadvantaged by the
letter of interest that it was compelled to take the matter
before the Canadian International Trade Tribunal, and now the
Federal Court of Appeal.
There are companies that are beginning to say that the process
is so flawed and so biased that they might not even waste their
efforts making a bid. However the process did not hurt all
companies. The only group that is in no clear way disadvantaged
by the current competition rule is Eurocopter and its Cougar MK2.
Let us look at the process itself. In their exalted wisdom, the
powers that be on the government side chose to split the
contract. Never have we seen this done before. Instead of a
single contract there will be a process to obtain a basic vehicle
and a second process to obtain the vital mission system.
In both cases, even with different possible contracts for
maintenance and upkeep, there is no question that this will mean
increased cost.
1020
So that the everyday ordinary citizen knows what the government
is planning to do, it is like saying to Canadians that they
should go out and buy a car with no air conditioning, no radio,
no speedometer, no tires and then go out a second time and buy
all those things and have them installed at a later time. That
is exactly what the government is doing with the helicopters. It
is foolishness for certain. Worst still it is foolishness with a
political motive.
If the proper tendering process was used, the worst case
scenario for the defence minister is that he would have to walk
outside these doors and announce that the company that won the
bidding process fair and square is the very company that this
government snubbed seven years ago.
The government knows it made a big mistake in 1993. It is now
willing to manipulate the bidding process so that it is anything
but fair. Therefore, it will not have to give the contract to
the company that can replace these aging Sea Kings and do what is
right for our men in the military.
Do Canadians know that there is a special cabinet committee
through which all decisions related to this process must pass? I
do not think the members know about this. Do Canadians know that
the special cabinet committee is so shrouded in secrecy that it
is difficult to know who is actually making the decisions? Do
Canadians know that with the help of this committee the
government ignored the recommendations of the defence department
to avoid the political suicide that a fair process might entail?
We are way beyond giving money to golf courses and hotels here.
This is not a little problem that the cabinet can sweep under the
carpet. We are talking about billions and billions of taxpayer
dollars. We are talking about corruption and abuse of power at
the highest levels. We are talking about the government
sacrificing its own rules and guidelines to force an outcome that
does not make it look bad. If things are not changed we will end
up with a helicopter less capable than the aged Sea Kings we have
had in use for decades.
I am using the strongest words I know to express the anger and
shame I feel. I am using the boldest language allowed in the
Chamber to warn Canadians of the deceit and dishonesty that we
have discovered. I say let us do the right thing. Let us
correct the injustice where we find it. Let us do what we were
elected to do. If we do not we will dishonour those who came
before us and those who defend us from evil if we do not.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Mississauga South, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
the member referred to a hypothetical situation where a bidder
would bring forward a proposal with 100% more functionality for
$1 more in cost than another and that it would be shameful if the
government chose the cheaper one when for an extra dollar it
could get 100% more functionality.
Does the member feel that it is appropriate for a bidder to
provide a proposal which meets the requirements the government
laid out in its request for proposal, or should there be an
investment in functionality well beyond the requirements which
clearly would require more maintenance, more after costs and
probably more development? In fact, the development would
probably not be complete in time for the certification time
frame.
Is the member saying to the House that we should spend extra
money to get functionality which is not required?
Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Madam Speaker, with respect to the
letter of interest that was sent out, only one company, and I
stated who that company was, qualifies to bid. I will tell the
member what it can produce for our military.
The only group not disadvantaged by the current competition
rules is Eurocopter and its Cougar MK2. It is the cheapest
aircraft and is based on 1970 technology and design.
1025
The Cougar was just excluded from a four nation Scandinavian
maritime helicopter competition for the challenging North Sea and
Arctic Ocean environment, which is so operationally similar to
our cold hazardous North Atlantic. It could not do the work. It
will not be able to do the work here either. Everyone here knows
that we need helicopters that will be able to look after the
Atlantic, Pacific and North Atlantic. However the way in which
this tender has been put out we will not get them.
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Canadian Alliance):
Madam Speaker, I applaud the member for Saint John for her very
passionate delivery and support for the military. I am a member
of another opposition party, but for some time she has fought for
the military's benefit in both procurement and quality of life
issues. I commend her on her delivery. She also knows some of
the problems that have arisen with this procurement process. She
has spelled it out to those across the floor. They are
shortchanging the military.
I will ask her to speak a little about the procurement process.
She implied through her presentation that there was something
wrong with the changing of the statement of requirement on that
particular procurement for the maritime helicopter. She alluded
to some of this in her reference to the letter of interest. There
was a process that took place prior to that letter being
delivered which dealt with getting the military to say it would
change its mind from the EH-101, which is the helicopter that we
know will be suitable for this climate, to something far less.
Could the member talk about the process prior to that letter of
interest being delivered?
Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Madam Speaker, our military people have
already written a letter stating that the letter of interest is
political suicide. It is not good for the military.
We have the top ranks telling us it is wrong. However, they
have been told to stay out of it because that private little
cabinet committee is making all the decisions. That is not the
way we function in the House of Commons. That is not what we
should do for our men and women in the military.
Mr. Loyola Hearn (St. John's West, PC): Madam Speaker, it
is a pleasure to participate in a debate on such a crucial issue.
I congratulate my colleague from Saint John for bringing it to
the House. This is an issue that has been discussed for years in
parliament, and certainly in the country, for a number of
reasons. It is mainly because we are proud Canadians. One of
the agencies that causes us to be so proud is our armed forces.
When we ask people to defend us we expect that we will provide
them with the best possible equipment to do the job. We send
hockey teams onto the ice. For many years Canada, as a proud
nation, has watched these teams. They have been made up of
people from many nationalities who live all over the country.
They have worn the Canadian red and white sweater with pride
while representing us.
Those of us who are a little older will perhaps remember the
1972 series that finished up in Russia. Undoubtedly each of us
can vividly recall the day when Paul Henderson scored the final
goal to win the series for Canada.
All of us felt very proud because these people were representing
our nation. They were representing our nation in combat but it
was a sports combat. For those of us who remember the series, we
might say it was more than a sports combat, it was an
international combat. However, what it did was open the doors
for friendlier feelings between us and other nations, especially
Russia. We showed that we were well prepared, well equipped and
we could do the job.
1030
On the other hand, we send our armed forces into combat where,
instead of the high stick that might knock out a tooth or cause a
few stitches here and there or the odd concussion that goes with
hockey, we are asking them to put their lives on the line. Not
only did we do it during the great wars and other international
conflicts, but we do it all the time, even in our peacekeeping
efforts.
As we send out our forces, our representatives, those who go to
the front lines for us, we do not know from day to day what kind
of conflict they will be in. It is our duty to make sure that
they have the best equipment available.
When we hear stories about our armed forces today, how they are
not properly equipped, how the funding provided is so little that
they are living on the borders of poverty, how can we expect
anyone to give their all, which is what we ask of them, if we
treat them in such a manner?
A typical example is the helicopter issue that we are talking
about in the motion. What makes Canadians so upset is not the
fact that we are debating whether or not we are providing them
with the best helicopters. Unfortunately, under the present
tender calls, we will probably not get the best and that is a
major concern. Canadians are perturbed by the fact that we have
been waiting so long for the machines. Canadians are also
perturbed by the petty politics that have been played this last
seven or eight years over this issue.
One of the key planks in this government's platform, which is
now cowering under pressure, is to provide helicopters. The
helicopters would have been provided long ago if it had supported
the original idea to purchase the Sea Kings. In the 1993
election, the then Tory government was ridiculed for the
excessive amount of money it planned to spend on helicopters. It
was told that it should be able to provide helicopters at a
cheaper cost.
We heard, in a very sneaky manner during the last election, this
government talk about the need to provide helicopters and how it
could be done much cheaper than the Tory government was going to
do. Unfortunately, people sometimes talk in half truths.
If someone today wanted to buy a car for $20,000 and I promised
I could sell the person a car for $15,000, what I would not be
telling the person is that my car is not as good as the one that
he or she intends to buy. If someone wanted buy a fleet of cars
for a million dollars and I told that person that I could sell
him or her a fleet of cars for three-quarters of a million
dollars, what I would not be telling him or her is that the
number in his or her fleet is much greater than the number in the
fleet that I am talking about. It is very easy to confuse people
if we do not look at the minute details.
The people of Canada certainly have been confused and deceived
for years by this government in relation to the provision of
equipment for the armed forces. This goes right back to 1978,
when it talked about the need to replace the Sea King. That was
23 years ago. We are talking about replacing equipment needed by
the people who serve us, who represent us on the first lines.
What an insult to the intelligence of Canadians. What an insult
to the people in our armed forces.
1035
In 1992 the Mulroney government approved a replacement of the
Labrador search and rescue and Sea King maritime helicopter fleet
with a common helicopter EH-101. The new fleet was ordered at a
cost of $4.3 billion, which is what started the big opposition:
the cost of helicopters.
When we look now at what we are getting, we find we do not know
what we are getting. That is the problem. If we knew what we
were getting perhaps we could have some intelligent commentary on
it. However, it would not be from us in here. I doubt that
there are many people in this whole assembly who know very much
about the workings of a helicopter. Some might pretend, and
perhaps we do have some people who have spent some time in the
field as pilots, mechanics or whatever, but I would suggest that
very few really know.
However, whether we know anything about it or not, when we find
out that the package will come in four different unrelated
components, we sort of wonder what we will get when it is all put
together. That is a major concern. By the time we do something
like that, put it together, take the final product and divide the
numbers into the total cost, it will be very interesting to see
the unit price compared to the unit price of the original
suggestion made by the Tory government back in 1993.
The motion reads:
That this House call upon the government to eliminate the
barriers in the Letter of Interest to the aerospace industry,
which impede a fair and open Maritime Helicopter Project, and
that maritime procurement be conducted on a “best value to the
Canadian taxpayers” basis, in accordance with the Treasury Board
guidelines.
I do not think the motion is good enough because when we ask
government to do something, we never know when it will do it. I
suggest we strengthen the motion with another word. Therefore, I
move:
The motion would then read:
That this House call upon the government to immediately eliminate
the barriers in the Letter of Interest to the aerospace
industry—
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): Debate is on the
amendment.
1040
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
listening to the debate on the opposition motion today I am
hearing a moderate amount of negativity. I am puzzled where that
might come from, but I understand that partisanship lends itself
to creation of negativity from time to time.
However, one should note that the armed forces and our
government, on behalf of Canadians, have successfully gone
through a procurement of a search and rescue helicopter, which is
a fairly sophisticated procurement initiative. I think the
initiative was very successful. I believe we are on the verge of
accepting the first of those search and rescue helicopters to
replace the existing older search and rescue helicopters, the
Chinooks, that are now in place.
If the government has, in my view, successfully gone through a
procurement initiative to obtain the search and rescue
helicopter, that process being almost complete now, why is it
that members opposite would just presume or assume that a second
initiative to replace the Sea Kings, the maritime helicopter,
could turn out to be an alleged mess? I will not use some of the
other negative words, but how could the government have suddenly
taken a turn to go so wrong, when in my view it has appeared to
operate so well in procuring the new search and rescue
helicopter?
Mr. Loyola Hearn: Madam Speaker, when we talk about
conflict or wars, one of the words that we always hear is
brainwashing. It seems that the members opposite have been very
well brainwashed in relation to the procedures that we are
dealing with here.
What concerns us and I am sure Canadians is not that we are
seeking information in relation to the replacement of the
helicopters. It is the matter of the rules and restrictions that
are being placed on them to prohibit the best type of helicopter
that would replace what we have.
Perhaps we should be asking why some of these restrictions are
in place. That might be something we will follow up at another
time. The bottom line is that if we are going to have the best,
then we should have the opportunity to get the best, not a
bargain basement price where we usually get what we pay for.
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Canadian Alliance):
Madam Speaker, I have listened to the member for St. John's West
on this very important initiative, the procurement of the
maritime helicopter. His party knows the history, more than any
other party in the House, about what it took to bring that
procurement up to this point.
Governments have been trying to pick a maritime helicopter for
over 30 years. The Conservative Party initiated the procurement
process to purchase this helicopter. The military went through a
long process in picking the best helicopter for the conditions
that it would be faced with.
I ask the member, what does he think the helicopter should be
like, given the fact that it was his party that chose it? Could
he also tell us why it was chosen?
Mr. Loyola Hearn: Madam Speaker, the answer is very
simple. If we are going to send our people to the front lines,
we should provide them with the best equipment that is available.
1045
The original undertaking by the Tory government to provide
helicopters to the armed forces ended with the decision to buy
ones that would cost $4.3 billion. That was opposed, as hon.
members know, by the government opposite. The selection was made
because the Tory government thought those machines were the best
at that time. All we ask now is that the current government, in
purchasing equipment for our armed forces, buy what is best for
them.
[Translation]
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano (Minister of Public Works and Government
Services, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to take part in the
debate this morning. It gives me the opportunity to explain how
my department intends to manage this important project so that
the contract for the purchase of the helicopters needed by the
Department of National Defence for its maritime operations may
be concluded at a reasonable cost to Canadian taxpayers.
The people of Canada realize that the country needs a fleet of
combat capable helicopters for maritime operations.
The Department of National Defence and its representatives have
spent a lot of time and energy setting out Canada's needs in
this regard. The minister had the support of members of cabinet
in their acquisition and now it is my department's turn to
manage the purchase process.
[English]
I assure hon. members on all sides of the House that the process
will be fair, open, transparent and competitive. At the end of
the day we will have saved taxpayers $1.5 billion compared to the
former government's helicopter purchase project. That $1.5
billion can be invested in other worthwhile initiatives including
the new social justice initiative announced in the Speech from
the Throne.
I know that hon. members across the way will want to applaud the
government for its sound fiscal management. Canadians have
endorsed the Liberal approach of balancing tax and debt
reductions with strategic investment in the economy. Now it is
time to get on with the job.
It was my pleasure to be at the side of the Minister of National
Defence last August when he announced the government's intention
to proceed with the purchase of 28 maritime helicopters. Over
the past six months we have continued to develop and refine the
procurement strategy that will be used for the project.
Today I will update hon. members on various elements of the
strategy, including a number of innovative procurement practices
that will help ensure Canada gets the helicopters and the mission
system it needs at the lowest price.
[Translation]
Hon. members know that the project in question is intended to
replace the fleet of Sea King CH-124 helicopters of the Canadian
armed forces. The new helicopters will be equipped with
integrated mission systems designed to meet needs specific to
maritime operations. This state of the art equipment will give the
men and women of the Canadian armed forces the tools they need
to do their work better in demanding often dangerous operations.
Shortly after the maritime helicopter project was announced,
last August, the government released a letter of interest to
inform businesses of our intentions and our general requirements
and to discover their interest in the project.
The letter of interest also set out the purchasing strategy
planned, and the facts were confirmed. The project would
comprise two separate contracts: the first would pertain to
basic vehicles and the second, integrated mission systems. Long
term service support will be an element of both contracts.
[English]
The letter of interest had another goal, and that was to
initiate a dialogue with the industry. I am pleased to report
that we have been successful in that regard. Many of the
companies that responded to the letter of interest have also
provided helpful feedback on our statement of operational
requirements and procurement strategy.
We will respond to the comments and take the views of potential
bidders into account as the project unfolds over coming weeks and
months.
1050
The point I am making is that it is very much an open and
transparent process. Industry interaction is critical for large
projects such as this one. The release of the letter of interest
was a first step in our effort to encourage a dialogue with
industry.
[Translation]
One of our next steps will be to announce which companies have
expressed an interest in becoming the prime contractor for the
helicopters or the mission systems, or both, and meet the
criteria set in the letter of interest.
Unfortunately—and this is very important—no Canadian company makes
helicopters that comply with the requirements of the maritime
helicopter project. This means that the basic model will be
provided by a foreign supplier.
We think that several foreign companies can meet our needs and
we anticipate that a large number of companies will compete for
these contracts.
As for mission systems, I am pleased to say that Canadian
companies can provide such systems and that some have expressed
an interest in that regard. It is perfectly possible that a
Canadian company will be awarded that contract. We also expect
Canadian companies to bid for the two subcontracts.
Some wonder why it is necessary to have two different calls for
tenders to buy helicopters and mission systems.
The reason is very simple. We believe that, by using separate
calls for tenders, the state will get the helicopters and
services that it needs, and the necessary long term in-service
support, at the best possible price.
That approach will also allow a larger number of companies to
bid, since using a single contract would have the effect of
eliminating many Canadian companies that are interested in
becoming the prime contractor.
[English]
As a matter of general interest I confirm for hon. members that
the maritime helicopter project is exempt from the North American
Free Trade Agreement, from the WTO agreement on government
procurement, and from any restriction or requirement under
comprehensive land claims agreements. However the agreement on
internal trade will apply to the project.
As I mentioned a moment ago, the letter of interest released
last August has triggered a dialogue with industry. To
facilitate further industry interaction, the project management
office for the maritime helicopter project has established a
website to serve as the principal means of communicating with the
industry. The website will be a vital source of information for
potential prime contractors and others interested in the project.
We plan to use the site to make key technical requirements known
to all bidders as early as possible.
Toward this end, over the next few weeks the project management
office will post draft specifications and other documents on the
web that will eventually form part of the formal request for
proposals.
[Translation]
The progressive issuing of provisional RFPs will enable
interested companies to examine and comment on various aspects
of the maritime helicopter project. We will be able to make
changes to the technical requirements or other features of the
project based on their comments.
This dialogue will increase the likelihood that helicopter and
mission system hardware will be compliant with project
requirements, and will also make it possible to confirm that
interested companies can reasonably meet the government's
requirements.
Interested companies will have ample opportunity to examine the
provisional specifications for the base helicopter and to make
comments in this regard over a two-month period, after which we
will be launching an obligatory prequalification process.
1055
The prequalification process is unique in this project. In
fact, it is the first time we have used it for a project of this
magnitude. We want to avoid having tenders rejected because
they are non-compliant technically.
Preparing a tender is very expensive and the government must
work together with potential suppliers to keep the risks of
non-compliance to a minimum.
[English]
With this in mind, the prequalification process will be
conducted in advance of the formal submission of bids.
Prequalification will largely focus on the hardware aspect of the
bid based on the draft specifications. Separate prequalification
processes will be conducted for the basic helicopter and
integrated mission system.
In keeping with the overall approach being used for the project,
the prequalification process will involve a dialogue with
industry. Potential prime contractors will be expected to
provide a level of detail we would normally get in formal bids.
The technical information provided by each potential contractor
will be examined to ensure it conforms with the requirements set
out by the Department of National Defence.
This interactive approach will give industry an opportunity to
address any concerns we might have with its technical proposals
before it submits formal bids, thereby reducing the risk of
receiving non-compliant bids. Potential bidders who have not
achieved the prequalification status at least 30 days in advance
of the close of bids will be declared non-compliant. Their bids
will not be considered as part of the formal tendering process.
[Translation]
I would like to repeat that the prequalification process will
focus primarily on the technical aspects for each contract.
It will still be possible to declare a bid non-compliant if a
company does not meet the other requirements set out in the RFP,
such as those having to do with the statement of work,
management of the program, funding, and industrial and regional
benefits.
Members should also know that the inclusion of service support,
which is a separate component in each contract, is unique to
this project. Comprehensive maintenance and support services
for the helicopters and the mission systems will be required on
an ongoing basis.
The government anticipates that this service support will be
required for a period of approximately 20 years. For each
contract, this component will include an option to progressively
increase service support up until the end of the helicopters'
life cycle.
Service support, which is included in each RFP, will ensure that
we obtain a quality product, since the supplier will have to
assume long term responsibility for what he is delivering.
It will also allow the government to seek the maximum industrial
and regional benefits for each contract.
[English]
Some hon. members no doubt have questions about the timing of
different stages of the procurement process. Our procurement
plan is to ensure the formal RFP for the helicopter contract in
the fall. The RFP will have a three month closing date followed
by a two month evaluation process leading to the selection of the
successful contractor.
Our goal is to sign a contract for a basic helicopter as early
as possible in 2002, after which we will move quickly to the
issue of requesting formal proposals for the mission system. As
hon. members can appreciate, the two RFPs cannot proceed
simultaneously, as potential bidders for the mission system will
need to know which helicopter is to be purchased in order to
develop a proper integration plan.
The request for proposals for both contracts will set out strict
evaluation criteria for price, technical compliance, contractual
terms and conditions, and industrial regional benefits.
Specifically with regard to industrial regional benefits our goal
is to ensure that Canadian suppliers receive maximum benefits for
both contracts.
Consistent with the principles used for previous procurements,
we will be seeking industrial regional benefits equivalent to the
value of the contracts for both the helicopter and the integrated
mission system.
1100
[Translation]
In the case of the airframe, the contract will be awarded to the
prime contractor submitting the lowest proposal that complies
with all the terms. This proposal is to include the airframe,
the modifications, the related modifications to the ship and
service support.
In the case of the mission systems, the contract will be awarded
to the prime contractor whose proposal is the lowest. This
proposal is to include the costs of the mission package of the
maritime helicopters and service support.
My colleague, the Minister of National Defence, informed the
House that the maritime helicopters were the first priority of
his department in equipment procurement. Worth nearly $2.9
billion, this proposed purchase is also the largest under my
department's management at the moment.
My department is the largest procurement organization in Canada.
We have vast experience in the management of major government
supply projects, including the purchase of defence materiel. I
can therefore assure the House that my department is able to
carry the maritime helicopter project to a successful
conclusion.
I want also to assure my hon. colleagues that the transparent
and competitive process we have put in place will ensure that
all those tendering will be treated fairly, that taxpayers'
money will be carefully invested and that, finally, the purchase
of these maritime helicopters will meet Canada's needs for many
years to come.
[English]
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Madam Speaker, we
have an access response from DND that states that the maritime
helicopter program office in DND never initiated the
recommendation to split the maritime helicopter program and make
purchases based on lowest price compliance.
As all government departments must agree before it leaves
cabinet, public works recommendations had to be the same as DND.
DND did not agree on what was being proposed by the Minister of
Public Works and Government Services and the Minister of National
Defence.
Could the minister please tell us why it is going in this
direction? Furthermore, how could they possibly at this time
enter into an agreement? In New Brunswick the Learn Stream
company, the president and CEO of Lockheed Martin Canada, has
already signed a memorandum of understanding with them. I
thought we had not made a decision yet. Why are we out signing
agreements with companies, such as the one in Fredericton, in my
province, that are in pursuit of the federal government's $2.8
billion maritime helicopter program?
The government recognizes the need to secure the very best in
training systems and the Learn Stream expertise in the
development of custom courseware and learning technologies, helps
to fulfil this requirement.
The government has already entered into agreements with
companies and yet we are supposed to be discussing who gets the
contract. I have never seen this done before. I am sure it has
never happened in the House before.
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano: Madam Speaker, I do not know where
the hon. member gets her information but definitely she has it
all wrong.
First, in August it was the Minister of Finance. I said, if
they would have listened to my speech, that I was at the side of
the Minister of National Defence when he announced the
procurement, strategy and intention of the government. This was
a government decision. It was not a decision by the Minister of
Public Works and Government Services or the Minister of National
Defence. The government stands behind this decision.
Concerning the second part of the member's question, I do not
know where she got the information but there is no agreement with
any company. We sent a letter of interest. We got proposals and
we opened dialogue and discussions. There is no signed agreement
with anybody.
I am really surprised and shocked to see that while we are going
through the process, the hon. member has decided to fight about
what company should get the contract. It is unfair since we have
an open process.
1105
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Canadian Alliance):
Madam Speaker, I certainly listened to the minister carefully
because I too had some questions on the way this particular
procurement initiative has been set up.
Clearly he pointed out that there would be two contracts left:
one for the airframe, basically the helicopter airframe, and the
other one for the mission kit. Is that not correct?
Because there are two contractors, who will be the prime
contractor? Will it be the Government of Canada?
If the mission kit does not quite fit into the airframe, or if
something has to be adjusted, holes cut in the frame or whatever,
who will be liable for that if it does not work?
Who will be liable if one contractor does not like the way the
other contractor configured a certain part of the airframe or
vice versa? Will the government then have to come and intervene?
Why is there not a prime contractor and why was it not let?
I know for a fact that the government was advised not to do it
this way but it went ahead and did it anyway.
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano: Madam Speaker, first, the reason
for making two contracts is that we wanted to have more
competition. This will give more companies, especially more
Canadian companies, the possibility to participate in this major
procurement.
Second, there will be a primary contractor. The primary
contractor will be, according to the letter of interest that we
put forward and received comments on and to which we will
respond, the integrated mission control contractor.
In this industry, companies make associations with each other.
Why have an open competition process when these companies can
make agreements among themselves for the benefit of the Canadian
taxpayer?
That is why we are doing it this way. I am surprised again how
they take a pre-position for one company when there are so many
companies interested in the project.
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Madam Speaker, from what the minister just said,
and I say this with all due respect, the reality is that this is
simple nonsense.
The fact is that this contract was split to exclude one
particular company, the company that had the original EH-101. If
the government decided that possibly that company would have been
the most successful bidder today, then we would be asking the
government why it cancelled the contract in 1993 in the first
place. That is the reality.
I have the following question for the minister. When the
initial tender process for the helicopters went out, it stated
that it was “mandatory” that it be completed by 2005. Now we
have word that it has been changed to read that it would be
“preferred” to have the helicopter replaced by 2005.
Would the minister please explain the change?
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano: Madam Speaker, first, this process
does not exclude anybody. To the contrary, it includes everybody
to compete. If the Cormorant wants to compete, it can compete.
It is very good.
This procurement strategy is to make sure that Canadians get the
best for their tax dollars and that they get the best equipment
the defence needs. The government cancelled the contract because
it does not need to spend so much money. This strategy will save
Canadian taxpayers $1.5 billion that we can invest in health, in
social justice and other things that Canadians need.
Mr. Peter Stoffer: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. My question was quite clear. I asked why the change in
the wording of the contract from mandatory to preferred.
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): That is not a point
of order.
1110
Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Madam
Speaker, the distinguished member for Saint John mentioned in her
speech that one would never buy a motor vehicle without the
frame, the tires, the transmission and the air conditioning.
That struck a chord with me being a car dealer for 18 years.
I will point out that the Ford Motor Company just announced that
it has had so much trouble separating the contract for regular
cars and police equipped cars that it has come together with its
contractor to produce one package. It will now have one package
for electronics, navigation and communications, with which police
cars are equipped. It has all come together because there was no
accountability. Nobody was ever held responsible if there was a
defect or a change.
How can the minister separate the air frame from the mission
package on helicopters when he knows that private industry has
proven this to be a defective approach?
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano: Madam Speaker, we had fruitful
discussions after the letter of interest was sent out to the
industry. The way this procurement would go ahead is that,
first, we would have the competition for procurement of the basic
helicopter. Once that competitive process is over and we have
chosen a base helicopter, the other competition will start. In
the second competition the industry will now know the model of
helicopter we will have chosen.
This is a very sophisticated industry and an industry that works
with each other. We have been seeing consortiums on purchases of
this nature around the world. Why can consortiums not be within
the competitive process for the taxpayers' benefit? Why do
multinationals always have to always get the benefit instead of
Canadians?
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Canadian Alliance):
Madam Speaker, I should point out that I will be sharing my time
with my colleague from Vancouver Island North.
Before I jump into the discussion on the Sea King replacement, I
would like to begin by thanking all the people in my riding for
the valiant effort they put forward in my successful re-election.
I am very appreciative of the democratic process. I saw it in
full action in my riding for eight months, although it was almost
a year if we include the election. A lot of campaigning went on
during the nomination process and my membership reached 15,000,
the largest membership in Canada. I had 10,000 constituents who
came out to the polls for my nomination. It was very
significant. I am very grateful for their involvement in my
nomination and election. My election was rather like a cakewalk
after the nomination. My deepest gratitude goes to those people
who participated and helped out so much.
I will now go on to the Sea Kings, which has been an issue for
quite some time. Discussions and efforts to replace the Sea
Kings, the maritime helicopter, have been going on for over 30
years. It began in the early seventies and we are no closer now
than we were back then.
The issue was studied at length under the Conservative
government of the day and a decision was made, I believe, in 1992
to replace the helicopter and give our military personnel
something they could use, feel safe in and something for which
they would be proud.
Everyone in the House knows what unfortunately happened to that
project in the 1993 election. A decision was made by the Liberal
government and the Prime Minister of the day to shut down that
project. I have never heard a good excuse as to why it was shut
down. There have been excuses rendered, but I said a good
excuse.
1115
I have had an opportunity to see a lot of our equipment, as have
other members on both sides of the House. They have had the
opportunity to look at the equipment our military personnel have
to work with. The Sea King is one of the oldest helicopters and
is definitely in need of replacement. Its limitations jeopardize
those who use the equipment as well as those who may depend on
our personnel for help.
I feel very frustrated given the fact that we have sat in the
opposition in the House since 1993. We have pushed the
government to bring about closure on this issue and give our
troops some good equipment. It just was not to be. It is still
not to be for several years to come.
I do not know how much longer our Sea Kings will last or how
many more lives will be lost. Lives have been lost by personnel
using this equipment. It is an unnecessary jeopardy of members
of our military personnel. They work in a most unusual
environment. Even with good equipment they sometimes lose their
lives. We saw that happen not too long ago, but to jeopardize
lives unnecessarily by allowing them to continue to use old
equipment is another matter.
Prior to the last election we submitted a policy paper dealing
with military issues called “Canada Strong and Free”. It makes
mention of the need for having proper equipment. There are
experienced people who know what proper equipment means.
One section in that pamphlet included an idea that we wanted to
put forward in an effort to try to fill a need in our military.
It said that we should have corvettes with helicopters on them as
a means of patrolling and as a means of readiness. Our booklet
was circulated to ex-military personnel and to the military. Many
experts had a good look at it. The feedback indicated that it
was not a very good idea to have a corvette ship with helicopters
on it because of the size of a corvette.
Experienced personnel said that we were crazy if we thought they
would go back to corvettes in the North Atlantic, the roughest
seas in the world. It would not be a suitable way to spend
taxpayer money. That came from an expert. We are certainly open
to changes and suggestions. I think in this case that is exactly
what must be done. The experts know the environment in which the
equipment will be operating.
If the Eurocopter happens to be the choice of the government on
the other side, it is a dreadful mistake.
An hon. member: Where are they?
Mr. Art Hanger: I hear the hon. member. Where are they?
That helicopter is no bigger or more powerful than the Sea King
that is operating on our frigates now, which is 40 years old. It
has no more capacity than our present equipment. Why are we
replacing a helicopter considered too old and unable to meet the
conditions of the day with something almost comparable except
somewhat newer? That is the only difference. Why would that be
happening?
1120
I have question for the government across the way. Is it
because back in 1993 the Prime Minister decided to cancel that
cadillac project, as he called it, at the expense of the military
and for the benefit of gaining votes? Is that the reason it was
cancelled and is no longer being considered?
Twenty years of progress in trying to come up with the right
piece of equipment is finally reached, and what happens? It
becomes political. The member across the way mentioned something
about partisanship. I do not know how much more partisan we can
get than ripping something away that is legitimately needed, in
this case by our military, because of a political advantage that
might be gained. I think there is something cynical about that.
That is the past. Today is the present. Since that time there
has been an effort to change the statement of requirements so
that something less or something other than the one that was
cancelled back in 1993 could possibly be selected. How can we go
about doing that? How can we change the statement of
requirements on which the military spent years and many millions
of dollars researching? All of a sudden we will change it into
something else and expect the military to support everything we
do.
We can talk to the rank and file in the military. As members
across the way will know, those who were part and parcel of the
project know that this is not what is required. They had already
made their selection and now the political masters will make them
change it and turn it all around.
My time is up. There is a real need to take the procurement
processes out of the hands of politicians until the final level
of negotiation is done. Unfortunately that is not the direction
in which the government is going.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Public Works and Government Services, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
the member suggests that decisions have already been taken. That
could not be further from the case.
As the minister laid out for the House, there is an ongoing
extensive process where the letters of interest were sent to
create a dialogue with the industry to determine what its
situation. We found that the helicopter market is much more
mature, much more developed than it was back when the situation
was dealt with by the former government.
It raises a question about procurement as a process. Public
Works and Government Services Canada provides professional
procurement services on behalf of all government departments and
agencies. In regard to this very important procurement that has
been presented to us by the Department of National Defence, our
objectives are to meet the specifications of the client, being
DND. That is precisely what we are doing. The process is to
satisfy the specifications required by the Department of National
Defence.
Public works and government services does not play around with
the specifications. By creating a dialogue with the industry we
ensure that the process we go through will meet those standards.
We want value. We want the lowest cost for the taxpayer and we
want to meet the specifications. We do not want anything more.
As the minister indicated, by splitting the request for proposal
into two pieces, one for the frame and one for the mission
system, it is quite frankly an opportunity to take advantage of
the mature marketplace that the helicopter industry and the
aerospace industry provide. I hope the member will inform
himself that there are many more interested parties now than
there ever were before.
1125
Does the member have a problem with a process that seeks to
procure the frame and the mission system in accordance with the
specifications of DND and the lowest cost for meeting those
specifications?
Mr. Art Hanger: Madam Speaker, that is a good question.
Do I have a problem? If the process were as open as the
government claims it to be I would have no problem, but that has
not happened.
We just have to go back a few years, during which time an effort
was made on the part of the government under the Deputy Prime
Minister, the Prime Minister's Office and the Privy Council
Office to change the statement of requirements on the maritime
helicopter from what the EH-101 specified, or the military
specified, into something more suitable for the frontline over
there. Is that open and transparent? No, it is not open and
transparent.
The member raised a good point. There is a need to consult. We
have to change the overall procurement process, not just in the
area of the military. I know other countries have done so. They
have included industry. They have included the public, the
government and the opposition where there was a unified voice
coming out of the house to do what was best for the military.
We do not have that now. It has become a very partisan issue.
The military has been chopped this way and that way because it is
easy to chop it. It is not a constituency that is all lumped
together in one spot. It is easy to pick on. It is easy to
knock down. It is easy to change the whole way of thinking
because of that fact.
There is not agreement in the House over what is best for our
military. It has become very partisan and I have to say it is
because of that side of the House.
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Madam Speaker, as members of parliament we
should not be advocating one company over another in the House.
We should be advocating a clear, open and transparent contract so
that all companies have fair bids on it.
In my earlier question to the minister of public works I said a
particular company was being excluded from the contract because
of the way the tender process was set up. I did not mention the
name of the company. The minister mentioned the name of the
company, which was Cormorant.
This obviously smacks and reeks of political interference. Could
the hon. member from the Alliance Party elaborate on that?
Mr. Art Hanger: Madam Speaker, the member raises the crux
of the whole matter. It shows how partisan the House has become
over issues that are beneficial to the overall country and in
this case to the military.
It has involved meetings behind closed doors to change things
that should never have been changed. It has defeated and
frustrated the efforts of experts and those who use this
equipment to the point where a malaise has set in. It has been
detrimental to our country and to our military.
