Two of the six men found dead Friday in an apartment in Surrey, B.C., were innocent bystanders caught in a gang-style slaying, RCMP said Tuesday.Fireplace repairman Ed Schellenberg was one of two innocent victims found dead in a Surrey apartment Friday. (Family photo)
Edward J. Schellenberg, 55, of Abbotsford and Chris Mohan, 22, of Surrey were going about their daily business when they got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time, police said at a morning news conference.
Schellenberg was a gas fireplace repairman who was working in the building that day. Police did not say why Mohan was at the apartment.
"The nature of the murders leaves us with the opinion this incident is not a random event," said Chief Supt. Fraser MacRae of the Surrey RCMP detachment. Full Story
What do you think?
When police describe killings as "not random" or "targeted," do you take any comfort in that?
If you live in Balmoral Tower or have a news tip related to this story, please contact CBC News here.
Comments: (74)
I live in a house with my parents and my grandmother. Do I take comfort when these killings are targeted? Absolutly not, I can't beleive that the lower mainland is getting run over by crime. And even if there was a targeted, not random shooting beside my house, if anyone in my family were to get hurt, what would we be? Collateral Damage? It makes me extremely angry when stuff like this happens, but I guess thats what I get when I watch the news every morning.
Posted October 29, 2007 08:42 PM
As an owner of an apartment in the second building whom I rent to a family member whose to say she is not in elevator hears something and then like Chris is killed. Do I take comfort in knowing it was a targeted crime. NO People died needlessly and families and the community will and do suffer. In this case two by-standers one working and the other probably heard a noise or scream for help and went to see and he lost his life. These people have no regard for life. 5 of those men barely started their life. I don't care if some were involved in drugs or had criminal records there were young men (kids) and no one deserves to be killed for any reason least of all over drugs. The USA is so interested in terror why don't they install a xray machine at the border to stop the influx of guns from washington state. Why because its a big business and they don't care they contitution is one has the right to bear arms well look America where it gets one.....innocent people by-standers get killed for being in the wrong place at a bad time.
Posted October 28, 2007 08:44 AM
Gang members should be treated as terrorists, because they are essentially illegal armed militias.
Their civil and human rights should be suspended, and the military should be deployed in Canadian cities and given the right to use standard war-time rules of engagement against known gangs and gang members. Just give them a list of who they are allowed to kill.
The RCMP has neither the capability, the legal rights, nor the support from the judiciary - needed to effectively stop the profileration of armed gangs in Canada.
Posted October 27, 2007 04:16 PM
No, I don't take comfort in the that they were targeted killings. Anyone of us could be " in the wrong place at the wrong time" on any given day. The Criminal/courts system really needs to get tougher on the gang violence. What good are they doing letting them off so easily on first & second offences.
Posted October 26, 2007 09:55 AM
we should make changes to our legislation so that these gangs can be classified as organized crime. Therefore, police can arrest members and seize theis assets. Otherwise, we are going to see more and more gang violence in the future.
Posted October 26, 2007 08:23 AM
No, police statements regarding targeting of killings provide me with no comfort. Such statements lessen my faith in the police since these are murders where the gang responsible left the victims' bodies to be found by police as a message not just to other gangs, but to the police themselves and the greater public-at-large. If the recent mass murder in Surrey was indeed targeted as police claim, then the incident was not only a gang killing, but an act of narco-terrorism committed within our community.
Posted October 25, 2007 06:36 PM
There was a statement made by a UBC criminologist who said Lower Mainland police are not well organized enough to tackle gang activities, and i'm likely to agree. People who are there to outsmart the system are very innovative, and often extremely intelligent and organized - i don't think the same organizational motivation exists within our police force.
In Montreal in the 90s' i believe, when the Hell's Angels were fighting the Rock Machine over drug turf, it wasn't until a small boy was killed by a bomb/assassination attempt that the province really stepped it up and went after a lot of the leaders.
How many more innocent bystanders have to die, until the province really takes this seriously... - the drug trade is a huge issue in BC, we might be relaxed about it, but when turf wars spill out onto our neighborhoods, there's something that's gone really wrong.
I think in terms of solutions, a multi-pronged approach is required, but that's the kind of strategic planning at a federal/provincial/municipal level that doesn't seem to exist.
Posted October 25, 2007 06:16 PM
The police and the court system are too complacent, and this complacency is only encouraging criminals to use BC as their private playground. Having gangs fighting on our streets will only put innocent people in constant danger.
I agree with one of the previous posters on the example of Singapore - it is one of the most prosperous and human rights-abiding democracies in Asia, and it has incredibly tough laws, police, and courts that have been extremely successful in deterring crime. What we need is to import that example into Canada. We cannot be soft on the criminals, when the criminals will never be soft on innocent people in the first place. Those people who complain of a "American-like police state" every time they hear about harsher laws against criminals should not need to worry unless they are criminals themselves.
