Culturescope.ca - A Dialogue on Indigenous Knowledge

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Photograph - Canoe Creek, Gang Ranch, Alkali Lake - Courtesy of Racelle Kooy.jpg

Photograph—Courtesy of Racelle Kooy

Yvonne Vizina is Métis, from Saskatchewan. She is a master’s candidate in Education at the University of Saskatchewan (U of S), as well as Associate Director of the U of S Aboriginal Education Research Centre.

Racelle Kooy is from Samahquam and Dog Creek (Stl’atl’imx and Secwepemc) in British Columbia. She is a master's candidate at the School of Resource and Environmental Management, Simon Fraser University. She is also an Aboriginal tourism specialist with many years experience in the industry.

Racelle says:
Hi Yvonne

Yvonne says:
Hello Racelle

Racelle says:
I want to extend my hands in thanks to you. I am looking forward to seeing how the dialogue unfolds today.

Yvonne says:
It is good to be able to have a conversation with a kindred spirit so far away. Why don't we begin with introductions? I invite you to begin.

Racelle says:
Kukstemc! My name is Racelle, I am also honoured to be known as l’al’ó’ya7. My family hails from Samahquam and Dog Creek (Stl’atl’imx and Secwepemc). I am currently a master's candidate at the School of Resource and Environmental Management at Simon Fraser University. As a student and an Aboriginal tourism specialist, I am working with one of my home communities, Stswecem’c Xgat’tem. Today, I am privileged to be conversing with you, Yvonne, on the topic of Indigenous Knowledge.

Yvonne says:
Tanishi Kiya (Hello and how are you?). I am happy to be talking with you today, and sharing thoughts about Indigenous Knowledge. My name is Yvonne and I am Métis from Saskatchewan. I am a former high school educator by profession, specializing in the fields of Biology and Native Studies. I am currently working on a Master's Degree in Education at the University of Saskatchewan. As well, I am Associate Director of the Aboriginal Education Research Centre at the U of S.

Racelle says:
It is strange and wonderful to feel at ease with you- as we have never met. The topic that we have chosen to share about is not exactly easy or clear.

Yvonne says:
Yes, I agree with you. In Métis communities, when people meet for the first time, usually the first bit of time is spent inquiring of one another where you are from, who your family is, and who you are acquainted with. It is informal, but helps each become familiar with what, or who, the other person knows. So, thanks for your introduction.

Racelle says:
It took me some time and careful consideration to get on board. As I stated in my introduction, I am an Aboriginal tourism specialist, not an Indigenous Knowledge expert... Also, these "musings" are for a wide range of audience...I am concentrating on being accountable first and foremost to my family, traditions, and home communities.

Yvonne says:
Discussing the topic of Indigenous Knowledge (IK) is not easy for many reasons. However, our choice to share this discussion has purpose. For individuals wishing to begin to explore IK, often the only literature available is academic and theoretical. This is not the language with which IK is generally used by the majority of Indigenous Peoples. So, this dialogue is an effort to provide a glimpse into a dialogue on IK between two Indigenous women who have never met. We are both from Canada, but from different Nations. So, this is a real sharing of insight and exploration, of wonder and hope offered in the spirit of all our relations. In beginning to share with others our insights, and perhaps, some of the reasons why IK is difficult to discuss we can pose some questions to help frame a discussion.

Racelle says:
Sounds good. So shall we begin with delving into the implications for both of us to be discussing Indigenous Knowledge in a public forum?

Yvonne says:
Sure. Perhaps you would like to share thoughts on how you feel about discussing the subject of IK?

Racelle says:
IK is huge. When I first began preparing for this project I felt engulfed. After some reflection, I determined that I was most comfortable in providing a personal account, my dealings with IK. At the same time, to chose to come from that place, I feel exposed, yet I am forging ahead. I am grateful for the guidance of my Elders and family in preparing for this. With their help, I was able to be clear on what I would and would not share here.

Yvonne says:
I had a similar experience when I began my Master's studies last year. I had to think about what I knew as an individual, growing up in a small village in Saskatchewan, and now living in a large urban centre so far removed from a 'natural environment'. Each of us, I think, holds personal knowledge, and is also connected to larger bodies of knowledge through our family and communities. Starting here, I gained some comfort in the realization that individuals are not expected to know 'everything'. This is part of the communal sharing of knowledge. I have learned from other Metis individuals, as well as First Nations individuals. I have found that my personal journey of growth has been supported by many people sharing parts of their knowledge systems.

Racelle says:
Elaborating on our connection to larger bodies of knowledge...Through a previous job, I had the immense privilege of travelling across Turtle Island and going to different Aboriginal communities (First Nation, Métis, Inuit) and interacting with some amazing people who generously shared elements of their traditions, teachings and protocols. I am fortunate to be keep in contact/counsel with a number of them. We are able pick up the thread of conversations, one, two or three years later.