Mr. John Duncan (Vancouver Island North, Canadian
Alliance): Madam Speaker, I remind everyone what we are
talking about today. We are talking about a supply day motion of
the Progressive Conservative Party, sponsored by the member for
Saint John. The basic crux of the motion is:
I am very grateful the member brought it forward.
Comox air force base is in my riding and I am delighted to
represent a riding encompassing this special place.
1130
In 1990 the budget for the Department of National Defence was
more than $12 billion. It had 85,000 members. The budget was
slashed by the government to $9 billion. It is now at $10
billion and its ranks have shrunk to 58,000. This week there are
noises from the government that it will add another $600 million,
basically for deserved wage increases.
Given the value of the dollar and the 11 year timeframe, is it
any wonder our military has been asked to do more and more with
less and less? Throughout this whole episode since 1993, the
government has been paying lip service to supporting the military
when in fact it has been callous and irresponsible in its
actions, particularly in terms of equipping our armed forces
personnel for the jobs at hand.
I was a candidate in the federal election in 1993. How well I
remember the Liberals making a huge issue of the EH-101
cancellation. They never suggested we did not need helicopters.
They simply suggested it was the wrong one. Where are we now,
eight years later? Not a single maritime helicopter replacement
for the Sea Kings has yet been ordered.
Search and rescue helicopters will be delivered to the west
coast. We will have five in Comox this year and we will have the
operational training centre in Comox. Search and rescue
capabilities will be filled over the next year and a half, none
too soon.
The Sea Kings are ancient. They are a national embarrassment.
The $600 million paid to cancel the 43 Cormorant helicopters
ordered in 1993 was a problem at the time. Cancellation was a
problem because Canada really needed new helicopters then. We
need them now more than ever.
The search and rescue helicopters ordered in December 1997 are
the same helicopters that the government cancelled in 1994 at
great cost to the taxpayer. the Parliamentary Secretary to the
Minister of National Defence questions whether we have a problem
with this process. Yes, we sure do, because we are not naive.
I will quote at some length from Greg Weston, Sun Media national
political columnist. I would rather do that than plagiarize. He
encapsulates very well what is common knowledge in national
defence and political circles, both nationally and unfortunately
internationally. This is an international embarrassment. He
states:
Now, buying Cormorant helicopters from the same British-Italian
consortium that got $600 million of public money for (the Prime
Minister's) cancelling of the original contract for Cormorant
helicopters—well, the political optics of this were not lost on
the bright lights in the Prime Minister's Office.
Enter (the Prime Minister) and Company. According to one
classified document, retired Ontario Chief Justice Charles Dubin
was hired by the justice department to give “a legal
opinion—in connection with the procurement of search and rescue
helicopters”. He found nothing to justify voiding the Cormorant
bid.
The Department of Government Services hired the accounting firm
KPMG—
This is a respected outfit. He continues:
Finally, sources tell us that the PM appointed—his trusty
deputy PM and all-purpose political fixer to head up a secret
cabinet committee, presumably to ensure that bidding was fair,
open, honest—and not won by the Cormorant.
In December 1997, (the Prime Minister) headed south for his
usual month of golf, reassured by the military that the Cormorant
bid was history. But a funny thing happened on the way to the
contracting office. (The Deputy Prime Minister) had to phone
(the Prime Minister) in Florida to tell him the Cormorant had
won. (So apparently had the Defence Department which had so
effectively bamboozled the PM.)
(The Prime Minister's) response to this news was described to us
as largely unprintable.
In early 1998 (yes, after the election) the Liberal government
decided to call bids for another 28 multi-purpose military
helicopters, bringing the total new fleet to 43—the same number
the Tories had ordered and (the Prime Minister) had cancelled
five years before. This time (the Prime Minister) and Co. left
little to chance.
In one memo to Air Force Commander L. C. Campbell, a fellow
officer began: “Assuming there will be a competition to select
the new maritime helicopter, it is quite possible that the
Cormorant might win it”. He then asked: “Even though the
Cormorant is politically unacceptable (“political suicide” as
you said), how do you ensure that it does not win a maritime
helicopter competition?“ And: “If the Cormorant were to win a
military helicopter competition on its merits, wouldn't we again
be in the same position of being accused of tricking the
government?”
Finally: “Do you think the Cabinet would just opt to select
the second place finisher if the Cormorant were to be winner of a
competition?”
1135
Does the parliamentary secretary now understand why we are
suspicious, why we are not naive?
The bottom line is that this knowledge within the Department of
National Defence, in political circles and for anyone close to
this subject is the motivation for this motion. The government
thinks it is politically embarrassing for it to allow an
objective, unbiased, non-partisan analysis of the Sea King
replacement proposals and insiders are aware that the fix is in.
The men and women in our armed forces and Canadian taxpayers
deserve to be treated with respect and the government needs to
take a principled position, not a political position, on such an
important issue. Shame on the government. Shame on the Prime
Minister's Office for allowing this to become a political
exercise, for leaving our military in the lurch without
replacement maritime helicopters and for corrupting the process.
The member for Saint John, the mover of the motion, has been
eloquent this morning on this issue, as has the Canadian Alliance
critic. I support this motion.
I have other points I should like to make. If the initial
EH-101 contract had been filled, all search and rescue and
shipboard aircraft, none of which are flying now, would have been
flying four or five years ago. When a Sea King crashed in Saint
John in 1994 the then defence minister, who is now the transport
minister, asked Colonel Cody, then the base commander at
Shearwater, to keep a lid on the community with the promise there
would be a replacement by the year 2000. Colonel Cody complied,
but when the promises went unfulfilled, in retirement he felt
compelled to speak out.
Retired Canadian forces officers and Atlantic Canada senators
have formed Friends of Maritime Aviation to speak out against
tardiness of Sea King replacement. Collectively the retired
officers have flown more than 10,000 hours in the Sea Kings. The
blame rests with the Prime Minister.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Public Works and Government Services, Lib.): Madam Speaker,
the member says that the government has corrupted the process.
This is absolutely wrong and I want to lay out why.
We put out a letter of interest to advise the industry about the
government's intentions and requirements to determine the level
of interest in the project.
The letter of interest outlines the intended procurement strategy
and the fact that the project will involve two separate
competitions, one for the helicopter and one for the mission
system.
1140
The contracts will set out strict evaluation criteria for price,
technical compliance, contractual terms and conditions and
industrial and regional benefits, or IRBs.
We have a process. It is open. It is fair. It is transparent.
It has been laid out. All of the specs are on the Department of
National Defence website for all members to see and for the
aerospace industry to see.
Given that this is the process, which has been laid out very
clearly in the letter of interest to the aerospace industry, I
wonder if the member would not agree that this in fact is an
open, fair and transparent process.
Mr. John Duncan: Madam Speaker, I read a lot of military
history and a lot of regular political and other history. If we
do not pay attention to history, we are bound to repeat it. The
mistakes are ones that we have to pay attention to, along with
the other malfeasance.
I am not naive. We know this is not an open and fair process.
We know that the Prime Minister's office is trying to direct
where this contract goes. We know the Prime Minister's office
has an agenda. That is totally unprincipled and totally
inappropriate.
Our armed forces personnel, more than anyone else in the
country, are people who, when they sign an employment contract,
put more than a vocation into this. They are putting their lives
in the hands of their employer, the Government of Canada and our
armed forces. They do not deserve to be treated the way they are
being treated in this Sea King helicopter replacement program.
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Madam Speaker, I wish to compliment the hon.
member from Vancouver Island. As he has an air force base in his
riding so I have one in mine, Shearwater, where I believe most of
the replacements will hopefully eventually end up.
In an earlier question I had for the minister of public works, I
said that the way this tendering process is split basically
excludes a particular company from bidding on the contract. I
never mentioned the name of the company. In the minister's
reply, the minister said Cormorant, so even the government knows
the company that is being excluded from this process.
It is not for members of parliament to stand up in the House and
support one company over another one, but the member from
Vancouver Island is right when he says it is up to us to ensure
that all tendered contracts, especially for something as valuable
as armed forces, are as open and transparent as possible so that
everyone has an opportunity to bid fairly.
I wonder whether he could just elaborate on that, please.
Mr. John Duncan: Madam Speaker, I think the deduction the
member is making is the natural deduction to make.
Mr. Lynn Myers (Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General
of Canada, Lib.): Madam Speaker, the last time the member for
Saint John brought forward a procurement issue like this, the
member for Calgary Northeast, the critic, jumped right on the
bandwagon and away he went. As it turned out, the Canadian
International Trade Tribunal noted that in fact they were both
wrong.
Here we have another example of the reformed Alliance blindly
following the Tories in this case.
The point I want to make is this: why is it that the reformed
Alliance in 1993, in 1995 and again in 1997, wanted to cut
defence but finally, in the last election, talked about $2
billion? We have already done $2.3 billion.
1145
Why are they Johnny-come-latelies on this important issue? Why
do they call Atlantic Canada—
The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos): Would the hon. member
for Vancouver Island North provide a short answer?
Mr. John Duncan: Madam Speaker, I would be delighted to
take a very few seconds. The member is very consistent in the
kinds of questions he asks. They are generally not worth
responding to, so I will not.
[Translation]
Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ): Madam Speaker, as is my
custom and as this is my first speech since parliament
reconvened, I want to thank the constituents of Saint-Jean, who
have put their trust in me for a third time. I am very pleased
to represent them in this House.
Since I have 20 minutes to speak this morning, I will give the
House some incredible examples of injustice in my riding of
Saint-Jean, particularly where national defence is concerned.
There are several issues underlying today's debate.
People talk of transparency, but what has become transparent to
me is that there has been political interference in the issue
now before the House.
Let us not forget about Canadian content, because it is always
the same Canadian and Quebec taxpayers who have to foot the
bill. I think it is important to raise the issue of Canadian
content in this debate. Let me give as an example something that
happened in the riding of Saint-Jean.
I had the opportunity recently to tour, with the Minister of
National Defence, Canadian military facilities in Eritrea. We
heard nothing but praises for the new armoured vehicle, the LAV
III.
I remember asking the Minister of National Defence, here in this
House, why that contract was given to GM, in Ontario.
In my riding of Saint-Jean, Oerlikon had the expertise to carry
out the turret part of the contract. I wanted to know why the
turret part of the LAV III contract was not given to Oerlikon,
in Saint-Jean. The minister skirted around the issue but did not
answer the question. My goal was to create more jobs in the
riding of Saint-Jean, in Quebec, which is still part of Canada.
In the end, the armoured vehicle was built by GM, in Ontario,
and the turret, by Devco, in California. What I said was “It
does not make any sense. The taxpayers of Canada and of Quebec
are paying for this, and our money is being used to create jobs
elsewhere”.
We are talking about something very similar here today.
I will show, as my colleagues have done, that the process before
us is not completely transparent and that some companies are at
an advantage while others are at a disadvantage. This is bad in
the context of Canadian content.
Let me give a brief outline of the whole story. It all began at
the end of the Mulroney government. I clearly remember that.
There was an election campaign and the government wanted to buy
the Cadillac of helicopters, some fifty of them, at a cost of
$5.8 billion.
I also remember that the then leader of the opposition, who is
now the Prime Minister, kept repeating “We are going to cancel
this contract”. To the point where people later described it as
a farfetched election promise. The Liberals had promised all
sorts of things, so they had to at least fulfil some of their
promises.
And they fulfilled that one.
Mr. Gérard Asselin: It is like the GST.
Mr. Claude Bachand: Yes, just like they were going to eliminate
the GST. But they did not fulfil that one.
No sooner had the Prime Minister been sworn in than he met his
cabinet and cancelled the EH-101 contract. Of course, there are
costs involved in the cancellation of a contract that has
already been signed. That decision cost $500 million to Canadian
taxpayers. But nothing had been solved. The Sea King helicopters
were built in the sixties.
As the new critic on national defence issues, I am sometimes
told “Mr. Bachand, we want to take you for a helicopter ride”. I
am always careful to ask “In which one?” Because, even though I
am a rather brave man, I am very reluctant to fly in Sea King
and Labrador helicopters.
1150
So one contract was cancelled, at a cost of $500 million. We
have helicopters dating back to the 1960s and time marches on
and they have still not been replaced. A few years later, in
1998, the government said “It is really too dangerous and it is
costing us too much in upkeep. Let's buy 15 Cormorants”. This
was a $790 million contract, at $60 million each.
Cormorant EH consists of companies with consortiums here.
Consortiums are often involved. This one includes Bombardier,
Canadian Helicopter Corporation and Bristol.
I would remind the House that these are three Canadian
companies, one of which, Bombardier—and this is important for
us—is in Quebec and has extensive aeronautics expertise.
We therefore bought it. The Prime Minister met with the
President of France once or twice. Since I was not there,
naturally I am unable to comment on what was said between the
President of France and our Prime Minister. Suddenly, however,
the winds shifted towards Eurocopter, a consortium with a large
French component.
Nonetheless, we were committed to the 15 Cormorants which we
bought and which we will have delivered. Rather than say “Keep
this expertise and go for some continuity” the government is
saying “How can we get out of this now?” This is where the
letter of interest comes in. The government sets out
specifications.
His first specification: “We have bought 15 helicopters, and we
will now buy 28 more for maritime patrol and to replace the Sea
King fleet. Here is what we want from the companies. We outline
the requirements and tell them we do not want to spend more than
$925 million for 28 helicopters”. I remind the House that we
just bought 15 Cormorants at $60 million apiece. But now, we want
to get 28 more for $925 million. That is about $33 million
apiece.
We know very well that EH will probably be excluded. We do not
want to spend more than $925 million, and we are also saying that
the contract will go to the lowest bidder. It means that, for a
$1 difference between Eurocopter and EH, a Canadian consortium of
which Bombardier is a partner, the contract will go to
Eurocopter. We should also consider that EH is proposing an
helicopter which is often compared to a Cadillac, the top of the
line. But, for a $1 difference, we would rather buy a Lada.
That is what the letter of interest means. In other words, we
can buy from Eurocopter an helicopter with the technology of the
1970s. Scandinavians have just refused to buy their helicopters
for maritime patrol from Eurocopter because they consider this
aircraft not to be safe in Scandinavian weather. I remind you
that our own weather is quite similar. Weather conditions here
and in Scandinavia are rather similar.
We will settle for a Lada, when we could have a Cadillac for
$100 more. That is a problem. Besides, there will be no Canadian
content at all.
The work will be done elsewhere. The government will use $925
million provided by Quebec and Canadian taxpayers to have
helicopters built elsewhere. It seems to me that it should be a
government policy to have some Canadian content.
The decision in the letter of interest that I mentioned will
benefit some companies and penalize others. Certification
involves many technical details and there are companies that
will not be able to get that certification.
There is something else with regard to the best possible
price. This contradicts Treasury Board guidelines. Treasury
Board does not say the best price, but the best value.
To get the best value, it may be better to spend a few extra
millions and have helicopters that will be safe for our pilots
and our military personnel.
These helicopters will be used for surveillance and, sometimes,
for search and rescue operations. It is important to have some
flexibility and not say “The lowest bidder will be awarded the
contract”, knowing that Eurocopter will most likely be selected.
People are not interested in a technology that dates back to the
seventies, but this is what we will have.
1155
We will have another problem in ten or fifteen years. We will
very quickly have maintenance problems with that. It seems to
me that the Lada's reputation is not as good as the Cadillac's.
It seems to me that, when we buy a Lada, we are back at the
garage sooner for engine or body repairs. The same thing is
going to happen with these helicopters, except that we are
talking about $925 million.
In addition, another argument in support of awarding the
contract to EH is that we already have the expertise. We
already have of 15 EHs, the version we call the Chevrolet, as
compared to the Cadillac version the Progressive Conservative
Party wanted to buy in 1993.
There are some questionable decisions in all this.
It is hard to accept that we can exclude Canadian content like
that so readily. Bell Helicopter could even undertake to do the
assembly if EH were chosen. Companies such as CRL Technologies
are prepared to do the emergency lighting system for these
helicopters. All these people are going to be brushed aside.
We are talking about the possible creation of some 250 to 300
jobs in Quebec with this contract.
This is not what the government has decided to do, though. It
has decided to go elsewhere. It has decided to award a contract
in Europe, without Canadian content. We the taxpayers of Quebec
and Canada will simply be left with the bill.
It seems to me that I heard my Liberal colleagues talking about
transparency a while ago. The political meddling is
transparently obvious to me. Eurocopter was very upset at
losing the last contract for the 15 Cormorants.
The Prime Minister met with the President of France. They
agreed to say “We will try to do something for you”. They are
unable to say what this “something for you” is and to give the
contract to Eurocopter directly.
With the letter of interest before us, it amounts to the same
thing. The government is making life impossible for EH and
other companies. It is making it easy for Eurocopter. That
company will probably win the contract.
For us in the Bloc Quebecois, the political meddling in the
process is transparently obvious. What is more, Canadian content
has been totally ignored. It is important for us to have this
sort of debate.
Military procurement involves the purchase of huge amounts of
materiel. We should pay much more attention to seeing that our
taxes are having positive benefits here at home.
The Bloc Quebecois will therefore be very happy to support the
motion by the Progressive Conservative Party member. We agree
with them, and I think that the opposition members we heard this
morning agree with us as well. There has obviously been
political interference, and the government is completely
dropping Canadian content.
I hope that the government is going to learn something from this
discussion. Today, it is perhaps not too late to launch another
kind of call for tender which would truly benefit not just one
company which the government has its eye on, but everyone.
The government should use the Treasury Board directives on best
value, rather than seeking the lowest price, and it should try
to require Canadian content. I think that then it would be a
responsible government.
Unfortunately I have the impression that this will not be
possible. I think that today's debate should not be in
vain. It is not too late to do something. We are a bit
discouraged when we look at how this situation arose and see the
government's attitude and how it said no. Cancelling this
contract cost a lot of money and now the government is coming
back with another contract which has no Canadian content and
where the helicopters will be manufactured outside Canada.
[English]
Mr. Paul Szabo (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Public Works and Government Services, Lib.): Madam Speaker, I
believe the member is not familiar with the ongoing process.
Opposition members in their speeches have been complaining that
the procurement strategy discriminates against potential bidders,
namely EH Industries.
Let me remind members that EH Industries did appeal or make a
complaint to the Canadian International Trade Tribunal. That
proceeding took place. It rejected the appeal on the EH-101.
1200
Having said that, I want to state categorically that we do not
discriminate against any bidders. In fact, members will know
that EH Industries won the contract for the search and rescue
helicopters following a fair, open and transparent competition.
It is more than welcome, and I suspect it will be bidding on this
one.
The purpose of the letter of interest is to inform the industry
at large of a potential project. It identifies to the industry
the objectives of the project. It is laid out in detail and on
the DND website, which has requested that Public Works and
Government Services Canada conduct the procurement process.
The member does not seem to be aware of this, but there is a
prequalification process. Once the letter of interest goes out
and the industry has a dialogue with public works based on the
procurement strategy, this process, which will be conducted ahead
of the final bid solicitations, will make key technical
requirements available to all bidders as early as possible and
aid in receiving technical compliance of candidate helicopters'
mission systems. This will serve to shorten the overall
competition and procurement time and mitigate risks to Canada and
the bidders that a formal bid might be found technically
non-compliant.
It is not a matter of simply putting out a different tender. It
is not a matter that there is political interference. The fact
is that it is a public, open and transparent process carrying on
a dialogue with the industry, preclearing to ensure that there
are technically compliant proposals and then requesting bids.
The member has it all wrong. I think the member should
understand that the process now is fair, open and transparent.
[Translation]
Mr. Claude Bachand: Madam Speaker, at the risk of annoying my
colleague a bit more, I repeat that what is transparent is the
fact that there was political interference, as clearly
demonstrated by the whole process. This shows that the
government wants to exclude companies, and I think that EH is
one of them. The company benefiting from the situation is
Eurocopter. I have here the letter of interest and this is what
it says:
[English]
For the purpose of the evaluation, the lowest priced compliant
proposal will include the price of the BV—
[Translation]
Therefore it is obvious that we are talking about the lowest
bid.
I would like to teach the hon. member some mathematics. The
Progressive Conservative Party wanted to purchase 50
helicopters, at a total cost of $5.8 billion, or $100 million
per unit. The Liberal government decided to cancel this contract
and, in 1995, to buy 15 helicopters at a total cost of $790
million, or $60 million per unit.
This is why we talk about the Cadillac version of 1993 and the
Chevrolet version of 1998.
Today, I am talking about the Lada version. This is the version
we will be getting, because the EH model cannot be built to the
contract specifications, that is 28 helicopters for $925
million, which would represent a cost of $50 million per
helicopter. They definitely will not be able to meet these
criteria. The government knows it is excluding EH by specifying
that it will go with the lowest bid.
This is why I am saying that one thing is transparent: after the
meeting between the Prime Minister and the President of France,
a fresh wind blew toward Europe. But, once again, the government
dropped Canadian content and taxpayers in Quebec and Canada will
have to bear the cost. There is no doubt about that.
I repeat, there obviously was some political interference, and
Canadian content was dropped.
Mr. Gérard Asselin (Charlevoix, BQ): Madam Speaker, first of
all, I think my colleague is being very hard on the Lada when he
compares it to the sort of helicopters the government has in
mind. But he also compares the EHs to a Cadillac, when I would
compare them to a Lincoln Continental, which is a much better
vehicle.
That having been said, before any decision is taken, I would
like the member for Saint-Jean to get across to all members of
the House the importance of that decision for job creation as
well.
1205
We know that if Bombardier is chosen, direct and indirect jobs
will be created in Quebec and in Canada. We are concerned about
the quality of products and services if we buy outside Canada.
If one buys a car which is no longer on the market and for which
one can no longer find parts or get after sales service, this
becomes a worry. Equipment that has cost the government
billions of dollars may have to be scrapped. There is also the
question of maintenance and safety.
The government made a promise during the election campaign, at
the time, blaming the Progressive Conservative government of Mr.
Mulroney. It said all sorts of things, spoke out against free
trade and the GST. Now it is even worse than the Progressive
Conservative government that preceded it.
Is the member for Saint-Jean taking into account job creation,
quality of services, productivity, maintenance, and the safety
of these helicopters? Will we have better service and better
flight safety?
Mr. Claude Bachand: Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my
colleague from Charlevoix for his excellent question.
I do not want go on with him over the Lincoln Continental versus
the Cadillac. However, it seems to me that there is a difference
between a Cadillac or a Lincoln Continental and a Lada.
I want to come back to his question, because I think it is
important. We think that if the contract were awarded to EH in
the Montreal region, it would mean an additional 200 or 300 jobs
for Quebec. This is nothing to sniff at, because they are often
high paid jobs. A level of skill is required for these jobs.
In the contracts for the army, there are always economic
benefits, because there are subcontractors. I have given you the
example of CRL Technologies, which would be prepared to do the
emergency lighting.
There is also the matter of the maintenance. It is very
important. Since the government bought 15 Cormorants in 1998,
why not buy another 28. It would have the same maintenance
equipment for them instead of a double system: one maintenance
system for the Cormorants and one for Eurocopter. Eurocopter
might say “We are going to send experts from Europe, but you
have to pay for that. We are prepared to do the maintenance for
a year or two, but after five years, we cannot. We are not going
to send Eurocopter or a Eurocopter company to North America to
look after the maintenance of your helicopters”.
It was a very intelligent question. Basically, the maintenance
will cost us more.
[English]
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, that is quite an analogy from the member for
Saint-Jean. I do not think I would want to fly either a Cadillac
or a Lada, but at the same time there should be a helicopter or a
machine out there to do the job. I know that is what the member
is seeking to do.
I have in my hands a book that is full of access to information
documents we have received on this particular item. I would like
to ask the member a question after I read one of the newspaper
articles I received as a result of the release of these access to
information documents. It states:
Documents obtained under the Access to Information Act by Ottawa
researcher Ken Rubin reveal an unprecedented, top-down approach
to defining the military's technical needs in areas such as
aircraft range and cabin size.
It is talking about the maritime helicopter. What does that say
to the member for Saint-Jean? Is the process open or is it not?
[Translation]
Mr. Claude Bachand: Mr. Speaker, I believe my remarks were quite
clear.
I think that the whole process put in place by the Canadian
government is not transparent. It is even biased. Because of all
the requirements, including the financial ones, some companies
will not be able to meet the deadlines or specifications or
comply with the financial framework.
1210
[English]
Mr. Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern
Shore, NDP): Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise
in the House, especially on behalf of the men and women who work
at the Shearwater military air force base.
I wish to thank the hon. member for Saint John who has been like
a bulldog on this file for many years, and I say that with the
greatest of respect. I thank her and her party for bringing this
very important issue for debate today in the House of Commons.
I will tell a little human interest story before I get into the
text of my speech. It is my daughter's unofficial 13th birthday
today. She was born on February 29 and, of course, there is no
February 29 this year. On behalf of parliament, I would like to
wish Jasmin a happy 13th birthday. My best wishes also go to
little Erika Nordby, the one year old girl in Edmonton who has
proven to all of us that the human spirit lives on in the child.
She has given us all hope for the future. I wish her and her
family the very best and a prosperous future. I thank her for
her indomitable spirit for what she has done.
Back to reality, to the issue of the contract that is before us
and the tendering process. It is obvious that the government is
up to something. In my earlier questioning of the minister of
public works, I asked him about and challenged him on the
tendering process. I stated that the way it was split and the
way it was done will exclude a particular company from having
fair and equitable access to the bid.
I did not mention the company's name. There are well over a
dozen companies that could apply for this particular contract.
Companies from around the world are bidding on this particular
tender. The fact is the minister stood up and said that
Cormorant can bid on this. He said Cormorant, not me. Of all
the companies he could have picked and chosen, the minister of
public works was the one who said Cormorant.
As members of parliament, it is not our place in the House of
Commons, regardless of our party or our political background,
whether we are federal, provincial or municipal, to stand up and
defend the interests of one company over another. That is not our
role. Our role is to ensure, especially in opposition on this
side of the House, that when the government gives out a tender it
is open and transparent.
We are talking here about Canadian tax dollars not the Liberal
slush fund. When money is doled out for a tendering process, the
contract or even the perception of the contract must be
completely clean. It must be open and transparent, and any
company anywhere can have the opportunity to bid on the contract.
Companies will compete among themselves. They are very good at
that. Companies like Cormorant, Puma and Sikorsky all have the
opportunity to bid among themselves, which is what they do best,
and then the winner will decide on the best available equipment
for the price.
Unfortunately the government has decided that is not the way to
go. It will exclude the particular company in question because
it would be politically unsuitable for them if indeed that
particular company was successful in bidding on the contract.
I am sure the member for Saint John would then ask the following
question because I know I, the Canadian Alliance and the Bloc
would ask it as well. If that particular company is successful
in bidding on the contract, then why the hell did the government
cancel it in 1993 in the first place? That is the crux of the
matter. That is what the entire debate is all about. It is
strictly politics. It is political interference at the worst
level, and it is quite obvious that it comes from the minister
down. He mentioned it himself. He picked out the company name,
not me. It is very clear that is what he has done.
On behalf of the men and women of Shearwater, they deserve and
demand to have a proper helicopter in which to perform their
duties. Right now Canada cannot meet its IATA agreements for
minimum search and rescue requirements. If we ever have another
unfortunate Swissair disaster, it is highly unlikely, with the
cuts to the coast guard and to the military, that we would be
able to meet the requirements.
1215
That is an IATA agreement that we signed. We have a duty and a
responsibility to protect our coastlines, especially in the north
and the Arctic. We cannot even meet the minimum requirements
because the Liberals over there are constantly delaying, treating
our military like a bank account that they just keep robbing,
taking away from and ignoring the lives of the men and women who
work for the military. It goes on and on, not just with
helicopters but with everything else. What the government has
done to our military men and women is a disgrace.
The reason I speak so passionately about it, as may be known
from previous speeches I have made in the House, is that I was
born in Holland. My parents and oldest brother were liberated by
the Canadian military in 1945. My father chose to come to Canada
because of a young soldier he met. He asked him why Canada had
risked and sacrificed so much. The soldier from Canada told my
father “Well, sir, we had a job to do”. It was as simple as
that.
Canada sacrificed many of its young men and women so that
Holland and many other countries could be free. My father taught
me that from day one. As an immigrant to Canada I feel honoured
and privileged to stand up in the House of Commons for those men
and women, especially the ones from Shearwater. It is my small
way of thanking them and Canada for what they have given me.
The least I can do is go after the government to ensure there
are proper resources and funding for our military men and women,
so that when we put them in harm's way they will have the best
equipment available. They should know that their families back
home are well taken care of and that they, in the event they
become injured, will not be treated like the Riordon family of
Nova Scotia. What we have done to our veterans is an absolute
disgrace.
I am stretching the argument a bit here. The reality is that
the government has changed the tender process. It was once
mandatory to have the replacement by 2005. Now the government
says it would prefer to have it by 2005.
I do not believe for a second that the helicopters will be here
by 2005. I do not believe it. In my consultations with various
manufacturers they have said that even if the bid were announced
today a company would have great difficulty securing the final
aspect by 2005. They simply cannot get it done.
I wish the government had some guts for once to tell the truth
around here. The reality is that 2005 will possibly not be the
target date. It should stand and tell the Canadian people the
truth. I do not see why that is so difficult.
I know I am stretching the parameters of discussion in that
regard, but it is the fact of the matter. It has misled the
House. It has misled our men and women. It has misled the
Canadian people. That is simply unacceptable.
It is difficult to comprehend why the government acts the way it
does. When we look at the history it is quite obvious why it
does. Now I understand why the Conservatives have brought the
motion forward. It was the Conservatives who were involved in
the contract for the EH-101. They put the bid out and everything
else. Those helicopters would have been flying today.
It was the Liberals that said if we vote for them they would get
rid of it. They played on the fears of Canadians that it would
drag us into further deficits. They completely ignored the needs
and wishes of the military. It was almost like they were playing
the military against the rest of society.
We see what that kind of attitude has done to our men and women
in the military. The minister of defence has stood in the House
time and time again to answer questions from my former colleague,
Mr. Gordon Earle who represented Halifax West, and said the troop
complement would never go below 60,000.
Now it is below 58,000 and it is going lower every day. The
minister of defence said that, again misleading the House and
Canadians. It is an absolute disgrace the way we treat our
military men and women.
Another condition of the contract that I think is very important
is the hours of maintenance. We would assume with this amount of
money, the billions of dollars being spent on the project, there
would be a commitment from whichever company is successful that
it would require a certain number of hours of maintenance for
hours of flying time.
The government is saying that we will save billions of dollars,
that we will save all this money, but it does not tell us the
current rate of maintenance on the Sea Kings we have today. It
is over 30 hours of maintenance for one hour of flight time.
1220
Those costs are not calculated into the so-called savings. It
is a disgrace that the government can mislead the House and jig
figures around to make them look good. We in the opposition
understand that. We are not so naive and gullible as to fall for
it.
The men and women of Shearwater air base and many other air
bases across the country know it as well. They know the Liberals
are not friends of the military or of the men and women who
serve. They are certainly no friends of the company that wanted
to bid on the contract. I will not mention the company by name
because the minister has already done that. It is not my place
to support one company over another, although I wish them all the
best of luck in getting the contract. I do not believe it will
be done by 2005. It is an absolute disgrace.
I have a couple of other things to say. The minister has stated
that the procurement will be off the shelf, which means there
will be no risk to the government. Could it assure us that the
aircraft it procures will have an identifiable certificate of
airworthiness at the time of purchase? Nothing in the contract
says that. There is no guarantee that it will be airworthy by
the time we get it.
What gives? What is going on in the shady halls or backrooms of
the government and of the minister of public works? Who is
pulling the strings around here when it comes to a very essential
contract that we desperately need? It is not just for military
purposes. As I stated before, it is also for search and rescue
purposes. Our men and women could have something safe and new in
which to fly, and something of which they could be proud.
I have said it time and again, as have many other members of the
opposition and even some Liberal members. Our men and women of
national defence are some of the greatest people in military
uniform around the world. They are very proud to do the job they
do. We as legislators sometimes make legislation that puts them
in harm's way. It is paramount that we give them the best
possible equipment with which to do their jobs. Unfortunately
that has not happened.
The government delays and delays. I do not believe for a second
that 2005 will be met. It is absolutely unfortunate that the
government proceeds in this regard. Through access to
information we learned that the government was advised of savings
of over $700 million by the purchase of a helicopter that is
common to search and rescue helicopter. The savings were
identified as common air crews, common crew training systems,
common spare and support systems, common manuals and common
certification systems, et cetera.
The government ignored its own advice and played fast and loose
with taxpayer money. It is unacceptable. In my view it is not
uncommon. It just spent $1.3 billion on a home energy rebate
that did not go to people who bought fuel. It went to prisoners
and some U.S. citizens. We even found out the other day that it
went to a member of parliament. I did not get mine. I know some
charities that could have used it.
That is the mentality of the Liberal side. We are not surprised
by that. Nobody is surprised by the actions of the government.
It is a common theme that goes on and on. The unfortunate part
is that we are not talking about energy. We are talking about
the lives of the men and women of the military.
The people who maintain the Sea Kings are magicians when it
comes to the mechanics. The Sea Kings have been stripped, torn
down, ripped apart and put back together time and time again. The
men and women who work on the Sea Kings deserve the applause of
the House for the work they have done to keep the machines safe
and up to standard.
Even the best mechanic cannot warn about unforeseen
circumstances. The Sea Kings are very old. Even the best
mechanic cannot do all the work that is required every time.
Things can be overlooked, parts can be stressed and situations
can happen.
It is incredible that the government did not think of that back
in 1993. It is incredible that it is still not thinking of it.
It announced the project. In fact when the announcement was made
a colonel at Shearwater said it was a red letter day for the air
force. He was right.
1225
After all the pushing and shoving by the opposition, the
government finally made an announcement. If the colonel had all
the information we have now, I do not think he would have said it
was a red letter day for the air force, especially now that we
understand how the tendering process has worked and that it will
not be ready by 2005.
I hope I am wrong. I hope the government proves me wrong. I
will stand in the House and apologize to the government if the
helicopters are here in 2005. I do not believe for a second that
they will be. I wish the government would come clean and say
that. It should tell the men and women of the military exactly
what is going on. It should be honest with them. They deserve to
be told the truth, but that is not happening right now.
It is incredible the government has gone on a secret little
mission in Nova Scotia. It had a panel looking at realigned
services for the Shearwater air base, the Greenwood air base in
the Annapolis valley and the Halifax airport. I suspect with the
recent announcement of cuts to the air force that Greenwood and
or Shearwater may shut down.
If that is the role and the goal of the government it should
tell us and let the men and women on those bases understand what
is going on. Again, if I am wrong, I will stand and apologize to
the House. I suspect that quite possibly one of those bases will
be severely reduced.
As the representative for Shearwater I will do everything I can
to protect Shearwater and keep it going. I am sure the member
for Kings—Hants would do the same for his area and that the
member for Vancouver Island would do the same to protect his.
That is what we do. We try to protect the men and women of our
constituencies against the ruthless cuts by the government.