Posted October 25, 2007 05:31 PM
Gang members inflict far more harm on society than terrorists ever have - and that's where our resources should be going.
Posted October 25, 2007 02:49 PM
This type of question is quite interesting, reading through the responses there are many people who have hooked onto the issues surrounding the killing and missed the point of the question; "When police describe killings as "not random" or "targeted," do you take any comfort in that?"
For me the answer is simple, no. I do not take comfort in the fact that a killing is targeted, killings are killings. That being said, a bigger question that people tend to be focusing on is do we feel safe in current society in the Lower Mainland.
Many people in this survey have bought into the sensationalism portrayed through the media that these murderous crimes are everywhere and that we are in grave danger. I tend to think that given the size of the population in the Lower Mainland which is in excess of 2 million people and the fact that the media is only able to name 7 events in which a total of 11 people died during this year speaks volumes. Far more people are likely to die from mundane causes such as car accidents then from gang violence. Do I feel safe in the lower mainland, definitely (I will check both ways before crossing the road though).
Posted October 25, 2007 12:29 PM
Why are the police so involved in "Protecting criminals from criminals"? Protect innocents from criminals.Money is wasted with an autopsy to tell us that the bullet destroyed the lungs,head,guts or whatever.Any idiot know that a shot to the head might well be fatal.
Posted October 25, 2007 11:00 AM
I don't care if these gang bangers take each other out, it's the innocent bystander that gets murdered that angers me the most.
Over 100 gangs operating in Vancouver?! At least back in the day with the Hells Angels, the gangs were led and controlled by 1-2 main groups. Criminal activity will never go away, but if the police could at least reduce the number of gangs that would be a first step.
Maybe the Hells Angels aren't so bad, but the rest of these young punk gangs are!
Posted October 25, 2007 09:16 AM
How can anyone feel safe with gun-toting drug dealers in our midst? It's not only when people get killed that there is a terrible cost to society. People seem to be overlooking the other damage done by drugs, not only to drug users, but to society at large: theft, extortion, prostitution, and murder. Not to mention the costs to the medical and judicial systems, all those police hours, etc, the costs are endless - and the average law-abiding person on the street is stuck with the bill. I'll bet those drug dealers don't pay taxes!
Posted October 25, 2007 07:23 AM
Rob from Surrey, it is not the people who support an end to drug prohibition who are idiots, it is the people who approach this issue from a moral/ideological perspective, while totally disregarding the lessons we should have learned from history.
During alcohol prohibition, this type of violence was common, including the innocent people killed in the "crossfire". Now that it is legal to make and sell alcohol, it is nonexistent. When was the last time you ever heard about this kind of massacre related to the manufacture and distribution of booze? There's a lesson to be learned here, and it is unbelievable how many people cannot seem to get it.
Does this mean we have no societal problems from alcohol? Don't be ridiculous. Will ending drug prohibition end all societal problems from other drugs? Of course not. Ending prohibition is the right thing to do simply because the set of problems associated with prohibition is worse than the set of problems associated with regulated and controlled use. This is not guesswork, this is common knowledge by all people capable of examining this issue without invoking morals, ideology, or other prejudices.
As for all you people who think it's fine for people to be killed because they are criminals, I can't say you are wrong, because you are merely stating an opinion, after all. However, I can say that your judgementalism and lack of compassion embarrasses and shames me.
Posted October 24, 2007 10:56 PM
As a former resident of the area within the 10 blocks around the murder scene, I am in shock even from such a far physical distance away. I am speaking from a person having had lived in that area and now in a country where drugs are completely forbidden and there are harsh punishments. I have peace of mind now, with the harsh penalties in place and feel very secure knowing my 13 year old son will not be exposed to drugs as long as we are living here. I do worry about when and if we decide to move back to British Columbia and where a safe neighbourhood exists for us to live in. I wish that the Vancouver area and everyone would be safer in their neighbourhoods and homes and that the criminal justice system would not be so 'lax' with their punishments, as there are obviously innocent people being slaughtered amongst these gang wars. Drugs are a dangerous thing, as they are connected to all sorts of crimes, including major theft, etc, all which must be punished harshly. Let children be allowed to be children and neighbourhoods to be safe. Let the good people have peace of mind once and for all and stop "slapping wrists" as punishment -- once a crime is committed even as a first time, the punishment should be harsh.
Posted October 24, 2007 08:12 PM
If you want to do a crime and punishment comparison, try SINGAPORE. Texas enforcement is a nursery school....beyond any doubt, Singapore, where you can leave your wallet on a park bench and no one will touch it, has proven that punishment of criminals deters crime including murder. Law-abiding people of Singapore feel SAFE, not oppressed. In Canada, citizens rightly feel UNSAFE, young thugs thumb their noses, and so-called criminal justice professionals, especially defense lawyers, GET RICH!