Yvonne says:
I think as Aboriginal women / individuals, often others are generous with their personal knowledge. However, I do know...and would like to acknowledge...that speaking publicly on the subject of IK has certain risks. On a personal level, I think it is important to say that the concept of humility is very important. I do not consider myself an 'expert' on IK, but only that I have some understanding of some things. Anyone who writes or speaks about the subject of IK, opens themselves up to potential criticism by others. There is a general perception that only certain people have a right to speak about parts of cultural knowledge systems. I think we are only discussing IK on a conceptual level here, and do not wish to lead people to believe that we are speaking on behalf of 'Nations'.

Racelle says:
That would be why I have chosen to elaborate only on my personal experience...As you say, to speak about IK is to open ourselves up to criticism. Given the nature and sensitivities associated with IK, I am speaking solely for myself, about that which I have experienced firsthand.

Yvonne says:
It is true that here, I often hear people begin their conversations with apologies for their words before they even say them! I think this is part of humility and hoping not to offend others. Yet, there are many benefits to having these kinds of dialogues. Can you describe what you see are benefits of discussing IK between individuals? Nations? Diverse groups of People?

Racelle says:
As individuals, as Nations...if we do not discuss IK, who will? And under what authority? IK is the base of our cultures, our language, our traditional beliefs, our protocols. Why is it hard to talk about IK? It is political, it is emotional, it is spiritual. It affects me at all levels. If we do not take the initiative to talk about IK outside of our communities, where will those who are not part of our community, gain insight into what is appropriate and what is not. In sharing, we make "others" part of our community, in a good way. They are given an opportunity to understand who we are, and respect our place. Our place- figurative and literal. Here in British Columbia, with the land claim process, we are negotiating with other government what our “place’ means geographically, economically and politically. In addition, we are continuing to ascertain “our place” through cultural repatriation, our languages being taught in the classroom…

Yvonne says:
Yes, I think the scope of learning grows as we begin to 'network' with other Indigenous Peoples of the world. And others in general. For me, my journey really began with a simple love for the natural world. Appreciation and wonder for all life, from the very small to the very large. Then, beginning to ask questions of others and sharing knowledge opens up new understanding and thought. I think as adults we learn the value of our traditional knowledge systems, and see similarities within other cultures. Exploring cultural similarities, as well as differences, provides us with new insight. I think we all hold pieces of a large puzzle, but will never see solutions until we begin to share our pieces in a respectful and integral way.

Racelle says:
I am reflecting on how my worldview has shifted and changed with "maturity" and exposure to other cultures.

Yvonne says:
In what way?

Racelle says:
In your pieces of a large puzzle, analogy....It alludes to why I feel that humility when I speak of IK...Yet as we our sharing our pieces of the puzzle in a respectful fashion, we do so with the hope that it can be matched with someone else's. In thinking of the time I spent in Central America, Northern Africa and Europe, there has been an evolution in how I interact with people of different cultures, of how I share with them. These are experiences that helped me embrace and honour the distinct cultures of the Aboriginal Peoples of Canada…

Yvonne says:
I was thinking about the concept of cross-cultural relations / research and such things. I was wondering if this is a good term to be using when we are talking about learning from others. I am not aware of too many Aboriginal individuals who are exploring the cultures of others. It seems that the emphasis is more on delving into specific Aboriginal cultures by others. I think that perhaps traditional forms of networking were a little different.

Racelle says:
How do we express the intimacy and trust of sharing of one's culture with some one who is not of our culture(s)? It is a non-linear process. It goers back to how you explained people interact when they first meet, establishing connection- through lineage, profession, etc.

Yvonne says:
I think also traditional knowledge exchange occurred over very long periods of time. In that, the learner had certain processes to go through before being able to request certain knowledges. Whether they might be formal or informal exchanges, there was, and is, always a process.

Racelle says:
In talking to a dear friend who was instrumental in developing tourism opportunities in his community, he explained that, in the beginning, the first 9 months, a lot of tea was sipped and light chat took place. He also said, that in talking with his Elders, he listened and waited for many months... After a "time" the Elders were comfortable, felt that they were heard and began to ask questions in earnest about what opportunities were available for their community. An official timeline/ agenda would have snuffed out their participation. I had similar experiences with my thesis; I work with the rhythm of the community.

Yvonne says:
That brings up an interesting subject in the ethical use of IK.

Racelle says:
As well as commercial use of IK and Technology.