This is an era of surplus, yet the government is continually
cutting the military. It is no wonder it cannot recruit anyone
for the military now and that men and women are going to the
private sector.
Canada's military has a history of greatness because of the
veterans who served in World War I, World War II, Korea and the
Boer war, and our current veterans from the gulf war, Bosnia and
so on. Those men and women did great work for Canada. They are
wonderful ambassadors for Canada, spreading democracy around the
world and defending the interests of those who cannot defend
themselves.
The Liberals treat them with such disregard and disrespect that
it is no wonder they are leaving in droves. The way they treat
our veterans and our current military personnel, as well as the
way they look at alternate service deliveries for the supply
chain, completely destroys the hopes and aspirations of people in
the civilian workforce such as the members of UNDE, the Union of
National Defence Employees, who work on the bases. They may not
be military men and women, but they are very proud and honoured
to do the jobs they do. They are serving their country. What do
the Liberals do? They look for alternate service delivery.
I have often wanted to say this and I will say it now. I would
not be surprised if one day they stood in the House and alternate
service delivered our entire military, contracted it out,
completely shut it down, laid off the 50,000 men and women in our
armed forces, and perhaps give the entire military to the U.S. or
someone else.
Mr. Scott Brison (Kings—Hants, PC): Hire mercenaries.
Mr. Peter Stoffer: Why not hire mercenaries? That is a
good point. Why do we even need a military the way the
government is going? It is absolutely amazing. I say that
tongue in cheek, but that is almost the approach the government
is taking. If that is the direction it goes in and contracts out
the entire military, I suggest we should contract out the
government and move on.
I could go on forever on this issue, but I am sure the House
cannot wait for the questions from the other side that will come
my way. In closing the men and women of our military deserve
better. They deserve a lot more from the government and from all
of us. I hope these kinds of debates will continue in the future
so that we can focus attention on what is required for the brave
men and women in our military.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Public Works and Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
during the member's speech he referred to the crux of the matter.
1230
He described it as basically being that the procurement of the
maritime helicopters was split into two; one a request for
proposals on a frame and the other for a mission system. The
member made the allegation that by splitting the contract for
helicopters into two parts it somehow discriminated or provided a
barrier against a particular company. In fact, he named E.H.
Industries Ltd.
E.H. Industries Ltd. actually made an appeal to the Canadian
International Trade Tribunal. I would like to inform the member
that the CITT rejected the complaint by E.H. Industries Ltd. I
am not sure if the member knows more about this than CITT. If he
does maybe he should explain to the House why he is more of an
expert than the CITT.
Second, I would like to point out that E.H. Industries Ltd. won
the competition in a fair, open and competitive process for the
search and rescue helicopters. That very clearly shows that
there is no bias against any particular company. In a fair, open
and transparent process, it is obvious that the government has no
position on any potential bidder. The reason why we put out a
procurement strategy, which included a letter of interest, was so
we could have a dialogue with the industry, advise what the specs
were and do pre-qualification to make sure that we could get the
best helicopters to meet the specifications of DND at the best
possible price on behalf of all Canadians.
The member suggested that having a procurement strategy which
goes for the frame first and then puts out bids for the mission
system was a barrier. Could he explain to the House why a
comprehensive pre-consultation and pre-qualification somehow
provides a barrier to anybody?
Mr. Peter Stoffer: Mr. Speaker, I guess in the Liberal
world, if everybody was a Liberal life would be great. The
reality is that it discriminated against that particular company.
Why did that company feel it had to go to court? No other
company is doing that. The fact is that this is a politically
motivated tender. Everybody knows that. The only problem is we
in opposition will say it while the Liberals will hide behind it.
I will throw a question back to the question. Why did the
government change the prerequisite of the current tender from a
mandatory replacement by 2005 to a preferred replacement by 2005?
It is because it knows that it cannot meet that commitment by
2005. It has misled the Canadian people and the brave men and
women of not only the Shearwater air base but of all the armed
forces. That is a disgrace.
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, my
colleague commented about the cost of the cancellation of the
EH-101 and how the government was saying it was going to save
money and so on.
I want my colleague and everyone in the House to know that the
cancellation of the EH-101 has cost about $800 million. When we
look at the cost of maintaining the Sea Kings and trying to keep
them upgraded and so on and then the replacement of the Labradors
and so on, the total cost for the Liberal government will be $8.2
billion. It would have cost them $4.3 billion to get 43 EH-101s.
Now we are only going to have 28 helicopters. In addition, we
have been told that the coastal patrol is going to be down to 15.
How does the hon. member see us looking after the coastal patrol
when it comes to drugs, illegal immigrants and over-fishing? How
does he see it working?
1235
Mr. Peter Stoffer: Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague from
Saint John, New Brunswick said it very eloquently. How do we do
it?
As I said earlier, we probably will just contract it out to
someone. Maybe there is another country that cares a lot more
about coastal defence and protection. Maybe we can use their
services because we certainly cannot seem to do it on our own.
The member was absolutely right when she said that the
cancellation was not just the $500 million or $800 million
initial cancellation fee. We have to take in all the other costs
which include the additional maintenance and everything that is
attached to that cancellation fee in terms of the delay of the
process.
It is not just the money that the taxpayers are very concerned
about, it is the embarrassment of our country worldwide. A
country that is deemed by the UN to be the number one place in
the world in which to live is embarrassed by the fact that we
have over 40 year old helicopters being flown by these brave men
and women.
That to me is the disgrace, the coup de grâce if I may say so,
of the government. It is the disgrace of having our brave men
and women fly in those clunkers when other countries around the
world have nice shiny equipment to fly. They are much safer and
do a much better job. That is an embarrassment that I do not
think the government will ever live down because I will not allow
it to live it down.
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, I would like to offer my support to the member who
just made his presentation. He is looking after the constituents
in his riding, those on the Shearwater base. He is very familiar
with the problems which have plagued the pilots and the crews in
trying to maintain and keep those machines in the air.
I know that he has involved himself significantly in trying to
help bring the message to the House and the public as to what is
going on. That is very important. I will commit myself and the
defence committee in the Alliance to do whatever we can to
support the member's endeavours at Shearwater.
According to the access to information documents, a new senior
management oversight committee was struck. It was called SMOC.
It involved high level members of the military, the deputy
minister of defence, the deputy minister of material and the
like.
When these documents were released, there were immediate
complaints. Some offices acknowledged in their memos, which were
obtained through access to information, that the top down
approach headed by the new SMOC would likely include cabinet
involvement at an earlier level. That is access to information,
proof in itself, that there was government interference in the
process. I would like the member to comment on that point.
Mr. Peter Stoffer: Mr. Speaker, I wish to repay the
compliment to the hon. member for Calgary Northeast for his
efforts and work, during the many years he has served the House,
in trying to get the resources required for our military men and
women. I appreciate his support in the ongoing battle for
Shearwater.
Is it not a shame that he has to recite from an access to
information document about the meddling and the intrusion by the
cabinet into this decision. It proves what we have been saying
all along.
He is absolutely right. This is not about doing what is best
for the military. This is about saving face. There is no
question in my mind that the cabinet and that particular minister
of public works personally interfered in the process so that a
particular company would be excluded from the bidding process.
1240
Mr. Scott Brison (Kings—Hants, PC): Mr. Speaker, as my
colleague from Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore said
this has been an exercise of the Liberal government in trying to
save face.
This was not the only campaign promise or commitment that the
Liberals made in 1993 in which it demonstrated very little
consistency. There were the commitments to get rid of the GST
and the free trade. The Liberals as members of the opposition
fought vociferously the policies on GST and free trade. Now as
members of the government they have embraced them.
This case was perhaps the one that the government was most
concerned about because of the symbolism of the helicopter
contract. The Prime Minister made a huge issue of this during
the 1993 election. At that time he said he would put zero on the
cheque for helicopters.
Ultimately that cancellation cost, as my colleague from Saint
John said earlier, around $4.2 billion for the Canadian taxpayer.
That was a face saving exercise for the government. Maybe the
government had a flash of embarrassment based on all the other
promises it broke after the 1993 election. Maybe it saw this as
the last bastion of consistency to their red book promises. I
cannot believe that the government would see fit to waste $4.2
billion of taxpayer money. That money could have gone to health
care, transfers to the provinces for education, perhaps lower
taxes or perhaps to strengthen our military. Would that not be a
great idea?
The government has demonstrated not just contempt for the House
periodically, but also contempt for the military over the last
seven years. This neglect of the Canadian military is to an
extent that we have never seen with regard to the quality of life
in the military, pay issues, housing issues and the one we are
focused on today, equipment issues.
As the member for Kings—Hants representing CFB Greenwood, this
is a very important issue to me. Approximately two years ago I
attended a funeral in Greenwood for three servicemen. These
brave individuals perished on a mission of the Sea King
helicopter. It was a moving and memorable experience. Hundreds
of people gathered to celebrate their lives and to mourn the
tragedy of their lives being ended so unnecessarily early. The
amount of emotion at that time is indescribable.
We cannot put a price tag on that. We cannot put a price tag on
the fear that our service men and women have every day when they
use these helicopters and risk their lives. We cannot put a
price tag on the fear that their families live under on an
ongoing basis that their loved ones are in risk because of these
decisions. I focused on the $4.2 billion loss to the Canadian
taxpayer, but we have to recognize that the other losses have
been priceless. We cannot put a price tag on those things.
I should say as well that I will be splitting my
time with the hon. member for Cumberland—Colchester.
1245
Before I came here I assumed that public policy was built around
needs, around what people in our constituencies and across our
country actually need, and around what our military needs. I
have learned since 1997 that politics can in fact be the natural
enemy of public policy. In fact, for very short term political
reasons sometimes, decisions are taken that have a very
deleterious impact on Canadians in the long term. I do not think
there is a better example of a case where public policy was
sacrificed on the alter of political expediency than the case of
the cancellation of the EH-101 contract and the decisions made
after that, and I will list some of those.
Of course my colleague from Saint John spoke earlier of the $800
million in cancellation fees. There are also: the Sea King
maintenance and upgrade, $600 million; Canada search helicopter
program, $790 million; long term service for that program, $1.7
billion; maritime helicopter project, again $2.9 billion; and the
maritime helicopter project and long term service support, again,
$1.7 billion. The total cost is around $8.5 billion as opposed
to the actual cost for the EH-101s, which would have been $4.3
billion. Even with Liberal math, this does not make any sense.
The Liberals could argue that by delaying the decisions as they
did, they had the extra time to reduce the value of the Canadian
dollar, which they have worked assiduously at over a period of
seven years, and they have reduced the Canadian dollar
significantly. Perhaps their strategy has been to delay these
types of investments as long as possible, because every year of
Liberal government leads to a lower Canadian dollar. Maybe that
is the stalling mechanism the Liberals are trying, but it is
still not working. Even with their valiant efforts to reduce the
value of the Canadian dollar and devalue our way to prosperity,
they have not achieved sufficient reduction of these costs.
The fact is that in making a very political decision about a
life and death issue, the Liberals have treated our Canadian
military and the loved ones of our Canadian military darned
shabbily. There are issues that rise above partisanship. I do
not think there is a member of the House from any political party
who does not value and appreciate the contribution of our
military.
We can speak at great length in the House about our commitment
as representatives for our military, but the cabinet opposite has
not delivered in protecting the interests of all Canadians by
ensuring that we have a strong military and by respecting the
members of that military, whether it is on quality of life issues
or in terms of adequate housing and adequate pay and benefits.
Also, beyond that there are the equipment issues.
This is a government that has repeatedly turned its back on the
military. This is the most egregious example of that because it
smacks of partisan politics and Machiavellian manoeuvring at the
expense of our brave men and women in uniform.
However, I will tell members today that as long as I am the
member for Kings—Hants I will be defending the interests of our
military and working to ensure that the people of Kings—Hants
and all Canadians benefit from a strong, proud military,
particularly the base in Greenwood in my riding, whose service
people have provided and continue to provide such terrific
service to Canada.
1250
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian (Brampton Centre, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, earlier I was following the hon. member's speech in
which the used the phrase that this is contempt for parliament.
I wonder if he would describe what he did in the previous
parliament, which was contempt for parliament and for the people
of Canada when he resigned his seat for the leader of the
opposition, now leader of the fifth party in the House. He took
the population of his riding for granted when he thought the
people would vote for the Conservative Party. He resigned his
seat and got a job in the leader's office. Then when the
election was called last October the member ran again and won the
election. I wonder if this would be considered contempt for
parliament and contempt for the people of Canada.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair): Of course our hon.
colleague from Brampton was a little bit off the subject, but if
the member for Kings—Hants wishes to respond, he may.
Mr. Scott Brison: Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the
hon. member for his non-partisan and constructive intervention on
this topic.
It is interesting. Here we have an opposition day motion
whereby we are debating the future of the Canadian military and
the government's neglect of the Canadian military, and even the
government's own backbenchers do not have the gumption to stand
up and talk about the issue at hand. Instead they talk about
something else.
The member described my action of resigning my seat in order for
my right hon. leader to have an opportunity to run in my riding
as contemptuous. I suggest he address his concerns about that
issue to his leader, the Prime Minister, who entered the House
under similar circumstances when a member resigned his seat. I
expect his leader would be surprised to learn of that member's
philosophical aversion to that mechanism by which many leaders
have entered the House.
Perhaps if the member were to address his concerns to his Prime
Minister about those contemptuous actions taken by that Prime
Minister when he first entered the House in the early nineties,
he would probably ensure himself a longer period on the
backbenches of that government. Perhaps he should address his
concerns about demonstrating contempt for parliament to those
people over there.
In fact, the people of Kings—Hants spoke quite clearly on
November 27 by giving me another opportunity to continue to
represent them.
Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
I find the speeches today very interesting, particularly the
speech made by the member for Kings—Hants, in which he spoke a
lot about the financial side of things and how much the costs ran
over. In actual fact we have heard it here that we have actually
saved money, because the whole project has changed. It is not
the same as the 1993 project. The members on the other side do
not seem to realize that. The mission systems are not the same.
The needs are not the same.
The most interesting part is how the PC Party has changed its
policy. The 1993 system was one helicopter, one piece, but since
then there have been two different contracts. That was something
proposed by the PC Party. I do not see why the PC members are
now going to one piece, one contract. Perhaps the member could
tell me why they have changed their minds.
Mr. Scott Brison: Mr. Speaker, in regard to the hon.
member from Damascus on his road to conversion, first I am
absolutely astounded by the member opposite who, in his good work
in opposition on this side of the House, actually enabled us to
attain much of this information. Now that he is on the other
side of the House, muzzled effectively and perhaps wearing those
rose coloured glasses given out to all successful Liberal
candidates, he sees things quite differently.
It is clear that if we were to compare that hon. member's
positions about military issues when he was on this side of the
House to his current views, we could see that his consistency on
these issues is about as constant as that of the Prime Minister
on the GST, free trade, deregulation of financial services or
anything.
1255
Perhaps as part of his membership in that caucus he has passed
the first test: there is no consistency and there is no
commitment to the values and principles that sustain all of us as
entities in the political environment.
Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC): Mr. Speaker,
it is certainly a pleasure to follow my distinguished colleague
from Kings—Hants, who is very knowledgeable on this question. I
also want to acknowledge the hon. member for Saint John, who has
brought the issue forward and has been consistent in her concern
about the helicopter issue and about all other military issues.
This debate is of interest to me because I was a member from
1988 to 1993 and I was part of the government that approved the
purchase of the EH-101 helicopters, which would have been in
service now for some time, at least some of them. We would have
replaced some of the Sea King helicopters which continue to
literally fall out of the sky and present a hazard to our
military people.
However, as we know, the Liberal government cancelled the
contract that was given by the Canadian government in a way that
caused them a ton of grief and cost the taxpayers of Canada a lot
of money, with upward of $1 billion in costs for cancellation
fees, legal fees, settlements and work in the departments. That
is a thousand million dollars that went for absolutely nothing.
It was a fee to cancel the contract: a thousand million dollars.
I think of the effort we go through in Nova Scotia to try to
raise money for hospitals, social services, highways and roads
and all the things we need money for that the government will no
longer do. The government says it will no longer have highway
improvement agreements and it will cut back on transfers to
health care. I think of the thousand million dollars that was
just thrown away for nothing to prove a political point. It is
very sad that the money was totally wasted and that we have
continued to debate the helicopter issue for so long.
As a result of that thousand million dollar mistake, the
government has had to distort the tendering process and the calls
for proposals on helicopters in order to exclude the helicopter
the Conservative government ordered in the early nineties, which
the Liberals cancelled. In order to save face, the government
cannot possibly allow the same helicopter to be reordered after
the Liberals cost taxpayers a thousand million dollars in
cancellation fees.
The whole issue goes back to 1978, when the Liberals themselves
identified the need for new helicopters. That is 23 years ago.
They did nothing about it at that time. In 1992 when the
Conservatives came in, they did approve the replacement of the
helicopters with one type of helicopter, an EH-101, for all the
necessary purposes. The Labrador search and rescue and the Sea
King maritime helicopter fleets were to be replaced with the
EH-101. That would have given us efficiencies in replacement
parts, training knowledge, training of pilots and mechanics,
parts inventory and everything else.
Since the government cancelled that contract, it has been
divided into two contracts. The government has divided the last
batch of contracts into airframe and mission packages. Having
been in the car business for some time, I just know what is going
to happen when something fails with the helicopter in the future.
The provider of the mission package is going to say that the
problem is not with the electronic equipment but the airframe and
how it has been constructed and how it interrelates to the
mission package. If something happens with the helicopter, the
helicopter providers are going to blame it on the mission package
supplier. In other words, it is going to cost the government a
lot more money.
In a parallel issue, I recently heard on the news a good example
of what the private sector is doing. Ford Motor Company builds
cars for police services. There is inconsistency in the
application of sirens and telecommunications and communications
equipment in the police cars now. They are so high tech, with so
many electronic features and all the bells and whistles police
cars have, that they have not interrelated well. There are a lot
of difficulties. Warranty on issues has had to be refused
because the car company says the difficulties were due to the
supplier of the equipment and the equipment company says the
problem was due to the supplier of the vehicle.
The company has established a new policy. It wants to supply one
unit. The police car will already be equipped so that the
electronics are integrated and work in sync with the automobile's
electronics, the engine, the transmission and all the other
features. It has had so much trouble that it is again passing
the buck. It is the supplier of the mission package or the
supplier of the police car. That is exactly what will happen
with the new helicopters. The supplier of the mission package
will say that it is not its problem, that it is someone else's
problem and the supplier of the helicopter will say that it is a
mission package problem.
1300
I know this will fail. I have seen it myself with my own two
eyes. The private sector has acknowledged that the system does
not work and here we are going into this process. We will have
two different parties supplying these things and the people of
Canada will end up paying for it. They paid the price for the
cancellation of the last deal and they will pay the price for
this poor policy of supply and procurement for these helicopters.
The EH-101 is and always has been the military's first choice.
It is the helicopter that it prefers and it has identified it as
the best suited for its purposes. However the politicians have
interceded and said that it cannot be done and that it is not
politically acceptable. They said that we have to have a
different helicopter so they changed the rules in order to
prevent the EH-101 from being the successful candidate. Who
pays? The taxpayers will pay once again.
A mistake was made in the first place when the Liberals promised
to get rid of the EH-101. They should just accept that they made
a mistake and accept the responsibility for the billion dollars
of grief that they have piled on top of Canadian taxpayers. The
military should be allowed to buy the right helicopter at the
best price to do the job.
We are talking about life and death situations. We are not
talking about trivial matters. The Liberals should acknowledge
that it is their mistake and not put it on the backs of our
military and search and rescue people just because of this
decision.
The guidelines for the competition have excluded the EH-101 for
all intents and purposes. It will force the military to take a
helicopter it does not want. It is well known in circles that
some of these helicopters are not even close to the criteria that
the military really need. Instead of having helicopters that are
appropriate for its use, it will end up with helicopters that it
does not want. This is entirely for political purposes.
There are all kinds of rumours around. The illustrious member
from Damascus raised issues in the House when he sat with us on
this side about innuendo, suspicion of under the table deals,
promises between the governments of Canada and France, promises
between cities and all kinds of other political deals made
surrounding this whole helicopter issue. It has been surrounded
by rumours and innuendo, but now that the member is sitting on
the Liberal side all those rumours and innuendo seem to have
disappeared.
As part of the government that was involved with the original
decision to buy the EH-101 helicopters, it is a shame to see that
decision reversed. It is a shame to see the taxpayers saddled
with a $1 billion tax burden, which was the price to get out of
the contract, and now having to pay more for helicopters that are
not suitable. Those helicopters will be serviced in an improper,
non-functional way contrary to what the private sector is doing
with new technology, and again the taxpayer will pay.
I would like to see the government just reverse its decision and
accept the best helicopter as has been recommended by the very
distinguished member for Saint John.
Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the member for Kings—Hants did not really answer the question,
but I am used to that. When we asked questions we did not get
answers from the other side. That happens but I will try again.
1305
The PC Party's 1993 specifications show that the contract had
separate units: a platform and mission system. I made that
recommendation last year at SCONDVA. I would like to know when
that was changed in PC Party policy.
Mr. Bill Casey: Mr. Speaker, I have a question I would
like to ask the hon. member for Compton—Stanstead.
Last year in the House he said “Our information says it seems
that the Cougar II may come with a promise of a Daimler-Chrysler
plant, probably in Shawinigan”. I am not sure where Shawinigan
is or whose riding that is, but this is the Liberal member asking
if there is a promise to put a helicopter plant in Shawinigan. He
went on to say “A more interesting angle is that this deal may
also come with a promise of neutrality from the French government
in the next Quebec referendum”.
Does the hon. member still think that the member from Shawinigan
has the fix in for a helicopter plant in Shawinigan in order to
approve this contract?
Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
it is a pleasure to be in the House to speak about helicopters, a
subject that is not new to me. Today I would like to focus on
the remarks toward the central role that the Department of Public
Works and Government Services is playing in managing the maritime
helicopter project.
I will be splitting my time with the member for
Haliburton—Victoria—Brock.
Like my colleagues who have spoken before me, I have the utmost
confidence in the department's ability to administer this major
crown procurement. The Department of Public Works and Government
Services is not only the federal government's main purchasing
organization, it is the largest procurement outfit in Canada.
This common service agency buys everything from paper clips to
train services to scientific research and, yes, sophisticated
military and defence equipment.
The department services more than 100 federal departments,
agencies, crown corporations and special operating agencies,
including parliament. It deals with thousands of suppliers, both
here in Canada and internationally. On a day to day basis
contract officers of Public Works and Governments Services Canada
deal with a range of suppliers, from individual contractors to
some of the biggest industrial, financial, consulting and
manufacturing concerns in the world.
The department averages 50,000 contracts a year, with a total
value of $8 billion, or about 57% of the federal government's
total annual spending on goods and services.
As the House can see, Public Works and Government Services
Canada brings a wealth of experience and expertise to the
maritime helicopter project. With a value of close to $2.9
billion, there is no question that this project is larger than
most. It is the single largest procurement currently being
managed by the Department of Public Works and Government
Services.
The same principles apply. I can assure hon. members on all
sides of the House that this procurement will be managed
efficiently, effectively and with the greatest respect for
taxpayer dollars. The reason I can say this is because Public
Works and Government Services Canada has 60 years of purchasing
history behind it. It has earned a solid reputation as a highly
competent and professional procurement agency. It operates to
the highest standards which are clearly defined in federal
statutes, regulations and policy manuals.
As hon. members are aware, the overall procurement and
contracting policies of the Government of Canada are established
by the treasury board. These policies are aimed at acquiring
goods and services in a manner that enhances access, competition
and fairness, and that results in value to the Canadian
government.
The procurement strategy for the maritime helicopter project
meets all of these criteria. It also complies with the
Department of Public Works and Government Services' own framework
of guiding principles for procurement.
The department has one governing postulate for all its
activities, and that is integrity. Public Works and Government
Services Canada is committed to ensuring that its supply
activities are open, fair and transparent.
1310
The integrity of the procurement strategy for the maritime
helicopter project is above question. As the Minister of Public
Works and Government Services has demonstrated through his
earlier comments, the 28 maritime helicopters and associated
integrated mission systems required by the Canadian forces will
be purchased through a process that is fair, open and
transparent.
The Department of Public Works and Government Services has
identified several guiding principles that underlie this overall
commitment to integrity. I would like to briefly review them for
hon. members to further underscore the strength of this
procurement strategy.
For each procurement it undertakes, the department is committed
to satisfying the operational needs of its clients while
obtaining the best price through the procurement process. That
explains why procurement officers had to work hand in hand with
officials of the Department of National Defence to develop the
letter of interest and other documents released last August. It
explains why the procurement includes an unprecedented commitment
to industry dialogue and interaction.
As far as obtaining value, the procurement strategy ensures that
once the client's operational and technical needs are met, the
lowest price bidder for each requirement will be awarded the
contract provided that acceptable terms and conditions and
industrial and regional benefits are proposed.
The Public Works and Government Services Canada's procurement
practices are also aimed at advancing the government's national
objectives, particularly in the area of social economic policy.
The maritime helicopter project meets this principle on two
accounts. First, by ensuring that the men and women of the
Canadian forces have the equipment they need to perform their
vital work in the service of all Canadians. Second, by ensuring
that a comprehensive package of industrial and regional benefits
will be a key criterion in the evaluation of all bids.
It is generally acknowledged that no Canadian company is able to
provide the entry level helicopter. However there is a
possibility that Canadian firms will participate as
subcontractors. We know that Canadians firms are capable of
supplying the integrated mission systems and have expressed
interest in doing so.
As the minister has indicated, the government's goal is to
ensure that Canadian suppliers receive the maximum benefits from
both contracts. Consistent with principles used for the previous
procurements, the government will be seeking industrial and
regional benefits equivalent to the value of the contracts both
for the helicopter and the integrated mission system.
Competition is another guiding principle for procurements by
Public Works and Government Services Canada. There can be no
doubt as to its application to the maritime helicopter project.
Two separate competitive processes will be undertaken to ensure
that the crown obtains both the required helicopter and the
integrated mission system, as well as the long term in service
support it needs at the lowest possible price.
Moreover, the mandatory prequalification process ensures a
maximum level of competition for the contracts because it will
mitigate the risk of receiving non-compliant bids. Hon. members
can rest assured that there will be strong competition for these
contracts.
Equal treatment is another principle adhered to by the
Department of Public Works and Government Services' procurement
officers. The department's policy is that all potential
suppliers of a particular requirement must be subject to the same
conditions.
Several elements of the procurement strategy, including its
general openness, will contribute to the achievement of this
principle. All potential bidders will have access to the same
information and will be kept apprised of any changes and
technical specifications and other requirements.
The industry interaction process initiated by the government,
which will include the posting of technical specifications and
other documents on the project's dedicated website, will provide
for a two way dialogue that ensures there will be no surprises at
the end of the road. All potential bidders will be given the
same opportunity to demonstrate technical compliance through the
prequalification process.
Finally, accountability is the cornerstone of the department's
procurement activities. As is the case with all other
procurements, the Public Works and Government Services Canada
will be accountable for the integrity of the entire procurement
process from start to finish.
Based on its long history of working with the Department of
National Defence on many projects, including highly sensitive
procurements, the Department of Public Works and Government
Services anticipates no problem in this regard. The two
departments have a close and positive working relationship that
will be manifested through this maritime helicopter project.
1315
The government will continue to be open, fair and transparent as
this project moves forward over the next few months. All
potential prime contractors are fully aware of the different
elements of the government's procurement strategy, and all bids
will be measured fairly against a strict and open set of
evaluation criteria.
Some hon. members have questioned why the government is using
the lowest cost compliant as the basis for awarding these two
contracts when bids for the search and rescue helicopter were
assessed based on overall value to the crown. The answer is
simple: The mandatory prequalification process of the maritime
helicopter project will ensure that all the helicopters and
integrated mission systems ultimately considered by the
government are capable of doing the job. Once this has been
established, the evaluation of individual proposals can focus on
cost so that the crown's needs are met at the lowest possible
price.
The maritime helicopter project is an important step forward in
providing the Canadian forces with state of the art equipment
that meets the needs of the 21st century. I know this is of
concern to Canadians from coast to coast. Having heard the range
of views on the subject, I trust hon. members will recognize the
strength of the government's approach and will give their
unequivocal support to this endeavour.
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, I have
to ask the hon. member for Compton—Stanstead, does he deny that
it was his questions in the House when he sat on this side of the
House that uncovered this clear bias that we are debating today?
At that time, when he sat with me on this side of the House, he
informed me that there was a problem. He said that the Prime
Minister was going over to France to talk with the French
government, along with the Daimler-Chrysler plant people, about
having this Eurocopter agreement and that it was a deal that was
being entered into. He knew about it because it was leaked to
him by some DND people.
Does he deny today that he was the one who was asking for a
fair, open, public tender process in accordance with the approved
statement of operational requirements? What is happening today?
It does not comply with that operational requirement.
I ask the hon. member, for whom I have great respect, how could
he sit on this side of the House and ask those questions, and
then today turn around and say that everything is fine and is
rosy? he was totally opposed to it when he sat here.
Mr. David Price: Mr. Speaker, that is an interesting
question. Things have not changed just because I am on this side
of the House. The questions still get asked. I guess the
difference is that the questions get answered now.
I find it interesting that the member opposite keeps talking
about this as not being a fair and open process. I think it is
an extremely fair and open process, much fairer than what we have
seen in the past. If we want to go back to processes, as I said
before, I have the process from 1993.
If we look back to 1993, we are talking about the same type of
situation: a separate platform and a separate mission systems.
The only difference was that there was only one company that
happened to bid on those two combined issues and it got the job.
[Translation]
Mr. Gérard Asselin (Charlevoix, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the speech of
the member for Compton—Stanstead has neither interest, substance
or odour.
In 1997, when he was a candidate for the Progressive
Conservative Party, his speeches defended the policies of Mr.
Mulroney's Conservative government and condemned the actions and
promises of the Liberal Party and of the current Prime Minister.
How can the member, who has been here since 1997 and was
elected, at the time, by condemning the Liberal Party's
policies, now be on the other side of the House and defend a
position outlined in a speech that was probably drafted by the
Liberal Minister of Public Works and Government Services?
Mr. David Price: Mr. Speaker, it is very easy. As I said before,
now, when I ask questions, I get answers.
1320
The Progressive Conservative Party is now saying that it has
changed its policy. I proposed in committee that the bidding be
based on two things: the airframe and the mission systems. Now,
the Conservatives are saying that they do not agree with that. I
did agree with that, and that is precisely what the government
is doing. Therefore, I have no problem with it.
[English]
Mr. John O'Reilly (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
National Defence, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to
speak to the motion before us today, the maritime helicopter
project.
I commend the member for Compton—Stanstead. The party saw
enough support for this member to nominate and elect him as
vice-chair of defence and veterans affairs. I remind the member
for Saint John that at one time when she was sitting over there
with Jean Charest, who was a Conservative, he also left to excel
in the Liberal Party. It seems that if one leaves those benches
over there, one tends to move up in the world.
I want to deal first with the facts that are before us. We have
heard a lot a numbers coming out of the opposition party. I
think they found them somewhere in a comic book. This deal will
save $1.5 billion over the former government's helicopter
purchase.
The contract that involved the EH-101 was $5.7 billion. The
contract for the helicopter purchased is at about $2.9 billion,
plus the helicopter purchased for search and rescue brings it up
to $3.7 billion. This is a difference of $2 billion, even adding
in the $500 million in cancellation costs, not with the numbers
they are throwing around. In cancelling the EH-101, the
government is still saving Canadian taxpayers $1.5 billion
dollars.
I know my colleague across the way, the member for Saint John,
is concerned about the men and women of the Canadian forces and
about making sure they have the tools and the support they need
to do their job. This is a priority for the government also. It
is why I am pleased to have this opportunity to speak about the
helicopter project.
The decision to proceed with this acquisition demonstrates the
government's leadership in ensuring that the Canadian forces are
properly equipped for their missions. As members know, over the
past two years, the government has reinvested more than $2.5
billion in defence. Additional new funding was announced this
morning when the supplementary estimates were tabled. As stated
in the recent Speech from the Throne, these increases will help
ensure the forces are equipped and prepared to respond quickly to
calls for help at home and abroad.
In the defence white paper, the government made it clear that
modernizing the Canadian forces required several key equipment
purchases, including the maritime helicopter. The government is
delivering on these commitments.
Our navy has taken possession of the first of four Victoria
class submarines. The army has acquired new state of the art
light armoured vehicles. The United States has followed suit and
is buying some of these vehicles, as is New Zealand. These
vehicles are made in London, Ontario. The air force will be
receiving 15 new search and rescue helicopters and upgrading the
CF-18 fighters and Aurora surveillance aircraft.
In August of last year, the government granted approval for the
Department of National Defence to begin the process of acquiring
28 new maritime helicopters. As the Minister of National Defence
has said, acquiring a suitable maritime helicopter to replace the
aging Sea King is his top capital acquisition priority. A
modern, robust and capable maritime helicopter is vital for
maintaining multipurpose combat capable forces. I might also, as
a side note, say that the United States is still flying Sea Kings
and swear by them.
While the Sea King has performed admirably as our maritime
helicopter, we must ensure that the Canadian forces are equipped
to meet the demands of the future. The maritime helicopter is a
vital component needed by the Canadian forces to carry out the
range of tasks that the government may ask of them.
The maritime helicopter plays a wide range of roles, including
surveillance and control of Canadian territory and approaches,
search and rescue, peace support operations, defence of North
America, NATO, collective defence, international humanitarian
assistance and disaster relief, among others.
1325
The statement of operational requirements for the maritime
helicopter clearly describes what kind of helicopter we need to
carry out our maritime activities. For example, it explains why
we need 28 maritime helicopters to meet our current defence
commitments. It explains how much the maritime helicopter must
be able to carry in order to accomplish an assigned mission and
the airborne time required to conduct the mission.
It also explains what kind of mission systems, for example,
communication, sensors and radar, will be required to ensure the
helicopter's versatility and interoperability with our allies.
The statement of operational requirements is strong and coherent.
It is consistent with current defence policy and supported by
thorough operational and statistical analysis.
A lot of work has been done to identify what kind of maritime
helicopter the Canadian forces need to carry out their defence
missions. I am sure the member for Saint John will be pleased to
hear that the process to acquire a new maritime helicopter for
the Canadian forces is being done with the best value for
Canadian taxpayers in mind.
As all members know, if someone has to borrow money to buy
something, whether it is a house or a car, one makes sure that
every penny spent is used wisely. One would not buy more than
what is needed. One would not want to pay a nickel more than one
had to. The government understands that the money it has is
borrowed from the taxpayer and that the taxpayer is entrusting
the government to spend it wisely. That is what the government
is doing with the maritime helicopter project.
The government will acquire what the Canadian forces need at the
lowest cost to the Canadian taxpayer over the long term. We will
get what is the best possible price, compliant with our
requirements, over the full life of the helicopter. In other
words, we are being smart about it and our approach is very
simple.