Posted October 24, 2007 05:30 PM
I'm quite appalled by comments saying that they feel 'comforted' that criminals are killing criminals. This isn't something to be happy about, when people die, someone always loses out.
When criminals kill each other, innocent people are also caught in the cross-fire, and the fear - i don't know what the solution is, but feeling good that people are dying, criminal otherwise just doesn't seem right.
At some point in their lives, they took a wrong turn, but otherwise they were kids just like you and me, with ambitions and hopes of having a happy life.
Posted October 24, 2007 02:43 PM
Sad to say this, but seeing that Canada does not have the death penalty, I would rather see this type of shooting happen than another innocent Canadian victimised by this kind of people.
Where has our Justice System's common sense gone?
Posted October 24, 2007 01:38 PM
Well just because they are targetted hits or shooting whatever they are calling them it goes not make me feel any safer people are being shot in their vehicles and restaruant parking lots so what we are just suppose to stay in our homes and no go out I am handicapped and even going out on my scooter now a days is well risky cause you just don't know where the next one is going to be. Even driving somewhere into a parking lot of a restaurant it could happen.
So NO I DON'T FEEL BETTER THAT THEY HAVE BEEN TARGETTED INCIDENTS LOOK AT THOSE POOR TWO IN THIS LAST ONE THE REPAIRMAN WAS JUST DOING HIS JOB.
Thanks Kerry
Posted October 24, 2007 12:24 PM
I am in full support of the bad guys killing the bad guys. I hope they keep doing it to each other. Saves a lot of hassle in courts. It's the innocent that get caught in the cross-fire that upsets me. I knew Ed Schellenberg. We worked together at Nothwest Baptist College for about 8 years. He lived directly across the street from me when I lived in Abbotsford. We attended the same church, went fishing together and our kids played together. Until you have been touched as close as I have to a terrible incident such as this, you really have no idea what it is like. One of the worse things is that *if they catch and can convict these cowards who slaughtered my friend*, these useless, un-wanted pieces of society will only get a couple years in jail and will then get out and do it again. The Canadian justice system is crap!
Posted October 24, 2007 10:00 AM
The only comfort that I take in these acts not being random or targetted means that there wasn't some psycho roaming around with the intent to kill just anyone - man, woman, or child. HOWEVER, the fact that 2 innocent people were "at the wrong place, at the wrong time" is discomforting in itself because that means it could still happen to just anyone - there's no guarantee of safety. It's a tragedy that these innocent individuals have to die & leave their loved ones behind when they had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the targetted persons. The sad truth is that will likely be the case where innocent people are always caught in the middle. Call it collateral damage, casualties of war, or whatever, but it's disgusting that these criminals have to be brutally inhumane to inflict such pain & suffering on their victim's loved ones. My comfort in that - what comes around goes around, so it'll only be a matter time when it nips them in the rear, whether it be here or in the afterlife.
Posted October 24, 2007 09:08 AM
Why is time even being devoted by the news media covering this story or by the police investigating it?
In Canada our laws on all fronts are so severely lacking that it is a total waste of tax payers’ dollars to put on the pretentious front of investigating crime.
Until we see some willingness from all levels of government to take corrective action and stop wasting time with studies about crime Ad nauseam we either continue
as we do, as good passive Canadians and accept the level of nothingness that we get from our government or start taking measures ourselves.
Posted October 24, 2007 08:39 AM
Im never comfortable hearing anything about shootings or murders, especially so close to home. It's a sad thing to have happen.
However, hearing that it was targeted at least makes me know they aren't going around randomly shooting whoever they see. So yes I guess I do take a small comfort there. For me, though, Im more actively concerned about the muggings/beatings around the Skytrain stations the past couple years. That is more of a reality to worry about for an average commuter then getting caught in gang crossfire.
Posted October 24, 2007 08:01 AM
I still feel very safe in my town. The chances of being an innocent victim of this type of crime is very, very remote.
Now, as for these "young criminals" There are several problems.
1. I bet all had been before the courts several times before this, and police knew them all. Why don't we punish our criminals? Get these lowlifes off the street. If you decide to take from society in an illegal way, rather than contribute to it then your gone. You know the risks, and it is the law abiding society people that need to make those risks high.
I would gladly pay extra taxes for more jails to keep these guys out of sight and locked up.
2. V from Burnaby. It's tragic that you lost your brother, but these kids played a game they somehow thought they were immune from anything bad.
Let me tell you something everyone else already knows, when you engage in this type of lifestyle and activity, the risks are always there, and you deserve whatever you get. I am sure they thought nothing like this would ever happen to them, well guess what? It did and they have no one else to blame but themselves.