Yvonne says:
We know that in contemporary times there is still an absence of good policy for accessing / protecting / using IK outside of Indigenous communities. Yet, as the world turns its eyes to the value of IK, there is a need to find methodologies to ensure that IK remains within the domain of Indigenous Peoples. I am aware that the Tri-Council policy governing research by such institutions does not have official policy on interaction with Indigenous communities. This is an area that has many opportunities to lead a real collaboration on ethical interaction. We are aware of the disparities between academic researchers, policy developers, etc. But, often our communities do not have the capacity to match the requests for research and interaction.

Racelle says:
I am living that experience, as we speak....I am not an outsider but at times know that my research needs overwhelm the precious resources of my small community, even if my work will have benefits for my community. I am touched and honoured by the courage of my community, in agreeing to work with me. They opened themselves up and shared. Some of that experience is only for me... Other parts are for sharing with others, with the hope that it will provide some insight.

Yvonne says:
Yes, I understand this.

Racelle says:
It is a peculiar place to be in- preparing to share certain aspects of my project with the funder, other parts with the university/academic world and everything with my community.

Yvonne says:
I would like to ask you a question. What motivated you to pursue your studies? What do you hope to achieve?

Racelle says:
When I was completing my bachelor's degree...I focused on Aboriginal tourism. When I was nearing completion, I was writing extensively on the topic and had the privilege to work for a professor as a research assistant... The more I researched Aboriginal tourism, the more I realized that the expertise in this industry could benefit from an Aboriginal researcher sharing his/her perspective. As Aboriginal tourism involves showcasing/ sharing our cultures and traditional territories, I was determined that I would take my place and share from the heart/ from my intrinsic connection to my ancestors/ territory/ traditions. At the same time, in taking that place, as a researcher, I could also do my part in being a guardian of those same cultures, traditions, and protocols, being responsible for what was to be shared and not to be shared with tourists.

Yvonne says:
Well, you raise a good point. Many Aboriginal writers have commented that there is a need to establish a form of 'gatekeeper' to community knowledge / Indigenous knowledge. I am aware that the Miq'maq communities have been able to do this through a formal relationship with a local university. I admire their ability to work together for a common purpose. Even though I realize that every community will want to do things in their own manner, and at their own comfort level. For my thesis work, I have begun to explore how the community might like to undertake collaborative work. Being aware of accepted methodologies and academic requirements is my responsibility. But, it is also my responsibility to have the needs of the community met in a manner acceptable to each person involved with the research.

Racelle says:
I wholeheartedly agree with that. But to meet both requirements- academic and community- albeit an incredibly enriching experience, requires more time than "normal", at least that what it translates into for my thesis. It is something that both my graduate supervisor and I have had to accept.

Yvonne says:
In some ways, as Aboriginal individuals, we carry a large responsibility to walk in multiple worlds as we work to achieve collaboration and bring new information forward. It is important to work in a way that the community benefits from the work undertaken. This is where I find that movement begins to slow down for myself as I think carefully about each step that I take.

Racelle says:
For me, it has been taxing at time, mentally, spiritually and especially emotionally. I am aware that my work will affect my relatives, my community and future generations. It is why I deliberate and move forward with care.

Yvonne says:
As an urbanite, I have found that I have been groomed by the world around me to work hard, work fast, meet deadlines, etc. I think that I am moving from circle to circle, where each one moves at a different speed. I find it important to remember that when I interact with people from my community, that we must move together. It is important not to be 'demanding', but to experience the moments at hand because there are answers to questions that are not spoken, but rather shared in intangible ways. It is a process of internalization. It makes me think about all the technological tools that I have, and the speed at which they give information (not necessarily corresponding understanding). There are tremendous amounts of information available from all over the world. Most of our communities and community members do not have these things, so our perspectives become different.

Racelle says:
I find that, with the speed of information sharing, the act of sharing the information- the all important framing of that information can/is missed. I believe the word I that I am alluding to is context. Without context, IK can be swept along in the tide of information... It may not be internalized, may not be claimed, and may be simply glossed over. With IK, there are protocols and responsibilities. It gets back to the topic of ethical use of IK. One matter to clarify- I am not against technology and the opportunities to share that it offers. But how and when to share- this touches on the question of gatekeepers of IK.

Yvonne says:
There is a whole area developing regarding the electronic storage of IK. I think this is, perhaps, similar to issues of having cultural artifacts stored or housed apart from Indigenous communities of origin. Yes, these are sensitive areas, which take us back again to collaborative process and decision-making.

Racelle says:
Collaborative process and decision-making? A large portion of my thesis is dedicated to that very topic. Empowering my community with knowledge so that they can determine which direction they wish to take in developing tourism.

Yvonne says:
As our societies grow in their abilities to collaborate equitably, we will have more opportunities to redefine educational processes, economic development processes, environmental stewardship processes, etc. As an educator, of course, I firmly believe that it is here that we have to make progress with 'decolonization' in order to create better methods of ensuring Indigenous Knowledge is perpetuated into the future.

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