We will acquire off the shelf, non-developmental equipment. We
will not spend more than we have to spend. We will buy only what
we need. We will make sure the combined cost of acquiring and
maintaining the helicopter is the lowest possible. This will
save taxpayer money over the long term. If this is not getting
the best value, I do not know what is.
The government will have saved Canadian taxpayers $1.5 billion
compared to the former government's EH-101 project. This is
after including the costs associated with cancellation and the
investments the Department of National Defence had made to ensure
the continued airworthiness of the Labrador and Sea King
helicopters.
It is not only about saving money. It is also about ensuring
the Canadian forces get the equipment they need at a price we can
afford. By launching the process to acquire new helicopters the
government has done just that. The government is committed to
ensuring that the men and women of the Canadian forces have the
tools they need to get their job done. Acquiring a new maritime
helicopter is part of this commitment. We are doing this in a
way that is right for the Canadian forces and right for Canadian
taxpayers.
When I was in Kosovo visiting with a quality of life report
follow-up, I flew in a Griffon helicopter and found that it was a
state of the art piece of equipment. We flew in very heavy
traffic and in an area that was consistently dangerous. The
operational people on this mission were highly trained and
technically aware of what was going on. They were the most
professional people I have dealt with.
I take this opportunity to commend the men and women of the
Canadian forces for the work that they do on our behalf and on
behalf of all of Canada.
Mr. Loyola Hearn (St. John's West, PC): Mr. Speaker, the
member talked about figures being used on this side of the House
as if they came out of comic books. He also talked about the
great deal and the amount of savings to the government in the
present tender call. I remind the member that a six pack is
cheaper than a dozen any day of the week. Let us compare apples
and apples when we talk about costs.
When the minister spoke this morning he talked about the
different references that would be included in the tender call.
He did not mention the word commonality.
1330
A study conducted for the Department of National Defence by one
of the minister's associate departments showed that by choosing
the helicopter that could do both services, over $257 million in
1990 dollars could be saved.
Could the member table those figures to show that there is no
other avenue the government could have explored? Would he tell
us if the government considered the commonality factor when
assessing the tender call to make sure Canadians got the best
bang for their buck? We are not talking about saving money here,
we are talking about saving lives. It is not the dollar value
that counts, it is the service and equipment we get for the
dollars we spend.
Mr. John O'Reilly: Mr. Speaker, I am more than happy to
include the numbers I gave in my speech. I know the Conservative
Party does not think about dollars. If it thought about dollars
it would still be the ruling party. It wanted to spend millions
of extra dollars on cadillacs so their members could run around
in armour plated vehicles. That is why the party was reduced to
two people in the House of Commons.
One of those two saw the light and is now the leader of the
Liberal Party in Quebec. The member for Compton—Stanstead saw
the light and came over, and is now the vice-chair for defence
and veteran's affairs. It is a step up when one becomes part of
a government.
We are very concerned. Our first concern as a government is to
make sure the men and women of the Canadian forces are properly
supplied, properly trained, have the right equipment, operate in
the safest environment and still save the taxpayers money. That
is what this government is all about. That is what we are doing.
The Conservative Party will be down to two again if it keeps
talking about spending taxpayer money lightly and loosely, as it
has in the past.
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, I would
be happy to table the figures from Liberal programs that show
they spent $8.2 billion when they replaced the Labradors, and now
the helicopters. Guess what? There will be 33 helicopters. That
is the total. We would have had 43 helicopters at a cost of $5.8
billion.
That is $8.2 billion versus $5.8 billion. The taxpayers have
been taken. I will table the documents and I have no problem in
doing so.
Mr. John O'Reilly: Mr. Speaker, I am certainly glad the
member for Saint John is tabling Liberal documents. Obviously
the Conservative Party does not have any of its own. I would be
more than happy to see them tabled and to deal with them. I am
sure that if she had checked with some of the people she had
dealt with in the past who are now Liberals, they could probably
get her some more really good numbers that make perfect sense for
any government to follow.
Mr. Leon Benoit (Lakeland, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I am pleased to speak to this supply day motion, and I
commend the member of the Conservative Party for bringing the
motion forward.
This is an extremely important issue and I am quite stunned
listening to the parliamentary secretary to the minister. He
makes it sound like everything is just great in the military. He
indicated that the equipment is top notch, that things are going
in the right direction and that everything is fine. I will talk
a little about that toward the end of my presentation because the
defence minister said the same thing at the defence suppliers'
conference.
I will talk about how the attitude that everything is okay
really does not bode well for the replacement of the helicopters
or for the military generally. That kind of attitude in the
minds of and coming from the lips of the minister and the
parliamentary secretary certainly causes me great concern.
The motion is about having a fair and open process for replacing
the Sea Kings.
I do not think anyone would argue that the Sea Kings are in need
of replacement. However, this motion may turn out to be entirely
irrelevant.
1335
I heard a rumour this morning that the government already has a
plan in place to deal with the Sea King problem. The plan is to
put ejection seats in the helicopters. God knows, we cannot
afford to lose as many pilots as we are losing helicopters as
these helicopters drop from the sky.
The government plan, and this is just a rumour, is to put
ejection seats in the helicopters and apparently the contractor
can put in an inflatable life raft. The pilot will need to blow
it up when he is in the water, but there will be a life raft
attached to the seat and everything will be fine. No one have
not quite figured out how to deal with the roof of the helicopter
coming off and some other little details, but the government does
have a plan in place for dealing with the Sea King problem. I say
this tongue in cheek. It is obviously meant to be humorous but
it is not really funny.
My nephew flew a Sea King out of Halifax for about five years.
He did not seem too concerned about it when he was single and
before he had a child. He knew the Sea Kings had problems on a
regular basis and that they were ditched quite often. He knew
they flew in some of the most difficult conditions on the face of
the earth.
My nephew is a young fellow. He already had a commercial
licence when he went into the military. He wanted to fly an F-18
but unfortunately the government cut back that program just as he
enlisted, so he went with the Sea Kings. He was committed to the
military. He wanted to do his job and do it well, and he did.
For the length of his contract he flew the Sea Kings.
His attitude, I sensed, changed when his first child was born.
As parents we often think about life a little differently when we
have the extra responsibility of a child. I sensed at the time
he had the child that he was not happy at all to be flying those
old Sea King helicopters. He knew the risk to him was greater
than necessary. He was willing to take a risk. I never sensed
that he was ever ready to back off on a risk, but he knew the
risk was greater than could be reasonably expected.
For that reason, when it came time to renew the contract he did
not want to fly the Sea Kings any more. He wanted to get back
into the F-18 program. They had been losing pilots. He was
trained on a twin engine machine the same as the F-18s. There
were a lot of similarities, which might sound a little
surprising. He told the government he wanted an assurance that
he would go back into the F-18 program if he was to renew his
contract. He could not get that assurance. A trained pilot with
years of experience was lost because the government has no
serious commitment to the military.
I will talk about the minister's attitude and what he said
recently at the conference. However, with that kind of attitude
in place, I do not see an awful lot of hope for the future of the
Canadian military as long as this minister and this government
are in charge. I am very concerned about that.
The Sea King replacement program is not new. The Sea Kings are
from 1964. They are almost 40 years old. My nephew, when he
started flying them, was under 25 years of age. He was so much
older than the Sea Kings that it is not even fair to compare
their ages. It would make him sound like an old man.
Replacing the Sea King was first talked about and seriously
considered in the 1970s. Here we are in 2001 and there is still
no real commitment to replacing them. I do not think the
commitment is there.
1340
Both the Sea King and the Labrador search and rescue
helicopters, which are flown by the air force today, were slated
for replacement with the EH-101.
Members of the Conservative Party and the governing party have
been back and forth on the issue for some time, each saying their
program is less expensive than the other. In reality, the
program which was put forth by the Conservative government, when
we compare apples to apples and equipment to equipment and do a
fair comparison, was a much better deal than the deal the
Liberals are considering now.
The $500 million cancellation cost is lost. The cost of
replacing the helicopters is greater when we compare apples to
apples and oranges to oranges. When buying military equipment a
bare bones helicopter is probably less than half the cost. The
equipment put into it is the greatest cost. That is what we must
look at when we compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.
The points have been made by members of the Conservative Party
and countered, completely inaccurately, by members of the
governing party. The issue has been dealt with. What I will
talk a little more about is the government's general lack of
commitment to the military.
What we heard last week at the conference of defence
associations was startling. The defence minister and the chief
of defence staff both proclaimed that the Canadian forces, with
fewer than 60,000 soldiers, was in better shape than at the end
of the cold war when it had 80,000 men and women in uniform.
The minister responsible for the Canadian military stood at the
conference and said that things were in great shape, the military
was better than it was 10 years ago and that we were doing a
great job. Someone without a clue about the military might think
that was great because it is better than it was 10 years ago.
Unfortunately for the minister, the very next speaker was, who?
The very next speaker was Major-General MacKenzie, a well
respected man in the Canadian military and a respected analyst of
the Canadian military. He stood right after the minister and
said that the army could not fight and that the uniformed
leadership should have a right to say so. He made it clear that
we have terrific men and women serving in the military. The
problem is the lack of commitment on the part of the government
to replace equipment, such as the Sea Kings. The problem is the
lack of proper training and the lack of money for the military.
The little bit of money added to the spending today will not
solve the problem.
Right after the minister stood up and said that everything was
okay, we had Major-General Mackenzie saying that things were an
absolute mess. When he asked for a show of hands from anyone at
the conference of defence associations who honestly believed the
military was in as good shape as it was 10 years ago, not one
hand went up.
Anyone who knows anything about the military knows that if a
defence minister stands at a conference like that and says that
things are great and that they are better than they were 10 years
ago, the minister either does not know what is going on or he
does not care. It is one or the other.
When we have a minister who thinks like that and says things
like that, what hope is there for getting an acceptable
replacement for the Sea King? What hope is there for getting
acceptable equipment in any area? What hope is there of getting
proper uniforms for our men and women?
When I was deputy defence critic three years ago we were
debating soldiers' uniforms and basic things like personal kits,
and the debate had already been going on for a couple of years.
Today we send men and women on overseas missions without proper,
basic equipment like uniforms.
What kind of commitment is that to our military? It is
disgusting.
1345
I know that my time is up and that my colleague for Edmonton
Centre-East will be sharing the time.
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, based on the comments being given opposite it is very
clear that they have absolutely no interest in assisting the
military. It seems to me too that they are writing off Atlantic
Canada because after all it is Atlantic Canada that stands to
benefit as a result of the kind of movement we are making.
Members opposite have talked about political interference. They
are the last people who should be lecturing anyone about
political interference, especially in light of some of the
comments made by their critic, the member for Calgary Northeast,
who said that we should use the notwithstanding clause to get rid
of recruiting targets that were mandated by the human rights
tribunal and which were designated to diversify the ethnic and
gender representation in the military. Talk about political
interference.
He went on to say that the prescribed levels of women and
visible minorities in the Canadian armed forces had compromised
combat capability. Shame on him. Finally he asked if we would
force aboriginal people to serve in the navy? It is insane and
dangerous. Does that not sum up exactly what those people stand
for?
Last Tuesday there was a press release given by the member for
St. Albert in which he said the government was on a spending
spree. One of the departments in which we spent money was
defence. Would the member talk to the member for St. Albert and
tell him to get his facts straight? More to the point, would the
member make sure that he supports the kind of spending that we
are doing, and rightfully so, in the military?
Mr. Leon Benoit: Mr. Speaker, it is an absolutely
legitimate concern that the government is on a spending spree.
The problem is that its priorities are all wrong.
The bit of extra money it will put into the military this year
does not even bring it back to the level of spending when we came
here in 1993. In spite of the fact that the salaries have gone
up, all those costs have gone up and it is still not back to
level of 1993. There is no commitment to the military. The
commitment is to putting more money into the human resources
department so that the minister could use it to gain political
benefit. That is the problem.
That is where the extra spending has gone, to that kind of
thing. That is the kind of program that is improper. It
demonstrates that the government does not have a clue about
setting priorities. The military, which protect the country and
its citizens, should be a top priority of the federal government.
Yet the commitment is not there. The minister stood last week at
a conference and said that things were better than they were 10
years ago. Anybody who has a clue about reality knows that is
absolutely ridiculous.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Public Works and Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, in
his speech the member said that the current costs of the proposal
would be more than it was before.
I advise the House that the EH-101 was $5.7 billion less the
cost of the search and rescue helicopters, which brings it down
to a $2 billion difference. After we take off the $500 million
penalty and the additional cost of operating the existing fleet,
it still leaves a savings of $1.5 billion.
The member is absolutely wrong. It will not cost more. It will
be $1.5 billion less to Canadian taxpayers.
Mr. Leon Benoit: Mr. Speaker, that kind of comment
demonstrates that Liberal backbenchers are willing to be like
puppets. They get the information from the minister and are
willing to go ahead and spew those figures.
They know that they are not comparing apples to apples. They
know that what is priced out there is not the same as was priced
out when the Conservatives made the deal before the 1993
election. They know that it is being dishonest to present these
numbers in the way they are being presented.
1350
Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton Centre-East, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak today to the
motion sponsored by the hon. member for Saint John and to thank
my colleague for Lakeland for sharing his time with me.
Through the motion the member for Saint John wishes that the
House to call upon the government to act to ensure that maritime
procurement be conducted on the basis of best value to Canadian
taxpayers. The hon. member is particularly concerned with
procurement policies affecting the acquisition of maritime
helicopters, but I am sure many in the House would agree that
there are procurement problems throughout the military. I will
expand the debate a little to talk about other procurement
difficulties that the government is having.
As an ex-member of the Royal Canadian Air Force of the sixties,
I can make some comparisons today when I look at the equipment in
the military and the numbers of members of the military. I
reflect back to that period of time and the pride that we had in
the equipment of the day. Even though through the years it was
modernized somewhat, there was an inherent pride which seems to
be missing through many parts of the military today because of
procurement problems and being delayed for so long on necessary
equipment purchases.
An example is one of the recent cutbacks which needs to be
questioned, the cutback of the patrol times of the Aurora
aircraft. Patrol times have been cut down from 19,200 hours in
1993 when the Liberals came into office to 11,500 hours today.
Their wish is to cut those times further to an unacceptable 8,000
hours per year, despite a written recommendation by the chief of
the air force who stated emphatically that less than 11,500 hours
would result in an unacceptable impact.
With the increasing use of the northwest passage, coupled with
increasing numbers of polar overflights, one might argue for more
patrol hours rather than less in order to assert our presence and
our sovereignty in the far north. We must remember the
circumstances of the United States ship, the Manhattan, and
how its presence challenged our Arctic sovereignty not too many
years ago.
We have generals who describe our current military by using such
words as irrelevant. That is shameful. Two million Canadians
served in Canada's military in the last century and did so with
great pride. Successive governments have decimated our military
readiness in many areas, including Arctic patrols and equipment
maintenance.
Recently military trucks were not available to tow the cannons
to Parliament Hill for ceremonies. They had to be towed here by
motor league tow trucks. It is just one example of how we are
treating their maintenance. I would say that is a foreseeable
maintenance issue that should be projected. What hope do we have
if we need these services overseas? Is there a local chapter in
Bosnia of the motor league?
It was detected recently that our CF-18s have moisture problems
in the honeycombing of the wings, another procurement problem.
Are we projecting ahead? What are we doing on procurement of
necessary planes to replace the CF-18? What are we doing today
and when is the projection? Will we be sitting here and talking
about that 30 years from now? The CF-18s are from the 1970s.
There was also a recent situation with the Leopard tanks where
it was reported that over the years the bottoms of the tanks had
worn so thin that a screwdriver could be pushed through them.
The solution was to weld plates over the bottom of the tanks
rather than look at a replacement for a hull that is over 30
years old.
1355
Even more recently there was another procurement strategy where
questions arose. It was reported that military barracks in
Alberta were being abandoned barely four years after they were
constructed. The reason was that hundreds of cracks appeared in
the foundation, another procurement difficulty.
Nothing spoke louder of Canada's lack of mobilization capability
than the recent incidents on the high seas when 10% of our
military equipment was held hostage until we had to forcibly
board and take it back. Should we consider procurement
capabilities and heavy lift capabilities for the armed forces? I
think so. Our lack of heavy lift capability let a private
shipping company seriously embarrass us in the eyes of the world.
The compounding of this disgrace was illustrated when only one
of the two helicopters that set out to intercept the ship made it
to the ship. The second one had to turn back because of
mechanical failures.
The military has not seriously listened to the concerns of
current and former armed forces personnel about its physical
welfare. Current and former armed forces personnel were recently
told that their complaints about mysterious physical ailments
were likely their own fault, apparently because they are
overstressed with worry. In short, they are sick with worrying
about their health.
Curiously senior military personnel in European countries and
NATO have not adopted the shortsightedness of their Canadian
counterparts. Among non-Canadian military personnel depleted
uranium with increasing frequency is being singled out as a
potential contaminant of the greatest concern.
Yesterday we celebrated the 10th anniversary of the end of the
gulf war, but on a rather sour note because we still will not
acknowledge the soldiers who served in that war as being war
veterans.
We must as a nation demonstrate a renewed commitment to the
future well-being of our armed forces. I have seen time and
again that whenever Canadians are reminded of how today's
freedoms are due to the current and past sacrifices of many in
our military they respond generously and with gratitude. Concerns
for the well-being of our military personnel should be shared by
all and entrenched in military operations manuals and directives.
It is those in our military who are entrusted to carry the torch
in the name of our war dead to protect the peace and freedoms
that we as Canadians enjoy today.
In closing, I commend the member for Saint John for her
initiative and support her motion wholeheartedly.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Public Works and Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
procurement strategy that has been laid out by the government
includes a prequalification process which will make key technical
requirements available to bidders as early as possible and aid
them in receiving technical compliance of Canadian helicopters
and mission systems.
Does the member believe that the process of issuing letters of
interest, of having a dialogue with the aerospace industry and of
having a prequalification process is in the best interest of
Canada, our military and our taxpayers?
Mr. Peter Goldring: Mr. Speaker, coming from a background
in the construction industry where there are a number of
initiatives where people prequalify, I believe the
prequalification has to be open enough. At times
prequalification in the construction industry is sometimes too
narrowly focused. It would have to be on the understanding that
it would be open to the maximum number of people qualifying to
bid on it. When examining the proposals that come in certainly
we would reach a point in time when the door has to be closed to
get on with sincere bidding processes.
STATEMENTS BY MEMBERS
1400
[English]
INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY
Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, March
8 is International Women's Day, a day to celebrate women's
talents and accomplishments and a day to take stock of the work
that needs to be done in Canada and around the world to ensure
that women can flourish in all aspects of their lives.
Domestically the theme “Canadian Women: Raising our Diverse
Voices for Positive Change” encourages all women to promote
respect and tolerance so that all women and men pursue their
dreams without discrimination.
On Wednesday I will be hosting Burlington's fifth annual
International Women's Day breakfast and welcoming Reverend
Allison Barrett, minister of the First Unitarian Church of
Hamilton. She will inspire and encourage our guests, including
high school students, to continue their efforts to explore the
careers that impassion them, traditional or non-traditional.
I thank Reverend Barrett for her generous support in conveying
this important message, in mentoring others and in providing
living proof that women are taking action in a myriad of fields
and that women can and do make a difference.
I also thank my family and my community for allowing me to take
my place in the Chamber, an institution that used to bar women.
* * *
SUPREME COURT OF CANADA
Mr. Vic Toews (Provencher, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, over the past two decades supreme court justices have
engaged in a frenzy of constitutional experimentation that
resulted in the judiciary substituting its legal and societal
preferences for those made by the elected representatives of the
people.
A leader in this judicial activism was former Chief Justice of
Canada Antonio Lamer. Although he is now retired, the decisions
that he wrote or participated in will continue to impact
adversely on the principles and institutions of our democracy.
In a recent interview, another supreme court justice, Mr.
Justice Bastarache, warned the nation of the dangers of judicial
government favoured by the former chief justice.
The House and the people of Canada should commend Mr. Justice
Bastarache and other jurists who recognize the dangers of the
legal and constitutional anarchy reflected in the judgments of
the former chief justice. Our democratic principles and
institutions are too important to be hijacked by non-elected
political judiciary.
* * *
[Translation]
AMOS
Mr. Guy St-Julien (Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the drinking water of the Canadian municipality of Amos,
in Abitibi, is the best in North America and even in the world,
according to the jury at the Berkeley Springs International Water
Tasting Awards, in Berkeley Springs, West Virginia.
Amos was awarded the gold medal in the municipal water category
at the 9th edition of this international competition, the most
important one in the world.
The special quality of the groundwater in the region of Amos is
due to the presence of an esker.
I invite governments to support the community of Amos in its
efforts to become an interpretation centre on esker waters.
* * *
[English]
NATIONAL ENGINEERING WEEK
Mr. Andy Savoy (Tobique—Mactaquac, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
as a registered professional engineer it is indeed an honour and
a privilege to inform the House of the upcoming National
Engineering Week.
Since its inception in 1992, National Engineering Week has
celebrated Canada's engineering excellence. This year's honorary
chair, Canadian astronaut Julie Payette, will be launching
National Engineering Week on March 2 in Ottawa by presenting the
grand prize to the winner of the great Canadian engineering space
quest.
National Engineering Week is an opportunity to celebrate
Canada's engineering heritage and to promote awareness of the
role engineering plays in our daily lives. It is being
celebrated this year between March 3 and March 11 with activities
being held across Canada, all dedicated to reaching out to young
Canadians to let them know that engineering is an exciting, fun
and rewarding career choice.
Hats off to the 157,000 engineers who every day help us build a
better and safer nation.
* * *
NORTHUMBERLAND
Mr. Paul Harold Macklin (Northumberland, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, it is a fact that rural communities face many challenges
in obtaining and utilizing technology. In this light, on January
9 of this year I launched my first major initiative as the member
of parliament for Northumberland, that being the creation of a
research, innovation and technology advisory committee.
This committee is developing a vision of Northumberland, where
communities can work together to ensure that our children can
find a prosperous future without having to leave their community.
I wish to commend the talented members of the research,
innovation and technology advisory committee for their hard work
and dedication. I look forward to working with that committee to
achieve that vision of a brighter and innovative future for many
generations to come.
* * *
1405
RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT
Ms. Cheryl Gallant (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, in April 1999 a proposal was
presented to the government to build a Canadian neutron facility
for advanced materials research at Chalk River laboratories.
This facility is critical for Canadian industries and
universities in developing the advanced materials needed to
compete in the global economy. If Canada is to maintain its
economic independence, we need to stay ahead of the competition
by developing new materials and new industries.
All innovations depend on the discovery and development of new
materials, whether they be for medical, mining, aerospace,
optical or energy industries.
Working at Chalk River, Canadian Bert Brockhouse developed the
method now used around the world to view the movement of atoms.
For this outstanding achievement he shared the 1994 Nobel prize
for physics.
To continue to have Canadian success stories such as this one,
we as a nation must invest in primary scientific research. I am
calling on the government to act now and provide the funding
necessary to build the Canadian neutron facility at Chalk River.
* * *
[Translation]
WOMEN'S DEMANDS
Ms. Diane Bourgeois (Terrebonne—Blainville, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
in 1918, before the members of the Canadian Senate who were going
to rule on the right of women to vote, Laurent-Olivier David said
“Let us leave these poor young women of 21 to their piano,
embroidery or needlepoint, and particularly to the tasks that
will prepare them to become good and resourceful homemakers”.
At the time, women's demands were made in the context of
industrialization and urbanization. Today, they are made in the
context of globalization.
Because they make a contribution, women are entitled to their
share of the economic, political and social spinoffs. Women must
take part in the discussions on the free trade area of the
Americas, and they must be heard by the leaders of the 34 states.
This is an issue of fairness.
* * *
[English]
GUN CONTROL
Mr. John Harvard (Charleswood St. James—Assiniboia,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, opposition members continue to confuse
fact with fiction when it comes to the firearms program. Allow
me to clear up any confusion they may have.
The government does not intend to privatize the Canadian
firearms program. The government is exploring outsourcing
options to ensure that the system is as efficient and cost
effective as it can be while continuing to improve public safety.
We owe this to Canadian taxpayers.
The government is not compromising the privacy of people in the
system. In fact, any new technologies will serve only to enhance
the stringent privacy measures already in place.
The government has been clear about the cost and clear about the
benefits. More than 2,600 licence applications have been refused
or revoked for public safety reasons and 65,000 potentially
dangerous gun sales have been delayed for further investigation.
This system is helping to keep guns out of the hands of those
who should not have them. The facts are clear. It is
unfortunate that critics of the program refuse to look at them
and acknowledge that the system is working.
* * *
[Translation]
MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES
Mrs. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, recently in this House, members of the Bloc and the
Alliance have attacked the Minister of Public Works and
Government Services without justification on an immigration
matter.
They have accused the minister of using his status as an MP for
unjustified purposes and of maintaining links with the Mafia.
I find it unacceptable that some are doing everything possible to
tarnish the reputation of a man known for responsible and honest
work, a devoted MP concerned for the welfare of the community.
These accusations are also tarnishing the reputation of the
Italian community.
I am, however, pleased that some members of the opposition have
withdrawn their remarks, admitting that their attacks had gone
too far, but I deplore the fact that they have yet to officially
apologize to the minister, and I encourage them to do so without
further delay.
* * *
[English]
GILDAS MOLGAT
Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, it is with profound sadness that I rise today to pay
tribute to a man from my riding of Dauphin—Swan River, the Hon.
Senator Gil Molgat. As recently as last year we attended
community events together.
Senator Molgat was from Ste. Rose du Lac, Manitoba. Senator
Molgat had a long and distinguished career in politics, serving
as a member of the Manitoba legislature from 1953 to 1970. He
was appointed to the Senate by Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau in
1970.
Senator Molgat was elected Deputy Speaker of the Senate in 1983,
appointed Deputy Leader of the Opposition in October 1991, and
appointed Deputy Leader of the Government in the Senate in
November 1993. He became Speaker of the Senate in 1994.
1410
Upon my arrival on Parliament Hill in 1997, Senator Molgat was
friendly and welcoming to me and made me feel that I belonged
here.
On behalf of the Canadian Alliance and the people of
Dauphin—Swan River, I wish to extend sincerest condolences to
Mrs. Molgat and her family. He will be missed by all Manitobans.
* * *
[Translation]
ACTS OF BRAVERY
Mr. Dominic LeBlanc (Beauséjour—Petitcodiac, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
on January 9, three persons in my riding displayed exemplary
courage.
A group of 11 snowmobilers from the Netherlands and Moncton were
on an excursion in Kent County, on the Bouctouche River.
At one point, the ice gave way underneath the weight of the
snowmobiles. While some managed to free themselves, four of
them were imprisoned in the icy waters.
It was at this point that Ronald Allain, David Small and Louis
Godbout helped them, thus preventing an unfortunate outcome.
[English]
A few weeks ago the municipality of Bouctouche recognized their
courage. It is with pride and admiration that I would like
members of the House to join me in congratulating them
and thanking them for their heroism.
* * *
TRANSPORTATION
Mrs. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
transport minister has finally acknowledged that our roads and
highways need fixing. The NDP has been saying that for years and
I am glad to see he has finally gotten the message.
It is too bad that the Liberal government's solution to the
problem is all wrong. The Liberal government's idea is to give
big cities more power to tax. That way, cities can raise their
own money for roads and public transit.
Canadians do not need to pay more municipal taxes. The Liberal
government already collects enough taxes, including gas taxes. It
just needs to stop hoarding the money in Ottawa so the finance
minister can brag about the big surplus.
The other problem with the Liberal government's plan is that it
completely ignores rural Canada. Of course urban transit is
important, but rural areas need help as well. Once again the
Liberal government is showing its anti-rural, anti-northern bias.
Fixing Canada's roads and improving transit is not that hard.
Letting big cities raise taxes is not the answer. The Liberal
government should spend tax dollars wisely and work
co-operatively with all levels of government, provinces,
municipalities and first nations, to fix the roads that need
fixing in cities and rural areas throughout Canada.
* * *
[Translation]
INTERNATIONAL YEAR OF VOLUNTEERS
Mrs. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Neigette-et-la-Mitis, BQ):
Mr. Speaker, the United Nations has declared 2001 International
Year of Volunteers. We are being encouraged to share or continue
to share our individual resources in order to meet the many needs
of the society in which we live.
Getting involved as a volunteer means helping to build a more
humane society. Many non-profit organizations would not be able
to survive without the help of volunteers.
If the health of a democratic society can be judged by the
quality of its volunteer commitment, Quebec is doing well,
because one million Quebecers are already active as volunteers.
But with the wide range of needs in our communities, there is
always room for more volunteers.
I want to join with all those who are benefiting from the
generosity of their fellow citizens and express my gratitude to
the volunteers of Quebec and of Canada.
* * *
CANADIAN MEN'S UNIVERSITY VOLLEYBALL CHAMPIONSHIP
Mr. Jean-Guy Carignan (Québec East, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
tomorrow marks the beginning of the Canadian men's university
volleyball championship at the PEPS complex at Université Laval.
This event will be a wonderful opportunity for young athletes
from across the county to compete with the best in their
category.
[English]
The event will also be an excellent opportunity for the players
of Laval University's volleyball team, the Rouge et Or, to
measure up to eight of the best teams in the country, including
the defending national champions and number one ranking team, the
Manitoba Bisons.
[Translation]
Since I represent the greater Quebec City area, I would be
remiss if I did not mention the exceptional performances of
Laval's team, the Rouge et Or.
Three times national champions during the past decade, this team
has maintained a perfect record during the regular season—12
wins and no losses.
The Rouge et Or also won the provincial championship, beating
out the Montreal Carabins on February 25.
[English]
On behalf of all members of the House, I wish to extend best of
luck to all teams participating in this championship and to say
especially “Go, Rouge et Or, go”.
* * *
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Mr. Speaker, after
much pressure from the opposition, the minister of agriculture
will finally announce a support package for producers.
1415
There are three problems that the minister must address. First,
there is still an unlevel playing field for Canadian farmers
today. Canada spends 0.78% of its GDP on agricultural support
while the U.S. spends 1.07% of its GDP on agricultural support.
Second, input costs are going up at an alarming rate. The cost
of putting fuel in tractors, combines and other farm equipment
went from 37 cents a litre to over 50 cents a litre for the crop
year starting in 2000. Nitrogen in some cases has gone from 16
cents a pound to 40 cents a pound this spring.
Third, the value of the commodity has gone down drastically. In
1996 a producer received $5.50 a bushel for wheat. Today that
same bushel of wheat is returning $2.45. The same year canola
returned $10 a bushel and today it is $5.18 a bushel. We need two
more things—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Laval Centre.
* * *
[Translation]
WOMEN'S RIGHTS
Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
last October, the World March of Women captured the attention of
the entire world. Canadians and Quebecers marched to back up
their demands at the provincial, federal and international
levels. They called for equity, not violence.
These marchers understood that the power is theirs and that it
is their duty to exercise it. Yet sexist attitudes still
prevail: pay inequity, lack of recognition for the
sociopolitical contribution of women, refusal to recognize the
equality of the sexes.
Canada, which boasts that it is the best country in the world
but does not respect women, mothers, and female workers, is a
poor model indeed. Once again, those who preach democracy around
the world are knowingly passing the buck.
But these women who marched and carried a message will not give
up until their rights are fully recognized. And they have the
full support of the Bloc Quebecois.
ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
[English]
ETHICS COUNSELLOR
Mr. Stockwell Day (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, for almost two years now the Prime
Minister has been stumbling over questions from the opposition
related to the Shawinigan file, but yesterday he fell flat on his
face.
He declared unequivocally in the House that when he was elected
he had revealed to the ethics counsellor that he was owed money
on the shares in the golf course. Yesterday the ethics
counsellor contradicted that. I have the Prime Minister's public
declaration of declarable assets. There is no mention of the
over $200,000 debt for the sale of the golf course.
My question is very simple. Why did the Prime Minister not
declare the debt owed to him from the golf course to the ethics
counsellor when he should have?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I gave all my assets to the lawyer who is my trustee and
she had all the discussions with everyone. She informed the
ethics counsellor or the staff of the ethics counsellor. It was
a time when they were doing a lot of work because all the
ministers were doing the same thing.
They were informed. It was not an obligation to reveal this
type of asset but she revealed it anyway. That is exactly what
the ethics counsellor said. He said it was not an obligation and
she did it right at the beginning.
Mr. Stockwell Day (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister's own words on
June 8, 1999, showed that it was an obligation to reveal it. That
is in his own words. He should have done that.
He lent someone as much as $200,000 to $300,000 in the purchase
of the shares in the golf course. He neglected to tell the
ethics counsellor about it. The reason that he did not tell him
about it was because he did not want the ethics counsellor to
know about it.
Why did he hide an asset worth over a quarter of a million
dollars from the ethics counsellor? It is not on the file. It
is not there.
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I gave all my assets to my trustee. I checked again
with her yesterday and this asset was declared to the officers at
that time.
She repeated that. She said that she discussed my file with the
ethics counsellor and the staff of the ethics counsellor. She
revealed it for me after I transmitted my assets a few days after
I became Prime Minister. It was a problem for her and not a
problem for me.
Mr. Stockwell Day (Leader of the Opposition, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I am sorry but he did not declare it
in 1993. As a matter of fact three years went by. He thought
the little secret would not come out, but when it did not go
through in 1996, only then was he forced to confess to the ethics
counsellor that he had this loan of over $200,000. Then he was
given three years to sell it or to declare it. He did neither of
those for another three years until the opposition forced him to
do that.
We see that first he hid it from the ethics counsellor; then he
hid it from the House; and now he has tried to hide it from the
Canadian people. Why—
The Speaker: The Right Hon. Prime Minister.
1420
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the ethics counsellor spoke today. He wrote a letter to
the press today. Again he repeated what is clear. We have
explained time and time again that there was no conflict of
interest, that there was no link at all between the golf course
and the auberge, that I did nothing wrong and that I followed all
the rules. The RCMP did the same thing.
I have always followed the guidelines. I have not misled
anybody. I repeat, my assets were transferred and they were
informed in the first days of the administration in 1993.
Ms. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister's shares in the
golf course were owned by his holding company, J & AC
Consultants, and had been put in a blind trust.
The conflict of interest code states that public officeholders
can only be involved in their blind trust after the ethics
counsellor has been consulted.
In this case it was the Prime Minister who informed the ethics
counsellor that there was a problem with his shares. When did
the Prime Minister learn about the problems of his shares and who
told him?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the ethics counsellor reviewed that four times. He
knows all the facts.
I became the Prime Minister. I had sold my shares before I was
sworn in. I had sold my interest in the hotel six months before.
The day after I became Prime Minister my assets were transferred
to my trustee, like anybody else. She had to deal with the
ethics counsellor. He returned a certificate to me saying that
he was satisfied with what I did. He repeated that to the public
time and time again.
Ms. Val Meredith (South Surrey—White Rock—Langley,
Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister was
elected as Prime Minister in 1993. It was only after the Prime
Minister contacted the ethics counsellor on January 27, 1996,
that he began to lobby for loans and grants for the neighbouring
Auberge Grand-Mère.