What makes matters even worse is that two innocent vistims were taken with them...........whay don't you feel sorry for those two people instead. The bums that got killed were in a lifestyle that gets them killed. END OF STORY!
Posted October 24, 2007 07:41 AM
The statement that "the killings were targeted" provides adequate assurance that this was premeditated murder.
The fact that bystanders were also murdered provides evidence that we are not necessarily safe in pursuing our daily law abiding work.
The number of murders resulting from gang type violence in the last fifteen years exceeds the total of gangsters murdered during the prohibition years.
The number of innocents who have been harmed defies understanding.
What is clear is that control of the situation is not improving. While many red herring political solutions and policies have been pursued the situation has continued to deteriorate.
The real casualty has become the confidence we have for those in authority.
Posted October 23, 2007 10:20 PM
I am so sick and tired of hearing people stating their obviously uneducated opinion about how prohibition didn't work and how we should legalize the drug trade. You idiots think that will solve the problem? How about we punish the criminals who commit drug crimes, put them in jail ( real jail, not the club feds we have now) and thereby take away the %2 of the population that commit these crimes? The current trend in society, and in BC in particular, seems to be an overwhelming tendancy to place the blame elsewhere. Everytime I read a newspaper I see quotes in it like: "its not their fault they're addicts, they have a disease!" " its not his fault he became involved in the gang" and "He was just turning his life around when he was in that stolen car that crashed" If I read one more quote from some idiot parent or relative explaining how its not their loved ones fault that they were a criminal, I'm going to be physically ill. No one takes responsibility for their actions.
Our society needs to step up to the plate and say that they will not stand for this type of behaviour anymore. We need to support our police and demand action from our courts and our MP's. If we continue to take this "lazy parent" approach to criminal activity, by essentially saying " gee no matter how many times we tell johnny not to strap on a gun and sell crack, he continues to do it, I guess we should just make it legal and maybe he won't want to do it anymore" we will continue to see tragedies, like what happened in Surrey,happen throughout Canada. And the innocents that get caught in the cross fire will only increase.
Posted October 23, 2007 10:08 PM
Just the facts please... just the facts.
The facts - 6 people died, 4 were associated with each other and the murderous culprits are still at large. The only comfort that’s ever going to come out of a situation like this is in knowing that those responsible have been convicted and are serving an appropriate sentence.
I’d prefer the innuendos, speculations and media spins to be checked at the door in a situation as serious as this. There is a time and a place when it’s appropriate for the Police to be putting this situation into perspective for us – that time is in the forwarding of charges to the crown and the place is in a court of law.
Until then, just the facts please… just the facts and only those facts that don’t compromise your investigation.
Godspeed to IHIT and the RCMP.
Posted October 23, 2007 10:03 PM
How can you feel safe knowing that there are people out there with weapons, that murder in cold blood, lack remorse, and carry on about there day, perhaps you see them in the grocery store, on the street.
Posted October 23, 2007 08:32 PM
No. Yes would have been the case but as we can clearly see the problem has escalated to a point where individuals completely unrelated to what is happening are silenced because of the apparent 'They know to much' -- being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
As for the fact that they are 'just kids'. At their age they should know what they are getting into. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that if you play with fire theres a chance you'll get burned.
Posted October 23, 2007 07:56 PM
From what I have heard about murder most of them are done to someone by a person they know so there isn't much comfort to these "random" statements .
What is really disturbing are murders such as are occurring on the "Highway of Tears" with no real leads and so many over such a long time frame .
This sort of callous disregard for our aboriginal lives is much more disturbing!
Posted October 23, 2007 07:07 PM
Bradley, hope you read what AJF from New Brunswick wrote. As he points out the judges here in B.C. are soft on crime, this a fact. I'll go one step further, your buds the defence lawyers , when known criminals walk through their doors, do they ever say enough is enough, out with you. No, their in the business for the money, justice is secondary, if existent at all. On the news today it was pointed out the four targeted deceased persons have been through the legal system, and were always able to go free. I bet there are a few criminal Lawyers in B.C. having problems sleeping these nights, knowing that innocent people were murder, simply because they were in their clents presence, when evil came calling.
Posted October 23, 2007 06:43 PM
It is upsetting that we are having difficulty living together amicably and respecting each other's differences. Because I am not part of a gang and they are not part of my social circle, I am reassured in knowing that I have not fuelled any killings of that nature. A homicide of any kind, however, is horrifying, disturbing and unacceptable.
Whenever an organized killing is gang related, it greatly concerns me that one day the innocent bystanders might be a member of my family or a friend. We, as a society, need to come together to find ways of supporting our police and swaying our courts to make changes to the laws and enforce the consequences given out, so that in the future those concerned will think twice about taking out their frustrations and anger in such violent ways.