The Prime Minister ensured that the hotel got loans from the
BDC, the Business Development Bank of Canada, immigrant
investors, and grants from human resources.
Was the Prime Minister not acting more like a businessperson
concerned about his assets than he was like a normal, ordinary
member of parliament?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, a responsible member of parliament. There was a riding
with 19% unemployment and the Prime Minister, as the member for
Saint-Maurice, had the duty to make sure that any project
creating jobs would receive the grants that were available to any
other business in any other riding.
I have done my job as a member of parliament. I have done it
for 38 years and I will keep fighting for the interests of the
people of my riding.
* * *
[Translation]
FREE TRADE AREA OF THE AMERICAS
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, today,
the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs reacted to the
comments made by Louise Beaudoin, the Quebec minister of
international relations, by saying that Quebec had the
constitutional right to not implement certain provisions of a
future treaty on a free trade area of the Americas.
Since the federal government knows that Quebec will not feel
bound by commitments made by Canada without prior approval from
the province, would it not be more advisable to proceed with a
true consultation, instead of being arrogant?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
the provinces are being consulted in certain areas. I am even
told that it is a former deputy minister of education in Quebec
who is in charge of the negotiations. Everyone is involved, but
when it comes to international relations, it is the federal
government that represents all Canadians.
Of course, the provincial government is free to walk out and
reject free trade in provincial jurisdictions.
But that would be surprising, since the Bloc Quebecois has been
saying for years that free trade is the solution to every
problem.
1425
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, this
takes some nerve. The Prime Minister campaigned against free
trade and now he is extolling the virtues of free trade.
His minister is describing us, and
describing the Government of Quebec as irresponsible.
But who is irresponsible? The government that protects its
jurisdictions and wants to be directly involved in negotiations
that will affect it, or the one that negotiates without a
mandate in jurisdictions that are not its own, without any
transparency, without a democratic process and in secrecy? Which
one is irresponsible?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
first, the hon. member alluded to the election campaign on free
trade. I was not a candidate at the 1988 election. I did not
take part in that election.
Now, with any treaty, the process is exactly the same as the one
that was followed when we negotiated the free trade agreement
with Mexico and the United States.
Whenever we enter into had agreements with the governments
of other countries, we have
always followed the same process is always the same.
Once a treaty has been approved, if a province does not
want to bring it into force implement it, it does
not do so, and everyone—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Joliette.
Mr. Pierre Paquette (Joliette, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the fact that
we used one system for the free trade agreement with the United
States or Mexico does not mean that the system was a good one.
Discussions prior to negotiations on the free trade area of the
Americas have got underway very badly, because the Government of
Quebec, among others, is strongly critical of the fact that the
consultations are nothing more than briefings, too short to be
effective.
How can the government claim to be speaking on behalf of us all?
How can it intimate that the agreement to be negotiated will be
implemented by the provinces, since a number of its clauses will
inevitably refer to exclusive jurisdictions of the provinces in
which the federal government has absolutely no business?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, in this federation, which has been very decentralized—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
The Speaker: Order, please. The hon. minister.
Hon. Stéphane Dion: Mr. Speaker, since 1930, under
constitutional jurisprudence, a province may choose not to
implement an international treaty in its area of jurisdiction.
Where Ms. Beaudoin is acting irresponsibly is by saying that, if
she is not sufficiently consulted, she will not implement the
agreement.
First, she was consulted fully. Second, an agreement is
implemented if it is good for Quebecers. If it is good for
Quebecers, she will implement it, of course.
Mr. Pierre Paquette (Joliette, BQ): Mr. Speaker, all the
premiers, including Quebec's, have demanded a formal agreement
from the government on the role of the provinces in the
negotiations.
Even the current Minister of Industry, while he was the Premier
of Newfoundland, shared this opinion.
Is it not true that all the provinces are demanding they be
truly involved and not just be given short briefing sessions as
is currently the case?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the provinces are being fully consulted—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Hon. Stéphane Dion: —to the point that the Government of Quebec
was unable to identify one area of fundamental disagreement
between it and the Minister for International Trade, who
represents our government.
* * *
[English]
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Dick Proctor (Palliser, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Prime Minister, following the disappointing
and even pathetic response on the farm crisis that was just
announced an hour ago.
Canadian farmers are saying to the government that in 1993 when
the government had a deficit problem they were there for the
government and accepted huge cuts. Now, when they have a
problem, there is no meaningful help forthcoming from the
government.
Why does the government continue to ignore the reality that
there is a huge farm crisis and fail to do anything about it?
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member knows that the government
said it would be there for farmers and that it was not done yet.
I just announced a few minutes ago another half a billion
dollars. That is the 60% federal portion. When the provinces
put their 40% with it, that will be $830 million.
1430
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
Mr. Dick Proctor (Palliser, NDP): Mr. Speaker, that
outburst may help to make up for the lack of applause that the
minister received from the Canadian Federation of Agriculture.
Today's one time announcement of $500 million was exactly what
the province of Saskatchewan was asking for them, not for the
entire country. It works out to about $2.30 an acre. That is 30
times less than what some farmers were saying was required.
My question is for the Prime Minister as leader of the
government. Will he not return to the drawing board and design a
real program for Canadian farmers?
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I suggest to the hon. member that he go
home on the weekend and tell the minister in his province that it
should put some money in because it has indicated to me that it
will not even put 40 cents in.
The province of Saskatchewan has indicated that it does not want
to support its farmers any more than it is now. The federal
government will if it does. If it does not, we will not.
* * *
ETHICS COUNSELLOR
Right Hon. Joe Clark (Calgary Centre, PC): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the Prime Minister who cannot blame his
trustee. When the Prime Minister was sworn in as Prime Minister
in 1993, the guidelines that were in place at that time required
him to file a formal report of all assets that are not exempt
assets. Under the law an account receivable in not an exempt
asset. It is required to be formally reported.
In his first filing as Prime Minister, why did the Prime
Minister not report the account receivable respecting the
Grand-Mère Golf Club shares? Why did he not follow the rules of
the land?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): For the
billionth time, Mr. Speaker, I followed all the rules that were
demanded at that time by the ethics counsellor. The trustee did
her job as did every other member. We had to do it and we have
done it.
I received a letter in return from Mr. Wilson that I have
complied with all the rules that existed at that date in November
1992.
Right Hon. Joe Clark (Calgary Centre, PC): Mr. Speaker,
the Prime Minister stated that Mr. Jean Carle was not involved in
any way in the auberge file. Then he changed his story.
He said he declared the assets of the money owed on his golf
course club shares. The ethics counsellor has a different
version. He said he did not hide anything from anyone, yet he
did not tell the ethics counsellor that he twice phoned the
president of the bank and then summoned him to 24 Sussex Drive.
It is time to clear the reputation of the Prime Minister. Will
he agree to name Mr. Justice Ted Hughes to examine all the
evidence to determine if there has been a conflict of interest
and then to report to the House of Commons?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. leader of the fifth party said last week that
he had no proof of anything. He invited Canadians to give him
some information.
He said to reporters that he was going fishing, and for five
weeks he has gone fishing and has caught nothing. He should be
ashamed today to be in the House defending the former president
of the bank who tried to increase his pension from $170,000 to
$460,000 and was caught by the auditor general.
* * *
THE ECONOMY
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, the bad economic data continues to arise from the
United States and the finance minister continues to tell us that
there is no issue in terms of the downturn.
Why will the minister not clearly commit to bringing forward a
budget that addresses the new economic climate in which we find
ourselves and which places a much greater priority on protecting
us from potential downturn?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the hon. member knows that right from the very beginning
I have said that Canada is not immune from a downturn in the
United States.
I have also said that is why the prudence in our October
statement was so important in protecting the national fisc. It
is also why it is so important to recognize that on January 1
Canada brought in more fiscal stimulus to counter that kind of a
downturn than has any other industrial country.
Mr. Jason Kenney (Calgary Southeast, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, the finance minister knows that the tax cuts being
discussed in the United States, even at the low end, will far
exceed the kind of tax relief that he has talked about, which is
about $47 billion over four years when we take out the CPP tax
increase, the reindexation and the non-increases in taxes.
1435
What does he plan to do to increase the country's
competitiveness with the United States in terms of taxation apart
from just giving us this sort of empty rhetoric?
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of Finance, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the tax cuts represent $17 billion in this year. That
is six times greater than the tax cuts contemplated by George
Bush.
In terms of improving the country's competitiveness, in addition
to the corporate tax cuts and the capital gains tax cuts the
government has put unparalleled amounts into research and
development, opposed by the Alliance. The government has put
major amounts of money into education and into research chairs,
opposed by the Alliance.
The fact is that the government has given the Canadian economy a
foundation for the future, all of which was opposed by the
Alliance.
* * *
[Translation]
FREE TRADE AREA OF THE AMERICAS
Ms. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the federal
government keeps telling us that it is consulting provincial
governments extensively, but Quebec's Minister of Industry and
Trade, Guy Julien, said that it did not consult the provinces so
much as inform them.
His statements were corroborated by social groups that have met
with the Minister for International Trade. My question is as
follows.
How can a government claim that it is engaged in extensive
consultations with the provinces, given what Guy Julien has said?
[English]
Mr. Pat O'Brien (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for
International Trade, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, facts are facts. The
Minister for International Trade met very recently with the
provincial trade ministers of all provinces, including the
minister for Quebec.
He met one on one with the minister of trade from the province
of Quebec. In fact there was a planned meeting of some three
hours and the whole time was not even necessary.
[Translation]
Ms. Francine Lalonde (Mercier, BQ): Mr. Speaker, there is a
big difference between being informed and being involved, and the
government should know what it is.
The Quebec National Assembly's institutions committee asked
that, before the free trade area of the Americas agreement was
implemented, it be submitted for the approval of the National
Assembly and of all legislative assemblies in the case of matters
falling within their jurisdiction.
Does the Prime Minister intend to proceed in this way and submit
the agreement for the approval of the House of Commons, before
approving it officially?
[English]
Mr. Pat O'Brien (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for
International Trade, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is quite clear
that we have a Minister for International Trade who is a proud
Quebecer and the Right Hon. the Prime Minister who is a proud
Quebecer. I think the interests of Quebec are being very well
taken care of in this file.
As I have said and as we said in the debate a week ago in the
House, the normal process will be followed. When the Government
of Canada is satisfied that a proposed trade deal is in the
interests of Canada, it will sign that agreement and bring it to
the House of Commons for full debate.
The minister has agreed to a take note debate prior to that, but
the normal process will be followed, amendments will be possible,
and then the legislation will be voted on.
* * *
CORRECTIONAL SERVICE CANADA
Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, Dr. Earnest Dick of Matsqui penitentiary recently
said that eight out of ten prisoners can be stoned on heroine at
any one time. That is quite a remarkable record of zero
tolerance after seven years. This was on the same television
show that the solicitor general appeared and said how horrible it
was.
Maybe the solicitor general could stand in the House and
enlighten us all on how it is possible to have enough drugs that
80% of the population could be on heroine at any one time?
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Solicitor General of Canada,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as my hon. colleague is well aware and as
I informed him before, positive results from drug testing have
been reduced from 39% to 12%.
We are well aware that we have a drug problem in our
institutions. That is why we put ion scanners in the
institutions. That is why we will put dogs in the institutions.
That is why we will make sure we have searches of all people,
including employees, at each of the institutions so we can stop
the flow of drugs in and educate—
The Speaker: The hon. member for Langley—Abbotsford.
1440
Mr. Randy White (Langley—Abbotsford, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, he needs more than ion scanners and dogs, because
about half an hour ago five employees of Kingston penitentiary
were being suspended for drug trafficking within the prison.
According to crown counsel no charges have been laid. If drug
trafficking occurred outside the prison, drug charges would have
been laid. I would like to know from the solicitor general how
it could be easier to traffic inside the prison with less penalty
than it is to traffic outside the prison.
Hon. Lawrence MacAulay (Solicitor General of Canada,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague has raised an issue
that is being investigated by the RCMP, but I think what he said
previous to that statement indicates how important it is that we
put the measures in place which the government has put in place
to make sure that the flow of drugs is stopped from entering the
institutions, and to make sure that offenders in institutions are
aware of what they are doing to themselves: possibly committing a
death sentence on themselves by using needles and drugs.
* * *
[Translation]
FREE TRADE AREA OF THE AMERICAS
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, yesterday, we
asked the Prime Minister to make the documents to be used in the
negotiations at the summit of the Americas available to the
members of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, which will
be dealing with this question. The Prime Minister answered that
he would consult his minister.
I ask him today: has he had the opportunity to consult his
minister and is it his intention to make them available, as
Quebec is doing?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
will speak to my minister, who is out of the country at the
moment. I will speak to him about it as soon as I have the
chance.
We have already made Canada's position public. It is even on
government's website. So the members may access it easily. We
will make public everything we can.
However, we must honour our commitments to the other countries.
If they do not want us to make public the documents they give
us, we will keep them confidential.
Mr. Michel Gauthier (Roberval, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the Government
of Quebec is doing exactly what the American government is
doing.
Are we to understand that, for the Prime Minister, by its
actions, namely, making the negotiation documents available to
elected officials, the American government is failing to keep
its word to the partners?
Right Hon. Jean Chrétien (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
this is a conference that Canada will be chairing. It is very
important I follow all the rules agreed upon before the
conference, in order to guide it to a successful conclusion.
I will make public all the documents I can make public. That
will give me great pleasure. However, I will do nothing that
will reduce my credibility with the 34 heads of government who
will be there.
* * *
[English]
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mr. John Cummins (Delta—South Richmond, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, yesterday's earthquake centred 35
miles southwest of Seattle caused my daughter's teacher in Delta
to stumble against her desk while my daughter's classmates dived
under their desks.
When the big one hits the lower mainland, help is now 750 miles
away in Edmonton because the government shut down the military
base in Chilliwack. That means that U.S. army engineers will be
in a better position to help British Columbians than our own
Canadian army.
Why must Canadians look south to our U.S. neighbour for help,
for their safety? Why has the government abandoned the third
largest city in Canada?
Hon. Art Eggleton (Minister of National Defence, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, that is simply not true. There is a national
earthquake support plan. We are prepared to move troops or do
whatever we need to do in terms of emergency support into the
area.
We have regular troops at Esquimalt and at Comox. We have
regular troops in British Columbia. We have reserve units
throughout the province of British Columbia. At a moment's
notice we could bring in support from other parts of the country,
as we have been able to do in other disasters that have occurred
in Canada.
Mr. John Cummins (Delta—South Richmond, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, that is pathetic. A state highway
collapsed in Puget Sound, highway overpasses were shut down and
the Seattle airport was shut down.
1445
If, no, when a major quake strikes British Columbia the lower
mainland of B.C. will be isolated from the rest of Canada. We
will have to rely on Americans for our safety. Why has this
government abandoned British Columbia?
Hon. Art Eggleton (Minister of National Defence, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, again that is absolutely not true. We have a
national earthquake plan. We have the troops. We were able to
move troops during the ice storm. We were able to move troops
during the Saguenay flood. We were able to move troops during
the Red River flood. When they were needed we were able to move
troops to all parts of the country.
We do have regular troops and reserve troops already in British
Columbia. If necessary, hopefully this will not happen, but if
necessary we will be there to support the national earthquake
plan.
* * *
AGRICULTURE
Mr. Murray Calder (Dufferin—Peel—Wellington—Grey,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of
Agriculture.
For months now the members on this side, both rural and urban,
have been lobbying the minister to get more money for farmers to
help them through this difficult time. He has made an
announcement today of an extra half a billion dollars worth of
funding for farmers.
I want to know how that will work coupled with the programs that
we have in place already.
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, first, I want to thank all of the caucus
members for the support that they have given to the government in
finding the resources to help farmers.
When agriculture and farmers in Canada have special
circumstances we try to find all the resources we possibly can to
help them. The half a billion dollars in federal money that I
announced today brings the safety net support for Canadian
farmers to $1.6 billion. Coupled with the 40% added by the
provinces, the total safety net support for farmers this year
alone is $2.26 billion.
* * *
HOUSING
Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Mr. Speaker,
again another report today zeros in on the government's failure
to meet its own objectives with the national children's agenda
because of its refusal to provide safe affordable housing.
There are 1.7 million families living at risk in mouldy, damp
and expensive housing where exposure to cockroach antigens
increases asthma in children. It is hard to believe that this is
happening in Canada but it is because of government neglect.
How many more poor families will forfeit their future because
the minister responsible for housing will not do his job?
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano (Minister of Public Works and
Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, to the contrary, we
are moving forward on this file. Besides the $2 billion a year
the Government of Canada puts into housing and the mortgage
issuer's program, which has helped to build 1,000 units a year,
we also have the RRAP.
In the throne speech we announced that we would be coming up
with affordable housing programs very soon that will help the
industry to build affordable units for all Canadians in need.
Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the
minister knows very well that the $2 billion that he speaks of is
money that has already been committed to mortgages for houses
that were built years and years ago. The fact is that this
government has not committed any money to build new social
housing since 1993. As a result, it is saying that poor kids and
poor families must line up at emergency shelters.
I ask again: When will the government live up to its
responsibility and provide this basic human right, the right to
safe, affordable, secure housing?
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano (Minister of Public Works and
Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, besides the $2
billion, the government has been putting $1 million a year into
the RRAP program to improve and repair the existing housing stock
so we can house needy Canadians.
We have a public and private partnership program which has built
more than 16,000 units since 1994. We are working with the
provinces and we will soon come up with an affordable housing
program.
* * *
PUBLIC WORKS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Public Works.
Would the minister tell the House who gave the authority to the
government committee to ignore the treasury board guidelines
9.1.1 and 9.1.2 when it drafted the letter of interest for the
maritime helicopter project?
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano (Minister of Public Works and
Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the announcement of
the procurement strategy for the maritime helicopter was a
government decision.
I believe that treasury board is part of the government. I do not
know what she is saying exactly. She has been trying since this
morning to make the case but she does not have the facts right.
1450
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, I have
to say that the Minister of Public Works and Government Services
does not have his facts straight.
How can the minister justify that his department issued a letter
of interest that contained a lowest price compliant clause when
that same violated treasury board guidelines and when the
Department of National Defence at no time made a recommendation
that the process be conducted on the lowest price base? It is
supposed to agree before a letter of interest can be put out.
Hon. Alfonso Gagliano (Minister of Public Works and
Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my department issued
a letter of interest according to the government's position. I
repeat, the treasury board or any other organization within the
Government of Canada is part of the Government of Canada. This
was a government position.
* * *
NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, the truth of the matter is that the armed forces in the
country have been stripped to the bare bones by the government.
Yesterday's earthquake on the west coast illustrates this kind of
a crisis.
In 1994 the government punished B.C. for not voting Liberal by
shutting down the army base in Chilliwack even though the
military itself did not want CFB Chilliwack to be shut down.
My question is for the Minister of National Defence. Will he
now reassess this politically motivated decision?
Hon. Art Eggleton (Minister of National Defence, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, the earthquake occurred at 11 a.m. yesterday
morning. All those people over there, many of whom are from
British Columbia, said absolutely nothing in question period
yesterday.
I must say that the government is quicker to act than the
opposition. We have a national earthquake support plan. We have
troops that are in British Columbia. We have regular troops in
British Columbia. We have reserve troops throughout the
province. We can move in whatever support services are needed
from any other part of the country, as we and our troops have
demonstrated many times before.
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, shame on the defence minister and his policy for
disaster.
The minister knows that the Liberal policies and actions have
dangerously reduced the basic level of emergency preparedness in
Vancouver and all over British Columbia.
Again I ask the minister, why does the government continue to
play politics with the safety of people in British Columbia?
Hon. Art Eggleton (Minister of National Defence, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, in the supplementary estimates this morning the
government indicated its commitment to the Canadian forces with
an additional $624 million. When we add that to the $2.5 billion
that has been put into the last two budgets, over $3 billion has
been put in as an investment into the Canadian forces.
While those people over there babble on, the government is
investing in the forces and in the security and safety of
Canadians from earthquakes or from any other natural disaster.
* * *
[Translation]
FREE TRADE AREA OF THE AMERICAS
Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg—Jacques-Cartier, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, yesterday, when I asked the Parliamentary Secretary to
the Minister for International Trade about the negotiations on
the FTAA, he said, and I quote, “Why would the province of
Quebec, or any other province in Canada, be sitting there when
there is a federal minister and a federal government elected to
represent very adequately the interests of all Canadians?”
Does the parliamentary secretary realize that neither Quebecers
nor the Quebec government mandated the federal government to
negotiate on their behalf anything that involves Quebec's
jurisdictions?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, there is a misunderstanding.
Under the Canadian Constitution, the federal government has a
mandate to negotiate treaties. But when it comes to exclusive
provincial jurisdictions, if a province does not like a treaty,
it does not have to implement it.
What is irresponsible is to announce that a treaty will not be
implemented when no one has even seen it.
Mr. Richard Marceau (Charlesbourg—Jacques-Cartier, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, could the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs tell us
which section of the written constitution supports his claims
that he can take over from provincial elected representatives and
represent them at negotiations that involve exclusive provincial
jurisdictions? To which section is the minister referring?
Hon. Stéphane Dion (President of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, I am referring to sections 91 and 92 of the
Constitution.
* * *
1455
[English]
AGRICULTURE
Mr. David Anderson (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, the lowest estimate for an effective
emergency cash injection needed for farmers is $900 million.
Today the minister of agriculture said he would deliver half that
amount through the existing failed programs. From what I
understand, if the provinces will not work with him it could be
zero.
Why does the government continue to ignore the advice of every
farm group in Canada?
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member would talk to the
ministers of agriculture and the farmers across the country he
would know they wanted the support through the existing companion
programs that are taken in co-operation with the federal
government and the provinces. It is through that program that a
half a billion dollars of federal money will be delivered.
Mr. David Anderson (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, it is interesting that the main
estimates for the agriculture department have been reduced by
$470 million from last year. All the agriculture minister has
done is replaced what the government has already taken away from
farmers.
How many farmers must go broke before the government wakes up?
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food,
Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member would study the
supplementary estimates and read them in the way they are
supposed to be read, he would see that we did not cut money to
agriculture. I suggest that if he does not know how to read them
he should get a briefing.
What we did today is we added $500 million and, with the support
of the provinces, that will be $830 million more for farmers in
Canada now than it was before lunch today.
* * *
TRADE
Mr. Tony Tirabassi (Niagara Centre, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
my question is for the Minister for International Trade.
The issue of access for Canadian wines to the European market is
very important to the wine industry. The government has recently
made representations to the European Union for Canadian ice wine.
Will the Minister for International Trade provide the House with
an update?
Mr. Pat O'Brien (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for
International Trade, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to
thank the hon. member for his question and all colleagues in that
region of Ontario for their strong interest in this file.
I am very pleased to announce that following representations
made by this government, including the minister of agriculture,
as well as the Canadian wine industry, an important first step
has been made. The European Union has just voted in favour of
giving access to Canadian ice wine. We continue our work on this
important file.
* * *
TRANSPORTATION
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, recently, when it was pointed out to the finance
minister that he returns only 3% of the gasoline tax that he
takes from British Columbia for the highways, he went on
endlessly about everything except the highways.
The transport minister is fully aware of the death trap that the
Trans-Canada Highway has become in my constituency, yet the
transport minister will not do anything about it. He will not
even come to my constituency.
Just when is this government going to get serious and assume its
national responsibilities and its share of the Trans-Canada
Highway?
Mr. Brent St. Denis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the House is well aware that
the finance minister in the recent budget announced a $2.65
billion, which is partnership funding with provincial and
territorial governments. A major chunk of those dollars is for
highways.
It is really up to the provinces to set their priorities.
Negotiations are going on right now. If the member is a little
more patient he will find the answer to what he is looking for.
Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, the amount of money is $600 million over six years,
$100 million a year over the entire country, $10 million for the
province of British Columbia. This is absolutely pathetic. We
know the government spends hundreds of millions if not billions
of dollars in other provincial projects in conjunction with the
provinces, yet this government will not talk to the province of
B.C.
Why is it that highway money stops at the B.C. border?
Mr. Brent St. Denis (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Transport, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I cannot accept the premise of
the member's question and preamble. This government is very
serious about infrastructure from coast to coast and B.C. is just
as important as any other part of this country when it comes to
infrastructure.
Those negotiations are ongoing right now. I encourage the
member, as I said, to be patient.
* * *
1500
[Translation]
SUMMIT OF THE AMERICAS
Ms. Diane Bourgeois (Terrebonne—Blainville, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
in view of the effects the creation of a free trade area of the
Americas will have on revenue, health, culture and the family, it
is important, indeed urgent, that women be included in the
decisions.
My question is for the Secretary of State for the Status of
Women. To date, have women's organizations in Quebec and Canada
been invited to take part in some way in the summit of the
Americas and what sort of consultation has been done to ensure
that women's concerns are given consideration?
[English]
Hon. Hedy Fry (Secretary of State (Multiculturalism)(Status
of Women), Lib.): Mr. Speaker, there is a body called CIM
that works specifically on gender issues within the Organization
of American States.
There was a meeting of that body and NGOs were there. In fact,
members of that particular political party came to the meeting.
The recommendations from that meeting will be discussed by the
leaders at the meeting in Quebec.
* * *
FOREIGN AFFAIRS
Mr. David Pratt (Nepean—Carleton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my
question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs. The Ottawa
convention banning anti-personnel land mines has been in force
for two years now. Could the minister explain to the House what
the government has done, is doing and will do to ensure the
success of this vital international convention?
Hon. John Manley (Minister of Foreign Affairs, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the land mines treaty is a great accomplishment of
Canadian diplomacy and of my predecessor Lloyd Axworthy.
Yesterday, on its second anniversary, we had the 111th country
ratifying the treaty. We have seen a significant reduction in
land mine problems around the world as fewer mines are going out
than are being withdrawn from the minefields. The number of
injuries is falling.
Canada has made an important contribution to de-mining efforts
in countries as disparate as Nicaragua, Jordan, Bosnia and
Afghanistan. This is a credit to Canada. This is the kind of
thing we need to be doing.
* * *
PRESENCE IN GALLERY
The Speaker: I draw the attention of all hon. members
to the presence in the gallery of the Hon. Chris Axworthy, QC,
the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Minister of Justice
and Attorney General of the Province of Saskatchewan.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
* * *
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I have a question for the government House leader about
the business of the House for the rest of this week.
I realize we have a break week coming up, but could he possibly
tell us what the business of the House will be for the week after
the break and perhaps tell us whether we will have any kind of a
special debate on the future of CFB Chilliwack?
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, immediately after this statement
I will be seeking consent of the House to revert to introduction
of bills for the purpose of introducing a bill on shipping
conferences. I discussed it with other House leaders on Tuesday.
This afternoon we will continue with the allotted day. Tomorrow
we will debate Bill C-13, the GST technical amendments.
On return from the break, we will debate the Canada Shipping Act
amendments to be introduced later this afternoon if the House
gives its consent. This would be followed by Bill C-12, the
Judges Act amendments.
I am consulting widely with a view to finding a suitable time in
the immediate future to complete second reading of Bill C-5, the
species at risk bill. Hopefully that will get done very quickly.
Tuesday, March 13, and Thursday, March 15, shall be allotted
days.
As I said, although we are still negotiating, my intention at
this point would be on the March 16 to commence the debate on
Bill C-4, the sustainable development foundation bill.
* * *
1505
[Translation]
POINTS OF ORDER
STANDING ORDERS
Mr. André Bachand (Richmond—Arthabaska, PC): Mr. Speaker, I
rise on a point of order with respect to the motion under
Government Business No. 2. I implore the Chair to grant me a few
minutes. This is a point I want to raise with this House and with
you in particular, Mr. Speaker, knowing full well that you will
be concerned by it.
As you know, Tuesday of this week, the government used closure
to force the House to change the amendment process in the
Standing Orders of the House.
The government took this action after giving notice once, last
Friday, following only two hours of debate. We want our
amendments respected at committee report stage.
We are trying to understand at the moment and to grasp this new
rule the government has imposed on the House. I refer in
particular to the last sentence of the new government rule, which
states, and I quote:
This is essentially what Erskine May said in a document in
English only.
I am trying to understand the subtlety of this regulatory
innovation.
We asked the Journals Branch of the House of Commons for
information in French, so as to understand that new rule. Nothing
is available in French.
This is quite understandable, since documents are not translated
in French in the House of Commons of the United Kingdom. Gone are
the days when French was the language of the monarchy. As a
francophone member of parliament from Quebec who wants to
understand the subtleties of that new rule, I would like to at
least have the opportunity to examine it in my own language. It
would make it easier to understand and to discuss.
How can I do my job properly if I must draft amendments and the
rules governing that process remain an unfathomable mystery
because they are in English?
Section 133 of the Constitution Act, of 1867, guarantees and
protects my right to use my language, French, during the
proceedings of the House of Commons. This is a right, and I want
that right to be respected. A number of hon. members in this
House have always fought and continue to fight to have French
recognized. The hon. government House leader is a prime example.
No one here is able to tell me in my own language the scope of
that rule. But to do my work effectively as a member of
parliament, I must understand the nuances and subtleties of a
rule of law. I must understand its very essence. In order to do
so, I must have an opportunity to study that rule in my language.
Only anglophone members of parliament will have that privilege.
Until all members of the House have access to complete,
substantive rules and a full description in the French language
of the practices of the House of Commons of the United Kingdom,
it is impossible for me to know and to understand what now
constitutes a satisfactory amendment.
I am entitled to have at my disposal the necessary tools to
present an effective argument. I must be able to reply to
objections when members try to attack our amendments. As a
francophone MP, this new rule subjects me to an arbitrary and
inaccessible decision.
This is the 21st century. When my amendments are attacked, I am
entitled to be able to reply knowledgeably. I am entitled to
know the rules of this House and to have access to them in my
mother tongue, French.
Until my rights and those of other francophones are protected
and respected, I respectfully and humbly ask that the Chair
suspend the execution of this measure. Francophone members must
be on an equal footing with the other members of this House when
we prepare amendments. A double standard will never do.
1510
We are all entitled to an equal opportunity to have our
amendments selected, debated and voted on in the House. I
should not be penalized because I work in French.
What I am calling on you to do is to protect the rights of all
members of the House and to treat us all alike in the 21st
century.
The government unilaterally invoked closure. This was a blatant
attack by the government on one of the linguistic groups sitting
in this House, and was not what we expected from many hon.
members, including the government House leader.
We francophone MPs have had rules and practices imposed on us
and will have to work with them in English only. We really
cannot call London every time we want to understand how the rule
works.
Are we to hire translators to consult officials in London? Would
it be up to them to explain to us, poor francophones that we
are, the subtleties of the rule? I ask the question quite simply
and with all due respect.
Once again, I ask you to declare this rule inoperative. This is
not the first time that the rules have created a conflict with
reality. Some of your predecessors, Mr. Speaker, have addressed
similar situations. I ask you to declare that linguistic
equality, the creator of opportunities in this House, will take
precedence so that all members may have the same opportunity to
learn the rules of the game.
In closing, I would remind you that we have a law in Canada
called the Official Languages Act. Very quickly, I quote for
your consideration two paragraphs to the preamble to the act. The
first indicates that the law provides:
The fourth paragraph is of particular interest to us as it
pertains to the work involved in putting amendments forward,
because the government House leader's motion deals with this:
I will conclude by reminding the House of section 2 of the act,
which reads as follows:
Imagine if it had been decided in this House that, from now on,
in order to help members make decisions, we will be using
documents in French only. Some MPs would have stood up and said
“This is treason. Quebec is once again taking precedence.
Francophones want to take control”. But think about it. As the
act says, we must:
And what is most important:
I respectfully submit this argument—knowing you, Mr. Speaker,
and knowing the parliamentarians in this House—and I hope for a
ruling in favour of removing this insulting measure which
prevents us from working in both official languages and
understanding a very important process, namely the procedure
regarding amendments made to any government bill.
I thank you, Mr. Speaker, for giving me this time. I truly
appreciate it and I am waiting for your comments.
Hon. Don Boudria (Leader of the Government in the House of
Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the member is trying to use a
linguistic argument to win a political point. First, I must say
that he is completely distorting the motion already passed by
this House, as all parliamentarians are aware, and, second, a
few days later, he is using this point in an attempt to
legitimize something completely different.
Neither the government House leader nor anyone else here has
invented the fact that section 1 of our constitution says that
we are guided by the parliamentary practices of the United
Kingdom. I was certainly not around when that was written.
1515
It is the same in the Quebec National Assembly and everywhere
else in Canada.
The member opposite is perfectly aware of this. If he did not
know any better, it would perhaps be half excusable. But that
is not the case. The member is perfectly aware of this.
And his leader today, who dares to grumble right now, was one of
our country's premiers. It is a disgrace.
The articles of our present rules, the Parliament of Canada Act,
all refer to the fact that we are guided by the principle of the
United Kingdom parliament.
Have we rejected our style of parliament? Are we going to
reject the fact that we live in a system known as responsible
government? What kind of nonsense is that?
They are doing this to make a cheap political point, to try to
monopolize a rule that does not even exist.
What upsets me the most is that the hon. member is using the
language of my ancestors, of my children and of my grandchildren
to do so. This is the shameful part. He should rise and offer
his apologies to this hon. House for daring to perpetrate such an
act today. The member opposite knows full well he is in the
wrong. He knows what he has just said is not right. But it has
been done.
I know that the Speaker of the House knows these rules much
better than I do. And I know as well that he will recognize that
we are guided everywhere, unless indicated elsewhere in the
Standing Orders, by the practices of the United Kingdom.
The member opposite claimed that I drew on Erskine May. Even if
that were true, and it is not, Erskine May's is one of our
procedural manuals on the table before me in this hon. House,
quoted by one and all, including the person today in the Chair.
The member opposite knows better than what he is saying, and I
know that he will fail to influence the Chair, which will act
with its usual wisdom.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron (Verchères—Les-Patriotes, BQ): Mr.
Speaker, I am surprised to hear such rhetoric from the government
House leader. I guess it is somewhat embarrassing to get caught
with one's pants down. And the government House leader is
obviously embarrassed.
He feels compelled to invoke the Canadian constitution, which
tells us of course that this parliament is a British type of
parliament and that, consequently, its rules and procedures are
patterned on those of the United Kingdom parliament. He feels
compelled to do that to refute the argument of the hon. member
for Richmond—Arthabaska.
Mr. Speaker, allow me to say that, in my opinion, the point
raised by the member for Richmond—Arthabaska is of the utmost
importance.
If the government House leader thought that the section of the
Canadian constitution was enough for us to understand his motion,
why did he feel necessary to include in Government Business No. 2
an explicit reference to the fact that the Speaker shall be
guided by the practice followed in the House of Commons of the
United Kingdom? This is a fundamental issue.
This is indeed a British type of parliament. But all of us in
this House know that, while this parliament may be a British type
of parliament, it has its own distinctive features and rules.
1520
Consequently we cannot decide from the outset that whatever
applies in the United Kingdom automatically applies here in
Canada, since we have our own rules and precedents. Only in the
absence of rules and precedents do we look at how things are done
in London, only then do we look at the rules and precedents are
in London. Otherwise, we follow our own rules.
Here, in the Parliament of Canada, we have our own rules and I
fail to see why we should get excited the way the government
House leader has about the fact that we simply want to point out
that among these rules there is one requiring that this
parliament operate in both official languages, French and
English.
Of course, the motion refers to the United Kingdom. Suppose
that this motion had referred to practices in effect in France's
national assembly. What would have been the reaction of our
anglophone colleagues? They would have said “My God, what are
the practices of the French national assembly, and how can I
become familiar with them, because they are available in French
only?”
The point being made by the member for Richmond—Arthabaska is
of the utmost importance. For that reason alone, Mr. Speaker, you
must give it consideration.
I would add another reason, which I mentioned in my speech on
the motion of the government House leader. Naturally, he
reminded us that his motion had been duly passed in the House. I
need hardly point out that this motion, which amends a practice
of this parliament, was imposed by the government majority, that
the opposition parties did not support this practice that the
government House leader wants to introduce, that he did not even
have the courage to amend the standing orders, and that he is
indirectly trying to force you, Mr. Speaker, to take a stand in a
political debate.
Mr. Speaker, with respect to the intervention by my colleague
from Richmond—Arthabaska and with respect to the motion itself,
as passed by the government majority, I refer you to pages 260
and 261 of Montpetit and Marleau, and I quote:
The duties of the Speaker of the House of Commons require
balancing the rights and interests of the majority and minority
in the House to ensure that the public business is efficiently
transacted and that the interests of all parts of the House are
advocated and protected against the use of arbitrary authority.
It is in this spirit that the Speaker, as the chief servant of
the House, applies the rules.
The Speaker is the servant, not of any part of the House or any
majority in the House, but of the entire institution and the
best interests of the House as distilled over many generations
in its practices.
[English]
Mr. Derek Lee (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the
Government in the House of Commons, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, just
to assist the Chair, although I am not sure the Chair will always
need much assistance, the member opposite has suggested that a
very important point has been raised and I suggest to you that it
is not a very important point.
The House relies on constitutional law that goes as far back as
1215. I do not think the Magna Carta was written in any other
language but English.
Mr. Stéphane Bergeron: What does that mean?
Mr. Derek Lee: The House relies on constitutional law
written in the years 1688 and 1689. That was the bill of rights
that happened to have been written in the English language in the
United Kingdom as it then was. In the Parliament of Canada Act,
as it exists right now, right in the statute that provides a
statutory basis for much—
Some hon. members: Oh, oh.
Mr. Derek Lee: They do not want to listen, Mr. Speaker. I
am proposing that I make these remarks for your benefit,
obviously not for theirs. They do not want to listen.
Section 4 of the Parliament of Canada Act states very clearly
the following:
4. The Senate and the House of Commons, respectively, and the
members thereof hold, enjoy and exercise
(a) such and the like privileges, immunities and powers as, at
the time of the passing of the Constitution Act, 1867, were held,
enjoyed and exercised by the Commons House of Parliament of the
United Kingdom and by the members thereof, in so far as is
consistent with that Act—
1525
Our laws already make reference to the laws as they exist or may
have evolved in the parliamentary envelope, all the way from the
beginning of Confederation. We still do it, we continue to do it
and there is nothing improper. I do not happen to think it is a
very important point, although the fact that the House should
always be operating in two languages is, and the House does, and
there have been two languages used on this point of order.
I think the reference to the Parliament of Canada Act will help
you, Mr. Speaker, to deal with this point of order.
Right Hon. Joe Clark (Calgary Centre, PC): Mr. Speaker, I
will be very brief on this point and I will speak in my first
language.
I want to speak of the law of Canada and particularly the
Official Languages Act of Canada. Many members of the House will
remember not many months ago when we stood in tribute to the
memory of the late Right Hon. Pierre Trudeau. He was a man with
whom I disagreed on many matters. He brought in a law that wrote
into the law of the land the bilingual nature of this country and
particularly of this institution.
There are many of us here in the House who fought to support
that law and fought to support that principle. That is the
principle that is at risk here today. If we, citing laws from a
century ago, a time when Canada was a colony of Britain and not
an independent country, start a precedent here of saying that the
unilingualism that was part of Canada's past should prevail over
the bilingualism that is part of Canada's law and present, then
we are on a dangerous and slippery slope.
I frankly am shocked to hear these arguments coming from
members of the party that was created and given such momentum by
the late Mr. Trudeau, by members of the party of the late Mr.
Pearson who fought so hard to assure a respect for the official
languages of the country.
The Official Languages Act is clear. It says:
The purpose of this Act is to—ensure equality of status and
equal rights and privileges as to their use in all federal
institutions, in particular with respect to their use in
parliamentary proceedings, in legislative and other instruments,
in the administration of justice, in communicating with or
providing services to the public and in carrying out the work of
federal institutions—
This is the central and most important federal institution of
the land. If we are not, on a particular item, going to respect
the full import of the Official Languages Act in the proceedings
of this parliament, then it is in danger everywhere.
This is raised by my colleague as a point of order. It could
almost be a point of privilege because it goes to the roots of
the purpose of the House and it goes to the roots of the
bilingual nature of the country.
We have all engaged in debate in the House and sometimes said
intemperate things. All of us do. I would hope that the
government House leader and his colleagues will consider what he
has just said. I would hope that they would consider the tone in
which he spoke, perhaps not deliberately; that is not the issue.
No one is accusing anyone of anything deliberate, although I have
to say that if this is proceeded with, if there is an attempt to
steamroll over this legitimate concern that has been raised by
francophone and other members of the House, then it becomes a
deliberate slight of the principles of the law concerning the
Official Languages Act of Canada.
[Translation]
I call on my colleagues in the Liberal Party, a party I worked
with in having the Official Languages Act adopted across Canada,
to reconsider and to insist on the application in fact here of
the fundamental principle of this act as concerns the rights of
the francophone members of this House.
[English]
Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Regina—Qu'Appelle, NDP): Mr.
Speaker, I also want to associate our party with the remarks of
the right hon. gentleman from Calgary Centre. As a westerner I
see how important it is that we have the absolute equality of the
two languages in the House.
I remember the great debate over the Official Languages Act in
1969 when I was a member of parliament, and I remember the
commitment made by all three parties in the House at that time
that the two languages would be absolutely equal here in the
House of Commons. I think that is a fundamental principle and it
is a principle we must continue.
What happened the other day in the House of Commons runs the risk
of deviating from that principle. I hope that the minister will
come back and amend what he said in the House a short time ago.
1530
It is extremely important that we have the absolute equality of
the two languages in the institution of parliament, indeed in all
other institutions in the country. We have the Official
Languages Act and the principles of that act are extremely
important. People tend to forget the long battle toward
achieving that act in 1969.
There was a time not long before that when there was no
instantaneous translation, for example, in the Cabinet of Canada.
It was not long before that when there was no translation in the
House of Commons. That was quite the achievement by the
parliament of the day.
Later on we had the patriation of the constitution, once again
enshrining the equality of the two languages in the constitution
of the country.
It is very important that we make sure to continue those
principles in the House in every way possible. I support the
point of order raised by my friend of the Conservative Party from
the province of Quebec.
The Speaker: The Chair wants to thank all hon. members
for their interventions on this point.
[Translation]
I will consider the opinions expressed by the hon. members and I
will return to the House with a ruling later.
* * *
[English]
PRIVILEGE
BILL C-2—TIME ALLOCATION—SPEAKER'S RULING
The Deputy Speaker: I am now ready to rule on the
question of privilege raised by the opposition House leader, the
hon. member for Fraser Valley, on February 13, 2001.
Subsequent to the adoption of a time allocation motion in
relation to Bill C-2, an act to amend the Employment Insurance
Act and employment insurance regulations, the hon. member rose on
a question of privilege to express his concern and dismay about
the frequency with which the government had resorted to time
allocation to cut off debate prematurely on legislation during
the 35th and 36th parliaments, a trend he believes is to continue
in the present parliament. The hon. member claimed that the
government's use of time allocation was a misuse of its authority
and that the time had come “to declare the measures imposed by
the government today as excessive and unorthodox”.
The hon. member argued that the Speaker has the authority to
refuse to put a time allocation motion if, in his judgment, the
government is abusing its powers and the rules of the House by
not allowing sufficient amount of time for debate. He concluded
his argument by suggesting that the Speaker consider the amount
of authority and discretion available to the Chair to decide not
to propose to the House a motion of time allocation if there has
not been a sufficient period of time for debate.
[Translation]
I wish to thank the hon. government House leader, the House
leader of the Bloc Quebecois, the hon. member for Roberval, the
House leader of the New Democratic Party, the hon. member for
Winnipeg—Transcona, the House leader of the Progressive
Conservative Party, the hon. member for
Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, and the hon. member for St.
Albert for their interventions.
The request that is being made of the Chair in this instance is
one which places me in a position of some delicacy. It is, of
course, true that the Chair uses its discretion on every occasion
on which it intervenes. That is not to say, however, that
rulings are made simply on the Speaker's personal authority.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
House of Commons Procedure and Practice states, at page 570,
and I quote:
1535
[English]
In a ruling on a similar case, Speaker Fraser said, at
Debates, March 31, 1993, page 17860:
—it is not always understood that the Chair is constrained in
what the Chair can do by the rules which this House has passed.
It is not surprising that sometimes some hon. Members, or even
members of the public, feel that the rules we have set for
ourselves may in some cases be unreasonable or even worse.
However, it is extremely important I think that the Chair be
bound by those rules until the House decides to change them.
In the case which gave rise to the point which I am addressing,
there has been no suggestion that the government in any way
deviated from the procedure laid out in the standing orders. I
do not feel, under those circumstances, that there are any
grounds whatsoever which would lead the Chair to intervene. The
Chair wishes to be very clear on this point. The rules and
practices established by this House with respect to time
allocation leave the Speaker with no alternative in this matter.
Speaker Fraser said in the case to which I have already referred,
at Debates March 31, 1993, page 17861:
I have to advise the House that the rule is clear. It is within
the government's discretion to use it. I cannot find any lawful
way that I can exercise a discretion which would unilaterally
break a very specific rule.
In making this ruling, Speaker Fraser was faced with arguments
very close to those before us in the present case.
The question of the extent of the Speaker's authority has been
raised and reference has been made to the practice in the United
Kingdom. The government House leader indicated in his comments
on this question that in other jurisdictions greater use is made
of the scheduling of work both in the House and in committee. It
may be that the House is no longer satisfied with the manner in
which the time allocation rule works. If that is so, it is for
the House to consider and, ultimately, to determine what
procedure will best suit its current circumstances. Planning
done on the basis of consensus could be a significant benefit,
not only for the business of the House but also in promoting an
atmosphere of decorum and respect in which that business is
conducted.
Our system has always been one which functions on the basis of
rules established by the House itself. However, under our
current standing orders, it would be highly inappropriate for the
Chair to take unilateral action on issues already provided for in
the standing orders. Where the standing orders gives the Speaker
some discretion, then it is the Speaker's responsibility to be
guided accordingly; where no such guidance is provided, no such
action can be taken. It is certainly not up to the Chair to
establish a timetable for the business of the House.
[Translation]
It is by its rules and not by the authority of the Speaker that
the House protects itself from excesses, both on the government
side and on that of the opposition. The Speaker's role is to
judge each case as it arises, fairly and objectively, and in so
doing, to ensure that those rules are applied as the House
intended.
[English]
Speaker Lamoureux, when faced with a similar situation stated in
Journals July 24, 1969, page 1398:
The Speaker is the servant of the House. Honourable Members may
want me to be the master of the House today but tomorrow, when,
perhaps in other circumstances I might claim this privilege, they
might have a different opinion—I am not prepared at this time
to take this responsibility on my shoulders. I think it is my
duty to rule on such matters in accordance with the rules,
regulations and standing orders which honourable Members
themselves have turned over to the Speaker to administer.
I would also like to remind the House that the standing order
with respect to time allocation has been invoked only once in
this, the 37th Parliament. I have indicated clearly that this
use of the standing order does not represent a matter of
privilege. If further cases arise, the Chair will deal with them
individually, on their merits. I remind the House that the Chair
will not rule on hypothetical cases or on questions raised only
in the abstract.
Once again, I would like to thank hon. Members for their
carefully considered arguments on this question. The Chair is
conscious of the importance which members on both sides of the
House attach to it.
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
1540
[English]
SUPPLY
ALLOTTED DAY—MARITIME HELICOPTER PROCUREMENT
The House resumed consideration of the motion and of the
amendment.
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask my colleague about the process
that has occurred with the Liberal government in terms of it
cancelling the promise that it made in 1993 to deliver
helicopters. We are still paying for that promise now. We do
not have the equipment in place right now. The Prime Minister
cancelled that unilaterally in 1993. Could he comment on that?
Mr. Peter Goldring: Mr. Speaker, I believe that overall
this indicates a dramatic failure of the Liberal government in
the very basics of governing, which is procuring and supplying
our armed forces with equipment. In fact, this has really been a
25 year procurement boondoggle that is never ending. It is going
on and on and on.
Earlier in my speech, I related my experience coming from the
militaries of the 1960s. Coincidentally this has existed since
the 1960s. In 1962, I took electronics training in Clinton,
Ontario, in the Royal Canadian Air Force. At that time the
transistor was considered to be an unreliable; a new invention.
In that period of time, we have progressed from transistors to
chips with tens of thousands of transistors on them to fibre
optics. The progression has been going on and on. However where
are our helicopters? They are still in the 1960s, while a
Liberal government waffles and waffles and procurement goes on
endlessly.
Mr. David Pratt (Nepean—Carleton, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I
will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Mississauga
South.
This my first speech in the 37th parliament. It is certainly a
great pleasure to be back. I would like to take this
opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to congratulate you on your appointment
as Deputy Speaker. I hope you will relay to the Speaker my very
best wishes and best regards on his election as Speaker.
I am very pleased and deeply honoured that the people of
Nepean—Carleton have put their trust in me to be their voice in
this important, historic and, as we have seen, often colourful
institution.
Politics can be a very busy lifestyle and spouses often bear the
brunt of that lifestyle. I would like to take this opportunity
to thank my wife, Joan, for all her support over three municipal
elections and two federal elections, all successful I might add.
I would also be remiss if I did not say a few words of thanks to
my staff. They are Joan Tierney, Pat Murphy, Carrie Schroder,
Liz Schlesak and Michael May.
It is a pleasure to speak on the motion that was moved by my
hon. colleague from the Progressive Conservative Party.
The government has demonstrated many times its commitment to
provide the Canadian forces the equipment it needs to do its job:
new search and rescue helicopters; new armoured personnel
carriers; new submarines; upgrades to our CF-18 fighter aircraft;
and Aurora maritime patrol aircraft. That is an impressive list
by any measure. It does not stop there. Acquiring new maritime
helicopters to replace the venerable Sea Kings is also a key part
of the capital procurement program laid out in the defence white
paper.
Again the government has delivered on its promise by announcing
last August that it had given the Department of National Defence
approval to proceed with acquiring a suitable replacement for the
Sea King. Our maritime forces must be capable of dealing with a
wide variety of potential threats.
They must be capable of controlling events above, on and below
the surface of the sea.
1545
Shipborne helicopters are a key component of that capability.
Such aircraft are indispensable to any navy and significantly
increase the surveillance, defence and attack capabilities of our
frigates and destroyers.
However, maritime helicopters play a wide range of roles,
including search and rescue. This is an important capability for
a country that has the longest coastline and the second largest
land mass in the world, not to mention extreme weather
conditions. Operating from our ships, they provide us with a
unique capability for offshore operations. Many sailors in
distress in the frigid waters of the north Atlantic owe their
lives to these helicopters and the Canadian forces crews who fly
them.
Over the last few years our maritime helicopters have
participated in disaster relief missions during the Manitoba
floods of 1997, after the crash of Swissair flight 111 in
September 1998 and in humanitarian relief operations in Somalia
and elsewhere around the world.
These aircraft routinely conduct fisheries patrols and have
assisted the RCMP in drug interdiction operations. They have
supported operations preventing the landing of illegal immigrants
by sea. They have also participated in peace support operations,
notably in the Adriatic Sea between 1993 and 1996, in Haiti in
1993 and 1994, in the Persian Gulf since 1991 and in East Timor
in 1999. They constitute an important part of our contribution
to the defence of North America as part of our naval task groups.
Maritime helicopters are also part of our contribution to NATO's
Standing Naval Force Atlantic.
For more than 35 years the Sea King helicopters have performed
those duties admirably. There is no doubt that a new helicopter
is needed in order to enable the Canadian forces to continue
making a vital contribution both here in Canada and around the
world.
The government has recognized that need and is moving forward
with the acquisition of a replacement, but not at any price.
Taxpayer money will be used wisely and the government will not
spend any more than it needs to.
The government is committed to providing the Canadian forces
with a maritime helicopter that will meet its present and future
needs at the best possible price and over the full life cycle of
the aircraft. However, let me be clear. We will not compromise
the capability requirements for this replacement aircraft. These
requirements are clearly laid out and described in the statement
of operational requirements that was released last August by the
Minister of National Defence.
The document was put together by the Department of National
Defence. DND conducted an extensive review of its needs using
contemporary scenarios, and identified operational requirements
backed by rigorous statistical analysis. The statement of
operational requirements is consistent with current defence
policy and also reflects the changes brought about by the end of
the cold war.
We do not need the kind of helicopter we needed 15 years ago or
even in 1993 when we cancelled the EH-101 project. The cold war
is over. We are shifting away from open ocean anti-submarine
warfare to more regional, coastal or littoral operations.
We now need an aircraft that is available in sufficient numbers
and has the appropriate payload, endurance and mission systems to
do the job required by tomorrow's security environment. We need
a helicopter that has balanced, multipurpose capabilities and
will meet the needs of the Canadian forces.
With this strong and coherent statement of operational
requirements, the government will be able to pursue a procurement
strategy adapted to the times. Canadian taxpayers will also
benefit from the strategy.
Even when counting the $478 million in cancellation fees, the
cost of the new SAR helicopters and the investments made to
ensure the continued airworthiness of the Labrador and Sea King
helicopters, we expect to save Canadians $1.5 billion when
compared with the cancelled EH-101.
We will save money because we will acquire off the shelf
technologies, not developmental ones. We will save money because
we will have a more competitive marketplace and the operational
requirements now reflect the changes in the strategic
environment. We will also save money because we will take into
account both the purchase price for the helicopter and the cost
of maintaining it through its life cycle.
Until we get delivery of the new maritime helicopters the
Canadian forces will continue to rely on the Sea Kings to perform
its missions.
1550
Some members of the House have raised concerns over the safety
of the aircraft. It is true they are not getting any younger. We
all know that, but let me be clear. The government will not ask
the men and women of the Canadian forces to fly unsafe aircraft.
The minister has repeated that on a number of occasions.
Significant investments have been made to make sure the Sea
Kings continue to operate safely and perform their various tasks
until the replacement helicopters are brought into service. For
example, we are spending some $50 million on engine and gearbox
upgrades. To improve the operational capabilities of the
helicopters, the air force is proceeding with upgrades such as
cargo carrying floorboards, electronic self-defence equipment and
an improved rescue hoist.
In conclusion, I again underline the government's commitment to
the Canadian forces. We saw that in today's announcement of the
supplementary estimates. Providing them with the equipment they
need at the best possible price is at the core of the acquisition
process. It will benefit both Canada and the men and women of
the Canadian forces. It is worthy of the support of every member
of the House.
Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Mr. Speaker, I
listened to the hon. member's speech. There is not really a
polite way to comment on it, so I will be very careful how I do
so.
Once in the mid-eighties I was up north flying in a twin otter.
It had been a scout plane in Vietnam and was full of bullet holes
that had been patched up. I suggest that airplane would be more
dependable than half the airplanes and all the choppers that the
Canadian army, the Canadian navy, and our search and rescue
people fly now. It is absolutely scandalous that the hon. member
and the government would try to defend the position they have
taken on military helicopter procurement and search and rescue
vehicles.
I have said before in the House and will say it again that
obviously there is no one on that side of the House who has ever
waited for a helicopter in a dangerous life and death situation
or who is related to anyone who has waited for a helicopter in a
life and death situation. If they had and if they had even one
bit of credibility or conscience, we would have a much better
fleet of helicopters to pick up people offshore, to take people
off oil rigs when necessary, and to pick up fishermen when they
are standing on the roof of a sinking boat and there is not
another boat in sight. We would not be debating the issue. We
would not be talking about what helicopters will be procured. We
would already have them.
I want to correct the mathematics. These are not the
opposition's numbers. These are the government's numbers: EH-101
cancellation fees, $500 million; Sea King maintenance and upgrade
to the year 2008, $600 million; Canada search and rescue program,
procurement of 15 helicopters, $790 million; maritime helicopter
project, 28 helicopters, $2.9 billion; MHP long term service
support for 25 years, $1.7 billion.
The total cost of the Liberal's programs, without inflation, is
$8.2 billion. The total cost of procurement of the EH-101s, if
they had been bought to begin with, was $5.8 billion. Those are
the government's numbers. I would like to hear the member's
comments.
Mr. David Pratt: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is long on
rhetoric and very short on facts. I have not seen the hon.
member anywhere close to the defence committee over the last
number of years. I do not know where he has been, but he has
obviously not had the opportunity to take in some of the
discussions at the committee.
Nevertheless, he attempts in the course of his comments to
malign all the equipment the Canadian forces uses. I can tell
the hon. member that I have been up in Canadian forces
helicopters. I have flown in helicopters over Kosovo.
The Griffon helicopter was one of the finest helicopters
operating in Kosovo until it was moved out the region and we
consolidated our forces in Bosnia. The British and the Americans
were relying on Canadian helicopters for surveillance because
their own helicopters were giving them trouble. I have flown in
Canadian helicopters in Canada as well.
1555
We all know the Sea King is an old helicopter that needs
replacing, and that is precisely what the government has done.
However had we adopted the program the Conservative Party wanted
us to get involved in, the EH-101, we would have had a cold war
helicopter for a post cold war environment. It would not have
met the operational requirements the Canadian forces have today.
Canada specialized in anti-submarine warfare during the cold
war. It did that job extremely well. Canada was noted as one of
the best, if not the best, in the world in terms of
anti-submarine warfare, but that is not where the game is now. We
have to adjust the process, the procedures and the strategy to
meet the strategic environment we are faced with now. That is
precisely what the government has done with this acquisition.
I do not have time to deal with the hon. member's numbers, but
the numbers were certainly very bad. That is why the government
cancelled the program.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Public
Works and Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as the
Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works and
Government Services, I have been following the maritime
helicopter project very closely for some time.
The minister and I have had several discussions about the
department's central role in replacing Canada's Sea Kings, which
have served the Canadian forces extremely well but are now
nearing the end of their service lives. I welcome the
opportunity to debate the merits of the government's decision to
purchase 28 new maritime helicopters and, more specifically, its
strategy for doing so.
As hon. members may know, this is the single largest federal
procurement initiated by the Liberal government since it was
elected in 1993. It is an important component of a larger long
term strategy to equip the Canadian forces with modern, state of
the art equipment for the 21st century.
Given the large monetary value and sensitive nature of the
procurement, I can assure hon. members that the project has been
thoroughly scrutinized by the Department of National Defence and
Public Works and Government Services Canada. This is the right
decision and the right approach for both the military and for
Canadian taxpayers.
I commend the Minister of Public Works and Government Services
for his commitment to ensuring that the process is not only fair,
open, transparent and competitive, but that it is also innovative
and progressive.
I also commend the Minister of Defence and his officials for
developing a statement of operational requirements for the
maritime helicopter that will meet the modern needs of our
Canadian forces. The world has changed over the past decade and
so have our defence requirements.
Both our ministers are determined to get the project right.
Their efforts deserve the support of hon. members on all sides of
the House. The procurement strategy developed by the Minister of
Public Works and Government Services, combined with a more
realistic understanding of Canada's needs, will save the Canadian
taxpayers $1.5 billion compared to the previous government's
helicopter project.
As the Minister of Public Works and Government Services has
already pointed out, that money can and will be invested in other
government priorities that were endorsed by Canadians in last
fall's election.
One of the key factors that will ensure the success of the
project is the government's commitment to initiate real,
meaningful dialogue with the aerospace industry. From the moment
the maritime helicopter project letter of interest was released
last August, the doors for communication have been opened and a
two way dialogue between the industry and government officials
has been positive and constructive.
It goes without saying that there is a high level of interest in
the project both in Canada and abroad. Why would there not be?
Contracts will be awarded for equipment worth more than $2
billion over the next few years. On top of that, the winning
bidders will be contracted to provide long term in service
support of equipment they sell to the Crown.
Even in the defence industry, projects like this do not come
along every day. The maritime helicopter project is expected to
generate spirited and intense competition among some of the
biggest defence contractors in the world.
The dialogue initiated with the industry last August has already
generated feedback that will help defence and procurement
officials fine tune the requirements and specifications according
to the procurement strategy.
1600
It has also allowed us to identify the firms that have both an
interest and a capacity to be prime contractor for one or both of
the helicopter and integrated mission system contracts.
Potential contractors have been fully informed about the
different elements of the procurement strategy and the
obligations they will need to fulfil as we move forward.
Industry is also aware that two requests for proposal will be
issued and two contracts will be awarded, one for the helicopters
and one for the integrated mission system.
As the minister already noted, the issuance of the two
competitive RFPs will allow us to procure both a helicopter and
an integrated mission system that meet our needs at the lowest
price. It will also result in opportunities for broader industry
participation in the overall project.
As I stated a moment ago, one of our guiding principles for this
procurement is the case for all government contracting, that is,
to be open and fair with all bidders.
The cost of developing bids of this nature can run into millions
of dollars, so we must take reasonable steps to avoid receiving
bids that will be disqualified because of technical
non-compliance. That is why the strategy for this project
includes a prequalification process that has never been used
before in Canada on a project of this size.
Basically what we are saying is that the potential bidders will
have to demonstrate to procurement and defence officials that
their proposed equipment complies with the government's
operational requirements before they submit a formal bid. This
will not eliminate but will certainly minimize the risk of
non-compliance.
Two separate prequalification processes will also be conducted,
one for the technical compliance of the basic helicopter and the
other for selective components of the maritime helicopter
integrated mission system. Potential bidders who have not
prequalified at least 30 days in advance of the bid close will
be declared non-compliant and their formal bids will not be
considered.
I have to emphasize that prequalification will largely be based
on the hardware side of each contract only. The bid could still
be declared non-compliant if the company fails to meet the other
requirements in the request for proposal. So even with the
prequalification process, bidders will still have to meet tough
criteria in other elements of the RFP.
Another unique element of this procurement strategy is that it
will ensure a long term value to the crown in its decision to
include inservice support as a component of each contract. Like
any piece of mechanical or electronic equipment, both the
aircraft and the mission systems will require comprehensive
ongoing maintenance and support once they are in operation.
In service support covers a broad range of activities that will
ensure safe use of helicopters over their operating life,
including basic aircraft and systems maintenance, spare parts
acquisition, inventory management, software support and
simulation and training.
The maritime helicopters will require in service support for a
period of some 20 years or longer. Procurement and defence
officials believe that including an in service support component
in each competitive RFP will provide further assurance that they
will obtain a high quality product. There is significant merit
in the approach. After all, no supplier is likely to deliver
substandard equipment if the same contractor has to assume the
responsibility for its long term service. Potential contractors
will be looking at a 20 year commitment to their equipment, so
there is little chance that anyone will try to cut corners that
may save them money today but dramatically increase costs down
the road.
The dialogue with the industry that I mentioned earlier did not
begin and end with the release of the letter of interest. It is
in fact an ongoing process carrying through the prequalification
stage of the procurement and continuing on to the bid close date.
There will be a good deal of direct contact with potential
bidders, but the primary vehicle for this dialogue and sharing of
information will be the maritime helicopter project website,
which was established a number of months ago by the project
management office. For hon. members' information, the site can
be accessed through the public works website.
I am pleased that our government has made a commitment to become
the world's the most electronically connected to its citizens and
is using its communications medium to keep potential bidders and
other interested parties informed about this project.
Over the coming weeks and months we will be using the website to
progressively release draft elements of both RFPs, beginning with
documents related to entry level helicopter. This will give
bidders a chance to review and comment on various aspects of the
project early on when there is still time to make changes that
may be beneficial to the crown as well as to the bidders.
1605
I want to assure all hon. members that strict criteria will be
used to evaluate each proposal that is ultimately received by the
government. The bidder who submits the lowest price that is
technically compliant and has acceptable terms and conditions,
industrial and regional benefits and risk assessment will be
awarded the helicopter contract. Shortly thereafter, we will
release the RFP for the second element, the integrated mission
system.
In closing, let me say that I have every confidence that the
procurement strategy now being implemented will give the men and
women of the Canadian forces the maritime helicopter they need
for today's operational environment, and I am certain that all
members will agree that the government's approach is supportive
of our military, fair to industry and responsible to taxpayers.
Mr. Rob Anders (Calgary West, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I have a question for the hon. member. The speaker
before him indicated that the Sea King had a role as an
anti-submarine warfare device. I happen to think that hunting
for subs is an important activity, especially considering that we
barely have any other presence in the Arctic.
I know that the Minister of National Defence does not seem to
agree with that position. The minister, by the way, has referred
to the use of the Sea King as an anti-submarine warfare device as
something that is a relic of the cold war.
The question I am posing is this: who has it right? Is it the
minister, who says that the Sea King and its replacement are not
to be used as an anti-sub device, that this is merely a relic of
the cold war and does not have any more relevance, or is it the
previous speaker who indicates that indeed this is an important
purpose and that Canada should be conducting anti-submarine
activities? Is it the minister who is right or is it the
previous speaker who is right? Which Liberal has it right?
Mr. Paul Szabo: Mr. Speaker, the motion before the House
has to do with a procurement strategy for the new helicopters.
There are two contracts, one for the basic helicopter and the
second for the integrated mission system.
The Department of Public Works and Government Services provides
procurement services for all departments of the government. The
Department of National Defence has provided public works and
government services with the specifications for this particular
project. Public works and government services is now outlining
its procurement strategy, as it did last August. We are now in
the process of having a dialogue with the aerospace industry.
The procurement strategy and the process that we are going
through is, in our view, the best way to ensure a good,
successful project of acquiring these helicopters, which is in
the best interests of the military, the government, DND and the
taxpayers. Those are the issues before the House and that is
exactly what we are doing.
Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Mr. Speaker, I would
like to ask the parliamentary secretary to the minister of public
works to perhaps enlighten us a bit more on the procurement
strategy. All along we have been told by the government that the
procurement strategy would be based on the cheapest cost, whereas
the treasury board guidelines for procurement under article 9.1.1
are as follows:
As stated in the policy, the objective of government procurement
contracting is to acquire goods and services and to carry out
construction in a manner that enhances access, competition and
fairness and results in the best value or, if appropriate, the
optimal balance of overall benefits to the Crown and the Canadian
people. Inherent in procuring best value is the consideration of
all relevant costs over the useful life of the acquisition, not
solely the initial or basic contractual cost.
As I already said to the previous Liberal member who spoke,
there is a difference of $3.2 billion from the Liberals' own 1994
numbers. Their numbers state it will cost $3.2 billion to
procure new helicopters, whereas if they had kept the original
EH-101 plan it would have cost $5.3 billion or $5.1 billion.
I would like to hear the member's comments on procurement, on
the fact that the government changed the rules for this contract,
on the fact that it is not listening to the military advice its
own defence department is giving, and on the fact that it has
stepped out so that the Prime Minister could take his pen and
write “no helicopters” across the paper. It has adapted, bent
itself backwards and swallowed itself whole in order to do that.
1610
Mr. Paul Szabo: Mr. Speaker, the member's first question
was in regard to the process. The process of course, from the
requirements of the Department of National Defence, was a
decision of the government. Treasury board is part of that
government, so it is in compliance with treasury board
guidelines.
Let me just briefly lay this out. In August a letter of
interest went out to the aerospace industry to promote a
dialogue. It outlined the intended procurement strategy for all
parties. The rationale for our procurement strategy is quite
simple. We believe that a separate competitive process will
ensure that the crown obtains both the required helicopter and
the integrated mission system as well as the long term in service
support needed, at the lowest possible price. It will also allow
for greater industry participation in the competition.
The member's preamble simply talked about lowest cost. That is
not true. The procurement strategy is much broader than cost. It
has to be compliant with the broad specifications as outlined in
the letter of interest and as fully detailed on the government
website.
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with my colleague from
Calgary West.
This debate has been a very interesting one. It is a very
worthwhile topic that has been brought forward by the
Conservative Party today. It has just been unbelievable to
listen to the arguments put forward by the Liberal government in
defence of an indefensible position. That is what it has tried
to do today. Liberal members have spent their time defending
their action or lack thereof on the maritime helicopter
replacement program in such a way that their arguments do not
stand up.
The argument just submitted by our colleague, the Liberal member
from Nepean was unbelievable. He made the unbelievable statement
that had the government gone ahead with the plan developed by the
Conservatives in the 1990s, which the Prime Minister tore up in
1993, we would have had a helicopter with cold war capabilities
and that would have been a bad thing.
First of all that is wrong. Second, if we follow his logic, it
was a better thing for the government to have spent $10 billion
over the same period of time and not get the helicopters that are
needed in a shorter period of time, rather than spend the
approximately $5 billion that would have seen the helicopters
delivered under the procurement plan of the Conservative Party
back in the 1990s. They would have been delivered in 1993. That
is completely illogical. It does not make sense when we look at
the pieces of this indefensible position being offered by the
Liberals today in the House.
The second assertion being made by most Liberal members is that
they are in some way saving the taxpayers $1.5 billion by waiting
for who knows how many years before we actually get the
replacements for the Sea Kings, which are older than I am. They
are saying unbelievable things.
The Liberals should be embarrassed and disappointed by this,
because in fact what they are saying is that they are going to be
procuring 28 helicopters rather than the original 35 under the
plan offered by the Conservatives in the early nineties. There
will be seven less helicopters delivered so one would think that
there should be some cost savings. It is a little bit like the
following argument: the government says that instead of buying
35 cars it will buy 28, but it will be saving $1.5 billion or
whatever the cost of those cars would be. If we look at the
logic of that argument, here is where it leads.
1615
The Liberals are saying that they can spend more now over the
same period of time, get less and we are going to be saving money
by doing that. That just does not make sense. Canadians know
that. Our military personnel know that. They know that politics
has been played in this situation for many years.
We know about the procurement plan that has been in the works to
replace the aging Sea Kings for decades now. It is now the year
2001. We would have had military capability and the equipment in
place in the mid-1990s had the Prime Minister not simply played
politics and torn up the contract that would have seen the
EH-101s delivered into service when they were needed.