Posted October 23, 2007 06:26 PM
The criminals in all of this are bastions of the justice system who consistently refuse to deal with criminals in any serious way. I lament the loss of innocent life and hope the judges of his country (and BC in particular) lay awake nights thinking about their role in this horrendous crime!
Posted October 23, 2007 06:24 PM
There are countries in Africa where police are snipers who sit on the tops of buildings over markets, watching for purse snatchers. You steal, they will kill you within seconds. The crime rates in these countries have drastically dropped, especially theft. I don't believe that innocent people who die should be statistics. There was obvious activity going on before the shooting, and what were we doing then? Letting it slide, and slide, and slide, until someone dies.
The people who want coke, crystal meth, heroin, and other drugs are going to obtain them whether they are legal or not. By legalizing these substances, we would have the opportunity to monitor and track the activity of users. And by accepting that this is a problem and that we have to deal with it, we will have taken the first steps toward the eradication of gang- and drug-related crime. How we talk about it doesn't matter until we actually do something. Canada is a democracy, you all have the right to make a stand.
Posted October 23, 2007 06:10 PM
NO
Posted October 23, 2007 05:34 PM
I feel fine.
I realize that there may be innocent citizens harmed by events like this and that is truly unfortunate.
Criminals killing each other off sounds like a self-solving problem to me, probably less paperwork for our police officers to do as well which means they have more time to be out performing their duties.
Simply put, if these people were productive members of society or only hung out with people who earn an honest living and contribute something to this world then they would still be breathing.
As for gun laws: We have them, they don't work. I don't own a gun, nor would I. Criminals don't get guns legally.
Posted October 23, 2007 05:16 PM
What everyone is failing to note, is that the 4 murdered are basically kids – not life long hard criminals. We don’t know what brought them there, in that apartment that day, or the lives they led up until then. It is easy for us to judge in our arm chair. In particular, my thoughts are with the younger brother (the 19 year old) who may have just been tagging along with big brother. In my view, despite the environment of the crime, these boys are all victims! - any way you look at it…and so are their families - for the rest of their lives.
My brother was killed years ago in a similar fashion when he was only 22. Now, years later, I still suffer his loss. And when I hear about events like this, I think back to the circumstances leading up to the tragic end of my brother’s life …and it’s all just a waste – a big waste of life. Very sad. I feel the pain for the family and the friends that are left to deal with this tragedy. I get it and it is very hard and time really does NOT heal all wounds.
Posted October 23, 2007 04:44 PM
No, I don't feel any safer because they define it as TARGETED . . . look what has happened to two innocent bystanders that were not targeted ... you can be in the line of fire and those who are doing the crime don't care.
Posted October 23, 2007 04:34 PM
the only thng this admission means is that the police knew who some of these people were, knew they were criminals, but didn't have the goods to put them away before these killings took place. either these crooks are smarter than the police (not a good sign) or the police are either a) understaffed and overworked (years of budget cuts to achieve a federal surplus Harper now loves so much wasn't free and inept police depts are a by-product) or b) they are lazy and not doing their jobs very well (an even worse sign).
prohibition didn't work with booze and it isn't working with other drugs any better. decriminalise the drug trade, full stop. take the big profits out of this one area of crime and put the police to work finding murderers, child molesters and corrupt government and business people.
Posted October 23, 2007 04:15 PM
Alfred Lew,
So do you really think Capital Punishment will stop these people from killing? If that was the case, then the USA would be a very safe place, especially Texas. I'll admit I've not seen any research on this, but I'm willing to bet that I would have a better chance being killed in random violence in Dallas/Houston than I would in Vancouver (with no death penalty)
Posted October 23, 2007 03:54 PM
I think that "not-random" generally makes us all feel at ease.
Because of the majority of us that live life following the rules and laws, we feel less compassion for those that live outside the law. "You play with Fire, you may be burned"... remember hearing that one when you were growing up..??
Posted October 23, 2007 03:53 PM
Several years ago my son was shot in the knee during a home invasion. The great brains who perpetrated this outrage thought my son and his roommate lived in a grow-op. They had the wrong house address, were on the wrong street and had confused Vancouver's East-West divide. The home they invaded could have been literally anyone's home.
The way the Vancouver Police Department initially treated this crime was shocking. Although my son and his roommate were decent kids in their twenties with good jobs and responsible lives and who were what is termed "Unknown to the Police", they were treated at first as if the only reason they were "Unknown to the Police" was because they just hadn't been caught yet. My son and his roommate were lucky they weren't just shot "gangland style" as collateral damage like the two innocent victims in Friday's shooting.
I don't know what might be the ultimate solution to all the drug fueled gun and gang violence occurring in the Lower Mainland right now but legalization would go a long way toward removing the fuel -- the obscene amount of money to be made -- for this violence. I take no comfort in the fact the police tell us these killings were "targeted" or "not random". People shouldn't kid themselves; anyone could innocently blunder into a situation like this at any time. The fact it's "not random" or "targeted" doesn't make you any less dead or injured.
Posted October 23, 2007 03:47 PM
The Province of BC have the unenviable reputation of having the softest, most liberal criminal loving judges in the entire country. It's time to hold all judges in this country accountable for their decisions. If anyone was paying attention during the past ten years they would realize that some of the worst Case Law came from BC.
Posted October 23, 2007 03:44 PM
This is why I have changed my stance from being against the death penealty to now being a fervent supporter of it. How many times have these scum been arrested in the past, had their hands slapped,, then returned to society? I bet several. Now, two innocent people are dead. Drug dealers and child abusers should receive death on the first offence, no second chances. These kind of people should be removed instantly from the gene pool.
Posted October 23, 2007 03:43 PM
I never fail to feel a little pleased whenever I hear of a criminal dying in a "targeted" shooting. It means there are less criminals on the street. Indeed, it means less criminals period, as their deaths are a better system for getting rid of them permanently than Canadian justice could ever hope to be. Yes, there is the chance now that you could be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but then, so were many people during World War II, so this is nothing new. Regardless of circumstances, a dead criminal is always a victory.
Posted October 23, 2007 03:30 PM
Wow! It's amazing how many buy into the media frenzy. The chances of you being a victim of random violence is so small that you should think about it the same percentage of your time here on earth - less than a day at best for most residents. Check the stats and turn off the local news as their prime motivation is to instill emotion - fear being the most persuasive in garnering attention.
WAKE UP!! It's a sad event not worthy of your fear and general irrational behavior which is truly what makes YOU more dangerous to live anywhere near.
Posted October 23, 2007 03:29 PM
I have no problem with non-random, gang related shootings. Society is usually better off after the shootings considering our justice system is ineffective at protecting other than the culprits. It is unfortunate innocent people do get caught up in it on occassion. The main cure for our system would be the right to cfharge the judiciary with obstruction of justice when a person becomes a repeat offender after being released by the judiciary.
Posted October 23, 2007 03:27 PM
whether is random or not random, the person(s) who open fire knew
that even if they get caught, the Canadian justice system will not
let them die as afterall there is no capital punishment here in the
name of democracy and human rights
it's time Canadian should get very tough on its justice system.
Posted October 23, 2007 03:21 PM
Vote!! Pay attention to your party of choice. What is their platform vis a vis punishment for this type of crime.Organized crime is rampant in our country.Whether it be biker,oriental,mafia etc. If you don't vote, you have no right to whine.The families of the 2 innocent victims in this slaughter will live with this tragedy forever. The other "deceased" may, or may not have been the authors of their own misfortune."IF" the others were involved in illegal activities,good riddance.The perpetrators will get their reward also at some point in time.
Posted October 23, 2007 03:13 PM
"..........."Not random" or "targeted" means there is no way I - or anyone I associate with - would be victimized. There is a price to the easy gains a criminal lifestyle affords. They paid it."
WHAT ??? What is it about TWO INNOCENT VICTIMS that you are missing?
ANOTHER example of drug gangs "that don't affect ME" in this "Stand Back Society". When will the population that insists on ignoring the druggie culture wake up and STAND against it?
Posted October 23, 2007 02:58 PM
Using the word "targeted" is just a way of brusing things under the carpet for the olympics, so people don't panic. Remember, just a couple of years ago the VPD talked about not releasing crime stats, so people would stop worrying about crime.
But please keep in mind, it is not police that are soft on crime. It is the judges who are soft on criminals, and until Canadians demand real time for real crime silly things like using the word "targeted" will continue.
Posted October 23, 2007 02:58 PM
4 less scum to worry about in surrey
Posted October 23, 2007 02:41 PM
No, it doesn't make me feel any better. It used to be that the underground economy took care of itself, and sorted out their own issues away from the limelight. There was a joke(I guess) that if the Hells Angels invited you to a party and it was fairly remote you either were getting promoted or killed. Now they shoot at each other in broad daylight to settle differences.
The leaders of organized crime are young (about 25-35 from what I understand), ruthless and greedy. Is this a result of prohibition? Perhaps, but I think it is a better thermometer to the tone of the rest of society.
No one is accountable, heck look at the police do coverups, for whatever the reason. Look at Conrad Black, Enron, Adscam - I could just go on.
Greed and lack of compassion for fellow man is rampant in the media. It is revealed more and more what the true face of ambition looks like. If that happens "above board" so to speak, what does the underground economy look like? Probably not pretty.
Heck, look on any comment board, people don't treat each other well. They do everything to de-humanize each other. Which is how gangs influence their soldiers. I doubt they even consider their victims people. It is all about the drug debts, and making money. Anyway anyhow. Just like with our corporations, but they don't pay tax.