Instead, what has happened is we have what I am going to call a
boondoggle. It is a word that applies here, as it has in many
other areas of spending by the government. We had this
boondoggle occur. Lives have been lost because of old equipment
that has put our military personnel at risk. Sea Kings take
approximately 40 hours of service for every hour in the air.
It was mentioned by colleagues in the House today that the
situation has become rather embarrassing. We commend our
personnel for maintaining the equipment and putting their lives
on the line when they use this equipment that should have been
replaced long ago.
For a government to stand in this place and defend the position
in this situation is simply indefensible. I think Canadians are
forgiving when people say they made a mistake, that they were
wrong and that they will make good on it. That is exactly what
the Liberals should be doing in this House today. If they did
they would be able to come clean with Canadians on the failed
delivery of equipment, on the time it has taken to replace the
equipment and on their defence of it. Instead of coming clean,
they have offered lame excuses which do not sit well with those
who are in need of the service.
My colleagues from the Conservative Party have mentioned the
situations on the Atlantic coast in terms of rescues. My
colleague from South Shore talked about the government obviously
not having been in the situation of needing the service or
knowing anybody who needed the service. That was a very good
point. The lack of care and the lack of commitment to put this
in place now because there is a need for it is simply
indefensible.
It is a shame that the motion is not votable today. I think we
would find opposition parties united on it. The motion is a
common sense one that has attempted to correct a serious error
made by the Prime Minister back in 1993. What is very upsetting
and disappointing to members of the House from all parties on
this side, and I am sure members on the government side as well,
is the lack of action as well as the lack of acknowledgement that
politics was played with this file and that those politics have
resulted in lost lives, our personnel being put at risk and many
other problems.
I want to touch on one other comment made in the House today
with regard to earthquake preparedness, which falls under the
realm of the Department of National Defence. During question
period and in some of the debate today we were asked about the
earthquake in the Vancouver area yesterday. There appeared to be
a lack of concern on the government's part about that issue. It
moved the base at CFB Chilliwack with the emergency preparedness
capabilities from the Vancouver region to Edmonton, which is 750
miles away.
We raised questions about this particular issue today with the
Minister of Justice from Edmonton. We asked the minister what we
would do when those services were no longer available to help
people in Vancouver should a large earthquake occur, and it will
sometime but we do not know when. The minister's response was
that we were fearmongering.
What a completely unacceptable and disappointing comment. How
are our forces going to bring heavy equipment to Vancouver if
there are no runways and if the major transportation corridors
are gone? It is an indefensible position.
1620
The government has failed in the delivery of the maritime
helicopter program and in so many other ways. Members of the
opposition will be united on this debate and many others to keep
the government accountable. It is very clear to all Canadians
that rather than do the right thing, admit it was wrong and fix
the problem immediately, it is going to continue to stonewall and
drag on something that needs to be fixed and could have been
fixed in 1993. That is truly disappointing.
Mr. Rodger Cuzner (Bras d'Or—Cape Breton, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, the member suggested that unanimous consent would be
garnered by the entire opposition party. During the his speech
he did not allude to any of the barriers that pertain to this
matter.
The motion states:
That this House call upon the government to eliminate the
barriers in the Letter of Interest to the aerospace industry,
which impede a fair and open Maritime Helicopter Project, and
that maritime procurement be conducted on a “best value to the
Canadian taxpayers” basis, in accordance with Treasury Board
guidelines.
Could the member expand on what the barriers are as they apply
in this situation?
Mr. Grant McNally: Mr. Speaker, the immediate barrier is
the Liberal Government of Canada. It is obvious that that is the
huge barrier. We have solid agreement from all members that the
barrier is the Prime Minister. He said no in 1993. We could
have had helicopters in service now, here, today. Instead, eight
years later there are still no helicopters in sight. That is the
barrier.
Another particular barrier is the statement of operational
requirements and the whole process that has been put in place.
The Liberals have changed the process thereby eliminating
particular members of the industry from putting forward proposals
to be included in the procurement strategy. That has been done
deliberately to save political face because the government does
not want to end up ordering the same helicopters or variants of
them that it cancelled in 1993. That is the barrier to this
going forward.
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, the
chair and vice chair of SCONDVA stated today that they are on the
record as supporting the cheapest helicopter for naval
operations. I am sure our troops in the field feel wonderful
about getting the cheapest but not the best.
Does the hon. member feel that it is right for the government to
override treasury board's recommendations and policies when it
comes to replacing the Sea Kings? With its letter of interest,
the government has overriden treasury board sections 9.1.1 and
9.1.2. In no way should the government ever do that. That is
there for everyone to abide by.
Mr. Grant McNally: Mr. Speaker, I agree with my colleague
for Saint John and I congratulate her for bringing this motion
forward today.
What the government is doing is not right. It is indefensible.
It is a position put forward here today by the Liberal Government
of Canada and it is one that is clearly wrong. It must bear the
responsibility for cancelling the program in 1993 that would have
seen helicopters in place to save lives across Canada.
An hon. member: It would have saved $1.5 billion.
Mr. Grant McNally: The member says it would have saved
$1.5 billion but he does not say that it is seven less
helicopters.
He wants to say one thing but not the other. He does not want
the whole story to be told. I do not blame him. The decision is
made is such an embarrassment for his government. It should hold
full responsibility for what it has done. Canadians are
disappointed with the government and the course of action it has
taken by cancelling the helicopters and rewriting the letter to
exclude some so that it is not embarrassed further in this whole
fiasco and boondoggle.
1625
Mr. Rob Anders (Calgary West, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I will address the folks back home. I want to tell
everybody who is watching at home or in the offices around the
Hill today what is going on.
The Liberals are swallowing hard on a subject on which they ran
a campaign in 1993. They told Canadians they wanted to scrap a
Conservative initiative to purchase EH-101 helicopters which were
clearly the best helicopters that could have been purchased. The
Prime Minister went about beating his chest during the election
campaign and said that cancelling this would save money. At the
end of the day, what will happen is that the Liberals will spend
a lot more money in aggregate and we will get less helicopters in
return. That is what is called Liberal fiscal responsibility;
pay more for less.
In the meantime, this is not just a tongue in cheek kind of cute
argument. People have died as a result of that flawed decision.
People lost their lives operating those helicopters that should
not have been in the air because of the Prime Minister and his
government's decision. This is not just a question of money.
This is a question of sacrificing the lives of our forces. The
Liberals should be really ashamed of that.
We are looking at about $600 million in cancellation fees that
the Liberals brought upon themselves by cancelling the contract.
It is a lot of money but it gets worse than that. It is also the
fact that they paid all that money over the last decade to keep
these flying heaps in the air. When we consider that some of
them were bought in 1964, that is a long time.
As a matter of fact, it was 12 years before I was born. I will
even venture to say that the Prime Minister, who went about
beating his chest in 1993 about the ending of this contract, was
probably not even elected when these helicopters were bought. It
is an absolute shame to consider that our men and women in the
forces have been flying things that are absolutely in heaps by
everybody else's standard.
I want to quote from some things here. This is absolutely
choice. This just goes to show to what lengths the Prime
Minister and some of those around him are willing to go in order
to try to quash this project so that they do not have to wipe the
egg off their faces because they did not order the EH-101. The
EH-101 won the contract fair and square. What did the government
do to hide that, to obfuscate it, to delay it?
This is from an article from the London Free Press written
by Greg Weston. The date of this is last February 22.
For those folks back home who want to check it, they can look it
up on the Internet. He said:
By mid-1997, sources say it had become apparent the bidding was
again going to be won by the Cormorant.
By the way, the Cormorant is the parent of the EH-101. It is
the same brand of helicopter. It goes on:
Now, buying Cormorant helicopters from the same group that got
$600 million of public money for Chrétien's cancelling of the
original contract of Cormorants—
The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I remind
colleagues that we cannot do indirectly what we might not be able
to do directly. Although the member might be quoting, he will
have to slightly adapt his text to refer to, in this case, the
Right Hon. Prime Minister or other ministers that might otherwise
be named or referred to in this same article.
1630
Mr. Rob Anders: Mr. Speaker, the guilty do not like
having their names read out loud. What it boils down to is that
the Cormorants were the proper choice. It did not cost the Prime
Minister. Who are we kidding? He is using taxpayer dollars in
Shawinigan. It actually cost Canadian taxpayers $600 million.
Then he decided he needed a political fixer.
Since I cannot name names, he brought in the Deputy Prime
Minister as his trusty political fixer. The Prime Minister
instructed the Deputy Prime Minister that the Cormorant through
another bidding process was not to win. In other words, there
would be a contest but the Cormorant or a version of the EH-101
could not be allowed to win. That was the rule. It goes on:
In December 1997, the (Prime Minister) headed south for his usual
month of golf, reassured by the military that the Cormorant bid
was history. But a funny thing happened on the way to the
contracting office. The (Deputy Prime Minister) had to phone the
(Prime Minister) in Florida to tell him the Cormorant had won.
They rejigged the process all over again and the Cormorant won
fair and square. The Prime Minister's response to the news was
described as largely unprintable. Expletives were uttered by the
Prime Minister because he hated the fact that the Cormorant won
the process by a fair bid.
It talks about a memo from a fellow officer to Air Force
Commander L.C. Campbell, whom I have quoted before, which began:
Assuming there will be a competition to select the new maritime
helicopter, it is quite possible that the Cormorant might win it.
It went on to ask:
It then referred to the military and went on to say:
If the Cormorant were to win a military helicopter competition on
its merits, wouldn't we again be in the same position of being
accused of tricking the government?
Should the military not be the one to decide what helicopter
would best service its function? Yet we have the Prime Minister,
the Deputy Prime Minister and the cabinet interfering with the
decision and competition process by saying the Cormorant is not
allowed to win because they promised they would gut the program
in 1993 when they were running during the election campaign.
It is very serious that they would waste billions of dollars of
taxpayer money, put lives on the line and contribute to the death
of our armed forces just because they did not want to get egg on
their faces. Shame on the government. Shame on the Prime
Minister and shame on the Deputy Prime Minister.
I would like to talk a bit about what these helicopters will be
used for because even the minister seems to have some fuzzy logic
about it. Basically they would be used for search and rescue.
When I visited the base in Esquimalt I was told by military
personnel that they could not do the job because of the
situation. They had to bring in Americans in the Straits of Juan
de Fuca. The Canadian forces could not perform this job but the
Liberals are continuing to delay.
Search and rescue is one of the functions. Canadians are not
doing a lot of it or as much as they should, especially when we
consider that for every hour in the air there are 40 hours of
maintenance on any helicopter in the air. That is the search and
rescue story.
Let us think about the anti-submarine warfare activities. By
having helicopters on the back of naval warships it multiplies by
25 times the ability of the ship to conduct anti-submarine
warfare. As the ship is sailing along the helicopter flies off
the back of the ship, goes out to the limits of its
circumference, drops a boom into the water and listens for subs
underneath. It drastically improves the ability of sub hunting.
1635
Even though we only spend a scant few hours a year up in the
Arctic with icebreakers, if we are lucky, our minister happens to
think that anti-sub warfare is “a relic of the cold war”. He
does not believe we should be enforcing sovereignty. The
minister does not think that is important.
The job of our military, our navy, and these helicopters is to
police our boundaries and to find out whether other nations are
conducting submarine operations, whether they be under the ice or
off either of our coasts. If our minister with his Liberal,
fuzzy-headed, soft, mushy logic does not think we should be
finding out whose subs are in our waters, we have a serious
problem. That is pretty serious.
I could go on and on but I realize that my time has come to an
end. I know that members on the other side will prattle on about
procedures for bureaucratic buying.
Mr. Paul Szabo (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of
Public Works and Government Services, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the
member dealt very briefly with the motion before the House which
has to do with the process. We are talking about the alleged
barriers within the letter of interest.
The process and the procurement strategy has been approved by
the government, which includes the Treasury Board, and it is in
compliance with all procurement criteria. Most of the member's
speech had to do with the allegation that somehow there was a
bias against EH Industries.
In 1993 there was a cancellation of the EH-101. The government
made that commitment during the election and followed through for
the reasons outlined. The member should also know that we put
out for tender replacement of search and rescue helicopters. EH
won that contract in a fair, competitive and open process. With
regard to the current contract EH Industries did make an appeal
to the Canadian International Trade Tribunal, and the member
should know that the CITT rejected that appeal.
Does the member disagree with the Canadian International Trade
Tribunal with regard to the ongoing process? If he does, he
should explain to the House why he disagrees with the CITT.
Mr. Rob Anders: Mr. Speaker, I am glad I have been given
the opportunity to tell Canadians that Liberals across the way
and the member who just asked the question have written it so
that they can rule out Cormorant and Sikorsky from competing in
the bids.
How will it be a fair bidding process when the government has
specifically structured it so that Sikorsky and Cormorant cannot
compete? Cormorant won the process fair and square before.
Sikorsky is one of the biggest manufacturers in the world of
helicopters. They are both ruled out of the bidding process
because the PM does not think that meshes with what looks good on
his face. That is a shame.
I will tell members a little private story in response to that
question. I flew in the Eurocopter when it was brought to
Ottawa. My staff and I had an interest in this issue even before
I was serving on the Standing Committee for National Defence and
Veterans Affairs. I actually flew around in that helicopter.
I asked the officials from Eurocopter about some of the details
of the aircraft. They crassly told me, because I do not think
they figured out that I was an MP, that it would come down to
where the helicopter was assembled. Because of the way the Prime
Minister wanted to guide the process for getting jobs, they said
the government would not go with the other helicopter. Because of
where it would be assembled and because of the jobs that would be
in and around the Prime Minister's neck of the woods, the
Eurocopter would win. It was driven by the most partisan
political considerations of all.
1640
Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): Mr. Speaker, I was
just given a document which states that any attempt to close the
wide variance in air vehicle performance would require either a
major redesign of the proposed Cougar or a significant change in
the operational role of the National Shipping Agency, which would
then require reassessment of the Canadian navy's concept of
operations. The redesign is estimated to cost in excess of $500
million.
Is my colleague from the Reform Party aware the Cougar that will
be given to the navy does not even meet naval requirements? Now
it is another $500 million to redesign the whole process.
Mr. Rob Anders: Mr. Speaker, right from the beginning this
issue has been a massive waste of taxpayer money. I agree with
the hon. member. I could look at some of the statistics I wish
could have been included in the main part of my speech.
There are cancellation penalty costs of $478.6 million. Then
the cost of actually upgrading the Sea Kings. Mechanics can only
do so much but they have to go ahead and repair them. It is $50
million to upgrade them. Then there are maintenance costs. As I
said, for every hour in the air it is 40 hours of maintenance.
That is another $750 million. Then there is the cost of the
replacement at $2.9 billion for 28 helicopters.
This means that the government is spending close to $5 billion.
The original contract was for seven helicopters and would have
cost only $3.24 billion. It is an absolute waste of money.
Mrs. Carolyn Parrish (Mississauga Centre, Lib.): Mr.
Speaker, this has been a fascinating day for me. How many angels
can dance on the head of a needle? It is quite fascinating. I
will be splitting my time with the member for Scarborough East.
I welcome the opportunity to address the House on this important
opposition day motion. Let me begin by commending the hon.
member and her party for their interest in how the Canadian
forces are being equipped to do their job. Certainly this is of
concern to many Canadians. As the hon. member knows, the
government has been taking progressive steps for some time now to
ensure that Canada's military has the state of the art equipment
it needs.
I also acknowledge the hon. member's concern for the prudent use
of taxpayer dollars. One of my principal goals as an elected
official has always been to make sure that the government and the
governments with which I served before on a municipal level
deliver an appropriate level of service to all Canadians in an
efficient and cost effective manner. I think that is the role of
all politicians, is it not?
National defence is one of the most important services any
government can provide its citizens. Expenditures in this area
must undergo very careful scrutiny. I have no doubt that the
maritime helicopter project will withstand such scrutiny. I also
believe that the procurement strategy developed by the Minister
of Public Works and Government Services is in the best interest
of Canadians and our defence personnel.
From a strictly economic perspective, two factors set defence
and military procurement aside from most other types of
purchases. First, defence equipment is generally in service for
relatively long periods of time so a strategic long term outlook
is necessary.
As hon. members have no doubt been made aware throughout debate
on the motion, defence equipment tends to be extremely costly.
The maritime helicopter project is a case in point. The
replacements for Canada's aging Sea King helicopters are expected
to be in service for more than 20 years. They will be used in
harsh conditions and extremely dangerous situations. Safety and
durability are of utmost importance.
These helicopters and their associated integrated mission
systems will be expensive to purchase. In fact, it bears
repeating that even though we are saving taxpayers up to $1.5
billion compared to the former government's helicopter purchase
project, it is still a huge financial commitment. With a value
of close to $2.9 billion, the maritime helicopter project is the
single largest procurement currently being managed by the
Department of Public Works and Government Services.
That is why it is important to have a fair, open, transparent
and competitive tendering process to award these contracts. We
believe that separate competitive processes will ensure that the
crown obtains both the required helicopters and the integrated
mission system, as well as long term in service support that is
absolutely necessary at the lowest possible price.
I have the utmost confidence in the ability of the minister of
public works and his department to manage this procurement.
1645
When listening to debate coming from the opposite side of the
House one thinks that as soon as the Liberals win an election we
immediately dismiss all the departmental personnel and hire just
Liberals to do a terrible job for the Canadian public. In fact,
we have a huge department of people who have worked here for
years and years, much before that party was even a glimmer in Mr.
Manning's eye, and they have a vested interest.
The Deputy Speaker: I would remind members once again to
please refer to one another by either portfolios or riding names.
Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: Mr. Speaker, my apologies. I am
getting so enthusiastic about the topic that I got carried away.
I am especially pleased to see that the government plans to use
a number of innovative practices to help ensure a successful,
cost effective acquisition of the 28 maritime helicopters and the
integrated mission system.
I will focus my remarks today on two measures in particular, the
government's unprecedented commitment to industry dialogue and
interaction, and the unique prequalification process that is the
cornerstone of the procurement strategy for the maritime
helicopter project.
As the Minister of Public Works and Government Services has
informed the House, the defence contracting industry was made
aware of the government's general intentions and requirements in
relation to the maritime helicopter project through a letter of
interest released last August. The letter of interest was much
more than a statement of needs. It was also an invitation for
individual companies to comment on the government's plans and to
indicate their intention to participate in the competitive
bidding process.
As the minister has already noted, the government has received
input on its statement of operational requirements and
procurement strategy from several companies. These comments will
be given careful consideration as defence and procurement
officials continue to define this project in the months ahead.
The letter of interest has successfully initiated a dialogue with
the industry which will not only continue but will broaden in
scope and detail right up to the bid closing dates for each of
the contracts.
We firmly believe that industry interaction is critical for
large projects such as this. It protects the interests of
taxpayers while ensuring that potential prime contractors and
subcontractors are fully aware of the government's needs and
intentions and do not assume an undue financial burden or risk in
preparing their bids.
The government intends to make full use of the World Wide Web to
facilitate this industry interaction. A dedicated website has
already been established for the maritime helicopter project, as
has been mentioned already, and information has been posted for
the industry and other interested parties, including the Canadian
public. Again, this reflects the government's commitment to a
fair, open and transparent process.
As the project unfolds, the level of detail posted on the
website, and thus the site's value to potential contractors, will
grow. Draft specifications and other documents will be available
through the website for review and comment by industry, the
people who know what they are saying.
This interactive process could lead to changes in the technical
requirements or other elements of the project. It will also
increase the likelihood of technical compliance of candidate
helicopters and integrated mission systems.
The second innovative procurement practice I wish to speak about
today, the mandatory prequalification process, is in many ways an
extension of the government's commitment to industry interaction.
As hon. members have been informed, separate prequalification
processes will be conducted for both contracts in advance of the
formal submission of bids. This is the first time such a process
has been used in Canada for a project of this size.
As the minister has already noted, prequalification should
enable us to greatly minimize the problem of disqualification of
bids due to technical non-compliance. This saves a lot of
companies a lot of money. It stops them from getting into bids
that they just cannot complete.
Mitigating the risk of non-compliance is good for the government
because it ensures the maximum level of competition for the
contracts. It is also good for the industry which, as hon.
members can appreciate, invests an enormous amount of time and
money in developing bids.
I want to make it clear yet again that prequalification will
focus largely on the hardware aspects of each bid. Our goal is
to make sure that potential prime contractors can conform with
the technical requirements of the maritime helicopter project as
set out by the Department of National Defence before—and I
underline before—they submit a bid.
1650
If a contractor cannot conform to these requirements there is no
need to devote additional time and resources to developing or
evaluating other elements of the bid, thereby saving us money and
time.
To prequalify, potential prime contractors will be asked to
provide an appropriate level of detail about their equipment and
systems, which will be carefully reviewed by defence and public
works and government services officials. Prime contractors will
also have the opportunity to explain their proposed equipment and
solutions, to seek clarification of technical issues and to
address any concerns that might be raised on the government side.
Potential contractors that have not achieved prequalification
status at least 30 days in advance of the bid close will be
declared non-compliant and their bids will not be considered as
part of the formal tendering process, thereby saving both sides a
lot of time, money and aggravation.
Once the bids close, the normal process will be followed for
selecting a successful contractor for government tenders awarded
on the basis of lowest price. In addition to price and technical
compliance and industrial and regional benefits, contractual
terms and conditions will be part of that evaluation process.
For the basic helicopter, the price evaluation will include the
basic helicopter, related ship modifications and in service
support. For the integrated mission system, the evaluation will
include the integrated mission system and its in service support.
The government clearly believes that Canada is more likely to
meet both its technical and cost requirements for the maritime
helicopter project by talking with the industry. Such dialogue
will result in a better meeting of the minds, so to speak. It
will reduce the risk to government and to industry alike.
Like the debate that is taking place in the House today, it will
contribute to a successful procurement project that will respect
the interests of taxpayers and meet the needs of the Canadian
forces for many years to come.
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, I listened to the member's speech very carefully,
noting that there were comments in her speech that reflected the
comments of some of her colleagues in almost identical words. I
hate to think this, but it could not be a canned speech from the
minister of public works that she was delivering, could it?
I know she gave a lot of credit to the minister of public works
regarding the process he has set up. I am sure that she must be
aware from his presentation, and it was actually one of the
members of the media who brought this to my attention, that the
contract for the maritime helicopter project will not be signed
this year. It will be signed next year. What will that in
effect do? That will push off the whole project again and it
will be another five to six years before a delivery of even one
machine to our military takes place.
We can talk about the openness of the process and so on, which I
believe is a bunch of hogwash, but just think of this. Right now
we have a 40 year old aircraft out there that requires 40 hours
of service for every hour in flight, and we have this minister
and this government stating that it will be another year before
the contract is signed and another five years before one machine
is delivered. There is something seriously wrong with the
priorities on that side of the House, and I would like the member
to comment on it.
Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: Mr. Speaker, I do not think there
is anything wrong with ensuring the best quality available. The
machines are going to be used for 20 to 25 years. If the member
opposite wants us to rush about madly to put a less than perfect
machine in the air and put men at risk, then I do not endorse
that.
It is like anything else to the member opposite. It is like the
party opposite starting as the Reform Party. It was almost what
was wanted, but not quite. It had to take time to mature into
the Canadian Alliance. The process we are in right now is
maturing at a much faster rate and we are going to end up with a
much better product.
1655
Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Canadian
Alliance): Mr. Speaker, I am not as involved in this issue as
some of my colleagues, but I really cannot let the nonsense that
I just heard go by.
The member says the government does not want to rush out and do
this. The contract was cancelled in 1994. The last I looked,
that was seven years ago. The contract that was cancelled was
put in place because the military needed the equipment, so
clearly the military needed the equipment well before 1994,
knowing the less than lightning speed with which any government
moves.
Equipment that was needed before 1994 was ordered. The
government decided to toast the contract for political reasons in
1994. Here we are in 2001, finally with some kind of decision to
buy. Now we find out that we will not have delivery of this
badly needed equipment until later down the road and the member
has the gall to say the government does not want to rush
anything. How on earth can she stand and spout such nonsense and
expect Canadians to buy that kind of line?
Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: Mr. Speaker, I find it quite
fascinating that everything done on this side of the House is
subject to severe scrutiny and question, but that there is
absolutely no concern in the opposition members' minds about,
first of all, the contract we cancelled being absolutely the best
contract available to the Canadian public. Second, the fact that
all the helicopters are still flying and our defence system is
still working quite nicely means that it was probably in advance
of when it was needed. The fact is that we are being careful,
meticulous and doing the best job possible.
I might also point out to the member opposite that the public,
to use her word, toasted the government that was going to bring
the contract into place precipitously and that party was reduced
to a paltry sum of people over there who are spending an entire
day wasting the taxpayers' time on a subject that is well
underway.
Mr. John McKay (Scarborough East, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, my
constituency has no obvious interest in this issue. We do not
have a military base. We do not have defence contracts. We do
not have any airports or harbours. Quite easily I can say with
some confidence that my constituency has no particular
involvement in this particular issue. Therefore, while I may
comment on this without any obvious axe to grind, it does not
mean that my constituents are uninterested. I am perfectly happy
at this point to defer my remarks until the House leader speaks
on his issue.
Hon. Don Boudria: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of
order. I would like to try again to seek unanimous consent of
the House to revert, only momentarily, to introduction of
government bills, and only for the purpose of introducing a bill
on behalf of the Minister of Transport, namely, an act respecting
shipping and navigation and to amend the Shipping Conferences
Exemption Act, 1987 and other acts.
We would rather do it today than tomorrow morning, the reason
being that members who are going home tonight can leave and take
a copy of the bill with them. Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, you could
seek consent of the House and I could introduce the bill.
The Deputy Speaker: Is that agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
[English]
CANADA SHIPPING ACT, 2001
Hon. Don Boudria (for the Minister of Transport) moved
for leave to introduce Bill C-14, an act respecting shipping and
navigation and to amend the Shipping Conferences Exemption Act,
1987 and other acts.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and
printed)
GOVERNMENT ORDERS
1700
[English]
SUPPLY
ALLOTTED DAY—MARITIME HELICOPTER PROCUREMENT
The House resumed consideration of the motion and of the
amendment.
Mr. John McKay (Scarborough East, Lib.): Mr. Speaker,
while my constituency has no obvious axe to grind and no
particular involvement in this particular issue, it does not mean
that my constituents are therefore uninterested.
During the last election, I heard from my constituents on many
occasions about their concern over the state of the military.
They were concerned that the military was not being treated well
and that their equipment was out of date.
Therein lies the debate. Canadians want a military of which
they can be proud, but the costs are somewhere in the
area of problematic. For instance, the costs of the
modernization of the F-18 are astronomic. The costs of the
quality of life for members of the military are substantial. The
costs of the Aurora upgrades are enormous. The costs of this
helicopter project alone are projected to be $2.5 billion.
The part of the motion with which my constituents can agree is
that the procurement be conducted on the basis of the best value
to Canadian taxpayers.
The above issues that I have just cited, those four outstanding
issues, the Auroras, the F-18s, the helicopters and the quality
of life of the military, and there are more, are significant
issues for all of us, both in the military and outside the
military.
I assume that members opposite think that the best value for the
Canadian taxpayer is the guideline to be applied to all of the
above. I do not know what the total costs of all those files
might be, but I think it is safe to assume that we would use up
whatever surplus is in the budget this year. We would probably
also get into the contingency fees, if not the prudence factor,
and we might actually start dipping into tax cuts and the Canada
health and social transfer. The costs of these projects are
enormous and, in my analysis, one needs to bring balance and best
value to the taxpayers, whether it be in helicopters or any other
request by the military.
Having said that the costs are enormous, we cannot be paralyzed.
The military has in fact set out its priorities in its requests.
Apparently the opposition was upset when the letter of interest
proposed that there could be a possibility of splitting the
contracts between the airframe and other systems. This is
similar to what General Motors does when it splits its main
suppliers into those that can deliver various sections of an
automobile most quickly and efficiently and, indeed I say,
cheaply.
Some potential bidders apparently do not like the idea that
efficiency and costs are to be part of the bid. The opposition
apparently agrees that costs and efficiency should not be a
barrier to a bid. The opposition and other bidders apparently do
not like the qualification process to submit a bid. The
government has legitimate concerns that those submitting bids
should also be qualified to submit the bids. What a strange
idea.
When the military suggested a qualifying process be given time,
those companies that were already qualified were upset because of
the potential increased competition. It does seem rather
fundamental that this so-called barrier be addressed. After all,
what is the use of having a bid from someone not qualified to
submit a bid in the first place? Indeed, what could be generated
from soliciting more bids from people who in fact are not
qualified?
I am sure that when General Motors solicits bids it checks out
its bidders rather thoroughly before giving out a contract.
Surely it is fundamental that those who submit bids be qualified.
I hope that the opposition would not encourage bidders who are
not qualified.
The next phrase in the motion is that it be fair and open. I
have listened to members opposite argue for a fair and open
process. Who would be against fairness and openness? Yet when
members opposite are challenged on what is not fair and what is
not open, they lapse into some rope-a-dope response about
political interference.
However, they are not very specific. Their rope-a-dope response
would do credit to Muhammad Ali.
1705
Members opposite lapse into generalities when asked specifically
about what is not fair, what is not transparent and just where
this political interference might lay. Apparently the continuous
posting of this issue on the website is not open, is not
transparent and is subject to political interference.
The Department of National Defence has issued a letter of
interest regarding a $2.5 billion contract for the purchase of 28
helicopters. Some companies in the aerospace industry, namely
E.H. Industries and Sikorsky, questioned aspects of the bidding
process. E.H. Industries in fact took legal action against the
department before the Canadian International Trade Tribunal. The
claim made to the CITT was that the contract bidding process was
unnecessarily strict, thus eliminating competition. The CITT did
not accept the proposition.
I have trouble understanding the opposition's argument. Is it
arguing in favour of fewer competitors, which would therefore
advantage a smaller pool of bidders, or is it arguing for a large
pool of bidders, some of whom may not be qualified to bid?
I understand a disgruntled bidder who likes the process set up
in a particular way which maximizes his or her advantage, and
launches a lawsuit to protect his or her advantages. However,
what I cannot understand is an opposition supporting a bidder who
only likes things one way which would maximize the advantage of
that particular corporation, thank you very much.
It seems to me that the opposition is speaking against its own
motion, the essence of which is fairness, transparency and best
value for the Canadian taxpayer. To use the words of that famous
philosopher, Yogi Berra, this appears to be déja vu all over
again. The opposition is apparently against any initiative that
would open up the pool of qualified bidders.
It has been eight years since the Canadian electorate passed
judgment on the Mulroney government and yet here we are, three
elections later, the Tories are up from two seats to 12, and
apparently arguing against transparency and a bidding process
designed to solicit the greatest number of bidders. It is like
we are stuck in a time warp. Is this not the same crowd that
brought us the $42 billion deficit and forced the newly elected
Liberal government to take huge sums out of all programs,
including military programs, in order to get the nation's
finances in order? Why would the military, let alone other
Canadians, believe in a motion from a party that has caused so
much grief for the military?
Had we not had to climb our way out of a $42 billion deficit,
maybe, just maybe, the helicopter issue would be off the table
and we would put it behind us. From the $4 billion Tory
contract, we would be down to the $2.5 billion Liberal contract.
This is a disingenuous motion from a party that dug the Canadian
government and the Canadian people a huge hole. It now wants to
fly out of that hole with economic voodoo and prioritizing that
is inappropriate in the first place. It is a shame that this
motion is not votable.
Mr. Scott Brison (Kings—Hants, PC): Mr. Speaker, the
hon. member spoke of a $42 billion deficit in 1993. What he
failed to mention was that that deficit, as a percentage of GDP,
was actually reduced by half from what the Mulroney government
had inherited in 1984 from the previous Liberal government. In
fact it was reduced by half as a percentage of GDP.
He also forgot to mention that program spending, which was
growing every year by 15% under that previous Liberal government,
was reduced to zero under the Mulroney government. He also made
some other omissions.
1710
The Economist magazine's 1998 year preview for Canada
stated that the credit for the elimination of the deficit in
Canada belonged to the structural reforms made by the previous
government, that is, the Mulroney government, and it listed
specifically free trade and GST as being those policies that were
most instrumental in the elimination of the deficit.
I would like to ask him if he is aware of what his party's
position was on free trade and the GST in the 1988 and 1993
elections. I am curious as to where his party stood, prior to
being elected, on those two fundamental policies which his party
and government has embraced and utilized.
I would certainly hope that his party was not, as some people
have told me, vociferously opposed to those policies. Surely to
goodness his party would not have embraced those policies so
warmly in government that it opposed so vociferously in
opposition. That would mean that it effectively had to swallow
itself whole on this and many other issues. I would really
appreciate his feedback on that.
Mr. John McKay: Mr. Speaker, I do know that the Canadian
people have embraced this government three times. That, in and
of itself, is a rather remarkable concept. I do know that the
party opposite has not been so enthusiastically embraced. A
reduction of a majority government to two seats is somewhat like
a kiss from a sister.
I do know that between 1984 and 1993 we had some of the best
economic times that the country has ever enjoyed. The party of
the member opposite did nothing during that time and did nothing
to wrestle the deficit that it was continuing to run into the
ground. The Canadian people have passed judgment on that and
apparently they prefer the programs that this government has over
the proposals of the fifth party.
Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Canadian Alliance):
Mr. Speaker, I listened intently to the member's speech and it
sounded just like the previous speech by one of his colleagues,
the member from Mississauga.
He had the same basic comments in there, nothing new, nothing
innovative, nothing to support the project itself. It seems that
the speech writer over there has the same mindset that leads to
absolutely nowhere.
The Liberals have been mostly patting themselves on the back and
proclaiming this great open process that they want to deliver to
the Canadian public and to industry.
Let us talk about this openness that the member has alluded to
in his presentation. As I pointed out before, I have a book full
of access to information documents on this particular project
which clearly point to interference by the Deputy Prime Minister
in this process. He wanted the statement of requirements changed
so some changes were made through the senior oversight management
committee. The committee met seven times to deal strictly with
the SOR on the maritime helicopter. That is politicians
interfering directly into the affairs of the military. They had
no business being in the procurement process and yet it did
happen. Now, that was the Deputy Prime Minister, those
officials—
The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I know that it is not
much time when colleagues choose, as they may, to split their
time, but with questions and comments being only five minutes we
are running short of time. I encourage the member for Calgary
Northeast to possibly direct his question to his colleague
opposite.
Mr. Art Hanger: Mr. Speaker, I will do that very thing.
The member talks about this wonderful open process that the
Liberal government has embarked upon. Documents show exactly the
opposite. They show that there was political interference.
I would like the member to comment on just where he thinks this
project will go, given the past track record of his government
and its nasty interference into every procurement that it can put
its finger in.
1715
Mr. John McKay: Mr. Speaker, I question whether the hon.
member listened intently. Had he done so, he might have noticed
a substantial difference between the previous speaker and my own
speech. That being as it may, the hon. member seems somewhat
contradictory. On the one hand he wants us to be accountable and
on the other hand he does not want us to consult industry because
he believes we should have bids from unqualified groups.