So, no, having an entire section of society actively disconnected from others or the consequences of their actions doesn't make me feel good, even if I hit it lucky and wasn't in the wrong place.
Posted October 23, 2007 02:37 PM
I do not take comfort in any aspect of violence. I am involved because it exists in my society. Having friends who are defense lawyers, crown prosecutors and judges I understand that these types of crimes are normally perpetrated for "personal reasons" (relationships between people with a propensity towards violence in thought, word and deed) which means most of us are spared direct involvement as 95% of our society is, in reality, non-violent. That being said I believe that we have an increase in young people involved in violent crime in the past 20 years. The interesting question is to ask ourselves as a society what the factors are that contribute to this outcome. It is too easy to blame the perpetrators instead of reflect ourselves on our macro contribution. There could be a tendency towards violence as we further stratify economically and also, I think, as we relax cultural influence from the United States, undoubtably the most violent first world nation. While the United States is similar enough to be considered a brother/sister nation, we would do well to remember that it is also a violent sibling and be careful not to emulate it too much.
Posted October 23, 2007 02:36 PM
I don't see how it being "random" or "not random" rates so highly in terms of what people want to know about a crime like this. They repeated the phrase ad nauseam, as if if it was supposed to be comforting. But really, would you be happier knowing this was A) some one-off rendom thing that won't be done again, or B) that even though it was a targetted killing within the criminal world the perpetrator(s) are still out there and willing to kill again (including uninvolved witnesses)?
Posted October 23, 2007 02:32 PM
I usually do take comfort in statements indicating a crime was "gang-related" despite the fact these shootings can and have included innocent by-standers. Random shootings scare me more as I don't know why people are being targeted. Its the unknown that scares us. For some reason a few months ago the Calgary Police were hesitant about releasing information linking a few homicides to gang activity. I felt more comfortable when this came out.
And to George from Nanaimo, I agree with your opinions on prohibition (of some not all drugs) but don't think its appropriate to relate prohibition to this shooting.
Posted October 23, 2007 02:01 PM
Of course I take comfort in that... People who get into that lifestyle know the potential consequences. I have very little sympathy for them, I feel for their families, but not them as victims. You live by the sword you die by the sword. These guys should have stayed away from playing with fire, because one way or another, ultimately you will get burned.
Posted October 23, 2007 01:53 PM
It is good to know the attach is 'targeted' but I am still thinking what we should do to reduce the crime. Many innocent people have been affected by the 'un-targeted' crime. Most of those serious cases are related to gang or drug but we still see it is 'lawfully' allowed to use drug.
Do we have some plan to reduce the cases like that? Please do not say we do not have a way. We need to and can find how to solve the root cause of gang or drug issues if you really want to do it.
I think I am going to talk with my MP for it.
Posted October 23, 2007 01:47 PM
No comfort at all. These criminals are well armed and getting more weapons everyday. Our Border Guards are little more than tax collectors. Guns are pouring into Canada and into the hands of gang members who obviously don't hesitate to use them. Innocent people get caught in the crossfire everyday, whether they are "targeted" or not. Gang activity must become the number one priority of all law enforcement operations in Canada right now.
Posted October 23, 2007 01:47 PM
Of course I take comfort in the knowledge that avoiding illegal activity greatly reduces my chances of being murdered or assaulted. Stay away from crime and criminals, and from all illegal activity, and you stand a pretty good chance of living a decent life. I'm kind of surprised that this is news, or even grounds for debate. As a child I also learned that touching fire caused me to feel pain. I've avoided touching fire since.
And to the moron who stated that these people are the victims of prohibition: there are no soft or hard drugs, just illegal drugs. They're illegal for a reason. We can thank our liberal media for softening the view on illegal drugs and contributing to crime and the criminalization of our youth.
In a perfect world all the gun criminals would shoot each other, the car thieves would crash into each other head-on and kill each other, and the drug dealers would all overdose and die. What a wonderful world that would be!
Posted October 23, 2007 01:43 PM
I take very little comfort. Taking all killing as a whole, I suspect that a very low percentage of them are strictly random in nature. Most seem to be where the victim knows the or at least has dealings with the organization that order such killings.
We know that the most chilling types of murder are those unexpectedly committed by those who are apparently non-predisposed to such behavior. For example the girl who shot up her schoolyard because she didn’t like Mondays. When the Police say “Well, at least it wasn’t one of those”, It means to me that it falls under the category of the other 99 percent.
Small Editorial: In Canada, drug policy is driven by American political interests. Never doubt that. Until we develop the guts as a nation to bring some home-grown sanity to our laws we will see more such gangland escapades.
Posted October 23, 2007 01:27 PM
The owner IS cooperating. The tenant in that suite is the one who has refused to talk to police and likely skipped town. So what is truly sad, is your lack of knowledge on the subject, so why not just leave the internet forever instead of speculating on something you obviously have no clue about.
Posted October 23, 2007 01:23 PM
Absolutley not. Just look back at shootings that have occurred in the Vancouver area over the past several years--many "uninvolved" people have lost their lives, there has been lots of "collateral damage," there will be more. YOU ARE NOT SAFE. Rise up, people--demand solutions, be they legalization, gun laws, enforcement levels, and/or appropriate punishment.
Posted October 23, 2007 01:16 PM
Murder is murder however it is carried out. It affects us all. What disturbs me is that killing people is becoming as an option for rage or reaction to situations.
To George in Nanaimo - "These unfortunate people were the victims of Prohibition,plain and simple." O boy! Let's make all drugs legal and see where society ends up. Cocaine, crack, crystal meth... uh hum! Wow - if these became mainstream commodities - there would be more victims than we have with prohibition. The real sad thing is that the owner of the apartment where this happened is not cooperating with the investigation. Prohibition - right!
Posted October 23, 2007 01:02 PM
Hey JPK, how about telling that line to the family of Jane Creba, the 15 year old girl gunned down on Younge St on Boxing Day. I'm sure they'll be comforted in knowing that no one associated with crime will be hurt unless targetted. What if your neighbor was selling dope and his competitor got his address mixed up with yours (because people never write down the wrong address), and you ended up being put in the wrong place at the wrong time. But, I guess that will never happen as only bad things happen to bad people and good things to good people, right?
Posted October 23, 2007 01:02 PM
I take great comfort in that statement simply because as a law abiding citizen my odds of being affected by such a crime are greatly decreased.
Posted October 23, 2007 12:59 PM
For one, the question is leading, stirring up emotions that on second thought are not realistic.
There are people killed randomly: by traffic accidents, by bad construction and maintenance of bridges, by RCMP officers who don't speak your language, and by 'being in the wrong place at the wrong time'. If there appears any structural pattern in these random killings, we have a society which will react properly.
Gangs do their own business, and keep the killing to members, in principle. Gruesome as it is, their activities are 99% underground.
We worry about the 1% that hits others. What about the random attacks in parks on elderly people and gays, etc., that Vancouver has seen in the past two years or so? It is more likely you will be a victim of these random attacks than being caught in the crossfire of two gangs.
Posted October 23, 2007 12:59 PM
I don't take any comfort in the police, PERIOD.
It seems they are always playing clean-up instead of catching the bad guys. They're pretty good at busting ordinary Canadians for smoking pot, but when it comes to gangs and organized crime in general, they're always putting on a display of force when it's too late and the damage has already been done.
Posted October 23, 2007 12:47 PM
While I agree that the use of these terms do help me feel more at ease, in this case there are 2 innocent people who are dead because they just happened to be there. Just shows that even "targetted" or "not random" attacks can take innocent people down with them too. That doesn't make me feel comforted.
Posted October 23, 2007 12:44 PM
It's impossible to take comfort anytime a citizen is killed by another citizen, period. It is a sad commentary on society when one takes comfort that they won't be targeted by a totally premeditated murder. We’re not living in the Wild West, or Baghdad for that matter, we live in a land of laws.
How many times have we heard of innocent bystanders being killed by being in the wrong place at the wrong time? Anyone can be the next victim. It's time that government wake up and implement stronger penalties for crime!!!
Posted October 23, 2007 12:44 PM
I don't take much comfort in that.
These unfortunate people were the victims of Prohibition,
plain and simple.
It only took our society a few years to figure out that
alcohol prohibition was a bad idea, it's a shame that
many decades later, we still haven't quite figured out that
prohibition of some other drugs is also just as bad an idea.
Too bad the best idea the government can come up with is
more prohibition, more of the same old failures while people
continue to pay with their lives, not just the ones involved
in the business, but innocent bystanders as in this case.
Posted October 23, 2007 12:35 PM
Unfortunately, "Not random" or "targetted" involved two innocent bystanders claiming to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. So, who's to say that it won't be any one of us, not involved in any criminal activity, next time something like this happens?
I take no comfort in it, because it's a false sense of security, especially when it's happening close, near, or around your place of dwelling.
Posted October 23, 2007 12:34 PM
No. Just because the Police use the term "not random", "targetted" or "known to police" doesn't mean that I might not suffer that other police phrase "collateral damage". Look no further than Messrs. Schellenberg or Mohan, or the people in the recent Vancouver restaurant shootings.
Posted October 23, 2007 12:34 PM
Yes. "Not random" or "targetted" means there is no way I - or anyone I associate with - would be victimized. There is a price to the easy gains a criminal lifestyle affords. They paid it.
Posted October 23, 2007 12:19 PM