Accountability in my view means the government gets involved in
designing the letter of intent. It designs the basic parameters
of any bid upon any contract at any time. It is there on the
website and I cannot imagine why the hon. member is upset with
the process. It is as open as open can be.
Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Mr. Speaker, I have
been following the debate throughout the day very closely. A
number of speakers have risen and most people recognize that we
need new helicopters for the Canadian military. That has been
stated over and over again even from the government side.
My difficulty with what I have been hearing from the government
benches is the total cost. There has been a serious
contradiction in the total cost of the helicopter procurement.
There has been a contradiction in the Liberal numbers. Every
time they put a speaker up I hear different numbers. I quoted
them once before when I asked a question, but for the record and
in my speech I will quote the numbers again.
These are government numbers. They are not my numbers or
fictitious numbers that we pulled out of a hat or out of the air.
They are the government's numbers. The EH-101 cancellation fees
are based on the numbers constantly cited by the government and
in the press.
We have stated them at $478 million. The government's own
numbers are $500 million. It has been reported in the press at
$786 million. It is probably closer to $1 billion. That is what
it actually cost the government to cancel a helicopter contract
for the EH-101s.
We can take the government's more modest figure of $500 million,
which is a little more than what we have been tracking them at.
Then we can put the Sea King maintenance and upgrade to the year
2008 at $600 million, and those are government numbers again.
Then we can add in the Canada search helicopter program, which
has already purchased 15 helicopters for $790 million. We also
can add in the Canada search helicopter's long term service
support for 25 years, which again is part of the real numbers.
The real numbers add up to $1.7 billion.
If we add the maritime helicopter project for an additional 28
helicopters at $2.9 billion, and the maritime helicopter project
long term service support for 25 years at $1.7 billion, the total
cost for the Liberal program, without inflation, is $8.2 billion.
Where is it getting the $4 billion figure? It is smoke and
mirrors. This is the real world. Those are your numbers. Stand
in the House and defend them, or contradict them again, but go
down the list. Everything that—
The Deputy Speaker: I know the member feels very
passionate about the subject on hand, but I would ask him to
direct his remarks through the Chair.
Mr. Gerald Keddy: Mr. Speaker, your direction is noted.
Certainly I meant to address my remarks through the Chair and got
carried away with the subject matter.
1720
The governments own numbers show that the cost of helicopter
procurement will be $8.2 billion. The total cost for the 43
EH-101s, based again on the government's own numbers from the
1993 election, was $5.8 billion. We can be assured that it did
not miss anything, that it added in every penny, dime and dollar
it could. There is a contradiction of $2.4 billion. Somehow or
another the government must come up with the numbers. It cannot
stand there and say its program is cheaper.
I have a personal interest in the helicopter bid and in search
and rescue helicopters. It was not many years ago, on February
15, 1982, that the Ocean Ranger sank off the Grand Banks of
Newfoundland losing 84 personnel on board. There were 90 knot
winds and 37 foot seas, average seas. I was working on a rig off
Sable Island at the same time with a 70 foot air gap and the
waves were hitting the bottom of the rig.
That is why we need search and rescue helicopters. That is why
we need defence helicopters that are fit to fly. People who are
put in the air in dangerous circumstances must be able to depend
on the machinery to deliver them to their target in a rescue
mission, a military mission, a humanitarian mission or whatever
it may be.
The government has forgotten that early in the morning of
February 15, 1982, when 84 Ocean Ranger personnel were
lost, many of them jumped overboard and were in the water when
the choppers got there. Anyone reading the write-up on that
disaster would be well aware that the men were dead when the
choppers arrived because it was at the extreme limit of the
helicopters' range. They a hold of some of the bodies but could
not pull them out of the water.
When we talk about helicopters on the east coast, we are not
talking about some type of expense. What is human life worth to
the government? What is human life worth to the friends,
families and loved ones of people who have been lost offshore in
the past or unfortunately may be lost in the future? It is not
worth debate in the House or discussions over dollars. I do not
care if they are millions of dollars. We need helicopters. We do
not need them in 2008. We needed them yesterday.
It is absolutely scandalous to debate the issue in this place at
this time with a government that cancelled a perfectly good
contract for 43 helicopters because the Prime Minister found
himself in a position where he had stated publicly that he would
take his pen and write zero helicopters.
Because the Prime Minister made a mistake and was not able to
admit to it, and because his government and colleagues of the day
would not force him to change his opinion, we are in a situation
today where we cannot carry out search and rescue activities at
any time on the east coast, west coast or in the high arctic.
Thank goodness we have helicopter crews and mechanics who are
absolute geniuses at keeping old helicopters airborne. Otherwise
we would be the laughingstock not only of NATO, not only of our
own country but of the entire planet.
I will relate an incident that happened in one of our NATO
exercises. If it were not such a sad thing it would be funny. We
had a chopper sitting on the deck of an American frigate, as was
typical. Our pilots were standing on the deck when an American
pilot came along.
One of the American pilots came over and asked, in a typical
southern accent, “You-all belong to that helicopter?” The
Canadian pilot said “Yeah, that is our chopper”. The American
pilot looked at him and said “Well, you know, it's smokin”. He
was appalled. There was smoke coming off the helicopter. There
was smoke coming from the engine housing. They could not believe
it.
1725
That would not happen in the United States. The Americans fly
better hardware and have better gear because they have at least
some respect for their military forces. They put them in danger
but they put them in danger with first class equipment, proper
backup and some consideration that they might be dependent upon
those soldiers, those men and women, at some future time in the
history of the country.
I worked offshore on the east coast from 1980 and 1988. I went
through two rig abandonments during that period. We ended up
staying on the rig. We were safe. There was a good chopper
sitting on the deck and we could have abandoned the rig at any
time.
I saw the abandonment of the Euro Princess, a Yugoslavian
freighter which had run aground off Sable Island. Sixteen
Yugoslav sailors were taken off the Euro Princess in 50 knot
winds and 30 foot seas. It was a very daring rescue mission
carried out under very difficult circumstances. There was a very
narrow window of time to get to the freighter because it had lost
power, no lights were working, it was in total darkness and it
was the middle of the night.
Our search and rescue people were able to rescue the sailors and
take them to Sable Island. The boat was 650 feet long and was
stuck on the bar around Sable Island. The worry was that it
would be swept free by a big wave and take the legs out from
underneath the Rowan Juneau, the rig I was working on at the
time.
The rig was abandoned except for 12 of us who kept the pump
circulating to prevent being stuck in the hole. The point is
that we would not be able to carry out that rescue mission today.
Mr. Paul Szabo: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
With respect, I do not see how the discussion is relevant to the
motion before the House.
The Deputy Speaker: I think the member was making the
case to get to that point of relevance. In the next two minutes
I am sure he will get to it, as we get ever closer to 5.30 p.m.
Mr. Gerald Keddy: Mr. Speaker, I will be cautious in how
I say this, but the relevant point is very simple. We need
helicopters for search and rescue. I understand as much as
anyone in the House that the helicopters are on order. We need
helicopters for our military personnel. We need first class
equipment because we have first class pilots, men and women who
operate the machines and who service them.
To suggest that on the high seas, on the east or west coast of
Canada or in the high arctic, human lives are not important is a
scandalous admission by the government, but it does not surprise
me at all. It is typical of what we have been hearing during the
debate and what we have seen from the opposition.
I quoted a lot of numbers previously and, quite frankly, we get
lost in the numbers. I will make a comment to the intervention
here again. We are not talking about numbers here, we are
talking about human lives. We are talking about how we can carry
out an offshore rescue, how we can find hunters who are lost, how
we can get people out of the high arctic and how we can medivac
people in dangerous circumstances.
Only a few minutes ago a member spoke about the fact that we
just had a major tremor on the west coast of Canada.
1730
The government is lucky, that is all, that the tremor was 46
miles underground instead of 16 or 17 miles underground. We
would not only have highways shut down in B.C., we would have
buildings collapse and we would have major fiascos. In order to
respond to that, we absolutely have to have the military up to
strength and we have to have rescue vehicles. Helicopters are
the only rescue vehicle that can be used in those circumstances.
[Translation]
The Speaker: It being 5.30 p.m., it is my duty to inform the
House that proceedings on the motion have expired.
The House will now proceed to the consideration of Private
Members' Business as listed on today's order paper.
PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS
[English]
EMANCIPATION DAY
Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Canadian Alliance) moved
That, in the opinion of the House, the government should proclaim
August 1 of each year Emancipation Day in recognition of the
heritage and contributions of Canada's black community.
He said: Mr. Speaker, it is an honour for me to rise this
afternoon on behalf of the constituents of Calgary East to speak
on Motion No. 242, a motion proclaiming emancipation day. The
text of the motion reads as follows:
That, in the opinion of the House, the government should proclaim
August 1 of each (and every) year Emancipation Day in recognition
of the heritage and contributions of Canada's black community.
Before I begin my comments on the motion, I would like to say
that I have been a member of the House since 1997. This is the
first time I have been able to bring forward one of my private
member's initiatives for debate. I quite frankly wondered if I
would ever get a chance.
How private members' business is conducted in the House is a
strong reflection of the muzzle placed on opposition members and
government backbenchers by the government. There are some
tremendous ideas generated from members of parliament that are
being ignored or discounted because of the limited time and
resources given to private members' bills and motions.
In the case of the motion before us today, it has been deemed a
non-votable item, meaning that after today's one hour debate, the
motion will disappear. All the time, energy and thought that
went into drafting the motion will simply disappear.
It is a shame that there is so little time for initiatives such
as these. The government could lengthen the time given to
private members' business each week. The government could allow
one bill and one motion from each opposition and backbench MPs to
be votable per session. Changes like this could have a
tremendous impact on this place, but then the government chooses
not to act.
Having said that, I will now begin my comments on Motion
No. 242.
Slavery in the British Commonwealth ended on August 1, 1834, a
day that is celebrated in several countries and Canadian cities
as emancipation day. This occurred a full 30 years before the
United States abolished slavery with Lincoln's emancipation act.
Spearheading the initiative was a member of parliament from the
British house of commons. William Wilberforce introduced a bill
to stop the importation of slaves into the British colonies. It
was he who raised the voice of conscience. He impressed upon his
peers the horrors of slavery and stressed that this barbaric
practice went against the teachings of Christianity and other
religions.
His heroic efforts have come to be recognized the world over and
influenced the great American emancipator, Abraham Lincoln. In
fact, Mr. Wilberforce's bill was the first international human
rights legislation.
The bill called for the freedom of all people. It was the
beginning of the global eradication of slavery. People tended to
identify black slavery primarily with the United States. To a
much lesser degree, slavery was practised in Upper and Lower
Canada in the 18th and early 19th centuries.
It is worth noting that in the 1790s, several members of Upper
Canada's legislative council and legislative assembly were slave
owners. At the same time, prominent individuals in both Upper
and Lower Canada were opposed to slavery. Individuals such as
Lieutenant Governor John Simcoe, Chief Justice William Osgoode
and Joseph Papineau were harsh critics of this barbaric practice.
1735
Emancipation Day is recognized in several countries and in both
the cities of Ottawa and Toronto.
I grew up in Tanzania. She is a country that has lost many of
its sons and daughters to slavery.
There is a little city on the coast called Bagamayo where we can
still see the ruins of structures in which slaves were held
before they were shipped to the Americas. Standing there, tears
come to people's eyes as they think of the suffering people
endured and the number of families that were torn apart.
Two years ago I had the honour of going with the Governor
General to Senegal. On the islands we saw where slaves were
taken out. Believe me, it was not a pretty sight that any human
being can be proud of.
Since 1834 Canada has played a vital role to thousands of those
whose basic human dignity was denied. We can take great pride in
the fact that the final destination of the underground railroad
was Canada.
This is a non-partisan initiative that I hoped would garner
unanimous support in the House of Commons. As Canadians, we
should not only acknowledge past injustices but we must celebrate
courage, compassion and conviction. We, as parliamentarians,
should feel a sense of pride that our system took a moral stand
on the issue of slavery.
The motion's only mandate is to recognize those people in the
world who were the first to recognize emancipation for what it is
and the hope it held for the millions of people who call
themselves Canadians today.
Canadians listening to this debate today will know that February
was a Black History Month. Across the country Canadians of
African descent celebrated and reflected upon their rich and
diverse heritage.
On February 22, on Parliament Hill, the Mathieu Da Costa Awards
ceremony highlighted students from across the country who
explored the contributions of Canadians of diverse ethnic and
racial backgrounds.
I met with the members of the Ontario Black History Society who
have been at the forefront of celebrations of black history for
more than 20 years. Through dedication and commitment, they
continue to spread the history of black Canadians and their
incredible achievements like: the great black Alberta cowboy Mr.
John Ware whose log cabin still stands in the Dinosaur Provincial
Park; Mathieu Da Costa who, in 1605, was thought to be the first
person of African descent to set foot on Canadian soil; and Mr.
Anderson Ruffin Abbot, the first black Canadian doctor.
I could go on and on about the past and ongoing accomplishments
and contributions of Canada's black community. Suffice it to say
Canada is a better country and a better place today because of
the contributions of black Canadians.
The motion I am speaking to today is not only about celebrating
these accomplishments but acknowledging past injustices and the
moral conviction of Canadians who took a stand against slavery.
I would like to end my comments with a poem published in a Negro
paper called, “The Voice of The Fugitive”, in January 1851.
I'm on my way to Canada, that cold and dreary land
The dire effects of slavery I can no longer stand
My soul is mixed within me so, to think that I'm a slave
I'm now resolved to strike the blow for freedom or the grave
O Righteous Father, will Thou not pity me
And aid me on to Canada, where coloured men are free.
I heard old Queen Victoria say if we could all forsake
Our native land of slavery and come across the lake
That she was standing on the shore with arms extended wide
To give us all a peaceful home beyond the rolling tide.
Farewell, old master, this is enough for me
I'm going straight to Canada, where coloured men are free.
1740
I would ask for unanimous consent of the members to make
this motion votable.
The Deputy Speaker: The hon. member is seeking unanimous
consent that the motion be made votable. Is there unanimous
consent?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
An hon. member: No.
[Translation]
Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ): Mr. Speaker,
I am pleased to address Motion No. 242 from the hon. member for
Calgary East, concerning Emancipation Day. The motion reads as
follows:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should
proclaim August 1 of each year Emancipation Day in recognition of
the heritage and contributions of Canada's black community.
While February, which seemed very long, is Black History Month,
this motion provides us with an opportunity to mark an
particularly important event for the black community in Canada
and in Quebec.
Indeed, August 1 marks the coming into effect, in 1834, of the
Emancipation Act introduced by Thomas Buxton in London's House of
Commons, in 1833. That act ended slavery in all the British
colonies. This was 30 years before President Abraham Lincoln's
Emancipation Proclamation freed Black American slaves.
When we think about slavery, the first thing that comes to mind
is the history of slaves in American plantations.
Who can forget Gone with the Wind or the television series
Roots? But we must remember that slavery also existed, although
on a lesser scale, north of the United States in what was then
called British North America, i.e. the Maritimes, Quebec and
Ontario.
At the time of the conquest in 1759 there were 1,132 slaves of
African origin on the soil of New France, although the French
crown had never authorized the slave trade in New France.
Following American independence the number of slaves grew,
particularly in 1783. Certain Loyalists left the United States
to settle in British North America, taking their slaves with
them. It was thus that 2,000 slaves arrived in the land we
inhabit today. Slavery remained legal in British North America
until 1834.
Unlike slavery during the same period in the United States and
in other parts of the British Empire, such as Jamaica, where
slaves represented the bulk of the manpower on large sugar cane
plantations, slavery in British North America may quite rightly
seem to have been a fairly minor phenomenon.
The legislation tabled in 1833 took effect on August 1, 1834.
It abolished slavery throughout the British Empire. However, it
provided for a transitional period of from four to six years
during which slaves would have to continue to work in the same
place, but as apprentices.
This legislation made provision for immediate measures to be
taken to abolish slavery throughout the British Empire.
Accordingly, all children born during the proceedings leading to
the passage of the legislation, or under the age of six, were
free. All slaves over the age of six had to serve an
apprenticeship of six years, in the case of slaves working in
the fields, and four years, in the case of others.
The legislation provided that apprentices were not to work more
than 45 hours a week without pay and that they should be paid
for any additional hours.
1745
For their part, plantation owners had to feed and clothe all
their apprentices. They also had to provide a fund for the moral
and religious education of former slaves.
Finally, compensation of 20 million pounds—I do not really know
how that translates in today's terms—was to be paid to slave
owners.
In the context of the 21st century, this law is a nightmare.
However, it marked the end of slavery in much of the world.>
August 1 is currently commemorated in Jamaica, the former
British Guyana, in the Caribbean, areas where slavery lasted some
considerable time.
In 1834 runaway American slaves turned to the British colonies
in North America until 1863, when President Abraham Lincoln
implemented the Emancipation Proclamation.
Many of us had little knowledge of the experiences of our
brothers and sisters in the Black community right here, in Canada
and Quebec.
The motion before us today shed light on an ignoble period in
our history, but one we cannot ignore. To recognize August 1 as
Emancipation Day is to recognize the deplorable, often horrible,
treatment accorded a whole group of people. It is to regret its
occurrence and, in the end, it is to apologize for it and
remember that the values of respect for humanity, equality and
justice give societies their real strength.
The Bloc Quebecois therefore supports this motion, seeing it as
an expression of a desire to recognize the equality of
individuals and the right to freedom.
[English]
Mrs. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.):
Mr. Speaker, I am quite pleased to participate in the debate and
exchange views with my colleagues on the motion to proclaim
August 1 Emancipation Day in recognition of the heritage and
contributions of Canada's black community.
Anyone sitting in the House can see for themselves that I am a
descendant of Africans. I am a descendant of African slaves
brought to North America during the system of slavery, so the
question of Emancipation Day in Canada is a personal issue for
me. I want to commend the member on the other side of the House
for his motion and for his initiative in tabling the motion and
calling on the government to declare August 1 Emancipation Day.
The timing of this debate makes the subject all the more
important. The Anti-Slavery Society of Canada was launched 150
years ago in February. The great American abolitionist,
Frederick Douglas, was in Canada at the invitation of this
society, as were other speakers. The society sent delegations to
Britain, lobbied churches and politicians and organized meetings
in support of the cause of slaves.
Let me start by saying that the heritage and contributions of
Canada's black communities are integral to the economic,
political, social and cultural history of this country and its
people. Therefore the spirit of the motion is a reflection of
what my government has been saying all along, that the heritage
and contributions of Canada's black communities have made our
country what it is: multicultural, inclusive, prosperous and the
best country in the world to live in.
I would like to quote Martin Luther King and something that he
said about Canada in one of his lectures in 1967:
Canada is not merely a neighbour of Negroes. Deep in our history
of struggle for freedom, Canada was the North Star.
I am sure Martin Luther King was sharing the same sentiments
Harriet Tubman felt during her various dangerous trips to bring
her people, African-American slaves, to freedom in Canada through
the underground railroad.
While we recognize the heritage, contributions and achievements
of blacks in Canada, we must also recognize their struggle and
challenges. The struggles of my people, the challenges my people
have faced, are a part of our history as Canadians and it is not
very well known by many Canadians.
1750
However, if we want to build a fair and equitable society we
have to start by acknowledging that our history is not perfect,
that Canadians have suffered injustices at different periods and
that it is regrettable that this otherwise compassionate and
welcoming country also has a history of injustice. This country
has a history of slavery.
I am sure that hon. members have already heard that slaves
existed from the time of the first explorers, under la
Nouvelle-France. My first French ancestor came here from Rouen,
France in 1668 at the same time that African slaves were here and
were being sold and, in some cases, executed at the will of their
owners.
Journey to Justice, a new film by the National Film Board
of Canada, charts the little known history of the struggle for
black civil rights in Canada. The history of our country has had
regrettable aspects, but Canada was a safe haven for some 40,000
to 60,000 slaves who escaped slavery in the United States in
search of freedom in Canada.
Why did they search for freedom here? Because Canada had the
saving grace that slavery was abolished in 1833, over 30 years
before it was abolished in the United States. In the United
States it took the American civil war to bring an end to slavery.
As we all know, the American civil war is the war in which more
Americans lost their lives than in the combination of the world
wars that we knew in the 20th century. Canada did not require a
civil war in order to bring about prohibition of and an end to
slavery. I think that is to our credit.
Some historians say that the underground railroad would not have
been possible without the co-operation of the Canadians who
ensured that there would be help for runaways once they made it
to Canada. Speaking of the underground railroad, we must also
recognize the role of the slaves themselves who engineered the
entire escape route, which included trails, rivers, swamps,
caves, barns and woods that led runaways to freedom at great risk
to their own lives.
My message to my colleagues here today is that Canada is proud
of the heritage of Canada's black communities. We value the
contributions of my community to Canada's development. At the
same time, we must draw an important lesson from our history to
make sure that Canada remains the north star, not just for blacks
but for all Canadians of every ethnocultural origin.
As citizens and leaders we should remain vigilant and be
committed that injustice never happens in our society again.
Every Canadian must have a place in our society and must be
afforded the opportunities to contribute to building the future
of this great nation.
Our government has made this commitment to Canadians and I would
like to say that we have demonstrated our commitment by taking
concrete steps in many areas. Let me give hon. members a sample
of what we have done.
In December 1995, a motion was passed in the House of Commons
officially designating February as Black History Month.
In 1998, Parks Canada and the U.S. national parks signed a
memorandum of understanding committing their services to a number
of projects, including the underground railroad. Under this
agreement we will ensure that the story of the underground
railroad is adequately commemorated and communicated to the
public. The multiculturalism program has assisted Parks Canada
and the black communities in the formation of an underground
railroad network to facilitate co-ordination among historic
sites, to improve conservation and to promote information sharing
and marketing of sites, nationally and internationally.
The multiculturalism program of the Department of Canadian
Heritage annually supports local activities organized by
communities in different parts of Canada to celebrate Black
History Month and will continue to provide the necessary support
for such activity.
In February of this year, the month that just ended yesterday,
the National Archives of Canada opened a very special exhibition
about the history of the anti-slavery movement in Canada.
Historical figures like Josiah Henson and leading abolitionist
Harriet Tubman are featured in this exhibition.
1755
I am pleased to say that three institutions, the National
Archives of Canada, the National Library of Canada and the
National Film Board of Canada came together to produce this work
in co-operation with a local organization called J'Nikira
Dinqinesh, an education centre that promotes awareness of black
history and experience.
On February 26, Journey to Justice, a film of the NFB of
Canada, was premiered at the National Library of Canada.
The Ottawa Citizen wrote about this exhibition and said:
Canada was Canaan,the Promised Land for thousands of black
Americans fleeing slavery. It was then, in the Fugitive Slave
Act, that the U.S. declared open season on runaway slaves—even
those in the North, who has previously been considered
free—sparking a rush to the border and galvanizing the fledgling
abolitionist movement in Canada.
I am quite proud of the multiculturalism program of the
government. The program continues to work with communities,
institutions and different levels of government to promote social
justice and equity in our society. The multiculturalism
initiative addresses local issues at the grassroots level,
promotes institutional change so that our institutions are
reflective of the makeup of our society and are responsive to the
growing diversity and facilitate public education so that
Canadians appreciate the rich diversity of our society.
We also have the March 21 campaign for International Day for the
elimination of racism. The multiculturalism program also
supports many initiatives.
I want to end by again commending the member opposite for his
motion. I think it is great. Given many of the statements made
by members of his party who sit in the House, statements that
were very derogatory toward the black communities, other
ethnocultural communities and government initiatives, I would
encourage him to support multiculturalism and attempt to change
the minds and policies of his members.
Ms. Wendy Lill (Dartmouth, NDP): Mr. Speaker, it is a
great honour and an opportunity for me to speak tonight on the
private member's motion to establish an emancipation day in
recognition of the heritage and contributions of Canada's black
communities.
It is an honour because I represent thousands of people in
Dartmouth and the communities of North Preston, East Preston and
Cherry Brook, many of whom are the direct descendants of African
people captured in the slave trade.
I am also honoured to speak on behalf of my esteemed colleague
from Windsor, Ontario, who also represents many black Canadians
who made their way out of slavery through the underground
railroad into Canada.
It is an important debate to have because it will shed light on
a widely forgotten and obviously shameful part of our history. We
can learn from it. It is an opportunity for us to think,
meditate and really try to imagine the experience of the first
African-Canadian descendants who arrived in the country.
Where does the story start? It started 500 years ago when
Spanish settlers first brought slaves from Africa to the
Dominican Republic. In the next 300 years, conservative
estimates say that over 10 million people were brought across the
Atlantic Ocean from Africa in the slave trade. Henry Bishop, the
curator of the Black Cultural Centre in Nova Scotia, said the
numbers could be double or triple that but they do not take into
account the numbers of women and children who died in transit.
Where did this human cargo come from? The original homeland of
most Nova Scotia peoples of African descent is west Africa. From
about 500 until the 1600s, the three west African kingdoms of
Ghana, Mali and Songhai were rich and powerful nations. Their
economic life revolved around agriculture, manufacturing and the
international trade of gold.
When the British established rice, indigo and tobacco
plantations in the southern parts of North America, plantation
owners first used native Indians as slave labour but then turned
their eyes eastward to the continent of Africa.
1800
In the 1700s European countries, including Great Britain, had
slave trading companies on the west coast of Africa in such
present day countries as Gambia, Sierra Leone and the Ivory
Coast. Men, women and children were captured inland, ripped away
from their families and brought to the coast by African dealers,
then sold and held in European slave factories. They would then
await shipment and be transported across the ocean.
In the Americas and the Caribbean, the Africans were sold for
cash. This money purchased sugar, rum, spices, cotton, tobacco,
coffee and molasses for sale in Europe. The transatlantic slave
trade between Africa, the Americas and Europe created immense
wealth for European nations. It was a cruel commerce in human
lives with no regard for anything except profit and power. I
believe it surpassed any atrocity, any genocide, as yet recorded
in human history.
In the northern colonies, slaves worked as farmhands, domestic
workers or in trades, such as lumbering, mining, blacksmithing,
weaving and spinning. A slave was not free to marry, vote or
move freely about. A slave could be legally whipped, starved,
tortured, mutilated or branded. A slave could be forced to have
children or to work many hours a day.
The first crack in the slave trade began during the American
revolution between 1776 and 1783. Historians customarily portray
the American revolution as an epic struggle for independence
fought by stalwart white columnists against mighty England. The
struggle for liberty, life and the pursuit of happiness also
involved tens of thousands of black Africans and their
descendants residing in the British colonies.
Caught in the middle of this war, thousands of them took up the
British offer of full protection, freedom and land in return for
their support for the British cause. When the rebel Americans
won the war, the black people in New York, who had joined the
British before the surrender, were issued certificates of
freedom. About 3,500 of these black loyalists fled to what is
now Nova Scotia and New Brunswick.
Black loyalist settlements sprang up in Annapolis Royal,
Weymouth, Digby, Windsor, Preston, Sydney and Halifax. About
1,500 black loyalists settled in Shelburne county. Free blacks
built the community of Birchtown, named after the man who signed
their certificates of freedom. Their freedom remained illusive
and hard won. The British had promised free land and rations for
three years to the black loyalists. However, most were cheated
of land and forced to work on public projects, such as road
building, and were denied equal status.
Racism, epidemics, poverty and harsh winters made life miserable
and for many the promised land became intolerable. In 1792 about
1,200 free blacks sailed from Halifax to Sierra Leone in west
Africa where they helped set up the capital which is now
Freetown.
Many more escaped slaves arrived in Nova Scotia from the United
States during the war of 1812 under conditions similar to the
ones of the black loyalists. They moved into the Halifax area to
settle in Preston, Hammond Plains, Beechville and Porters Lake.
However life remained brutal and dangerous. Slavery was still
legal and in force in Nova Scotia until slavery was abolished in
the British Empire in 1834.
Thousands of miles away, in the centre of the continent, in the
period leading up to the American civil war, many more black
African descendants travelled the underground railroad by night
through waterways, swamps, forests and backroads. With the
assistance of such groups as the Quakers, free blacks and native
Americans, these bonded men, women and children sought out the
freedom land of Canada.
A legendary conductor of the underground railroad, Harriet
Tubman, became known as the Moses of her people. Tubman was born
into slavery on a Maryland plantation and suffered brutal
treatment before escaping in 1849. Over the next decade she
returned to the American south many times and led hundreds of
freedom seekers north.
It almost paralyzes the mind to think of the hardships facing
these early black settlers in our country. It is hard for young
black Canadians of African descent to fathom the horror that
befell their ancestors or the courage and the tenacity with which
they carried on. They were held together by strength of purpose
and endurance, and by their faith in God. Black loyalists used
the church as a source of security, a social gathering place and
an educational institution.
The church provided a spiritual and emotional release for these
settlers. They continued to express their yearning and hope for
freedom and equality through spiritual songs.
1805
The memory of slavery and the scars of slavery run deep in the
black communities of Nova Scotia and all of Canada to this day.
They run deep in the literature of black Nova Scotian artists
such as Lucky Campbell, George Elliot Clark, Jeremiah Sparks, the
gospel choirs, the civil rights activists and the church leaders.
They run deep in their continued efforts to fight racism,
poverty, injustice and ignorance wherever they find it in their
struggle to raise their families and build strong communities.
They run deep in the words of the song which has become the
black national anthem and which begins every event within the
black community where I come from. I respectfully quote from
Lift every voice and sing:
It has been my privilege to speak today on the history of
Canadians of black African descent. I wish to offer my support
to the motion to enact an emancipation day so that we can
remember, learn, listen and appreciate the lives and the history
of these brave neighbours. Let us remember and work together to
make sure that they will indeed be free at last.
Mr. Scott Brison (Kings—Hants, PC): Mr. Speaker, it is
with pleasure today that I rise to speak to the motion to create
August 1 as emancipation day.
I commend the hon. member for Calgary East for introducing the
motion. I also commend my colleague, the hon. member for
Dartmouth, for her excellent discourse, particularly in her
description of the very important history of black communities in
Nova Scotia. I commend the hon. member for a particularly
thorough and engaging discourse.
Black Nova Scotians have made very important contributions in
the past and they continue to do so today. We are very proud in
Nova Scotia to have the largest indigenous black population on a
per capita basis of any province in Canada.
I was surprised and disappointed with the hon. member for
Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine when she turned what should have
been a non-partisan debate on a very important fundamental issue,
what should have been a celebration of multiculturalism, into a
partisan mudslinging match on the floor of the House of Commons.
I thought that was unnecessary and it is tragic that it happened
today. In this important issue there is clearly no role for
partisanship. Again I commend the member for Calgary East for
introducing the motion.
We should celebrate the progress that has occurred for black
Canadians since the days of slavery. We should celebrate the
emergence of some great Canadian black role models and black
Canadians who have made such a terrific contribution to Canadian
society and from whom we have all benefited. That awareness of
all our histories is important, particularly as a tool through
education to combat the negative impacts of racism and the lost
opportunities of racism. I think again, as we pause to recognize
and celebrate our individual collective histories, that it can
take us a long way toward tackling the negatives of racism.
Our party has had a strong history in this regard. It was the
leader of our party today who as Prime Minister in 1979 appointed
the first black Canadian to cabinet, Lincoln Alexander.
Later Mr. Alexander went on to become Canada's first visible
minority appointed as lieutenant governor of Ontario.
1810
We are proud in the other place to have Senator Donald Oliver, a
fellow Nova Scotian and certainly a very strong contributor to
the Senate. He is a great Canadian who serves the interests of
all Nova Scotians and all Canadians very well. Of course we have
Senator Anne Cools in the other place, and in this place we are
very pleased to have members of the black community who
contribute so much to the betterment of Canadian society.
l will mention a few individuals from Nova Scotia who made a
particularly great contribution to our history. The hon. member
for Dartmouth through her history in theatre would know the actor
Walter Borden. We are also proud of novelist Fred Ward,
filmmaker Sylvia Hamilton and poets Maxine Tynes and David Woods,
and poet, author and filmmaker George Elliot Clark, all of whom
have made significant contributions to our history and the
cultural mosaic of Nova Scotia.
I should have also mentioned that Senator Oliver is from
Wolfville, Nova Scotia, which is in my riding. I am also very
proud of Ted Upshaw, an inspector in the RCMP who is the highest
ranking black Canadian in the history of the RCMP. He is from
Three Mile Plains outside Windsor in my riding.
It is important that we celebrate these great contributions. As
we become more aware, particularly as young Canadians become more
aware of these excellent and important contributions, it can make
a lot of difference in tackling some of the misconceptions and
the stereotypes which so often hurt all of us. As a society it
has a negative impact from a macro perspective.
We can do an awful lot more through education by celebrating the
contributions of the past and present and working toward ensuring
a more unfettered access to the opportunities to shape the future
of our country.
We have to consider things like equality of opportunities in
terms of economic issues as well. We have to ensure that not
only our governmental institutions but also businesses and
individuals all strive a little harder to ensure that the
barriers to access, to success and to opportunity are taken down.
We have to make that commitment on an ongoing basis.
Nowhere is it easier to do that and to start setting an example
than through our education systems provincially. The federal
government can play a role in working with provincial governments
on these types of initiatives. I tend to think those are
probably the best places to start.
The motion of my friend and colleague from Calgary Centre to
designate August 1 as a holiday, as emancipation day, would be a
step forward. It would be beneficial in terms of helping achieve
some of these goals. It is only one step.
I commend the hon. member for bringing forward the motion. I
wish it had been made votable. It is unfortunate that in this
place so much work and thought go into private members' business
that are ultimately not provided with the level of attention I
feel is important or with the level of attention that the members
opposite would like to see provided to some important issues.
I regret that it was not made a votable motion. I regret that
some members opposite chose the opportunity to turn this very
important and positive debate into a more partisan exercise.
That should not in any way, shape or form detract from the
commendations for the member's initiative in bringing this
forward. I wish him all the best in this initiative and offer
the complete support of myself and my party for this initiative.
1815
Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Canadian Alliance): Mr.
Speaker, I would like to thank all parties for supporting this
initiative. This initiative recognizes a very important part of
what has happened in the world history and the role that Canada
and important people have played to take away suffering. I would
like to thank those who have made speeches tonight and joined in
the debate.
I would also like to join my colleague in saying that I feel
extremely sad that the member on the other side took this
opportunity to play politics. She could not understand that this
was a private member's motion, an initiative. She is a
descendant of slaves. She should have been out there supporting
this. However, she closed her remarks with unfortunate partisan
politics that has brought this debate down two notches.
I hope, and I join my colleague, that the importance of the
motion remains, irrespective of what she said and irrespective of
the government deputy House leader not trying to make this a
votable bill, despite the fact that the government keeps talking
about multiculturalism.
Let us stay focused on what the motion is all about which is the
importance of the abolishment of slavery, basic rights of human
beings.
The Deputy Speaker: The time provided for the
consideration of private members' business has now expired. As
the motion has not been designated as a votable item, the order
is dropped from the order paper.
[Translation]
It being 6.20 p.m., the House stands adjourned until tomorrow at
10 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24.
(The House adjourned at 6.17 p.m.)